How Much Would an American-Made Toaster Actually Cost?
A lot more than Oren Cass and J.D. Vance want you to think, and Americans wouldn't like the tradeoffs necessary.

If you happen to be in need of a new toaster, you could pop over to Home Depot later today and pick one up for less than $30—or less than $50 if you're looking for a fancier design or the ability to brown more than two slices of bread at once.
That's great. Cheap, abundant kitchen appliances are one of the truly wonderful things about modern America, and they are possible because we can take advantage of global trade and the efficiencies made possible by outsourcing low-level manufacturing. As a result, most Americans can afford to replace their toaster without a second thought, since $30 is roughly the average wage for an hour of work right now.
Writing in The Atlantic, however, Oren Cass argues that the country would be better off if those markets were a little less efficient. What if a new toaster that was made in America costs $32 instead of $30 for a foreign-made one, he argues. Wouldn't that make workers better off?
He's wrong and that $32 toaster won't exist, but it's worth walking through the argument to see why.
Start with that $30 toaster made overseas. Now, slap a 10 percent tariff on it, so that consumers must pay $33 to buy it. That means the Treasury Department collects $3 in new revenue, but it also means that domestic toaster-makers can sell their wares for $32 and undercut the imported models.
If tariffs cause consumers to switch to those domestic-made toasters, Cass acknowledges that consumers are out two bucks. This is what economists call a "deadweight loss" and it's one of the major reasons why tariffs harm the economy.
Cass, the head of American Compass and a prominent proponent of the conservative moment's shift toward central planning, wants to focus on the benefits of those higher prices. "The share of the $32 purchase price that would once have gone to a Chinese factory and its workers now goes to an American firm and its workers instead," he argues. "It pays American taxes and supports American families in American communities."
All of that for just $2 more. Wow, what a great deal!
Unfortunately, Cass is wrong about the math and wrong about the underlying economics.
Tariffs can, of course, be used to make foreign-produced goods (like toasters) more expensive. That doesn't mean that manufacturing firms will radically redesign their supply chains to produce more toasters in the United States. And if they did do that, those new toasters wouldn't cost a mere $2 more than the ones available at Home Depot now. Cass is making several wild logical leaps here, and offers no evidence to substantiate this claim of a hypothetical $32 American-made toaster.
How much would that toaster actually cost? More than $250.
That's the figure offered by Ed Gresser, the former assistant U.S. Trade representative who is currently the director of trade and global markets for the Progressive Policy Institute (PPI). Unlike Cass, Gresser understands how tariffs and trade work.
More importantly, he also shows his work. Because there are no kitchen appliance manufacturers making toasters in the United States right now, he examined the prices of toasters made in other wealthy, western countries like Italy, Japan, and the United Kingdom. At the lowest end, those toasters cost the equivalent of $250, and some would be significantly pricier.
"In sum, 'developed' high-income countries do make home toasters. But they are profitable at prices about ten times those you'd find in mainstream U.S. retail outlets.," writes Gresser. "So to achieve Vance's apparent goal, mainstream toaster prices would probably have to rise to Neiman Marcus levels, say $300 each."
Gresser goes on to discuss how those changes would impact family budgets, employment, and other aspects of the economy. None of it is good.
(The rest of Cass' essay in The Atlantic is riddled with similar gaps in logic and economic fallacies—and don't miss Dominic Pino's takedown at National Review if you want a more thorough debunking of it all.)
But rather than dwell on the math, it might be more important to ask whether America and its workers would be better off in an economy where a basic kitchen appliance was suddenly 10 times more expensive. Clearly, Cass believes this would be an improvement—just think of all the extra money flowing to those American firms that pay American taxes and employ American workers and so on!
But in that alternate reality, there would be far more toaster-buying consumers than toaster-making workers—and the consumers would be far worse off. Indeed, the workers would be worse off too, since they become consumers as soon as they clock out for the day.
In reality, this hypothetical would never materialize because few people would choose to buy those $300 toasters when a $30 toaster made somewhere else does the job just as well. As I covered in this month's issue of Reason (the article is still paywalled if you're not a subscriber), most consumers have little appetite for higher-priced goods even if those higher prices will help to support American manufacturing:
"Earlier this year, the Cato Institute polled consumers to ask if they'd support a tariff on imported blue jeans in order to increase blue jeans manufacturing jobs in America. About 62 percent of respondents said yes.
But hold on. When told that the tariff would make jeans just $10 more expensive at the store, support for that policy flipped: Now, 66 percent opposed it. And if the tariff would make jeans $25 more expensive, an overwhelming 88 percent said no."
Now, imagine what would happen if you told them that the price of jeans would have to increase tenfold, as would be the case with toasters. I suspect that Cass—and Sen. J.D. Vance (R–Ohio), who is making a version of this same argument on the campaign trail—is relying on faulty math and bad economics because he's aware that the real numbers would be unpalatable to just about everyone.
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So instead of decrying the regulatory costs born on American industry by government… you tell use to celebrate cheap foreign labor using the same arguments that supported slavery?
In fact he once again ignores the entire regulatory structure causing higher costs, much higher than the 2 dollars he complains about.
Also ignores the costs of the domestic industry lost due to theft of those foreign competitors raising costs domestically.
Eric Boehm is not a well read or serious Economist.
Economics done well does not rely on ignoring all facts except the one you want to push a narrative on.
So strange that a publication dedicated to free minds and free markets doesn’t like tariffs. Makes no sense at all. It must mean that they like regulations. Now it makes sense.
So strange that a publication dedicated to free minds and free markets ONLY cares about foreign-trade freedom.
There. Fixed that for you.
Stop filling dumps with cheap Chinese toasters, all their plastics and raw materials, make toasters that last at least 30 years, are repairable, and then they’ll be worth what they cost.
Have some pride of manufacturing.
Those toasters are available to Americans already. Are you being willfully ignorant or just failing in reading comprehension? Toaster repairmen went the way of the dinosaurs long ago because no one wanted expensive repairable toasters any more. Why have a well-made expensive toaster that you have to pay a repairmen to repair every few years when you can have a cheap one and buy a new one every few years for less than the expensive one? Jeesh, no wonder America is over-regulated and politically insane!
There’s your vote for polluting the earth, wasting resources and energy filling our landfills with cheap products that last a couple of years and can’t be repaired.
For what?
It’s because of shortsighted people like you, dinosaurs, who’s greed puts everyone and our civilization at risk that we need regulations, like we need a constitution, to keep our civilization on track.
The toaster came from the ground and in the ground it returns.
Or ... they get sent directly to the steel recycling center.
...because ironically the most 'wasted resources' happens with a repairman spending countless hours trying to hand-build a new toaster piece-by-piece when automation in the steel industry could just drop out a new one in 1/100th of the time and resources.
If repairable was feasible it would be part of the free-market.
So strange that a poster dedicated to
trollingfighting tariffs doesn't think that overregulation is the root problem leading to tariffs.Overregulation doesn't lead.to tariffs. Tariffs are a choice, not an inevitable result of ... well, anything.
Trump keeps pointing out how much revenue the government receives from tariffs. But he wants you to ignore the fact that that revenue will be covered, pretty much to the dollar, by consumers who have to pay more money for the same product.
What do you call it when the government gets revenue and consumers pay for it? A tax. And what do you call it when the same product costs more today than it did yesterday? Inflation.
Call me crazy, but I think higher taxes on the middle class and unnecessary inflation are bad things.
Even worse? Because government is addicted to spending and politicians don't want to be accused of recklessly driving up the debt and deficit (even though they are eager to do it if they think they can pin the blame elsewhere), once instituted those tariffs will remain.
There is literally no net cost/benefit upside for American citizens from tariffs. If you pretend that they happen in a vacuum you can claim they made the government money. But nothing happens in a vacuum and the tradeoffs are damaging to average Americans. Much more damaging than the revenue increase to the government could ever justify.
Dude, you're pissing in the wind. No matter how many times you explain it to these country trumpkins, they will never admit that tariffs are taxing your own people.
The biggest display of a mental division between a Tax & a Tariff around here is by those who keep complaining that no-one understands they’re just a Tax.
Yes; They’re just a Tax specifically on imports. And in “Just a Tax” world Domestic-Trade-Tax accounts for 99% of all taxes while Foreign-Trade-Tax accounts for 1%. Do you think that disparity in Tax Rate doesn’t hurt the Domestic-Trade market?
Of course you don’t; because your arguments demonstrate the biggest mental division between a Tax and a Tariff of anyone else here. Specifically called Self-Projecting.
