Texas and Florida Want the Supreme Court To Bless Their Unconstitutional Social Media Laws
Both states are trying to force tech companies to platform certain sorts of speech.

The Supreme Court heard oral arguments today in two pivotal cases concerning social media. These cases—NetChoice & CCIA v. Paxton and Moody v. NetChoice and CCIA—are of huge importance for the future of free expression and free association online.
"The fate of free expression on the internet is largely at stake," said Lawrence Walters, general counsel with the Woodhull Freedom Foundation, at a Monday afternoon press conference. It would be "mass chaos…if the states were allowed to enforce these rules."
The challenges were brought by tech industry groups NetChoice and the Computer and Communications Industry Association (CCIA) against first-of-their-kind laws in Florida and Texas. The tech groups were also joined today by U.S. Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar, who participated on their behalf.
Today's arguments touched on everything from common carrier requirements and public accommodations laws to terrorism, Section 230, antitrust law, net neutrality, newspapers, and much more. But at the crux of this matter is a simple question of whether the government can compel speech.
The Texas and Florida Laws
In Texas, the state declared large social media platforms "common carriers" and forbade them from viewpoint-based blocking or suppressing of content. The law "is blatantly unconstitutional and inconsistent with federal law," wrote Reason Senior Editor Jacob Sullum when it first passed in 2021. Texas Gov. Greg Abbott justified the law by saying social media platforms disproportionately silence conservatives—a contention not borne out by evidence. But even if true, tech companies would be well within their rights to do so. The First Amendment means the government can't make you associate with speech you don't want to associate with. It can't force a baker to make a pro–gay marriage cake and it can't force a website to carry pro-Trump comments, and so on.
The Florida law, also passed in 2021, says large social media platforms can't reject speech by any "candidate for office," can't suppress or block content "by or about" political candidates, and can't "censor, deplatform, or shadow ban a journalistic enterprise based on the content of its publication or broadcast." This is also blatantly unconstitutional, for the same reasons that apply to the Texas case. The First Amendment doesn't just prohibit government authorities from censoring speech but also from compelling speech.
Both laws "violate the First Amendment rights of private social media platforms, which build user bases by facilitating and moderating content in ways the users find beneficial," Max Gulker, a senior policy analyst with the Reason Foundation (the nonprofit that publishes this website), pointed out last December. "Supporters of the state laws…repeatedly lose track of this distinction." (For a deeper look at arguments against these laws, check out the amicus brief filed by the Reason Foundation and several other nonprofit groups.)
The NetChoice and CCIA challenges to both laws have been winding their way through the federal court systems for years and, today, finally landed before the U.S. Supreme Court.
Today's Arguments
Representatives from NetChoice and CCIA appeared in good spirits at a post-court press conference, where they rehashed some of the high-level arguments against the Texas and Florida laws.
"The state has no business protecting individual viewpoints or picking winners and losers in the marketplace of ideas," said Matt Schruers, CCIA president and CEO. He noted that in court, both states desperately attempted to "reframe the editorial choices of websites as conduct" so as to try and escape First Amendment protections (which is something we see all too frequently with laws aimed at social media companies).
"The government cannot violate the First Amendment, and it especially cannot do so in the name of preserving free speech—that is Orwellian," said Chris Marchese, director of the NetChoice Litigation Center.
He noted that there was a lot of talk during oral arguments about Section 230, a federal communications law that protects social media platforms from some liability for the speech of their users.
But Section 230 questions may distract from the fact that this is a First Amendment case.
"If the law violates [the First Amendment], the 230 [question] is effectively moot since 230 procedurally facilitates 1A," commented Jess Miers, senior counsel with the Chamber of Progress and an adjunct professor at Santa Clara Law, on X (formerly Twitter).
Alas, this is something very hard for people—including, apparently, some Supreme Court justices—to understand. "I'm not really sure how else NetChoice can make this clear," Miers commented after the issue kept coming up again and again. "The Court just doesn't get it."
Good News or Bad News?
Tech policy analysts who oppose the Texas and Florida laws saw some reasons for optimism and some reasons for concern in today's oral arguments.
"An uncomfortably large number of the justices peered down an uncomfortably large number of rabbit holes that, if they fall in, will result in disaster for the platforms and the Internet as a whole," commented Corbin Barthold, internet policy counsel at TechFreedom. (Barthold did a very extensive, real-time rundown of the arguments on X.)
But at least some justices appeared skeptical of Texas' arguments that social media should be regulated like a common carrier that has a legal obligation to serve everyone. For instance, Justice Samuel Alito said Texas was assuming social media companies are like the telegraph or telephone companies, and he doesn't think they are.
"This is crucial—if the Court doesn't buy common carriage, Texas loses," commented Miers.
Kavanaugh also seemed to scoff at the idea that a state can simply say social media companies are common carriers. "Kavanaugh gets it—he knows that you can't just declare common carriage and he's effectively drawing that out here," noted Miers.
"In the Florida case, the justices' questioning recognized the wide variety of services these laws could impact beyond traditional social media platforms," said Jennifer Huddleston, tech policy research fellow at the Cato Institute, in a statement. (Huddleston also posted live updates on X about the oral arguments.) Their questions indicated that "they understood other services subject to the law include marketplaces like Etsy, email services, and even apps like Uber."
Thomas Berry, also a research fellow for the Cato Institute, said, "It appears that a majority of the Court is likely to find that the laws violate the First Amendment, at least when they force traditional social media sites like Facebook and X to change their moderation practices and disseminate speech they want to exclude. As Justice Kavanaugh repeatedly urged, the First Amendment protects private actors against government censorship; it does not allow the government to tell private actors what they must publish. Chief Justice Roberts and Justice [Elena] Kagan also indicated strong skepticism that a website's core editorial functions can ever be commandeered by a state law without violating with the Constitution."
