Hawaii's Supreme Court Insists There Is No Individual Right to Arms
Rejecting a challenge to the state's strict gun laws, the court is openly contemptuous of Second Amendment precedents.

In the landmark 2008 case District of Columbia v. Heller, the U.S. Supreme Court explicitly recognized that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to arms. It reaffirmed that conclusion two years later in McDonald v. Chicago, which applied the Second Amendment to the states via the 14th Amendment. And in the 2022 case New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen, the Court held that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" extends beyond the home.
The Hawaii Supreme Court thinks all of those cases were wrongly decided. In a ruling issued on Wednesday, the court sides with the Heller dissenters by embracing the view that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms"—unlike "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" (protected by the First Amendment), "the right of the people" to be secure from "unreasonable searches and seizures" (protected by the Fourth Amendment), and the unspecified rights "retained by the people" under the Ninth Amendment—does not refer to an individual right. Rather, the Hawaii Supreme Court says, the Second Amendment involves a "collective right" that is relevant only in the context of militia service.
The court's unanimous decision in State v. Wilson, which rejects a challenge to Hawaii's highly restrictive gun regulations, is openly contemptuous of the U.S. Supreme Court's reasoning in debunking that "collective right" interpretation. The framers of the Second Amendment, the opinion says, aimed to prevent the national government from disarming state militias; they gave no thought to "someone packing a musket to the wigmaker just in case."
The pretext for this assault on Heller and its progeny was that the case required the Hawaii Supreme Court to interpret Article I, Section 17 of the state constitution, which is essentially identical to the Second Amendment. But the case also required the court to apply the Second Amendment as elucidated by Heller, McDonald, and Bruen, which the court in effect refused to do. Given the opinion's open rebellion against those precedents and the fundamental right to armed self-defense, Second Amendment attorney Kostas Moros remarks, it "sounds like the Hawaii Supreme Court doesn't even want to be a part of the United States."
The case involves Christopher Wilson, who was arrested in December 2017 for publicly carrying a .22-caliber pistol in his "front waist band." Wilson said he was carrying the gun for self-protection while hiking. Maui prosecutors charged him with three firearm offenses.
Section 134-25 of the Hawaii Revised Statutes requires that "all firearms" be "confined to the possessor's place of business, residence, or sojourn." It allows only three exceptions: for "unloaded firearms in an enclosed container" under specified circumstances, for hunting or target shooting, and for a gun owner who has a license to carry, which historically has been essentially impossible to obtain. Section 134-27 applies the same restrictions to ammunition, and Section 134-2 requires a permit to "acquire the ownership of a firearm."
Wilson sought dismissal of the counts under the first two laws, arguing that "prosecuting him for possessing a firearm for self-defense purposes outside his home violated his right to bear arms" under the Second Amendment and the Hawaii Constitution's corresponding provision. The trial court initially rejected that motion. But after Bruen clarified the constitutional test for gun control laws, Circuit Court Judge Kirstin Hamman dismissed the charges with prejudice.
Under Bruen, Hamman noted, the Second Amendment guarantees a right to carry guns in public for self-defense. She concluded that the state had failed to meet the burden imposed by Bruen, which requires the government to show that a gun law is "consistent with the Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation." In practice, she noted, Hawaii's restrictions on gun possession made "no exceptions for carrying firearms outside the home for self-defense purposes."
Hawaii's attorney general asked Hamman to reconsider, arguing that Bruen "does not stop states from requiring a license before bringing a firearm to a public place." After Hamman rejected the state's motion, it appealed to the Hawaii Supreme Court.
"The text and purpose of the Hawaiʻi Constitution, and Hawaiʻi's historical tradition of firearm regulation, do not support a constitutional right to carry deadly weapons in public," Justice Todd Eddins writes in the court's opinion. And he goes further, saying "conventional interpretive modalities and Hawaiʻi's historical tradition of firearm regulation rule out an individual right to keep and bear arms under the Hawaiʻi Constitution." As the court sees it, Article I, Section 17, which was adopted in 1950 and mirrors the wording of the Second Amendment, imposes no restrictions on gun control in Hawaii because it does not recognize an individual right.
In reaching that conclusion, Eddins heaps scorn on the U.S. Supreme Court's Second Amendment precedents. "Until Heller, the Supreme Court had never ruled that the Second Amendment afforded an individual right to keep and bear arms," he writes. "Heller flipped the nation's textual and historical understanding of the Second Amendment. The majority insisted there was 'no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms.'"
In Eddins' telling, that position, which scholars by that point were describing as the "standard model" based on research that Heller described at length, had no historical basis. "History by historians quickly debunked Heller's history," Eddins declares. "In the Second Amendment cases, the Court distorts and cherry-picks historical evidence. It shrinks, alters, and discards historical facts that don't fit."