A tariff is a tax. Period. Trumpies are too stupid to understand that.
Then state the situation like it is and stop dividing the two.
“Importers are so special they should be Tax-exempt.” /s
Not continue to try and BS about Tariffs are a Tax so… “Oh. So BAD” while completely playing stupid-ignorant to Domestic Taxes. If Taxes are bad; Domestic is 99% MORE-BAD than Tariffs.
Trumpies are too smart to buy that kind of complete ignorant BS.
Nelson stop samefagging.
fuck off socko
Tax relief for domestic producers will offset some of the cost of tariffs.
So double down on terrible economic policies by adding supply-side nonsense to tariff bullshit? Is there a failed economic policy out there that you don't support?
Not just double-down; 99-TIMES the failed economic policy applies to ... Domestic supply-side in contrast to 1% Foreign supply-side.
Would that be a "toaster poster?"
All your team has is collectivism and bitching.
You don’t understand. People who talk about tariffs are ignoring regulations. They’re ignoring regulations! THEY’RE IGNORING REGULATIONS!
THEY’RE!
IGNORING!
REGULATIONS!
That means they’re shitty economists and shitty people with shitty motivations. How do we know?
THEY’RE IGNORING REGULATIONS!!!!!!!111!!!!1
...and Domestic Taxes and Bankruptcy.
Tariffs are indirect taxes on American consumers. Bankruptcies are a sign of a healthy capitalist economy.
An economy without bankruptcies requires government creating a market from the top down, because inferior and inefficient companies SHOULD go out of business. Look at Radio Shack, Sears, and Lehman Brothers. That's a good thing. That's capitalism.
A Bankrupt Nation isn't the results of capitalism (US Debt).
I probably should've said that a little clearer.
Hey Sarckles, does overregulation create the demand for tariffs or do they just formulate ex nihilo from the minds of their proposers?
Then why not just fix the "overregulation"? Trump was president for four years with control of congress for at least part of it. Why didn't they fix the "root cause" when they could and avoid tarrifs? Because, they are as morally corrupt and intellectually bankrupt as progtards.
LOL... Not as-if he didn't try. Hut-Hum: De-Regulation Committee and Tax-Cuts.
Only to have it all washed away by the incoming [D]-trifecta who #1 reason for hating Trump was "Trump hollowed out [our] public institutions." - right out of the DNC Platform.
True, Trump did do a lot to reduce regulations and he should be applauded for that effort. Yet they weren't enough to prevent him from using the hammer of tarrifs. Maybe the problem isn't "over-regulation" but cost of labor. How can any company in the US that must pay it's workers $15+/hr compete with a comparable Chinese company that pays it's workers $3/hr or less? No amount of de-regulation will prevent that. I suppose the biggest question I have regarding tarrifs is where does the money from the tarrif go? It should go to subsidizing the industries they are implemented to protect. I have a feeling the feds pocket the money and are just happy with causing the price of foreign goods to go up. That seems like a total grift in that the government benefits the most, the companies that are being protected benefit (less than the government) from artificially hiking the cost of foreign products, and the plebs buying the toaster get fucked. I think preventing states and cities from over-riding the national minimum-wage would do more to help us compete. All the progs that have a hard-on for a "living wage" would bitch, but fuck em. As many people where I live are finding out, a "living wage" soon reveals the true minimum wage of $0/hr. Unfortunately, their mental incompetence shudders local businesses and ruins cities. Personally, I'm happy buying a cheap toaster from China.
"How can any company in the US that must pay it’s workers $15+/hr compete with a comparable Chinese company that pays it’s workers $3/hr or less? No amount of de-regulation will prevent that."
This is the most important and inflexible fact: American labor costs too much because the wages necessary for basic survival is so much higher than in other countries that no American worker would (actually could) accept less.
With better wages available elsewhere (and more jobs looking for workers than vice versa), the floor for American labor costs is multiples higher than even in China, never mind Vietnam or Indonesia.
"I suppose the biggest question I have regarding tarrifs is where does the money from the tarrif go?"
The Treasury. Tariffs are a revenue source for the government, which is why they are so hard to get rid of. Once you waste that new money on something like supply-side tax cuts, you can't get it back until the corporate welfare sunsets.
"It should go to subsidizing the industries they are implemented to protect."
That won't change the price to consumers by a penny. The market sets prices, not the profit margin of the company. That would be just more corporate welfare, transferring government money to corporate shareholders and investors while consumers pick up the tab through higher prices.
"are just happy with causing the price of foreign goods to go up"
It isn't just the price of foreign goods that goes up, it's the price of domestically-produced goods as well. Everything is more expensive as a direct result of tariffs.
"That seems like a total grift in that the government benefits the most, the companies that are being protected benefit (less than the government) from artificially hiking the cost of foreign products, and the plebs buying the toaster get fucked."
Exactly. That's a very succinct explanation of why tariffs are a terrible idea.
"I think preventing states and cities from over-riding the national minimum-wage would do more to help us compete."
Besides the federalism-based argument against that, minimum wage laws always lag behind wage gains because they are so opposed by business groups. By the time a law gets passed raising the minimum wage over time, capitalism has almost always raised the prevailing wage above that artificial wage floor. Minimum wage laws are a bad idea, but they take so long to implement that they are a bad idea with virtually no impact on wages. Getting rid of them wouldn't change much, if anything.
"All the progs that have a hard-on for a “living wage” would bitch, but fuck em"
Exactly. There are jobs out there that will earn a living wage. Flipping burgers isn't one of them, nor should it be.
"As many people where I live are finding out, a “living wage” soon reveals the true minimum wage of $0/hr.".
Where do you live that the job market is bad? I can't drive around the corner without running into "now hiring" signs. It's been that way for so long that one near my house is so sun-bleached that you can't read it any more. It's been up for three years straight.
My friend owns a garage door company and he is constantly desperate for workers and he's offering $25 to start, $30 after 90 days. That's over $60k/year (no overtime) to install garage doors. Even in economically successful areas like the Northeast, that's good money for labor that requires minimal skills.
"Personally, I’m happy buying a cheap toaster from China."
Same. Trade is most efficient when a country builds what it is best at building and trades for the things that other countries are better at. Most countries are better ar manufacturing things cheaply because they have an economy that allows low- and no-skill manufacturing jobs to support a family. The US is too prosperous for that to ever happen. If it does ever happen, it'll be because the US is no longer a prosperous and powerful nation.
Thanks for the reply and I agree with your point of view. I live in a town that passed a "living wage" law that has increased the minimum wage to nearly $18/hr, where the state minimum wage is just under $15/hr. The effect this has had on the restaurant business (or any business that has high labor costs) has been devastating. Most of the "progressive" geniuses that thought this was a good idea are now learning that businesses with profit margins in the single digits have no choice but raise the cost of their goods in direct proportion to the increased labor costs. This affects all bars, restaurants grocery stores, retail stores etc. The result is my town is simply becoming a place only rich assholes can afford to live in. It seems to me that letting the citizens of a town determine the wage rates is a terrible idea and only serves to ratchet up the cost of everything (maybe it could be called inflation). So, I agree that in a perfect world, the minimum wage should follow the market determined wage but sometimes foolish people push it too hard. Seems to me disparities in labor costs interstate and intrastate lead to higher costs for everyone. Once they are ratcheted up, there is no mechanism for them to go down again.
"It should go to subsidizing the industries they are implemented to protect."
The protection itself is the worst kind of subsidy. Industries that need protection need to die.
Trump himself wants more regulation. He wants to tell companies where they can produce things. And in another area, Trump loves the NIMBY zoning laws all over the country like the ones that restrict the competition that his own properties face -- they result in windfall increases in values for property owners like himself.
All you team has is collectivism and STEALING.
What; did you think all the THEFT wasn't going to cause some bitching?
Taxes aren't theft.
They are a collection of money under Gov-Gun threat.
The part of that collection that is UN-Constitutional (ILLEGAL) is most certainly ‘armed’ THEFT and a crime against the Supreme Law of the Land.
In the sense of wealth distribution it’s flat out ‘armed’ THEFT of a [WE] mob of criminals.
Do tell; how’s it any different?
Just because you name your gang ‘democratic’ makes it all legal and not a complete VIOLATION of Individual human rights, property rights and justice?
Fuck off you fat bitch. All your team has is Marxism, squalor and pedophilia.
They don’t even have much Marxism anymore as they’re no longer bothering to formulate excuses for their grift.
It’s a great delivery system for their corruption. Leftist collectivism is ideal for that. They always get moronic drones like Jeffy, Pluggo, etc. to buy into the delusion that they will have a seat at the table. When in reality they’ll likely be exterminated by the very people they help push into power.
