These Pro-Lifers Don't Love Abortion Bans
Reason talked with pro-life Americans who are uncomfortable with the post–Roe v. Wade abortion policy landscape.

Audra Worlow thinks of herself as pro-life. A 32-year-old, married stay-at-home mom in Ohio, Worlow takes her Catholic faith seriously. She's against both in vitro fertilization (IVF), which she calls "another form of eugenics," and surrogacy. She thinks abortion is not only harmful to babies but also "psychologically damaging to women."
Yet in the aftermath of the Supreme Court's decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, which overturned Roe v. Wade, Worlow isn't excited about states' new ability to ban abortion at any point in pregnancy.
She still wants to see an end to abortion. "I just don't know if the legal system is the right route to go with this," she tells Reason. "I'm worried that babies and women are going to die."
She points to the Brittany Watts case in her state. Watts' water broke at just 21 weeks pregnant, and a hospital refused to intervene. If medical staff had taken action, Worlow suggests, there's a chance the baby could have survived. Instead, Watts went home, miscarried, and was charged with "abuse of a corpse." A grand jury refused to indict.
"I want doctors to have the freedom to be doctors," says Worlow. She was trained as a hospital administrator, and she worries about the effect risk-averse administrators will have on doctors' treatment of pregnant women with complications. In places with abortions bans, doctors may be left "basically waiting around for the baby to die before they do anything." In the interim, she says, women can develop life-threatening conditions like sepsis. "I like the term pro-life. But I care about everybody's life. I…care about the woman's life, too."
The idea that Americans might personally oppose abortion but also disfavor banning it isn't new. But in the aftermath of Dobbs, this idea is taking on new salience. To help understand why, I sought out people who consider themselves pro-life but question the ethics or efficacy of abortion bans. I wanted to peer beyond the polls—which show significant shifts in abortion views since the Dobbs decision—and hear how individuals square competing values in this realm.
Dobbs was the biggest legal victory in the pro-life movement's history—a culmination of 40 years of activism and political strategy. The decision ushered in a wave of state abortion bans that weren't permissible under the Roe paradigm, in which only minimal restrictions were allowed before fetal viability.
But a strange thing happened in the aftermath of the pro-life movement's great victory: America became more pro-choice.
Although Americans' views on abortion are complex, surveys show a decisive shift toward pro-choice positions, even among some who believe in rights for embryos and fetuses or who question abortion's morality. When given the opportunity to weigh in on reproductive freedom measures directly, American voters—even those in decidedly red states like Kansas and Kentucky—keep taking the pro-choice side.
What happened? The reality of abortion prohibition set in. It is not unusual these days to hear the phrase "I'm pro-life, but…" followed by words of disapproval for the policies and tactics favored by prominent pro-lifers—and concern about what such policies will mean for women, children, and society.
It's a remarkable turnabout, and it's a reckoning for the pro-life movement that worked so hard to bring about Dobbs. The end of Roe turned out to be the biggest boost the pro-choice movement has ever had.
'The Labels Are Messy'
A majority of Americans now identify as "pro-choice"—54 percent in a Gallup poll from May 2024. That's a near-record high, and it reflects a measurable shift in public opinion.
Yet polling on "pro-choice" vs. "pro-life" labels doesn't tell the whole story, since views differ on what exactly these labels mean. Some think being pro-choice means support for legal abortion throughout pregnancy. Others suggest it aligns with the Roe paradigm where restrictions vary by trimester, with few at the beginning and a lot after viability. To some, "pro-choice" just means people should be allowed to choose abortion, while others think it necessarily endorses that choice. On the flip side, some use "pro-life" to describe personal opposition to abortion, while others think it must mean support for total or near-total bans.
What is clear is that these binary labels don't fully capture many people's views.
"The labels are messy, because people are way more nuanced," says Jordan Willow Evans, a 33-year-old woman living in New Hampshire. She opposes abortion as well as the death penalty, "unjust war," and euthanasia, so the pro-life label has "always resonated" with her. But she doesn't support abortion bans, because they can "drive people into dangerous alternatives" and "will eventually be either misused, abused, or otherwise neglected" by people in power.
"I think that taking an innocent life is one of the worst things you can do, and to avoid that at all costs is an imperative," says Meaghan Walker-Williams, a 52-year-old Canadian writer. But she doesn't "trust the government to get involved in these kinds of decisions," nor does she think "the state has the ability to discern what a woman can and can't handle, and what she can survive emotionally, psychologically, financially, spiritually."
Views like these aren't an anomaly. For a lot of folks, labels like "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are inadequate. In the Gallup poll where just 54 percent of respondents labeled themselves "pro-choice," a massive 85 percent said abortion should be legal under at least some circumstances.
A large Pew Research Center poll this year found strong support for the idea that "the decision about whether to have an abortion should belong solely to the pregnant woman," with 54 percent saying this describes their views very well and an additional 19 percent saying it describes their views somewhat well. It also found strong support for the idea that "human life begins at conception, so an embryo is a person with rights," with 19 percent at least somewhat endorsing this statement and 35 percent agreeing wholeheartedly. While 47 percent of those surveyed by Pew in March 2022 said abortion is morally wrong, only 22 percent said it should be illegal in all situations in which it is immoral.
All-or-nothing positions on abortion may dominate the headlines, but many Americans are fairly moderate on the issue. Their views on its morality and proper legal status shift depending on circumstances.
In the Pew poll taken last April, 25 percent said abortion should be legal in all circumstances and 8 percent said it should be illegal in all circumstances. The majority—66 percent—fell somewhere between these positions.
"There is evidence that many people are cross-pressured on this issue," Pew has noted. "For example, more than half of Americans who generally support abortion rights—by saying it should be legal in 'most' or 'all' cases—also say the timing of an abortion (i.e., how far along the pregnancy is) should be a factor in determining its legality (56%)."
Meanwhile, "among those who say abortion should be against the law in most or all cases," nearly two-thirds (63 percent) would at least sometimes make exceptions for pregnancies that result from rape and nearly half (46 percent) "say it should be legal if the pregnancy threatens the health or life of the woman," with an additional 27 percent saying "it depends."
The Evolution of American Views
A strong pro-choice streak in America is nothing new. But there's evidence that in the two years since the Supreme Court released the Dobbs decision, overturning Roe, support for legal abortion has increased.
The percentage of Americans describing themselves as pro-choice is up, hitting 55 percent in 2022 for the first time since Gallup started measuring in 1995. It hasn't fallen below 50 percent since. Meanwhile, support for total abortion bans has dropped—down from 19 percent in 2021 to 12 percent in 2024, now tying record lows from the 1990s.
After years of young Americans turning against legal abortion, youth trends have now done an about-face, with the youngest U.S. adults far outpacing older counterparts in their pro-choice sentiment.
A whopping 76 percent of 18- to 29-year-olds in a recent Pew poll said abortion should be legal in most or all cases, compared to 61 percent of 30- to 49-year-olds and 57 percent to 59 percent of older cohorts.
Ten years ago, Pew found more modest generational differences. In 2014, just 56 percent of millennials, then the youngest adult cohort, said abortion should be legal in all or most cases. That's three percentage points fewer than among Gen Xers and four percentage points greater than among boomers, albeit quite a bit higher than the 42 percent of Silent Generation respondents who said the same.
In Gallup's surveys, 88 percent of young adults this year said abortion should be legal in at least some circumstances, up from 77 percent in 2021 and 74 percent in 2010. The jump was especially stark for those saying abortion should be legal under any circumstances, going from 25 percent in 2010 to 44 percent this year. Young folks in 2024 are also much more likely to call themselves pro-choice: 58 percent say they're pro-choice and 35 percent pro-life, compared to 39 percent and 50 percent in 2010.
Views on the morality of abortion may be shifting along with views on its legality. About 54 percent of Gallup poll respondents this year said abortion is morally acceptable, up from 47 percent in 2021, before Dobbs. The number saying it's morally wrong dropped from 46 percent to 34 percent.
What explains these shifts? Exposure to the reality of abortion bans may play a role, along with the kinds of abortion stories featuring strongly in news and popular culture.
For decades, the most prevalent image of an abortion-seeking woman was one choosing abortion because she didn't want a baby. Sometimes this was for sympathetic reasons, such as financial hardship, but it was always a choice.
In recent years, by contrast, the news has been filled with stories of women who very much want children but find that continuing a pregnancy threatens their lives, will end with a baby suffering and dying soon after birth, or will lead to similarly tragic circumstances. Front and center are stories of women for whom abortion is the only option compatible with compassion, health, and life.
Bans 'Already Proving To Be Life-Threatening'
As I interviewed pro-life people who oppose abortion bans, one idea that kept appearing was a fear that such laws put women's lives at risk.
This was sometimes framed as concern about attempted black market abortions. But more often it was concern for how bans could distort care for pregnant women, making medical professionals hesitant to act to save women's lives for fear of running afoul of abortion rules.
"A lot of this is already proving to be life-threatening," says Maureen Flatley, a 75-year-old pro-life Catholic in Boston who thinks the anti-abortion movement has taken some wrong turns since when she was first exposed to it in her 20s. "The positions that are being taken [now] are definitely too extreme."
"I don't like the idea that people run around saying, 'It's never medically necessary to have an abortion,'" says Worlow. "That's just not true. If you define an abortion as ending a baby's life [in utero], it is—in very rare circumstances—100 percent medically necessary to do, to prevent sepsis."
Trisha Butler, a mother of four in Tennessee and chair of the libertarian-leaning Liberal Party USA, is also concerned with the "second- and third-level consequences" of banning abortion, including how it could lead to things "like prosecuting women…who have miscarriages." While she personally identifies as pro-life, she tells me "my very uncomfortable compromise is…it has to be between a woman and her doctor. It has to be a medical thing."
'The Real Issue Is Bodily Autonomy'
This was another common theme in my interviews: that reproductive decisions must be left to medical professionals because doing otherwise invited too much intrusion by the state.
"It's a matter of privacy between the person who is pregnant and their physician," says Maura Alwyen, a 54-year-old property maintenance manager in Illinois. Alwyen is pro-life, but "if we start interjecting legal aspects into private matters, where does it stop?" she asks. "Everyone says 'slippery slope.' It's like, no, it's a well-waxed slide."
Marc Randazza, an intellectual property and First Amendment lawyer, likens support for abortion bans with wanting to force everyone to get a COVID-19 vaccine. "The real issue is bodily autonomy," he says.
"My co-Catholics are like, 'Well, what about the rights of the fetus?' I agree that's a living thing and it ought to have rights. And it sucks that it can't," says Randazza. "But the only way that that fetus can have rights is if we move the jurisdiction of the government from outside your body to inside your body. Once they're inside your body, there's no limit to what they can do in there."
"The government that has the power to tell you you can't have an abortion is the same government that has the power to tell you you have to have an abortion," he adds.
God, Love, and Liberty
Randazza is unabashedly Catholic and pro-life, but he worries that using religion to "coerce other people into social action" opens up a path to religious majority rule in ways that he won't like. "There's a reason that I quote 2 Corinthians 3:17 all the time—where you find God, you find liberty."
Leaving the morality of abortion between individuals and a higher power is another thing I heard repeatedly in my interviews.
Ali Elwell Zaiac, a firefighter and mother of one in Vermont, was raised "fundamentalist" and later went to theology school. She is pro-life enough that she and her husband decided to donate unused embryos from their IVF process. But God gave people free will, she tells me, and what people do with it is between them and God. You can't "love your neighbor" and then hate them because they get an abortion, she says.
"It's not up to us or the government to tell us whether or not we have to have children," adds Zaiac, noting that pregnancy "is so hard on your body" and can cause many health risks.
This was another common theme among those I interviewed: Even when personally opposed to abortion, many feel uncomfortable making this decision for everyone.
Walker-Williams, who gave a daughter up for adoption when she was younger, is "strongly opposed to abortion" and finds it "morally repugnant." But she says she "would never, never, never get in the middle between a woman's ability to choose for herself what she is capable of surviving and coping with."
Practical Concerns
For the "pro-life, but…" crowd, a world without abortion is still the goal. But many who define themselves this way try to be practical about what it will take to get there, and cognizant of the ways bans have unintended consequences.
Evans says she would "much rather empower people through education" and access to contraception than through bans that don't address the underlying issues driving unintended pregnancies.
"Women forever have tried to have abortions, and then they just died. It's good to have people that are still alive," says Zaiac.
Flatley, who has worked for decades as a child welfare advocate, worries that abortion bans will only fuel neglect and abuse of children once they are born. "Women who don't want to parent" are going to have kids "at the highest possible risk for abuse and neglect," she says. And the idea that the adoption system can pick up all the slack is laughable to her.
"I can tell you that as the Supreme Court rushed to overturn Roe, everyone around them skipped about 10 million steps to create an infrastructure that was adequate to support the unintended consequences," says Flatley. "If you're going to force people to have children, you need to be prepared, and nobody was prepared for the upshot of the Dobbs decision."
Flatley has seen firsthand the "appalling condition of the child welfare system in America" as well as flaws in the private adoption system. "We barely have enough adoption service providers to do the adoptions today, much less absorb the bandwidth that would be required" without legal abortion, she says. And "because there is inadequate bandwidth to actually execute the adoptions," you'll wind up in a situation where kids are just waiting in the foster care system or state care for years.
Finding Common Ground
As with so much in American life, politics complicates the issue. There was a time when being a Democrat or a Republican didn't necessarily signal where one fell on the pro-life/pro-choice divide, and evidence suggests that for ordinary folks this still might be the case. But Democrats have become so firmly encoded as the pro-choice party and Republicans as their pro-life opposition that it's nearly impossible for politicians from one or the other to embrace middle ground. It's de rigueur instead for them to wildly caricature or exaggerate the other side's views. This is perhaps always more intense during an election season, and will likely be all the more so with Kamala Harris—who has hit hard on this issue in recent years—stepping into President Joe Biden's shoes as the Democratic nominee.
It's in the vested interests of both parties to focus on where Americans differ on abortion rather than on where they find common ground. But there is a lot of common ground.
"It's rare to find someone who genuinely wants to destroy life," says Evans, suggesting that the idea that pro-choice activists "don't themselves like abortions" is something that unfortunately "gets lost a lot" in abortion discourse. "People need to understand that we're more alike than we are separate," she says.
This seems like a productive starting point for reaching some sanity on abortion policies.
The abortion activists—pro or anti—that grab attention tend to be outliers. According to basically all available polls, most Americans are willing to go beyond black-and-white thinking about the issue. They support limits, and they support exceptions. They trust women and medical professionals. They understand the problems that unwanted pregnancies can cause, and they don't dismiss the idea that fetuses have rights.
Americans are capable of separating their feelings about abortion's morality from their opinions about what should or shouldn't be against the law.
On abortion, Americans are largely moderates—and libertarians. Contrary to popular portrayals of diametrically opposed pro-choice and pro-life sides, they are looking for laws and candidates that reflect this. It's high past time for the politics of abortion to more closely mirror the reality of American views.
When the Supreme Court struck down Roe v. Wade, pro-lifers expected the ruling to be a watershed moment for their movement. And it was—just not in the way activists wanted or expected.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "'I'm Pro-Life, but...'."
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Abortion is the murder of a helpless innocent human being.
It represents the greatest genocide in earths history killing 750,000 pre born Americans every year.
The VAST majority of abortions are elective. Meaning the mother who performed the ONLY act possible to INVITE another human temporally inside her has reneged on that physical agreement.
In a mere 9 months the two could go their separate ways, alive, but abortion kills the baby.
The questions in all these polls are worded vaguely and often designed to elicit answers that can be misconstrued, taken out of context, by people with agendas.
A pro life woman fears irresponsible healthcare and this fear is twisted into support for elective abortion. I DON’T THINK SO!
Well said
Removing dead people from the grave yard is MURDER!!!! /s
F’En idiot.
The only thing more dominant than your idiocy is your bigotry on being an idiot.
You can't MURDER what has no inherent life to begin with.
A fetus isn't dead.
TJJ2000 is a to fetuses what Misek is to Jews.
Nobody can so passionately ignore the evidence that at six months a fetus is human like that idiot does, and not do it out of hatred. Even true believers in the birth canal fairy aren't so dogmatic.
