Was the Capitol Riot an 'Insurrection,' and Did Trump 'Engage in' It?
The Colorado Supreme Court's reasoning in deciding that Trump is constitutionally disqualified from running for president seems iffy.

"It's self-evident," President Joe Biden told reporters on Wednesday. "You saw it all. He certainly supported an insurrection. No question about it. None. Zero."
Biden was referring to the Colorado Supreme Court's recent ruling that Donald Trump is disqualified from that state's presidential primary ballot under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, which was originally aimed at barring former Confederates from returning to public office after the Civil War. As relevant here, Section 3 says "no person shall…hold any office, civil or military, under the United States…who, having previously taken an oath…as an officer of the United States…to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same."
Biden, whose reelection bid would get a big boost from Trump's disqualification, takes it for granted that the January 6, 2021, riot at the U.S. Capitol qualified as an "insurrection" under the 14th Amendment, and he says there is "no question" that Trump "engaged in" that insurrection. But the Colorado Supreme Court's reasoning on both of those crucial points is iffy, and I say that as someone who thought Trump richly deserved his second impeachment, which was provoked by his reckless behavior before and during the riot.
On its face, that impeachment supports the court's decision, which was joined by four of seven justices. The article of impeachment, after all, charged Trump with "incitement of insurrection" and explicitly cited Section 3. But that debatable characterization was not necessary to show that Trump was guilty of "high crimes and misdemeanors."
Trump's misconduct included his refusal to accept Biden's victory, his persistent peddling of his stolen-election fantasy, his pressure on state and federal officials to embrace that fantasy, the incendiary speech he delivered to his supporters before the riot, and his failure to intervene after a couple thousand of those supporters invaded the Capitol, interrupting the congressional ratification of the election results. All of that was more than enough to conclude that Trump had egregiously violated his oath to "faithfully execute" his office and to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution." It was more than enough to justify his conviction for high crimes and misdemeanors in the Senate, which would have prevented him from running for president again.
Achieving the same result under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, by contrast, does require concluding that Trump "engaged in insurrection." But in reaching that conclusion, the Colorado Supreme Court never actually defines insurrection.
"At oral argument," the opinion notes, "President Trump's counsel, while not providing a specific definition, argued that an insurrection is more than a riot but less than a rebellion. We agree that an insurrection falls along a spectrum of related conduct." But the court does not offer "a specific definition" either: "It suffices for us to conclude that any definition of 'insurrection' for purposes of Section Three would encompass a concerted and public use of force or threat of force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the U.S. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish a peaceful transfer of power in this country."
That description suggests a level of intent and coordination that seems at odds with the chaotic reality of the Capitol riot. Some rioters were members of groups, such as the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys, that thought the use of force was justified to keep Trump in office. But even in those cases, federal prosecutors had a hard time proving a specific conspiracy to "hinder or prevent the U.S. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish a peaceful transfer of power" by interrupting the electoral vote tally on January 6. And the vast majority of rioters seem to have acted spontaneously, with no clear goal in mind other than expressing their outrage at an election outcome they believed was the product of massive fraud.
They believed that, of course, because that is what Trump told them. But to the extent that Trump bears moral and political responsibility for riling them up with his phony grievance (which he does), his culpability hinges on the assumption that the rioters acted impulsively and emotionally in the heat of the moment. That understanding is hard to reconcile with the Colorado Supreme Court's premise that Trump's hotheaded supporters acted in concert with the intent of forcibly preventing "a peaceful transfer of power."
Nor is it clear that Trump "engaged in" the "insurrection" that the court perceives. After reviewing dictionary definitions and the views of Henry Stanbery, the U.S. attorney general when the 14th Amendment was debated, the majority concludes that "'engaged in' requires 'an overt and voluntary act, done with the intent of aiding or furthering the common unlawful purpose.'"
Trump's pre-riot speech was reckless because it was foreseeable that at least some people in his audience would be moved to go beyond peaceful protest. Some 2,000 of the 50,000 or so supporters he addressed that day (around 4 percent) participated in the assault on the Capitol. But that does not necessarily mean Trump intended that result. In concluding that he did, the court interprets Trump's demand that his supporters "fight like hell" to "save our democracy" literally rather than figuratively. It also notes that he repeatedly urged them to march toward the Capitol. As the court sees it, that means Trump "literally exhorted his supporters to fight at the Capitol."
The justices eventually concede that Trump, who never explicitly called for violence, said his supporters would be "marching to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard." But they discount that phrasing as cover for Trump's actual intent. Given Trump's emphasis on the necessity of "fight[ing] like hell" to avert the disaster that would result if Biden were allowed to take office, they say, the implicit message was that the use of force was justified. In support of that conclusion, the court cites Chapman University sociologist Peter Simi, who testified that "Trump's speech took place in the context of a pattern of Trump's knowing 'encouragement and promotion of violence,'" which he accomplished by "develop[ing] and deploy[ing] a shared coded language with his violent supporters."
That seems like a pretty speculative basis for concluding that Trump intentionally encouraged his supporters to attack the Capitol. Given what we know about Trump, it is perfectly plausible that, unlike any reasonably prudent person, he was heedless of the danger that his words posed in this context. It is harder to believe that he cleverly developed a "coded language" that he knew some of his supporters would understand as a call to violence.
Nor is it clear how the violence that Trump allegedly intended was supposed to benefit him. There was no realistic prospect that it would actually stop Biden from taking office, and in the end it did no more than delay completion of the electoral vote count. Meanwhile, it alienated former Trump allies (albeit only briefly in some cases), led to his second impeachment, and left an ineradicable stain on his presidency.
The Colorado Supreme Court's belief that Trump intentionally caused a riot also figures in its rejection of his argument that his January 6 speech was protected by the First Amendment. The relevant standard here comes from the U.S. Supreme Court's 1969 decision in Brandenburg v. Ohio, which involved a Klansman who was convicted of promoting terrorism and criminal syndicalism. Under Brandenburg, even advocacy of illegal conduct is constitutionally protected unless it is both "directed" at inciting "imminent lawless action" and "likely" to do so.
The Colorado Supreme Court quotes the 6th Circuit's elucidation of that test in the 2015 case Bible Believers v. Wayne County: "The Brandenburg test precludes speech from being sanctioned as incitement to riot unless (1) the speech explicitly or implicitly encouraged the use of violence or lawless action, (2) the speaker intends that his speech will result in the use of violence or lawless action, and (3) the imminent use of violence or lawless action is the likely result of his speech."
It is hard to deny that Trump's speech satisfies the third prong, which is why it provoked so much well-deserved criticism and rightly figured in his impeachment. But what about the other two prongs?
Applying the first prong, the court cites "the general atmosphere of political violence that President Trump created before January 6" as well as the "coded language" of his speech that day. As evidence of the "specific intent" required by the second prong, it notes that "federal agencies that President Trump oversaw identified threats of violence ahead of January 6." It also cites what it takes to be the implicit message of Trump's speech and his reluctance to intervene after the riot started.
"President Trump intended that his speech would result in the use of violence or lawless action on January 6 to prevent the peaceful transfer of power," the court says. "Despite his knowledge of the anger that he had instigated, his calls to arms, his awareness of the threats of violence that had been made leading up to January 6, and the obvious fact that many in the crowd were angry and armed, President Trump told his riled-up supporters to walk down to the Capitol and fight. He then stood back and let the fighting happen, despite having the ability and authority to stop it (with his words or by calling in the military), thereby confirming that this violence was what he intended."
All of this evidence is consistent with recklessness and dereliction of duty. But it falls short of proving that Trump deliberately "encouraged the use of violence" or that he had a "specific intent" to cause a riot, let alone that he thereby "engaged in insurrection."
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses.
Essential heart and core of the LIE by Trump: “ANY election results not confirming MEEE as Your Emperor, MUST be fraudulent!”
September 13 rally: “The Democrats are trying to rig this election because that’s the only way they’re going to win,” he said.
Trump’s constant re-telling and supporting the Big Lie (any election not electing Trump is “stolen”) set up the environment for this (insurrection riot) to happen. He shares the blame. Boys will be boys? Insurrectionists will be insurrectionists, trumpanzees gone apeshit will be trumpanzees gone apeshit, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Trump was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
Let's erect us an erections-disrespector, to preserve and protect mobocracy over democracy! Twat could POSSIBLY go wrong, anyway?!!? Spermy Daniels is WITH us!!!! Full sperms ahead, out the head, and sperms AND germs full-speed AHEAD!!!
Just flag this shit.
Did that long, long ago. Plowing through what that TDS-addled spastic asshole posts is, universally, a waste of time.
He’s the only non slammer that I have blocked. The other Marxist assholes are too much fun to slap around.
Im beginning to wonder if Biden is even human.
Wearing dark glasses for interviews walking like a drugged zombie.
I’m sure he was the perfect puppet for the unelected shadow government controlling him but now…
If he’s not even believable as human, his words aren’t either.
So fucking what? It's legal to be wrong. It's legal to lie. It's legal to put forward novel legal theories, even if they are stupid and wrong. Absolutely everything Trump did was protected by the first amendment. both the free speech clause and the right to petition for redress of grievances (which is precisely what Trump asked his supporters to do).
They aren't stupid and wrong though.
Stop pretending these malignant tumors have a speck of good faith to argue with.
I'll pretend whatever I want, thank you very much.
I'm sure you will. I bet you really impress yourself.
It is good advice though.
I think you're missing the point. Trump planted the idea of election fraud long before the election. He also said mail in ballots couldn't be trusted (if enough Trump voters who would have mailed in their ballots voted in person instead, then the tally for in-person and mail-in will be different, and he could point to that as fraud, even though he created the difference). Then, as soon as he lost, he declared the election invalid and went looking for fraud. After not finding any people still believe it. And it's just not true. It's a Big Lie. That's dangerous, and that's the point.
I think the point is that they are abusing the law and the language in an attempt to deprive people of the opportunity to vote for their preferred candidate.
I was talking about Squirrely's link, not CO. Yeah, that's shit on a stick. We need more ballot access, not less.
