Laurence Tribe Bizarrely Claims Trump Won the 2016 Election by Falsifying Business Records in 2017
That take on the former president's New York conviction echoes similarly puzzling claims by many people who should know better.

"In 2016," Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe writes, quoting Democracy Docket's Marc Elias, "Donald Trump seemed to pull an inside straight by narrowly winning" Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin "while losing the popular vote by 3 million. We now know Trump committed 34 felonies to win that election. Without these crimes, he seems almost certain to have lost to Hillary Clinton. She would have been sworn in on Jan. 20, 2017. She would have filled two Supreme Court vacancies and enacted her legislative agenda."*
Since those 34 felonies involved falsified business records that were produced in 2017, that claim is logically impossible. Yet this gloss on the former president's New York conviction echoes similarly puzzling claims by many smart and ostensibly well-informed observers. In their eagerness to embrace the prosecution's dubious "election fraud" narrative, they nonsensically assert that Trump retroactively ensured his 2016 victory by disguising a 2017 hush-money reimbursement as payment for legal services.
Shortly before the 2016 presidential election, Michael Cohen, then Trump's lawyer, paid porn star Stormy Daniels $130,000 to keep her from telling her story about sex with Trump at a Lake Tahoe hotel during a celebrity golf tournament in July 2006. When Trump paid Cohen back in 2017, prosecutors said, he caused the falsification of business records to cover up the arrangement with Daniels by misrepresenting the reimbursement as compensation for legal work. However you view that misrepresentation, it obviously had no impact on the outcome of the election. Yet Tribe, Elias, and other people bizarrely insist that it did.
"Two years shy of this country's 250th birthday," Rice University historian Douglas Brinkley said on CBS last Sunday, "12 New York jurors have convicted former president Donald Trump on 34 counts of falsifying business records in an attempt to influence the outcome of the 2016 presidential election." The dates of those records—11 invoices, 11 checks, and 12 ledger entries—ranged from February 14, 2017, to December 5, 2017. All of them were created after Trump was elected. You might expect that a historian would pay attention to chronological consistency.
You might expect the same from editorialists at major newspapers. Yet according to a May 30 Washington Post editorial, the jury found Trump "guilty of felony falsification of business records in order to influence the 2016 election." A New York Times editorial published the same day likewise claimed the jury found Trump "guilty of falsifying business records to prevent voters from learning about a sexual encounter that he believed would have been politically damaging." Barring time travel, of course, nothing Trump did in 2017 could have "influence[d] the 2016 election" or "prevent[ed] voters from learning about" that "sexual encounter" before they cast their ballots.
The same temporal difficulty is apparent in news coverage of Trump's trial. "Prosecutors will attempt to make the case that Trump falsified business records to tip the 2016 race," Al Jazeera said in April. "Trump faces 34 felony counts alleging that he falsified New York business records in order to conceal damaging information to influence the 2016 presidential election," NPR reported a week later.
Judging from some accounts of the trial's outcome, prosecutors succeeded in proving that the 2017 records reached back in time to influence the 2016 election. "Former President Donald Trump has been found guilty of 34 counts of falsifying business records to influence the outcome of the 2016 presidential election," NPR reported. The subhead of a Times story published the day after the verdict said, "The former president was convicted of 34 felony counts of falsifying business records to cover up a sex scandal that threatened to derail his 2016 campaign." The Associated Press reported that the jury found Trump "guilty of all 34 charges in a scheme to illegally influence the 2016 election through a hush money payment to a porn actor who said the two had sex."
These confounding characterizations reflect the bait and switch at the heart of the case against Trump. "We allege falsification of business records to the end of keeping information away from the electorate," Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg said in January. "It's an election interference case." In his opening statement, lead prosecutor Matthew Colangelo claimed the case was about "election fraud, pure and simple."
There was nothing "pure and simple" about the case, which did not involve "election fraud" at all. Although the prosecutors repeatedly insinuated that there was something inherently criminal about trying to hide potentially damaging information from voters, that is not true. And although they averred that Cohen's payment to Daniels amounted to an illegal campaign contribution under the Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA), that interpretation of the statute is controversial. In any case, fronting the hush money did not constitute "election fraud," which is usually understood to mean interfering with the casting, counting, or reporting of votes.
Trump was not charged with violating FECA by soliciting Cohen's "contribution." The Justice Department declined to bring that case, probably because it would have been hard to prove that Trump "knowingly and willfully" violated the statute, given the fuzziness of the distinction between personal and campaign expenditures. Even if the deadline for prosecuting Trump under FECA had not passed, Bragg would have no authority to enforce that statute. So instead he resorted to an elaborate workaround that relied on various possible combinations of interacting statutes and questionable assumptions about Trump's knowledge and intent.
The FECA claim was just one of three dueling theories for treating Trump's alleged falsification of business records as a felony rather than a misdemeanor. The other two theories did not hinge on the assumption that the Daniels payment was illegal. And since the jurors were told they did not have to settle on any particular theory, it is not clear which one they found most compelling. Even if they split three ways on that crucial point, they were still allowed to reach a guilty verdict.
All of this is pretty confusing, so it is not surprising that many people have inaccurately described the meaning of the verdict, especially since Bragg and his underlings repeatedly misrepresented the nature of the case. But it is surprising that so many people who should know better have described the verdict in a way that could not possibly be true.
*CORRECTION: This post has been revised to clarify that Tribe was quoting Elias.
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He won because Hillary cut loose a significant segment of voters in flyover country with the whole 'basket of deplorables' incident, and also by being so thoroughly unlikable.
Harvard professors aren't as smart as they used to be.
And then spending the last campaigning days in CA, to really send the message that she doesn't give a shit about anyone center--> right
CA was a very important State for Hillary. More than 150% of her total margin in the popular vote came from Los Angeles County alone.
Not to mention just flying over flyover country instead of campaigning in it.
Also the Goldman Sach speach saying she basically lies to people in public. Clinton Foundation pay to play. And how DNC put thum on scale against Sanders. Oh and the cackling and too tired. And least not warmongering.
Yep. Hillary has nobody to blame for her loss but her own damned self. Conceit is a hell of a drug.
As for Tribe, I chalk this up to just one more case of extreme TDS. It's a pity, he was once a lucid and talented lawyer.
-jcr
She was and is one of the most unlikeable people in political history. That and alienating most of the country outside of the coasts. She is also an "election denier".
Tribe is one of the assholes in the asshole factory.
They only have to fool some people all the time.
You only have to fool the poll watchers some of the time - - - - - - - -
Sam Harris: Anything is justified...
It's okay when we deceive, but religion, grrrrrrr....
I love you quote that. Never let people forget about Sam losing his mind and reputation.
By the way, this is the best article written anywhere on the state of the libertarian party. And I mean that unironically.
Throughout former President Donald Trump’s speech at the Libertarian National Convention last week, he was booed more than cheered. Multiple shouting matches erupted between Libertarians protesting Trump (their signs included “MAGA = Socialist” and “No More Dictators”) and Trump supporters there to cheer on their hero. As the protests and boos continued, Trump shot back at the Libertarians, telling them if they didn’t nominate him as their candidate, they would “keep getting your 3% every four years.”