No one has yet explained to me why Americans are apparently so bad at making toasters, but the Chinese simply have this innate skill at making them. Point out the gene sequencing where this happens please.
Nor has it been explained to me that how, once made, the costs of shipping these toasters halfway around the world doesn't overwhelm the costs of shipping them from far closer.
It's almost as if at every step of the process, both governments have stepped in and passed laws and regulations ensuring this very outcome, while eliminating every other. And its almost as if they've done so because it greatly benefits themselves personally far more than any of the workers making the toasters or the people buying the toasters.
But see, you’re thinking beyond just assuming the current global distribution is correct simply by default and think beyond that assumption.
Unlike Jeff and sarc who don’t think through their beliefs but start from the assumption that there is no bad set of current regulatory or costs in current markets and justify Chinese market manipulations and theft to prove they should benefit from those costs born on producers domestically.
I mean Biden Harris added an estimated 1.7T in regulatory costs and retards like Boehm still complain about the estimated 50B in tariffs as the problem.
Awesome strawman! Where'd you get the overalls?
I find it funny you keep replying to me after weeks of you crying about me responding to you.
I'll increment the strawman misuse counter.
Plus, no muting.
Sqrsly and misconstrueman is my current list.
Sarc unshunned Jesse.
When you stop making up lies about what people think and arguing against those lies, I'll quit complimenting your strawmen. Deal?
When you stop being a drunken, lying, leftist piece of shit, we will stop treating you like a drunken, lying, leftist piece of shit.
Now run away and hide you cowardly shitweasel.
"I’ll quit complimenting your strawmen"
Lol, every day this fucking tool just keeps getting more retarded. He can't identify an actual strawman from an inch away, and seems to think that "strawman" and "ad hominem" mean, "what people are doing when they tell me to go fuck myself".
We should start a betting pool on when his liver will finally give out.
No one has yet explained to me why Americans are apparently so bad at making toasters, but the Chinese simply have this innate skill at making them. Point out the gene sequencing where this happens please.
Easy peazy. Chinese squinty eyes are superior at looking down toaster slots which greatly improves their efficiency during manufacturing. Turn those toasters longways on the assembly line and suddenly Americans have the advantage.
Well that and higher union, healthcare and pension costs.
"how, once made, the costs of shipping these toasters halfway around the world doesn’t overwhelm the costs"
Well said 'shadydave' +10000000000000000
Here's a thought; maybe it's the foreign-trade tax-exemption (Zero Tariffs) doing it. Why; that would ?almost? make sense.
Let me sum up, bohem is an evil cancer
+1 This is implicit in, if not the dishonest intent of, the analysis.
there are no kitchen appliance manufacturers making toasters in the United States right now, he examined the prices of toasters made in other wealthy, western countries like Italy, Japan, and the United Kingdom. At the lowest end, those toasters cost the equivalent of $250, and some would be significantly pricier.
There are no consumer-grade toaster manufacturers in the industrialized West, only boutique, so let’s just assume it would cost that to produce consumer-grade toasters in the West. It's like assuming that, since there are no women's underwear manufacturers in any given state, nobody in the state could make a women's underwear cheaper than Fendi.
The prior analysis even demonstrates the fallacy. In a market of $30-50 toasters, the $32-33 price differential would be critical utterly destroying the foreign toaster market in favor of the domestic, even though apparently the market will bear $50 and even $250 toasters.
But, of course and once again, these people don’ care about how markets actually work or an honest and enlightening conversation. They care about lying to you in order to get or make you bend the knee.
However much you hate them, it’s not enough.
I agree completely. Our business’s insurance has quadrupled this year even though we’ve never made a claim against it, and all of the loopholes we have to junk through (that you KNOW they aren’t doing in foreign countries) it is driving us out of the market!
And that Regulatory Industrial Complex has constantly rigged the marketplace in favor of foreign imports. Tariffs on imports and tax relief on local producers may be necessary to balance the equation.
There's no debating that regulatory costs (including, in many cases, minimum wage laws) are a major culprit as to why most domestic industries can't compete with imported goods and why military procurement (which often includes "buy american" requirements long predating Joe Biden) spends so much more than the price of COTS equivalents for many items.
However, one of the main things that's being "exploited" by offshoring labor-intensive manufacturing in many industries is the overall lower cost of living in many "developing" countries. A lot of textile manufacturing is actually leaving China and re-locating to places like Philippines or Bangladesh because the development in China has raised the wage base to be uncompetitive for many of the lower-skilled industries.
Consider an air fryer toaster oven instead. Still makes toast and does much more!
Once you start using one, you’ll want to toast the folks that made it possible.
I don't know. I'm a crusty old guy and I'm tight with my dough.
For those that just loaf around, if they like their toaster they can keep their toaster. - said with a rye smile
You got a rise out of that one, but it was pretty crumby.
Don’t want him to use any more of his bread if he doesn’t want to. Though I still think the introduction of the air fryer toaster oven will eventually have spelt the end of the conventional toaster.
Musical act I'm going to go see next week named their latest album "Bread".
Yeah it was well done. Apparently Chumby's air fryer goes up to eleven.
It goes up to 450 deg F. Even get to air fry-roast potatoes in there. Whatever you knead it to do, it does.
So you don’t have a lot of bread?
This would put tariffs in a jam.
Spread the misery.
Would it cost $300? Doubt it. I can see why a progressive think tank might think so once you add in livable wages, very generous fringe, and an HR department to handle the regulations.
I just want one that repeatedly works to the same amount of toast each time. The first- warmup setup is just a guess. Then I have to dial back the time setting to prevent over darkening of the second toast because the warmed up toaster does not react the same as the cold toaster. I once went looking on the internet when my toaster died, thinking I would find the magical $200 appliance that would perfectly toast bread. Nope. Settled on Walmart $20 unit that has all the standard toaster flaws.
Cheap, abundant kitchen appliances are one of the truly wonderful things about modern America
Considering they all come from China and can be bought anywhere in the world, I don't see why 'modern America' is relevant here.
How would you describe a person who wants the government to direct you economic decisions in a manner that is most beneficial to "society at large"?
How would you describe a person who wants the government to direct you economic decisions in a manner that is most beneficial to “society at large”?
The word "cunt" immediately comes to mind.
Reminds me of when the Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) was passed. I agree, those supporting that were cunts.
There is a potus candidate currently pushing price controls. I also agree that Kamala is a cunt.
Yes, Democrats are cunts too.
As are their HO2 carriers.
I have zero respect for dihydrogen monoxide carriers for either side of the duopoly coin.
Mike Laursen had assured us that it is hydrogen dioxide.
Mike was all wet.
When he was stalking ENB on Mastodon, she wasn’t.
Given his knowledge of the periodic table. Perhaps he drank sulphuric acid thinking it was water.
There is a potus candidate currently pushing price controls.
Actually there's 2.
Yeah, but I heard chase is gay so who cares what he thinks.
Yes the JeffSarc, and Oliver, constantly remind us of that.
The word ‘cunt’ always come to mind when you and Pedo Jeffy start jerking each other off here in the comments.
Why is it that your only pals here are pedophiles?
How would you describe a person who wants the government to direct
you economicvaccine decisions in a manner that is most beneficial to “society at large”?Or masks. Remind me which posters kept defending that shit? Hmm...
A bear in the trunk is worth two in the bush.
A bear in the trunk is worth 3 Russian nukes.
Don’t poke the Russian bear.
Is that Russian bear in a trunk?
You're a bankrupt 'democratic' [Na]tional So[zi]alist Empire too late to be calling Wolf now.
The "beneficial to society at large" bill is already on the Card.
Thanks to Democrats endless obsession with ?free?(borrowed) sh*t.
""Looked at another way, the $300 or so you’d pay for a Dualit Classic, Milantoast, or Mitsubishi is at the midpoint of this week’s Neiman Marcus catalog, whose cheapest toaster option is a $90 polka-dotted Kate Spade, and priciest a $900 Dolce & Gabbana “Sicily is My Love,” both produced in China.""
""https://www.progressivepolicy.org/blogs/trade-fact-of-the-week-in-a-hypothetical-trump-vance-economy-a-toaster-would-cost-about-300/""
Neiman Marcus you say.
Hence the nickname "Needless Markup"
Can I get an appliance that lasts for several times as much money as a fragile made-in-China appliance? We could try a 500% tariff on all imported microwave ovens with plastic parts in the door latch mechanism.