“Planted the idea of election fraud” as a MI resident and household of 2 -who received 5 ballot applications in the mail- I did not need Trump to tell me that the election was rigged. It arrived in my mailbox.
Did they insist you use all 5?
Jesus Christ you’re stupid.
sarky does have this rewputation.
Of course, the same side that keeps saying, 2020 wAs tHe cLeAnEsT eLeCtIoN eVaH also said since November of 2016, tRumP cOlLuDdEd wItH tHe rUsSiAnS®™ tO sTeAl 2016 bY pOsTiNg fAcEbOoK mEmEs!
I must be a pretty shitty member of the team because I don't say any of those things.
It’s as if you don’t think people have memories.
sarcasmic was being sarcastic *gasp*
That’s a cute little defense mechanism you have there.
Clown nose off: “take this seriously!”
Clown nose on: “it was just a joke, bro!”
Because he’s a total pussy.
OMG
No but the Dem SOS illegally instructed election workers to accept mail in ballots even if signatures didn’t match.
As everyone knows, that accommodation was because one of the common effects of recovery from a Covid-19 bout was that your signature changed drastically from the one on file with the voting registrar.
Yes! This IS what we have LLearned from the LLizard PPeople!!! That... AND all about the mind-cuntrolling micro-shits in the vaccines!!!
My signature on my 2020 Arizona ballot was VERY different from my signature on my 2004 Arizona voter registration form. People's handwriting changes over the course of their lives. Election offices need flexibility and they have standards they apply as to how much discrepancy is permissable.
Normal people aren’t like you.
You're dreaming if you think your signature hasn't changed and won't change even more as you age. Wait until arthritis attacks your hands and just holding a pen is painful. You kids nowadays. You know nothing, but you're always quick to cast aspersions and engage in name-calling. Rudeness is not an attractive trait.
Hey, Arbiter of Normality, "normal" is age-dependent. Just give a minute's thought to the market for Viagra.
EdG's right: your handwriting changes as you age. But most young people have to turn into old people before they realize that.
"Hey, Arbiter of Normality, “normal” is age-dependent. Just give a minute’s thought to the market for Viagra."
Hey, Apologist for Lefty Shits, specializing in false equivalences, are you?
"EdG’s right: your handwriting changes as you age. But most young people have to turn into old people before they realize that."
My bank sees my signature as matching the one on file from 50 years ago; I think you're full of shit.
"...Rudeness is not an attractive trait."
In your case, it is entirely appropriate.
Bullshit.
I certainly agree with this-signature matching requires some degree of flexibility. But what is the point of signature matching at all if there are no consistently applied standards?
Lefty lies.
Now that is desperate.
Ballots aren't mailed out like advertising bundles where you might get a couple because the Mailmqn isnt paying attention.
You really are a thirsty, dumb bitch. Aren’t you pussy?
And sarc continues to remain ignorant in his utter hate of Trump and his new found alliance with the left.
Democrats throughout 2015 discussed the ability of the election to be hacked.
https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/04/16/399986331/hacked-touchscreen-voting-machine-raises-questions-about-election-security
Then for the next 4 years claim Russia stole the election from Hillary.
And even in 2019 leftist outlets abd democrat politicians were discussing election hacking and vote changes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/us/politics/russian-hacking-elections.html
Yet sarc thinks Trump is the creator of these theories. All while he ignores the numerous examples of actual fraud and avenues of fraud found in 2020. Illegal election changes. People admitting to voting for other people and out of state. Ballot harvesting. Statistical anomalies all going in Joe's favor. Dem election officials kicking out observers. Etc etc.
Sarc is not an honest person.
Do you ever get tired of telling me what I think and then arguing against it?
"Trump planted the idea of election fraud long before the election."
This sentence might be why he is saying that. Just sayin.
He wrote that a whopping hour ago. Do you expect him to remember that far back?
Alcohol is bad for both long and short term memory formation.
Which is why I don't engage with him.
"The problem with wrestling a pig is that both of you get covered in shit. But the pig enjoys it."
I just slap him down and encourage him to finish drinking himself to death. He’s too much of a pussy for anything else.
“We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics,” Biden said in a clip posted to Instagram Oct. 24.
“Oh, please! Where’s your nuance?” -Jeff.
There were no examples of actual fraud and avenues of fraud found in 2020. Each of those claims was examined and disproved. Many times. It's insane that you keep repeating them, because they are not factual.
Are you trying to say that the 2020 election was 100% clean with nothing even questionable going on? Not one ballot tossed out for partisan reasons. Not one person who voted twice by mail in ballot? Not a single fraudulent vote cast...
Because if you believe that I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
I was responding to JesseAZ's claims of "Illegal election changes. People admitting to voting for other people and out of state. Ballot harvesting. Statistical anomalies all going in Joe’s favor. Dem election officials kicking out observers."
Your claims of "ballot tossed out for partisan reasons. person who voted twice by mail in ballot? single fraudulent vote cast." certainly may have happened. There was the guy in Pennsylvania that cast a vote for his dead mother. He was a Republican. Another Republican, also in Pennsylvania, voted for his dead father. But there are mechanisms in place to catch those things and both guys were caught.
So you admit you lied. That's a start.
Bullshit.
Someone was found guilty this fucking week of voting in multiple states in the 2020 election. Others have been found guilty previously. The fuck are you talking about with "no actual fraud?"
Yeah, I've seen those cases. Like this Trump voter in Ohio:
"A Cuyahoga County judge found Shaker Heights resident James Saunders guilty of voter fraud Tuesday. Saunders cast votes in both Ohio and Florida during the 2020 and 2022 elections.
Despite suspicions among conservatives about rampant voter fraud benefiting Democrats, Saunders is a Trump supporter. According to FEC data he gave more than $5,600 to the former president’s campaign committee and the National Republican Congressional Committee."
What's ironic is that he was caught by the system Ohio's Republican Secretary of State bailed out of this year. So much for Republicans being concerned about voter fraud.
Holy shit!
20% of mail-in voters have admitted that they committed some kind of voter fraud, by voting for others, voting in districts they no longer lived in, etc.
They ADMITTED IT!
And we all know who their votes went to.
Please provide a link to reputable source for that claim. Thanks!
And if you tried to use them all, what do you think would have happened? Or, alternately, if you did try to use them all, what happened?
It matters not a whit how many you received. What matters is how many the clerk's office accepted and counted. All you need to do is check your voting record online and you'll see exactly how many that was. It's not rocket science.
Fine. For me.
How many Ed the Lefty Shit ballots were recorded, Ed the Lefty Shit?
Flagged.
I moved in 2020. I got 6 mail in ballots. 3 for each address. They were all plays on my first and middle name. When I registered to vote, I registered under James L. I got ballots addressed to J.L, J LeRoy and Jim L. for each address. None of them were requested. I haven't cast an absentee ballot since the early 80's when I was in the Navy.
Those ballots were from political parties using public databases. They weren't from your clerk's office and they wouldn't have been accepted if you had filled them out and turned them in.
Perhaps your not as dumb as you look, but you do know they record everyone that voted. In fact, you can go to whomever runs the election and request the list (you might have to pay for it). It will list the name and maybe, in some states, the birth year.
And if you add up all those names, and you add up Trump's votes and Biden's vote, you will come up with almost the same number (some people didn't vote for President).
So... the task is simple, just find a few thousand people on the list that didn't vote, and you have proven your fraud.
Until then STFU
They don't want to prove it. They just want to make wild claims and bitch about commie lefties.
And Trump was far from the only person who was making claims that the election could be fraught with fraud prior to election day. It was not just people on the right saying it.
The media tries to rewrite history on this, as if Trump was planning how he was going to create this insurrection far in advance, but there was a LOT of concern about the security of mail-in voting from all corners. They try to pretend it was just Trump saying this to stir the pot, ignoring that people on the left were talking about the potential for election meddling as well, and then pretending that it's evidence of some coherent long-thought plan to start a fight.
It’s pretty interesting that a riot,
that there’s now pretty good evidence was encouraged by feds, was labeled an “insurrection” by democrats and the media, but I repeat myself, and that’s the very specific word in the constitution they’re now using to get Trump disqualified.
Just a coincidence that they used the word "insurrection" on January 6 when that word also happens to appear in the 14th Amendment. It's not like there's an entire motivated apparatus trying to graph colloquial use of words onto legal realities, no.
Also a coincidence that Nancy refused additional security, and is caught on her daughter's video saying she was waiting for the protesters to trespass on Capitol grounds.
There was near universal discussion with Al, the shady legal shit the democrats were pulling months in advance. In addition to the obvious preparations for illegal ballot harvesting. Among other things.
Sarc just hates Trump. It’s all he’s got. Since his drunken fantasies about Jesse showing up at his back door will remain unfulfilled. His severe alcoholism fueling his rage filled delusions.
Some lawmakers have backed election security bills, even before Mueller’s latest warning. But Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., has blocked several election security measures, arguing that the federal government is already doing enough to protect elections.
The Secure Elections Act, cosponsored by Sens. James Lankford, R-Okla., and Amy Klobuchar, D-Minn. is one of the main bipartisan efforts in Congress. The bill, first introduced in 2017, would provide money to states to phase out paperless voting systems, which are easier to hack. It would also speed up security clearances for state election officials and mandate more rigorous post-election audits of results. But these efforts have stalled due to opposition from Republican leadership in Congress.
Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., introduced the Protecting American Votes and Elections Act, which also mandates paper ballots and “risk-limiting audits,” which involve hand counting a percentage of votes regardless of margin of victory.
Source: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/how-the-u-s-is-trying-to-improve-election-security-ahead-of-2020
No, Democrats planted the idea of election fraud before and during Trump's time in office. Or does history now start in 2020?
No, Trump first planted the idea in 2015 so that if he lost to Hillary Clinton, he could claim the election was rigged.
That is NOT the point.
