Mom's Manslaughter Conviction for Her Son's School Shooting Sets a Dangerous Precedent
In some sense, the case seemed to hinge on what prosecutors wished the law said, not on what it actually says.

A jury on Tuesday convicted a Michigan woman on four counts of involuntary manslaughter in connection with the mass shooting her son executed at Oxford High School in November 2021. But while the defendant, Jennifer Crumbley, and her husband, James Crumbley, have been the subject of widespread scorn, her novel prosecution and his upcoming trial have raised questions about how far the state can reach to hold parents accountable for the actions of their children and what kind of precedent that sets.
Here, the prosecution posited the Crumbleys bore criminal responsibility for the murders committed by their son, Ethan, because they allegedly disregarded signs he was depressed and gifted him a gun for Christmas. But the evidence presented at trial painted a more complicated narrative. In some sense, the overall case seemed to hinge on what prosecutors wished the law said, not on what it actually says.
James Crumbley's trial is set for March; Jennifer Crumbley's sentencing will take place in April. They both face up to 60 years in prison.
Core to the state's case during Jennifer Crumbley's proceeding was the notion that Ethan had shown himself to be emotionally disturbed, and, instead of intervening, she left him to his own devices. Much was made of her extramarital affair and her devotion to her equestrian hobby; prosecutors wanted the jury to believe, one assumes, that she was more interested in riding horses and having sex with a man who wasn't her husband than she was in parenting her child.
But while she very well may have been a flawed parent—few serious people would argue adultery is a stand-up choice—testimony at trial made it far from clear that her son's murderous streak was predictable, much less that she "willfully disregard[ed]" it and could have prevented it via "ordinary care," the standard required by Michigan statute.
The state said Ethan told his mom via text that their house might be haunted; she testified she thought he was joking. More damning was a journal entry furnished by prosecutors where Ethan drew pictures of guns and wrote that "my parents won't listen to me about help or a therapist." Jennifer Crumbley, however, countered she was surprised to hear that, as she claims Ethan had not told her about a desire for therapy, and that she did not read his diary entries.
She was not the only one who was apparently caught off guard by Ethan's internal struggles. "I didn't think he could possibly be the shooter," testified Kristy Gibson-Marshall, an Oxford High School assistant principal, as the act constituted what she believed was a radical departure from his character. "It seemed so odd that it would be him." Superintendent Tim Throne echoed that: "At no time did counselors believe the student might harm others based on his behavior, responses, and demeanor," he testified, "which appeared calm."
Of course, even more central to the case is the gun itself, a 9 mm SIG Sauer SP2022 pistol, which James Crumbley purchased the day after Thanksgiving as an early Christmas present. It would prove to be an utterly disastrous choice, as Ethan would go on to use it the following Tuesday to execute four of his peers.
And yet, despite the fraught subject matter, and the absolute tragedy of those deaths, Michigan law still appeared inept to apply to the Crumbley parents. Michigan lawmakers have had the opportunity to pass "child access prevention" legislation authorizing criminal charges against adults "who intentionally or carelessly give minors unsupervised access to guns," noted Reason's Jacob Sullum in 2021, but they have on multiple occasions rejected the idea. And while the state has since enacted a "secure storage" law pertaining to safely securing firearms, it was not on the books at the time of the murders.
The Crumbleys, for their part, reportedly enjoyed going to the gun range as a family activity.
On the day of the shooting, a teacher discovered a drawing Ethan had made. On it was a gun and the words, "The thoughts won't stop. Help me" and "Blood everywhere." The Crumbleys were immediately summoned to his school; Ethan said he was devising a video game. Both parents have been intensely criticized for letting their son go back to class after that meeting—a decision that was greenlit by the school as well—after which Ethan would go on to commit murder.