Bruen, Eddins says, added insult to injury. "Bruen unravels durable law," he writes. "No longer are there the levels of scrutiny and public safety balancing tests long-used by our nation's courts to evaluate firearms laws."
Bruen explicitly rejected those "public safety balancing tests" because lower courts had used them to uphold pretty much any gun regulation that came their way. When judges evaluate a law's constitutionality by weighing the burdens it imposes against its putative benefits, their analysis easily becomes a cover for their personal policy preferences. But for Eddins and his colleagues, that is a feature, not a bug, because they do not think the Second Amendment imposes any restrictions on gun control legislation.
In Bruen, Eddins complains, "the Court ad-libs a 'history-only' standard." Screw history, he says:
Bruen's command to find an old-days "analogue" undercuts the other branches' responsibility—at the federal, state, and local levels—to preserve public order and solve today's problems. And it downplays human beings' aptitude for technological advancement.
Time-traveling to 1791 or 1868 to collar how a state regulates lethal weapons—per the Constitution's democratic design—is a dangerous way to look at the federal constitution. The Constitution is not a "suicide pact."
We believe it is a misplaced view to think that today's public safety laws must look like laws passed long ago. Smoothbore, muzzle-loaded, and powder-and-ramrod muskets were not exactly useful to colonial era mass murderers. And life is a bit different now, in a nation with a lot more people, stretching to islands in the Pacific Ocean….
As the world turns, it makes no sense for contemporary society to pledge allegiance to the founding era's culture, realities, laws, and understanding of the Constitution. "The thing about the old days, they the old days."
Which respected jurist or scholar made that last observation? Eddins is quoting Slim Charles, a fictional drug gang enforcer in The Wire, which is a great TV show but not necessarily the best guide for judges charged with protecting the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
Eddins obviously does not credit the Supreme Court's reading of history. But even if it were correct, Eddins argues, modern-day courts should not be bound by "the founding era's…understanding of the Constitution." Why? Because "the Constitution is not a 'suicide pact.'"
Tellingly, that phrase comes from the 1949 case Terminiello v. Chicago, in which the Supreme Court overturned a "breach of peace" conviction based on an inflammatory speech that provoked a hostile response. Justice Robert H. Jackson dissented, perceiving a danger that "if the Court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact." As Jackson saw it, freedom of speech must give way to considerations of public order. Eddins seems to take the same view of civil liberties generally.
Life surely is "a bit different now" than it was when the Bill of Rights was written or when the 14th Amendment made it binding on state and local governments. But that does not mean courts cannot apply the principles it reflects to modern conditions. The Framers did not have radio, TV, or the internet. Courts nevertheless have an obligation to protect freedom of speech and freedom of the press in those new contexts.
Whatever the practical problems with applying the Bruen test, it at least imposes some constraints on judges who otherwise might be inclined to compromise constitutional rights in the name of public safety. The analogical reasoning it requires, which entails asking "how" and "why" firearms were regulated and whether those precedents are "relevantly similar" to contemporary laws, seeks to prevent legislators from violating the right to arms as it was historically understood.
From Eddins' perspective, that whole exercise is pointless because everyone knows that history was invented by an ideologically motivated Supreme Court. And in any case, he worries, applying old-timey notions of limited government to contemporary policies is highly inconvenient for legislators who are only trying to do what they think best serves the public interest.
"The United States Supreme Court disables the states' responsibility to protect public safety, reduce gun violence, and safeguard peaceful public movement," Eddins writes. "A government by the people works."
Eddins complains that "Bruen snubs federalism principles." By the same reasoning, so does any constraint that the Constitution imposes on state and local governments. Our federalist system leaves states with a broad "police power" that was not granted to the national government. That does not mean states are free to censor newspapers, ban churches, allow searches without probable cause, or throw people in prison without due process. But Eddins perceives a violation of "federalism principles" in the context of Second Amendment rights because he supports gun control and, not incidentally, insists those rights do not exist.
Despite his dismissal of Bruen's historical approach, Eddins delves into Hawaii's long record of tight weapon regulation, going back to restrictions imposed by King Kamehameha III in 1833. The king "promulgated a law prohibiting 'any person or persons' on shore from possessing a weapon, including any 'knife, sword-cane, or any other dangerous weapon,'" Eddins notes. "Violators were subject to arrest and punishment by fine or lashings."
