Another Judge Says Illegal Immigrants Have Second Amendment Rights
Some supposed defenders of the right to bear arms react with alarm.

In a decision earlier this month in U.S. v. Carbajal-Flores from the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois, Eastern Division, Judge Sharon Johnson Coleman concluded that you can't always and under every circumstance prohibit people in the country illegally from legally possessing weapons.
The factual background of the prosecution of Heriberto Carbajal-Flores, as explained in Judge Coleman's decision: "On June 1, 2020, Carbajal-Flores possessed a handgun in the Little Village neighborhood of Chicago, Illinois. Carbajal-Flores contends that he received and used the handgun for self-protection and protection of property. Because of Carbajal-Flores' citizenship status, he was charged with violating of 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(5), which prohibits any noncitizen who is not legally authorized to be in the United States from 'possess[ing] in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.'"
Judge Coleman granted a motion to dismiss the charges against Carbajal-Flores, by declaring that such a blanket prohibition against weapons possession for a category of people can't withstand scrutiny under current Second Amendment doctrine.
Carbajal-Flores has been on pre-trial release and "has consistently adhered to and fulfilled all the stipulated conditions of his release," the decision explains. "Pretrial Services has conducted numerous employment visits at various sites, and Carbajal-Flores consistently provides the necessary documentation to verify his income when requested. A criminal record check conducted through the National Crime Information Center reflects no new arrests or outstanding warrants."
So he was no demonstrated threat to the persons or property of Americans, despite his status crime of possessing a weapon when a law said he could not.
Judge Coleman tried in her decision to rethink earlier motions to dismiss on Carbajal-Flores' part that had been denied in the context of both the Supreme Court's 2022 New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen decision which suggested courts needed to consider historical analogy arguments from the Founding times to decide whether current restrictions on the rights of weapon possession can exist under the Second Amendment, and the 7th Circuit's 2023 Atkinson v. Garland decision which laid out a list of questions that tried to define how one might apply Bruen doctrine to laws against felon possession, which Judge Coleman thinks can be analogous to those against legally unauthorized noncitizen possession.
Judge Coleman decided, after considering that in the 19th century former British loyalists were on the basis of specific facts allowed to legally possess arms that others were not, that "Carbajal-Flores' criminal record, containing no improper use of a weapon, as well as the non-violent circumstances of his arrest do not support a finding that he poses a risk to public safety such that he cannot be trusted to use a weapon responsibly and should be deprived of his Second Amendment right to bear arms in self-defense. Thus, this Court finds that, as applied to Carbajal-Flores, Section 922(g)(5) is unconstitutional."
She is not, then, saying that the law against undocumented noncitizens possessing guns is always and everywhere unconstitutional, but that its constitutionality is affected by the specific facts of specific defendants.
Judge Coleman's decision that the Second Amendment applies to noncitizens such as Carbajal-Flores at least sometimes was not a wild innovation. Back in 2015, in a case out of the 7th Circuit like the Atkinson case that Judge Coleman discusses, Judge Diane Wood also decided in U.S. v. Meza-Rodriguez that in a "post-Heller world, where it is now clear that the Second Amendment right to bear arms is no second-class entitlement, we see no principled way to carve out the Second Amendment and say that the unauthorized (or maybe all noncitizens) are excluded. No language in the Amendment supports such a conclusion, nor, as we have said, does a broader consideration of the Bill of Rights."
Despite declaring that such noncitizens ought not be completely outside the protection of the Second Amendment, Judge Wood in that case decided the noncitizen defendant could be prosecuted anyway. After the usual throat-clearing about how no right is absolute, Judge Wood concluded that "Congress's interest in prohibiting persons who are difficult to track and who have an interest in eluding law enforcement is strong enough to support" prosecuting Meza-Rodriguez anyway. Many other courts did not and do not agree with what Wood and Coleman concluded about unauthorized noncitizens and the Second Amendment, so it's a question ripe for eventual Supreme Court consideration. Whether the "people" to whom various constitutional rights apply must always be legal citizens has been denied in various other cases involving various other constitutional rights, such as the Fourth Amendment.
In a curious case of letting culture wars or tribal considerations overwhelm legal thinking, gun law scholar and generally a tenacious defender of a hardcore interpretation of the Second Amendment John Lott is suspicious that this is just "an Obama judge acting in a very calculated way to try to create problems for interpreting the Second Amendment."