But a closer examination of those troubling facts, too, is more complicated than the state would have it seem: The Crumbleys had specifically been told that their son should not be left by himself, and Ethan had just expressed to Throne, the superintendent, that the thought of missing homework assignments depressed him. With hindsight, listening to him was obviously the wrong choice. But I can understand why it was made, as parents, whether weak or adept, are not clairvoyant.
One of the more contorted parts of this outcome, however, has more to do with how the state approached Ethan, who was prosecuted as an adult and who thus received the maximum sentence Michigan allows: life in prison without the possibility of parole. "There is a logical contradiction in the state declaring Ethan Crumbley an adult—with full responsibility for his crime—while prosecuting his parents for gross negligence in child care," writes Megan K. Stack in an essay for The New York Times. "Ethan Crumbley was a child, or he wasn't. He was responsible for his actions, or his parents were. Can the state argue both positions at once? Prosecutors insist they can."
They can, and they did. But their success says less about the intellectual coherence of that approach and more about our desire to address every awful injustice with prison, no matter how much it may defy logic.
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Surely this miscarriage of justice will be reversed on appeal. Virtue signaling by a severely flawed government like Michigan is the height of irony. If the State of Michigan had displayed even the basic "ordinary care" of the citizens of Flint, for example, the water supply crisis would not have happened. Et cetera ...
Anything that uses the phrase "virtue signaling" is a sure signal of being either a bot or AI or both.
Ironically, your posts in this thread are a sure signal of you being an AI bot.
^ This.
If people aren’t going to take responsibility and be accountable for the minors in their care, civilization aka the law, will force them to.
If adults faced serious penalties for counselling minors to commit any crime they might take their responsibility more seriously.
We might also consider recognizing the preamble of 2a where the founder’s described the prerequisite to bearing arms being the demonstration of responsibility and proficiency as they did with the phrase “a well regulated militia”.
And considering the general dumbing down of our brainwashed woke society, maybe raising the age of legal gun possession to at least be equal with consuming alcohol.
Do all these things and leave demonstrably responsible and proficient gun owners alone.
Funny….they the kid as an adult. How do you reconcile that????
I have no idea what you’re trying to say.
I think he is asking how a mother can be held accountable for the action of her son because the son is a minor in her care when the law simultaneously chooses to hold that very same son accountable as a adult for the very same action? Clear now?
Yes, if that actually is the translation.
The law is often a blunt instrument while my ability to perceive reality is a fine blade.
At 15 he was undeniably both a child and a young adult.
He was troubled, angry and other adults in authority had expressed their concerns to his parents.
Instead of recognizing these warnings, the parents gave him a handgun he was too young to legally possess.
He chose to immediately kill innocent people.
Recognizing that both guardians and young adults have responsibilities is how I reconcile the verdict.
Someone had to be blamed. The only specification was that that someone NOT be the government frogmarching the kid into school via truancy laws. Whether adults or kids are so coerced, to them, is evasice partisan quibbling. If a workable culprit is needed, the court is there to find one just like in Fahrenheit 451.
He drew a picture of “the blood won’t stop and help me”
And the parents did not check that the gun was still at home?
Seems like that is reason enough to prosecute them
How could they check "at home" if they were both at the school? That's when the decision to leave the kid in school was made.
What the fuck was that supposed to be about? Did the kid think he was possessed by demons or some such nonsense?
SHOW OF HANDS, PLEASE. How many here knew video games were the culprit before reading Sullum's analysis?
(Um... nobody asked you, Remy)
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My son was contented with the Red Ryder BB-gun I gave him when I bought one for myself. Neither he nor I has subsequently gone on to commit mass murder. In any case it would be almost impossible to kill anyone with a BB-gun. Or with a single-shot .22 target pistol, for that matter. What exactly causes the seemingly fetishistic devotion to high caliber semi-automatics?
high caliber semi-automatics?
It was a fucking 9mm.
Stick with the red Ryder discussions
Should the police and military all be issued single shot.22’s?
One can certainly kill with a single-shot 22. It isn’t as certain as with a larger caliber and more rounds, but it is hardly difficult.