On Sunday, the Libertarians didn’t choose the former president as their nominee, opting instead for one of their own, 38-year-old party activist Chase Oliver, who represents the socially progressive wing of the Libertarian Party. In his home state of Georgia, Oliver previously ran for Georgia’s 5th Congressional District special election to replace the late John Lewis and then in the 2022 Georgia Senate election where he amassed enough votes to force a run-off between the GOP and Democratic candidates.
Reflecting the sentiments of the Trump-booing libertarians, Oliver expressed his disdain for the former president in a RealClearPolitics interview Tuesday.
“I think if Donald Trump was really a candidate worth his salt, he wouldn't have to worry about 3%. But he knows he has to worry about it because his base has been shrinking,” Oliver said. Although he explained he didn’t approve of how Twitter coordinated with federal agencies to censor speech, he stood by his Jan. 8, 2021, tweet where he wrote, “Bye @realDonaldTrump glad you are banned,” telling RCP that “Twitter has been a lot better without him.”
Oliver’s socially liberal views are most pronounced on the issues of abortion and transgender rights for minors.
Oliver managed to chase away the MC members of the LP. He’s not getting 3%.
He might not get .3%
Good.
He’ll be lucky to get 1%. Jorgensen ran a disappointing campaign and this is going to be another setback.
It's the LP, it's setbacks all the way down and the biggest one just happens to be the membership themselves.
^This.
He might actually lose the LP ballet access in a few states. He is that popular.
As McArdle said, she's going to spend all the LP money promoting Chase in blue states. He has zero cross over with those not in social blue states. His abortion tweet lying about a law, claiming federally funded abortion was abortion access is just one example. Him getting owned by Liz on trans Healthcare was another.
I'm feeling the same way about libertarianism that Brendan O'Neill said about the left.
Interviewer to O'Neill: When did you leave the left?
O'Neill: I never left the left. The left left me.
All institutions will be captured eventually by the left. CATO has gone way down hill the last decade.
Non productive institutions, ie think tanks, seem to draw the non productive leftists, see journalism.
So does government work and education.
Attached…Reasons and Catos boner for government employee density pumps! It never made sense to me to invest in lower ROI with density (as they claim- rents will come down). I’m assuming these urban planning and urban economist job security activists were played by very wealthy short sellers (maybe Cato). Will anyone ask the taxpayer salaried urban planners and economists “What would you say ya do here?
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/insurance/wall-streets-cre-clo-machine-is-wiping-out-apartment-investors
New jobs report Obamacare jobs, government jobs and part time. We’re gonna run out of full time workers to pay for the high density apartment subsidies:-)
What I gleaned from her Oliver endorsement is that she hopes Oliver gets enough Biden votes in blue states to get Trump elected. I'm guessing that's her personal hope not necessarily an official party position. As usual the Ls wildly overestimate their influence which, thanks to this nomination, will be pretty much non existent in 2028. I don't expect that the Libertarian Party will exist as a national party a year from now.
With luck he'll split more blue votes than red.
Liz owned him on trans healthcare? Where did this happen? I have to see it!
Might be the first time the LP begs to NOT have their candidate appear on the debate stage with the GOP and DNC.
As long as they can still get into Paris Opera or Bolshoi…
Although he explained he didn’t approve of how Twitter coordinated with federal agencies to censor speech, he stood by his Jan. 8, 2021, tweet where he wrote, “Bye @realDonaldTrump glad you are banned,” telling RCP that “Twitter has been a lot better without him.”
What a piece of shit he is. He claims to be against state abuses but is found to applaud every one. Just like post May 30th. His first post was laughing about the state abuse because of who it effected.
Sounds like someone in here.
Damn. Youre right. So chase is also a one true libertarian.
Did he take an online test?
Yes. It said he had to get his dick cut off.
I guess that would make Chase a trans-libertarian.
Boy, I'm glad the LP nominated a candidate so wedded to the concept of protecting liberties.
Just checking: What are the BENEFITS of voting for this clown?
Who?
To be fair, Trump was and is more socially liberal than most Republicans.
He's a PBL (Pajama Boy Libertarian).
Long TDS is a terrible thing.
The only solution is euthanasia.
I hear Ivermectin is a viable treatment.
Ivermectin hasn’t cured Chris Cuomo’s TDS yet.
TDS lying pig.
Since those 34 felonies involved falsified business records that were produced in 2017, Tribe's claim is logically impossible. Yet his gloss on the former president's New York conviction echoes similarly puzzling claims by many smart and ostensibly well-informed observers.
They are going to push this big lie as often and as hard as they can, and damn the irony. Much like the inventor of the 'big lie', they know at least some people are dumb enough to buy it due to the sheer audacity of the lie.
Somehow, they don't notice that as shit as Trump is they are making him look good by comparison. This is what political bubbles and political balkanization has wrought.
Trump would look and sound like a shitty used car salesman if the Democrats and bureaucratic establishment stopped being evil.
They will cry foul if the Court of Appeals overturns the verdict and sends it back down.
Do they have to be unanimous on which trial issue should kick out the verdict?
😉
So, how was Stormy Daniels not committing blackmail with her “Pay me or I’ll spread the story of our liaison all over” demands? And would it have affected the vote anyway? Everyone knew about Trump’s dalliances.
And would it have affected the vote anyway?
2016? Maybe. Conservatives still had some principles back then.
Oh those glorious neocons. The romneys and McCain. They were so dreamy.
Romney was painted as a racist and dangerously out of touch on foreign policy when he was running for President. After he lost, suddenly he was pals with Democrats again. What changed one wonders?
McCain was painted as a dangerous lunatic while running for President. After he lost, suddenly he was Democrats best friend again. What changed there?
What changed is they both lost, and after they lost they were once again irrelevant. Democrats didn't have to worry about them, so they could once again be friends with dangerous lunatics and racists...?
Anyone else feel like they're taking crazy pills?
Nope. Very similar to emotional abuse. The GOPe seems addicted to that abuse.
Romney was always a jerk, but that never stopped the even jerkier Republicans from running him against Obama. In 2012, voters were pissed about three things, the bailouts, the TARP and Obamacare. Romney favored the first two and developed the prototype for the third. He was Obama with better hair, or was it that Obama was Romney with a better tan?
McCain had extraordinary physical courage but his courage never extended to principles. The man would kill all earmarks suspended his campaign to run back to Washington to vote for Hank Paulson's $700B TARP ($840B with the usual 20% "pork tax" tacked on to pass this "End of the World" bill). Paulson cried "The sky is falling" and Chicken Little McCain didn't have the guts to look up and say bullshit.
The funny part is that the Dems castigated him for thinking Russia was a threat.
Hey Drunky, you shouldn’t talk about principles. As you don’t have any.
This fundamentally misunderstands why people voted for him and continue to do so.
I doubt it would have changed anything. Trump wasn't Hillary.
Besides, after the Senate let Bill Clinton slide a new bar was set for ho tolerance.
There may have been an under the table deal.