Maybe he pushed an ex into a late term abortion and doesn't want to admit he's a monster.
Or maybe I don't think Women should be FORCED to reproduce by the government.
Every person should have rights to their own body.
If you can't even own yourself what can you own?
Pro-Life is as stupid as it gets. Enslave the Woman and the Fetus?
No. If you want to protect a life you so insist the Women is out to ?murder? you remove it from the Woman not ENSLAVE it to the Woman. This is just basic common-sense. Everyone should have the basic Individual Right to remove or eject whatever they deem necessary from their very own F'En body. It's none of the governments business.
If you cannot support your imaginary ?baby? freedom.
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
All the religious BS babble isn't going to change that.
And Gov-Guns aren't there for you to shove your religious BS onto everyone else.
When did the government force them to have sex?
When did the government force you to drive?
I guess we can assume every accident is MURDER! /s
Stupid; absolutely stupid.
Are you conflating a miscarriage with an intentional action that results in a death?
I’m conflating the distorted correlation between having sex and getting pregnant to driving and getting in an accident.
…but, but, but; You chose to drive so any ‘accident’ is your fault! Therefore; since [WE] Pro-Lifers can't ask the world to stop driving we'll just charge you all with murder! /s
An abortion is an accident?
Abortion is how you prevent reproduction.
Generally in the aftermath of an accident.
Pro-Life (in correlation to the comparison) would bring out the Gov-Guns and FORCE all accidents to build a new car for themselves.
Pregnancy is an accident? It just happens?
Someone intentionally driving their vehicle into another should have Gov-Guns protect that driver against interference should they get out and eliminate the survivors in the other vehicle?
“Pregnancy is an accident? It just happens?”
Yes; Just like accidents happen when people drive.
Just because they drive doesn’t mean they intended to be in an accident. Nor does it automatically make them guilty of murder “just because they chose to drive”.
Don’t be stupid. Being in an accident doesn’t allow you to “eliminate survivors” because that is TAKING away something they *inherently* still have post-accident.
However; Refusing to donate your body organs that would *GIVE* the other party of an accident a life has always been rightful so a *PERSONAL* right. The other party doesn’t get to Gov-Gun you down for a lung or a foot just because “you chose to drive”.
Needless to point out; This is comparing someone's adult life who had an *inherent* right to life in contrast to some fertilized egg that doesn't. The argument looses even if you want to pretend fertilized eggs are really adult people.
Abortion does not prevent reproduction. It merely destroys the results of reproduction which has already occurred.
Guvnah gov-guns, pregnancies don’t magically happen. It isn’t like ENB is in the kitchen making a sammich and she suddenly became pregnant. Pregnancy pounces is not a valid headline.
But in an accident, the driver at fault usually doesn’t go after the survivors in the other vehicles to exterminate their life. Maybe they could do that for convenience (no surviving witnesses). Or for other reasons that should remain private and be protected by guv-guns.
Who says the initial survivors of an intentional crash (or accident) have anything inherent? A sky daddy? The birth canal fairy? Gov-guns? If some Act Blue donor is on his way to make an attempt on the life of a certain politician, drives recklessly, and crashes into your vehicle, should gov-guns accept/allow him (or her or xi) to abort you?
My understanding of organ donors is that the status of a donor or non-donor does not impact the life saving efforts medical staff are to take.
I know biology has become a religious mystery, but those of us who came of age in the dark times, and who can separate ideology from science, knows that sex is programmed to lead to pregnancy. And pregnancy leads to babies.
Pretending what resides in that swollen belly is just a tumor (or other incidental clump of cells) is retarded.
And a reply to all 3 of you.
"Pretending what resides in that swollen belly is just a tumor is" 'just' "as retarded" as .........
saying abortion "merely destroys the results of reproduction which has already occurred" .... because ?babies? are just sitting in a waiting room for their magical 'board the plane/stork' theory??? /s
"My understanding of organ donors is that the status of a donor or non-donor does not impact the life saving efforts medical staff are to take." ... Your understanding is flawed. Nowhere does the nation allow the medical staff to Gov-Gun down others for organ donation.
If I cause an accident and cripple someone while driving I am responsible.
I will owe money. If I kill someone carelessly while driving I will go to jail.
Your comparison actually goes against your view.
And nothing about that should change giving Women the Individual Right to Fetal Eject. Any life-saving attempt medical bills should go to the Women who got pregnant and chose to Fetal Eject.
But there are no ‘life-saving’ attempts that need to be made by D.O.A. accident victims. Proclaiming they’re alive when they are not (or even if they are) doesn’t entitle anyone to Gov-Gun down others for their organ/body donation even if the driver was “carelessly driving” because taking-away others PERSONAL rights to their own body is more of a right then any imaginary right to ‘save a life’ that isn’t *inherent*.
Precisely why I describe this as: Pro-Life lobbying for Gov-Gun FORCED organ donation.
If they were forced to have sex then they were forced to reproduce.
If they choose perform reproductive acts that evolved for the specific purpose of of creating a baby, and when performed correctly by healthy adults is 100% going to result in a pregnancy then they've already made their choice.
They could have taken it in the ass , they could give a blowjob , they could give a hand job, they could use condoms, diaphragms, dams, etc. But if they choose to take a creampie in the puss they've made that reproductive choice right then.
They don't get to kill the offspring because they decide after that they didn't mean it.
To say otherwise is pure sophistry.
“If they were forced to have sex then they were forced to reproduce.”
...by Gov-Guns and moral busy-bodies who can’t mind their own F’En business?
^THAT is the problem.
The problem is you pretending an individual with unique DNA caused by an action of another citizen has no rights because it may be inconvenient.
Jeffsarc is inconvenient, yet we aren't allowed to murder them.
Ginormous clump of cells along with a pickled clump of cells.
Well put.
The problem is I don't have to pretend; The historical record proves it has "no right" to life. (As well investigated by Roe v Wade)
If you think otherwise then; Once again, Prove it.
Allow Fetal Ejection and prove it has an *inherent* right to life.
The debate is endless because it's all 'imaginary' without actuality (religious/faith based).
I don’t know why you continue to get hung up on this terminology or why it alludes you.
Reproduction: “the biological process by which new individual organisms – "offspring" – are produced from their "parent" or parents. There are two forms of reproduction: asexual and sexual.”
Gestation: “the period of development during the carrying of an embryo, and later fetus, inside viviparous animals (the embryo develops within the parent)”
I’ll break it down for you again: when a man creampies some watery tart, the act of reproduction has already taken place.
Some places are closer towards the latter, but nowhere in America are gov-guns forcing the former. Therefore, you invalidate your argument by insisting “…I don’t think Women should be FORCED to reproduce by the government.”
This concludes my TED talk.
“Reproduction: the biological *process*”
“the ?act? of reproduction has already taken place” Bullsh*t!!!
A ‘process’ IS NOT a single ‘act’.
The ‘process’ is EXACTLY what Gov-Guns are FORCING on Women against their own will.
If it was just a single ‘act’; the product of that ‘process’ would be a *real* child and not just some imaginary bullsh*t Pro-Life advocates keep insisting exists but won’t actually ALLOW it to exist in the real world only in their imagination.
I’m sorry, you’re right. Creampieing some watery tart doesn’t always lead to fertilization.
I think I see some of the disconnect here: it seems that most people consider the fertilization of the egg as the point where reproduction happened. Because if the egg isn’t fertilized, clearly the genetic sequences weren’t combined and reproduced. But it seems you don’t consider reproduction to have occurred until after the fetus has been ejected (thus your “forced reproduction” stance), is that a fair assessment?
Indeed. It doesn't matter if reproduction has occurred. No-one is entitled to a Woman's body against her will. That is reproductive slavery.
If it has an *inherent* right to life it can be ejected. If it doesn't it doesn't have any human rights anyways. Again; There is no such thing as one human having rights to another humans body. You'd think the world had moved-on from the 7-Cow wife-to-own for breeding but apparently not.
Course that doesn't mean she or her doctor can intentionally TAKE anyone else's *inherent* right to life away. Thus 'Fetal Ejection' not Stab-it. If Pro-Life was really about protecting life they'd address that right there instead of trying to turn Women into their own personal reproductive machines.
Or in simpler terms...
It doesn't require enslaving a Women to reproduce to make it illegal for a doctor to stab what one might think has inherent life (a human right).
And that's where you find Pro-Life true intentions.
They're not interested in actually 'protecting' anything. They're interested in FORCING it's creation.
I just find it a usual sign that you don't actually believe in your own argument when you have to lie specifically about the underlying facts.
Shrike with greatest economy ever.
Jeffsarc with no downsides to illegal immigration or welfare.
Babies are dead here.
Some people believe (unscientifically) that babies are not people. Even though that makes zero sense and has no basis in anything.
What baby?
Some people believe (unscientifically) they can imagine babies into existence and somehow believe they are real.
Well; You have you chance. Free the ?baby? and show the world your not just chuck full of BS imagination.
The only scientific basis is the presence of a life form with unique DNA.
Your bullshit is a religious belief sans a factual basis.
Babies are generally created from insemination as a result of fucking. Do you think they came from wishing really, really hard?
As for the rest of what you said, what the Hell does that even mean?
"The only scientific basis is the presence of a life form with unique DNA. "
Well if you don't want to be a complete hypocrite you better start gunning down other people for 'parts' so you can make that 'organ donation' or I mean ?baby? alive!!!!
You Pro-Lifers run that propaganda foundation all day long. DEMAND *my belief* is the way it is (baby, child, DNA, heart-beat); whatever it takes to BS your religion into politics. All of it easily defeated because you miss the BIGGEST factor about human rights ............................. Rights are *inherent* not Gov-Gun grants to others bodies.
Prove it.
Let it LIVE and set it free.
Anything else is just BS bigotry of your fairy-tale land imagination.
Exactly in 9 months the baby will be old enough to demonstrate that it doesn’t need its waste of skin mother any more.
It ages and develops to this point BECAUSE it is living.
Congratulations.
You just figured out the basis of the Roe v Wade ruling at 21-weeks.
Too bad you were too stupid to support it.
The youngest baby that lived outside the womb is now 17 weeks. Roe was based on curre t science.
Likewise, again, a 1 month old also can not live without assistance.
Please advocate for murdering 1 month Olds to remain consistent.
"1 month old also can not live without assistance"
They most certainly can. They *inherently* have life without anyone else connected to them. And here's another thing you'll object too. Nobody has a 'right' to others life-support machines.
It’s a semantical argument. That a baby isn’t self sufficient doesn’t abrogate the right of the mother to care for it. There’s no loophole for you here. So just stop.
You can’t protect a ‘right’ that doesn’t exist in the first place.
So just STOP trying to dictate everyone else’s life for them.
WHO is the aggressors on this subject????
Pro-Life is; because they can’t leave other people ALONE and they have nothing but imaginary-heads ran-wild with propaganda cliche’s and ZERO proof of *inherent* life existing. In fact their very legislative demands makes that line of proof ILLEGAL.
There’s no excuse for it. Short of Gov-Guns FORCING religion on the people.
As so blatantly obvious by Alito's *moral* standards.
Advocate for the legalized murder of a 1 month old.
Do it. Live by your definition.
If a mother abandons a baby to fend for itself, that’s a crime in every state. There is no legal basis to do otherwise. There’s no magical transformation when a baby passes through the internal wall into the outside world. It’s still a person before that happens.
Fetal Ejection in a medical facility isn't abandoning a fetus to fend for itself (ironically; an impossible situation put within comparison context).
You see; You had to make-up that LIE of a scenario to cover the other LIE where you demand your BELIEF (unsupported imagination) about "It’s still a person before that happens".
Otherwise you might have to come to *REALITY* terms that the 'pregnancy' isn't a baby, child, whole other person YET...
You can't produce a 'baby' just because you LIE to yourself about it's existence. So instead of facing *REALITY* you insist the 'government' FORCE some Woman to create what you LIE to yourself about.
Advocate murdering a 1 mo that requires another individual to feed it.
Do it. Live your convictions. You can't. Because you know your basis is false.
So Fetal Eject it and feed it.
You're still MILES away from Gov-Gunning down any Woman for her breast milk.
And I assure you, the whole "Give me Liberty or give me Death" isn't a new thing. The entire F'En nation was founded upon it by literally thousands who took that stance to its fullest extent.
You say that aborting a baby is both giving it freedom and death.
Thats not the phrase you’re quoting.
If you can’t figure out how to give it freedom alive.
You are just making-up BS in your head. The thing is NOT alive yet.
The only argument you have is between your BS imagination (belief) and reality. As I said before; It's easy to defeat Pro-Life BS because it's nothing but a big fat imaginary fairy-tale LIE.
I’m going to refute what you said with several points.
If you don’t refute each of them we can only conclude that you either don’t want to or can’t .
1. Sanity is demonstrated with the recognition and acceptance of reality aka truth.
2. Reality, truth is determined to the best of human capability with correctly applied logic and science.
This is the scientific definition of life.
“The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.“
Correctly applied logic and science proves for sane people that the human individual fetus as demonstrated with unique human DNA already exhibits all of these characteristics that define life. Its reproductive organs are developing just like yours probably still are.
This is the scientific definition of life. It has nothing to do with what’s in anyone’s head.
"Correctly applied logic"
If you cannot produce a living baby.
There is no living baby there.
No amount of psychological ramblings changes that.
Welcome to the *real* world outside your BS propaganda polluted head.
If you watched me encase an unbroken egg in concrete once hardened would the unbroken egg cease to exist?
You’re insane.
A 1 month old baby can't survive on its own either. Please advocate for killing any kid under the age of let's say... 8.
…and yet they do; every F’En day.
All night long they just survive while the parents are sleeping.
Apparently you've never been a parent. I don't remember ever getting a night's sleep with a one month old baby in the house.
Obviously not a parent. Thankfully.
Obviously wrong.
But don't let that stop you from making more personal judgements.
The personal judgement is from you pretending a living being is different inside the womb as compare to outside the womb based on a retarded belief in a magical birth canal fairy.
You made a ridiculous comment that babies can survive on their own. That isn't accurate for any mammal let alone humans. No human being that ever raised a child could even contemplate that nonsense whatever their opinions on abortion. I've said many times here that in my opinion there are circumstances wherein abortion is justified. But I don't deny the humanity of the child. That's just lunatic raving.
You’re completely irrational when it comes to this subject. You should just stop.
“pretending a living being is different inside the womb as compare to outside the womb”
And the BS makes a complete turn-about.
IF there is NO difference; Outside the womb please.
FREE the Fetus and the Woman.
It literally SOLVES the whole debate and doesn't violate anybodies Individual Rights.
The child in a womb is surviving as well dumbfuck.
Then there is ZERO excuse not to let it be outside the womb.
Oh wait; Isn’t that exactly what you Pro-Life psycho-nut-jobs are trying to make ILLEGAL? Did you not just DEFEAT your own argument?
“It represents the greatest genocide in earths history”
Oh, so this is a genocide, but the Holocaust wasn’t?
Forgive me if I doubt your ability to recognize atrocity. Your Holocaust-denial thing gets in the way..
The difference, key elements of one has been refuted with correctly applied logic and science.
The supposed victims of the refuted one are on trial in the United Nations for perpetrating their own genocide in Gaza today.
"The Science" that has to defy reality???
If "The Science" is correct; set the darn thing free already.
Support the Individual Right to fetal ejection.
I have, many times here and you know as does most everyone that nobody has ever refuted anything that I’ve said here, including that.
All I need to do is push a button to demonstrate it once again.
Your BS blabber how others should manage their own life is reality?
Yep; Sounds like a tyrant to me.
We’ve all refuted your Holocaust denial dozens of times. The problem is that you’re severely delusional due to your irrational hatred of Jews.
I've refuted your Women-Slavery dozens of times. The problem is that you're severely delusional due to your irrational hatred of Individual Liberty and inability to mind your own F'En business.
This is what you’re saying about yourself when you parrot “refuted”.