He's not alone; social networks are full of right-wing supposed Second Amendment partisans angry that this Barack Obama–appointed judge has gone too far, in the service of some scheme to either have the U.S. conquered by gun-wielding immigrant Biden shock troops or to make the Second Amendment seem absurd by overapplying it.
As always, this decision, no matter how far it goes or if other courts respect it, is not about the right to commit actual crimes against other people or their property with the weapon; it's merely about the right to possess them, the very right the Second Amendment was obviously designed to protect from government interference.
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Shoot ‘em if you got ‘em!
Everyone has the natural right to bear arms. This one is obvious.
OK, I'll just go packing heat in Mexico or Britain and see how that works out.
My Momma told me... Everyone ELSE is jumping off of The Bridges of Madness Cunty... Are YE gonna jump off of them ALSO? Lowest cum-on de-dumb-inator will get us ALL jumping off of the Bridges of Madness Cunty!!!
("Twatever" is OK, they say, ass long ass shit resonates and reson-urbates with "The Right Tribe"!!! Resonurbate ON, Dudes!!! Let's all GET OFF!!!)
No one said a human* had a natural right to win the gun fight.
*Only exception, Chuck Norris.
Bring a lot of ammo.
Mexico actually has a right to arms in its Constitution.
Which only restrains the states.
The Soviet constitution had tons of rights on paper, so what?
That’s cool Charlie, can I bring a gun to Mexico when I vote in their elections?
Most countries do a shitty job of protecting natural rights. Particularly when it comes to self defense.
Most countries do a great job violating natural rights.
I'm not saying your enemies wont try to stop you, but it is your natural right. They are violating your right.
Silly argument. The fact that you have a natural right does not mean that illiberal jurisdictions will recognize it.
People decrying American Exceptionalism ignore the fact that our system is in fact exceptional. Not perfect but a far sight better than any other tried so far.
I'll note that one of our major gun control laws SPECIFICALLY lists illegal aliens as not permitted to own firearms.
Looks like it might be time to examine ALL gun control legislation from all of our history and cancel ALL of them.
I'm betting the Left won't use this to decry gun violence the way they have the "assault weapons ban" that did jack shit.
Obvious if everyone in Chicago gets the same treatment.
My gut says this ruling will not apply to citizens who "received and used the handgun for self-protection and protection of property".
I hope this is a blanket ruling and not just a carve out for illegals.
My gut says this ruling will not apply to citizens who “received and used the handgun for self-protection and protection of property”.
I hope this is a blanket ruling and not just a carve out for illegals.
The circumstantial evidence was the basis for her reasoning!
It's astounding the degree to which Reason et al. don't understand this. Hint: Heriberto certainly didn't pass a fucking NICS background check.
This has been said since day 1 (circa 2008ish) about the immigration debate: if we were equally lowering the legal barriers for immigrants and natives alike, it would be a generally acceptable thing, but we're not, we're specifically favoring certain types of people in certain types of situations and, frequently, the very certain types of people who necessitated the broader rules to begin with.
Election interference is only wrong when performed by Russians and/or in favor of Republicans. If Ukraine helped get a Democratic President elected using Facebook memes, that's a good thing. Free Speech.
It is both simple and complicated to me. The simple answer is that every action of a person who is in this country illegally is also illegal. Regardless of his natural right to self-defense, once his immigration status was known to authorities he should be deported. It is fucking stupid to play this game where someone can defy the law and then get privileges beyond that of citizens in good standing.
On a practical level, I see nothing good coming from telling illegal invaders that they have the right to arm themselves against citizens. That is the path to actual armed invasion and the uprising of a foreign faction against the nation.
The argument is that the Second Amendment makes all gun possession legal. Strictly speaking this would even apply to mass murderers.
Oh and being in the US illegally isn't even a crime.
It is a misdemeanor for the first offense and a felony for repeated offenses.
But most of the recent cases now aren't even about illegal immigration, they are migrants seeking asylum legally.
Hey Jeffy, Hunter didn’t show up for a congressional hearing today. He should go to jail, right?
Hunter is just a child!
re: “It is a misdemeanor for the…”
I’m pretty sure that is untrue. Per Arizona v US, merely being in the US without documentation is a civil violation, not a criminal matter at all. Entering the US illegally is a crime but, for example, overstaying your visa not.