"What is less clear is how the Court will resolve the case," Berry added, noting that "many options are on the table, including potentially a request to the state courts to lend greater clarity on the scope of the laws."
Vera Eidelman, staff attorney with American Civil Liberties Union's Speech, Privacy, and Technology Project, noted at the press conference that the courts could settle the different laws in different ways.
Miers posted that she thinks the laws are "unlikely to survive" and that the justices will "likely vacate and remand" to the lower courts.
"The court had significant concerns with the scope of these laws, with the compelled speech requirements, with some of the vagueness… so I think the states are going to be in a little bit of trouble here," said Walters.
But is this all just a giant game of Whac-A-Mole? Whatever happens here, noted Walters, "the states are not going to stop trying to regulate the internet."
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There are good policy arguments against the state social media laws but this article does not make the case. This article assumes its own conclusion right at the front when it says that social media companies are not common carriers.
Under a purist interpretation of freedom of association, all common carrier laws (and essentially all anti-discrimination laws) are unconstitutional. Yet both past precedents and the author's own policy preferences show that at least some common carrier and anti-discrimination laws pass muster. In order to strike down these recent laws, you must have a legal argument that distinguishes the cases. This article presents no such arguments - it simply assumes them.
Note that both Kavanaugh and Miers are wrong. Of course legislatures can simply declare that particular businesses are common carriers. That's how the current common carriers were defined. Legislative designation is the only legal basis on which they can be defined. I'm not especially comfortable that legislatures have so much authority but I'm a lot more uncomfortable with the idea that courts have the power to pick and choose which designations they will support and which they won't.
SCOTUS has ruled that owning property doesn’t mean anyone can violate inalienable rights.
“ The more an owner, for his advantage, opens up his property for use by the public in general, the more do his rights become circumscribed by the statutory and constitutional rights of those who use it.”
Marsh v State of Alabama 1946
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/326/501
Curious of your examples of inalienable rights. The right to living space in The East?
Genocide isn’t an inalienable right.
Unless, that is, ye are an Adolf-Adoring Hitler-Humping Miserable Misek!
Why aren’t you concerned with the fact that Jews are committing a holocaust today fuckwit?
You don’t need Hitler when you have bibi.
I call BS to this article. You can not have it both ways. Liberals want anyone to be allowed to join any club at any time, any political party they want to associate with (to vote in conservative politics to change the primary results). They want girls to be mandated into the BOY SCOUTS.
Yet here we are with an obviously EXTREMELY LIBERAL ideology that businesses should be allowed to say NO to some people's ideals being broadcast on social media. Can't have it BOTH ways using the same laws and the same logic.
The LIBERALS did this to themselves and now much pay the price, there are consequences to their idea of social change and what is correct. Now they have dead ended their argument for the courts. Should they get a reversal, then gays and girls will not be allowed in the Boy Scouts. I could go on and on but the same law can not be applied in opposite intent,
Beware when fighting monsters that you don't become a monster yourself.
Boy Scouts are allowed to exclude gays and girls. Which they have for decades, but now are choosing to include them. They even changed their name to reflect this. It was not done by government law. Open primaries have nothing to do with this at all. Social Media companies have a vested interest in prohibiting raw racism, bigotry, or dangerous lies. They don't want to be associated with that and they should be allowed to say no. There is also a big difference between a public business not being allowed to exclude blacks and forcing Facebook to host Nazi and anti-vax bullshit.
dangerous lies...anti-vax bullshit
Tell me how you are a censoring leftist without saying you are a censoring leftist.
It is not about left or right. Facebook does not want to host lying sacks of shit who think it is funny to convince people to forgo vaccines. It weakens their brand. The internet can be very toxic, and social media companies are well within their rights to keep their sites clean.
Anti-Vaxx used to be a leftist movement with more on the right arguing that vaccinations were necessary for the public good. As late as the 2010s I heard right wingers bitching about leftists who didn't want their kids being vaccinated.
Gave up after the first paragraph.
Section 230 protects the companies from POSTED speech, not their own.
Therefore requiring POSTED speech to remain up is NOT compelling the companies' speech.
The legislative intent of 230 was to allow the platforms to do light moderation without incurring liability for the content they left up (the previous legal regime was that any moderation incurred liability for the remaining content). It was not intended as carte blanche permission to do full, heavy handed moderation without assuming liability.
We have seen in the past eight plus years how badly the platforms have abused their users with ever changing TOS, lack of transparency, colluding with the federal government to shut dissenting voices down, and general dishonesty. The platforms have been daring the political Right for a reckoning on this for years now.
Yes, but ENB believes:
Texas Gov. Greg Abbott justified the law by saying social media platforms disproportionately silence conservatives—a contention not borne out by evidence.
Hence, she is not seeing what has been obvious for a decade. Maybe she should read the Twitter files accounts.
https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/29/as-predicted-parler-is-banning-users-it-doesnt-like/
PROOF that Government Almighty needs to take over Parler, to PROTECT us all from censorShit!!!!
Didn't read the article, but there is no way she could honestly believe that without being completely insulated in a bubble
"Therefore requiring POSTED speech to remain up is NOT compelling the companies’ speech."
Links to dark-web child porn? Murder for hire ads? National defense secrets? ... VERY quickly, that becomes unworkable, in the real world! You'd need butt-tons of if-else, except-for clauses! You want to run social media under those rules? Prepare for 10,000 lawyers to micro-manage your web site, and charge those who post, $55.39 per word, to pay for shit all!