A permanent stain on the office.
Ejaculgate
If we’re going to do that, can we back up a second to how did NARA and the FBI know which, if any, of Trumps ‘stolen documents’ were classified without knowing what, if anything (consequential), was taken?
Because, in order to say something like “Nuclear secrets were stolen.” especially over such a long time for someone who had access to them, you’d have to got to filing cabinet full of nuclear secrets, and see that the files are in “ABCEFGHIKLMNOPQRSUVWXYZ” order but D, J, and T are missing and assert Trump stole the D, J, and T files or that the page numbers skip from 39 to 41 or whatever. Then, knowing that D, J, T, and page 40 are missing, you can select agents who are cleared to retrieve and view the D, J, and T files and page 40, have them testify as to the sorts of people who shouldn’t see them. And send them to retrieve them. Photos of classified documents and the guy who spearheaded the raid can explain what shouldn't have been taken and why, after the fact, specifically doesn’t cut it.
Otherwise, you just completely fabricated a surrounding crime without evidence in order to conduct an illegal raid on a former President. And the FBI agents, who can’t possibly have clearance for information not knowingly taken, wind up going through his house with obvious “We don’t know what he took but just look around and we’ll find something.” orders and sweeping up tons of immaterial records and even things like passports.
No-one (not Tribe or anyone else) knows how failure to catch'n'kill Daniels' story would have affected the 2016 election, but it has been established beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law that Trump and company were *worried* that it might and so did what they did.
Whoa.... did I miss a step? The Stormy Daniels story hit days before the election, but the "crime" (the recording of the money as other than "hush money") was on a form filed in 2017???? Is this new info, or did the Trump team not play this loud and clear for all to hear.... that the "crime" was in 2017 at which point it could not possibly have effected the 2016 election.
It was a key part of the defense on cross.
Yeah. You missed a step. For weeks.
Yup, guess I zoned out after I gave up any hope that there would be anything other than a lynching of Trump.
Mea culpa.
No no, see, the falsifying of records may have technically happened in 2017, but it was a part of a dark and sinister conspiracy to illegally affect the 2016 election, so it still counts. Because the electorate had a right to know that Donny might have banged Stormy a decade prior.
Meanwhile, James Comey is still a traitorous dog for making hay about Hillary’s private email server right before the same election. Mentioning that utterly irrelevant non-story may well have cost her the election, and unjustly so.
/sin,
Leftist Morons.
Cohen paid her in 2016. The agreement to pay back Cohen happened in 2016. It just was set up to be monthly retainer payments (even though by the time the payments began it was 2017) Trump was in the white house and had a whole team of lawyers that did not include Cohen. There was no retainer.
This whole line of excuse is kinda stupid. If A and B enter into a criminal conspiracy in 2016 and take a substantial step towards committing it (Cohen paying Stormy 130k) in 2016 and then take steps to cover up or hide the conspiracy in 2017 they can still be charged for conspiring in 2016 when it originated.
Its not like Nov 2016 is very far from Jan 2017.
We've ready established in prior threads youre not an actual attorney.
NDAs aren't illegal. So the conspiracy was for a legal payment to a lawyer?
You may want to read from actual lawyers instead of MSNBC. When even the CNN legal analyst can't defend it your activist legal construction is probably wrong.
It is certainly debateable whether it was all done legally or not. The prosecution established that the Stormy payment was done for the sake of helping the election (and not to protect Melania's fragile soul). This was interpreted as an in-kind loan to the campaign. It would have been a gift except Trump paid him back (and fraudulently recorded it as a reimbursement).
I'm on the fence as to whether or not this is an actual campaign finance violation. I am certain though, that Trump kept it secret for the purposse of aiding his campaign. He knew that if his rubes were aware of his mistresses it could cost him votes. At the time we actually thought his Christian supporters cared about things like character. It only looks dubious now because we know his supporters don't care about character and morals. Except maybe Ted Cruz's five mistresses.
You know who disagrees with you? An ex FEC commissioner/lawyer who went through the long history of campaign laws. Campaign laws do not cover every personal expense that may help a campaign. Buying a house in a district is required to be elected to many officers, not a campaign expense. He even gives examples of politicians settling lawsuits prior to running. Not a campaign expense.
Ignorance of actual election law doesn’t make NDAs illegal. Such as the hundreds of thousands Congress has paid out with Congressional funds to settle and produce NDAs.
Just because something sounds right on first impression does not mean it is correct.
Trump and most celebrities have long histories of NDAs. It was the entire business of Stormys lawyer. These would be disallowed as campaign expenses as they existed before the election and were a normal practice. This was true in the Edwards case as well despite using campaign funds, the main charge.
So no, it wasn’t a loan, it wasn’t a campaign expenditure, it wasn’t for the election in isolation, it was not an allowed campaign expense.
I am certain though, that Trump kept it secret for the purposse of aiding his campaign.
The law is not executed criminally on best guesses. Sorry. You have zero evidence for this.
“The prosecution established that the Stormy payment was done for the sake of helping the election”
That’s what they asserted. A fucking moron could tell you that is not true (given his very public persona of being a pussy hound and months after the Access Hollywood tape), but then democrats are dumber than shit.
“It is certainly debateable whether it was all done legally or not. The prosecution established that the Stormy payment was done for the sake of helping the election (and not to protect Melania’s fragile soul).”
Except per ACTUAL experts on election law — no, they did not. You might want to read up on that.
"This was interpreted as an in-kind loan to the campaign."
Since when has there ever been a limit on how much one can give to their own campaign?
" I am certain though, that Trump kept it secret for the purposse of aiding his campaign. He knew that if his rubes were aware of his mistresses it could cost him votes."
Using your logic, paying for a haircut would be a campaign violation.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that everything that you say is true (and absurdity)...
For a felony to have been committed (in your scenario), Trump would have to have known about the obscure NY state law that made it a felony to do this. This would be considering that it had NEVER EVEN been used in this manner before.
This is a practical impossibility.
Obviously, NDAs are not illegal, but a criminal conspiracy involving an NDA certainly can be.
Trump was not charged with the separate crime of "conspiracy", but the prosecution presented evidence to a jury that he had engaged in one (to unlawfully influence the 2016 election), the result of which was to bump up his 2017 misdemeanor falsifications of business records to felonies. The evidence for the conspiracy was initially established by Trump's 2016 actions, which were "followed through" by his 2017 actions, but the obvious purpose of the entire scheme was to influence the 2016 elections, not to keep the incident quiet in 2017.
As I've said before, I wasn't there, but from what I read about it I still don't think the evidence was strong enough to convict Trump in this case. But the case was not "logically impossible" unless you just don't understand how conspiracy works in the context of criminal law.
Consequently, news outlets characterizing Trump's 34 felony convictions as, "falsifying business records [in 2017] to influence the outcome of the 2016 presidential election" is obviously a simplified explanation of what the case was about, not an admission that time travel exists.
The jury found him guilty of all counts. Now Trump has an uphill battle to overturn that verdict. David Pecker and AMI entered into a non prosecution agreement with the feds re: Karen McDougal. The same investigation that resulted in Cohen doing time. If none of this NDA business is or could be illegal; then why would AMI lawyer's advise the company to enter into any agreement? Pay fines?