In fact, one can kill with a large knife, a box cutter, a bowling pin, a big rock, a pint of gasoline, a 757, or a Chevy Chevette.
Ridiculous theory. They kill with guns at an astronomical rate.
Who are "they" ?
Durr...I think you need to change your name.
Which “they” are you referring to, though?
Time to fuck off back to the Huffington Post, champ. Your ActBlue talking points have no power here.
Fairly sure most deaths by guns are from .22's. A majority of my guns are this caliber because my wife won't shoot anything bigger. I am a thin guy so a small 22 is all I have ever cc'd. I have 10 shots if ever needed. And they are cheap to shoot.
I would hope that the majority, if not all, of your guns tragically fell off a boat that one time.
It isn't just the caliber that matters, it's the round.
We used a .22 rimfire for target and varmint hunting when I was a kid.
Meanwhile, the Army used a 5.56 mm round (.219 caliber) in the M16 which was a lot deadlier.
What exactly causes the seemingly fetishistic devotion to high caliber semi-automatics?
Well some people like them because they're fucking awesome. And for some people, you answered your own question: If you wish to defend yourself, your home or your family, a bb gun or a single shot .22 is not a great option.
I don't understand people's fetishistic devotion to high-speed internet. Dial-up is good enough, right?
A Lousy Mind, more like it.
I don’t understand people’s fetishistic devotion to fast cars. Mom's minivan is good enough, right?
Limited to a safe speed of 20 mph.
I blame Tracy Chapman.
Anyone who
1. Says that you can't kill someone - easily - with a single-shot .22 lr pistol (hint: bears have been taken down with a single .22LR shot)
2. Says that 9mm is 'high caliber'.
3. Uses the phrase 'high caliber'
is an idiot and doesn't know anything about guns.
Maybe he was using “high caliber” to refer to quality of the gun’s character... Two meanings... caliber... it's a homonym... Forget it.
So, you don't know anything about guns then. Did you ever even get the Red Ryder? I doubt it.
What exactly causes the seemingly fetishistic devotion to high caliber semi-automatics?
People projecting their necrophilic obsession with the mundane details about the caliber of any/all holes in dead people onto others. That’s what causes what you perceive to be a fetish in others to exist.
Otherwise, it would be a rational discussion about actionable information like evidence, means, and motive in any given assault or murder without regard for the weapon or weapons, if any used, rather than your obvious lies and innuendo.
Maybe it's the fetishistic attachment of Christian National Socialism to having SWAT gangs and prohibition agents kick in doors and spray inside with high caliber semi-automatics? By 1930 the plot of prohibition agents not surviving these adventures was increasing at such an alarming rate the government quit publishing the statistics. Three years later drink prohibition was repealed. With fewer agents firing into homes, popular demand for non-service high caliber semi-automatics dropped, just as it rose in countries that imported American-style prohibition laws. See unequal yet apposite reprisal force (https://bit.ly/3U7jQw4)
“her novel prosecution”
So I guess we’re just doing this now.
The irony after the Sullum article melted the servers.
Was mom making speeches nearby exhorting the kid to patriotically shoot people? To Democratic Kleptocracy judges that could look incriminating. Republican judges can reliably be expected to wave it away with a "so what?" Both halves of the Kleptocracy have for 50 years made sure there are no libertarian judges to confuse the issue by misleading references to individual responsibility. The entrenched parties can sure as hell take credit for that.
Big-Daddy-Emperors Trump and Biden have NOT prevented Their Precious Children (all of us peons) from committing who knows HOW many murders in the last 7 years?!?! THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!!! AND PREVENTED!!!
HANG THEM HIGH, I SAY!!!!
"TRUMP!!!"