Hey, I have an idea! How about property rights? And maybe web site owners could run their OWN properties as they see fit!
We recently saw Congress threaten tech companies with legislative action if they did not censor speech to Congressional sensitivities. So functionally, our government is censoring our speech.
Although this is not verbal speech, it is the speech of American citizens that they are censoring, getting around the !st Amendment violation with an end run that is still a violation. Social media and online speech is modern speech and should be protected more than it is. That it is a company owned platform is superfluous, it is modern American speech.
Even with current standards of censorship you can't say anything fucking real, rather, you've got to agree with whatever the government is currently stating or be censored, blocked, or kicked out. "Land of the free" is bs indoctrination. Approval of government actions is conditional upon acceptance by the citizenry, not the government.
That it is a company owned platform is superfluous,
No. It is entirely the point. The Constitution recognises citizens' free speech rights versus the government, not companies.
That is, because companies own the platforms, not the government,
It's modern speech. In the recent congressional hearings on the matter, tech companies were told "they had blood on their hands" and if speech were not censored legislative action against them would be taken. Does that make it sound like the companies are making the decision or the government? The platforms censor speech under threat from government, especially if the speech in question does not meet the objective of our government whims.
If the companies were making these decisions on their own, why would congress roast these companies over fire for allowing free speech? Is it because we live in the Iran of the west? Where government can always come up with some excuse not to honor the 1st amendment? Or freedom in general? Freedom is inconvenient for them, and therefore should be disallowed.
Social media platforms are platforms for modern american speech, and free speech in a "forum open to the public" should be free from direct or indirect government censorship. Does the constitution stipulate that citizens only have free speech while sitting on their couch in their own home and nobody else is listening? No, we are supposed to have free speech in america, and we need to get it back. You are free not to listen.
"Modern American speech" is not a legal thing.
You are free not to listen.
You get so close, and then veer off into the nearest crevasse.
You are free not to listen. You are also free not to provide a platform for someone else's speech. But you would require that privately-owned social media platforms have to let anyone use them, that the government can compel you to repost someone else's speech.
If you have a complaint against your post being censored, the usual reaction would be to file suit, in a government-run court.
But the government-run courts have a law that protects against the aggrieved being able to force compliance, which makes the entity protected a de facto government agent.
As long as platforms are under the protection of the Section 230, those platforms are part of the government, and prohibited from interfering with free speech, except where the action done, is in good faith, which censoring of one side of political discussion is clearly not.
"As long as platforms are under the protection of the Section 230, those platforms are part of the government..."
'Cause Power Pig said so! "As long as your living room is protected by the police, or a Government-Almighty-permitted electronic alarm system, your living room is part of Government Almighty, Marxist Citizen!"
You right-wing Power Pigs believe in the Law of the Jungle! You come here to a LIBERTARIAN web site, to comment and try to get 51% of the voters to agree with YOUR power piggery!!! If 51% of the voters agree with the Trumpanzees of the Jungle, then that makes it RIGHT that we can take over their web sites, their living rooms, AND their wives!!! Why not? Why twat? Why twat pussy-grabbing, so long ass we can get 51% of the voters to agree with Dear Leader that pussy-grabbing is good and right and true?
Night is day, day is night, speech control is free speech, speech is violence, lack of speech is violence (“silence is violence”), and… Facebook is Government Almighty!!! Just ask Retarded Fur! HE will tell you ALL about “Facebook is Government Almighty!!!”
All the lies facilitate making the lies come true… After all, if “Facebook is Government Almighty” already, then why should we NOT subject Facebook to the whims of the votes of the crowds? And then the corner-store grocer is Government Almighty also, and so is my church, and so are my personal decisions on who to marry, what profession to take up, and… And EVERYTHING is ALREADY Government Almighty, so it MUST be treated as such!
The social media companies should be treated just like utilities, and they should not be allowed to restrict their services to customers they "like." Like it or not, they are the public square of the 21st Century, even if they are private companies. The government frequently prevents private companies from rejecting customers they may not wish to serve, from housing sales and rentals, to refusing to serve certain customers who "don't look like the owner," and many other situations. They force us to sit through their ads, even if I don't agree with the product being pushed.
I agree.
The utilities argument is based on the idea of natural monopolies. You can't reasonably expect multiple providers of electricity or water, all requiring their own lines, pipes, infrastructure, etc. to compete everywhere.
But social media are evidently not natural monopolies. They can experience competition, even though branding may present a high barrier to entry.
Utilities are something required for modern life.
Gas, water, sewer, electricity and telephone (both cellular and land line)
These are things that if you don't have them you aren't in the modern world. You can't cook food, heat your home in the winter, cool in the summer, have clean water for drinking and removal of wastes, or emergency communications. The poorest American has these piped into their taxpayer funded home. Without them you may as well be living in Bangladesh.
Facebook isn't on this list for a reason. Plenty of people survive not using Facebook, X. Tic Tic and a plethora of others. I haven't been on Facebook for over a decade. I checked out X when Musk took over and got tossed for calling Chenk Ugher (misspelled I know, you know who I am talking about) q filthy whore. Haven't gone back since, never used it before Elon took over. The rest if the Alphabet of idiotic "services" I avoid like the plague. Plenty of others don't bother and seem to be living healthy lives, arguably healthier for the less stress of not being on social media.
Libertarians tend to accept utilities as a neccesary evil. It would be too hard to privatize the delivery of these services so we don't bitch. But why give governments more power? I thought the plan was to move toward smaller government.