Actually AL Gore planted the seeds when he disputed his loss. His team moved so many rocks and exposed so much corruption in Florida I'm surprised Jimmy Carter wasn't required to watch the next 20 elections in Florida. Al Gore is the reason modern elections aren't seen as trustworthy. Hilary didn't help when she raised the spectre of corruption in 2016. If anyone actually trusted elections in 2020 they had to have a childlike innocence. The idea that anyone ever trusted the county governments to not be biased in elections shocks and amazes me.
Trump didn't do anything that hadn't already been done.
It's not like Al Gore invented election fraud. I live in Georgia. We had a fun instance in 1948, the "Three Governors Controversy." Good ole' boy Eugene Talmadge was running for his 4th term as governor, but was sick and died before taking office. So this ended in a big battle between the outgoing governor, who refused to leave office, the lieutenant-governor elect, who insisted he was the governor until the legislature decided the election and also Herman Talmadge.
Now, Herman Talmadge hadn't declared as a candidate in time to get his name on the ballots, but wouldn't you know it, from his clearly loyal home county, they found boxes and boxes of write-in ballots with his name on them, and it just turned out that he was the runner-up in the election against his dear, old dad.
With so much power at stake, and so little investigation of fraud, and such permissive penalties to people who do commit fraud, it's really a perverse incentive structure.
This has been going on forever.
LBJ pulled You don't need to live in Georgia. but LBJ pulled the Talmadge stunt against his primary opponent, Coke Stevenson in the 1948 Senate elections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_United_States_Senate_election_in_Texas
"Stevenson went to Alice, the Jim Wells County seat, accompanied by Frank Hamer, a legendary Texas Ranger and longtime friend and hunting partner, and attempted to see the tally sheets. Many feared a shootout as Stevenson and Hamer walked down the main street of Alice with their hands on their guns, but they were able to avoid a confrontation by intimidating five of [political "boss" George] Parr's pistoleros into backing down. The bank manager allowed them to briefly view the list, then took it back when he saw them making notes, but Stevenson and Hamer had seen enough to convince them that blatant fraud had taken place, particularly in the vote totals for Precinct 13. *The last 200 or so names on the Precinct 13 tally sheet were in alphabetical order and written in black ink and identical handwriting that was different from the writing for other entries, which were in blue ink.* Stevenson and Hamer had memorized enough of the names that they were able to contact some of the individuals, many of whom stated that they had not voted."
And they're all pikers at this when compared to Illinois, especially Chicago. Chicago, home of the famous phrase, "we don't want nobody nobody sent", which, by the way, was about a Democrat just showing up at a Democrat precinct.
This is an example from the 1982 gubernatorial election where the loser accused the winner of cheating, but it was the loser's operatives who cheated the most.
https://www.heritage.org/election-integrity/report/where-theres-smoke-theres-fire-100000-stolen-votes-chicago
I chose Al Gore because most of these kids here might recall the story it being only 23 years old. If I'd gone back further I figured they'd demand sources and such which I am not dedicated enough to bother with.
Well 100+% voter turnout in Philly with not one vote cast for a Republican might have something to do with it.
Except it didn't happen.
The nonsense that some moronic state legislators put out in PA was easily disproven.
Weird, 200+ Affidavits and not one actually witnessing something illegal. No ballot shredding. And the tally suggest no over counting either.
Everyone that voted, was recorded. So you know the total number of votes. Simply add Trump votes to Biden ones and that tally should be at or below the total number of voters.
The weird thing is the tell-tail numbers add up suggesting no election fraud.
There was some voter fraud - typically Republican - using the excuse that since they believed Democrats were cheating - they could cheat as well.
Actually Al Gore was entitled to a totally legal recount under Florida law for an election that was extremely close. A machine recount occurs when the margin is less than or equal to 0.5% total votes for office. If the machine recount returns a margin of defeat less than or equal to 0.25% of total votes, a manual recount of over/under votes occurs.
Get your facts straight.
Regarding "planting the idea of election fraud..." While no one has definitively proven specific instances of fraud, there's no question that COVID was used as a smoke screen to bypass well established controls in many instances that could certainly enable, if not out-right promote fraud. Also, I always find it interesting that Trump and his supporters are portrayed as delusional. If you look at the incessant deceit and gaslighting by the Democrats beginning as soon it became evident that Hillary would lose and continuing throughout Trump's term, is it so far-fetched to think that many, many people would believe them capable and motivated to do whatever they deemed necessary to ensure his defeat.
A guy was just convicted for sending in 118 ballots
Wrong on two fronts. 1. No, he wasn't convicted. His court appearance is in January. 2. No, it wasn't 118 ballots, it was absentee ballot applications. Apparently, 32 were approved but it's unclear from the source if he cast any actual votes.
Source: https://queensda.org/queens-man-indicted-in-voter-fraud-case/
Odd how Maxine Waters has never once been accused of insurrection in spite of more pointedly and openly advocating for it.
Well, that's (D)ifferent.
Ah yes, the two wrongs make a right argument.
Because you believe Maxine Waters instigated an attempt to stop the government - Trump should be able to do the same.
Stupid logic.
Or that Maxine Waters should not be permitted to hold office and consequently ejected from Congress.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
But three do.
Which riot did she start and what government operation did that riot attempt to stop?
Well, if we use the standard you're using to find Trump guilty of said crimes then she started the so called Summer of Love where the CHAZ was created and several mobs of ANTIFA and BLM members went about beating old men who might have voted for Trump.
https://mtracey.medium.com/the-most-predictable-election-fraud-backlash-ever-4187ba31d430
"John Podesta, the Hillary Clinton campaign chairman whose Gmail account was reputed to have been successfully “phished” by fearsome Russian “hackers,” issued a statement demanding that electors be granted an unheard-of “intelligence briefing” — with the implication for what should be done with that “briefing” information too obvious to need stating outright.
The meeting in Harrisburg concluded with the expected affirmation of Trump’s win — followed by a desperate woman screaming from a balcony at the top of her lungs, “You just gave us Hitler,” before being escorted out by police.
Of course what happened subsequently was that even years after Trump had safely taken power, the corporate media’s top luminaries continuously used the phrase “hacked the election” to describe the purported actions of Russia on behalf of Trump in 2016. Supermajorities of Democratic voters came to believe not just that Russia “interfered” in the election, but directly installed Trump into power by tampering with voting machines. Now, though, journalists who fostered these blinkered beliefs will feign incredulity that their conduct could have contributed to widespread “doubt” as to the “legitimacy” of that election. And they’ll be aghast at any suggestion that this was inevitably going to generate yet another crazed anti-legitimization initiative in 2020."- Michael Tracey
There is a difference between grumbling about the outcome of an election, then marching into congress in an attempt to alter the results of the election.
You cheated.
You got caught.
Everyone knows it.
Cry harder.
Let's not forget the Democrats tabletop exercise where Podesta played Biden. The Dems assumed that if Trump was faced with a situation where he was losing then he would do what the Dems ACTUALLY DID in 2016-2017 to him. Here is what would have happened if there had been a clear Trump victory:
Game Three: Clear Trump Win. The third scenario started with an Electoral College victory for President Trump (286 to 252), but a popular vote win (52% to 47%) for former Vice President Biden. In this scenario Biden refused to concede, convinced the Democratic governors of two states that Trump won to send separate slates of electors to the Electoral College, encouraged three states to threaten secession, and convinced the House of Representatives to refuse to certify the election and declare Biden the victor.
It's hilarious. The Dems assume that Trump will try to do the same things they did. And if Trump does, they will have west coast states secede from the Union. The last time states tried to secede from the Union we had a civil war...and that really WAS an insurrection.
And note that the Dems planned to send alternate slates of electors. Sigh. They really planned an insurrection. I guess laws only apply to Republicans.
Hillary did concede, on the night of the election: “Last night, I congratulated Donald Trump and offered to work with him on behalf of our country,” Clinton said later Wednesday in her concession. “I hope that he will be a successful president for all Americans. This is not the outcome we wanted or we worked so hard for, and I’m sorry that we did not win this election for the values we share and the vision we hold for our country.”
When did Trump concede to Biden?
He has never done so. He has acknowledged that Biden would be inaugurated and become the next president (obviously, in his mind, illegally), but he has never publicly conceded that he lost the 2020 election. Because he cannot ever be a "loser".
Why does KMW continue to let Sullum ruin what shallow credibility he has here with his overflowing vitriol on any Trump related article? Sullum can't state the facts. He always has to discuss how much he hates a person which imparts a bias even when he actually comes to a correct conclusion.
She’s as big of a lefty hack as he is.
Sullum is such a worthless, disingenuous cunt on this topic.
Yeah, but man does he drive page views as we all comment on his articles.
You beat me to it.
"They believed that, of course, because that is what Trump told them". SMH. What a way to declare half the population to be brainless. Remember how Trump had a commanding lead, then the lights went out at 3 AM and when they came back on Biden had made an impossible surge to take the lead? Any person with the ability to think can at least suspect fraud. No need to be "told".
“How dare you!”
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
Not a single example of President Trump stating he won’t leave office or accept results.
Seriously if this is what passes for reporting at CNN they’re delusional and their viewers too.
Was it reluctantly or strategically decided?
Not the slightest bit reluctantly. But I'm sure they thought they were acting strategically. Alas, "strategic" to a politician means skipping the guy at the head of the line because he's only offering $100, while the second guy in line is offering $1000.
Poor, poor Trumpy-poo is being SEVERELY PUNISHED by (possibly) NOT being allowed to be POTUS, and RULE AND DROOL over us ALL!!! WITHOUT having been duly convicted of insurrection!!! POOR, POOR Trumpy-pooo!!!
Well, “Governator” Arnie Schwarzenegger is ALSO prohibited from being POTUS, and RULING AND DROOLING over us ALL!!! Yet Arnie has NEVER been convicted of the “crime” of being a NON-native-born USA citizen! Which is a requirement for being POTUS!!!
Being jailed, fined, or KILLED by Government Almighty is ONE thing… NOT being allowed to becum a Government Almighty Power Pig, to Rule us All, is a TOTALLY different thing!!!
Would you whining crybabies PLEASE fuck the hell OFF?!?!