This, from The Perfectly Self-Righteous Adolf-Adoring Hitler-Humper, AKA, Moose-Mammary-Necrophilia-Farter-Fuhrer, who does NOT believe that Hitler was using the Big Lie when he (and fellow NAZIs) endlessly repeated that Jews stabbed Germany in the back, in WW I, and THAT was why they lost!!! Therefor, Hitler was correct… Moose-Mammary-Necrophilia-Farter-Fuhrer believes that Germany wasn’t defeated militarily, except because Jews stabbed Germany in the back!!!
Moose-Mammary-Necrophilia-Farter-Fuhrer is an Adolf-Adoring Hitler-Humper, no less than Rob Misek the Miserable Liar!!! It is plain to see, for people who can THINK!
>>In some sense, the case seemed to hinge on what prosecutors wished the law said, not on what it actually says.
in another sense, J6 seems to hinge on what some authors wish the video showed, not on what it actually shows ...
“Both parents have been intensely criticized for letting their son go back to class after that meeting—a decision that was greenlit by the school as well—after which Ethan would go on to commit murder.”
So the school is going to be held liable too, right? Right?
The school has very little power to control or manage students for fear of legal reprisals. These parent actions, knowing what they knew, doing what they had done and failing to do what they should have done, are one hundred percent responsible for their complete failure as parent of this kid. Schools should be teaching kids. Parents should be parenting. There just needs to be a much higher bar set for what parenting means. Today that bar was placed in the correct spot.
No, the state never proved the parents KNEW his son would go on murdering people. They never read his journal and the son explained that his bloody drawing was a design for a video game. The moron jurors probably thought "Guns am bad, parents give gun to kids, them am bad".
Jesus help this person as they are so in lack of knowledge and common sense and most importantly, empathy.
He's got a point. Refute it and give your reasons why, or fuck off.
Don't just fucking whinge about how every one else is dumb for reasons you won't, or can't, explain.
Schools have
a) 'in loco parentis' authority - extending from the time a student leaves home to go to school until they return home. Potentially even after.
b) Can always just suspend a student they feel is a threat.
As written, yes but public schools are at the mercy of parents and cannot withstand the threat of lawsuits so often they make decisions based on this knowledge.
That may be true but that doesn't transfer liability for their failure to act to someone else.
Presumably "professional" educators know more than individual parents about which students are actual threats and which are not. Experienced "professional" educators have training, experience, and far more examples at their fingertips than parents do. As well, the "professional" educators should have no bias but, not unexpectedly, bias is common among parents.
If proper decisions by schools result in lawsuits, that's just the cost of running the schools just as heat, roofing, and text books are.
Presumably “professional” educators know more than individual parents about which students are actual threats and which are not. Experienced “professional” educators have training, experience, and far more examples at their fingertips than parents do.
I dislike this argument. It’s an appeal to authority, and let’s be honest, people working in public schools are NOT the best and brightest.
Worse, it basically concedes that schools are more likely to know if a kid is trans than their parents, which I find false. I don’t see how you can simultaneously hold the position that the school “professionals” are liable here, but then disagree with their judgment on children’s gender identity.
I think, or hope that was irony...
At such mercy to parents they are transitioning kids without parental permission.
This is patently and retardedly false.
It’s like saying a baker might get sued for using flour in their baking and, as such, will refrain from using it. They can be sued but, by and large, any suits will be rejected prima facie. If school policy says you can’t bring a gun, which it does, and the school suspends you for bringing a gun. No standing/moot point. To the point that private and even some public schools dictate dress codes and backpack contents/personal effects.
You’re just a tar baby or sea lion. You don’t care if what you say is right or accurate or even really relevant. You care that it sounds just plausible enough to trip people up and/or waste their time. If it’s wrong, all the better as then you both trip people up believing you *and* trip people up correcting you.
Eat a bullet you waste of space.
I'm pretty sure that most public schools can't suspend a student that they "feel" is a threat without some actual evidence. That sounds like a fertile grounds for a lawsuit.
If they feel that a student is a threat, they are obligated to get the Police involved. It's that simple.