901Tiger's living room, whenever 901Tiger has a cocktail party and invites a few people over, should (like it or not) be treated as a common carrier, since 901Tiger's living room is a public square of the 21st Century, even if it's a privately owned living room. Because I said so! Especially if my Marxism and I can persuade 51% of the voters to take over 901Tiger's living room! Hey, why not?!
"Kavanaugh gets it—he knows that you can't just declare common carriage and he's effectively drawing that out here,"
Um, isn't that exactly how the telephone companies became common carriers, the government stepped in and declared them common carriers?
Well, that is how they got designated common carriers, but it doesn't mean the two situations are equally justified.
Telephone companies (in the 1920s and 30s): monopoly service in a given area, allowed to run wires on government right-of-way when ordinary citizens can't , given eminent domain to get easements on private property.
With modern technology I wouldn't have any problem with a wireless company offering an ideologically-themed-and-enforced cell-phone service, and just saying it's not a common carrier.
There is such a carrier in fact. Patriot Mobile. There's a whole alternate economy growing of people who hate woke shit offering services to people who hate woke shit.
My only problem is all of then come with an unhealthy dose of Christianity. The anarchist athiest isn't a demographic that gets much service.
“but it doesn’t mean the two situations are equally justified.”
And that has what to do with the categorical statement that you “can’t just declare common carriage”?
Sometimes it's justified and sometimes it's not necessarily means that the statement "you can’t just declare common carriage" is false.
Ok, government CAN declare something a common carrier with no more logic or reason they declare pasties and a patch of fabric over the naughty bits to be not nudity.
The question is SHOULD they declare social media as common carriers and regulate them as utilities.
I say no. But that's based on being an actual small government libertarian who doesn't bother with any of the major social media companies. This is the only place I post my thoughts because they let me use "fuck" as a noun, verb, adjective, adverb, conjunction and punctuation.
Once again, Reason:
Get out of DC.
Fire KMW.
Liberty first, pragmatism second.
You know what the real problem is, ENB? It's that the US justice system makes it impossible for normal people to hold Big Tech accountable for their fraud and violating their own terms of service.
Those clowns all make it seem like they are the ultimate way to reach out to family, friends, customers, and businesses. Yet they censor posts and cancel accounts for bullshit reasons, with no practical recourse. This isn't laissez-faire, this is cronyism, government and cronies protecting each other.
A real justice system would let every falsely canceled poster sue them without waiting for a couple of years because the government doesn't have enough judges and courts.
A real justice system would not depend on arcane laws which require scarce and expensive and artificially limited college degrees to even argue about in court.
Yes, it's stupid for governments to stick their noses into private business affairs. But the US legal system does just that already, day in, day out, in ways far worse than turning on some cronies. I'd much rather have the government show its bad faith to the cronies who have bribed it, rather than be all palsy-walsy 100% of the time.
"It’s that the US justice system makes it impossible for normal people to hold Big Tech accountable for their fraud and violating their own terms of service."
Oh bullshit!!! The usual "terms of service" for FREE shit from social media is "we do what we want, and if you don't like it, take your non-money elsewhere". Not in those words, but to that effect. And if you do NOT like it... Ask for your non-money back! FacePooo will GLADLY give you ALL $0,000,000.00 of it right back!
I think we should argue for an end to corporate personhood so the corporate decision makers can hide behind byzantine laws when their corporation does bad things.
That would be better than arguing over should a social media company fall under this kind of corporate protection or this other kind of corporate protection.
As a Texan, Reddit has got a big fat Lawsuit on its hands day one from me if they lose this case. And by big fat I mean maybe $4000 in Small Claims Court for canceling my account without cause and denying me access to everything that I paid them to obtain; which was certainly more than nothing.
If the Federal government is illegally censoring points of view on these platforms (they are and have been for several years), what are we supposed to make of ideologically opposed State governments pushing back by unconstitutionally trying to undo actions that are also unconstitutional? Two wrongs don't make a right I suppose, but then what's to be done about the first wrong? Nothing?
Hey whining crybaby… I pay (PAY! With MY money! I OWN!) for my own web site at Go-Daddy. I say some VERY sarcastic and un-politically-correct, intolerant things about cults like Scientology there (and Government Almighty as well). I am QUITE sure that a LOT of “tolerant” liberal-type folks at Google etc. would NOT be happy with the types of things I wrote! Yet, if you do a search-string “Scienfoology”, Google will take you STRAIGHT to MY web site, a top hit! #2!
https://www.google.com/search?q=scienfoology&nfpr=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPzZqf0dXsAhUCT6wKHez9DNwQvgUoAXoECDEQKg&biw=1920&bih=941
Your whining and crying is (just about ) UTTERLY without basis!
WHERE is your respect for property rights?! I learned to respect the property rights of others, before I was in the 1st grade! Didn’t your Momma raise you right?
"Two wrongs don't make a right."
But three do.
Let's see...
- the fairness doctrine
- the FCC and broadcast rules tied to licenses
- accomodation/civil rights law
Seems to me the government can indeed tell private companies what to do and not be declared "unconstitutional." What's the difference here?
Oh principals not principles....
Yes, they do it all the time to skirt laws they don't like. It's why they call it "the land of the free", meaning, government's goal is to "free" the citizenry of any temptation for behavior not in accordance with government approved puritanical interests.
Those are the camels nose in the tent. You are advocating inviting the camel in for tea.
I really tried to understand the logic and reasoning behind this article, and I read it twice.
1. “These cases—NetChoice & CCIA v. Paxton and Moody v. NetChoice and CCIA—are of huge importance for the future of free expression and free association online.”