Note that if merely being in the US without documentation was a crime (at either misdemeanor or felony level), it would trigger all the criminal due process protections and make deportation a lot harder. Immigration hawks generally want being in the US to remain a civil rather than a criminal matter.
Qualifier: What I wrote above is true about federal law. Texas and a couple other states are trying to make merely being the in US a state crime but the constitutionality of that attempt is still being tested.
someone can defy the law and then get privileges beyond that of citizens in good standing.
saying the quiet part out loud: liberty is only a privilege for citizens, not a birthright of every person
If someone is in our country illegally, the only thing they are entitled to is deportation.
Crazy talk!
"I hope this is a blanket ruling and not just a carve out for illegals."
Under Biden, illegals have rights that supercede the rights of citizens.
word. why should a Mexican not be permitted his standoff just because he stands in Texas?
Because racism.
Wait, so illegals *are* people? With rights? Are you serious?
Poor sarc.
They have the right to be deported without being otherwise harmed.
without being otherwise harmed.
Why not? Maybe the cops should rough 'em up a little bit. You know, to teach those vermin a lesson. Or maybe the cops should just execute them all. Why even bother with deportation? They're ILLEGAL *INVADERS*, right?
Or, maybe the reason why you added this caveat is because you DO recognize that even those filthy horrible illegals do have some natural rights that the state is duty bound to protect, even if they are filthy horrible illegals.
So, what are the natural rights that the illegal filth vermin have?
Try sneaking into Mexico sometime, cumstain.
Hey Jeffy, Hunter didn’t show up for a congressional hearing today. He should go to jail, right?
In before the idiot says it’s all about dick picks.
He’s not going to answer because yesterday he posted some bullshit about Navarro being arrested for not showing up for the 1/6 committee. He’s too stupid to realize that Hunter was going to do the exact same thing the next day.
And the President was aware of him doing so and did nothing to stop it.
He was an accomplice, bare minimum
Obvious troll is obvious. 0/10
It's kinda refreshing to see that you know you're a troll, Jeff.
illegals do have some natural rights that the state is duty bound to protect
We treat them within some bounds of decency because we are a decent people and choose to do so. We are not “duty bound” to do so. Outlaws do and should have very limited rights. Using force to stop them when they attempt to enter would be normal and acceptable.
So, what are the natural rights that the illegal filth vermin have?
It's up to the governments of their own countries to decide which of their natural rights to respect. Our government's responsibility is to return them there.
Your position is contradictory. You concede that the illegal filth vermin have natural rights yet you don't think the government should respect them? Because they are illegal? The whole point of natural rights is that they are inherent. They do not depend on which country one happens to be in. A person has them whether that person is a Real Murican Right-Wing Patriot Citizen, or an illegal filth vermin invader. It is just as unjust for the government violate the natural rights of the illegals as it is to violate the natural rights of Real Muricans.
If you think that natural rights depend on which country one is in, then those are not natural rights.
If you think that the only reason the illegals aren't tortured or summarily executed instead of deported, is because "we are decent people", then you are conceding that you don't think they have natural rights, only privileges.
You have to give up on the idea of natural rights if you want to be consistent.
No, we do not have to give up on the idea of rights in order to enforce the law. No, no intelligent person wants the government to respect all the rights of criminals. Outlaws have chosen to forfeit respect for most of their rights. That's why it's acceptable to arrest, imprison, fine, and deport them, but it's not OK to treat citizens who are not engaging in any aggression that way. Your obliviousness to very basic concepts of rights and government is comical.
You are really struggling, Chemjeff selectively nuanced defeatist.
Maybe take a break?
Deport them. They are entitled to keep and bear in their own countries.
Native Americans who DARE to bear bows and arrows... ESPECIALLY those who posses and-or imbibe prohibited substances... WHERE shall "we" deport them to?
Inquiring minds want to KNOW, dammit!!!
They are entitled to keep and bear in their own countries.
Said since before Doherty was reporting for this magazine.
Open Borders means I can carry in Mexico as freely as they can get a job here. I can pick up a job under the table as easily as they can. If you aren't truly reciprocating the rules, you're still just cherrypicking your own preferred class.
Saying "Hurp! Republicans are worried armed immigrants are going to take over the country. Durp!" is an obvious bullshit, enmity counteraccusation to cover one's own goosestepping favoritism.