You might want to go back through the testimony to see what Pecker said regarding "helping the campaign." Ditto for Cohen. Whether you MAGA folk ignore it or not; the timing of the payment after the Access Hollywood leaked tape is certainly circumstantial evidence that its plausible the campaign could have been negatively affected. Even if it didn't matter in hindsight; if it mattered to the campaign in the moment (there was testimony of crisis mode) then that testimony corroborates the State's theory.
Just because Trump is terrible at crime doesn't mean he isn't guilty of crime. He surrounds himself with criminals, hired them, worked with them for decades and you smooth brains are shocked it finally caught up with him? He put the biggest spotlight in the world on himself, his associates and his business organization and there were too many skeletons in the closet to hide.
Conspiring to win an election? I thought that was called "campaigning".
That jury would have convicted Trump of being "the second gunman on the grassy knoll" had that been the charge. That judge would have instructed the jury that they could ignore the testimony of Trump's mother that he was in New York at the time since his mother once lied to Donald about Santa Claus.
Comey also leaked classified information to a journalist and nothing happened.
And he did it specifically to handcuff Trump for years.
He needs to be brought up on charges for that.
The actual crime Bragg was going after Trump for was defeating Hillary in the 2017 election. That is how Tribe's talking points make sense.
So Tribe is not just accusing Trump of violating federal election law, he is accusing Trump of violating causality.
And probably the laws of physics in general. Possibly even the laws of thermodynamics………
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuxbMfKO9Pg
Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if they put Trump on trial for flying a kite at night.
The Time Cop couldn't travel to 2016 to stop Trump from altering the outcome of the election.
Someday AI will create a super robot capable of time travel who will kill baby Trump in his crib. None of this will have happened.
None of what would have happened?
Remember, Trump is "literally" Hitler who died in 1945 so Trump/Hitler has already violated the laws of nature.
Here's how a proggie lawyer explained it to me: Trump and his lawyer obviously conspired to have lawyer pay the hush money using the lawyer's money. That way, Daniels, or someone in her camp, couldn't wave around a check with Trump's name on it and possibly cost him votes in 2016. Then Trump reimbursed lawyer in 2017 after the election is over. Nothing illegal about the hush money payment nor if Trump in 2017 had "properly" labelled it on his business records. But he didn't.
Did you ask what the proper label was?
Obviously whatever he didn’t label it. Just like how no predicate crime was ever specified.
What is the proper label?
"For Criminal Election Fraud"
They conspired to do something completely legal? Having Cohen pay doesn't magically turn the payment into a crime or even a campaign expense.
Are payments to lawyers and their expenses not legal expenses?
Not when the lawyer is doing something that amounts to an in-kind campaign loan.
It wasn't.
It wasn't.
You all act like Cohen and Trump didn't have a long history of this sort of agreement which the prosecutions own witnesses confirmed.
Yet somehow you all have the fact it was done solely for the campaign.
MSNBC law school is terrible. Just drop out now.
When you ask your lawyer to buy you a Ferrari, "legal expenses" do not include the cost of the Ferrari.
Did your proggie lawyer friend advise on how HE/SHE bills clients?
Do they spell out every single thing they did? Or do they just bill for hours and do not go into detail into every meeting they had, call they made, form they filed, etc?
Cohen lied. He embezzled tens of thousands from Trump. Clearly, Trump did not fully know what he was doing. He even admitted to taking out a home equity loan so nobody would know where the money came from, including his own wife.
Your allegation that the $130,000 (which somehow became more than double that amount) was simply the total of Cohen's billables is absurd. Not only did he not "bill" Trump, we know exactly what the payment was for.
This would STILL HAVE NOT BEEN A CRIME. Trump would have to have known that he was committing a crime, and literally nobody knows about the ridiculous NY law that was used as a basis for this case. So it would be a practical impossibility for him to have known he was violating this law.
That's not the "impossible" issue discussed in the article.
You're making the much more mundane argument about whether knowledge of illegality is a requirement for a criminal conviction.
No, again, you're wrong.
This is not about "knowledge of illegality", it is that this specific statute REQUIRES intent, meaning knowledge that he was breaking this particular law. An obscure law that has never been used in this way before.
Again, impossible.
TDS is not just an emotional state and psychological disorder, it is clearly a legal strategy and get-out-of-Constitutional limits card. Is there any legal or moral limitation on tactics to defeat Trump, for dedicated Democrats?
Why didn't Bragg just charge Trump with the interfering with the election crime by having Michael Cohen pay off Stormy Daniels before the election? It sure seems convoluted to make up 34 counts of falsifying business records, especially when those records were not even created until after the election.
The whole reason the counts are felonies is because of the underlying crime. Well, just charge the underlying crime.
Cohen paid off Daniels before the election? Shhhh... Sullum almost had the chumps fooled into thinking this was confusing.
Turn off Rachel Maddow. Lol. Educate yourself. The former FEC Commissioner, you know the guy whose job was to handle campaign expenditures, has been very clear here. Or you can read up on the McDonnell USSC case. Or the John Edwards case.
Instead of blindly repeating the idiocy from MSNBC, maybe try education?
The only people confused here are you Act Blue morons.
Because that's federal jurisdiction. So he had to find a creative workaround.
If not for those book entries that no one outside the Trump Organization would have seen anyway, Hillary would have visited Wisconsin!
Turns out when The Cunt visited battleground states her numbers went down.
I have seen this absurd lie several times at Reason. Trump avoided defeat by hiding his scandals and payoffs which would have hurt him in 2015. He then disguised this conspiracy to hide the truth by falsifying records later on. The dirty work was hiding the truth, which was 2015; the illegal cover up was orchestrated in 2017, by hiding the payoffs. Trump got caught with his pants down. Why is Reason claiming he is being punished for something that took place after the election when the effective action was hiding the scandals before the election, then hiding the hiding.
"Trump avoided defeat by hiding his scandals and payoffs which would have hurt him in 2015."
Unproven and irrelevant. (1) People were aware of the NDA already, as well as Trump's past on infidelity (2) NDA is a legal document that enters into record. It cannot be "hidden" by its payment being misfiled as legal retainer. Nothing stops Daniels from saying that she signed an NDA to stop spreading unproven rumors she made.
Who told you an NDA is a public document? Jesse?
lol, you lazy assholes can’t even get the timing right.
My favorite part is that in the background of "Who blew up NS1 and 2?" and "COVID was a lab leak." and "It turns out the Biden admin and Deep State *were* leaning on Twitter, Google, FB, etc." their grand conspiracy theory exists to explain a nefarious plot to sleep with a woman for money *and* get elected. And this is after the Pee Dossier.
It's like the insanity of the GOP "Going after Bill Clinton for an affair" turned up to 11 and then tripled.
Trump banging numerous women was a completely unknown thing before 2015. The widespread assumption was that he was assiduously chaste before then. Never ONCE saw any tabloids about him having affairs.