What do a king's edicts have to do with the authority of a democratically elected, constitutionally constrained government? Nothing whatsoever, except that the latter is designed to counter the tyrannical tendencies of the former. But for Eddins, that 1833 decree reflects "the Aloha Spirit," which "inspires constitutional interpretation." When the Hawaii Supreme Court "exercises 'power on behalf of the people and in fulfillment of [our] responsibilities, obligations, and service to the people,'" he explains, it "may contemplate and reside with the life force and give consideration to the 'Aloha Spirit.'" And that spirit, Eddins declares, "clashes with a federally-mandated lifestyle that lets citizens walk around with deadly weapons during day-to-day activities."
Whatever you make of Eddins' communion with the Aloha Spirit, it does not give Hawaii a license to violate constitutional rights recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court. Coming back to earth, Eddins ostensibly acknowledges that the Court's constitutional rulings, however ignorant and wrongheaded he might consider them, are binding on state courts. "Still," he says, "the United States Supreme Court does not strip states of all sovereignty to pass traditional police power laws designed to protect people."
Hawaii's laws "allow a person to carry a handgun for self-defense outside the home if they have a license," Eddins notes. Never mind whether it is possible in practice to obtain or use that license.
After Bruen invalidated state laws that require residents to demonstrate a "special need" before they are allowed to exercise the right to bear arms, Hawaii legislators changed the criteria for a carry permit. The law now says "the chief of police of a county shall grant a license" to carry a concealed handgun (emphasis added) when the applicant is legally allowed to own guns and "is not found to be lacking the essential character or temperament necessary to be entrusted with a firearm."
Like several other states that were forced to change their rules for granting carry permits, however, Hawaii imposed new restrictions on their use, declaring a wide range of public places to be "sensitive locations" where guns are prohibited. Last August, a federal judge temporarily barred the state from enforcing several of those new gun-free zones. But those restrictions were not at issue in Wilson's case, and the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that he did not have standing to challenge the state's criteria for carry permits because he had not applied for one. Even if he had, it seems safe to assume that the court would have deemed Hawaii's obstacles to carrying guns for self-defense consistent with the Aloha Spirit, which evidently trumps whatever the nation's highest court says about the Second Amendment.
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They're wrong. Full stop.
They are completely right about the 2nd amendment.
They are wrong about the 14th.
And I think it’s relevant that Hawaii has a fundamentally different historical context than most other states.
Actually, the Hawaii Supreme Court was 100% WRONG. And how do I know, you ask? History, which is easy to find, and for those who detest the 2A, easy to ignore. Case in point.
Since the Bill of Rights of the Constitution originally guaranteed that the federal government had zero jurisdiction over the rights enumerated therein, and since the 2A is most definitely a right enumerated, the states, at the time were free to do just about anything they desired regarding firearms.
"THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution." Preamble of the Bill of Rights
To whom are those "declaratory and restrictive clauses" directed?
And what does the phrase, "...in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers..." mean in the context?
The states governments were not affected by the BoR at all originally, only the newly created federal government. The courts recognized this fairly early in the history of this nation. Then, in 1867, the 14A was ratified. Ignored by the Supreme Court, until about 1921, when those rights enumerated were started to be incorporated to the states. It took until 2010 for the court to incorporate the 2A to the states.
In 1857, and odious case was decided, in which HOW rights work for the citizens was first written by the Supreme Court.
"NOR CAN CONGRESS DENY TO THE PEOPLE THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, nor the right to trial by jury, nor compel any one to be a witness against himself in a criminal proceeding.... The POWERS OVER PERSON AND PROPERTY OF WHICH WE SPEAK ARE NOT ONLY NOT GRANTED TO CONGRESS, BUT ARE IN EXPRESS TERMS DENIED, AND THEY ARE FORBIDDEN TO EXERCISE THEM." Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 417, 450-451 (1857).
Congress is FORBIDDEN by the Bill of Rights to exercise ANY powers concerning ARMS, the right to a trial by jury, or to testify against oneself. Kind of sounds like the entire document spells out restrictions on the federal government.
Of course, that was not the only case. And that case spells out how the Feds are to act in response to violation of the Bill of Rights, but seems to exempt the states. And was the first major example of the SCOTUS ignoring the Bill of Rights.
"The right there specified is that of "bearing arms for a lawful purpose." This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed; but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress." U.S. v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875).
So, the right is not granted by the Constitution.
The right exists independent of the Constitution.
The right is a restriction on the power of the federal government.
This decision is cited in:
Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886).
Miller v. Texas, 153 U.S. 535 (1894).
District of Columbia Et al. v. Heller
So, the feds, according to several Supreme Court cases, are 100% barred from any interference regarding arms of the citizens. And the States are as well, ever since 2010, when the McDonald case was decided. Where is the Article 5 Amendment which altered that directive of the Constitution? It seems it doesn't exist.
Even more historical facts can be found. For instance, who was the Militia?
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people."
---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.