Personally I think that the School is getting it's ass covered by the prosecution of the parents.
The article does raise one interesting question.
Ethan was charged as an Adult, yet his parents are being charged because he is a child. Sounds kind of odd to me.
Hahahahahahahahaha
Goddamn Ed. Thanks for the laugh.
Remember this guy?
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/28/us/st-louis-school-shooting-friday/index.html
This was local to me. I play softball on the fields directly across the street from this school. My girlfriend lives less than a mile away.
Do you think this guy's family should be charged? They did everything they could. School officials knew. Police knew.
Really?
We have schools teaching children that they don't have to obey their parents. We have laws in some areas that prevent schools from notifying parents of issues that involve their child. (abortion, gender issues, etc.) We have schools that won't release students into the custody of their parents if the student doesn't want them to.
Same thing derailed denazification in Germany. "The government is not to blame" was what the Commission on War Crimes eventually decided. Rich nazis also got a pass because, unlike the bolshies, they at least loved Jesus. Negligent Mother Magazine used to be a satire in Natinal Lampoon. Now it is pretext for convicting bystanders.
Liable? You mean in a civil suit? Maybe.
This article is about criminal liability.
Any comments on how this judicial finding of parental responsibility will intersect with the whole gender "affirming" bullshit?
I mean if mom is on the hook for gun crazy, she has to able to stop gender crazy, right?
Pathetic reach. Give it up.
How so, troll.
Right. Like your “The school is afraid of getting sued for enforcing it’s own rules… that they wrote down… and distributed to every student and parent… and enforced against other students.” wasn’t a *far* more retarded reach.
So is this parent crime reserved for intact two-parent families outside the hood? If so that lets all the absentee fathers off the hook. Could still prosecute the baby mamas I spose.
Rubbish comment. She bought her disturbed child a weapon, gave him bullets and access to both whenever he chose. Ignored his calls for help, ignored her responsibility to her child and the society she is in.
Did you even read the article? He never told his parents his needed therapy. He apparently wrote in his journal that he craved therapy and drew violent images, but his parents never read them. Even school officials were caught off guard that he shot his classmates. If he was legally allowed to own guns, then the state can't charge his parents for crimes he committed with it.
Since you're using terms like "rubbish" I'm assuming you're from Canada or UK. Yes, you can go to jail in those countries for things protected under the US constitution. Not here though.
Did you read my comment? Nah, too busy desperately trying to mitigate the fallout. You should learn something about your country and its laws. Maybe you wouldn't be so surprised when good things like this happen.
Your comment was name calling bullshit that XM handily refuted.
I read your comments, in which you celebrated the parents being convicted of a crime that exists only in your head.
The state had to prove that the parents knew the kid was deranged but did nothing to stop it. There's no evidence of that. Even the school admin was caught off guard that he shot the kids. The school let him stay because he was a shy kid who said he would be feel depressed when left alone.
The gun is entirely irrelevant (although some gun charges might be applicable) if the parents thought his kid wasn't mentally deranged. It was a bad judgment call maybe, but not criminal.
Lesson for Ed - read the story before blowing a gasket on it.
Finally! In an ocean of MAGA bigots, another collectivist Democrat wades in to take Tony's place and defend the Political State from all comers. Third parties get a word in edgewise now and then.
Or because he was replying to someone named, "Rubbish!"...
And the mothers of gangbangers and serial car thieves have no idea that they are a risk to the public
Racist. And stupidly illogical. Giving birth to a murderer is not a crime. Giving them murder weapons is. Get it you moron? No, probably not, but try.
Was he a murderer or even violent when she bought the gun? No. He was like millions of other teens who's parents buy them a firearm, edgelord words and all. Mom didn't have a crystal ball that he was going to be different.
Virtue-signaling dickhead equates “gangbanger” with “person of color”.
Virtue-signaling dickhead is clearly a typical Democrat Party member racist piece of shit.