It was known for decades. His life p,aged out in the tabloids since the early 70’s since the mid70’s in NY, and the mid 80’s internationally. It wa literally the subject of SNL sketches in the late 80’s.
No one was going to be swayed by that.
Eh... I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm on damikesc's part
In October 2016 Cohen made an in-kind contribution to the Trump campaign. That's the campaign finance violation. It was October 2016. he made the agreement with Stormy then. How does Sullum not see this? Or is he willfully trying to confuse you?
In 2017 Trump reimburses Cohen and hence, we have the Business Records fraud of 2017. It was a reimbursement for what amounted to a campaign loan from October 2016. This is confusing to Sullum?
We can quibble about whether this is felonious I suppose but it does not detract from the basic claim that hiding his affairs while the access hollywood tape broke may have had an impact on the election. We can also add to that the fake news AMI/Pecker produced while in collusion with Trump. That may have helped him get the nomination, but if is supporters knew Trump helped create fake news while simultaneously "telling it like it is" it may have tipped the scales to Clinton.
So quibble away about the merits of the case against Trump, but understand that if you support him you are supporting a guy that hides news from you and creates fake news. He lies to your face. But it is nice to know that when asked how he prays he answers buy saying evangelicals pray for him. Once again, he deomstrates that he is playing his supporters as chumps. Trump's chumps. Stay classy MAGA.
How does Sullum not see this? Or is he willfully trying to confuse you?
I find it hard to believe that he doesn't understand the flaws of his argument. I think he just feels a need to take a strong stand totally in Trump's favor or totally against him. It is part of the performative nature of political commentary. Analyzing something in detail and acknowledging the nuances and multiple ways of viewing a topic is just not as compelling reading as saying "That side is wrong about X!" If it doesn't stir up people's emotions enough, it doesn't get read by enough people to justify his pay.
Retards leading retards all with the same worthless MSNBC legal analysis.
"In October 2016 Cohen made an in-kind contribution to the Trump campaign"
He didn't. The former FEC set to testify in the trial have explained on X that the hush payment could not be campaign finance, which is typically understood as expense required for campaigning, running ads, paying volunteers, etc.
https://twitter.com/CommishSmith/status/1796795736438272303?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1796972861355081900%7Ctwgr%5Ea0ec1cf58f80d05ad7089cbaf1abe19e7556fdf2%7Ctwcon%5Es3_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitchy.com%2Fsamj%2F2024%2F06%2F02%2Fbrad-smith-thread-merchan-refused-to-allow-him-to-testify-n2396896
But let's say that that it was campaign contribution. How does misreporting payment amount to election interference? If Trump entered NDA payment as gas expense used during vacation, that changes the status of the NDA to "hidden"? Is the NDA itself election interference? That would uncharted territory that would retroactively criminalize a lot of candidates.
If I'm running a drug operation out of a fried chicken joint and register that front business legally on tax forms, I'm guilty of any number of crimes. But NDA is not a crime. It does not require Stormy Daniels to do anything illegal. There was NO underlying crime involved in this case. Election interference and campaign finance are separate charges that each required a unanimous verdict. That's not what happened here.
How would you describe someone criticizing of Josef Stalin's show trials? "Quibbling over merits" of a trial? Your position is "Well you can debate the merits of the trial but at the end of the day Trump is a bad guy so he deserves what he gets". I think the Pharisees would be nauseated by TDS.
Ironically Trump had something like 90 days to report the expenditure which would have put the reporting requirement past the election anyways.
These leftists don't care.
So youve repeated Maddow multiple times now. How about reading campaign law from a former FEC commissioner?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/daily-memo/3011093/brad-smith-what-i-would-have-told-trump-jury/
"In October 2016 Cohen made an in-kind contribution to the Trump campaign. That’s the campaign finance violation."
So Cohen violated the law. Not Trump. Trump paid a bill from his lawyer for legal work.
Now, Brad Smith of the FEC said he very much did not make an in-kind contribution and the FEC as a whole agreed as they brought no charges against the Trump campaign, but you do you.
"It was October 2016. he made the agreement with Stormy then."
Stormy never once met with Trump. Ergo, she made the agreement with Cohen. Still no direct tie to Trump, per her own testimony.
"In 2017 Trump reimburses Cohen and hence, we have the Business Records fraud of 2017. It was a reimbursement for what amounted to a campaign loan from October 2016. This is confusing to Sullum?"
The fact that it was not a campaign finance anything and the company paid a bill issued by their lawyer (overpaid him grossly, it seems), making it a legal fee, for one.
"We can quibble about whether this is felonious I suppose but it does not detract from the basic claim that hiding his affairs while the access hollywood tape broke may have had an impact on the election."
Campaigning PERIOD would have some impact on the election. Is campaigning now illegal?
"We can also add to that the fake news AMI/Pecker produced while in collusion with Trump. That may have helped him get the nomination, but if is supporters knew Trump helped create fake news while simultaneously “telling it like it is” it may have tipped the scales to Clinton."
Kinda funny how the ACTUAL campaign finance violation, where a campaign disguised paying informants for a false dossier as a legal expense, is not a concern for you.
"So quibble away about the merits of the case against Trump, but understand that if you support him you are supporting a guy that hides news from you and creates fake news."
That's different from every other politician in history...how? Our current President had over 50 intel officers lie about his son's laptop.
"But it is nice to know that when asked how he prays he answers buy saying evangelicals pray for him."
He is the candidate who does not openly loathe and disdain the religious.
We do not expect Jesus himself to come back and turn around the government. But we will not vote for somebody who hates us.
"“In October 2016 Cohen made an in-kind contribution to the Trump campaign. That’s the campaign finance violation.”
So Cohen violated the law. Not Trump. Trump paid a bill from his lawyer for legal work."
Tony Montana: "I ain't gonna kill you."
Also Tony Montana: "Manolo, shoot that piece of shit."
Damikesc: "So Manolo murdered Frank Lopez. Not Tony Montana. Tony Montana simply engaged in constitutionally protected free speech!"
We now live in an age where presidents attempting to hide damaging information from the public is considered "election interference" by moron rubes, lol
Now do Hunter's laptop!
The president at that time was named Donald J. Trump.
"In October 2016 Cohen made an in-kind contribution to the Trump campaign. That’s the campaign finance violation. It was October 2016. he made the agreement with Stormy then. How does Sullum not see this? Or is he willfully trying to confuse you?"
In October 2016, Cohen put up the money to expedite the closure of the deal with Daniels, which he later billed to trump and was ultimately reimbursed by the client. It wasn't decided until 2018 that the payment was "for the campaign", with that determination having been made by a prosecutor looking for any excuse to indict Cohen in order to coerce him to "flip" on trump. Since Cohen was re-paid, the "violation" was that he made a loan "to the campaign"; since trump's personal contributions aren't limited in any way his repayment of that "loan" was the actual contribution, and the only actual violation was in terms of bookkeeping/reporting on the part of the campaign (which was unaware that such reporting was necessary since at the time nobody involved considered it to have been a "campaign" expense). Had the "hush money" been paid out of campaign funds, the same prosecutors would have charged trump directly with having used campaign money to pay his "personal" legal expenses based on the notion that there were non-campaign related reasons for him to not want that story to be reported. The actual law is vague regarding what does or doesn't constitute "campaign" spending where there's an overlap between the election and the candidate's personal interests, and prosecutors love vague laws because they create the potential for indicting almost anyone for almost anything.