1. You’re upset by something I’ve said.
2. You’re too stupid to actually refute it.
3. You’re too bigoted to consider that what you can’t refute might be true.
4. You’re too stupid to consider your dilemma in silence.
5. You’re so angry that you’ll make a fool of yourself trying to anger me too.
6. In the case of a hasbara troll you’re willing to say all that about yourself for a few shekels.
Like I say to all fuckwits, prove it.
Clearly describe how you have specifically refuted anything that I’ve said with correctly applied logic and science AND provide a link to it so we can all fact check your claim.
I can refute the Pro-Life BS all day long because it's nothing but a big fat fairy-tale of a LIE (propaganda).
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom.
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
easy-peasy without a speckle of "unicorn" imagination.
But I see self-projection runs rampant in this crowd as well.
You haven’t refuted anything.
You’re simply calling abortion “baby freedom”. But it isn’t freedom because the baby necessarily dies.
You’re simply calling natural childbirth, the uninterrupted result of pregnancy which is the uninterrupted result of the choice to have sex, “government forced reproduction”. Thats a lie because “reproduction” includes having sex which the government doesn’t force upon anyone.
Your statements are full of errors demonstrating you to be, there’s no easy way to say this, an idiot. Your errors don’t refute anything.
Removing your errors, which you are incapable of doing yourself , your statement reads,
“If you don’t support abortion, you support banning it”.
That doesn’t REFUTE what I’ve said, that IS what I said.
Your LIES....
FALSE; A 'pregnant' Woman =/= A 'baby'.
FALSE; Not being a 'baby' =/= 'a loss of freedom'.
FALSE; 'sex' =/= 'reproduction'.
Which leads right into pretending the choice to have 'sex' dismisses Gov-Guns forcing the 'reproduction' process. They are NOT the same thing no matter how much Pro-Life wants to "because I say-so" that they are. Not everyone who chooses to have 'sex' chooses to 'reproduce'.
This is bloody pre-schooler logic FFS.
I didn’t write that YOU DID, if they’re lies, they’re yours.
If you want to refute something that I’ve said you’ll have to quote me.
I’m not dismissing the need to ban abortion, the murder of a helpless innocent human being, you are.
My responses to you are simply exposing all your errors that you refuse to recognize.
Yes banning abortion means forcing women not to murder their babies.
I don’t dismiss that, that’s what I want.
You’ve tried to refute that by denying that a fetus is:
A human baby
Living
Deserving the right to life
Correctly applied logic and science refutes all that.
What else have you got besides simply that you want women to have the right to murder their babies?
I see the sane part of the debate is over; enter the blatant bigotry.
Have you figured out how to put your imaginary human baby into the real world living yet (hint hint: fetal ejection)???? NO??? Then you’re just making up BS in your head.
Your refusal to recognize correctly applied science and logic demonstrates that it is you who doesn’t bring sanity to this discussion.
Hopefully the caregivers helping you control the voices in your head will recognize that your participation in social media here is counterproductive to your treatment and act accordingly.
These stories are more often about the failure of the hospital administrators.
Is there any legal basis for not delivering a baby after the membranes have ruptured?
THAT'S ABORTION! That's why.
Support the Individual Right to Fetal Ejection.
Pretty sure abortion =/= delivery….
Banning delivery (fetal ejection) certain =/= delivery.
There you go; You have your correct solution to the debate.
An Individual Right to Fetal Ejection or (delivery at will) if you want to call it that.
Course; Pro-Life will never allow that because it will end up proving far-beyond any doubt that their fairy-tale BS-Lies & Propaganda is exactly that; BS propaganda. It would prove far-beyond any doubt that their 'murder' charges are entirely 'imaginary' and what they're really after is Gov-Guns to FORCE a Woman to create what their 'imaginations' have already dreamed-up in their polluted heads.
Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy either spontaneously (miscarriage) or through a procedure that kills the fetus and then removes it from the mother.
Fetal ejection would necessitate the fetus being removed whole and alive and then placed somewhere (surrrogate, incubator, artificial womb, etc.)
In other words:
I can’t let you into my club and then tell you it’s time to leave and proceed to hack off your arms and legs or drive a spike through your spinal cord then ask someone to remove you from the premises.
vs.
Having the bouncer throw you out at closing time.
"through a procedure that kills the fetus and then removes it from the mother."
That's not true. The vast majority of abortions are accomplished by taking two pills. No procedure or removal required.
Now tell us all that elective third-trimester abortions are common. That should make you seem even more credible.
So every miscarriage is an abortion and against State LAW?
But you do hit upon the very point I’ve been making all along.
WHY isn’t Pro-Life legislating the removal ‘procedure’????
WHY are they trying to FORCE the Woman to Reproduce instead???
Trying to find the answers to those question pretty much proves the Pro-Life movements real intentions are to enact reproductive slavery and has nothing to do with ‘saving’ anything.
Frankly; I really don’t care if doctors poke and crumble because I don't believe there is a person with any inherent right to life there pre-viable and even if there was a 0.01% of it I'd chalk it up to a mercy kill. But if Pro-Life psycho whack-jobs insist their ‘imaginations’ (I say-so: they are babies, children, people) aren't complete BS let them prove it.
At gunpoint?
You’re a fucking senile moron. And a total joke here. Fuck you and your infanticidal pinko bullshit Hank. But you won’t respond because you’re a cowardly, gibbering moron.
The 42 schaißtposters above have grey boxes to show me for their screeching and carpetbiting. The only man among them with an ounce of guts and same IQ, Robert Dear, is in prison for shooting a cop and a bunch of bystanders at a women's clinic in Colorado Springs. That's where NORAD missile defenses protect us from attack by force-initiating fanatics of a slightly different persuasion.
I haven't grey boxed you Hank only because trying to follow your logic is like playing 3d chess.
“I DON’T THINK SO! “
That’s right … YOU don’t think so. Who are you to dictate what everybody else has to think / do ?
Laws are enforced by people protecting the innocent and helpless from insane murderers.
Actually laws are there to ensure Individual Liberty and Justice for all.
And LIBERTY of the ‘pregnancy’ (and the Woman) is EXACTLY what Pro-Life is AGAINST.
dumb*ss.
That liberty doesn’t extend to murder.
You’re insane.
For those of you who agree that the fetus is alive but simply deny that a fetus is a person, based on its age, this proves you’re wrong.
Firstly there is no rational correlation between age and the definition of a person or the right to life.
Secondly since there is no mention of age discrimination against the right to life in the constitution, your position is unconstitutional.
Let me walk you through the correctly applied science and logic, so you don’t become lost.
This easy to follow string of definitions clearly demonstrate that the authority that gives meaning to all language, dictionaries, recognizes the unborn as persons,
Unborn unique DNA = individual = human being = person = child = baby
Definition of DNA fingerprinting
the use of a DNA probe for the identification of an individual
Definition of individual
A person
Definition of human being
“any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.”
Definition of person
“a human being, whether an adult or child:
Definition of baby
A human fetus
Definition of child
A human fetus
Dictionary.com
Now the choice is once again yours.
Recognize the truth that a fetus is a living human person, being sane, or don’t and be an insane advocate of murder.
"but simply deny that a fetus is a person, based on its age"
No, it's denied because of level of development and ability to survive. Its age is irrelevant.
"your position is unconstitutional."
You mean except for every Supreme Court decision ever? Because as many times as abortion has been adjudicated, it's constitutionality has been upheld every time. So this is a belief you hold, not a fact. It is as valid and truthful as your Holocaust denial: not at all.
"Let me walk you through the correctly applied science and logic, so you don’t become lost."
Oh, this should be hilarious. Proceed.
"Unborn unique DNA = individual"
Right out of the gate, you are wrong. To be an individual, you need to be a separate entity. A pre-viable fetus isn't, and never can, survive as an individual.
"= human being"
"human being" is also false. A human being is a fully-formed person capable of survival. Again, not what a nonviable fetus is.
"= person"
Now you're going even further astray. Personhood is a legal distinction, not a biological one. Biological and legal are different, in case you're confused.
"= child = baby"
A quick structural critique: putting these at the end of your illogic chain is stepping backwards. You should put them after "individual" and before "human being". It would still be wrong, but it would at least flow better.
A child and a baby are both post-birth distinctions. People use them colloquially to refer to a pregnancy, but that doesn't make it an accurate use of the words.
"Dictionary.com"
You've been called out on this numerous times. That is a user-edited online dictionary. I could literally insert a definition for "baby" that reads "a tree". It's as useful for accurate definitions of words as a potato masher is for slicing meat.
"Recognize the truth that a fetus is a living human person"
Because your logic, which also concludes that the Holocaust didn't happen, and your definitions, which can be edited by anyone to say anything, prove it? Why don't you just cite phrenology as proof that blacks are less intelligent than whites?
You are denying the science and logic of what DNA fingerprinting actually does. Spelled out in the dictionary for you.
In all cases you deny the factual meanings of words you use as defined by dictionaries. If you think that you have refuted the veracity of dictionary definitions, prove it.
I’m afraid to ask how you determine the meaning of words.
By your own admission you have chosen insanity.
"You are denying the science and logic of what DNA fingerprinting actually does"
How does this in any way mean a fetus is a person?
"DNA fingerprinting is a method used to identify living things based on samples of their DNA. Instead of looking at the whole sequence of a person’s DNA, these techniques look at the presence or absence of common markers that can be quickly and easily identified."
All it can do is identify the DNA of a fetus, not whether or not that fetus is viable, nor whether a fetus is legally a person. It's like you think laying one brick on the ground (crookedly, no less) means you've built a house.
"Spelled out in the dictionary for you."
Spelled out in only one dictionary, which can be edited by any idiot to say whatever they want it to. When your "dictionary" allows for "dog" to be defined as "a large body of water", it's useless as a dictionary.
"I’m afraid to ask how you determine the meaning of words."
By finding consensus definitions from multiple, credible sources.
This isn't a problem with dictionaries. It's a problem with the only dictionary that you choose to acknowledge and cite.
Like most of your sources of "information", some which claim the Holocaust didn't happen, you only choose ones that say what you want to hear, regardless of their credibility or believability.
You obviously read the dictionary definitions that I provided, because you denied them.
You obviously read and understood how the definitions demonstrate that a fetus is an individual person because you suggested alternate sequence.
You haven’t refuted the Dictionary, the definitions or their meaning because there is no problem with them.
You refuse to recognize this reality demonstrating that you have chosen insanity.
Trolling wont change these facts.
You’re also completely full of shit, if that wasn’t already obvious enough.
“ Dictionary.com is an online dictionary whose domain was first registered on May 14, 1995.[1] The primary content on Dictionary.com is a proprietary dictionary based on Random House Unabridged Dictionary”
Wiki
Never clumpers want to capriciously terminate the preborn.
If you actually READ this article, you will see that there are SOME people who are smart and ethically-morally-spiritually advanced enough, to see that there are categories of behavior that are BAD but should NOT be outlawed! Duh and double-duh! Shall we also outlaw and-or micromanage bad haircuts, messy housekeeping, bad breath, divorce, over-eating, drinking too much booze, and voting for authoritarian assholes? I could go on…
If we were honest, we'd admit that MANY abortions are the results of birth control failures and-or recreational "sleeping around" with people that we have no intention of reproducing with. So... All ye authoritarians and micromanagers... Shall we outlaw "sleeping around" and incompetent use of birth control? Equip all places where people might fuck, with spy cameras? Or perhaps also mandatory embedded brain scanners so that Government Almighty can see whether or not you intend to reproduce?
Fire up the klaxons!!! "Ah-OOOOO-Gah! Ah-OOOOO-Gah! Unprotected fucking without intent to reproduce detected! Ah-OOOOO-Gah! Ah-OOOOO-Gah!"
Or, people have the authority to make choices AND commensurately the responsibility to accept the consequences of them.
Murder to escape responsibility isn’t such a choice in any civilized society.
Murdering cancer is escaping one's own responsibility????
By who's judgement? Yours and your every cell is sacred BS?
Believe what you want in YOUR life and leave everyone else ALONE.
You’re comparing a malignant tumor with a mother’s own offspring?
Hey You PervFected malignant tumor You! See below, twat stupid, cancerous, and EVIL shit cums from YOUR preferred, pre-verted, pre-farted, perverted policies!
Oklahoma now vying with Idaho for most fanatical!
https://news.yahoo.com/woman-cancerous-pregnancy-told-wait-215500885.html
Woman with Cancerous Pregnancy Was Told to Wait in Parking Lot Until She Was ‘Crashing’
In contrast to calling something what it clearly is-not?
And repeating that LIE endlessly.
It's no more an 'offspring' than it is a 'malignant tumor'.
offspring [n] - an individual *born* of a parent
individual [n] - existing as a distinct entity : *separate*
A baby isn’t the offspring of the mother? WTF?
“OMG!!! Reality! No, no, no; don’t make me face reality!” /s
Here’s another dose for the propaganda ran-wild.
Its not a baby, child or person either by Pre-BS standards.
Before all the brainwashing propaganda it was correctly identified as a Woman who is pregnant.
A perfect example of how repeating LIES and propaganda leads to brain damage.
there are SOME people who are smart and ethically-morally-spiritually advanced enough, to see that there are categories of behavior that are BAD but should NOT be outlawed!
What exactly is BAD about abortion? If it's just a clump of cells, not fundamentally different from a cancer, as you suggest below, what's the ethical or moral or spiritual problem with getting rid of it?
In exactly the same way YOU are nothing more than a clump of cells.
The main difference being, YOU advocate murder.
The main difference is HE has an *inherent* right to life.
Someone has to TAKE that life to lose it.
A Women doesn't have to grant that right at her expense.
Clear as black and white w/o all the religious BS.
Birth control is less harmful to the body of a womb slave than abortion is. Abortion is also time, trouble, and money that is best avoided. The use of the Long Arm of The Law to "fix" all of this shit? It is udder CRAP! Busybodies, please get OUT of between a womb slave and her doctor!
If You know exactly WHAT a "soul" is, when it is imparted, and what exactly human rights are or should be, and can PROVE it with universally observable, verifiable data, then PLEASE show us your data! Many Nobel Prizes await You!
Birth control is less harmful to the body of a womb slave than abortion is. Abortion is also time, trouble, and money that is best avoided.
That sounds more like inconvenient than "BAD". Certainly nothing where we're talking about ethical, moral, or spiritual problems. So, you're saying the people in the article are morally, ethically, or spiritually retarded?
"So, you’re saying the people in the article are morally, ethically, or spiritually retarded?"
You ask me this after I posted... "If you actually READ this article, you will see that there are SOME people who are smart and ethically-morally-spiritually advanced enough, to see that there are categories of behavior that are BAD but should NOT be outlawed!"
They are smart, wise, and benevolent enough to NOT advocate that FORCE AND VIOLENCE of anti-freedom Government Almighty LAWS should enforce their preferences! THEY (unlike MANY self-righteous punishment-loving power-pig authorShitarians who post on these pages) are wise enough to see and acknowledge the SHARP limits of "doing good" with the tools of the Evil One, which are lies, force, and fear! AND slavery and womb-slavery!
That's just begging the question. If there are no moral, ethical or spiritual implications to abortion, why should they even have a preference for others? And if there are such implications, what exactly are they?
"And if there are such implications, what exactly are they?"
Hello, I've already answered! Wasted time, effort, and money, and damage to the bodies of womb-sales (abortion being more damaging that decent and effective birth control) are "such implications", HELLO??!!? Ya gonna ask the question AGAIN? WHAT is Yourt Preferred Answer, that GAWD (Government Almighty's Wrath Delivers) TOLD You that every sperm is sacred?
Well, GOD told me that Government Almighty's Wrath Delivers TONS of harmful unintended side effects, and should NOT be used to enforce the whims of busy-modies!!!
Now that's some completely circular reasoning to evade an obvious conclusion. Now wastes of time, effort or money are moral spiritual and ethical wrongs.
And YOUR PervFected "obvious conclusion" is twat???? That "abortion doctors" and womb-slaves should be punished severely for favoring the life of a womb-slave over the "life" of a non-viable CANCER LUMP in womb-slave's womb? HOW EVIL can you get, and keep on making excuses and repeating the same lies?
Some people are insane enough to believe that the inconvenience of the mother outweighs the life of the child.