I don’t understand how this fits with the position of this article, as the article appears to be against the idea of free expression and free association. Removing people from a platform on the basis of mere disagreement with opinion is the opposite of free expression, and having those opinions removed goes against free association. How the article contains the opposite idea is mind-boggling, as is the idea that when a social media platform publishes something created by a third party, it is somehow speech made by that social media publisher. Publishing third party content is NOT speech made by the publisher, and this article conflates this.
These laws have nothing to do with limiting the social media companies free speech rights, as they refer to the users of these services having their free speech rights upheld. The social media platforms are being held as publishing platforms, open to the public.
The idea that social media platforms are viewed as a “public square” or “common carriers” isn’t all that radical an idea, and would fall perfectly in line with democratic ideals of decades and centuries past. It appears now that the Democratic Party has turned itself into shills for corporate power, becoming whom they once held under scrutiny.
2. “The First Amendment means the government can't make you associate with speech you don't want to associate with.”
How exactly are these laws making this happen for any of the users of these social media platforms? Oh wait, this article doesn’t support the users, it only argues for the rights of the social media corporations, because their rights supersede the rights of the masses. Obviously.
I’ll end here, passing on the opportunity to write a multipage reply out of common sense and courtesy. I will say though, that this article falls short of standards, in my opinion. There was little to no attempt to make this an unbiased article, but rather to present what the author agrees with, and it is incredibly flimsy.
Xenon6 ... Please post in YOUR NAME, shit that you do NOT bleeve in!!!
I dare you... Repost (dammit, I'm not sure TWAT your hot buttons are)....
"I, Xenon6, think that Trump LOVES the idea of the Lizard People eating ALL new-born babies of the sub-human illegal sub-Martians"...
And if'n ye will NOT re-post this shit in YOUR name, then ye are practicing CENSOR-SHIT on IDEAs!!!! ... Now HOW is this somehow DIFFERENT than FORCING people (and their web sites) from supporting posts that they HATE and despise?!??
If you have a channel on YouTube and post a video, for instance, what kind of brain dead moron would think that is YouTube speaking rather than you?
There are morons who see YouTube as a television station, but everyone else's freedom of speech should not be sacrificed to accommodation them.
This is why we have Section 230... For just ONCE, Government Almighty wisely limited it own powers, via S-230!!
Yet ALL kinds of brain dead morons lust endlessly after tearing DOWN S-230 so that they can... Pussy-grab their enemies!!! Who will NEVER think of pussy-grabbing them right back!
"They took DOWN my post!!!! WAAAAAAA!!!!"
Section 230 was to allow limited moderation, i.e. illegal activities, without incurring liability for the remaining content. It was not to grant liability immunity with full editorial control.
"It was not to grant liability immunity with full editorial control."
That kind of thing appears nowhere in the S-230 law! "Intent of the legislators" is sometimes considered by the courts, yes. That does NOT make mushy-gushy interpretations work very well at ALL, in a society of laws, not men!
WHO do you want web sites to belong to, the web site owners, or Government Almighty? Are you ready to pay $35 per word to post to Reason.com, for Reason.com to pay an army of lawyers to parse what they may and may not take down? In Mickey Rat-land, would Reason.com still be allowed to take down child-porn links and murder-for-hire ads? Do you think that it is fair and just, that the Association of Catholic Nuns Who Garden-Tend, if it sets up a chat group for discussing their hobby, should be forced to accept pro-abortion, anti-Catholic-nuns rants, on their internet forum? What happened to private property rights, and the right to freely associate, or not associate?
All that you are telling me is that Section 230 is perhaps a poorly written law that accomplished the opposite effect of its intentions, which are social media platforms moderated in a highly censorious, capapricious, opaque and dishonest fashion that made it easy for a faction in the federal government to coopt for its own propaganda purposes.
You mean, like Parler, for example?
https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/29/as-predicted-parler-is-banning-users-it-doesnt-like/
PROOF that Government Almighty needs to take over Parler, to PROTECT us all from censorShit!!!!
Or do you mean like Donald Trump?
https://www.npr.org/2020/05/27/863011399/trump-threatens-to-shut-down-social-media-after-twitter-adds-warning-on-his-twee
Trump Threatens To Shut Down Social Media After Twitter Adds Warning To His Tweets
"Texas Gov. Greg Abbott justified the law by saying social media platforms disproportionately silence conservatives—a contention not borne out by evidence."
In a reality where the Twitter Files exist, how could anyone make that assertion and have any shred of credibility left for the rest of what they have to say?
"..."they understood other services subject to the law include marketplaces like Etsy, email services, and even apps like Uber."
What is the argument for an e-mail service (outside of outright illegal activity and harassing others) have editorial rights over the content of their user's communications? They are not seen by the general public. At what point do the user's free speech and privacy rights assert themselves?
Yeah, this is the crux of the biscuit. I understand the fears of giving regulatory power to governments over this. But all I ask is at the very least is stop gaslighting us that it’s not happening.
If a big and loud enough swath of the citizenry could at least come to understand that the government is careening towards fascist public/private “synchronization” across all sectors, then maybe there won’t need to be legal warfare waged against the powers that be. Public outrage might at least slow it down or force it to be a little more subtle.
Probably not. But strangely, a lot of libertarian outlets can’t even manage the admitting there’s a problem part.
Some of us remember when conservatives were in control. We didn't like it any more than the leftist being in control. You both suck at being in charge.
Depressing how many on the right and left are deeply confused.
The First Amendment does not protect fairness of speech. It protects freedom of speech, from government.
The words to focus on are "Congress shall make no law" and by incorporation, "States shall make no law".