Possibly the most bizzare part of the Bragg prosecution is that they couldn't figure out a less contrived charge to indict trump on; by some estimates almost any adult in the USA could be indicted on at least three federal felonies at any given time if a prosecutor were to take an interest in making them a target.
Actually, there was an interview with the FEC chairman and he explained that an expense paid that would have been paid even if there were no campaign, is not a campaign expense. In 2011, Trump directed Cohen to get rid of the Stormy Daniels story. Pecker testified that he had been doing this for Trump and others for a long time - starting in the 90's for Trump.
There is plenty of evidence to support that this was the normal for Trump, thus the expense was properly paid out of personal funds and was not a campaign expense, or a campaign contribution
Actually, Trump sent his brother James back in time to change the election without telling James that changing the past would erase him from the timeline. That's why no one remembers Trump's brother James.
Genius Trump always playing 3D chess.
That would be, at least, 4D.
I see you've played 4D chess before!
hortly before the 2016 presidential election, Michael Cohen, then Trump's lawyer, paid porn star Stormy Daniels $130,000 to keep her from telling her story about sex with Trump at a Lake Tahoe hotel during a celebrity golf tournament in July 2006. When Trump paid Cohen back in 2017, prosecutors said, he caused the falsification of business records to cover up the arrangement with Daniels by misrepresenting the reimbursement as compensation for legal work. However you view that misrepresentation, it obviously had no impact on the outcome of the election. Yet Tribe and other people bizarrely insist that it did.
Sullum keeps saying that this is "bizarre" or "logically impossible" as if he can't understand what people are saying. The sequence of events as Sullum summarized it: October 2016 - Michael Cohen pays off Stormy Daniels. He had been in negotiations for weeks, when the deal was finalized and the check reached Daniel's lawyer on Nov. 1, if I remember correctly. After the election, Cohen is reimbursed from the Trump Organization business, with falsified records hiding the nature of the transaction. (Those records are the ones Trump was convicted of falsifying.)
Now, if Trump had never paid Cohen back, or had done so in some other way, then Trump commits no crime, it seems. But with the election being so close, in the alternate timeline where Stormy goes public with her story days after the Access Hollywood "grab them by the pussy" tape, it is absolutely conceivable that Trump loses instead of winning. Having sex with a porn star while his wife Melania was taking care of infant Barron would have hurt him significantly despite already having a womanizing reputation.
I figure that Sullum is just pushing this hard in order to provide some balance to all of his other columns that slam Trump for one thing or another. But, he isn't any better at defending Trump than the MAGA faithful.
The argument that any expenditure of money that affects an election constitutes a campaign contribution has been disposed of by the courts years ago. The basic principle was that if the expenditure would have been made had there been no election, then it wasn't a campaign contribution. Clearly, Trump would have wanted to prevent his wife from knowing about the affair and/or would not have wanted his business associates to know.These were both reasonable explanations for the expenditure.
Was calling it "legal expenses" wrong? Not if he were trying to avoid an expensive lawsuit against Daniels.
There was reasonable doubt about every aspect of the charges against Trump.
However, is there any legal reason for the judge to instruct the jury that they need not agree about what crime was committed? No explanation except that the judge was skirting around the law to get Trump convicted. Therefore, should the judge and the prosecutor be indicted for "Conspiring to deprive Donald Trump of his Civil Rights"? A better case can be made for that, than for Trump's violation of election campaign laws.
However, is there any legal reason for the judge to instruct the jury that they need not agree about what crime was committed?
No, but that isn't what the judge said. The crime being charged was falsifying business records in furtherance of another crime. The instruction was that they need not agree on exactly what that other crime was. The analogy I have seen lawyers use in discussing this issue is that a jury doesn't have to agree whether a person was beaten to death with a baseball bat, a crowbar, or a rock to convict someone of murder.
"The analogy I have seen lawyers use in discussing this issue is that a jury doesn’t have to agree whether a person was beaten to death with a baseball bat, a crowbar, or a rock to convict someone of murder."
The assumption was that a murder had, in fact, been committed which was easily established by the dead body with its skull crushed. In Trump's case there was no evidence that there was any crime to be covered up. Not a mention of these "crimes" was in the indictment from the grand jury because if a crime were mentioned, the prosecutor would have to prove that there actually was a crime. No crime was proven, so the jury was given carte blanche to convict Trump of concealing one of three crimes for which there was no evidence.
The correct rule of prosecution is "find the crime, then find the man". Bragg's rule was "choose the man, then wave your hands wildly pretending to find a crime, choose a judge who hates the man, a jury who hates the man and then convict the man of concealing a crime even if even if he was never told what the crime was".
The underlying concept was actually "Trump is a scumbag so justice is not applicable to him".
Not a mention of these “crimes” was in the indictment from the grand jury because if a crime were mentioned, the prosecutor would have to prove that there actually was a crime. No crime was proven, so the jury was given carte blanche to convict Trump of concealing one of three crimes for which there was no evidence.
I have seen this addressed in multiple places, but this one sums it up well along with other arguments I see from Sullum and in the comments.
New York law does not require this level of specificity in the charging document. New York case law requires that the indictment allege only a general intent to conceal a crime, not an intent to conceal a specific crime.
Nonetheless, prosecutors provided this specificity in a prosecution filing in November 2023, five months before his trial began. In that filing, prosecutors disclosed that the crimes they alleged Trump intended to conceal were violating state and federal campaign finance laws and violating state tax laws. The court rejected an additional basis offered by the prosecution, falsifying business records outside the Trump organization.
Trump's defense had plenty of notice on what alleged crimes they would have to defend against that the falsified business records were supposed to be covering up. And the jurors were not given "carte blanche" to convict Trump when there was no evidence of those other crimes. They didn't have to agree on which alleged crime he was trying to cover up. But each had to think that the evidence was sufficient that there was a crime to cover up. I'd ask you to point to where in the jury instructions that this statement I just made is contradicted.
Bragg’s rule was “choose the man, then wave your hands wildly pretending to find a crime, choose a judge who hates the man, a jury who hates the man and then convict the man of concealing a crime even if even if he was never told what the crime was”.
That is entirely your opinion of what happened. Speaking of a lack of evidence, you have provided none that any of that is accurate. a) Cohen had outlined the whole thing when he plead guilty in 2018, so no one went fishing to find these charges. It was all in the open long before Bragg ran for Manhattan DA. b) There is no evidence that the judge "hates" Trump. If there had been, Trump's lawyers should have moved for his removal and won that motion. I know they moved for a change in venue, but on other grounds. If there is such evidence now, then that will be something that they can use in the appeal and by pointing to the errors of law that the judge made that went against Trump. c) Any potential jurors with evidence that they hated Trump could have been dismissed before being seated on the jury by Trump's lawyers. There is no limit to how many jurors they can get dismissed for cause like that. They are only limited to how many jurors they can have dismissed without giving a reason.