He's not alone; social networks are full of right-wing supposed Second Amendment partisans angry that this Barack Obama–appointed judge has gone too far, in the service of some scheme to either have the U.S. conquered by gun-wielding immigrant Biden shock troops or to make the Second Amendment seem absurd by overapplying it.
Go fuck yourself Doherty. The problem, you fucking shitbag, is that the law is entirely capricious. It's the same immigration bullshit applied to the 2A. I have a fucking FOID. I have to present it to even buy weapons or handle locked ammo in the store. Nobody should have to, but there are countless other people in prison because they do.
The fucking issue is that at any time in the last 30+ yrs. any Goddamned judge could've made this decision for virtually anybody and specifically overturned it for everybody, but they didn't and Coleman's specific argument is that she isn't doing it either. It's not freedom, it's not equality before the law, it's straight up 'FYTW' and you fucking know it.
This magazine isn't well-reasoned (drink) or libertarian, it's just a fucking sack of shit that thinks charging people to read it will boost the digital distribution the way we can only assume the print edition has moved like hotcakes.
That's about it. I'd be glad if this ruling holds and throws out FOID and other laws. But this judge has probably had other prohibited persons come through her court since she started as a judge; why didn't they get the same treatment?
It smells.
This take has me so pissed off I can't type straight. "buy weapons or handle locked ammo in the store." -> "buy ammo or handle locked weapons in the store."
If I go to Indiana or Wisconsin or any other state and buy something, technically, they have to check my FOID and either observe IL's waiting period, ship it to an IL FFL who will enforce it for them, or refuse to sell it to me. I guaran-fucking-tee you Coleman's not trying to roll things in IL back to before the Brady Bill.
Casually Mad says...
Udders are enslaved!!!! Hair-for, until ALL udders are FREED, ye must ALL be MY slaves!!! 'Cause twat I say... Goes!!!
(This is a translation for all of ye who do SNOT speak "Casually Mad"!!! My best attempt... Even my fave AI, "Perplexity", couldn't help me much!)
I can't wait until republicans like you stop reading this website. I check the comments periodically and you don't know the meaning of the words you are saying. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, LEAVE. It's republicans own advice to everyone they disagree with. Bye bye.
Awww, did mad.casual hurt your poor little feelings? Cry more, you spineless pussy.
As opposed to spiny pussy? I'm thinking Klingon.
It sounds stupid enough to be sarc.
You aren’t fooling anyone Rev. Nobody, not even you by your own “I check the comments periodically” assertion comes here for your opinion.
Your idiocy is a pestilence, a plague that chases away more moderate individuals, willing to reciprocate respect for rights openly with all people and till fertile intellectual soil in the sun, and leaves only unprincipled, hard-scrabble, quasi-cannibal individuals scurrying for sustenance between patches of barren soil. The magazine clearly isn’t thriving because of the open borders policy they’ve been espousing and it’s clear their now-sole benefactor’s woke ideology isn’t paying the PR dividends that the older, more moderate stance used to.
Yeah this. If I really thought this ruling would result in a bunch of other gun laws getting repealed I’d be fine with it, but we all know it’s not.
I came to say pretty much that. Last I checked Chicago is in the state of Illinois and if you walk into a gun store around here you better have a FOID in your pocket which means you've already passed a background check by the state cops before you even get to the federal shit. The article doesn't explain how this guy "received" the gun but he didn't acquire it legally. This is the same state where millions of people who legally bought "assault" rifles have been ordered to surrender them to the state. I don't have a problem with this guy having a gun but his arrest isn't anywhere near the denial of 2A rights every citizen of Illinois lives with every day.
This is the same state where millions of people who legally bought “assault” rifles have been ordered to surrender them to the state.
Not to controvert you but just to clarify the absolute depths of Doherty's retardation:
1. Not "assault rifles", any device that constitutes the ability to convert a legal weapon to an illegal weapon.
2. Not surrender but, *register*.
Doherty cheers that one judge let one illegal immigrant off while ignoring that it expanded its ability to arrest people for the "crime" of having an unregistered 16-round magazine for their handgun. A crime that, if they respected the law in the first place wouldn't have given rise to the need for a judge to let off one immigrant.