Ed is just a sad little troll that pops in every once in a while.
I think it's another KAR sock.
That depends on how far prosecutors are willing to go.
Alas, the rule of lenity does not restrain all prosecutors.
According to Teedy Roosevelt, Kaiser Wilhelm, Long Dong, Palito and KKKavanaugh, women need laws to force them to submit to sex and bear children. Being jailed if the kid kills people is icing on the cake. Mystical doublethink and reality control is up to resolving any apparent dilemma neatly and without reflection.
At some point there must be consequences for bringing one's work to school -- which is not an unconditional free speech culture even though it may be half-way between being under a legal implicit and being under a popularity buzzsaw assembly line of producing injustice for kids whose expressions are not deemed strong enough to please the demands of school invasion into the spirit of creativity.
Really, I think if I were a teacher I would rather tell a kid that drawing blood and guts can really freak other people out than jump right away to unfounded conclusions that attempt to impose an alienable right upon an explicitly inalienable one.
Since government should not be the hand slapping freedom of expression on those specific grounds, let it be another child's parent bringing that court trial civilly to punish the creative expression and see if the court system agrees.
What the hell are you blabbering about?
You are an unwelcome addition to the already terrible board. Go away
Luckily, since they added the "Mute User" button, there is a way to make the retardation go away.
You can stop blabbering too. Make a point, have something to say. If the board is terrible then go suck on you mommy's titty.
Fuck off, KAR.
Cunty McDemocrat speaks.
From the bleachers it looks like child neglect...neglect that lead to the child acting out against innocents. Kids hide dark thoughts from their parents. They just do. By her own admission, she didn't act when she was made aware of her child's dark, destructive thoughts. She is not blameless...she's responsible for the actions of her child while she has custody.
I think it might qualify as 'reckless endangerment', conduct that creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury or death to another person. Like having a swimming pool without a fence around it to keep kids out.
Agreed...until someone is actually harmed (or worse.) No one would question the parent being legally responsible for property damage had her child shot out windows at school with the gun and no one being physically harmed. Nor would anyone question the parent being legally responsible for the medical bills of her son's actions of physically harming another child at school or elsewhere for that matter. So why the uproar for holding her responsible for the actual deaths of other students by the hand of her son? Negligent homicide is, by definition, when someone dies due to another person's negligence. She was negligent.
How many charges was each parent facing?
few serious people would argue adultery is a stand-up choice
Give ENB enough time, she'll get there.
Does this really set a precedent? This was a very unique case, and the parents seem to be very reckless here. They bought a gun for a kid that they knew was having problems. They failed to account for and secure that gun. When they sent Ethan back to class they should have accounted for the gun. Prosecutors had a rich case, that would not be the same for many other cases.
Lol
They bought him a gun in hopes that they could use it as a vehicle to improve his issues. Thought it might let him enjoy a hobby, and perhaps find a bit of discipline. They knew he had problems, they didn't realize he was a psychopath. Who would?
I would like you to stop and think about your comment. You suggest buying a troubled kid a gun to improve his issues. You start with a troubled kid by giving them your time, not by giving them a gun.
I never said she was a perfect parent. Just that she didn’t hand him a gun and say “have a good day annihilating your enemies, sweetheart.”
Kids with issues can be real hard to get to. Often it's join them in their world or lose them completely. You dig for their interests and then try to reach them through that.
Friends of mine have a screwed up kid. His mom divorced the worthless sperm donor but hasn't got the money for a good lesbian man hating lawyer to prevent the kid from staying with the sperm donor on weekends. Kid is all kinds of messed up, the school calls his mom weekly.
The only in we can find is the game Minecraft. You have to sit and play Minecraft with him to be able to talk with him. Otherwise he just closes up and cries.
The school shooters parents probably thought the gun range was the way in. Believe it or not most people don't look at a gun and wonder how many people they can kill with it before they are taken out. They see a device that is fun to take out target shooting. They see something that can lead to good family memories at the range.