The underlying concept was actually “Trump is a scumbag so justice is not applicable to him”.
I am of the opinion that the first part of that concept is true, but no one around here is showing any evidence that Trump has been denied justice. All of the campaign donations actually going to his legal defenses have bought the best lawyers that billionaire Trump will accept and that are willing to have Trump as a client. Trump has many orders of magnitude more opportunity to challenge the charges against him than the average criminal defendant, and even the average white-collar criminal defendant.
The problem with that analogy is that murder is inherently criminal regardless of how it's done. Paying a mistress out of your own pocket is not.
A better analogy would be charging a plaintiff with “conspiracy”, but the jury gets to pick and choose is it conspiracy to murder, theft, tax evasion or remove a tag from a mattress??
Paying a mistress out of your own pocket is not.
Trump didn't pay Stormy out of his own pocket. That is problem one with your reply. The second is that it wasn't the payment that was the crime that Trump was convicted for. It was falsifying business records to hide paying Cohen back for Cohen paying Stormy. (By the way, falsifying business records is always illegal. It just would have been a misdemeanor if not done to cover for another crime.) The question of whether that was intended to cover up an illegal campaign contribution or illegal tax filings is where the jury didn't have to agree on which was true, just that it covered up something illegal.
A better analogy would be charging a plaintiff with “conspiracy”, but the jury gets to pick and choose is it conspiracy to murder, theft, tax evasion or remove a tag from a mattress??
I don't think that's how conspiracy charges work. IANAL, but my understanding is that conspiracy charges center on whether a person was part of a conspiracy to commit a crime or crimes. The crime(s) still has(have) to be specified and proven, it is just that the person charged with conspiracy doesn't have to have specific knowledge of or intention to commit specific criminal acts. I.e., someone is part of a mob family. They benefit from its actions, making some decisions on illegal activity, taking in money, and so on. But they didn't have any direct involvement in or knowledge of some rival that the family has whacked. They are still guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. Something like that, anyway.
"Trump didn’t pay Stormy out of his own pocket. That is problem one with your reply. The second is that it wasn’t the payment that was the crime that Trump was convicted for. It was falsifying business records to hide paying Cohen back for Cohen paying Stormy. (By the way, falsifying business records is always illegal. It just would have been a misdemeanor if not done to cover for another crime.) The question of whether that was intended to cover up an illegal campaign contribution or illegal tax filings is where the jury didn’t have to agree on which was true, just that it covered up something illegal."
You can't have it both ways. Either trump didn't pay Daniels, or he falsified records to hide the fact that he had paid Daniels. If trump didn't pay Daniels himself, then how was there any "falsification to conceal that payment"?
Since he owns the company, paying Cohen out of company assets isn't materially different than "paying out of his own pocket". The fact that Cohen loaned his client the money; a strong argument could be made that the purpose of that loan was simply to expedite closure of the deal rather than having to wait for trump to "free up" the cash to make the payment himself. Just because someone has $Billions in assets doesn't mean that they can simply come up with huge amounts of cash on short or zero notice, and given the nature of Cohen's business with trump, odds are he might have had some or all of the $130k on hand from a "retainer" payment from trump, or else has access to lines of credit for situations where fast liquidity is needed. As far as trump is concerned, re-paying Cohen for having fronted the payment isn't really any different that someone paying off a purchase made on a credit card; ultimately he did make the payment, even if it wasn't a direct hand-to-hand cash transaction.
Why would Stormy take her story public, when she already received payment for NDA? If Trump doesn't pay Cohen back, then the feud would be between Cohen and Trump. Daniels was bound by NDA regardless. It's not like Cohen can tell her "OK donald won't repay me, now give me the money back"
NDA is a legal document reviewed by attorneys of both sides. It cannot be "hidden" because payment was reported as legal retainer. It might fool the IRS insofar as tax obligations is concerned, but Trump actually ended up paying more taxes.
The NDA itself only "hid" unproven rumor that wasn't a criminal activity. If your neighbor accuses you of sleeping with her, you can either sue her to kingdom come or buy her silence with NDA. Neither is illegal. You would do this even if you weren't a candidate in an election. But Bragg says if you are, both of those are campaign expense and misreporting them is nexus to election interference.
It takes no mental effort to see nonsense for what it is. It will require no small mount of self fooling and intellectual dishonesty to do so.
I like how Stormy had to work a bizarre contract for her biography et al to prevent the decision against her (she does owe Trump a lot of money) being used to give the pay to the person who it is actually owed to.
Really hope Trump ends up wrecking her life. She deserves it.
Right! How dare she have sex with a married billionaire and not keep quiet about it!
When she took money to specifically do so, it is more like "How dare she violate a contract and then whine about it?"
Her mouth is only the third largest open orifice on her body.
When she took money to specifically do so, it is more like “How dare she violate a contract and then whine about it?”
If you don't like her because she violated a contract, then how do you feel about someone that committed a crime to hide the existence of that contract?
Did she actually talk about it publicly? I remember Mike Avenatti being on screen on CNN almost more than Don Lemon or Chris Cuomo at the time, when arguably the "story" was the NDA and not the "afffair", but I didn't really pay much attention to any of it. I can't remember whether or not any of the "news" coverage of the story actually had her directly speaking to any of the alleged "journalists" involved.
Goddamn son.
Just fucking sad at this point.
Yes. It is sad that no one addressed the point I was making and insisted on rehashing their own issues with the trial.
Sad, but predictable. Some of them really don't understand what you've written. Others are just deflecting so they don't have to address it.
You're missing a key component of the crime (and the NY law) - and this is being as charitable as possible to your interpretation of events - Trump would have to have known that he was committing a crime by doing this. This is an impossibility owing to the obscurity of this law.
This is not the "impossibility" discussed in the article. You know that, right?
It's not that they "should" know better. They DO know better. They don't care. They have a higher principle than logic and reason -- GET ORANGE MAN.
It’s by no means logically impossible. The affair was in 2006. Trump could have promised to pay her in (say) 2016 when he became a candidate but not gotten around to actually doing so until 2017 after he became President.
You’d of course need evidence of some sort of promise or oral agreement or something made before the 2016 election to prove the theory, and it would be ill-advised for a legal scholar to assert the truth of such a theory without that evidence. But it’s certainly not a logically impossible fact pattern.
I think I can wank this case to surmount the time travel problem: Trump would not have undertaken this course of action in 2016 had he expected to enter the payments into his records accurately in 2017, in case those records somehow came to public light.
Have you guys really fallen to this level? Intentionally pretending to misunderstand that coverups for involvement or knowledge of a crime (Michael Cohen's) often happen after the fact?
Cohen made an illegal campaign contribution of $130,000 in order to try to influence the election. (and was convicted of such).
TFG then tried to stiff him for the repayment, until he started complaining to other parties, and THEN decided to reimburse him (in installments) to shut him up - grossed up for taxes, of course - because you have to do that when you lie falsely label the payments for "legal services rendered" instead of reimbursement for a felony campaign finance violation.