And an even more succinct quote from another founding father.
"The whole of that Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals...[I]t establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of."
---Albert Gallatin to Alexander Addison, Oct 7, 1789, MS. in N.Y. Hist. Soc.-A.G. Papers, 2.
And let us not forget a luminary as important to our history as Thomas Jefferson.
"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776.
You are welcome.
I magnanimously volunteer for the position of Colonial Governor of Hawaii. I'll teach those bastards respect for the Constitution.
If we're going to respect their special historical context, shouldn't they go back to being ruled by a hereditary monarchy?
Maybe get rid of all the airports and go back to using nothing but hand-paddled canoes to travel from island to island?
Well done. Unfortunately, the majority of people now think that the Constitution gives them rights. It does not. It protects those right that a free people already have.
Exactly. The Bill of Rights grants NO RIGHTS. Instead, the Bill of Rights simply tells what was at the time, the new government what that government cannot and shall not have any power to regulate or impede the States or People from exercising. And thank you.
Some might even go further and claim that the Bill of Rights not only prohibits the Government from infringing, but that the Constitution as a whole obligates the Government to protect those rights from infringement.
For all the articles I've read here about how states have used byzantine rules and regulations designed to stymie legal abortion or access to it, I'm surprised I haven't yet seen a similar deep dive on what Washington is doing to restrict gun ownership.
Spin off Hawaii.
The problem will solve itself.
I'm surprised the island hasn't capsized to port what with all that leftist spittle they've been spewing.
Or… keep Hawaii, and get rid of the leftists.
Hawaii is a complicated place with a complicated history, but the long and short of it is that it's part of America because a combination of American plantation owners and navy admirals decided they wanted it to be and if they hadn't, for better or for worse, everyone on the island would be speaking Japanese today. The plantations don't matter so much now that global trade in tropical produce is so cheap, but the navy base there is more important than ever with the rise of China's pacific ambitions.
everyone on the island would be speaking Japanese today
Potential disagreement. Plausible alternate history: Everyone on the island today speaks English. No one who lives there has any ancestors who lived there prior to Aug. 6, 1945.
In 1897, the Japanese warship Naniwa showed up in Honolulu carrying a letter protesting Hawaii’s rejection of more Japanese immigrants, and demanding that Hawaii vindicate several rights for Japanese already on the island, including the right to vote. The Japanese threatened “the strong arm and the strong vessels “ if Hawaii did not comply.
Not caring for belligerent Japanese that close to the continental U.S., annexation seemed the best thing for both the U.S. and Hawaii.
See Sean A. Mirski’s “We May Dominate the World” for more.
Right. The foregoing of any annexation of Hawaii (as a presumption) in the 19th century doesn't significantly alter its military importance or deter the course of the 20th and, if anything, it raises its importance and motivates the slumbering giant to dispense fresh doses of Cesium 137 more prejudicially.
That the US would take Hawaii in WW2 (and keep it) is a plausible scenario, but they wouldn't have wiped every Japanese person off the island in doing so any more than they did in Okinawa. You'd probably see the majority of people in 2024 still speaking Japanese as a secondary, if not primary language. Territories we took from Mexico a lot earlier than that still harbor enormous numbers of Spanish speaking people hundreds of years later. Short of genociding a population you don't get that kind of demographic or cultural change in 80 years, and the US doesn't do genocide... but Imperial Japan did, a lot. I could absolutely see them wiping out the native Hawaiians.
You know Hiroshima and Nagasaki, together, were near 2X the population of HI in 1945, right?
You know that vastly larger numbers of Japanese people were spread out over the islands of Nippon, China, and the S. Pacific and that only a moron would call nuking Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or a hypothetically occupied, if not cleansed, HI a genocide, right?
As important as Okinawa was, and we absolutely killed more than 100K of them on their own soil, and HI was astronomically more strategically important. More important to the point that it inverts the "Island Hopping to attrition and administering the coup de grace" narrative or plan.
The idea that the routing would be any less thorough or motivated than the expulsion from the Philipines or China is laughable. If anyone spoke Japanese on the island in the aftermath, it would be the few Japanese-Americans who made their way there after internment and they would most likely only do so inside their own homes. Right, we absolutely wouldn't march anyone to death. We absolutely would make sure everyone on the island spoke English. Especially if somebody else had already wiped out the natives.
Almost as many Japanese civilians committed suicide on Saipan and Okinawa as Japanese soldiers were killed.
You're kidding?
But most of the people on Hawaii after the Japanese seize it in alternate WWII are Japanese soldiers. We'd probably clean them off, same as we did in the Philippines.
Honestly, having lived in Hawaii as a kid, I can't think of anything they deserve more than to have been subject to the tender mercies of the Imperial Japanese.