I realized the BS about 'free trade agreements' when I saw how good shoes and dress shirts changed. Before WTO - I could buy good shoes that were made to fit my foot in any shoe store. Apparently my foot is not the 'global mass foot' but is a very normal American foot. Until business casual came along, I had to start wearing custom made shoes at about 2-3x the price as before the 'free trade' days. A similar problem with suits but tailoring didn't cost as much. Shirts otoh turned into utter crap - esp seams and buttons. Cheap shirts are cheap because they are not made to be worn. So I had to buy 2-3x more shirts each year. Some savings.
Before WTO
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.
At the same time what has changed is the nature of ownership of these companies. Thomas Pink started out as a great shirt company, and I had a ton of their shirts. They got bought by LVMH, who pushed prices up and quality down. Nothing to do with WTO.
Church's shoes - great shoes, until they get bought by Prada. Price up, quality down. WTO? No.
Allen-Edmonds - one of the top two American shoe companies. Gets bought by a succession of private equity firms. Price goes up quality goes down, some production moves offshore. WTO? No.
Blame modern finance models, not the WTO.
BTW I can strongly recommend Kamakura shirts and J Fitzpatrick shoes.
I blame both. My main point is that 'free trade' almost immediately resulted in either higher prices or a need to buy more because the available product sucked. Neither of which are a benefit.
I have a nice pair of Allen Edmonds. Bought 20+ years ago. It was the year of $200 shoes. Other suppliers that year was Sidi (Italy), Northwave (China), Specialized(Asia), and Red Wing. My feet really like the Allen Edmonds, Sidi's and Red Wings .
I haven't bought bike shoes for 25 years, so have no idea what's in/out. The cheapest dress shoes worth considering nowadays are probably Meermin - mostly made in China but finished in Mallorca.
And if the problem you describe was experienced by a large number of consumers, someone would fill that need in the market. It's called capitalism.
Complaining that the company whose product you liked was sold and the new owners tried to cut corners has no connection to the WTO whatsoever. It's just another company that thinks that no one noticed the quality of a popular brand and are stunned when, after buying the company and lowering the quality, people notice. It's a movie that plays out about 50% of the time a large company who thinks they know better buys a quality company.
Wasn't it Ford that was shocked when, after buying Volvo and replacing all the parts with Ford parts, people who loved Volvos stopped buying them because they didn't want a Ford in a Volvo costume?
But none of that is connected in any way, shape, or form to the WTO.
It wasn't any brand loyalty. It was the difference between product made in the US v product made overseas. Which became far more common around the time GATT changed to WTO. Some of which was newly outsourced product.
In the past year I have replaced a washer, dryer, dishwasher and water softener all of which were over thirty years old and all of which were low end models when I bought them. But they still worked (mostly). I still have a refrigerator and freezer that are probably 35 years old but I haven't replaced them because the damn things still work as good as new. I don't know but the youngsters are telling me there's no way the new shit will last that long. We shall see.
Eric, if a toaster made in America would cost $300, and one made in China costs $30, don’t you think there might be a little more to examine in this comparison as to why that might be? Just shouting “CHINA IT IS” seems slightly facile, even for an Act Blue libertarian like yourself.
I mean you can theoretically make toast with a butane lighter and a plate. Why the hell would a toaster cost $300 if not for copious amounts of regulations, mismanagement and graft?
And what about the difference between a $30 toaster and a $32 toaster? Would you still make the same argument? I mean cheaper is cheaper right?
Economists call that comparative advantage. Yes, laws and regulations create comparative advantages (and disadvantages).
So we have hobbled our economy with regulation and are importing goods from countries which are relatively free? Which means we are crippling ourselves for no reason or are buying poorly or dangerously made products from foreigners to save our own population from poor working conditions?
We haven't hobbled our economy. Get real. I think we're better off as a result of offloading menial, repetitive, drugework off to poorer countries. Allows our workers to do more productive tasks.
If you want to be honest here, why don't you look up American exports? It's a lie that we don't export things. Or look up some comparisons between worker productivity here vs places from which we import things. It's much greater here.
We haven’t hobbled our economy.
LMAO…. So what do you call a debt at 125% of GDP?
What do you call 6% Inflation?
Progressive Debt & Inflation building & manufacturing?
Who's going to buy that sh*t?
He’s too drunk and stupid to know any of that.
I say "look up" because if I produce any links, a bunch of people will shit up the comments with attacks on the source. So pick your own source.
Because you’re a moron, and generally wrong and/or lying. You have no credibility, and you’re a worthless drunk.
Favorite story od the last year was the Chinese titanium that wasn't actually titanium.
https://westobserver.com/chinese-state-owned-company-allegedly-supplied-questionable-titanium-for-boeing-and-airbus-aircraft/
Chitanium is the best metal for airplane parts, and everything else..
Chinese slave labor is one comparative advantage. IP theft is another.
I can do this all day.
First part is not exactly honest. Slavery is illegal in China. Yes some slave labor exists, but under illegal conditions.
Yes they don't respect IP. On the other hand patent and copyright law is severely abused in this country. Pick your extreme I guess.
Yes some slave labor exists, but under illegal conditions.
It’s like weed is illegal in the US, but the feds choose not to enforce those laws. The CCP isn’t cracking down on slavery, or even sweat shops.
Oh, nice. Moved the goalposts from actual slavery to work conditions you don't like. Very nice.
What you call a sweat shop, poor people call an economic opportunity. This country was rife with sweat shops before it became a rich country. It's a stepping stone.
Disingenuous dickhead.
Nothing moved.
The CCP isn’t cracking down on slavery or sweat shops.
I’m disingenuous? You the one who moved the goalposts from slavery to factories where people are free to not show up to work, while also moving the goalposts from slavery being legal to laws not being enforced. Don't you ever get tired of carrying those things?
If you can't make a point without lying, maybe your point is wrong.
Plenty of Uyghurs have a bone to pick with you.
Sarc had never worked in a productive job, so doesn't understand how theft to benefit him costs others. Sure IRAD gets spread across the cost of total sales, but you see sarc gets cheaper goods by their theft.
He is the type that would buy a TV a thief stole from his neighbor and justify it because it cost less than Walmart.
Make up some lies, check.
Argue against lies, check.
Make up more lies, check.
Argue against them, check.
Only thing that’s missing is some gaslighting statement like “sarc doesn’t understand what a strawman argument is.”
Let's talk about their currency, as well.
Yuan doesn't trade freely on international markets. If it did, they'd see both inflationary pressures and a rebalancing of valuations against other currencies.
IP theft of wires getting hot?
Pedo JeffSarc approves!
Tariffs can, of course, be used to make foreign-produced goods (like toasters) more expensive. That doesn't mean that manufacturing firms will radically redesign their supply chains to produce more toasters in the United States.
Internal supply chains are about internal accounting not real prices. The only real prices are the ones that come in from external suppliers and the ones that go out to external customers. Everything internal is just accounting - and often mostly for taxes. The country with the lowest tax rates is likely the one where the company will ensure the lowest possible prices for goods brought in there - and the highest possible price for goods that leave there.
That is where modern day tariffs will have an impact if the final customer is in a different country. They serve as 'sand in the gears'. Preventing global supply chains from being as frictionless as domestic ones. That is not so much about overall prices as it is about favoring the small/new over the big/established.
" Italy, Japan, and the United Kingdom. At the lowest end, those toasters cost the equivalent of $250, and some would be significantly pricier."
Is this because of tariffs or are domestic manufacturers competing with cheap imports by selling a higher quality product? The article doesn't bother to explain. And as Bohem admits it's highly unlikely any domestic manufacturer would get into the market for a 3 dollar premium. So what we're left with is a 10% consumption tax. All taxes are theft but what if a consumption tax were implemented along with lets say an increase in the standard deduction? The problem I have with the Reason tariff obsession that they are unwilling to weigh a consumption tax against the alternatives. It's almost like Koch Industries is specifically threatened by tariffs or something.
Boehm talks more about tariffs, utilized for centuries, more than he ever would a wealth tax, the Harris plan.
Or the Harris price controls.
What garbage pablum this is.
If we want to compete globally, we'd need to treat regulation and labor protections the same as those 'production nations'.
Hilariously, our own government wants places like China and India to follow our badly out of touch policies which would then make those countries just as non-competitive as we are. You'd pay the same for an American made toaster or a Chinese made toaster. They would be the same product, with the same costs, making any theoretical comparative advantage moot.
In such a scenario, who would actually produce things? How many government regulators would be required to double-check the manufacturing standards of those countries to be in line with the American regulatory scheme?