What shall we make of a potential POTUS-oaf taking an oaf-oath to “support and defend the USA Constitution” when said POTUS-oaf has DEMON-strated, repeatedly, by word and by deed, that it-shit is an ENEMA of said USA Constitution? FOOLS want to make a JOKE out of the USA Constitution, by putting The Joker into orifice!!!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
You’re citing CNN here.
That tells me everything I need to know.
John Smith says Hunter Biden art is a WONDERFUL way to buy influence! More news at 11:00!!!
Hunter Biden art does concern me, to be clear about it. However, this is an opportune time to call attention to the hyper-partisans, who will “refute” what you say, by pointing out that your source is “from the wrong tribe”!
Leftist media bias by Vox is a fib sometimes! Hunter Biden art…
https://www.vox.com/2021/8/3/22601671/hunter-biden-art-sales-walter-shaub “Why Obama’s former ethics czar is highly critical of Hunter Biden’s lucrative art sales … There have been many bad-faith “scandals” linked to the president’s son. Walter Shaub thinks this one should be taken seriously.
I wonder if the Trumpaloos will now show up to say that Vox is liberally biased, and can't be trusted? This here “Vox” article MUST mean that Hunter Biden is a GREAT artist, and there are NO opportunities for corruption, here!
https://www.allsides.com/news-source/vox-news-media-bias
“VOX” rated as far-left as is allowed… The needle is pegged!
PROOF, then, that Hunter Biden art is of NO concern to stalwart conservatives and Trumpaloos! (Since Vox always lies, of course).
Well at least you admit you rely on grossly outdated and debunked "far-left" articles to reach your totally non-tribal professions of faith.
Well, at least You Perfectly Admit that You Perfectly torture, and then drink the blood of, the pure and innocent little new-born Christian babies, Evil Witch-Bitch!
Here ya go, right from the orange one's own Truth Social: https://truthsocial.com/users/realDonaldTrump/statuses/109449803240069864
No, a bunch of unarmed yahoos is not an insurrection. However if Trump loses this next election I wouldn't count on his followers leaving their guns at home.
Three hours earlier , same page:
The Flimsy RICO Case Against Atlanta's Cop City Protestors
Law enforcement officials appear to have tarred ad hoc bands of protesters as members of an organized criminal movement.
JOE LANCASTER | 12.21.2023 12:15 PM
I wish people would stop using the term "unarmed" as a stand-in for completely defenseless victims. Whether or not someone has a gun or not has no bearing on whether they are dangerous or whether they intend to say... murder the vice president and/or members of congress.
Oh please. What are they going to do, beat them to death? No, that was not an insurrection. Next time will be different.
Oh yeah, forgot about the assault fire extinguishers and zip ties.
And dirty looks. Those are especially insurrectiony.
THEY PUT THEIR FEET UP ON HER DESK!!!
Mean Tweets.
They symbolically set up a gallows on the lawn, yes. There have been symbolic guillotines set up in front of the white house before. It's not evidence that there was a plan to use the damn thing.
Never mind the idea that our elected officials aren't some sent from God ruling class and they should always have the fear that the people will remove them from power, forcibly if necessary. That's the whole point of the Thomas Jefferson quote about the tree of liberty.
You should try out Mexico. They're big on murdering politicians there.
Other than AOC, which politician even got close to being murdered on j6?
I don't need to work on any other country. I think I'll stay right here and clean up my own.
Fuck off you ignorant lefty cunt. Should we start counting up the number of times and places your leftist stormtroopers have stormed the capitol, annexed territory, setup symbolic props of violence? Should you and all of your allies be held to this standard or are you just a hypocritical cunt?
I didn't say they SHOULD be murdered, I said they should be scared of the people removing them from power. Especially if they are being petty fucking tyrants.
Oh, and it's not the people of Mexico rising up against tyrannical politicians and killing them, it's mob bosses taking out their competition.
I’ll admit. I enjoyed the nervous looks on congressmen/women faces that day.
Of course, now seeing just how riddled with agent provocateurs J6 actually was, I wonder if even I saw what I thought I saw on their faces. Maybe it was dupers delight.
It’s not evidence that there was a plan to use the damn thing.
The prime evidence would be the mob shouting "Hang Mike Pence" while they pushed their way into the capitol building, where Mike Pence was, with the thoroughly expressed intention to stop him from validating the electoral college count. The idea that they were just there for a tour or to "peacefully protest" is beyond ludicrous. Millions of people watched it live on TV.
There’s some other footage millions of people ought to see.
So much bullshit in one paragraph.
The prime evidence would be the mob shouting “Hang Mike Pence” while they pushed their way into the capitol building,
They weren't shouting it as they breached the building. There were some people chanting it as they marched toward the Capitol building, but it wasn't a chant by people shouting as they were ramming in glass windows. In fact, if you've seen the video, you'll see that a lot of people pushing against the cops were yelling nasty things at the cops. If there was one persistent chant that may have happened the whole time, it was "Stop the Steal."
with the thoroughly expressed intention to stop him from validating the electoral college count.
That's not a thoroughly expressed intention at all. There was some very disorganization discussion among a few groups who were present in which they had vague objectives. The vast majority were there protesting in an attempt to show that they believed the election was stolen and wished to make their voices heard. There's absolutely nothing "Clearly expressed" about the intentions of any of the rioters.
The idea that they were just there for a tour or to “peacefully protest” is beyond ludicrous.
I never said or implied people showed up thinking they'd get a tour through the Capitol. I don't think this is a belief anyone had. But some people did end up walking through the capitol "like tourists" after they followed the crowd and realized that Capitol Police were letting them inside. Thousands of people did show up just to peacefully protest and believed they were behaving in an appropriately legal manner.
Millions of people watched it live on TV.
Most of the video people were watching live were wide shots from far away. There weren't live mass media reporters streaming from inside the crowd. Millions weren't watching "live" because nobody tuned in when it was just a planned protest, and it took the news that a riot had broken out before anyone tuned in. I would submit that I doubt anyone caught people chanting "Hang Mike Pence" while it was live, certainly from people clashing with the cops.
Beyond that, if you think thousands of people felt a true, murderous rage toward Mike Pence, why has he never been attacked or faced any actual attempt on his life in the over two years since? Where did all the attempted murderers go? Maybe it's possible they actually weren't that serious about it.
There are two incidents where lefties went to a stage trump was on to try to kill him. That was a far more likely risk than to mike pence at any point.
But I see you watch the J6 hearings on a loop.
Bet you laughed when Trump was moved to the WH bunker as well.
No, it’s your statements that are stupid.
The so-called "gallows" was a shoddy mock-up sized appropriately for a middle school drama club.
No, the next time the "insurrectionists" won't play nice by leaving their guns and ammo at home.
Sure, Rambo. You do that.
It wouldn't have supported anyone's weight. It was 2x4's, cardboard and twine FFS.
But yet even here we have fascist twats purposefully pretending it was real rather than symbolic, despite the fucking sign on it saying otherwise.
The question is who is the they that did that as it was done early in the morning then cameras show them getting coffee across from an FBI building. Hours before anyone else got there.
However if Trump loses this next election I wouldn’t count on his followers leaving their guns at home.
Please. All the violence and destruction and assaults and arson were from the hands of Biden supporters. MAGA never rioted and burned downtowns and set cop cars aflame. You know it.
Do you have any proof that those who rioted and burned downtowns and set cop cars aflame are Biden supporters or is that just what your fervid imagination imagines?
Oh, you’re parody.
Or a CNN viewer. It's so hard to tell nowadays. Bloody Poe's law.
Biden. Or possibly CPUSA.
I take it their chanting and signs aren't admissible as evidence to you because their chants and signs were pretty nasty. Also when they were bashing in the heads of people wearing red hats that was kinda telling.
We ALL know it, bc Maxine Waters said so ‘get in their faces’.
Because ‘if we don’t get what we want, we’ll burn it to the ground’ was said live on TV.
And many, many more statements from Biden supporters advocating violence against Trump & Trump voters specifically.
The Colorado Supreme Court's reasoning in deciding that Trump is constitutionally disqualified from running for president seems iffy.
I come for the forceful repudiation of unconstitutional lawfare to block unfavorable candidates from participating in elections, I stay for the warmed over climate change carbon-market mitigation articles.
Hardly forceful. Mushy at best, like a limp-fingered handshake. I almost regret accepting the gesture.
Adjust sarcasm meter.
Don't get me killed, new guy.
*Nardz glances sideways at Paul*
For Sullum that is about as forceful as you're going to get in decrying leftist abuses.
Why would Biden get a big boost from Trump's disqualification? He beat him one handily.
They want to run against Trump. This is why they keep doing this
Meanwhile if Republicans pulled their heads out of their asses and nominate Haley, she completely curb stomps Biden
lolz
I believe this is called concern trolling but Jeremy.
He’ll never make it as a loyalist editor here going straight for the clitoris. He needs to practice foreplay before pushing Haley.
Haley will never get nominated because she's said unflattering things about Trump.
the warmongering sociopath parts don't count.
Sarc initially supported our involvement in Ukraine. Warmongering isn’t one of his concerns.
Never mind that she's a neocon warmonger who's basically John McCain in a skirt.
Most people like that. Remember Trump was an oddball for not sending the military around the world. One of the few things I give him credit him for.
You and 75 million of your fellow voters. Probably more, if you count the ones the Democrat voting officers threw in the trash or changed to Biden.
It was over 80 million.
Most people like that.
That must be why she's polling at 13%.
Just don't call sarc a neocon for cheerleading every neocon and wishing for the return of the GOP to neocons.
No one has ever accused you of being smart or honest, that's for sure.
You’re confused drunky. That’s you. You stupid piece of shit pussy.
Noecon Nikki is the Republican we can reluctantly vote for.
She should partner with Mattel and license a collection of Barbie style dolls in her image. NeoCon Nikki could be the one offered at launch. Alongside an Oval Office play set. Complete with a hotline to SAC and the nuclear football.
Soon the daughters of elites and elite wannabes can have their daughters playing ‘Nuclear Armageddon Girlboss’ with their friends.
"Neocon Nikki"
I like to give her Jeb!'s exclamation point.