Or you could just fetal eject and save that ‘life’.
Oh wait; Maybe it doesn’t have ‘life’ after all?
Maybe it’s not really a ?child? yet?
That day your own imaginary fairy-tales (faith) came out and bit you in the *ss.
But you got one part of that right. According to Pro-Life; a Women’s Body rights are just an inconvenience to 3rd party nosy busy-bodies.
It’s a child. There is no biological basis for saying otherwise. Case closed.
Glad I could clear that up for you.
And the religious dictator shows it's true identity.
I'm starting to realize why democrats claim to not be biologists now.
A fetus is nothing like cancer.
Hello, moron? HELLO?!?!?!?
Oklahoma now vying with Idaho for most fanatical!
https://news.yahoo.com/woman-cancerous-pregnancy-told-wait-215500885.html
Woman with Cancerous Pregnancy Was Told to Wait in Parking Lot Until She Was ‘Crashing’
Not Dead Enough laws...
Audra Worlow thinks of herself as pro-life.
She can think of herself as a three-headed purple flying dog that speaks ancient Babylonian. That doesn't make her one. She's pro-choice, as are the other women in the article. Hell, they're pretty much parroting Planned Parenthood talking points, only Brown has her head too far up her own butt in the pro-choice bubble to see it. I could make a stronger case that I'm moderately pro-choice, even though I support "draconian" restrictions like 15-week, or even 12-week bans that still don't interfere with roughly 90%-95% of abortions. The entire issue is framed as you're either for abortion on demand until delivery or you're for a total ban from conception. That's why the whole abortion debate, like this article, is utterly retarded. The vast majority of people aren't for either. They can differentiate between a clump of cells and unborn baby. Only the worshipers of the holy rite of abortion and the hard-line pro-lifers get their panties in a twist if you don't drink their Kool-Aid. Right now, that's playing in favor of the pro-choice side. The pro-lifers are pushing for an idiotic maximalist position that there's no consensus for beyond their own little bubble. A smarter pro-life movement, and Brown would be here complaining about the exact opposite.
I have to admit, though, it is pretty funny watching an ostensibly libertarian magazine unironically supporting a guy saying:
My co-Catholics are like, 'Well, what about the rights of the fetus?' I agree that's a living thing and it ought to have rights. And it sucks that it can't,"
I say that cancer cells ought to have rights, too! And it sucks that cancer cells can't have rights! ... Twat a NON-libertarian that I am!
Speaking of rights for cancer cells, where does that take us?
Oklahoma now vying with Idaho for most fanatical!
https://news.yahoo.com/woman-cancerous-pregnancy-told-wait-215500885.html
Woman with Cancerous Pregnancy Was Told to Wait in Parking Lot Until She Was 'Crashing'
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/molar-pregnancy/symptoms-causes/syc-20375175
From there, we see that MOLAR PREGNANCIES ARE NEVER VIABLE!!! Yet fascist assholes like sore-in-the-cunt cuntsorevaturds want to endanger women in the Sacred Name of Unique Human DNA, which is present in a womb-slave!
From the listed source…
There are two types of molar pregnancy — complete molar pregnancy and partial molar pregnancy. In a complete molar pregnancy, the placental tissue swells and appears to form fluid-filled cysts. There is no fetus.
In a partial molar pregnancy, the placenta might have both regular and irregular tissue. There may be a fetus, but the fetus can’t survive. The fetus usually is miscarried early in the pregnancy.
You're likening a human being to a cancer. Well, at least you're speaking for yourself, I guess.
SQRLSY isn’t a real living thing, it is a soulless abomination with no right to exist. Destroy it at the first opportunity.
Many people find it useful to equate others to cancer (or some other disease). It then justifies killing them with a clear conscience.
In a partial molar pregnancy, the cancer and the "human being" are the one and the same! And certain authorShitarian power-pig micromanaging self-righteous busy-bodies apparently will endanger the lives of women (AKA mere "womb slaves") in the pretenses that they can "split the baby" and SAVE it, contrary to ALL of modern medicine!
PLEASE show us Your Baby-Splitting Live-Saving Miracles, Oh All-Knowing One! (But also try NOT enslaving ALL of us while You do this shit to us all?)
I say that cancer cells ought to have rights, too!
It’s because you are a fucking idiot.
WHO is the fucking idiot here, when shit is sore-in-the-cunt cuntsorevaturd voters and Over-Lards who saddle us with the below SHIT, pray tell? It ain't me, voting for this udder CRAP!!!
Oklahoma now vying with Idaho for most fanatical!
https://news.yahoo.com/woman-cancerous-pregnancy-told-wait-215500885.html
Woman with Cancerous Pregnancy Was Told to Wait in Parking Lot Until She Was ‘Crashing’
It shows that the pro-abortion propaganda has been successful in confusing people into violating their own principles.
There is a lot of debate from the anti-abortion side about what circumstances are reasonable exceptions. The most consistent position is no exceptions outside of life of the mother/child. On the pro-abortion side you will almost never hear them draw actual lines on where it shouldn't be permitted. My opinion is that the start of the conversation needs to be on the indisputable fact that the child is a separate human life in-utero and everyone should take personal responsibility. I'm ok with plan B, but anything beyond that should be done out of medical necessity. I thought Plan B was part of a "rape kit" anyway, so let's take that off the table. The incest exception is, at best, a eugenic argument (and I agree we don't need a bunch of inbreds) but I think most of those cases can and should be included in the rape category.
There are too many options to avoid pregnancy for any reasonable person to say "kill the baby if you want at any point before birth."
Thank YOU for choosing our options for us all! Twat a reasonable and benevolent person You must be! Shit is indeed Noble to be SOOOO concerned about violating Your Principles about twat the principles of the Merely Micromanaged Mortals SHOULD be!
Dobbs changed NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from Roe v Wade Post-Viable.
All recent change was done ONLY in the Pre-Viable arena.
Define the word viable. It literally means able to live. A 1 week old fetus will continue to live absent a miscarriage or humans poisoning it.
God damn man.
Like those bumbs who continue to live off the welfare state?
If it only saves one life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /s
It is entirely a leftard argument.
You can't stop my welfare checks; it'll kill me! /s
And ‘viability’ had nothing to do with the right of the baby to live, or of the mother’s responsibilities as such. When you get down to it these people just want to have the option to murder their own children for the sake of convenience.
Rights are *inherent*.
Not Gov-Gunned DEMANDS to use other people’s body against their will.
Next Up; Gov-Gun DEMANDED rapping .... Because every Woman has 'potential' life inside her. It is literally frightening how far the 'You don't own yourself' could go down the road.
No, rights. You’re very confused in this subject.
No. You do not have a 'right' to other people's body parts.
The amazing part is how you try to pretend you do.
It is rather simpler to be clear about what we are talking about when we use the term abortion.
Abortion = the deliberate killing of a developing viable fetus while in a woman's uterus and its subsequent removal from the uterus.
Abortion can be MEDICALLY NECESSARY due to risk of death or impaired health of woman or it can be ELECTIVE, which covers every other reason or excuse for the abortion.
Any other similar procedure for medical condition is not an abortion.
Once we agree on what Abortion is, and what it is not, then we can stop the screaming and hysteria and can have a reasonable conversation.
"the deliberate killing of a developing viable fetus"
No, abortion, and specifically abortion under Roe, is regulated after viability. Legal abortion before viability is the moderate position on abortion. Calling an abortion a killing is not anything close to moderate or reasonabke.
"its subsequent removal from the uterus."
No, most abortions are medicinal, not surgical. Nothing has to be removed because it is flushed out naturally by the body.
"Once we agree on what Abortion is, and what it is not, then we can stop the screaming and hysteria and can have a reasonable conversation."
You should start by finding out what abortion actually is. Right now, you are in the "hysteria" category. And no reasonable conversation involves calling abortion "killing".
Deliberately ending the life of a living being is killing it. You may not like the starkness of that word, but it is accurate, not hysterical.
Abortions can be medicinal or surgical, regardless, the dead fetus and associated contents are removed from the uterus, whether mechanically or by the body's natural response.
So, are you ready to discus elective abortion?
Sure. Are you ready to admit a fertilized egg isn't a person?
A fertilized egg in a human female, is a human, albeit in a very early stage of development. Your consideration of the term viable, is extremely narrow. When a fetus is alive and developing it is viable, in that the likelihood of it continuing to live and develop to the point of birth is greater than not, absent external influence.
You are only considering viability in the future environment, not in the present, in terms of the developing human.
In agriculture, seeds are tested for viability, not because they are immediately ready to produce fruit, vegetables or whatever, but because the chance that they will grow into mature plants is greater than the chance they will not.
In IVF, fertilized eggs are tested to determine viability as well, not because they can survive sitting in a petri dish but to see if the chance they can develop is likely.
As for personhood, I am not certain what you mean by that. If, by person, you mean a unique individual with characteristics, temperament and preferences that can be identified as distinct and separate from another, then even the human created at conception is unique. (let's please not get into Identical twins). Identify is developmental just as the physical body.
I am radically pro choice. I think it should be legal for me to abort any and all progressives whenever I want.
If you have one living in your house; only progressives would object.
Ironically; on the same bases as Pro-Life objects to pre-viable abortion.
"I can't live unless I'm living off of someone else!" /s
She can think of herself as a three-headed purple flying dog that speaks ancient Babylonian. That doesn’t make her one.
Had the same thought when I read the headline, and sure enough that's essentially what's being said.
Essentially both 'pro-life' and 'pro-abortion' have significant overlap in the middle and yet people want to pretend that isn't the case.
The biggest difference that I could point to is the extreme ends of both that either want no abortion ever and then those who want abortion right up to being born. They exist, of course, but the majority of people seem to view it as either being in favor of the unborn generally (pro-life) and the mother generally (pro-abortion).
The thing that should be pointed out is the mother has agency and can advocate for themselves; the unborn child doesn't and can't.
It's one of the few cases where leftists think that the person without agency that can not advocate for themselves is a subhuman that one can kill without repercussion. It's also worth mentioning that planned parenthood was established as an explicitly eugenic organization intended to wipe out the scourge of minorities and low IQ whites. They have also been tremendously successful at that particular game since their inception. Some people want to pretend they are a nicer and gentler organization with different goals in the modern era, but if that's true one wonders why they continue with the same actions as they've always taken.
It's enough to make one wonder if the same action can be both good and evil merely because of the justifications used. If that seems ethically suspect, it's only because it is.
It's a conflict of natural rights between the babies right to life and the mothers right to bodily autonomy, so there must be a line drawn somewhere to delineate the area where those rights come into conflict. Where that line is drawn is the crux of the argument, but as noted there is general agreement on where that line should be outside of the far ends of both groups. We shouldn't favor either the religious fundamentalists or the nihilists on this one, and yet that's mostly who we hear from.
PP is run by a bunch of soulless, neo Marxist ghouls.
"the majority of people seem to view it as either being in favor of the unborn generally (pro-life) and the mother generally (pro-abortion)."
That's not true. No one is "in favor" of one or the other. Certainly not "the unborn", which is just a PR term created by anti-abortionists.
People aren't stupid, nor are they either anti-abortion or evil baby-killers. They are very aware of the many issues involved. It isn't just a false dichotomy between "the mother" and "the fetus". There are issues of government overreach, religious/moral coercion, individual rights, definitions of personhood, distrust of others (especially the government) arbitrarily prosecuting doctors and pregnant women, viability, and where the line between potential person and actual person is drawn, among the many, many larger issues at play in abortion.
"the unborn child doesn’t and can’t."
That it is a child/person/individual after conception is a heavily disputed opinion. You can't just claim that everyone has to accept the anti-abortion belief as a fundamental truth. It isn't even a majority belief, let alone an unassailable fact.
If people are being honest, they'd start from the point where everyone agrees there is a person involved (birth) and work their way back with proof. Expecting everyone to accept a minority conclusion as truth is bad faith.
"explicitly eugenic organization"
You want people to take you seriously when you think "Several generations ago, this may or may not have been true. It's definitely not now, but you have to pretend it's relevant because ... reasons" is a valid argument in a debate over personhood? Why don't you tell us what the Tories believed at the Founding? It's just as relevant to political debates today (so, not at all).
"It’s a conflict of natural rights between the babies right to life and the mothers right to bodily autonomy"
Whether a fetus has rights is the most fundemental issue (among many) in the abortion debate. And almost no one, except the most extreme anti-abortionists, think that a fertilized egg is a person. It's not a fundamental truth that we all have to accept, it's a deeply disputed interpretation that the fringe believes.
"so there must be a line drawn somewhere to delineate the area where those rights come into conflict"
Yes, that's the point. Viability is the most logical point. The earliest point at which a fetus has been delivered and survived is easily defensible. Further back that that becomes increasingly problematic. Fertilization is indefensible.
"We shouldn’t favor either the religious fundamentalists or the nihilists on this one"
Agreed. If we look at the question differently and ask, "When does a fertilized egg become enough like a living, breathing human to be considered the same?" or "What constitutes a person?" or even "Is the ability to survive independently necessary for personhood?". And don't pretend to be confused by what "independently" means. That's such a tired shtick.
I believe if you said to most people, "This is the point at which a fetus can live on its own", the vast majority would agree that it was a person. Even if you said, "Out of the billions of fetuses in the history of the world, one has survived delivery at this point", I think the majority would agree that all fetuses at that point should be considered a person. But a fertilized egg? Six weeks, when most can't know they're pregnant and the first major organ is still a month away from developing? Thirteen weeks when the brain and lungs haven't developed yet? Those are much more problematic.
And the idea that the government would have the power to prosecute doctors and women? People are rightfully terrified of that sort of scenario. This decision should always favor the doctor, not the lawyer. The individual, not the government. The mother, not the politician.
That’s not true. No one is “in favor” of one or the other. Certainly not “the unborn”, which is just a PR term created by anti-abortionists.
Broadly speaking pro-life individuals base their arguments around the unborn.
Broadly speaking pro-abortion supporters base their arguments around the mother.
This isn't really even a question, so it's weird that you can't seem to acknowledge it. Are you wholly ignorant of rhetoric?
Also, the notion that the term 'unborn' is a creation of anti-abortionists is absurd at face value. This has been a term for far longer than America has existed.
When your very first sentence is provably idiotic, there really isn't an incentive to read your word-salad nonsense is there?
"Broadly speaking pro-life individuals base their arguments around the unborn."
Broadly speaking, anti-abortion individuals base their arguments around the fantasy that a fertilized egg is a person.
"Broadly speaking pro-abortion supporters base their arguments around the mother."
Broadly speaking, pro-choice supporters base their arguments around the reality that a woman is a person.
There is no such thing as a "pro-abortion" person. No one, ever, in any way, at any time, in any observed or recorded way, has ever been in favor of abortion. No one is out there advocating for women to abort their pregnancies. No one has, unsolicited, approached a pregnant woman and said, "You know, you should get an abortion.".
Claiming that anyone is pro-abortion is the sort of sick lie that is typical of the fanatical fringe of the right. A LOT of people (far more than there are anti-abortion people) think it should be the choice of the one who is pregnant, not a stranger and not the government.
"This isn’t really even a question"
Really? Because lot of people are focused on the larger issues of government overreach, religious coercion, legislation based on arbitrary moral beliefs, the right to personal medical decision-making, and individual liberty (including bodily autonomy).
I'm not focused on the woman at all. I believe that people have the fundamental Constitutional right to bodily autonomy. I believe that a random stranger's personal moral beliefs are irrelevant to anyone else.
I believe that the government shouldn't be allowed to invade such a personal and private realm without, at the very least, being required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that their premise is valid. And, as of now, the anti-abortion argument has failed to do so.
Actually, that's not true. They haven't even tried to establish their beliefs as true. They just choose use the power of government to force everyone to live by their arbitrary and largely rejected beliefs.
How about we live by a basic libertarian principle? If you don't like abortion, don't have one. If you want to force everyone else to be denied their own choice, prove you're right first.
The NAP says don’t transgress on the right to life of the baby- that’s the basic Libertarian argument.
Bit you aren’t even a good pretend Libertarian, you paid proggy shill
Show us the ‘baby’ and show us that it has a right to life.