Sure, hind sight being 20/20 you can make arm chair quarterback calls. But when you have a troubled kid and the school isn't being helpful you grab onto whatever you can to try and help.
Any kid can be difficult to reach at times and your story illustrates my point. It isn't that you're playing Minecraft with the kid it is that you are giving him time. And you're doing it in a way he likes. My kids are in their 30s and if they are having a hard time with something, I take them to lunch and I listen to them.
As for guns, I don't think we need a bunch of new laws but people need a serious attitude. Gun owners I know have that attitude. I have said many times the Constitution gives people the right to own a gun, it doesn't tell you should own a gun. You need to answer that question for yourself. The parents here failed that test.
BTW - I have no idea what kind of game Minecraft is. I had a rule with my kids that there would be no first-person shooter games and they never challenged that rule. I would also suggest that with time you try to get the kid to play card or board games like cribbage, Uno, or scrabble. These kinds of games offer better person to person interaction.
I had a rule with my kids that there would be no first-person shooter games
Some of the greatest games are first-person shooters. You are apparently unable to handle the difference between fantasy and reality and projected that onto your kids. Talk about your awful parenting!
"You start with a troubled kid by giving them your time, not by giving them a gun."
Oh wow, thanks for the platitude.
It is akin to letting your child join a gang for the same reason.
A LOT of black people will be going to jail in Michigan, if not other blue states.
Racist.
Not likely. I have noted this case is unique.
The circumstance may not be as unique as you think.
And, I know it's hard for anti-2A Statist dickbags who consider themselves the moral imperative in the Universe to conceive this, but "I deem this case to be unique on the internet." does not, in fact, prevent any activist juries, judges, or DAs, or combination of the above from seeing it as not at all unique.
If this stands, the "It Takes A Village" folks may face interesting times.
Yeah, many of these people for quite some time have been very vocal about the fact that they don't really believe your kids belong to you or are your responsibility either and, really, this is just about abrogating the Constitution, padding the resume with a 'W', and punishing their personal group of deplorables du jour.
This MUST be heard by the supreme court. And we should never take the left seriously when they masquerade as some champions of "criminal justice reform". What a laughable nonsense.
This problem might resolve by itself when too many POCs (parents of color) go to jail over this nonsensical standard and the mob cries "this is racism". Then the prosecutors cry and repent of their latent bigotry.
You're obsessed with the color of peoples skin. The day another mother or father buys her underaged child a gun and gives them full access to it and ignores their violent and depressive tendencies and that child commits murder with that weapon, then that parent or parents are going to jail as well. Whoever willingly supplies a murder weapon is liable.
He never showed any violent tendencies. You clearly didn't read the article, so there's no point in talking to you.
Lysander Spooner quote detected!
I'm sure it will be appealed, but there is no need for the US Supreme Court to be involved...
I haven't read the transcripts, but it does seem odd that someone could be convicted of involuntary manslaughter based on the facts presented in the press.
FTFY:
I see from the comments this article has brought out the finest of drive trolls and morons.
Far be it from me to accept a magazine's account of these events in preference to the decisions of a judge and jury, but I would like to see someone try to explain to unenlightened folks like me what thing parents are going to be held accountable for.
Lots of kids, alas, commit horrible crimes, and their parents are usually not prosecuted.
Maybe in this situation it was the gun thing?
My parents said do not steal and I stole. They said do not smoke and I smoked. They said do not do drugs and I did drugs. Idiots that think parents control teenagers has never had kids. There is scant evidence here that the parent KNEW anything!
Jurors will convict anyone in this country. It is almost automatic. Going to trial is a mistake even if you are innocent.
"It seemed so odd that it would be him." Superintendent Tim Throne echoed that: "At no time did counselors believe the student might harm others based on his behavior, responses and demeanor," he testified, "which appeared calm."
YET the State is not charging the counselors or superintendents! What an absolute farce.