Nikki!
She's earned it.
No way are we putting that crazy chick in charge.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Meanwhile if Republicans pulled their heads out of their asses and nominate Haley, she completely curb stomps Biden
Haley is an establishment neocon. Democrats would wipe the floor with her. And in the unlikely event that she won, she would be little different from Biden.
Haley might win SC. Much anywhere else and no.
"NeverTrumpers" will not return to the GOP for any reason and Trump supporters won't support a hawk.
Are you stoned? Dick Chaney in 3 inch heels couldn't win against Hillary Clinton.
https://www.salon.com/2021/04/11/trumps-big-lie-and-hitlers-is-this-how-americas-slide-into-totalitarianism-begins/
Trump's Big Lie and Hitler's: Is this how America's slide into totalitarianism begins?
The above is mostly strictly factual, with very little editorializing. When I post it, the FACTS never get refuted… I only get called names. But what do you expect from morally, ethically, spiritually, and intellectually bankrupt Trumpturds?
Totalitarians want to turn GOP into GOD (Grand Old Dicktatorshit).
Oh, go fuck off, NaziSqrlsy.
I read the article and it's not that far off base. Trump's Deranged Supporters (TDS) have indeed bought a Big Lie. What remains to be seen is what happens over the next few years. It won't surprise me if the next insurrection is real.
Do you have a problem with that?
Yeah, I do. This is the only country in the world that has had a peaceful transition of power for hundreds of years. It's part of what makes this nation great. I'd hate to see that thrown away because a sore loser told a Big Lie.
You really have a stunted little nugget of a mind, don’t you?
We do know for a fact that the Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton) commissioned an intelligence dossier for the purpose of opening the whole Russian Collusion®™ investigation, and lied about the source of the funding.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/05/17/assorted-ethics-observations-on-the-durham-report-part-ii-the-substance/
"Barack Obama and Joe Biden actively participated in the scheme, as McCarthy’s last paragraph above reminds us. This was genuinely impeachable conduct, far, far worse than the contrived grounds for Trump’s two impeachments."- Jack Marshall
Trump is entitled to give payback.
That is not a fact. She paid for the Steele dossier to get dirt on Trump to use during the campaign. The Russian collusion schtick was just a side benefit added later.
According to the Durham report John McCain and Senate Democrats tapped political operative and ex-FBI agent, Daniel Jones, to investigate the Steele Dossier. Jones investigation was bankrolled entirely by George Soros, the report says.
It also says that at that point McCain and the FBI already knew the report was phony garbage, and admitted as much in private emails, but they went ahead anyway.
You.
Are.
A.
TDS.
Addled.
Steaming.
Pile.
Of.
Shit.
Fuck off and die; your parents will thank you.
The Obama administration spied on Trump’s campaign, them his shadow government continued their coup attempt for his entire presidency, including framing General Flynn to get him out of the way.
Peaceful like that?
The question no on wants to address is what do we do about the democrats? We’re long past solving the democrat problem with elections and legal action. They control too much of the administrative state and are too entrenched in corporate America. Including control of mos tod the media.
This cannot continue. Do any of you really believe we can limp along indefinitely with so many million free range Marxists?
Peaceful transition for hundreds of years?
Obama did not peacefully transfer power. He set up a fraudulent Russia hoax to handcuff Trump for most of his admin.
I sure would. There are plenty of people of problems with our current government, but exactly none of them would be solved if it was replaced by the delusional halfwits that stormed the Capitol on 1/6, and plenty of things would immediately get worse. And, of course, if their attempt failed, as it would probably would, because they're, as I said, delusional halfwits, it would serve as an excuse for the present establishment to gut the Constitution.
Wow, that "edit" button sure is a tease.
Wasn't the Big Lie what Hitler accused the Jews of doing?
Well, sure! And Trump accused the EVIL Demon-Craps of a Big Lie involved in STEALING Trump's Sacred Erections!!! These dual FACTS then justify Hitler and Trump alike!!! One and the same-shame, obliviously!!! Shame on ALL of the Big Liars; Jews and Demon-Craps alike!!!
I told ya so!!!!
The Sad Saga of the Stolen Erections
And lo, it came to pass, that Tim the Enchanter blew upon His Magic Flute, and led me to a secret cave (the Cave of Caerbannog), whereupon mystic runes carved into the very living rock foretold of a day to come.
This sad, sad day has now manifested itself, just as foretold. The Promised One had been delivered to us, and was to fertilize His Queen, Spermy-Stormy Daniels, in an amazing scene; a glaze of Vaseline. Their offspring were to be called Strumpets… Which is a concatenation of Stormy and Trump. They were to number in the millions… About 332 million; enough for all residents of the USA to be issued one Strumpet per each resident, to sit on his or her right shoulder, and make sure that each resident stayed WAAAY Righteous. Each Strumpet was to progressively exert more and more Righteousness Control over each resident, by covering them in Strumpet Vines.
Sad to say, the Bad Bider-Grunch stole Trumpsmas AND Trump’s Erections! The stolen erections prevented the birth of the 332 million Strumpets, in the world’s WORST mass murder (genocide) so far! Even Saint Babbitt could NOT save the Strumpets!
This is the Sad Tale of the Demise of the USA!
"Wasn’t the Big Lie what Hitler accused the Jews of doing?"
Yup, but that's not going to stop Shillsy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie#Hitler's_description
Somehow Trump using the word "blood poisoning" is totally Hitler, but actually adopting one of Hitler's arguments magically isn't.
Discussing evil makes one evil, then, right, evil bitch? YOUR Perfect Evil, for example, must NOT be openly discussed!!! It is EVIL to cast light upon the DARK AND THE DARKNESS... The evil ways of evil-doers, right, right-wing wrong-nut-slut? Do NOT let people know about evil, or YOU will be evil! (So say the evil nut-sluts, that is.)
Hey wait a minute! YOU just tried to show readers that I, SQRLSY One, am "evil" in the eyes of Mammary-Necrophilia-Farter-Fuhrer!!! You just tried to shine your so-called "light"!
YOU JUST ASSIMILATED MY "EVIL" WAYS!!! I ASSIMILATE YOU!!! BWAH-HA-HA!!!!
https://biblehub.com/luke/11-35.htm
New Living Translation
Make sure that the light you think you have is not actually darkness.
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:
Hi Fantastically Talented Author:
Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.
Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .
Thank You! -Reason Staff
Sqrlsy, shove Tim's wand up your ass.
Jokes on you since it may already be parked in his happy tunnel.
Someone pass me the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.
On the slight chance there's anyone here tempted to buy into SQRLSY's shtick? His constant sense of panic that stolen election BS will lead to actual violence?
Well, don't buy it. SQRLSY is a fraud. His concern for election denial is strictly partisan.
In fact he was so unmoved by his own side's election denial (RUSSIA HACKED THE ELECTION) and domestic terrorism / attempted mass murder (James Hodgkinson) that he just, sorta .......... forgot they happened!
I don’t recall any “HillaryPanzees gone apeshit” and saying “kill him with his own gun”? Got any cites on that?
SQRLSY didn't think I could provide an example of his side *threatening* to kill anyone.
Because SQRLSY forgot his side produced a shooter who tried to massacre Congressional Republicans - at the height of #SheWon lunacy!
I stand by the below! Refute it if you can!
I don’t recall any “HillaryPanzees gone apeshit” and saying “kill him with his own gun”? Got any cites on that?
One of my goals is to show that power-lusting Trumptards slobber over the prospect of getting MOAH POWAH for themselves, at ANY costs! Ethics, principles, people, law and order, a decent future for most people… ALL can and WILL be sacrificed for MOAH POWAH for Trumpturds!
READ the below and hang your tiny brainless, power-lusting shit-head in SHAME for always taking the side of Trumpanzees, power-luster-pig!
https://www.jpost.com/international/kill-him-with-his-own-gun-dc-cop-talks-about-the-riot-655709 also https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/28/michael-fanone-trump-gop-riots/
‘Kill him with his own gun’ – DC cop talks about Capitol riot
DC Police officer Michael Fanone: I had a choice to make: Use deadly force, which would likely result with the mob ending his life, or trying something else.
“Pro-law-and-order” Trumpturds take the side of trumpanzees going apeshit, making cops beg for their lives! For trying to defend democracy against mobocracy! Can you slime-wads sink ANY lower?!?!
Beyond that, whatabout that them thar whatabouts? Whatabout Hillary? Whatabout OJ Simpson?
How many brain cells does it take to run a socio-political simulation on the following:
Judge and Jury: “Murderer, we find you guilty of murder! 20 years in the hoosegow for YOU! Now OFF with ye!”
Murderer: “But OJ Simpson got off for murder, why not me? We’re all equal, and need to be treated likewise!”
Judge and Jury: “Oh, yes, sure, we forgot about that! You’re free to go! Have a good life, and try not to murder too many people, please! Goodbye!”
Now WHERE does this line of thinking and acting lead to? Think REALLY-REALLY HARD now, please! What ABOUT OJ Simpson, now? Can we make progress towards peace & justice in this fashion?
(I for one say, the Law should have put "the Squeeze" on OJ!)
Nobody reads your crap.
You're just wasting oxygen now.
Now?
He's been wasting oxygen for decades.
Nah, I don't buy into NaziSqrlsy's shit. Just flag it for review and move along.
The review file is round and has a fire burning inside, just so you know.
Trash can on fire?
With Sqrlsy, it’s a dumpster fire.
Im told he enjoys a good shit flambé.
I can't imagine why people don't use the mute button more.
Does SQRSLY actually type words? I don't read them.
No. He types little grey boxes with nothing in them.
The squirrel will be sad when nobody shows up during family visiting hour on Christmas Day.
Trigger warning, former Reason contributor Brendan O'Neill interviews Matthew Goodwin on the migration crisis and the revolt against the New Elites.
Good listen.
Great concept "asymmetric muticulturalism": You and your country aren't allowed to have a cultural identity, but all the people coming in are, and we must celebrate it and protect it.
https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1737898944724893943?t=-GA8NPE1kVFTF_F3n5HUGQ&s=19
More "recruits" for Joe Biden's army of illegal voters. No women, no children, all military-age males.