This is the very “being required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that their premise is valid” being talked about.
You don’t get to just make-up imaginary creatures and give them imaginary rights and claim you have validity. Rights are *inherent*. If you have validity in your rights you don’t need Gov-Guns FORCING anyone else to ‘provide’/create it.
"The NAP says don’t transgress on the right to life of the baby"
Only if you assume that a fetus is a baby, which is a conclusion that requires proof, not a valid premise.
Without a valid premise, invoking the NAP for a fertilized egg is like invoking the NAP for a maple seed. It's illogical.
The way logic works is to establish your premise, then use that to justify your conclusion. Claiming your conclusion is logical without a valid premise is sophistry. Or dishonesty. With anti-abortion arguments, it's usually both.
Libertarian is as libertarian does. High-liberty fiscal policies crossed with low-liberty social beliefs yields a conservative, not a libertarian. It's basic Nolan chart stuff.
Although, to be accurate, anti-liberty takes on both personal and fiscal freedom, like the paleocons who presently dominate the GOP, yields statist, not conservative, ideology.
The desire to force those conservative social beliefs (especially arbitrary religious moral codes) on everyone through government coercion is cultural conservatism. It's statism, which is even more dangerous than liberalism.
The fetus is a baby? Proof?
Is an ultrasound proof enough?
Are a lot of them border collies? Salmon? Pasta makers?
"Is an ultrasound proof enough?"
No.
Because an ultrasound doesn't demonstrate...
An *inherent* right to life what-so-ever.
There are plenty of pro abortion people. Primarily among you democrats. Remember those Hollywood idiots with their rallies ‘shouting their abortion’? They’re proud of their infanticide.
You democrats are monsters.
Refusing to be ashamed because you got an abortion isn't pro-abortion. It's telling anti-abortionists to take their false moral superiority and stuff it.
They aren't saying that pregnant women should get abortions (pro-abortion). They're saying that pregnant women should have the choice to get an abortion (pro-choice).
And I'm not sure why you think I'm a Democrat. I'm adamantly opposed to a lot of D fiscal policies, particularly their comfort with deficit spending. I'm even more opposed to specific D policies, like student loan forgiveness, inefficient/unnecessary social programs, opposition to raising the SS age, etc.
Opposing the imposition of conservative social beliefs on the larger culture isn't being a Democrat, it's being a libertarian. When social conservatism (easily defensible) becomes cultural conservatism (indefensible), you've left libertarianism behind.
What would you call the uniquely individual organism that is formed by the joining of a human egg and a human sperm, other than person?
That unique individual begins developing until 9 months later, he can survive without the protection of his mother's uterus. Just because he is in an early stage of development, does not mean he is not human.
"What would you call ... other than person?"
A potential person. A roughly-one-in-four-chance-of-actually-being-born zygote. A not-a-person-until-at-least-22-weeks fetus. Take your pick.
"That unique individual begins developing until 9 months later, he can survive without the protection of his mother’s uterus."
That isn't true. You would have to put "with a 27% chance of survival" between "until" and "9 months".
You know that, without any outside intervention, the odds of a fertilized egg becoming a living human being is a little above 25%, right?
"Just because he is in an early stage of development, does not mean he is not human."
Nice use of vague wording. You've learned your "How to Pretend we're Reasonable People for Anti-Abortionists" handbook very well.
The fetus has human DNA, but it absolutely doesn't mean it is a human being. Or a child. Or a baby. Or a person. Or a separate organism. There is a vast gulf between "possessing human DNA" and "a human being"
You understand that such a broad and irrational definition of "human being" is why there is justified fear that the hard right's control of abortion policy on red states will lead to IVF being illegal, right?
If unique human DNA, which exists at fertilization, conveys the full rights of an real human on a fertilized egg, IVF would be illegal. That's not speculation, it's literally what the direct result of fetal personhood.
The earliest point that a fetus has been delivered and survived is 21 weeks. Anything before that would require everyone to pretend that "potential" and "actual" are synonyms. They aren't.
“That it is a child/person/individual after conception is a heavily disputed opinion.”
There may be dispute on the terminology of calling it a baby/child (clearly TJJ gets ass blasted over using such when discussing the fetus), or even personhood (which is really the meat of the argument for/against). But, unless science has changed, there is no dispute on it being an individual. That it spends the first 10 months of development tethered to the mother doesn’t change that.
Pre-Viable it cannot (definition of Individual) "existing as a distinct entity : separate"...
Yes; There is not only 'dispute' there is blatant reality that it is NOT an 'Individual' by the words very definition.
If Pro-Life's authoritarian "because I say-so" is going to persist the only peaceful solution is to prove Pro-Life is F.O.S. by ensuring the Individual Liberty to Fetal Ejection. Or in general phrases: Make them put their $ where there mouth is.
"There may be dispute on the terminology of calling it a baby/child"
No, there is a dispute about labeling something that may or may not become a baby/child (a fetus) as a baby/child prematurely. In fact, it's rightly pointed out to be dishonest and erroneous. A fetus isn't a baby or a child. It's a fetus.
"even personhood (which is really the meat of the argument for/against)"
Personhood is even further into the logic chain. Anti-abortionists want to skip over all the "establish your premise" parts and just claim a fertilized egg is a person. It doesn't work that way.
"But, unless science has changed, there is no dispute on it being an individual"
Actually, there's nothing but dispute about such a wild claim. You want to take an adjective and pretend it's a noun.
An individual what? It isn't an individual organism, since it is incapable of existing individually. Separate a pre-viable fetus from the womb and it has a 0% chance of survival. Until 21 weeks (the earliest a fetus has been delivered and survived), it is the exact opposite of an individual organism.
Until it is capable of being independent of the womb, it isn't an individual. And don't even try that dreck about how a baby isn't independent. It's pure sophistry and patently dishonest to pretend that independent only means "can feed, clothe, and house itself".
"That it spends the first 10 months of development tethered to the mother doesn’t change that."
Yes, it does, if it has a 0% chance of existing without that tether. So the earliest that it doesn't matter is 21 weeks. Before that, it is the most significant fact
No dispute on it being an individual or human.
Individual DNA or human DNA? Agreed. Individual person or individual human? A whole lot of dispute, and you are in the tiny minority that believes DNA is the only thing that matters.
Quoth the Beatles-burning televangelist girl-bullier...
Belief and thinking are mutually exclusive.
You’re devoid of the latter.
These pro-abolition ladies are against emancipation – Reason April 1865 issue
Emancipation in the abortion context is called ejectionism. It doesn't end the way yiu want it to.
"After years of young Americans turning against legal abortion, youth trends have now done an about-face, with the youngest U.S. adults far outpacing older counterparts in their pro-choice sentiment."
Ah yes, the wave of the future argument ...
First of all, many of us gain wisdom as we age. I mean, those evil conservatives have been supposed to just die off, for much longer than I've been around. Yet, they persist in not doing so. The scientific mind might conclude that some young people change their views as they get older, and learn more about life.
Also, the young are easily indoctrinated. And some wake up from it later. And clearly, the school, the media, etc. are preaching the pro-abortion message.
The wave of the future is that humans will evolve into harem-fighting BEASTS like elephant seals, fighting for mating rights, with "being a good father to the children" shoved to the side!
THE “LYING LOTHARIO” PROBLEM: Well, a lot of pro-lifers are men, and I would bet that even those pro-lifers who are women? Very few of them have found themselves in the following shoes: Lying Lothario endlessly says “Love ya, babe, Love-ya, Love-ya, Love-ya, NOW can I get down your pants?” After she falls for him and he gets her pregnant, the abuse (from him) begins, and she finds out that he has 7 other “Love-ya, Babe, my One and Only” babes on the side, 4 of them also pregnant by him! So abortion is “veto power” against scumbucket men. If these behavioral genes get passed on and on, humans will evolve into something like elephant seals, where the men most skilled at lying and fighting off the other lying men, get a harem of 40 babes, and the rest of the men get nothing (other than caring for the resulting babies)! So abortion is empowering women to fight off this sort of thing… And reserve their baby-making powers for men who are less lying scum, and will actually make good fathers to the children.
So they want to “capitally punish” the “offenders” (abortion-providing doctors, so as to “dry up” the sources for safe abortions), while they have never been in the above-described (lied-to female) shoes! Willfully blind self-righteousness, basically…
Or maybe some of the anti-abortion men fantasize and lust after being the elephant-seal-like men who can gather the baby-making powers of a harem of 40 lied-to women, under the new scheme of things?
I am glad that SOME you oppose theft. Theft by deception is also theft; I hope you can see that! When a severely lying Lothario-type dude (as described above) appropriates the baby-making powers of a deceived young woman, that, too, is theft! Abortion is anti-theft, when a deceived woman no longer wants to rent out her womb to a deceptive scumbag, prospective god-awful supposed "father" of a sperm donor!
Those who are anti-abortion unmarried men should be out there desperately courting women who have already been deceived by scumbucket men, and volunteering to raise these unborn children (who are NOT your biological offspring), to fend off a HUGE root cause of abortion, and to put your money where your mouth is! And married anti-abortion men? Check with your wives; see if they mind you donating all of your spare time and money to helping out these future unmarried moms! THESE actions will relieve the pressures towards abortions!
Helping out pregnant women till the give birth, and then abandoning the support of said women (immediately or near-immediately post-birth), scarcely substitutes at ALL, for the loving support of a husband or father for 18 years, by the way!
"I mean, those evil conservatives have been supposed to just die off, for much longer than I’ve been around."
They have, it's just that what constitutes "conservative" shifts slowly left from generation to generation. Thinking it was OK to kill black people because they were getting uppity was a conservative lodestar in the 60s. Today, no one outside of Misek and his ilk would agree. Today's conservative is roughly the same as what Bill Clinton was in the 90s. And that's been the trend in America since the Founders.
"The young are easily indoctrinated."
So why did 50 years of well-funded indoctrination efforts by anti-abortionists consistently fail to succeed? Pro-choice supporters were complacent while anti-abortion forces spent billions trying to change people's minds. They targeted young people. Why didn't it work, if indoctrination is so easy?
"And clearly, the school, the media, etc. are preaching the pro-abortion message."
Sure, sure, sure. I remember all the pro-choice ads and influence campaigns and religious sermons and ... oh, wait. That was the anti-abortion groups.
Reagan's Hitler Youth, 1987 Crash. Waffen Bush Hitler Jugend, 2008 asset-forfeiture Crash, 3 states repeal weed prohibition. Four million-plus libertarian votes rattle 127 electoral votes and accidentally help a Nazi win... 14 more States STOP SHOOTING KIDS OVER PLANT LEAVES as of 2016. MAGAts never mention this stuff...
"The government that has the power to tell you you can't have an abortion is the same government that has the power to tell you you have to have an abortion," he adds.
^THIS...
Roe v Wade was mostly correct.
It's a violation of the 4th Amendment ( & 13th; missed by Roe v Wade).
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. fetal ejection)
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
Roe v wade was 0% correct. Pleas show me where the fed is responsible for abortion policies?
Don’t you know the difference between “the peoples” law (US Constitution) over their government and government itself????
Roe v Wade PROHIBITED Fed & State Involvement pre-viable.
Roe v Wade IS-NOT ‘Fed’ Legislation.
It *is* SCOTUS’S responsible to ensuring the Bill of Rights.
And that is EXACTLY what Roe v Wade is; A Supreme Court ruling; specifically stating it wasn’t ‘governments’ business pre-viable and only a State matter post-viable.
It was a bad decision. Hobbs rectified that bad decision.
I'm sure the Slave-State crowd of the past would agree with you.
Humorously; Quite a few Slave-Party members have stated as much.
State-Mandated Womb slavery for 3rd party nosy busy-bodies for the WIN! /s
The argument you highlight is pure sophistry.
Why can't you abort everyone acolyte make an intelligent, firm argument?
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons” … “against unreasonable” … “seizure, shall not be violated”
You can’t seize the Woman to reproduce without running a foul of the 4th Amendment. Exactly as Roe v Wade ruled.
“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime” … “shall exist within the United States”
You can’t FORCE the woman to be put into “involuntary servitude” to the fetus without running a foul of the 13th Amendment.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All you can do Constitutionally is make the actual ‘act’ of taking-life illegal. Something Pro-Life will not address because they aren’t about ‘saving’ a life. They’re about FORCING reproduction/a-life.
FIRM is exactly where my argument sits.
Fantasy-land “save my unicorn” excuses is where Pro-Life’s arguments reside.
Alito completely ignores the Constitution by claiming "moral issue".....
"None of the other decisions cited by Roe and Casey involved the critical *moral* question posed by abortion. "
"Those criteria, at a high level of generality, could license *fundamental rights* to illicit drug use, prostitution, and the like."
Further stating; drug-use and prostitution *fundamental rights* are a mistake. The 'government' HAS to tell people what they can do with themselves is the *moral* bottom line for Alito.
This Nation wasn't founded on the idea of telling people what they can or cannot do with themselves.
... on some self-righteous religious dictators *morals*.
I'm not interested in discussing this article now, but more in the concerted mass shooting that just took place in Alabama — multiple shooters, multiple shootees, not clear how many actual targets.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/22/us/birmingham-alabama-shooting-five-points-south/index.html
4 dead and 18 injured after gunfire erupts at popular nightlife area in Birmingham, Alabama, police say
THIS is the long-term result of a persistent, callous disregard for Sacred Human DNA-life! ONLY when we finally learn to WorShit The Every Sperm Which Is Sacred, only THEN will such evil finally fade away... Forever!
HooRay, and... Hang Mike Pence! And execute General Milley! And...
The article I looked at said police were blaming Glock switches. Always blame the gun, not the people.
Cultural issue.
Ask Donnie. He said he knows the blacks better than anyone else.
That’s pathetic, even for a low grade child molesting Soros flunkie like you.
Maybe some Act Blue donors were there, thought they saw DJT, and resorted to “spray and pray” tactics.
If act blue donors then it means conservatives again.
Hmm read 3 articles and not a single one mentioned race. I'm guessing it was a gang shooting
Makes them white then.
Black Illegal Immigrant Who Stabbed Family Of Four To Death Labeled As "White" In Monroe County Jail Roster
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/black-illegal-immigrant-who-stabbed-family-four-death-labeled-white-monroe-county-jail
"Detectives believe the shooting was not random and stemmed from an isolated incident where multiple victims were caught in the crossfire," police said in the emailed statement.
That’s not important right now. Let us express outrage at this latest “mass shooting” and blame Glock Switches.
I wonder what emptytheprisons program these fuckers were released from?
George Wallace's Alabama? Home of the Jesus Caucus Lootveeg Fon Jesus Institut, Ja? Alabama gave 9 electoral votes to Orange Hitler. Four dead, 18 wounded, how surprising for a girl-bullier State.
My pro-choice, anti-force libertarian blogs plugging Reason get 5000 visitors a month. How many MAGA sockpuppets do that?
Yeah 4 dead in Birmingham. Not even close to a typical weekend in Chicago.
Fitzgerald said mass shootings “have more to do with culture than they do criminality,” adding that “we’re seeing far too many arguments being settled by bullets.”
Explains it.
What's up Peanuts?
Donnie still supports the Black Nazi for North Carolina Governor.
#DonnieChoosesTheBest
Did he march with all your soros allies praising the murder of news last summer?
Why is it every single story involving some chick dieing during pregnancy post roe v wade overturning is "activist doctors" who ignore the law to kill people in order to prove a point?
To all the pro baby killing doctors, we get it you like killing people.
We get shit you like enslaving the womb-slaves, ye PervFected womb slaver!
Obeying Pro-Abortion State law is "activist doctors"??????
Don't make STUPID laws then.
It's not obeying the law you retard. Look at the article from Georgia. The law in Georgia explicitly states that the chick should have been taken care of, but the pro baby killing doctors killed her in order to prove a point.
“Watts’ water broke at just 21 weeks pregnant, and a hospital refused to intervene.”
Removing the fetus is ‘abortion’ = ?murder?.
That is the narrative Pro-Life has painted into law.
The only point getting “proven” is Pro-Life’s retarded-ness.
As I've said all along. Support the Individual Right to Fetal Ejection.