If the whole world followed our example, we'd be back in the dark ages whittling our own muskets out of local tree's and forging iron barrels in our furnace out back. Sure, there are libertarians that get a hard on just thinking about that but the ruling elites would still be using jets and guided missiles.
And just for the record, an 'ideas economy' only works if client states don't outright steal your idea's and rebrand them for their own companies to sell to their local populations. You wanted that sweet Chinese market money, but gave away everything that mattered and only got a small taste before the Chinese firms mandated their citizens buy their own knock off versions of your technology.
It's honestly fucking absurd what is being sold to the American public here. We're more or less exploiting nations economic advantages in environmental policy and labor, and they are exploiting us for easy technological transfers that are skipping a literal century of innovation.
We are getting the raw end of that deal whether you know it or not. Sure, you got a cheap TV but you're also underemployed and using government aid programs. If that's a 'win' for the United States I'd sure hate to see a loss.
Hilariously, our own government wants places like China and India to follow our badly out of touch policies which would then make those countries just as non-competitive as we are. You’d pay the same for an American made toaster or a Chinese made toaster. They would be the same product, with the same costs, making any theoretical comparative advantage moot.
Huh, you know I never realized why Chinese-made toasters were so cheap. So what you're saying is, if all the Chinese labor became unionized, were subject to $20 Now! Minimum wages, given 3 months a year paid leave (Hey, Europe! Sup!), paid maternity leave, slathered on 952,347,259 layer of environmental regulations, threw a little Net Zero into the pot, stirred in a couple of million illegal immigrants that received free healthcare and free subsidized housing as a matter of law, jacked up sales taxes to 11%, created a massive real estate bubble, regulated building and construction to the point of nearly strangling it off, mandating equity-based public below-market-rate housing and elected Gavin Newsom as the Chairman of The Central Committee, that toasters in China would cost a few bucks more?
I see you are familiar with the topic, and may even have taken an economics course or two!
Apparently, this author didn't get a B.S. or if they did opted not to take any economics courses for their Journalism degree.
I have no idea what makes them think they are capable of writing on this topic when they have the same average economic knowledge at the toasters they are writing about.
Boehm received a bachelor's degree in history and communications from Fairfield University in 2009.
From his bio.
If there was one major I tutored dumber than Gen Ed majors it was communication majors.
And Boehm is their poster child.
Apparently, this author didn’t get a B.S. or if they did opted not to take any economics courses for their Journalism degree.
Oh, Boehm has plenty of BS.
An unskilled American worker can't live on $5 an hour. An unskilled worker in a developing country can live a comfortable life on $5 a week.
That's at least a 40x difference in labor costs. There isn't a regulatory scheme anywhere in America that adds a 40x cost to production.
Anyone who thinks that regulation is what makes American products cost so much more to produce is either willfully blind or mind-numbingly ignorant of the impact of labor costs.
Anyone who thinks that regulation is what makes American products cost so much more to produce is either willfully blind or mind-numbingly ignorant of the impact of labor costs.
More winning economic analysis from an economic illiterate.
American regulation is certainly one big factor that makes Americans less competitive. There is no serious economist who would disagree.
Since you're totally ignorant of all of this, you simply disagree with no basis.
This is right up there with saying that Act Blue donors must be conservatives. You are not a serious person.
I'll have you know that I have inlaws in a developing country, and, no, you can't live a comfortable life on $5 a week. Cheaper than here, certainly, but not $5 a week.
You live a very uncomfortable life indeed, and not that cheap.
If you can't make things you can't win wars. I don't want a war, but if we're handed a big one I'd like to not lose. WWII was bad for the economy (total economic waste of resources - it only 'ended' the Depression because the govt finally quit changing the rules regularly) but not one we wanted to lose.
Can we convert toaster factories to make guns like in WWII? Not if they're in China.
""So to achieve Vance's apparent goal, mainstream toaster prices would probably have to rise to Neiman Marcus levels, say $300 each.""
So an explanation about why an American made toaster would be $300 is completely ignored for reasons. Also, why you want toasters to manufactured in the US is, at least, a perceived death of low end legal employment for native born Americans. Looking at this as a pure consumer side matter is missing much of the point of the argument. Does it matter if US consumers can buy $30 toasters if a significant portion of the population cannot find gainful employment that would enable them to buy a $30 toaster?
Thank you.
"So an explanation about why an American made toaster would be $300 is completely ignored for reasons."
Most people realize that unskilled labor costs in America are many multiples higher than in developing countries because the cost of living in America is many multiples higher than in developing countries.
"Does it matter if US consumers can buy $30 toasters if a significant portion of the population cannot find gainful employment that would enable them to buy a $30 toaster?"
And yet, with the brief exception of the pandemic, we have enjoyed historically low unemployment rates since early in Obama's first term. So your "if things were completely different and worse than they have been since the 70s" premise is about as ridiculous as it comes.
Most people realize that unskilled labor costs in America are many multiples higher than in developing countries because the cost of living in America is many multiples higher than in developing countries.
And you are totally ignorant of the cause of that disparity in cost of living, it would seem, and proud of that ignorance to boot.
But rather than dwell on the math, it might be more important to ask whether America and its workers would be better off in an economy where a basic kitchen appliance was suddenly 10 times more expensive. Clearly, Cass believes this would be an
Slow your horses down, Broheim, I'd like to uh, dwell on the math a little bit longer, please...
From your source:
This is a VERY complex topic, and I don't think I'm prepared to resolve all the ins-and-outs here, and it would, in fact, take a much longer article that Broheim posted here, and would... alas, have to "dwell on the math" a little bit harder and longer, and more uncut.
But based on the comparisons this experty expert in all expert tradey things is using, why does he compare the $29 no-frills toaster with a stamped outer shell, basic internal wiring with a rheostat to control the temperature with a plastic knob, to the $500 high end, high-design "hand-made" (HAND MADE!), internet connected-utilizing-the-modern-advances-of-ai model?
Yes, startup costs for a local manufacturer in Bowling Green Kentucky would be high to build up all the necessary infrastructure. But I don't see why a local manufacturer, once started couldn't produce a reasonably priced toaster for a price that MIGHT not be as cheap is the 'made in China' model with the dodgy brand name and English-as-a-second-language instruction manual that fizzles out after two years...
He is comparing luxury brands to cheap manufactured products.
Comparing a Tag Huer to a Walmart digital watch.
"Hey, here's what a basic juicer costs when it's made in California!"
See! It can't be done!11!!
For example. Hamilton Beach is 30 bucks.
Hamilton Beach 2 Slice Toaster with Extra-Wide Slots, Bagel Setting, Toast Boost, Slide-Out Crumb Tray, Auto-Shutoff & Cancel Button, Defrost Function, Stainless Steel (22794) https://a.co/d/aDzkxNN
You mean the toaster that is made in foreign countries and imported?
The argument isn't that an American company can't make a $30 toaster in (for example) Vietnam and import it. The argument is that no company, American or otherwise, can make a $30 toaster in America.
Do you not understand the difference?
The real problem is that making toasters is work that lazy white people on the dole don't want to do. Haitians on the other hand are eager to. And they bring their own food trucks.
I am in the process of crafting a comment about how there are a whole bunch of out-of-work immigrants sitting around in this country who would be willing to man an assembly line at below-market-rates. What say, you, Reason? Seems like a reasonable compromise, yes? We'll waive all the minimum wage, workplace safety yadda yadda shit for the eleventy million undocumented border crossers if they can build our American Made toasters at competitive prices to the ones made in *in Donald Trump impersonation voice* Chiyna!
There's a difference between an out-of-work immigrant and a prohibited-from-working immigrant.
We’ll waive all the minimum wage, workplace safety yadda yadda shit
And?
I’d settle for just allowing all immigrants to work. Denying people a basic right to provide for themselves and forcing them onto welfare, then demonizing them for it, is dishonest, misleading, despicable, lacking in decency, and exactly what I’ve come to expect from people of a certain political persuasion.
No one here is demonizing the immigrants, we're demonizing the strategically and reluctantly voted-for politicians who used immigrants as pawns in a bid to dramatically increase their power, prestige and voting bloc by a volumetric growth in the size and scope of the state via the welfare system that they explicitly created and demanded would cover all people who found themselves inside the boundaries of our social construct.
As Peter Hitchens said about his young years as a Trotskyist-- "Yes we wanted open borders, but we didn't give a damn about immigrants, we merely wanted to destroy the nation state and bring about a revolution."