He's ushered millions of them into our heartland, a cancer that will metastasize until the America we know is dead.
[Video]
Just because they're wrong doesn't mean you must be automatically right. There is tons of evidence that those immigrants integrate into our "culture" very quickly and add to, not detract from, the wealth and dynamism of America. A polite person respects the cultural identify of others, but maybe you are not a polite person? On the other hand there is also tons of evidence that your misguided attempts to keep America culturally pure at all costs has cost us a great deal of grief and continues to represent a self-inflicted wound that we may never completely recover from. Go peddle to someone who lives entirely in your echo chamber. Anyone who can think knows you people are arrogant know-nothings who can't even achieve their own stupid goals.
What is different is that in the past legal immigrants to this country were not given billions of dollars to pay for their housing, food and medical care. Immigrants were supposed to be self sufficient and be able to support themselves or have family who could sponsor and support them. It will be generations before the "wealth" you say immigrants create will cover the costs of the illegal immigrants that Biden and his administration have allowed to overwhelm our country.
It will be generations before the “wealth” you say immigrants create will cover the costs of the illegal immigrants that Biden and his administration have allowed to overwhelm our country.
Fucking vermin. Why won't anyone do something about those poisonous little rats.
You such at sarcasm worse than sarc.
He’s not trying to be sarcastic, he’s just straight lying.
You wouldn't understand sarcasm or snark even if you were hit upside the head with either.
Yes we know. When Trump says something outrageous that makes your team look bad, suddenly it's "snark" and "sarcasm".
He's saying you don't know how to do it, not that Trump was being sarcastic...
Bingo. Jeffy makes a neutron star look airy by comparison.
Like not admit them into the US? And do you believe we owe them anything?
"Fucking vermin. Why won’t anyone do something about those poisonous little rats."
Are they also deplorables and bitter clingers, nazijeff? Maybe trash people?
They are still pushing the use if vermin makes you Hitler? The elite media loves that term to describe trump and his supporters.
https://twitter.com/0rf/status/1732746683274932259
The solution to that is to stop giving them money, not to continue to try and stop and fail to stop immigration!
Begone from this earth, groomer.
No. The evidence is pretty clear they deduct from the wealth. Costing 100s of billions a year currently. Even legal immigrants consume more government welfare programs than citizens, not including illegal immigrants. The facts aren't on your side.
"consume more government welfare programs"
What does that even mean?
There is no way that immigrants use more welfare than native-born citizens, there are just way more native-born citizens than there are immigrants.
Social Security and Medicare are bankrupting the government, and Jesse say welfare, which is mostly state not federal, is the real problem.
The mayors of Chicago, Denver, Houston, Los Angeles and New York are pressing to meet with President Joe Biden about getting federal help in managing the surge of migrants they say are arriving in their cities with little to no coordination, support or resources from his administration.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/mayors-of-5-big-cities-press-for-meeting-with-biden-to-address-surge-of-migrants
Is welfare still paid for with taxes? Oh and federal welfare spending was 19% ( $1.215 trillion) of the federal budget in 2022
https://federalsafetynet.com/welfare-budget/#:~:text=The%20welfare%20budget%20of%20the,welfare%20program%20is%20shown%20below.
Are you too stupid to understand what per capital is or are you just a lying leftist POS? Both seems to be the safest answer.
Are you paying any attention to what's happening in Chicago and New York?
They’re not Americans, so who gives a fuck. Regardless, you’re wrong, or lying. Maybe some of both.
It's always both.
More intentional avoidance of legal vs illegal immigrants. Don't pretend we are as stupid as you.
It seems the memo went out to do so. Jeff and sarc have been doing the same the last few weeks.
There is tons of evidence that those immigrants integrate into our “culture” very quickly and add to, not detract from, the wealth and dynamism of America.
No there isn't. And secondly, different countries have very different experiences from immigration. Also, the speed and volume of the integration is also paramount, as is the methods in which the cultures and countries have policies which either integrate, or work against integration.
Not even Reason pushes the 'cost-free' trope any more, because that's become facially untrue. If mass immigration was not only cost-free but a boon to the economy of New York and Chicago, why would New York and Chicago be turning buses away? They should be asking for more, not fewer.
There is tons of evidence that those immigrants integrate into our “culture” very quickly
I mean, just check out Dearborn, or Minneapolis.
You're equivocating on all sorts of terms: "immigrant", "our culture", "dynamism", etc.
Fact is that the US has been flooded with illiberal, socialist-leaning, low-skilled illegal migrants. Their presence does not benefit Americans, either economically nor culturally.
https://twitter.com/VDAREJamesK/status/1737969273589375179?t=YbUR3h5n-DfYSolOGloSag&s=19
Wrote about this in 2018. “Failure migration” is one of the most important things happening today. It’s not just that rulers have no interest in solving problems - Third World nations benefit from failure. It’s a global race to the bottom
[Link]
First of all I could not care less whether they "benefit" Americans culturally, but you're simply wrong (or lying) about the economic benefits to us. Secondly, "illiberal, socialist-leaning, low-skilled" immigrants have been flooding the US for more than two centuries, creating the society whose purity you suddenly want to protect from more immigration now. And finally, almost all of the "problems" you allege from illegal immigrants is BECAUSE you have declared them to be illegal. Return to your xenophobic echo chamber where someone actually believes your crap.
No, you are lying about the economic benefits.
Illegal immigrants have not been flooding the country for two centuries. Furthermore, the low skilled immigrants that used to come came into a country that wasn't very developed, didn't have a social welfare state and that was mostly agricultural/rural.
Today, the US is more urbanized and more developed than Europe.
If you are right and illegals are such a boon to our economy then why do Democrat mayors freek out when they get a fresh shipment of them strait from the border crossing? If they are such a boon then why aren't those Democrat mayors paying to import more of them from border states? It seems that the mayor's of these sanctuary cities don't agree with you that illegals are a wonderful addition to the multicultural societies they wish to build.
And just like that, you expose how the poster is running over for D’s by lying about illegal migrants.
The poster tries claiming illegal immigrants are a boon, but the proof is in the pudding, of the D’s claiming the illegal immigrants are a burden, and a crisis for their cities.
Poster is trying to lie.
I am somewhat neutral on the illegal vs legal immigrant debate and what their value is. When I ran a business in Colorado I put Se habla Español in my ad and I loved the illegals. They didn't bounce checks or bitch about my prices. They paid cash, didn't ask for receipts and accepted my broken Spanish as good enough for trying. As a locksmith I didn't worry about an illiterate peasant who didn't speak English taking my job.
However I do see the illegals as giving poor blacks in the inner cities an excuse to stay unemployed and on welfare. As long as illegals are filling the economic niche of illiterate peasants the inner cities will be filled with blacks with excuses. So yeah, I really want to know why those big cities with large unemployed black populations are so down on accepting illegals with open arms since they keep telling telling us how great they are.
Wait, what? You're actually pretending that what Democrat mayors say actually means anything? In any event, I am not the one trying to claim that illegals are a boon to our economy. They cannot be a boon to "our" economy as long as "we" support them with welfare while keeping them vulnerable by declaring them to be illegal. My position is and has always been that they WOULD be a boon to our economy if we legalize immigration and stop giving them free welfare money. But by all means keep setting up straw men so you can enjoy knocking them back down again.
Sorry, I didn't think I was replying to you. I can't tell who I was replying to because the lines wiggle a lot when I've got saki in me. I'm fairly sure I asked someone who was puking up that tired old line about illegals being a benefit to our nation.
all I want for Christmas is for one of you with web influence to stand up to the fucking truth.
I'm doing all I can!
*huffs*
Sullum, stand up for truth when TDS works well? Surely, you must be joking.
That would result in losing DC cocktail party invites. #priorities
I laugh at the idea that Sullum has "influence."
It's time to really scare creatures like Jacob.
Let them know what real fear feels like.
REAL fear? You mean, like, thoughts of VAST genocides committed by Trumpy-Poo and His VEEP, Nadless Nardless the Nasty NAZI?
(Nadless Nardless the Nasty NAZI, I hate to break it to you, but Emperor Trump is NOT gonna let you fuck Sperm Daniels, Who Is Our Queen, Drenched in Vaseline!!! SNOT gonna happen! Sorry!!!)
NaziSqrlsy calling others a "Nazi"? That's rich.
In case folks think ITL is resorting to hyperbole, Reichsführer of the Sqrlsstaffel,ᛋᛋqrlsy really is one:
SQRLSY One 6 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Hitler lied (maybe, it’s not a lie if you believe it. Or if it turns out to be true). Maybe the German Jews DID stab Germany in the back in WW I!
The truth is WHATEVER YOU BELIEVE!
SQRLSY One
September.30.2020 at 12:53 pm
Yes! This FURTHER proves that Hitler was NOT a racist!
Since even Hitler wasn’t a racist, we can pretty firmly conclude that racism isn’t a “thing” at all!
SQRLSY One
November.1.2020 at 8:51 am
Here, this is a pretty good match! Every asshole is a good, right, and TRUE, benevolent asshole!
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/hitler
“My spirit will rise from the grave and the world will see I was right.”
― Adolf Hitler
SQRLSY One
November.15.2020 at 3:00 pm
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/34787-germans-who-wish-to-use-firearms-should-join-the-ss
“Germans who wish to use cheap plastic lung flutes should join the SS or the SA — ordinary citizens don’t need these deadly lung flutes, as their having cheap plastic lung flutes doesn’t serve the State.”
― Heinrich Himmler
SQRLSY One
April.4.2022 at 8:14 pm
All Hail the book-burners! Sieg Heil!
That looks like a threat. I assume he's part of the cancer you want to cut out of the nation. Maybe murder him with poison and call it chemotherapy?
Sqrlsy and sarcasmic types too.
Make examples great again!
Who else do you want to murder?
Nadless Nardless the Nasty NAZI also wants to murder Jesus, Gandhi, and MLK Junior! Shit is part and parcel of the snidely superior, narcissistic aspects of sociobiologically programmed human nature!