See. You even have to lie about this story to justify your views. The baby was already dead. It had no heart beat. Nothing in the GA bill would effect this case. The bill requires a heart beat.
Again. When you have to lie to try to defend your argument you know your argument is a failing one.
You top of comments "A fetus isn’t dead."
You here "The baby was already dead."
Make-up your mind already. Of course I'm lying when you keep changing you mind all the time. How am I suppose to keep up with that BS?
Which is exactly why the GA issue went exactly as it did.
Pro-Life pushing to ban abortion without demonstrating a right to life.
How in the world was TJJ2000 not a grey box?
You know, for someone who gets so hung up on terminology, you sure do misuse it a lot when this topic comes up.
Dumbass Donnie's reply on how he would lower food prices:
Our farmers are being absolutely decimated right now. And, you know, one of the reasons is we allow a lot of farm product into our country. We’re gonna have to be a little like other countries, we’re not gonna allow so much com— we’re gonna let our farmers go to work.
X - Tuesday Sep 16
Yes, Donnie wants to restrict food imports. Unreal.
Now when Kammy struggled with the same question (what will you do to lower food prices?) her nonsense reply made the news repeatedly.
WTF?
Do any of you Trump Cultists/Fake libertarians want to support his idea that restricting food imports will lower prices?
Even JesseAZ is not that stupid. (I think)
https://www.mediaite.com/news/trump-goes-on-stunning-rant-that-ends-with-roast-of-stranded-astronauts-when-fan-asks-how-will-you-bring-down-cost-of-food/
(Link to Donnie's vapid reply about high food prices)
What happened to your original account?
A guy walks into a bar and sits next to sbp.
Sbp turns to him and says "did you see the house on the corner? I built that, but do they call me sbp the house builder? NO!
did you see the new roof at the hospital, I built that, but do they call me sbp the roof builder? No!
But you post kiddie porn 1 time...!"
He’s a pedophilic, Down Syndrome version of Jimmy Carville. Or perhaps Jimmy Carville plus a homosexual Jimmy Savile and Joe Biden’s -or- Kamala’s brain.
(Link to Donnie’s vapid reply about high food prices)
And this is the better choice....We're fucked.
Trump is off the rails. He has no clue about economics. He may actually be worse than Kamala on economic issues. Like Dave Smith says: Trump never opened a book in his whole life. Too bad that wasn't the same for his mouth.
Kamala literally suggested price controls and taxing unrealized gains.
Please tell us more about how Trump is the biggest idiot in the race.
Please tell us more about how Trump is the biggest idiot in the race.
If you don't see it already, I can't convince you. Besides, there's no one worth defending in this race.
None are so blind as those who refuse to see.
edit: This means you, QB.
OK. This is possible. We never see it in ourselves. So I'll consider your one liner cliche seriously.
But help me out here. I'm willing to listen. What am I refusing to see? Give me some substance instead of an insult that will only encourage me to dig in to my beliefs.
Did you read Trump's linked response?--Ban imports to reduce grocery prices?
Tariffs across the board after record setting inflation?
I see he's marginally better on war; he's better on reducing regulations, he's better on energy policy; he's better on immigration policy; he's better on identity politics; he's an enemy of the deep state/establishment (although his strong man ideation is in contradiction with any progress he'd make here). These make him the better choice.
Although he'd benefit from trying to educate himself on any of these, he's especially moronic on economics and seems unable to reduce federal deficit spending.
That may well be the case, but there’s a better than 50% chance he’ll have someone to advise him that has.
There is 0% chance Kamala will have anyone who knows dick about economics except what they read in that little red book.
True
Even JesseAZ is not that stupid. (I think)
I’m sure he’ll go on the attack to defend Trump. He feels that it is his duty.
My guess is he’ll attack the messenger by claiming Trump’s comment was misinterpreted or cherry picked or non-existent, attack the critic for not attacking Harris, attack the critic by claiming they don’t know about economics or history, attack some past statement by the critic from years ago, make up some strawman to attack, attack with the fallacy of relative privation (something else is worse so this doesn’t matter), attack with childish taunts, or some combination thereof.
Sarc only talks about ideas, not people. Therefore, this post does not exist.
Note the “ideas” guy tag-teaming with the resident pedophile.
I love how you cry about me responding to you but then use my name every chance you get lol.
Also love how yiuvr gone full shrike in your lies, accusations, and leftist ideology. Good work buddy.
Make stuff up plus childish taunts it is.
Sarc, you DID bring him up first and attack him first.
Not sure what you expected.
I'm not complaining. Just giving him rope so he can show how stupid, dishonest and predictable he is.
…. and you’re right there for your pedophile pal. Is he paying you in child rape videos?
Food should always be domestically sourced, you fucking retard.
Plant the seeds of edible plants in the dirt under your finger and toe nails. AND in your hair, ears, and belly button! You can NOT get any more locally-grown than THAT!
The US is the biggest food exporter in the world.
Net importers of food include E.U., U.K., Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Canada, China, Poland, Italy…
So to follow that new MAGA logic we would have all the corn/soybeans/wheat to ourselves and it would be CHEAP.
Of course coffee would skyrocket (Hawaii provides less than 5% of domestic supply, chocolate would be prohibitively expensive, bananas would skyrocket, most fruit like blueberries are imported.
This MAGA policy is for idiots who hate modern capitalism and trade.
#GLOBALISTS-SUCK! - MAGA NATIONALISM IS THE FUTURE!
Of course coffee would skyrocket
Breaking the caffeine addiction would have vast health benefits.
No loss here.
Spoken like a good little MAGA progressive.
Die, globohomo.
Trump's policies are magic. You see by restricting the importation of food, his policy will simultaneously raise prices for the benefit of farmers, while also lowering prices for the benefit of consumers. If you disagree then you're a poo-poo head.
As magic as your every illegal who crosses creates their own job? Lol.
Even Jerome Powell who supports unfettered migration thinks you're an idiot.
Deliberately misinterpret past comment, check.
Turn deliberate misinterpretation into strawman, check.
Attack strawman, check.
Attack strawman with a strawman. That's a new one.
You're aware food prices were not through the roof under Trump but got there quickly under Biden-Harris, right?
You can mock his policies if you so desire --- Harris has a track record of sheer failure. She needs to announce a policy to change what she's been doing for 3.5 years.
Trump has a track record. Harris has a track record.
Which one has a BETTER one?
You do realize that inflation is a lagging indicator, right? It doesn’t happen overnight. The only people who deny this are lying Trump defenders who know better, and economic ignoramuses who don’t. Which one are you?
Rising food prices were a direct result of covid policies under Trump that restricted supply, coupled with inflation caused by money created out of thin air in the form checks with Trump’s name on them. Yes Biden’s policies made it worse, but it all started with Trump. Had he won the election food prices would still have skyrocketed along with everything else. Free money isn't free.
Hey, Trump is blamed by Kamala for a PANDEMIC hitting.
I do not take any complaints about how unfair things are for Biden-Harris. A pandemic came out of nowhere --- and Biden killed more people than Trump did.
With a vaccine.
And knowledge on how to fight the vaccine.
But TRUMP was "incompetent", per Harris.
She made rules that she is going to have to live by.
She's also had YEARS to work on correcting the problem and has not done anything except make it worse.
"Had Trump remained in office he would have presided over inflation."
Perhaps. But hypotheticals are of little use. What is and what is not are what matters here. I see no reason to suspect Trump would have had policies as asinine as Biden-Harris have pursued.
"I don’t know how much more spending he would have done while in office. Emergency spending always becomes the new baseline, so spending would not have gone down to 2019 levels."
Still has not gone down to there, mind you.
Trump MIGHT have kept spending high. Biden-Harris DID keep spending high. DID > Might.
"Yes Biden’s policies made it worse, but it all started with Trump."
To paraphrase you, because Trump did it, it is OK that Biden-Harris did it.
"Had he won the election food prices would still have skyrocketed along with everything else. Free money isn’t free."
We have a hypothetical assumption and we have reality. Assumptions, again, mean very little. The economy was roaring back to life at the end of 2020. Unemployment was being gutted back to normal levels as was economic growth. And that was with Democrat governors keeping their states shut down for no reason outside of politically harming Trump.
I do not know what would have happened with Trump in the WH the last 4 years. But I DO know what happened with Biden-Harris. And that is a shit show that needs to end.
I don’t know what to make of your post. You ok?
My point was first that economics doesn’t deal in hypotheticals or care who is in office. You inflate the money supply with checks for everyone, you get inflation. Doesn’t happen overnight though. Takes time for all that new money to work through the economy and raise prices. That is not hypothetical. It’s an economic certainty.
Second point was that it’s a political certainty that emergency spending becomes the new baseline. At least in the last 80 years or so. So spending would have stayed high had Trump won.
I’m sure it would have been less-bad because Trump wouldn’t have signed onto the Green New Deal bullshit. But the damage had already begun.
The full extent is hypothetical.
But those first two points are not.
None of that is meant as a defense of Biden or Harris. I'm just trying to put things into full perspective.
We’ve straightened you out in this subject before. Now you should just receive a beating for wasting our time.
"I don’t know what to make of your post. You ok?"
Unsure where you got lost in "WE do not KNOW what Trump would have done but we DO know when Harris did." You know, the whole "history" thing and all. Saying "Well, Trump would have been as bad" is based on nothing. There is no assurance he would have been worse. Harris WAS worse. We have years of experience over this.
"Second point was that it’s a political certainty that emergency spending becomes the new baseline. At least in the last 80 years or so. So spending would have stayed high had Trump won."
I do not place a ton of faith in counter-factual predictions. Might it have stayed high? Yup. Might have.
But under Harris, it DID stay high.
Unsure where "Might is not as definitive as did" is confusing.
Trump has a track record. Harris has a track record.
Had Trump remained in office he would have presided over inflation. I don’t know how much more spending he would have done while in office. Emergency spending always becomes the new baseline, so spending would not have gone down to 2019 levels. As a result the economy would still have gone to shit, and his defenders would be going into overdrive attacking anyone who dared to point it out.
TBF, I don’t think we’ve ever had “emergency spending” when the democrats didn’t control at least the House before and after (certainly not in 08/09 or 20/21) it was passed, so we have no way of knowing if that money spigot would get turned off.
Considering the Reps got swept in almost specifically because their constituents wanted Obamacare gone, only to waffle because “what do we do to replace it” RINO’s were more interested in being the controlled opposition than doing what they were elected for, I wouldn’t hold my breath. But since it’s never happened, we’ll never know for sure.
"Had Trump remained in office he would have presided over inflation."
Again, you are focusing on what MIGHT have been and I am focusing on what was. Not MIGHT have done. What DID, in fact, happen. We do not KNOW what Trump would have done as he was not in the WH. But you cannot claim we do not know what Harris would have done as she was on board with the policies of the last 4 years. Publicly and proudly so. And she had the influence to change things if she so wished to do so.
Anyone else shocked shrike and sarc are having a competition for who can create the dumbest strawman?
No need for dumbass straw men while you’re here, Jesse.
Correct, because Jesse will call them out. By the way, what happened to your original account?
Food should always be domestically sourced
How very North Korean of you.
They get theirs from China, and shocking nobody, are a goddamn client state.
Yes but they don't want to. Wanting all food to be domestically sourced is simple economic illiteracy.
Relying on other countries who are not overly fond of you seems like a rather poor plan as well.
Japan relied on the US heavily for its oil in the 1920's and 30's. It ended up not being beneficial for them.
Then freedom is too costly.
Your choice.
Of course. Because autarky has worked everywhere it's been tried!
N Korea always had a massive lack of arable land. Mountains aplenty. It was never an option that had any chance of working.
A country should have the ABILITY to fulfill any of their needs if something happens to kill the transportation system. Like, for example, a pandemic or what have you.
A baseline of self-suffiency makes sense.
Not to a globalist Sorosite pinko, like Pedo Jeffy.
The US has more than enough land, manpower, and available resources to make it work for the length of it's civilizations lifetime.
Most other countries aren't lucky. Too fucking bad for them, they will be held hostage to those that are.
Divergent DNA is the only standard you need to know that it's a separate lifeform.
Every organ transplant is a seperate life!!!! /s
It's amazing how Pro-Life's DEMANDED religion must be followed at all costs.
Because............ they say-so; that's why.
So retarded.
It’s good that rational people reject your infanticidal ravings.
Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction is 'rational'?
To religious tyrants maybe.
"Divergent DNA is the only standard you need to know that it’s a separate lifeform."
Nonsense. And the vast majority of people know and accept that it's nonsense. The percentage of people who think "Human DNA is the exact same thing as a human being" struggles to crack double digits. And that's after 50 years of well-funded influence campaigns that tried to convince people abortion is wrong.
Dobbs was the last gasp of a dying belief. In 20 years the anti-abortion movement will be a historical footnote.
In other funny news, Janet Jackson now says Kamala ain’t black.
Hilarity ensues.
From wardrobe malfunction to MAGA extremist.
What's her evidence? Did Kamala not vote for Brandon?
“The government that has the power to tell you you can’t have an abortion is the same government that has the power to tell you you have to have an abortion,” he adds.
Oh, FFS.
“The government that has the power to tell you you can’t commit murder is the same government that has the power to tell you you have to commit murder.”
“The government that has the power to tell you you can’t rape women is the same government that has the power to tell you you have to rape women.”
“The government that has the power to tell you you can’t commit armed robbery is the same government that has the power to tell you you have to commit armed robbery.”
Abortion arguments are all fundamentally, inherently retarded. Non-cogito, ergo (non-)sum. All kinds of lifeforms will never cogitate at the level humans cogitate. The world over, we prevent them from being killed with licensing and limits and local restrictions. But a clump of cells that, 100 yrs. ago, had a very good chance of not completing the pregnancy, as we move towards a world where pretty much every pregnancy is viable, *cannot* be protected because backwards retards are worried that the Hell outline by their Earth Mommy deities in books like A Handmaid’s Tale may come true.
Future historians will see 'thoughts' and comments like the ones above, all the ink spilled about the issue of whether it's OK to murder potential humans, and wonder how the hell Enlightenment, public education, and information technology fucked up so terribly.
Or current historians can just point to the Gov-Gun FORCED sterilization legislation of the past.
While idiots talk about ‘killing’ a potential as if it was murder.
I had potential to be a CEO and my boss ‘killed’ it; lock him up lock him up! /s
So, fucktard, if your wife is obviously pregnant and I punch her in the stomach and she miscarries, but otherwise suffers no harm, I should be charged with simple assault--just like if I punched you in the stomach.
Correct. ‘Faith’ that something exists when it doesn’t is a corruption of reality. If law doesn’t foundation itself on reality it becomes based on whims and religion.
Until that pregnancy can demonstrate a right to life it is impossible for you to TAKE what it doesn't have in the first place and therefore must be considered just a 'piece' of someone who does have a right to life.
Making-up MURDER charges based upon 'Faith' is exactly the dishonesty of Pro-Life.
WTF? How does one ‘demonstrate a right to life’?
When it's *inherent* that's how.
It's not that hard to understand.
I love using the Georgia case when it was a simply case of pro-choice morons advocating for the abortion pill for ALL pregnancies, even when it is too late for it, and THAT (along with activist doctors) caused her death.
States allowing doctors to intentionally allow patients to die to make a political point should feel some semblance of shame. And those doctors should be forced to suffer the same consequences the patient coming to them for help that they actively ignored suffered.
I love using the Georgia case when it was a simply case of pro-choice morons advocating for the abortion pill for ALL pregnancies, even when it is too late for it, and THAT (along with activist doctors) caused her death.
What scientific basis are you using to say this? Amber Thurman was ~9 weeks when she took the pills, while I'm seeing information that this is well within normal practice.
The FDA provided a 7-week gestational limit when it was approved. Democrats decided to pursue removal of any real restrictions on it as well as avoiding advisement of known issues with the drug, such as adverse bleeding and infections.
She also presented zero fetal cardiac activity when she arrived at the hospital.