No one here is demonizing the immigrants
*choke*
You fucking serious? No one is demonizing immigrants. They just accuse them of stealing and eating pets, of stealing jobs while going on welfare, of all being rapists and murderers and gang members, of being illegal for existing, but no one is demonizing them.
I’m not even reading the rest of your comment. That’s such a big whopper I’m going to let it stand on its own.
"of all being rapists and murderers and gang members, of being illegal for existing, but no one is demonizing them."
"All"?
And if you are breaking the law entering the country, yes, you are illegal. Not for existing. You'd be quite legal if you were, you know, back where you came from.
Bill Melugin
@BillMelugin_
BREAKING: In a stunning letter sent to
@RepTonyGonzales
by ICE, the agency reveals there are currently 13,000+ noncitizens convicted of homicide & 15,000+ noncitizens convicted of sexual assault who are roaming the US as part of ICE’s non-detained docket.
Trump was lawfully convicted of a shitty law.
Ever occur to you that laws prohibiting people from working are shitty?
You can’t honestly argue that the law is the law with immigrants, then brush it of with Trump.
Literally a plank of Marxists.
https://www.marxist.com/why-marxists-oppose-immigration-controls.htm
Immigrants are always allowed to work. Illegals are not, and shouldn’t be. But you knew that, you lying propagandist sack of booze soaked shit.
All immigrants ARE allowed to work. Illegal aliens are not immigrants.
Careful there buddy. That might Make America Great again. No way Reason will support that.
Reason only supports global neo Marxism.
Only if the state continues to give them government graft to keep labor rates low - Reason.
"who would be willing to man an assembly line at below-market-rates"
Would their landlord accept less money for their housing? Would the clothing store accept less money for their clothes? Would the grocery store accept less money for their groceries?
So you think naked homeless people who can't afford to eat would still be willing to work for substandard wages because ... why?
And they never receive any welfare benefits either.
Correct.
Oh, in other news which should have been Reason's top, above-the-fold headline article today, Deborah Birx now fully admits that two-weeks-to-flatten-the-curve was ALWAYS a lie, they knew it was a lie and it was nothing more than a marketing tagline that would me massaged and extended infinitely, allowing them to massage whatever data they needed to fit the narrative.
Oh Reason will be all over that story in (checks Reason timeline) January 2027.
1/22/20: "We do have a plan and we think it's gonna be handled very well, we've already handled it very well.” Deaths: 0
1/22/20: "We have it totally under control. It's one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It's going to be just fine." Deaths: 0
1/24/20: "China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well.” Deaths: 0
1/30/20: "We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five — and those people are all recuperating successfully. But we're working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it's going to have a very good ending for us … that I can assure you," Deaths: 0
2/10/20: “Looks like by April, you know, in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away. Deaths: 0
2/23/20: “We have it very much under control in this country," Deaths: 0
2/26/20: “when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done," Deaths: 0
2/27/20: "It's going to disappear. One day it's like a miracle, it will disappear," Deaths: 0
2/29/20: "We've taken the most aggressive actions to confront the coronavirus. They are the most aggressive taken by any country and we're the number one travel destination anywhere in the world, yet we have far fewer cases of the disease then even countries with much less travel or a much smaller population." Deaths: 1
3/25/20: "There is tremendous hope as we look forward and we begin to see the light at the end of the tunnel." Deaths: 942
3/29/20: We can expect that, by June 1st, we will be well on our way to recovery. We think, by June 1st, a lot of great things will be happening." Deaths: 2,467
4/3/20: "I said it was going away - and it is going away." Deaths: 7,090
4/13/20: “We did the right thing. Everything we did was right." Deaths: 27,947
How did those statements restrict freedoms?
I was addressing the issue of lying.
1. Did you factor out the VAT on the EU toasters?
2. Why spend $30?
https://www.rei.com/product/401036/coghlans-camp-stove-toaster
Stop dwelling on the math!
Goddamned markets! Always gotta have a solution for everything. Won't just obey and fulfill Boehm's policy wishes.
American toasters were free on 04FEB1932; Herbert Hoover offered one to anyone who opened a bank account. It's right here in The Onion: https://theonion.com/front-page-archive/#year-1930
As soon as the Communist Manifesto income tax amendment is repealed we can again talk about 10% revenue versus higher sumptuary tariffs. But assuming Eric knows a shelter half from an entrenching tool, why not import H-bombs, missiles, SDR gear and nuclear submarines from Red China? They have a slightly waterlogged one at the Wuhan dock we could snap up at a discount right now.
If tariffs cause consumers to switch to those domestic-made toasters, Cass acknowledges that consumers are out two bucks.
This is what economists call a "deadweight loss"
That simply isn't true. The deadweight loss is the marginal revenue from the guys who would have been willing or able to buy a toaster for less than $32 but are no longer buying them at $32. If you're going to sneer at people on economics, at least try to get basic economic theory right.
Seeing as Boehm praised the raised taxes in Kamalas plan as a benefit...
I nearly had a cow when my parents paid $400 for a 2-slice toaster in Dallas. Thing is, this industrial model could sneak past customs presenting as a cheapie. At the pub, the thing shot up sliced toast at the rate of several loaves a shift for years. To this day I buy American tools when I can find them. I look to the day I can use a skilsaw on the bureaucrats that demand double-insulated models that are harder to repair.
Parents? They had toaster back in the early 1800’s?
Also, I'd note that all your "domestic" brands tend to be specialty low-production-run status items. So, the $300 claim is apples and oranges. It's like saying because a Czinger 21C (price tag: $1.7 million) costs more than a Hyundai, that's evidence that Americans can't produce affordable cars.
I'm no expert in trade like this Ed Gresser guy is, but they made an utterly retarded Juicer in California-- one of the most expensive states to do business in-- for $399.
If they can make a retarded Juicer for $399, then they can make an unretarded Juicer for probably about 1/8th that cost somewhere in America.
There's an easier argument against Cass. Even if this hypothetical toaster only cost $32, he's commiting the Broken Window Fallacy.
My assumption is that it's much, much easier for existing companies to use contacts in government to squelch domestic upstart competitors than it is foreign competitors.
I mean Chuck Schumer has little ability to stop chip manufacturers in Vietnam, but he sure as hell could stop one in upstate New York when an existing chip manufacturer pays him to do so.
Boehm's complaint about only one side being in favor of "central planning" would be a joke if any of this was funny.
Seems about right to me. I'm an engineer, I have a pretty good idea how to build a toaster that will last, and not cost $300.
But would I be permitted to? Probably not.
Well as with all things, the real victims of tariffs are minorities and the LGBTQ community. Those that didn't die of Covid.
Man, I’m glad someone said it….
Again from the original source:
All I can say to this is... what in the fuck are you talking about? Does this guy really believe that if we were able to hypothetically pivot toaster manufacturing to the US that the employment picture is a zero-sum game?
Well yeah sure, since "unemployment" is so low. There's just not enough "unemployed" people to take on these jobs.
I mean it's not like the government intentional defines those numbers in order to hide massive numbers of actually unemployed Americans. That's a crazy right wing conspiracy theory.
I already have a toaster.
The problem is, production costs are a small fraction of the final price paid by the consumer. There is no reason that the American toaster needs cost hundreds of dollars more if it only costs another couple of dollars to produce. But everyone in the supply chain attaches multipliers rather than add-ons for their contribution to getting the goods to you.
As to whether people will pay more, if the manufacturer makes a point of letting the consumer know that this was indeed made in the US, I expect that a fair number of people would do what I just did and bought the US made item for $45 rather than the chinese made knock-off for $45.
I would and have paid a little extra for made in the USA. Especially if its lasts longer so I dont have to buy a new chinese one every couple years.
As Thomas Friedman points out the world is getting flat and we are now in a world economy. In that kind of economy, the business person has to look for the right niche to be successful. Some products are just going to be easier and better made elsewhere. Americans don't need locally made toaster we need businesses that fit our country and our economy. What would be the cost to start a company to make toasters? Better to outsource the manufacturing and make the profit on the retail. Isn't that what is really happening at the big box stores? How many of the American big box companies are booming because they get a small amount for the sale of a lot of toasters toaster.
Too funny.
Americans don’t need locally made toaster we need businesses that fit our
country and our economy.our globalist overlords, and put foreigners ahead of citizens.Fixed that for you, shitlib.
Maybe the upcoming longshoreman's strike will educate you on the dangers of depending on foreign manufacturing to make everything for us.
Referencing Friedman only underscores what a leftist tool you are.
No, it underscores that read about the world. I read a great number of sources. I never read anything that suggests America can ignore the world economy. The time is past when this country could stand alone on top of the world economy. We are now just a player in the world economy. We can play smart and to our strengths or just play stupid.