The intelligent, well-informed, and benevolent members of tribes have ALWAYS been feared and resented by those who are made to look relatively worse (often FAR worse), as compared to the advanced ones. Especially when the advanced ones denigrate tribalism. The advanced ones DARE to openly mock “MY Tribe’s lies leading to violence against your tribe GOOD! Your tribe’s lies leading to violence against MY Tribe BAD! VERY bad!” And then that’s when the Jesus-killers, Mahatma Gandhi-killers, Martin Luther King Jr.-killers, etc., unsheath their long knives!
“Do-gooder derogation” (look it up) is a socio-biologically programmed instinct. SOME of us are ethically advanced enough to overcome it, using benevolence and free will! For details, see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ and http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/ .
In conclusion, troglodytes such ass Nadless Nardless the Nasty NAZI, thanks for helping me to prove my points!
Then they crucified Jesus, 'cause Jesus made them look bad! ALSO because Jesus made them look bad FOR THEIR STUPID, HIDE-BOUND TRIBALISM! "The parable of the Good Samaritan" was VERY pointed, because the Samaritans were of the WRONG tribe, in the eyes of "Good Jews" of the day.
You’re the pussy who applauded the murder of Ashli Babbit, while simultaneously raving against cops in every other instance.
That word you keep using - "incendiary" - doesn't mean what you seem to think it means! Words are not incendiary devices. Molotov cocktails are incendiary devices. Also, none of the things you cited as "misconduct" are illegal: putting pressure on officials; speaking your opinions - even false opinions; refusing to accept your loss in an election and giving a speech to your political supporters; none of those are illegal and some of them are even protected by the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights! Although I am not a supporter of Donal Trump and do not want him to be President of the United States again - or even dog catcher in Poughkeepsie - Reason should not even appear to support for a moment the abuse of power that is being brought to bear on him in a blatantly partisan war on "the deplorables."
Poor, poor Trumpy-poo is being SEVERELY PUNISHED by (possibly) NOT being allowed to be POTUS, and RULE AND DROOL over us ALL!!! WITHOUT having been duly convicted of insurrection!!! POOR, POOR Trumpy-pooo!!!
Well, “Governator” Arnie Schwarzenegger is ALSO prohibited from being POTUS, and RULING AND DROOLING over us ALL!!! Yet Arnie has NEVER been convicted of the “crime” of being a NON-native-born USA citizen! Which is a requirement for being POTUS!!!
Being jailed, fined, or KILLED by Government Almighty is ONE thing… NOT being allowed to becum a Government Almighty Power Pig, to Rule us All, is a TOTALLY different thing!!!
Is Arnie Schwarzenegger ALSO suffering from blatantly partisan wars against the deplorables? WHERE are Arnie's defenders?
I could not care less whether Trump is inconvenienced by the flames of war he himself fanned. What worries me is that a state Supreme Court is no longer even bothering to try to even thinly disguise their opinions as legally or logically based. Until recently appellate judges had to resort to dozens of pages and tens of thousands of logically tortured rationales to come to the conclusions that they started out to support. Now they seem to be saying, "Because we say so, that's why!" This does not bode well for what's left of the Constitution or any semblance of Constitutionally limited government. But I'm sure you already knew that and prefer to substitute your own scorn for facts or logic.
What shall we make of a potential POTUS-oaf taking an oaf-oath to “support and defend the USA Constitution” when said POTUS-oaf has DEMON-strated, repeatedly, by word and by deed, that it-shit is an ENEMA of said USA Constitution? FOOLS want to make a JOKE out of the USA Constitution, by putting The Joker into orifice!!!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
Trump's own words SHOW Him to be an ENEMA of said USA Constitution!!! THESE are the FACTS!!!
Make whatever you like of that, but I know it was a rhetorical question, not a serious one. I have personally taken an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies both foreign and domestic. The problem arises as to who has become an enemy of the Constitution? Are the Members of Congress who knowingly passed unconstitutional laws enemies of the Constitution? Is the President of the United States an enemy of the Constitution for knowingly signing unconstitutional laws and enemy of the Constitution? Are the officials who enforce unconstitutional laws and regulations passed by Congress and signed by the President, in government agencies created by Federal law in violation of the clear words and meaning of the Constitution enemies of the Constitution? Are the Supreme Court justices who hand down rulings using tortured logic, legislating from the Bench to excuse violating the clear meaning of the Constitution and the intent of the Framers - are THEY enemies of the Constitution of the United States of America too? How am I supposed to keep my promise to support and defend the Constitution in the face of that widespread, persistent and pervasive misconduct by all of those enemies?
They (the ones you list) are yea verily ALL ENEMAS of said USA Constitution!!! HOWEVER...
Der TrumpfenFarter-Fuhrer has gathered ALL of The Rings of Power, to rule over them ALL!!! And hence... To Rule and Drool over ALL of us!!!
This isn't about Trump, you fucking retard. This is basic legal and democratic principles.
So then basic legal and democratic principles are a suicide pact for democracy? A ... "Trump Card" for mobocracy? The USA Constitution be DAMNED, then?
This is pretty much the most anti-democratic thing a government in the US has ever done.
Trump is fucking old. If elected he will have little or no power to change laws or the constitution. Even if he is the literal Hitler you seem to think he is, American democracy will survive as the pathetic shitshow it already has been for a long time.
Remember the freakouts about Reagan turning *gasp* 70 while in office?
American democracy died in 2020
This sort of banana republic shenanigans to try to bar a candidate you do not like from standing for election is representative democracy being murdered.
It would have been illegal if Trump had refused to cede power on inauguration day, has fought and contested Biden's actual ascent to power. He didn't do that. He didn't order the military to arrest Biden and declare Martial Law in DC. Those might be actions in which "refusing to accept his loss" would be actual insurrection.
Dude, can you imagine Trump as a dog catcher? He’d be the bestest, smartest dog catcher. His kennel would be uge!
They'd be a dog run, and I swear you'll never see one as beautiful, but it'll be a mile long. That's right. A whole mile long.
And it will be fantastic. Kentucky Bluegrass the entire way. That's the best grass for dogs you know. They can eat some without getting sick and it doesn't die back from the pee. Lush and beautiful. The best.
You made me laugh too! Stop it stop it stop it!!
You made me laugh! Stop that!
Trump has not been convicted in a criminal court of law of "insurrection". An article of impeachment is equivalent to an indictment, but without a conviction in the Senate is effectively the same as a "not guilty" or hung jury verdict. I expect that it is not the Colorado Supreme Court's scope of work to be a criminal trial jury. Therefore it does not seem their decision stands on much legitimate authority.
For all of Trump perhaps being the turd in our political punch bowl, his enemies seem incredibly determined to stand this country's institutions on their heads and the law into pretzels in order to supposedly save the republic from Trump. I find the reaction to Trump to be more concerning to the health and well being of our government than Trump himself.
"Trump has not been convicted in a criminal court of law of “insurrection”."
Well, “Governator” Arnie Schwarzenegger is ALSO prohibited from being POTUS, and RULING AND DROOLING over us ALL!!! Yet Arnie has NEVER been convicted of the “crime” of being a NON-native-born USA citizen! Which is a requirement for being POTUS!!!
Being jailed, fined, or KILLED by Government Almighty is ONE thing… NOT being allowed to becum a Government Almighty Power Pig, to Rule us All, is a TOTALLY different thing!!!
WHY would a sane (and individual-freedoms-respecting, democracy-respecting, non-mobocracy-adoring) individual shed ONE single more tear for The TrumptatorShit-DicktatorShit, ass compared to Arnie Schwarzenegger? I would DEARLY love to know!!!
Wow. That was incredibly stupid, even for you.
It is simply an established legal fact that Schwarzenegger is a naturalized citizen and therefore not eligible to run for President, as he went through the legal process of immigration and naturalization.
It has not been established by any proper authority that what Trump did was participate in an insurrection or a political protest. The government does not have the authority to strip the rights of citizenship away without due process. Where has Trump been given due process in this matter?
Where has “Governator” Arnie Schwarzenegger been given due process in this matter? Has he EVER had his day in court? How many tears have YOU personally shed about that? And WHY must democracy (ass opposed to mobocracy) be a suicide pact?
The immigration and naturalization procedures are the due process a naturalized citizen receives. Therefore there is no reason to shed tears.
Again, this is really an absurd comparison.
The Colorado courts' procedures are the due process that a non- naturalized citizen receives. Therefore there is no reason to shed tears... About POOR TRUMPY-POO (the Old Gray Pooper-On the USA Constitution) being oh SOOO unjustly NOT being allowed to rule and drool over us all!!!
What shall we make of a potential POTUS-oaf taking an oaf-oath to “support and defend the USA Constitution” when said POTUS-oaf has DEMON-strated, repeatedly, by word and by deed, that it-shit is an ENEMA of said USA Constitution? FOOLS want to make a JOKE out of the USA Constitution, by putting The Joker into orifice!!!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
Trump’s own words SHOW Him to be an ENEMA of said USA Constitution!!! THESE are the FACTS!!!
You could just look at his birth certificate.
Papers ARE Magic, yes! AND the courts in Colorado just issued some (FACT-based!) Magic Papers declaring that Trump is an insurrectionist, and habitually and shitually shits ALL over the USA Constitution! Why should the latter Magic Papers be ANY less valid than the former (birth certificate) Magic Papers?
Don't forget...
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
Trump’s own words SHOW Him to be an ENEMA of said USA Constitution!!! THESE are the FACTS!!! ("Theories" of Stolen Erections VASTLY outrank the USA Constitution!!!)
"Wow. That was incredibly stupid, even for you."
Oh God, I un-muted him to see what he could have typed that would have led to "Stupid, even for you"
My brain hurts after reading that.
Mute restored.
Hey Damiksec, damiskec, and damikesc, and ALL of your other socks…
How is your totalitarian scheme to FORCE people to buy Reason magazines coming along?