In a First Amendment dispute, who is trying to sick the law on a private person or organization? That is the party that should lose.
In this case, no one. Those who oppose Big Social Media censorship are arguing for MORE freedom of expression, not trying to silence anyone.
WHO do web sites belong to? The web site owners, or Government Almighty, and Marxism-loving, property-hating voters? This is a VERY important question!
(Did yer Momma teach you to respect the property of others, and NOT steal their toys? If not, WHY did she NOT teach you this?)
Whom does the telephone infrastructure belong to?
To the owners.
HOWEVER, in the name of the "utility to the public" (which is why they call it a "public utility"), it does NOT make sense for there to be TWENTY railroads (oil pipelines, telephone lines, roads, railroads, etc.), ALL with their own "eminent domain" right-of-ways, competing with each other, on ONE given route! Therefor, we have public regulation of public utilities!!! NONE of which applies to web sites!!!! HELLO, did ya fall off of the turnip truck yesterday?
Laws rarely create liberty. They almost always restrict it.
The right is just pissed off that they didn't take over social media first. Just like during COVID the commentators on the right weren't arguing for school choice, home schooling, vouchers or anything like that. They wanted the fucking government schools reopened because they want to take them back and use them to indoctrinate. They're just pissed that the left managed to take over the schools and libraries from them.
The right doesn't want smaller government. They just want to cut what the left likes. They don't want individual liberty, they want to be free to do what they like and stop people from doing what they don't like.
The left and right are the same animal.
The right doesn’t want smaller government. They just want to cut what the left likes. ... The left and right are the same animal.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that both the left and the right are equally statist. They still want different policies.
I'd much rather have children indoctrinated into equality under the law, free markets, and Christian values than into equity, neo-Marxism, and atheism.
Libertarianism arises out of functioning conservative societies. The only thing that arises out of socialist/progressive societies is chaos, poverty, and violence.
"I’d much rather have children indoctrinated into equality under the law, free markets, and Christian values than into equity, neo-Marxism, and atheism."
Except for (among other SPECIAL exceptions perhaps?) control of web sites!!! THERE, Noy-Boy-Toy-Boy is for 100% undiluted MARXISM, whereby Government Almighty tells you that "you didn't build that", so "your" web site R belong to US! Government Almighty controls "your" web site!
The First Amendment does not protect fairness of speech. It protects freedom of speech, from government.
Which is why it doesn't apply here. We're not talking about regulating Google's or Facebook's speech, we are talking about regulating the services they provide.
who is trying to sick the law on a private person or organization
Neither Google nor Facebook are "private organizations"; they were created with government funding and are in bed with the US government.
"Neither Google nor Facebook are “private organizations”; they were created with government funding and are in bed with the US government."
"You didn't build that." Not the church, the grocery store, the farm, or the machine shop either!!! They ALL belong to Marxist Government Almighty!!! And immigrunts from Commie nations who SHOULD know better, cheer all of this crap right on!!! Ass long ass we can pussy-grab "the enemy", bigger Government Almighty is just fine and dandy! Those enemies ("The Dastardly Libs") will NEVER think of pussy-grabbing us right back, anyway!!! While using the STUPID new pussy-grabbing laws that we pass, of course!!! (My turn today; theirs tomorrow. How's that shit working for you?)
You can force a common carrier to carry goods it might otherwise not want to carry, within limits. (Inherently dangerous items.) But you can't force a private common carrier to promote speech it doesn't like or keep it from promoting speech it does. That is precisely what the First Amendment is about.
Yes, you can, and it's done every day. Your phone company can't cut of your service because you discuss Communism over your phone. The Postal Service can't deny you a PO box because you're a Republican. Big Social Media is not being asked to "promote" anything—just to allow it without discrimination.
Has shit EVER occurred to your tiny near-invisible brain that there is NO chance that Ma Bell will be boycotted, because they heard you admiring Hitler or Stalin on a private line, and therefore, some idiots will think that Ma Bell adores Hitler and Stalin?
And… PREPARE your tiny brain now… SOME people just MIGHT boycott Reason.com or FacePoooo because Reason.com or FacePoooo did NOT take down your Adolf-Adoring and Hitler-Humping posts!!! Hello, SOME messages are viewable by a wide audience, and SOME are NOT!!! IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE!!!! HELLO?!?!!
You really need to chill out if you want anyone to take you seriously.
Twat is shit that I wrote that is SNOT true? WHY does stupid deserve respect?
But you can’t force a private common carrier to promote speech it doesn’t like or keep it from promoting speech it does.
We most certainly can: phone companies, ISPs are already prohibited from discriminating based on content.
That is precisely what the First Amendment is about.
No, it is not. For starters, the 1A was about restrictions on the federal government, not state governments.
Furthermore, you have to decide: either everything published on Google/Facebook is corporate speech, in which case those companies ought to be responsible for any legal consequences attached to it, or it is someone else’s speech, in which case they don’t get to censor it. You can’t have it both ways, claiming it is not your speech for the purposes of liability, but then claiming it is your speech for the purposes of the 1A.
"You can’t have it both ways..."
'Cause I said so? Power pig much lately?
"Publisher. Platform. Pick one." ... 'Cause Power Pig said so!
Your large and ugly punishment boner is showing!!! Be decent, and COVER UP, will ya?!?!?
If you want to love animals, pamper your pets. If you love to eat meat, eat meat. Pick one, ONLY one!
You either love animals, or you eat meat… You can NOT do both! All pet owners who eat meat? Their pets will be slaughtered and their pet-meat distributed to the poor! Because I and 51% of the voters said so! And because we are power pigs, and LOOOOOVE to punish people!