I stand corrected. But it doesn't look like registration is working out. Most of the state's sheriffs have refused to cooperate and only a tiny percentage of the population has registered. Pritzker says no problem he'll send out the state cops to enforce it. To date I haven't heard of any attempt to do so. We are witnessing civil disobedience on a massive scale. Pretty cool actually.
Yeah, ISP enforcement was pretty much assumed and/or going to happen before the bill even passed.
Pretty cool actually.
Again, not to refute anyone as the civil disobedience is great but, unlike with Bud Light or whomever who goes away when profits dry up, it doesn't mean dick if the enforcement gets memory-holed and we re-elect Pritzker or other cookie cutter leftist. As I mention in another thread, the cultural damage/social engineering will have been done. Kids who used to grow up with guns on sale at Wal-Mart will or their local Mom and Pop who makes the bulk of their money selling pmags and rail accessories will now regard firearms only as bolt actions that you pick up at Cabelas or some other dedicated gun store out in the boonies and think "You need a license to buy a gun the way you need a license to buy a car." is just how things work.
Here's Othias and Matt (Fudd Busters) discussing the way this method is causing our 2A rights to be simply "lost to history".
Othias: We are victims of enforcement not even of the law and people forget that. [sic] They go “Oh, that’s illegal.” And you go “It isn’t even illegal. It’s just enforced. That’s it. It’s just enforced without regard for the law or not." That’s insanity.
Will a native-born citizen be excused of the same thing? Why is the *immigration* question specifically exempting when I, as a law-abiding citizen, can be DQ’ed for any of the others up to and including misspelling my name or mis-dating a page (which I have failed for doing).
Yup got it. Because you and your team doesn't have the full unlimited liberty that you think you are entitled to, no one else that is beneath you should have it either.
Yay Anarchotyranny!
Hey Jeffy, Hunter didn’t show up for a congressional hearing today. He should go to jail, right?
Jeffy: “for dick picks?”
Fuck off troll.
"Yup got it. Because you and your team doesn’t have the full unlimited liberty that you think you are entitled to, no one else that is beneath you should have it either."
Chemjeff comes out in favor of special rights for illegals.
damikesc comes out in favor of a hierarchy for liberty.
Real Murican Patriot Citizens are entitled to the full blessings of liberty, because they are on the top of the hierarchy.
Everyone else below are less and less entitled to liberty, because they don't deserve it. Because they aren't Real Murican Patriot Citizens.
Illegals are at the very bottom of the hierarchy. They don't deserve shit. If the government treats them "nice" (meaning: refraining from torture or execution), it is only because the government is being magnanimous, not because they are entitled to any liberty whatsoever.
people electing judges is literally as wrong as the state killing people.
More. A judge can only sentence someone to death once but the number of lives he can otherwise ruin across generations is *far* greater.
"The constitution doesn't apply to non-citizens!" True, but it doesn't apply to citizens either. It applies to the federal government. What is so hard to understand about that?
The 14th Amendment?
I mean, should I explain it? Am I being more of a condescending asshole if I do explain it, or if I don't and say something snarky instead?
It's fine with me if you just stop posting.
Yeah, I bet you'd sure hate a government that were not omnipotent and unconstrained just like every idiot within the Overton Window would these days.
13th Amendment is a better example.
So, when columns of invading soldiers are marching across our border, we must welcome them as migrants exercising their 2nd Amendment rights?
Look, they just want to squat in someone’s house in peace.
It’s their right as non citizens!
That would be covered by the power to repel a foreign invasion. Nothing in the Second Amendment is worded so as to repeal that power.
If they're just peacefully walking down the road, what makes them "invaders"?
Maybe the Russians should have just peacefully walked down the road to Kiev.
Why not? According to Reason and Jeffy, they have a right to cross any border anytime, and the fact that they are exercising their right to bear arms shouldn't change that.
Marching armed in columns would be a pretty dead giveaway.
Don't they have constitutionally protected rights to do that?
This is just a little bit of Alice in Wonderland: "Words mean whatever I say they mean!"
The "right of the people" doesn't mean ALL people, just the one's we like? The Declaration make it clear that ALL people have natural rights *as human beings*, not because they have citizenship papers.
Likewise, no armed government enforcer acquires any legitimate power to enforce (or violate) any U.S. law in ANY other nation, even if he thinks it's the "right thing to do".
The founders intended the constitution to cover the whole world?