Good point. We will be fine without them but they will suffer without us.
Offer the Chinese a swap. We get Taiwan and they get Hawaii. We get Taiwan Semiconductor and they get Mazie Hirono.
That would provoke WW3. I hate communists, but I’m not that cruel.
I doubt the CCP would be stupid enough to allow Hirono to occupy any position of authority.
HI to SCOTUS: FYTY; now let's see you do something about it.
Congress has cut off federal highway funding for a lot less.
(55 mph speed limit, 21-year-old drinking age, etc.)
I doubt Hawaii has enough roads to make that much of a threat.
Saying the Constitution is "not a suicide pact" is saying it is not the basic law of the land and the Court's are oligarchs who are unconstrained by anything other than their own will to power.
And then Justice Eddins goes all weird breaking the Establishment Clause by making an appeal to some sort of neo-pagan deity to justify that Hawaii is special and his consultation of this spirit tells him he is right, damn SCOTUS's eyes!
?: At what point do we deem this a "constitutional crisis?"
If a court any where in the US or it's territories can just flip off the "supreme court of the land," then what the hell do we have?
An excuse to revert them to territorial status and revoke their representation in Congress and the Electoral College?
But what would Maisie do for a living? She is too stupid to be a WalMart greeter.
It sounds Insurrection-y
Sure does. Sounds like the 14th Amendment needs to apply to the Senators and Represebtatives of Hawaii. Not to mention their Federal Courts. After all, the slightest whiff of insurection is all you need to justify invoking the 14th.
SCOTUS should abolish that court.
legs pending ...
OK, so secession is not allowed, how do we kick a state out?
Oh, wait. An island. Totally dependent on air and sea transportation.
If only we had a navy that could sail warships as well as do drag queens.
if we all stand on the west side it might ... capsize
Maybe we should just build a larger military base on it, like Guam.
No way. Might tip over.
Why would you let the Democrats have anything? Just get rid of them.
OK, so secession is not allowed, how do we kick a state out?
Hmm.... HI for Taiwan swap. [strokes chin]
Revoke their statehood, bust them down to federal territory status.
That's also my solution for when California eventually goes totally bankrupt: bust them down to federal territory status, readmit to the Union in pieces.
There is no more a provision in The Constitution or law to revoke a statehood than there is to succeed. It's just not a thing. What the government could do is declare the State Government and Courts of Hawaii no longer are a Republican form of governance and take over until a new government was formed. This was done in several southern states.
So, where in the constitution is secession not allowed?
I guess it depends on who is commander in chief of the armed forces.
Lincoln read the lack of an out clause to mean they were insurectionists. There was no law, just the force of arms and writing his own press releases.
Seems to me anyone wants out they should be allowed.
But I'm not president.
Just sell the island back to the Royal Family. I think there is still a Hawaiian Royal Family. If they don't like liberty let them be Royal subjects under a Polynesian Potentate.
Arrogant prick judges. This would be a good case to revive the Privileges and Immunities clause. Down with the Slaughterhouse cases! Make states recognize and protect federal constitutional rights.
Or just send the judges to a slaughterhouse.
Alan Gura tried that when "Heller" was before the SCOTUS. Scalia tried to humiliate him for it. Bringing back the "Privileges or Immunities Clause" would solve a lot of problems.
Exact wording ... "the right of the *people* to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Sounds like a court loaded with [Na]tional So[zi]alist[s]. They don't even pretend to be Supreme Law upholders more like excusers for violating the Supreme law of the land.
In the long run the founding documents are simply ink on a page. We don't have a Constitution Man who bursts forth from the Liberty Bell to punch out politicians who pass laws that violate the constitution.
I saw a fantasy law peice by leftists where they claimed that if the Supreme Court won't rule that Trump can't run then will they not rule if the Democrats run Obama for a third term.
In the long run, short of armed rebellion or a collective head pulled out of ass for the majority of Americans what we do have is an oligarchy of judges. Both Republicans and Democrats argue that voters can't vote for a minor party as a protest because no matter how bad their candidate is the other candidate will get to appoint judges.
.
From the introduction to A patriot's history of the United States (2004):
Personal liberties in America are genuine because of the character of honest judges...who, for the most part, still make up the judiciary, and because of the personal integrity of large numbers of local, state, and national lawmakers.
Personal integrity.
Yeah, we're running awfully low on that quality.
The framers of the Second Amendment, the opinion says, aimed to prevent the national government from disarming state militias; they gave no thought to "someone packing a musket to the wigmaker just in case."
They are right. The Constitution was a big shift away from state militia to federal militia even though we ignore that enumerated power of Congress now. From:
every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of field pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage
to
[The Congress shall have power]...To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.