Such glittering generalities from the eternal shitlib.
No, it underscores what a leftist tool you are by citing another leftist tool.
No, consumers are not "out two bucks." That two bucks bought the benefit of an American toaster and other intangibles that are important to the consumer. This is why economics is a load of Tijuana donkey emissions.
$300 for a toaster? Well, that depends. Will it actually toast correctly and repeatedly? Will it last a long time? Price is irrelevant. VALUE is what matters.
The 300 dollar(now 250 dollar) Japanese toasters are wild. Look up T0-ST1-T. Course, it also acts as a panini maker, and can do french toast and a bunch of other things. Then there’s the other 250 dollar(700 dollars for the Dolce and Gabbana colorway) Italian toaster, the Smeg 2 which is basically an idiot tax on sustainability freaks using an updated variant of the old 50’s Sunbeam style toaster. There aren’t however 250 dollar stamped steel timer toasters. Basically, Gresser is at best a moron, and at worst a disingenuous shitweasel.
Now that's worth some money. Beautiful, PEFECT toast. The Mitsubshi Bread Oven.
I guess this is as relevant a place to drop this latest nuclear-hot take from Kevin Williamson on Mexican economic health:
But there is more to Mexico than the Nissan Sentra (headquarters in Yokohama, factory in Aguascalientes) and the border. And chaotic and problematic as the border is—and that is a longstanding failure for a string of American presidents, most definitely including Donald Trump—that chaos doesn’t begin at the Rio Grande. We don’t have a lot of Canadian economic refugees looking for work in Home Depot parking lots, and a Mexico that was more prosperous, more stable, more decent, more liberal, more integrated into North America, etc., would offer less difficulty at the border. In that respect, we must also consider that Mexico is an entrepôt for economic emigrants from other countries seeking to enter the United States. It would be nice if Mexico were more help with that problem, but Mexico currently lacks both the incentives and the capacity to be the kind of partner we need on that front.
I am tempted to write that what the United States needs is a kind of Marshall Plan for Mexico. But that isn’t quite right: What the United States needs is a Marshall Plan for Mexico … 30 years ago. “Better late than never” is a cliché, not a self-evident truth applicable in all situations.
Gosh, doesn't that sound nice? Such a Big Idea! So profound! A Marshall Plan for Mexico 30 years ago!
Isn't that, exactly, what the fuck NAFTA was supposed to do when it was passed 30 fucking years ago? Offshore a bunch of our manufacturing and agriculture to a Third World country of super-cheap labor that would pay workers in Mexico slightly more than they were getting at that point, which would improve their economy and incentivize them to immigrate in fewer numbers to the US? Immigration which had become such a bone of contention after it began to explode in the wake of Hart-Cellar, to the point that Reagan had to declare an amnesty in 1986?
So what happened in the wake of NAFTA? We offloaded a bunch of manufacturing there, and immigration levels...exploded from the late 90s up until Trump finally harnessed the GOP voters' frustration over it all the way to the nomination in 2016, while a lot of small manufacturing towns were hollowed out in the same time period, forcing its inhabitants to go on welfare just to survive.
The same towns, such as Springfield, who recently had factory owners and mayors work with the Democrats to import a bunch of Third World labor because it didn't want to pay the native residents enough to get off of welfare. The same towns that Kevin Williamson looks down his fat nose and three chins at because they don't want to work for the shit-tier wages the "refugees" are being paid, while taxpayers are forced to fork over pay for their housing and increased cost of services because they're "refugees" and we need to be "compassionate."
Fuck Mexico, how about a Marshall Plan for middle America, one that doesn't involve the importation of a bunch of migrant labor to displace and overwhelm the people already living there? Or is that too much for these neocon fatheads to contemplate, because it's not a Big Idea that increases globalist hegemony?
Oh, so they come to America rather than screw up Mexico with exponential pollution. Why not go to a territory where no one cares what happens to the environment so long as it's not in their back yard? Of course!!
$250 toaster huh?
NOW...
How much would that Domestic toaster cost...
*without* all the [Na]tional So[zi]al[ism] and Taxation that went with it?
There was a like study done way back in the 90s that showed $0.05 of a $1.29 loaf of bread actually went into producing that bread. All the rest went to political BS.
'Guns' don't make sh*t.
250 bucks. Because the toasters being talked about aren't stamped steel timing toasters. They're either 50's style Sunbeam style toasters with a sustainability idiot tax, or complex machines that can do a shitload more than just toast.
Yes, it's great having cheap toasters. Close down the American plants and send the manufacturing to China. If any of their workers so much as raise a peep about pay, benefits, or working conditions we know what the Communist dictators will do. And you know they'll be looking out for us, to keep us happy buying cheap toasters. Adam Smith would be proud.
The original Poe Toaster was something to be cherished. It later turned into some woke festival. Even before then when some tried to capture/unmask the mysterious tribute payer.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Very cool story.
Let's check that figure....
https://foodsguy.com/best-toasters-made-or-designed-in-the-usa/
"GE is a brand known for keeping their work in the United States."
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B08NWGNQPS/reasonmagazinea-20/
$48.95 - Certainly $250 isn't an exaggeration. /s
And where were the parts made?
If you believe the product marked "made in the USA" aren't mostly foreign-made items that only meet whatever the minimum standard for being "made" in America, you are way too credulous.
Often the only requirement is that everything inside (plus the case) can be made elsewhere, but putting all the foreign parts together with a robotic assembly line in America allows it to be marked "made in America".
About what I figured in my comment below.
Also amazing that you found a list of 7 toasters made in the USA. Don't these people ever fact check themselves? They go straight from making up imaginary things to publishing now?
“Start with that $30 toaster made overseas. Now, slap a 10 percent tariff on it, so that consumers must pay $33 to buy it.”
Of course, that toaster probably cost $5.00 to manufacture in some country where the folks making it get $2.50 an hour, if that much.
Well $2.50 and hour is pretty good. Starting minimum wage for me was $1.50/hour. But in my early work career that wage could pay my college tuition. The point is that those people making $2.50/hour can move up in the world. In the US that kind of a wage would be useless.
^How Goverment STEALS the labors of everyone under-the-covers without even a Debit-Entry accounting for it. Money printer go brrrrrr.....
Or you take that $30 US made toaster; slap on the 80% domestic taxes on the manufacturer and get a $48.95 toaster.
This is the silliest thing I've ever read at this site. Go google "toaster prices in Japan" right now. Find me a place on this earth where basic toasters go for 250 dollars.
What happened when Tariff King Donald Trump was in office? Reason had to dig stories about crib makers and wine companies to find tragic stories about tariffs killing businesses. But compared to now, life was good. Trump signed new trade deals in Asia. If he continued to deregulate the administrative state, that would offset some tariff burden on foreign companies. And these aren't dumb people. Their own countries are a banana republic and they're keen on expanding overseas. And America is one of the biggest markets in the world.
Please - no one is going to sell toasters for 250 dollars here. You're reaching new lows to spread the narrative that "we're dead without foreigners and immigrants making things for us". They need us as much as we need them, if not more. If America stopped buying LG and Samsung products, Korea would go broke within a decade.
I mean, the toaster in question, the T0-ST1-T is sold here. Specifically on amazon. And it’s pretty fucking cool. What it is not is a simple heating element, stamped metal sheet, timing toaster.
All good except Trump did not deregulate as much as people think. His trade deals were little better than the existing deals they replaced. Trump benefitted from a good economy he inherited and then squandered. Small appliance manufacturing is not coming back to the US in any meaningful way.
His deregulation agenda stalled when democrats waged on him.
The economy wasn’t anything to write home about in 2016. Don’t forget that democrats suffered historic losses in midterms under Obama. Trump won several blue states that haven’t voted gop in decades. They doesn’t happen in a thriving economy.
and the efficiencies made possible by outsourcing low-level manufacturing
Try to ignore the sticker on the back that says, "Made with pride by Chinese slave labor."
It figures Boehm is onboard with slave labor.
Democrats have long ago given up on American manufacturing.
Mr. Obama asserted that “some of those jobs of the past are just not going to come back.”
President Obama also said ""[A] lot of young people no longer see the trades and skilled manufacturing as a viable career. But I promise you, folks can make a lot more, potentially, with skilled manufacturing or the trades than they might with an art history degree." He also recognized that he could create national health care system and that he had to work with the existing market based system for the ACA. President Obama was a practical person and we would do well to remember what he said.
The most destructive President since the turn of the 20th Century? I think not.