I like how that quote was cut to drop the context that clarified it applied to the citizens of this nation
VULGAR MADMAN
"... The founders intended the constitution to cover the whole world? ..."
They intended the explicit statement in the Declaration that ALL human beings have natural rights to their own life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness.
The Constitution's preamble says its purpose is to *secure* those rights, as well as other (civil) rights which may be dependent on derivations from fundamental rights or from cultural norms.
As it stands, there are ONLY two rights granted exclusively to citizens: 1) the right to vote and 2) the right to run for office. That is the "republic" that Franklin was talking about. All other Constitutional rights apply to ALL people within the geographic domain of the United States.
As much as the Founders (and most of us here) would have liked to see a version of our Constitution in every nation, everywhere on Earth, they were sensible men who knew that social change is very slow.
In the Constitution, "the people" does not include all "persons" in the United States. While all "persons" have certain rights, other rights are reserved to "the people," and some others to "citizens."
From Heller:
What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. As we said in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):
“‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. . . . [Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.” (end quote)
What the judge is doing is putting illegal immigrants on same footing as "we, the people."
Mike Hansberry
(USSC in US v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 1990:)
“... '[T]he people' seems to refer to a class of persons who are part of a national community ... or ... considered part of that community.”
Granted, there were "deviations" from the natural rights ideals when the Declaration and Constitution were composed, but slavery was abolished very early and women were slowly recognized as full-fledged hu-men beings: all people were recognized as "persons".
Mike: "What the judge is doing is putting illegal immigrants on same footing as 'we, the people'.”
When someone jaywalks, they are committing a (minor) crime, but that doesn't make them "illegal walkers". They are simply persons who have done something illegal. That person may suffer some legal penalty, but they do not lose any of their natural or civil rights. Migrants are just jaywalking across a border. Fine them $50 and let them join all the "legal migrants" waiting for citizenship.
WWestmiller,
Your reply is non-responsive.
You initially claimed that "This is just a little bit of Alice in Wonderland" but the fact is that the Constitution does make a distinction between "persons", "the people", and "citizens." You may not like this, but it is not a case of “Words mean whatever I say they mean!"
Mike Hansberry
"You initially claimed that 'This is just a little bit of Alice in Wonderland' ...
I was referring to a multitude of re-defined words in the article, not clear distinctions in the Constitution.
In the Constitution, "We the people" refers to all persons under the jurisdiction of the federal government. The word includes every "person", whether they are "natural born", "migrants", "residents" or "citizens". It does not in any way suggest that all natural rights are exclusively held by citizens, nor that the Bill of Rights does not apply to all persons within U.S. jurisdiction.
They are not immigrants. They are illegal aliens, and the 2A does not apply to them.
Moreover, we *could* have a situation, especially WRT the 2A (and/or welfare), where it truly doesn't matter. But retards like Doherty don't want that. They want to grant special privileges to illegal immigrants while holding unprecedented numbers of black people in prison for non-violent weapons charges and blame Republicans as racist for saying it's not fair when immigrants get special rights.
Some supposed defenders of the right to bear arms react with alarm.
Because it's not the right to bear arms that's at issue - much as you'd like to push the narrative that direction.
It's about the fact that a foreign national has infiltrated the nation through illegal means and is armed with deadly force. For as much as I decry the hyperbole of referring to border jumpers as "invaders" - this time it actually qualifies..
And here's a question nobody wants to ask: how'd he get the gun? He's in Chicago - does he have his FOID?
And here's another question nobody wants to ask: how does this happen in Chicago? You and I as legal American citizens who properly purchased and registered firearms aren't even allowed to carry our 100% legal firearms into Illinois if we don't live and didn't purchase them there. But this guy is? And concealed at that? (No open carry in Illinois.) Did he get a CCL to? If so, how?
The reason defenders of the right to bear arms are rightfully pissed about this isn't because of the right to bear arms. It's because of the sheer hypocrisy of it all. A normal, lawful, honest American has to jump through hoops these days to exercise his 2nd Amendment Rights - but some military-aged border jumping criminal gets the green flag and an apology to boot?
It's not a 2A gripe. It's a brazenly corrupt judge/city/federal government gripe.
Can people previously convicted of this crime now sue for damages since the law, apparently, is not constitutional?
YES!