The doctors CHOSE to allow her to die to make a political point, even though any treatment, by any definition known to man, would have had nothing to do with abortion as an "abortion" requires a viable pregnancy. That, 100%, was not the case. The abortion had ALREADY happened. Part of the fetus remained inside her. THAT was what caused the sepsis et al. It is also not exactly a RARE occurrence. Happens 15% of the time or so.
This, mind you, is a known issue for the abortion drugs and, formerly, FDA required a post-abortion follow-up with a doctor. Democrats scuttled that. She would have been alive had they not done that. A D + C should have been performed immediately --- would not have been illegal by any reading of Georgia law.
Abortion drugs are not these totally safe things pro-choicers like ENB here thinks they are. They have very real risks involved. WE have just chosen to ignore them because "Yay killing babies" I guess.
The doctors CHOSE to allow her to die to make a political point, even though any treatment, by any definition known to man, would have had nothing to do with abortion as an “abortion” requires a viable pregnancy.
You're reading the minds of the doctors and any other hospital staff involved. An alternate explanation for their delayed action is genuine uncertainty in what the law does or does not allow plus the uncertainty of how a local prosecutor might act. In the absence of any statements, documentation, or testimony from people that were present and privy to doctors' debates over what to do, the explanation that doesn't assume what you are basically calling murderous intent seems the most likely to me.
Part of the fetus remained inside her. THAT was what caused the sepsis et al. It is also not exactly a RARE occurrence. Happens 15% of the time or so.
Please stop throwing out numbers without providing sources, since I am quickly finding things that directly contradict what you are claiming. The link I already included does not indicate anything close to "15% of the time or so" for any kind of serious complication from taking abortion medications, let alone the remains of enough fetal tissue to result in sepsis. It cites its sources at the bottom of the article if you are interested in facts.
Abortion drugs are not these totally safe things pro-choicers like ENB here thinks they are. They have very real risks involved. WE have just chosen to ignore them because “Yay killing babies” I guess.
It is fairly clear to me that the "killing babies" thing is your primary motivation for your position, since the things you claim to be facts are anything but factual. You might as well stick to that aspect of your arguments. You just dig yourself deeper into holes with anything else.
"You’re reading the minds of the doctors and any other hospital staff involved. An alternate explanation for their delayed action is genuine uncertainty in what the law does or does not allow plus the uncertainty of how a local prosecutor might act. In the absence of any statements, documentation, or testimony from people that were present and privy to doctors’ debates over what to do, the explanation that doesn’t assume what you are basically calling murderous intent seems the most likely to me."
The baby was dead. That is not in dispute. The abortion had occurred beforehand. They were dead before the doctor was approached. It is impossible to do an abortion on a dead baby. I'm not giving them benefit of the doubt here because the only way to do so is to assume they are so idiotic that they should not have a medical license in the first place.
As far as the 15% number, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19888037/. You're correct, it was for bleeding excessively. The percentage of fetal parts left behind were about 6.7%. Still not exactly rare.
Neo Marxists like Jason see abortion as an unholy sacrament of their malignant religion. He will NEVER concede to any rational point, no matter what.
Haven't read the entire article but I assume it includes a retraction of ENB repeating the bald faced lie that GA has made D&C a felony.
ALL objectivists are pro-life, understand that women are individuals, not Siamese twins, and SEE and UNDERSTAND measured data showing that green-teeth coercion of doctors literally increases the death rate among pregnant women. https://libertariantranslator.wordpress.com/2024/04/24/republican-coercion-kills-american-women/
The clump of cells has spoken.
Some of Hank's cells may be irretrievably damaged.
Some?
I appreciate that the one thing that can bring the commentariat together is bagging on Hank.
You would think Pluggo’s pedophilia would too, but……….
"I appreciate that the one thing that can bring the commentariat together is bagging on Hank."
And the Rev. And the meth-ravaged Squrlsy.
The position advocated by the people in this article is intellectually and morally incoherent. If you're going to claim abortion is wrong, you've got to be able to explain exactly why it is wrong. Because, if you're claiming it's just a clump of cells, if you're claiming it's not a distinct human being, per se (for what little it's worth, I don't think it is from the point of conception), there's really very little sane or rational reason to think abortion carries any moral value. The problem is, if you think the fetus is a distinct human being, per se, you have to come to terms with the conclusion that abortion is tantamount to murder. Murder, one of, if not the, most profound violations of a person's rights we can imagine, is obviously not "a personal matter that the government shouldn't be involved in". From a natural rights perspective, abortion seems to be either morally neutral or murder. That is to say, I really don't see where you can make the case that abortion is a vice and not a crime. Of course, if it is the latter, then it's one of the sole things governments justify their existence in preventing. Really, the only way I can see you getting to an "it's bad, but the government shouldn't be involved" position is, ironically, if you actually do see the woman's right to control her own body as subordinate to other matters.
The problem is, if you think the fetus is a distinct human being, per se, you have to come to terms with the conclusion that abortion is tantamount to murder.
For people that do view abortion as "tantamount to murder," your formulation leaves them not just with a conclusion that abortion should be legally banned, but that women that seek and obtain abortions and the doctors that perform them should be prosecuted for murder. That means 25 years to life in prison, since it is obviously premeditated.
No one on the pro-life side is seriously advocating for that. Anyone that did would instantly be labeled a zealot and extremist.
I think that there is a valid rationale that the pro-life voters interviewed in this piece can come away with a perspective that abortion is morally wrong, but government should leave it between women and their doctors.
They probably recognize that their view that it is wrong is based not on objective facts of biology in combination with well-established ethics around human rights. They understand that there is an emotional and/or religious motivation to their thinking that trumps any logical reasoning. They then know that limiting another person's liberty to act based on this is an abuse of government power.
Legislating morality gets really fraught. While we do restrict people's freedoms based mostly or even entirely on social mores and views on moral behavior, people's willingness let that happen depends hugely upon the degree of imposition. A nudist isn't likely to fight a law against public indecency, and they will instead confine their desired actions to private property out of public view. But forcing a woman to remain pregnant when she doesn't want to be is an enormous physical imposition.
Abortion isn’t ’tantamount to murder’. It IS murder. Infanticide to be specific.
Case closed.
"The problem is, if you think the fetus is a distinct human being, per se, you have to come to terms with the conclusion that abortion is tantamount to murder."
And there's the crux of the issue. Most people don't think a fetus is a separate human being. Anti-abortionists try to word-salad over the distinction between a potential human being with separate and unique DNA (a fertilized egg) and an actual, viable, possesses-the-minimum-things-necessary-for-life individual. They try to pretend that the possibility that a fetus may, in the future, become a separate human being capable of life is the same thing as the actuality. It isn't.
There is a set of minimum requirements for a human to live. They include a heart (not just a cardiac tube), a functioning nervous system, a functioning circulatory system, a functioning gastrointestinal system, a brain, at least one kidney, a liver, and lungs. If an organism can't breathe, carry oxygen to the rest of the body, process food for energy, clear toxins from their system, and regulate the functions of the body, it can't survive. Until it has those minimum requirements, calling it an individual human is premature.
"calling it an individual human is premature"
I like how you said that +1000000000000... Well said.
When you say fetus, what exactly do you mean? I'm not saying this to push an agenda. But, it seems to me like that term suffers from a lack of granularity. As I say above, a clump of cells and a baby in utero are not the same thing. And viability may be a legitimate standard, although I'm at a loss to say it's status as a person is dependent on it's ability to survive. After all, we disallow murder, even though, over a long enough term, none of us survive. But, the pretense that there isn't a second person (or not, depending, really, on your metaphysics) in the issue doesn't do anyone any favors.
Really, though, as I say above, even "draconian" restrictions, barring an absolute ban or near--absolute ban, that most people would consider definitive (I assume you understand you're taking a hard-line pro-choice position) would leave most abortions largely unaffected.
The dirty little secret that neither side wants to address is that the vast majority of abortions happen early in pregnancy. Pro-life doesn't want to address it because it means stopping abortion would mean stopping abortions where most people don't consider the fetus a baby. And pro-choice doesn't want to address it because it means they're even "severe" restrictions aren't really imposing that much mass hardship.
“When you say fetus, what exactly do you mean?”
I believe that it goes like this:
Through day 5 after fertilization (week 2-3 in gestation age, which is used in abortion legislation), it is in the fallopian tubes and is called a zygote. As a side note, this is why Plan B isn’t an abortion drug or an abortifacient. Abortion required implantation first.
Between day 6 and 10 (week 3-3 1/2 GA) implantation in the uterus occurs. At this point, it’s a blastocyst.
Between day 10 and 12 (week 3 1/2-4 GA), the amniotic sac develops. At this point, it’s an embryo.
At day 56 (week 10 GA), the embryo is called a fetus.
From then to birth, it continues to be called a fetus.
That’s the technical breakdown. I usually see people just use embryo (or fertilized egg) before implantation and fetus after. That’s basically how I use the terms.
“As I say above, a clump of cells and a baby in utero are not the same thing.”
Agreed. That’s the embryo/fetus distinction I mentioned above.
“And viability may be a legitimate standard, although I’m at a loss to say it’s status as a person is dependent on it’s ability to survive.”
That seems to be the main separation between reasonable pro-life people and reasonable pro-choice people. I’m at a loss in the opposite direction; I don’t understand how something with a 0% chance of survival without the mother has more rights that the mother, who achieved 100% chance of survival a decade or more ago.
“But, the pretense that there isn’t a second person (or not, depending, really, on your metaphysics) in the issue doesn’t do anyone any favors.”
If you’re being fair, calling it pretense is inaccurate and has connotations of falseness or dishonesty. I promise you, the belief that a pre-viable fetus isn’t a person with rights isn’t false or dishonest. Many people (myself among them) consider it purely logical, if you start from the premise that a fertilized egg isn’t a person.
“Really, though, as I say above, even “draconian” restrictions, … would leave most abortions largely unaffected”
But that isn’t really relevant, philosophically. It’s a thought process that comes from “no abortions is the correct belief, so everything less is a concession to public opinion, not a logical belief”.
The “draconian” part comes from the arbitrary nature of pro-choice (as distinct from anti-abortion) dividing lines.
While anti-abortionists (those who believe that life begins at conception and all abortions are murder) are, in most people’s view, completely wrong, they are at least internally consistent. Arbitrary pro-life lines (“heartbeat” bills 4 weeks before a heart exists, 1st trimester, 15 weeks, or 20 weeks) aren’t compelling because they lack knternal consistency. Why is a heart relevant, but not a brain, liver, kidneys, or lungs (which don’t develop until as late as 28 weeks)? Why is a trimester relevant? Or 15 weeks? Or 20 weeks (halfway through the pregnancy)?
The viability thresholds at least make the same logical sense as the anti-abortionist’s “fertilized egg is a person” theory. If you don’t find the fertilization position logical, there’s no fundamental change between then and viability. Why is one necessary organ important if it doesn’t change the possibility of life at all? A fetus with a heart, but no kidneys, isn’t functionally any different than a fetus with a heart and kidneys, but no lungs. So when do things change?
21 weeks is the earliest a fetus has ever been delivered and survived. Personally, I find this the most compelling line. The moment that there is a non-zero chance of life, there is a fundamental change.
Sure, it’s literally one in trillions, but it’s the first time it can honestly be said, “at this point, there is a non-zero chance of survival”.
The other viability lines are related. 24-26 weeks is the point at which all organs necessary for survival have developed jn an average fetus. 28 weeks is the point when, if the fetus hasn’t developed the ability to survive, it never will.
“The dirty little secret that neither side wants to address is that the vast majority of abortions happen early in pregnancy.”
I would argue that it is pretty well-known by anyone who is paying more than the most cursory attention. Pro-choice advocates often publicize the fact. Anti-abortionists want to pretend it isn’t true because it counters their “cutting babies out of the womb” and “third trimester abortion” narratives, but I would argue most people realize those are propaganda and not reality.
“And pro-choice doesn’t want to address it because it means they’re even “severe” restrictions aren’t really imposing that much mass hardship.”
As a political issue, perhaps you’re right that hardship is relevant. But philosophically, it isn’t.
Is a fertilized egg a person? And if not, when does that “status” change? And why is the reason for the status change significant?
This post is a lot more reasonable than a lot of pro-life posts. So I’ll ask you, because it seems like you are reasonable and thoughtful: When do you think is a reasonable point to restrict abortion and what makes that point relevant? Is it biology? Politics? Public support? Your moral beliefs? Your view of a reasonable compromise?
Finally, thank you for this post. It was calm and thoughtful and avoided much of the absolutist language that often clutters up discussions of abortion.
We need to stop worrying and learn to embrace eugenics.
Dr. Strange LoveGlove
Maybe the nation would be a lot better off if they embraced Individual Liberty and Justice for all.
Unconstrained abortion means never having to say you're sorry (or responsible).
So does that mean having 3rd party opinions dictate your *PERSONAL* life choices = being responsible? /s
Until it's able to live on its own outside of the womb, it has no right to inhabit a woman's body. It has as much of a right to a woman's womb as I do to walk into a stranger's house and set up shop.
Perfect analogy. The preborn, under its own power and decision, walked into the womb of a random woman.
True. When you start BS'ing about sperm being a 'pre-born' person.
Next Up; Murder charges for ejecting sperm!!! /s
So the comments after an article about the fact that the extremes are overly-empowered in the abortion debate and that pro-life people aren't all prohibitionists is dominated by ... paleocons who insist that there isn't any middle ground.
Three months ago I had an amazing conversation with Get To Da Chippah. He and I will never agree, but we were still able to have a civil conversation where we laid out our beliefs and the reason for them. It was fantastic.
Both of us could acknowledge that the other had a valid position, while we both pointed out that we could never get to where the other was because it was a bridge too far.
For him, it was about the possibility that abortion after a certain point might be killing a person. For me it was the fact that he got nervous well before any fetus had ever survived and my belief that his discomfort shouldn't impact anyone's behavior but his.
He didn't accuse me of wanting to kill babies. He just said that he supported limiting abortion starting at the earliest realistic point (which, for the record, wasn't conception). I said that any infringement of the mother's rights should be taken vary seriously and should require proof, not rhetoric. He wants to give the fetus the benefit of every doubt. I want to protect fundamental rights. It wasn't that we didn't acknowledge that the others position had value, we just saw the issues that should be prioritized differently.
Personhood beginning at conception is extreme. Unrestricted abortion is extreme. Most people aren't in either camp and where they fall along the developmental arc depends on what issues they feel are more important. Those who don't share your priorities aren't evil and they aren't trying to kill babies or turn women into breeding slaves. They're just people who have different beliefs. Is it really so hard to acknowledge that? Without the "babykiller" and "slaver" rhetoric, please.
Power-madness has no “middle ground”.
Roe v Wade was already too Pro-Life. It granted State’s the ability to enslave a Woman Post-Viable. It should’ve ruled an Individual Right to Fetal Ejection at any stage. That ‘ruling’ doesn’t make the act of Murder legal what-so-ever and the medical procedure could’ve been legislated by the State to that effect.
Instead of making Roe v Wade MORE Liberty oriented the excess Power was never enough. Power-madness never ends. So now all State’s can enslave a Woman at any point and violate their 4th & 13th Amendment rights.
It’s actually the repeating situation that has ruined the nation.
Power granted is never enough to cure Power-madness.
“Between a woman and her Doctor”
But who is the doctor.
a) an old fashioned family doctor who knows the woman and the family and does not perform abortions but does arrange referrals.
b) a “specialist” at “planned parenthood” who has never met the woman before and whose income depends on performing abortions.
Since they're both doctors, there is no difference.
Wait, do you believe that there are doctors at Planned Parenthood who only perform abortions? Do you believe that more than about 2% of PP appointments are for abortions? Are you ignorant of the fact that there are doctors at PP that don't choose to, never have, and never will perform an abortion?
You do know that Planned Parenthood provides many, many, many medical services that aren't abortions, right? Or are you just one of those "Planned Parenthood is evil, no matter what" people?
It goes kind of like this.
PP was founded by a fan of eugenics. Therefore, a century later, it’s still dedicated to eugenics. Only leftists disagree.
If that don’t work go full ex communication.
They have more locations in high population density areas like inner cities. Inner cities are predominately black. Therefore PP is doing eugenics in black communities. If you disagree you’re defending leftist eugenicists!