The 2A was about making sure that Congress couldn't choose to abdicate that militia and instead only fund a standing army. More significant was a clause from the end of 2A that disappeared - but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.
That clause disappeared because some states didn't accept conscientious objectors. But like everything else in the 2A, it is about the militia not individual self-defense. It doesn't turn the 2A into an individual amendment when that clause is removed.
Founders would NEVER have imagined that the 2A or any A could infringe a fundamental natural right of self-defense. Hell - the nightwatchmen was militia duty until rich folks decided that they wanted to control what the nightwatchmen did and what neighborhoods they patrolled by paying in cash rather than rendering service in labor.
How to say you've never read the Federalist Papers without saying you've never read the Federalist Papers.
and I'm pretty sure every lawyer has read the federalist papers and if they haven't then they are not qualified to be a judge
Pretty much. That was a long winded way to prove you have no idea what you are talking about.
And the militia was every adult male.
Not when marching to their own drummer.
The drummers were under 18.
Drummers are optional. How can you be this stupid?
God damn youre a full on leftist now. Don't even hide it.
They are right.
They are absolutely wrong. This has been debunked so many ways from Sunday, it's hardly worth replying to this.
JFree went full retard a while ago. I muted his senile ass a few weeks back.
Oh, yeah, the government was totally giving itself the right to bear arms with the 2A. The whole 'right of the people' part was just an 18th century typo.
JFC
The BOR restricts the government, not the people, except the 2A is the leftist mantra.
They are terrified of an armed citizenry.
The 2a is there to prohibit the feds from disarming the people. That doesn't mean it is an individual right.
That's like saying the government is expressly forbidden to arrest people for the content of their speech, but that doesn't mean people have a right to speak freely.
No it's not like that at all. Heller was interpreted as an individual right for the exclusive purpose imo of making sure that Heller would be the precedent for McDonald v Chicago. So the 2A would be incorporated against the states.
That particular precedent cannot happen with 2A interpreted as a restriction on the feds control of militia. Course with 2A interpreted as an individual right there is now no chance to EVER interpret the Constitution or the founders as preferring a militia to a standing army. For example using the emphasis on militia as a way of reversing imperial perma-intervention everywhere. And hell conservatives now WANT a standing army to be deployed inside the US and have never given a shit about tyranny. So it's all good innit.
Nonsense. The Supreme Court has already stated, as long ago as 1857, that the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights were restrictions on the Federal government, and that Congress had NO power to interfere with those rights. Take for example, the case of Dred Scott--an absolutely abhorrent decision in light of modern morality, but NEVER overturned--where the court unambiguously stated,
"NOR CAN CONGRESS DENY TO THE PEOPLE THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, nor the right to trial by jury, nor compel any one to be a witness against himself in a criminal proceeding.... The POWERS OVER PERSON AND PROPERTY OF WHICH WE SPEAK ARE NOT ONLY NOT GRANTED TO CONGRESS, BUT ARE IN EXPRESS TERMS DENIED, AND THEY ARE FORBIDDEN TO EXERCISE THEM." Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 417, 450-451 (1857).
Then, AFTER the Civil War, in 1875, the court also unambiguously stated, in another abhorrent case, never overturned;
"The right there specified is that of "bearing arms for a lawful purpose." This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed; but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress." U.S. v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875).
And in fact, Heller even cites Cruikshank in the decision, where they stated;
"As we said in United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553 (1876) , “[t]his is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed … .”
It seems as if you are creating a false narrative, for your own reasons, and so have simply not proven anything except a lack of understanding of the laws and SCOTUS decisions which are STILL appropriate and valid to all lower courts, and the SCOTUS itself.
Incorrect. There are copious quotes from the founding that show self defense and defense by the People against tyrannical government is the purpose of the Confederation of States, as well as the Constitution and Bill of Rights., especially from those who served with the courts.
Saint George Tucker (1752-1828) served as a colonel in the Virginia militia, was wounded in the Revolutionary War, was a law professor at William and Mary, and later was a justice on the Virginia Supreme Court from 1804 to 1811. He was also a friend of Thomas Jefferson. In 1803 he published a five-volume edition of Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England.
"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty .... The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction. In England, the people have been disarmed, generally, under the specious pretext of preserving the game: a never failing lure to bring over the landed aristocracy to support any measure, under that mask, though calculated for very different purposes. True it is, their bill of rights seems at first view to counteract this policy: but the right of bearing arms is confined to protestants, and the words suitable to their condition and degree, have been interpreted to authorize the prohibition of keeping a gun or other engine for the destruction of game, to any farmer, or inferior tradesman, or other person not qualified to kill game. So that not one man in five hundred can keep a gun in his house without being subject to a penalty."