"Jurors will convict anyone in this country. It is almost automatic."
A prosecutor has to be exceptionally stupid (or ugly) these days not to win a jury conviction.
I wonder why the Founding Fathers wanted to protect a right to a trial by jury.
By this standard of parental responsibility I don't see how a school can do anything with a child. No abortion help, no alphabet Mafia help, no advise on anything. If the parents are this level of responsible the school can't tell a child anything.
Well, DenverJ moved to Michigan, on the outskirts of Flint, believe it or not. Still calling myself DenverJ, though. But it's... different than where I grew up. The retirees made $40 per hr in the 70s with a high school education, while the workers they are training are making $17/hr. Some of the worse hit areas of the state are in abject poverty. Flint used to be like the 3rd richest city in America; it's in pretty bad shape today.
DenverJ moved to Michigan, on the outskirts of Flint
That's quite an admission. DenverJ makes very bad decisions (unless, of course you are getting a 7-figure salary)
The charge of involuntary manslaughter itself is rather fishy and most sentencing (6-yrs max federally) reflect that. However; I agree with the point in the article. Only a prosecutors witch-hunt gets to charge simultaneously as an Adult and a Child and that really is the obvious violation of the charges. These parents should get their cases dismissed on that basis alone whether it serves 'justice' or not it serves it better than the prosecutors collaborative-contradictory charges.
“These parents should get their cases dismissed on that basis alone whether it serves ‘justice’ or not…”
Whether it serves justice or not? No one would question the parent being legally responsible for property damage had her child shot out windows at school with the gun and no one being physically harmed. Nor would anyone question the parent being legally responsible for the medical bills of her son’s actions of physically harming another child at school or elsewhere for that matter. So why the uproar for holding her responsible for the actual deaths of other students by her son’s actions? Involuntary Manslaughter is when someone dies due to another person’s negligence. She was negligent for NOT doing *anything* after she learned of her son’s dark, depraved thoughts and written images (blood everywhere, dead kids).
The “child” isn’t charged as an “adult” in those cases. That’s the whole point of this article is the complete contradiction of charges. I for one think ‘intent’ is the biggest part of serving justice something this case has absolutely a zero basis of and since the child was charged as an adult in the eyes of the law the dependency liability got canceled by prosecutions over aggressiveness.
She looks as bad as Adam Toledo's mother.
Absurd conviction, as is charging the boy as an adult - one of the stupider and more malign aspects of the US judicial system.
That's the GOP-DEM looter kleptocracy judicial system, not the USA system. An analogy is the sort of dementia that occurs when a spirochaete infection is left untreated...
Non-lawyers shouldn’t opine on jury trials. Of course the school administrators testified they couldn’t believe Ethan was the shooter. They are all being sued by the families of the dead students and other injured students. They cannot admit otherwise. Also, when mom heard about the school shooting on the local news, she text Ethan and said “don’t do it.” She didn’t ask him if he was safe. She begged him not to shoot up the school. That, pardon the pun, is a literal smoking gun.
Moreover, the supposed contradiction that he was a child yet tried as an adult and therefore parents cannot be responsible is simply a made up concept by the author. Adults can be held responsible for other adults. You give your car keys to someone you know is drunk and they crash and hurt someone, you will be held liable.
Finally, this jury verdict sets absolutely zero precedent. I’m guessing the author didn’t use the word “precedent” as it’s understood in the law. Under the law, trial court verdicts have no precedential value (with the exception of certain US District Court rulings, which can be cited in certain circumstances as persuasive authority). When the Court of Appeals issues its rulings on the eventual appeal, that ruling may be used as precedent if the Court of Appeals publishes the opinion. Will the verdict cause other prosecutors to consider bringing similar charges against parents of school shooters? Maybe. But that is not precedent.
They had the parents and the kid in the Principals office the day of the shooting and the gun was in the kid's backpack. If the staff had checked his bag this wouldn't have happened.