It’s hard to take any article seriously when it says conservatives aren’t being silenced more often than liberals on social media.
But that aside, the issue seems pretty simple to me. Much more simple than the legal arguments are making it. Either the speech belongs to the platform, or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, then they are common carriers, they shouldn’t be allowed to censor people, and they should have section 230 protections (although those shouldn’t even be needed).
If the platforms are not neutral, if the speech belongs to the platform, then sure, they can censor whoever the hell they want to, as much as they want to. But then they also can’t enjoy 230 protections. They own the speech, that means they are responsible for it.
"But then they also can’t enjoy 230 protections."
Why not? Because authoritarian busy-body said so!
I hear this shit all of the time, and no matter HOW often it is repeated, it is STILL a power pig thing to say!
The Association of Catholic Nuns Who Garden-Tend, if it sets up a chat group for discussing their hobby, should be forced to accept pro-abortion, anti-Catholic-nuns rants, on their internet forum? What happened to private property rights, and the right to freely associate, or not associate?
"Publisher. Platform. Pick one." ... 'Cause Power Pig said so!
Your large and ugly punishment boner is showing!!! Be decent, and COVER UP, will ya?!?!?
If you want to love animals, pamper your pets. If you love to eat meat, eat meat. Pick one, ONLY one!
You either love animals, or you eat meat… You can NOT do both! All pet owners who eat meat? Their pets will be slaughtered and their pet-meat distributed to the poor! Because I and 51% of the voters said so! And because we are power pigs, and LOOOOOVE to punish people!
“Why should sites that curate content be any different?”
To “curate content” is just to pick and choose. News reporters (of all kinds, and publishers of letters to the editor) do it all day every day. Shall we sue ALL of their socks off, for selectively reporting what OTHER people said?
But aren't these private companies that can do what they want - including cooperating with government to suppress disfavored speech?
I read you post. Now WHO is it who is suppressing your disfavored speech?
PS, Go-Daddy will host your speech, too, for a reasonable price, as they do mine. They don't suppress my speech at ALL. I do have to pay them some MONEY, though! THEN I have some REAL rights! I can ask for my money back! Here at Reason.com comments, if they take your post down, you can ask for your $0,000,000.00 back!
Wow, very interesting dance around the fringes of truth. I must admit, there are several powerful truths started in article, which I never thought would be published in a leftist production; especially in light of the last few years:
"First Amendment means the government can't make you associate with speech you don't want to associate with.". I, as most people, whole heatedly agree with that. Interesting that in many liberal jurisdictions that currently it is impossible for parents to not have their children, young, young children, be exposed to the gay agenda in elementary school. All across the country, in all branches of the federal government currently, it is mandated that all federal employees or contractors succome to and admit their belief in the current "woke" garbage going around.
"The First Amendment doesn't just prohibit government authorities from censoring speech but also from compelling speech."
BRAVO! Even a liberal can hit upon a profound, fundamental truth of the United States of America. Even though that very sentence is antithema to deliver agenda being shoved down America's throat the last 3 years. I cannot believe the number of times in last 3 years I have heard a Biden official (and endlessly repeated by left wing media,) make the claim that "the future of.. democracy/America/freedom/LIFE itself.. depends on the government being able to censor speech! (Of course it is only conservative ideas that require censorship!) Censoring speech by having justice department agencies and the White House coercing with the same social media companies to suppress anything that didn't fit their agenda. Having anybody, who dared to speak any of the inconvenient Truth about the gene therapy that they were calling an mRNA based vaccine, arrested prosecuted, after being fired and stripped of professional licenses, sure sounds like censorship. Heck they even tried to create a new federal government agency to decide what should be censored and what shouldn't. That sure sounds like an attempted censorship. There are currently laws in place all across this country, that provide very hefty penalties for not spouting out the required compelled speech of the current federal regime. It is legally mandated through laws, and executive orders, that everybody in this country be required to continually use made up words, or face severe civil penalties of huge fine, loss of employment, inability to work for any aspect of the federal government, many have been arrested and criminally prosecuted. For not folding and repeating the required compelled speech. The required use of made up words as pronouns, along with the required agreement that a man in a dress is a woman indistinguishable from a genetic female, is all nothing more than compelled speech from the Federal government.
Finally, let's look at the artfully misdirected presentation of article 230:
"Section 230, a federal communications law that protects social media platforms from some liability for the speech of their users."
230 divides social media, really any online service, into two distinct groups. Publishers, and hosts. Section 230 provides legal indemnification to hosting services for posts made by their users. So if some troll out there managed to get a post on a hosting service exalting, for example, all the great work that Adolf Hitler did, or got a few pedophile pictures posted, the hosting service could not be held liable for that. However, publishers are legally liable for everything posted on their service. Publishers are who you seem to be describing in your article as those that get to pick and choose what is shown on their websites and what is restricted or censored. And that is the real issue that current social media Giants want to have the protections of hosting services, well exerting control over all content as a publisher. There are some types of speech that are illegal to use. Simple fact. If a moron in his mom's basement posts those types of things on a hosting site, the owners of said site cannot be sued or prosecuted. Published, such as Reason, can be sued and prosecuted for posting the same things. Pretty clear cut and unambiguous. Facebook needs to decide which one it is. Control everything posted and have potential liability for said posts, or be a hosting service and free from liability. But cannot any longer be allowed to be both.
Much as the Left needs to do. I know they are scared silly of next election. The last 3 years have shown the right what can be gotten away with by government, and how to get away with it. Don't let any opposing words be spoken, arrest, fine, disparage any who dare to so speak, and loudly proclaim what a great favor you are doing to the unwashed masses.