In 1791 William Rawle was appointed as a United States Attorney for Pennsylvania by President George Washington, a post he held for more than eight years. He had also been George Washington's candidate for the nation's first attorney general, but Rawle declined the appointment.
"In the second article, it is declared, that a well regulated militia is necessary to a free state; a proposition from which few will dissent. Although in actual war, in the services of regular troops are confessedly more valuable; yet while peace prevails, and in the commencement of a war before a regular force can be raised, the militia form the palladium of the country. They are ready to repel invasion, to suppress insurrection, and preserve the good order and peace of government. That they should be well regulated, is judiciously added. A disorderly militia is disgraceful to itself, and dangerous not to the enemy, but to its own country. The duty of the state government is, to adopt such regulation as will tend to make good soldiers with the least interruptions of the ordinary and useful occupations of civil life. In this all the Union has a strong and visible interest."
"The corollary, from the first position, is that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give to congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretence by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both."
A few weeks ago I mentioned that with a weakening Fed, States will just start ignoring edicts from DC.
I for one, welcome our coming Balkanization...
#CALEXIT....
Just to use some Earth moving equipment, didn’t try again at Kohl’s all around the state and deposit them full of Democrats. Then pave over them.
The end.
Why would the Second Amendment even need the 14th Amendment to apply it to the states? It said, "Shall not be infringed", so it already applied to the states, unlike the 1st Amendment, which said "Congress shall pass no law" so it only applied to Congress until incorporation.
Until the 14th, the states successfully argued that the BoR constrained the federal government only. That allowed many states to deny blacks and other minorities the BoR protections...
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Until the 14th, the states successfully argued that the BoR constrained the federal government only…
Yep. The combination of Article V [“amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution“] and the Supremacy Clause in Article VI [“This Constitution… shall be the supreme law of the land…“] be damned
If you need the state's permission, it's a privilege, not a right...
And that is exactly how States like HI, CA, IL, and then usual scum want it. It’s for public safety and the children (including 20 year old gang bangers) after all.
20 year old gang bangers
They demand the streets be kept safe for Black criminals.
Well, you can't expect the colonized to fully embrace every obscure rule of the colonizers....
+1 So much for ignoring imaginary social constructs and embracing the unbridled prosperity of illegal immigrants.
The American Indian tribes saw North America’s GDP go up a lot too, with their open seaboard policies.
I wonder if anyone in these states trying to circumvent the Second Amendment and already established SCOTUS decisions realize that what they are ultimately doing will backfire. They will eventually lose probably most of the gun control measures they already have in place when SCOTUS once again reviews the matter.
Eh, all they gotta do is wait for Thomas to die, they'll appint another leftist judge and Roberts will flip
Basically they're saying “John Marshall has made his decision now let him enforce it.”
Well, they might want to dig up George Wallace and ask how that University of Alabama thing finally went down.
Local Boyz must still be pissed about all the heat Bud Light got.
As bad as it is, bear in mind this is over a .22 pistol, which may be deadly in the same way a rock is deadly. Lots of people have been killed by one, but it takes great skill or luck
John Hinckley Jr. came within a hair of killing Reagan and scrambled Brady's brain with a .22.
Hawaiian goverment workers? Isn't this the same group that said you don't need water to fight fire?
Second Amendment attorney Kostas Moros remarks, it "sounds like the Hawaii Supreme Court doesn't even want to be a part of the United States."
They don't. But what else can you expect from a bunch of incestuous cannibals?
2A: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Judge Rando: "Sorry, the Aloha Spirit says no guns for you!"
One time far in the past, King Wackamyteenydingdong decreed that people couldn’t make fun of his name, therefore the First Amendment means nothing today.
Thanks for the laugh.
"Out Hiking" doesn't count as "possessor's place of business, residence, or sojourn"?
Art. VI. This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States … shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
Like it or not, there it is, in print. I’m sure the Hawaii Supreme Court would be the first to scream for strict application of the incorporation doctrine for any leftie-approved idiocy, but in this case, no, they plan to ignore the SCOTUS.
There's no problem understanding Hawaii's courts.
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The word "people" actually means "militia."
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There is simply a typo in the US Bill of Rights.
TBF, the 'people' and 'militia' keys are right next to each other.
No problem at all! We were looking at Hawaii for a vacation spot. No thanks! Just like Colorado, NewYork and Kalifornia. I think any state that tramples the rights of citizens and feels they can override already decided decisions by the supreme Court is actually involved in tyrany. Time to boycott traveling to those places!
Feel free to pop on one of their many FB pages and let them know you won't be headed to Hawaii based on their stupidity!
https://www.facebook.com/ChamberOfCommerceHawaii/
"The Constitution is not a "suicide pact.""