And yet he still great ratings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_States#:~:text=The%202018%20Siena%20poll%20of,presidential%20historians....%22
Great Ratings from the [Na]tional So[zi]alist[s]!!! /s
Figuring out which nation you live in would be a HUGE step in correcting your Leftardation.
So a bunch of extreme far left academics ranked an authoritarian Marxist president near the top? What a shock.
"The most destructive President since the turn of the 20th Century?"
Don't worry, that doesn't sound like angry hyperbole crossed with bitter impotence. Not at all.
He may not have been destructive but he was certainly conservative.
He was pretty much middle of the road. The kind of thing we look for in a President.
I am not worried about anything…certainly not what some entity called Nelson thinks. Nor am I angry.
If people actually valued an all-American toaster they would buy it, even at a higher cost. But they don't. So the market has already told you that the value of such toaster, including the value of the additional American jobs, is less than it's cost.
Cheap shit bought by stupid people is what you get when greed drives your society.
Stop filling dumps with cheap Chinese toasters, all their plastics and raw materials, make toasters that last at least 30 years, are repairable, and then they’ll be worth what they cost.
Have some pride of manufacturing.
HIGHLY unlikely.
You don't have to use hypotheticals. We can compare the prices of Chinese/US made products right now. Vizio TVs, for example, are made in America, and are price competitive with Chinese made brands like Hisense and TCL. Same with Korean TVs by Samsung.
I don't know where you are getting your facts but when I looked up Vizio it said they manufacture in China, Mexico, and Vietnam.
Okay. Look at firearms.
The 1968 GCA didn’t just slap a tariff on imported firearms, it banned them (with notable exceptions). Far from limiting access to and driving up prices of firearms for the American consumer, it has led to a hugely successful industry. The American consumer has unparalleled choice and access to high-quality guns fully the equal of those being produced anywhere, access to guns at any price point you’d care to name, and foreign manufacturers have set up shop in the US so they can manufacture and market those guns here, domestically, employing US citizens. Glock makes guns in the US. Some Glocks are *only* made in the US. Sig makes guns in the US. So do Beretta, H&K, and FN. People buying guns made in the US are not buying the firearm equivalent of a $250 toaster, they're getting a product nobody else in the world can make better for less money.
If that’s what import restrictions can accomplish, put me down for import restrictions.
Are the guns American made or American assembled. What guns are made 100% in the USA? Rather what percentage of guns available are 100% made in the USA?
Henry, Ruger, Kahr, Charter, Daniel Defense, and a few others are 100% American-made. Many more are partially and significantly American-made although they use imported parts.
Are you next going to ask which ones use domestic steel?
No, I think you answered the question. Some guns are 100% US made but many are not and use foreign components. Which does refute your original argument about guns. Even those items made in America are often merely assembled from parts that can come from anywhere in the world.
Do you think a tariff on toasters would also ban the import of parts which can be used to assemble toasters?
I've toured the FN plant not far from here, and, yeah, they build the whole thing in the plant.
Look, guns don't have as many parts as you might think.
Vizio manufactures SOME products and components in China, Mexico, and Vietnam, not necessarily TVs. At one time they did make them here, although it’s possible that is no longer the case.
There are three lesser known brands that claim they do manufacture TVs in the US: Seura, SkyVue, and Sun Brite
https://www.usalovelist.com/televisions-made-in-usa/
I looked them up, and while the prices are a little higher than typical brands, they aren't exorbitantly higher. And they cost more because they are made for niche markets, like people who want a waterproof TV.
Again, are Seura, SkyVue, and Sun Brite made in America or rather assembled from parts bought from both foreign and domestic sources?
I don't know, but even in China are they any TVs that are made with zero components or materials from other countries? Doubtful.
This cannot be measured without also finding the REAL number of unemployed people... it is clearly not 4%, my guess is more like 9-10% (if not higher). If so, getting people making toasters is more important than a 20% increase in price on them.
Some would advocate that those toasters should only last a couple of weeks to keep the all the industries mining the raw materials, factories making them and dumps disposing them working around the clock.
A more meaningless wasteful existence than anyone could imagine.
Would you really get that many people working? How many companies would have to use immigrant labor to get products made? I am guessing more than you think.
The free market, profit motive, call it what you want doesn’t give a rats ass about society, people, the big picture.
In their myopic obsession to maximize profits, we the people, are nothing more than just another resource to exploit and discard when used up.
With no more consideration for the big picture than individual algae in an algal bloom have. With the same result, destruction of all life save for a few. The 1%.
There is a massive difference between Gov-Gun STOLEN profits and EARNED profits and that difference is also the difference between a criminal and a productive member of society.
Ignoring that distinction is exactly how "we the people" ended up with the h*llhole of a Nazi-nation that continues to persist.
The only human asset Gov-Guns can possibly provide "we the people" is to ensure Liberty and Justice for all.
51% Immigrant versus 30% native welfare-use ratio.
You've been loaded with BS-propaganda about "Immigrant Labor" does everything.
US population 337,197,770 at 77.9% Adult = 262,677,062.
US employment (including self-employed) = 167,800,000.
Actual Adults working = 63.8%
Not working Adults = 36.2%
Sucking off the Government-tit = 40.5%
And that's why the [Na]tional So[zi]al[ism] can't seem to be gotten rid of. Too many are making a living off of Gov-Gun armed THEFT of their neighbors labors and creating a zero-sum resources pool. The USA is on the brink of being just another Socialist nightmare of a nation that self-destructs.
What a load of horse hockey.
Even if it is true that there are no toasters made in the US, there are countless consumer products that ARE made in the US. It seems like just about any consumer product category now has an entrant or several touting “made in the USA” as a selling point. So we don’t need to guess or look at toasters in gosh dang Japan.
From what I’ve seen, US made products might cost 2-3x more than the bottom of the barrel, but often only 1.5x or so. But they almost universally are much better quality for that price. These are often smaller companies too, that may advertise on instagram or something, and they don’t have the economies of scale that bigger companies do so the higher cost isn’t even solely due to being made in the US.
Example:
Yoder and Lone Star Grillz are two companies that make high-end/premium smokers/grills right in the USA.
Their products cost 1.5x or so similar imported offerings in the market, which often come from bigger companies, but those imports have thinner gauge steel and cheap chinese construction.
And we should have the right to choose among all these products without the government putting its finger on the scales to promote one vs. the other.
Our government has not a finger, but two fists coming down on the side of the scale that is against domestic industry. It’s an almost traitorous situation, almost like an intentional design to destroy the American people and their posterity. A tariff is just a slight move toward balance.
As Adam Smith put it, “The second case, in which it will generally be advantageous to lay some burden upon foreign for the encouragement of domestic industry is, when some tax is imposed at home upon the produce of the latter. In this case, it seems reasonable that an equal tax should be imposed upon the like produce of the former. This would not give the monopoly of the home market to domestic industry, nor turn towards a particular employment a greater share of the stock and labour of the country than what would naturally go to it. It would only hinder any part of what would naturally go to it from being turned away by the tax into a less natural direction, and would leave the competition between foreign and domestic industry, after the tax, as nearly as possible upon the same footing as before it.”
I didn't see any mention of the morality of a foreign company using slave labor to produce toasters, and whether tariffs on that country's exports would create an incentive for the foreign country to get out of the slave labor business, and be more civil. Because that may be how that country is producing them for less. Or it may be subsidizing a member of the political class who has a factory that makes them.
While tariffs cost US citizens money, when it's in the pursuit of liberty, I'm OK with it.
Nice how you are willing to spend Other Citizens' Money.
If you don't like Individual Liberty and Justice for all..
THEN .................. GET THE F OUT OF THE USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is why neither the Republicans nor the Democrats are the "right party" for America. They both lie and twist facts to drum up support. We shouldn't protect american workers so much as we should steer them to working in areas that are more effective and efficient and import everything else. However we should also stop immigration completely except for what we NEED. We should also end birthright citizenship which is eroding the foundations of our democracy. Finally we should implement RCV/IRV voting so as to reduce the negative impact our country is seeing from our "two party system" which is not really what the framers of our constitution ever wanted.
If you actually search for USA made toasters, you rapidly get lost in a jungle of endless AI generated sites fraudulently promoting Chinese manufactured and imported toasters as "made in the USA". Amazon, of course, stands by its longstanding policy of not enabling you to search for products based on their country of manufacture, though most customers want that ability.
Honestly, it's enough to tempt me to try kickstarter.
How about America makes a better toaster, such as the 1949 Sunbeam Radiant Toaster?
I picked up one at a garage sale. Far superior to the junk sold now.