As always, it was the *coverup* that got him, and weirdly, those always seem to come *after the fact* for some reason.
It's not that complicated, and you are not that stupid. So much for FreeMinds, and free markets. You toe the line, just like everyone you complain about.
That's an interesting theory. So an NDA for a politician running for office is illegal now. That... makes for a lot of felonious politicians.
And what is this blather about grossing payments up for taxes?
They really aren’t sending their best.
More MSNBC talking points.
That's all you got? Lol.
Old Diatribe is at it again. Another senile Dem
Self-righteous puritan Democrats making 34-felonies on moral grounds.
but, but, but .... It's (D)ifferent this time! /s
The hypocrisy just doesn't get much richer.
Self-Projection. It's all the leftards know how to do.
You might expect that a historian would pay attention to chronological consistency.
Facts don’t matter. The only thing that matters is Narrative. If the Narrative is challenged, deny the Facts. Make up new Facts.
Boys can be girls.
Racism is still a thing.
The point of homo isn’t pedo.
The people who had their babies put in ovens are the oppressors.
Morbid obesity is beautiful.
People cared about the WNBA before Caitlin Clark.
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
"many smart and ostensibly well-informed observers."
Does ANYBODY really view Tribe as such?
Tribe is not just a last name there, if ya catch my drift.
Tribe is a lefty hack. Always has been. Perhaps that's why Sullum focused on him?
I do believe that this conviction will be overturned… but not for the reason below.
“Since those 34 felonies involved falsified business records that were produced in 2017, Tribe’s claim is logically impossible.”
I’m neither a Tribe nor Trump fan. But while I do believe Trump was wronged, and the legal process was subverted, the fact that the documents were dated after the election is immaterial, and not logically impossible.
The service done for Trump occurred before the election. He simply did not pay for it until after the election. It’s like charging your credit card in one month, and paying for it the following month. Even if I paid for the merchandise in the second month, I bought it the month before.
No… this line of argument falls flat on its face. There are so many other arguments to be made that are far more logical and persuasive than a delay in documenting a hush payment and NDA.
Failure to specify the crime, lack of due process, legality of an NDA, alternative (reasonable, non-political) reasons for paying for the silence of a porn star, the allowance of testimony that is extremely prejudicial, unconstitutional suppression of speech by a defendant charged with a crime, failure of the jury to specify that they were 100% in agreement on the specific crimes that Trump was accused of committing, etc. There is plenty to chose from and all of them are better than this timing of payments issue.
If this isn’t overturned for any of the dozens of blatant reasons to do so, then it’s time for a revolution. Because it will prove that the rule of law no longer exists in the US.
True, but apparently the only such reason the MAGAtariat is capable of understanding involves the impossibility of time travel.
(Good thing it didn't rely on the "impossibility" of the Earth being flat, the Moon landings having been faked, 9/11 was an inside job, the 2020 election having being stolen, the Democrats having harvested adrenochrome in the basement of a pizza restaurant, etc....)
Don’t take the bait about “making illegal campaign contributions”. That wasn’t even charged. The charge was falsifying a business record (state law) to cover up a crime (federal law) of corrupting an election through “unlawful means” (state law). But the unlawful means were never identified, even in the instructions to the jury.
Trump was literally charged with a mystery crime. We actually do not know to this day exactly what the jury in fact convicted him of.
Trump wasn't charged with the crime/s he falsified records to conceal, but there are several. Including NY 17-152.
You should quit believing idiot rightwing propaganda.
You need to stop commenting. You have zero understanding of how this case worked. And you embarrass yourself by pretending.
And you should quit puking up Marxist democrat propaganda.
You do not know what the jury found him guilty of. No one does. But the misdemeanor that started the whole ugly mess was indeed the business record charge.
Trump wasn't "found guilty of" the underlying unlawful act. But we do know what Trump was found guilty of: the 34 felonies with which he had been charged.
Nobody was ever charged with any of the crimes he was accused of "conspiring to conceal", nor was any significant evidence provided in the trial that just ended that any of those crimes actually happened.
The judge even prohibited the defense from calling a witness to explain that one of the supposed crimes being covered up wasn't actually illegal in any conceivable way, and the idea that paying "hush money" is illegal in and of itself is laughable on its face.
If the public has some inherent "right" to hear from Stormy Daniels about how a man who'd ended two marriages in part due to his own infidelity had also cheated on at least one occasion on his current wife, then what about the right of the public to know in 2016 that the Steele Dossier was fabricated (something that people on the HRC campaign payroll knew for a fact because they'd fabricated it and fed it to Steele's "source")? Or in 2020 was there a right to know that the laptop belonging to Hunter Biden and containing potentially incriminating references to Joe Biden (aka "the big guy") having cashed in on Hunter's offshore influence-peddling schemes wasn't "Russian Misinformation" as the FBI and DHS led most of the media to believe?
Aren't the people who insist that there was a "public right to know" about Daniels the same ones who in 2016 insisted that people should ignore the wikileaks release of Sid Blumenthal's emails regarding the DNC plot to "rig" the 2016 primary, not because they weren't genuine or because the conspiracies they descried hadn't happened but because the emails had been obtained through a hack of Blumenthal's gmail account after he provided his password to a spearphishing scam? Interesting that the absolute "right to know" on the part of the public is somehow conditional depending on the party who would prefer that the truth not see the light of day.
Stupid headline. The crime began in '16. More criminal actions in support of the conspiracy continued into '17.
Quick trying to make the MAGAts happy. They aren't going to be regardless of how much you debase yourself.
He does have a ways to go before he reaches, "I just love YOU!"
The thing with that is that payment of the "hush money" isn't a crime. Bill Clinton paid off multiple women whose stories might have been far more detrimental to his campaign than a consensual one-night-stand by a man who had publicly cheated on two previous wives and spent years making regular appearances on Howard Stern to brag about his latest famous sexual partners.
What Cohen ultimately plead guilty to was a minor infraction regarding the bookkeeping/reporting of a "loan" he made to the campaign, and even that was predicated on the prosecutors involved choosing to count it as a "campaign expense" in order to jam him up for paying it with non-campaign funds. If he'd paid the NDA with campaign funds, the same prosecutors (whose endgame was to get Cohen to "flip" on trump one way or another) would have charged him with illegal use of campaign money to pay a "personal" legal expense owed by the candidate. They leveraged a vaguely worded law to create a "crime" where no criminal intent had actually been present.
Even if we assume that there was some kind of crime that was covered up by the "falsification" of these records. What was the proof by the Prosecution that trump was the culpable party for the "false" invoices sent from Cohen to trump? Seems like those 11 felonies should have been laid on the "star witness" in the case rather than the defendant.
It seems odd that the defense never attempted to claim that marking the payments of those invoices to match the wording of the invoice would be a fairly standard practice for almost anyone, and if the payments were made from the trump organization, were they actually written out by trump, or filled out by some accountant somewhere and then signed by the boss (or even signed by some "Accounts Payable" Manager with signature authority on the corporate accounts.