What do they actually do? Who cares? They’re eugenicists!
Ad hominems for the win!
That’s what passes for reason in these comments.
Poor sarc.
Yes, pour Sarc.
So many poorly chosen words your pickled little brain doesn’t understand…….
PP is an abortion mill, and a subsidiary of your democrat party. I don’t know that it’s dedicated to eugenics, but it’s definitely dedicated to your mast, George Soros, and all spreading the neo Marxism that is the foundation of the modern democrat party.
Just like you.
c) Doesn't matter; what matters is "planned parenthood" is STEALING by Gov-Guns $600M a year from unwilling citizens.
The idea that Americans might personally oppose abortion but also disfavor banning it isn't new.
Same with rape and pedophilia, apparently.
Look, let's just put it down clearly: the "personally oppose" tack is a copout.
"Well I wouldn't do it," is a copout.
"Well, I wouldn't want my daughter to do it," is a copout.
"Well, it's not really my position to say," is a copout.
"Well, I think it's wrong but...," is a copout.
The question is simple: do you support the legal protection of an elective procedure which intends and accomplishes the willful termination of an in utero human being?
If your answer is yes, then just SAY THAT. Don't try to mitigate it by vacillating over this "personally oppose" nonsense. You support the legal baby killing. That's it. Own it.
If your answer is no, then just SAY THAT. Don't try to mitigate it by vacillating over this "personally oppose" nonsense but try to be understanding of everyone's personal circumstances. You do NOT support the legal baby killing. That's it. Own it.
Human garbage like ENB here go out of their way to obfuscate the issue. The most obvious way is by pretending like the issue has ANYTHING to do with "women's health." Which is unequivocally DOES NOT. The woman in the scenario has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the question that demands answering, and by an extremely wide margin is the ONLY reason it's an issue in the first place. The woman is irrelevant. The only relevant one is the one we're talking about intentionally killing.
She even devotes a full section to this nonsense. 'The Real Issue Is Bodily Autonomy'
No, the real issue is killing babies. And you're just trying to obfuscate that fact.
The end of Roe turned out to be the biggest boost the pro-choice movement has ever had.
Yea, because the pro-borts are butthurt. It revealed them for the sociopathic psychotics we always said they were. "Well... well, if you're going to overturn abortion protection, THEN WE'RE GOING TO KILL EVEN MORE BABIES! SO THERE!" Why else do you think they've become so unhinged?
They're not even pretending anymore. "34 weeks? Kill it. 38 weeks? Kill it. On the table. I SAID KILL IT!!!!!" Ship me drugs across state lines after nothing more than a phone call so I can do it myself, regardless of the risks or active care of a physician.
They're like humiliated, pissed-off children who got their mouth washed out with soap for using profanity, so now they're doubling-down and increasing in frequency and extremeness. Like that's going to make them more sympathetic or worth listening to.
The pro-borts are just like the LGBT. They've doubled-down on crazy because they can see just how much America is turning against them. Folks aren't falling for the weaponized empathy anymore, so now the scumbags are dispensing with pretense and going fill-tilt insane.
But she doesn't support abortion bans, because they can "drive people into dangerous alternatives"
Oh the horror. I guess we should just make their atrocities easy to commit. We wouldn't want the homicidal sociopaths facing any danger in their course of action.
"Women forever have tried to have abortions, and then they just died. It's good to have people that are still alive," says Zaiac.
WHY.
No, seriously. Why. Why is a mother who has just killed the most vulnerable person imaginable "good" to still have alive? She just killed a baby. Her own baby. Why would ANYONE show any respect for her whatsoever?
I know why. It's the same reason Statists don't want them pregnant, and want them thinking that motherhood is an oppressive burden that will ruin their livelihood and happiness. It's the same reason feminism - all waves - was a progressive State-serving goal.
Dependency. Dependency on and subservience to the State. Who, hilariously, cons them into believing they're being liberated by it all.
FYI:
Republicans wrote Roe v Wade.
Catholic Democrats "feminists" initiated the Pro-Life movement.
Dobbs had absolutely ZERO effect on anything over 21-weeks.
"No, the real issue is killing babies." - That is *already* illegal; has been for centuries.
The *real* issue is people's imagination ran-wild. Generating loads of pure BS-propaganda about imaginary creatures (unicorns) being real in their heads and nowhere else. Defying every definition in the English language.
That is *already* illegal; has been for centuries.
Do you work for the FBI? Are you one of those wackos who just stand around saying, "Well, if I choose not to acknowledge it, then it doesn't exist! Crime is down because I'm just pretending crime isn't crime!"
Good State Lap Dog. Treat?
At least they focus their attention on distrust of governmental competence. I’m certainly not saying I trust prosecutors to always be fair in drawing the line in “life of the mother” cases. What to do about these tragic situations is not an easy issue, but that doesn’t make it insoluble. Maybe special magistrates with medical training, on an expedited basis, should be authorized to allow life-of-the-mother situations and immunize doctors from prosecution.
But if we’re going to distrust the government, as we should, how can we trust them to say, outside the life of the mother context, which innocent living human beings are worth protecting? Most abortions aren’t life-of-the-mother, but are strictly optional, in the sense that you can avoid the abortion and *not* die or get crippled, etc.
As far as “who’s to say who’s human, let’s not prosecute these killings,” we’ve seen how this rationale operated in excusing lynchings of people who were considered less worthy.
Also, some killing of fetuses take place in labs, not wombs. "My laboratory, my choice" doesn't really resonate much.
Or people could just learn to honor the US Constitution and realize it's not the job of 'government' to force their neighbors body to procreate.
What about killing human beings in laboratories? A laboratory isn't someone's body.
If it has an *inherent* life to right; you have a very substantial case.
If it doesn’t you don’t have a leg to stand on.
ALL Human Rights are *inherent*. If they aren’t *inherent* they aren’t rights at all but instead *entitlements* that take away other people's human rights.
Dobbs was a terrible decision and should have been overturned.
The decision should be made at the state level.
Some states will go too far in banning abortions.
Some states will go too far in allowing unrestricted abortions.
The true terms are Pro-Abortion and Anti-Abortion.
At some point a fetus develops into a human.
The fetus didn't have a choice.
In the majority of cases the woman made a choice to have sex that resulted in a pregnancy.
Women should have the right to make the choice to have sex or not.
Men should have the right to make the choice to have sex or not.
Have sex against your will is wrong.
Even under the case of rape the fetus didn't have a choice.
At some point a fetus will react to stimulus that would cause pain.
Even if a fetus can't understand the concept of pain the reaction is real.
More than just the woman and the right to her own body is involved.
In most cases the woman made the choice to have sex that resulted in the pregnancy.
The longer a fetus is alive and growing in the womb the more consideration of the life of the fetus should be factored.
Early in a pregnancy most women may not be aware that they are pregnant.
As the pregnancy continues, most women become aware that they are pregnant.
In most cases the woman understands that making the choice to have sex can result in becoming pregnant.
In most cases a woman makes the choice that results in a pregnancy.
The best solution to the abortion issue is somewhere in the middle.
Six weeks is probably too short.
Fifteen weeks is probably too long.
Abortion policy should not be dictated by the exception.
Abortion policy should consider and have a method for exceptions.
Exceptions should not be automatic.
Exceptions should be review for validity.
Planned Parenthood is not an honest broker, but rather a biased Pro-Abortion clinic with profit incentives.
Anti-Abortion organizations are not honest brokers and have a bias.
"Dobbs was a terrible decision"
I assume you meant Roe.
"The decision should be made at the state level."
No, the decision should be made at the individual level. The government shouldn't be involved at all before viability.
"Some states will go too far in banning abortions"
Ya think?
"Some states will go too far in allowing unrestricted abortions"
Define "too far". Because anything pre-viability isn't "too far".
"The true terms are Pro-Abortion and Anti-Abortion."
Since one wants to force people to act a certain way and the other wants to allow people to make their own decisions, that's a false statement. Anti-abortion and pro-choice are the most accurate descriptors.
"At some point a fetus develops into a human"
Yes. And before that, it's a potential human. Until 21 weeks, calling it anything more than a potential human is dishonest.
"In the majority of cases the woman made a choice to have sex that resulted in a pregnancy"
Which is irrelevant to an abortion discussion. Disapproval of people who have sex for pleasure, but don't want to have a child, isn't valid.
"Even under the case of rape the fetus didn’t have a choice"
Because it isn't capable of choosing anything. It doesn't have a brain. That doesn't mean the woman must subjugate herself to a potential human being. Actual human is more important than potential human 100% of the time.
"In most cases a woman makes the choice that results in a pregnancy"
Which is still completely irrelevant to an abortion discussion.
"The best solution to the abortion issue is somewhere in the middle"
Ya think?
"Six weeks is probably too short"
Since a fetus doesn't have any major organs yet, yiu can scratch "probably".
"Fifteen weeks is probably too long"
Why? What has changed in the intervening 9 weeks, besides being 9 weeks closer to viability?
"Abortion policy should not be dictated by the exception"
I would argue against that. 21 weeks is the exception for viability, 24 weeks is the average, and 28 weeks is a virtual certainty (except for fetuses that will never achieve viability). I would argue that the moment a fetus has a non-zero chance of survival, abortion should no longer be an option. But if you prefer 24 weeks, you do you.
"Exceptions should not be automatic"
Who decides? A doctor or a politician? And how long does the pregnant woman gave to wait for the decision? Until after the deadline passes? Because that's the tactic of the fraudulent "crisis pregnancy centers" and it's morally indefensible.
"Planned Parenthood is not an honest broker, but rather a biased Pro-Abortion clinic with profit incentives."
Sure, an organization who has 98% non-abortion appointments is dishonest, but the ones who demonize Planned Parenthood and lie about their activities are honest? Please.
"Anti-Abortion organizations are not honest brokers and have a bias"
Wait, their raison d'etre means they can't be trusted to be truthful about abortion? Shocking.
So if these are your opinions, what is your conclusion and why is it so strongly supported by facts and logic that it should be imposed on the population at large?
Since you believe inconvenience is a basis for murder, I assume you then agree that I’m within my rights to unilaterally decide to execute you, or any other democrat as I see fit. As you are all a major problem for all Americans, we have the right to eliminate you as we see fit.
Sounds good to me!
Since a fetus isn't a person or a baby or a human being or a child or anything else that can be murdered, it isn't murder. Your "kill anyone to the left of Atilla the Hun" murder-porn, however, is.
I’m going to refute what you said with several points.
If you don’t refute each of them we can only conclude that you either don’t want to or can’t .
1. Sanity is demonstrated with the recognition and acceptance of reality aka truth.
2. Reality, truth is determined to the best of human capability with correctly applied logic and science.
This is the scientific definition of life.
“The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.“
Correctly applied logic and science proves for sane people that the human individual fetus as demonstrated with unique human DNA already exhibits all of these characteristics that define life. Its reproductive organs are developing just like yours probably still are.
"1. Sanity is demonstrated with the recognition and acceptance of reality aka truth."
Agreed. This is why everyone here thinks you're insane. Proceed.
"2. Reality, truth is determined to the best of human capability with correctly applied logic and science."
Agreed, which is why your Holocaust denial isn't consistent with reality. Proceed.
"This is the scientific definition of life"
Well, there's your first problem. The dispute isn't over whether a fetus is alive in a biological sense. It's about whether a non-viable fetus has rights that are equal or superior to a real, fully-formed, actual human being.
So you're having an argument about something with no one else on the opposite side. But, proceed.
Oh, wait. That's it? Well, then you're either dishonestly arguing against a strawman or not in touch with reality.
Considering the source, either is as likely as the other.
"Its reproductive organs are developing just like yours probably still are."
I'm 53 years old. The last time anything other than basal cell carcinomas and unsightly skin tags developed was years ago.
We agree that the fetus is alive. That’s something.
You simply deny that a fetus is a person, based on its age.
Firstly there is no rational correlation between age and the definition of a person or the right to life.
Secondly since there is no mention of age discrimination against the right to life in the constitution, your position is unconstitutional.
Let me walk you through the correctly applied science and logic, so you don’t become lost.
This easy to follow string of definitions clearly demonstrate that the authority that gives meaning to all language, dictionaries, recognizes the unborn as persons,
Unborn unique DNA = individual = human being = person = child = baby
Definition of DNA fingerprinting
the use of a DNA probe for the identification of an individual
Definition of individual
A person
Definition of human being
“any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.”
Definition of person
“a human being, whether an adult or child:
Definition of baby
A human fetus
Definition of child
A human fetus
Dictionary.com
Now the choice is once again yours.
Recognize the truth that a fetus is a living human person, being sane, or don’t and be an insane advocate of murder.
Yeah, I responded to this nonsense above. The short version? Your logic also concludes that the Holocaust didn't happen and your definitions are from an online dictionary that can be edited by anyone. I could literally define "house" as "heir to a patriarch's fortune" and it would show up.
Your logic is deeply flawed and your definitions are nonsense. At least other anti-abortionists here try to cite valid sources.
You are denying the science and logic of what DNA fingerprinting actually does. Spelled out in the dictionary for you.
In all cases you deny the factual meanings of words you use as defined by dictionaries. If you think that you have refuted the veracity of dictionary definitions, prove it.
You certainly haven’t refuted anything that I’ve said, including the false WW2 holocaust story. You’ve obviously seen it, but you remained silent.
I’m afraid to ask how you determine the meaning of words.
By your own admission you have chosen insanity.
"Spelled out in the dictionary for you."
Spelled out in a dictionary that allows "tree" to be defined as "car". You really have no clue as to what a credible source is.
"You certainly haven’t refuted anything that I’ve said, including the false WW2 holocaust story."
If you don't think Holocaust denial had been refuted, you won't be convinced that anything you choose to believe can be refuted. It's a failing in you, not anything or anyone else.
There was a time Human Rights were decided at the State-Level.
It was at the same time Slavery-States was a thing.
That battle was already fought by a civil war and brought about the 13th & 14th Amendments insisting that State's couldn't violate US Constitutional privileges & immunities of US citizens (i.e. Bill of Rights).
The slave-owner states considered it 'Federal' over-reach. There can be debate on if it was or not. I don't agree; The Bill of Rights wasn't written so State's could ignore them when they wanted too on some BS claim it was 'US Constitutional' over-reach into State Sovereignty.
"In recent years, by contrast, the news has been filled with stories of women who very much want children but find that continuing a pregnancy threatens their lives, will end with a baby suffering and dying soon after birth, or will lead to similarly tragic circumstances. Front and center are stories of women for whom abortion is the only option compatible with compassion, health, and life."
This is called making outlying cases seem like the norm and is logical fallacy exploited by special interests for propaganda purposes. It is a form of lying.
Yeah, anti-abortionists should stop doing that.
Do they really think anyone believes their “post birth abortion” lie (although that one is a straight-up lie, not an overstatement)?
Or that “third trimester abortions” and “almost never” aren’t synonymous?
Or that most abortions are surgical?
Oh, wait. You thought the pro-choice side was the only dishonest one? That’s incomprehensibly delusional.
Coming next: Slaves against emancipation!
The greatest benefit of Roe v Wade was to keep the state out of people's business. This is an individual level decision.
It only did that for one particular thing....
One step at a time. Taking two steps back isn't an improvement.
Exactly. If someone wants to beat their wife, rape their kids, and dogfight their pets – what business of it is anyone else? Mind your own business.
If someone wants to beat themselves, rape themselves or dogfight themselves; what business of it is anyone else's???
Mind your own F'En business!!!!!!! Correct.
You don't get to use your own *imagination* and dream-up that a 2nd perpetrator exists unless you can put that perpetrator into the *REAL* world. Unicorns (figments-of-your-imagination) doesn't qualify as perpetrators.
No, I specifically said they cause harm to another human - or even non-human. How is abortion any different than the spousal abuse, child rape, or dogfighting? Mind your business, right? Hey, let's tie it to LGBT pedo while we're at it. What happens behind closed doors, no?
They’re "uncomfortable"? Yeah, well, being killed is uncomfortable for the babies. How NPD do you have to be to think that your feelz are more important than dead babies? Oh, wait, that would be leftists and libbertarians.