I love how you all get so fucking upset when some illegal filth vermin has their liberty restored, because you perceive that you and your team aren't also entitled to the same thing.
This whole discussion has made it absolutely obvious - the right-wing view of liberty is that it is a hierarchy. Only those most worthy of it are entitled to its full blessings. Everyone else lower on the hierarchy are less and less entitled to it. Illegals are at the bottom and aren't entitled to shit.
Liberty is not a hierarchy. Liberty is not to be doled out to whomever is deemed most worthy. Liberty is a birthright of every human being, period, end of story. That is the LIBERTARIAN take on liberty.
I would expect a LIBERTARIAN would be happy that a person whose liberty was previously violated now has his/her liberty restored. But not in right-wing-land, when a person who has his liberty restored is treated scornfully because that person wasn't at the top of the hierarchy.
So anyone can enter the US in violation of law and vote in elections? Does Citizenship mean anything? Does law mean anything?
It is this puerile "open borders" fetish that has made the Libertarian Party a laughing stock. Labeling libertarians who embrace the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as "right wing" fanatics shows how far you have strayed into some alternate reality.
So, we should let everyone out of prison immediately?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
The only people the Constitution applies to are 'the governed' who empowered the government in question.
People who did NOT empower their governments to secure their liberties who come here are visitors, and are treated with the amount of respect they earn by being good visitors.
They are not automatically entitled to all our rights, privileges, and liberties.
Those who break in to our country are NOT visitors. They are not entitled to ANY of our rights, privileges, and liberties. They are disrespecting everything they want to claim.
Language.
Liberty is a birthright of every human being, period, end of story.
Spare me your posturing. If you believed that even slightly, you'd have turned your oh-so-righteous indignation against the same government that strips those same liberties from American citizens. Instead you turned it against me. Fancy that.
You've got a lot to say about the "rights" of border jumping criminals. Where's that same effort devoted to the average American?
You're not a libertarian Jeff. You're an anarchist.
The US Constitution wasn't written to be applied globally for foreign invaders. I cannot hardly fathom how stupid this premise is.
> gun law scholar and generally a tenacious defender of a hardcore interpretation of the Second Amendment John Lott is suspicious that this is just "an Obama judge acting in a very calculated way to try to create problems for interpreting the Second Amendment."
Conservatives: Freedom for me not for thee.s, not a regulation of who can or cannot bear arms.
"Freedom for me not for thee" -- Within one's own nation/home(USA) in contrast to trespassers(Foreign Invaders). As-if that hasn't been well understood since the concept of ownership/claim has ever existed.
Maybe you'd like to have black masked robbers trespass in your home and claim the 'freedom' you have to take stuff, use the bathroom and sleep in your room.
Every right in the constitution applies to everyone, no matter immigration or citizenship status. Why would 2A be different?
Because an illegal immigrant is an invader in the act of committing a crime.
Every right in the constitution applies to everyone, no matter immigration or citizenship status.
If you're so blind to sex, gender, race, creed, and country of origin why do Russians get prosecuted for failure to register as agents of a foreign government when they simply performed free speech on Facebook while Hunter Biden actively secures funding from agents associated with foreign governments and walks free?
Your charade isn't fooling anyone.
Again, to be clear, this is the magazine that said that Kyle Rittenhouse shouldn't have been within 20 min. of his house... where his Dad lives.
They don't give a shit about guns or immigrants. This is about Fuck You, That's Why.
We don't give a shit about you.
Or equality or people. We know. It's obvious and you really, really care that the right people not recognize it.
Once again, who do you think you guys are fooling?
You openly flaunt that you don't care about the rights of any one person exercising free speech on the internet with zero clue as to who they are or how or why their rights might actually be infringed. You're even proud of it. All you care about is that you've got a talking point so that you can talk about what hypocrites pouncing Republicans are to whatever peer group you suck up, or down, to.
Rights? Dude, seek mental help!
You're running around responding to yourself, throwing out irrelevant well poisoning attacks, insulting the authors for having a different political slants (oh god, the writers might be left-learning, the horror!) bringing up irrelevant other issues (CTRL+F "Rittenhouse") and just generally being an obnoxious piss baby.
Excellent finding in favor of the Second Amendment! Next to eliminate IDs for buying firearms, just like voting!!!
These illegal aliens are also felons, so I guess other felons can have firearms too... Another freedom!