You can’t have your cake, and eat it too. Either you are a common carrier with exemptions from prosecution for speech made over your platforms (woodchippers, etc.), without any censorship because all viewpoints are treated equally, or else you are a publisher responsible for every word uttered on your platform, including the comments section. There is no curate’s egg solution. You can be hot, or you can be cold, but if you are lukewarm you will be spat out.
"Publisher. Platform. Pick one." ... 'Cause Power Pig said so!
Your large and ugly punishment boner is showing!!! Be decent, and COVER UP, will ya?!?!?
If you want to love animals, pamper your pets. If you love to eat meat, eat meat. Pick one, ONLY one!
You either love animals, or you eat meat… You can NOT do both! All pet owners who eat meat? Their pets will be slaughtered and their pet-meat distributed to the poor! Because I and 51% of the voters said so! And because we are power pigs, and LOOOOOVE to punish people!
“Why should sites that curate content be any different?”
To “curate content” is just to pick and choose. News reporters (of all kinds, and publishers of letters to the editor) do it all day every day. Shall we sue ALL of their socks off, for selectively reporting what OTHER people said?
It can't force a baker to make a pro–gay marriage cake
Seriously? Have you called Colorado and told them that?
social media platforms disproportionately silence conservatives—a contention not borne out by evidence.
Well, only so long as you ignore the huge paper trail of Democrat politicians, political offices, political operatives, and loyal voters demanding that they do. Which they then did.
Bakers are forced to make pro–gay marriage cakes... And so does that then justify the mobs (of Trumpanzees, Bidenpanzees, 51% of the voters, or twatever) taking over cunt-troll of PRIVATELY OWNED web sites?
Sounds like whataboutism to me!
Butt, whatabout that them thar whatabouts? Whatabout Hillary? Whatabout OJ Simpson?
How many brain cells does it take to run a socio-political simulation on the following:
Judge and Jury: “Murderer, we find you guilty of murder! 20 years in the hoosegow for YOU! Now OFF with ye!”
Murderer: “But OJ Simpson got off for murder, why not me? We’re all equal, and need to be treated likewise-equal!”
Judge and Jury: “Oh, yes, sure, we forgot about that! You’re free to go! Have a good life, and try not to murder too many MORE people, please! Goodbye!”
Now WHERE does this line of thinking and acting lead to? Think REALLY-REALLY HARD now, please! What ABOUT OJ Simpson, now? Can we make progress towards peace & justice in this fashion?
(Ass for me, I think we should have PUT THE SQUEEZE on OJ!)
platforms disproportionately silence conservatives—a contention not borne out by evidence. But even if true
HAHAHA.... Funny how all that undeniable evidence (literally presented by Reason itself) disappeared over-night. I guess the "But even if true" covers-up for the blatant lie.
Republicans would be very wise to properly identify their problem on this subject. IT IS DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS and the white house doing this. There is massive and undeniable written and signed statements of it.
It's not going to do any good to try and legislate the 3rd party against that Nazi-Empire. The Nazi-Empire needs to be impeached for their relentless attack on the USA. It doesn't matter if the people elected Al'Capone. Part of what makes the USA great is a Supreme Law that requires 3/4 majority and State Ratification for Hitler-wannabes to practice UN-Constitutional control.
THAT IS WHERE BUSINESS NEEDS TO BE TAKEN CARE OF.
The First Amendment doesn't just prohibit government authorities from censoring speech but also from compelling speech.
Nobody is compelling Google or Facebook to "speak". Those companies are simply providing a technical service (web service, software) and TX/FL are forcing them to do so in a politically neutral way. That's no different from forcing phone companies not to discriminate based on the content of phone conversations.
Texas and Florida Want the Supreme Court To Bless Their Unconstitutional Social Media Laws
Pro tip: it's "unconstitutional" only if SCOTUS says it is.
I agree.
When the giant social media companies own the public square, they have a constitutional duty to keep their nose out of the conversations. If they can't do that then their monopoly should be abolished.
Volokh on this: https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/27/supreme-court-seems-likely-to-strike-down-florida-and-texas-social-media-laws/
"Texas Gov. Greg Abbott justified the law by saying social media platforms disproportionately silence conservatives—a contention not borne out by evidence."
ENB, would you please expand on this statement? It seems pretty clear to me that social media does indeed silence conservatives. During my brief, horrible foray into Reddit I was preemptively banned from many subReddits after posting very simple, conservative statements about cultural issues. Maybe Reddit (shudder) is a poor example?
The Twitter Files example is more persuasive than my anecdote.
Your simple "not borne out by the evidence" statement is hollow.
For your delectation:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5b6df958f8370af3217d4178/t/6011e68dec2c7013d3caf3cb/1611785871154/NYU+False+Accusation+report_FINAL.pdf
https://itif.org/publications/2023/10/26/the-facts-behind-allegations-of-political-bias-on-social-media/
Still, even if it were true, the Texas/Florida position, supported by right-wing posters here, is that because some private media companies are biased against conservatives, the state has the right to compel their speech to prevent bias.
If California tried a similar stunt against a right-wing social media company, you lot would be screaming - and rightly so.
Section 230 is to protect low-level signal carriers from shouldering responsibility for the content of messages they're not even reading. That means *zero* moderation.
As soon as a platform even looks at the content it is conveying, it ceases to be a utility (e.g. telephone) and then becomes a publisher. It gains the power to filter according to its own standards, but it must also own up to and take responsibility for its filtering (and be regulated accordingly... if such regulation can be justified).
So keep section 230, but be very careful about who qualifies.