Tell that to the South. Oh wait, it IS a suicide pact and you're not allowed to secede.
"As the world turns, it makes no sense for contemporary society to pledge allegiance to the founding era's culture, realities, laws, and understanding of the Constitution."
Can judges be disbarred for heinous speech like this? This is as un-American as it gets.
From the prosecution of Trump for victimless real estate reporting to the outrageous verdict in the Michael Mann-Mark Steyn defamation case ($1 million punitive for criticizing a climate alarmist) to this decision the entire U.S. "Justice" system is in final meltdown. It makes Idi Amin's justice system look fair and balanced.
There's something to be said for justice delivered at the end of a fork.
Stupid fucking hippies.
-jcr
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
meaning
(1) A free society need armed resistance from local population in case of tyranny, therefore (2) You have a right to own a gun.
That’s it. The second amendment (at minimum) says you can own a gun just in case your society isn’t “free”. Your right to bear arms isn’t limited to militia or conditioned on you joining one. YOU can have a gun as an insurance policy.
The nation was founded on rebellion. The founding fathers were enemies of the state and traitors as far as England was concerned. They saw the value of militia and privateers harassing supply lines, gathering intel, etc. Guerrilla warfare. “The well regulated" militia refers to discipline. If militia required government approval or licensing, it wouldn’t really be militia.
The founding forefathers (probably) predicted that radicals in the future would use their name to stage another “American revolution”, which the south did in the civil war. They also knew revolutions in the name of overthrowing tyranny often result in a another one. France went bankrupt funding the revolutionary war and that triggered the french revolution and the Napoleonic war, so they were right. They lived in volatile times.
Wrong. The right to self-defense is not contingent on the need for a militia at all. The amendment doesn't even presume to grant the right, it acknowledges it as already existing, cites ONE reason why it's important, and forbids the government from infringing it.
-jcr
I think Hawaii just needed to preface their opinion with "Heller, McDonald, & Bruen were egregiously wrong from the start" & everyone would be cool. This court forfeited any weight precedent or Scotus held. The long history of gun control in this country (Dodge City anyone?) and over 200 years of precedent not affirming an individual's right to carry a gun is good enough for me. The fact is we have historically illiterate, one might even day completely ignorant, justices pushing a political agenda unmoored from tradition, precedent, & history.
Fuck off, slaver.
-jcr
Linguistic experts have churned through historical materials, like the Corpus of Founding Era American English and the Corpus of Early Modern English, to get to the bottom of the Second Amendment’s key words. “Founding-era sources almost always use bear arms in an unambiguously military sense.” See Dennis Baron, Corpus Evidence Illuminates the Meaning of Bear Arms, 46 Hastings Const. L.Q. 509, 510 (2019). “Non-military uses of bear arms in reference to hunting or personal self-defense are not just rare, they are almost nonexistent.” Id. at 510-11; see also James C. Phillips & Josh Blackman, Corpus Linguistics and Heller, 56 Wake Forest L. Rev. 609, 674, (2021) (“The overwhelming majority of bear arms was the ‘collective/militia’ sense.”)
Sullum quoted a fair amount from the Hawaii decision. I wonder why he didn't include this?
Whenever anyone makes any mention of how the weapons of the late 18th century weren't "as useful to mass murderers" as modern semiautomatics as a justification for restricting legal carrying of firearms, I always wonder why they think that any "mass murderers" who aren't deterred by even a single homicide being a felony would take any kind of pause over facing a possible misdemeanor if they're caught carrying a prohibited weapon.
Do they also think that there's ever been an instance of a school shooter turning back and calling off their attack upon seeing the posted "Gun Free Zone" signs around the school?
This HAWAII Supreme Court Riling is outside the Courts Jurisdiction and Invalid and unenforceable The 2nd Amendment provides the right to Bear Arms to All No licence or Permit required and there is no Police Power or D.A power to enforce or prosecute known unlawful and invalid Laws! Regardless of any blah blah blah to the contrary (States claim to be better than gangsters it’s time to ACT LIKE IT!). LICENSING, FEES SELLING TRAING COURSES LICENSING TRAINING ORGANISATIONS ETC are very Profitable to GANSTA Police organisations & State Governments So IF ever even detained By Police DEMAND A LAWYER IMMEDIATELY and If Your innocent & wanna Stay that way Get A Lawyer that’s Good (preferably with proven win rate) LAWYERS are defenders of the People and People Shouldn’t have to Defend themselves from the State! That’s the Whole Point of the United States Constitution & ALL add-on amendment(s) Don’t let RUSSIA / CHINA or A certain middle eastern Profit from stamping on The Constitution or freedoms & Liberty!