Free speech (freedom from “Cancel Culture”) comes from Facebook, Twitter, Tik-Tok, and Google, right? THAT is why we need to pass laws to severely constrict these DANGEROUS companies (which, ugh!, the BASTARDS, put profits above people!)!!! We must pass new laws to retract “Section 230” and FORCE the evil corporations to provide us all (EXCEPT for my political enemies, of course!) with a “UBIFS”, a Universal Basic Income of Free Speech!
So leftist “false flag” commenters will inundate Reason-dot-com with shitloads of PROTECTED racist comments, and then pissed-off readers and advertisers and buyers (of Reason magazine) will all BOYCOTT Reason! And right-wing idiots like Damikesc will then FORCE people to support Reason, so as to nullify the attempts at boycotts! THAT is your ultimate authoritarian “fix” here!!!
“Now, to “protect” Reason from this meddling here, are we going to REQUIRE readers and advertisers to support Reason, to protect Reason from boycotts?”
Yup. Basically. Sounds rough. (Quote damikesc)
(Etc.)
See https://reason.com/2020/06/24/the-new-censors/
(And Asshole Extraordinaire will NEVER take back its' totalitarian bullshit!!!! 'Cause Asshole Extraordinaire is already PERFECT in every way!!!)
This (above damikesc quote) is a gem of the damnedest dumbness of damikesc! Like MANY “perfect in their own minds” asshole authoritarians around here, he will NEVER take back ANY of the stupidest and most evil things that he has written! I have more of those on file… I deploy them to warn other readers to NOT bother to try and reason with the most utterly unreasonable of the nit-wit twits here!
Nothing has changed in over one hundred years with the attempt to stand this country's institutions on their heads, although the target and scale of the attack have changed recently. As long as the enemies of liberty were successful at subverting the Constitution through an endless string of central authority laws, executive orders, continuing resolutions, regulations, regulators, new departments and agencies, and extrajudicial "consent decrees," they were happy to grab power for themselves gradually, a little bit at a time. All of that came to a screeching halt when the deplorables started resisting and even fighting back. As long as the rioters were anarchosocialists and "marginalized populations" they were content to let the violence roll onward. Now that the heavily armed and well-trained resistance is slowly awakening, organizing and manifesting itself to try to stop the rot, panic has set in and the culture wars are rapidly turning into "no holds barred."
I think all the talk of convictions is a pointless distraction. Most former Confederate officials and officers weren't convicted of anything either. That isn't a requirement in the 14th. The problem here is that there was no fucking insurrection. It's absurd to suggest there was.
aye
There was a not insignificant number of former Confederate military members who held office after the war whom no tried to hold this 14th Amendment provision against.
Not requiring a conviction for "insurrection" would seem to be a rather dangerously extraordinary power, as it would not require a very precise definition of what "insurrection" is.
But everyone knew that the Civil War had been one.
Trump telling people to go home peacefully with love in their hearts is not the shelling of Fort Sumter.
It is one thing to look at an officer in the army of a State formally in rebellion and call him an insurrections, it is another to call everyone of an opposing party that protests without weapons an insurrectionist just because.
Much of the body of our laws in the United States is developed by refining such not very precise definitions in the courts over time. Although that may not be the best way to do it, it is sometimes the only way to put well-meaning citizens who want to abide by reasonable laws on notice of what is a violation and what is not. I think it is reasonable to forbid combatants who engaged in insurrection against the United States from holding office for a period of time after the insurrection has been put down. On the other hand, an "insurrection" by combatants engaged in supporting and defending the Constitution against domestic enemies should not be considered to be an insurrection! The winners tend to write the history and make the laws, so ultimately it comes down to one's individual conscience.
Zeb... it is a requirement for congress to legislate the laws of how the 14th is to be executed, see section 5. Congress has passed 2 laws. One was terminated, the other is still active. It can not be blindly read as self executing given section 5.
Nobody in Congress in 1868 needed to issue a "finding" that an insurrection had happened. Everyone knew exactly the thing they were referring to. They left room for Congress to come back and clarify later.
If you're going to use it in reference to something that is NOT the Civil War, you need to hang it on SOMETHING. That's why people are talking about a conviction, because we use legal standards of guilt as a standard for deciding that something is true to a sufficient degree of evidence. You didn't need to propose evidence than an insurrection had happened at the time of the 14th.
The Confederate Officers left a paper trail a mile wide showing they had participated in an insurrection. They were paid for their service to the Confederate States. They were promoted and assigned bodiess of troops. There are pictures of them in Butternut Grey in front of ranks of men similarly dressed. A large body of incontrovertible evidence that they had served under an insurgency.
Lastly, the officers themselves never tried to legally argue that they weren't involved in an armed insurrection. They accepted their situation honorably and admitted their status honestly.
No one at the January 6th riot received pay, was promoted and placed in charge of a body of troops or in any other way has a paper trail that shows them to have joined an insurrection. None of them, to the best of my knowledge, has been charged with insurrection. Most are being convicted of criminal trespass and several varieties of scaring Democrats. I don't think any have pled guilty to a charge of insurrection.
That is the major difference between the American Civil War and the January 9th protest.
No one at the January 6th riot received pay, was promoted and placed in charge of a body of troops or in any other way has a paper trail that shows them to have joined an insurrection.
At least, not outside of the FBI.
Oops, we're not allowed to talk about that!
Well yes. The FBI agents were paid to try and start an insurrection. Fortunately no one was stupid enough to bring all their guns to the peaceful protest.
They bore arms against the USA. _That_ is insurrection. An unruly protest isn't, or else we've had insurrections every year for over 60 years.
For fun, lets say Jan6 was an insurrection. Then so too is the summer 2020 and the CHAZ autonomous zone. We now need to disqualify from office the entire Democrat leadership for supporting these along with about half the Democrats in the country.
But, but, but….CNN & MSNBC & YouTube tells me at the top of every video in a context note that there WAS a massive insurrection. They, they would LIE to me, to push their own (MSM 98% D’s, Social Media basically 100% D’s) agenda, would they?
A Constitutional provision without an implementing act of Congress establishing that violation thereof is a federal criminal offense must be interpreted as a civil matter for which the standards of proof are lower. People like this insisting that Trump hasn't been convicted of insurrection first are simply raising the standards with no basis or adding criteria that isn't there to avoid the outcome. Imagine if every constitutional right that has been violated required the perpetrator (ex: a police officer for wrongful arrest) to be criminally convicted under some related crime before any civil relief could be granted!
Misconduct is alleging election fraud?
Should we expect that attitude will be fairly applied across the political spectrum? I think not.
Ooooooooooooooooooooof
https://twitter.com/DBrodyReports/status/1737850881872384061?t=m585t7D7bbyElFoniMD7lA&s=19
JUST IN: Ron DeSantis tells me his one regret about running in the GOP Primary this year:
Ron DeSantis: "I would say if I could have one thing change, I wish Trump hadn't been indicted on any of this stuff...it distorted the primary...it also just crowded out, I think so much other stuff. And it's sucked out a lot of oxygen."
Brody: "That's interesting. You're saying it made him stronger in a way and it made it made it tougher for you and others?"
DeSantis: "I think for the primary it distorted. Yeah, I think it distorted."
Watch my national report and interview with @RonDeSantis that aired across the country on @700club and @CBNNews here.
[Video]
He should fire every one of his campaign staff out of a cannon.
He really should. He came out of the lockdowns like a superhero and the Disney battle was great. But the worlds shittiest campaign team kept him off big-name podcasts, which was insane, and had him sucking up to the DNC controlled media who already hated him.
Headline over a post by Jake Sullum that I have seen 76 times:
"[Insert name of new case against Trump here] seems iffy."
Just enough wiggle room to sullum to claim he wasn't for state abuses against Trump as he actively cheers them on.
https://twitter.com/Chadwick_Moore/status/1737903942103622013?t=5P3vFeQuITMK2OnBh8X1wA&s=19
He was charged with raping two boys aged 14 and 9, but this is the headline @Newsweek went with.
[Link]
Seems appropriate to me.
— Lying Jeffy
Pluggo certainly approves. He’s also probably jealous.
Well, what were they wearing?
Not clear how SCOTUS will rule. However, Trump’s attorney at the time on the 6th after Trump spoke called for trial by combat. Was the attorney speaking for Trump? Did Trump’s other surrogates assemble and direct the mob including the proud boys and oath keepers? One hopes if this makes it to SCOTUS those questions are answered. That said, Colorado has unique election laws that Gorsuch already ruled on as a lower court judge that allow the state to remove folks from the ballot.
That said, Colorado has unique election laws that Gorsuch already ruled on as a lower court judge that allow the state to remove folks from the ballot.
The Colorado court justified the removal with the 14A; whatever "unique laws" Colorado may have are therefore irrelevant.
Was the attorney speaking for Trump? Did Trump’s other surrogates assemble and direct the mob including the proud boys and oath keepers?
Is that what the latest tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists believe?
What is wrong with the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers? Other than what you have been told to think about them
Good analysis even though i disagree with a few points. I read the entire ruling and the comments put forth by the dissenting Judges. I will point out that the ruling does not say Trump's actions provoked a riot or violence or that those were his goals but rather his goal was to impede or disrupt the process in Congress on 1/6. As the ruling points out, that goal was achieved. I think the Supreme COurt will agree that Trump engaged in an insurrection. The sticking point will be whether or not Trump received due process in Colorado.
So now disrupting congress counts as insurrection? In that case, we've had an awful lot of insurrections that somehow no one noticed.
I can think of 3 insurrection since oct 7th if that is the standard. And think of one by Rep Bowman.
To be found guilty of something, someone should at least be officially charged and offered some semblance of legal defense. Please point out where that occurs in you dipshit opinion regarding SCOTUS and Trump insurrection vs. petition of the government.
"...his goal was to impede or disrupt the process in Congress on 1/6..."
2-bit 'mind reading'
I agree, if impeding and disrupting Congress are the new standards for "insurrection", then even the Stop Oil people are insurrectionists when they demonstrate in DC. After all, they're "impeding" the flow of traffic, right? And people who write emails to Congress complaining about everything. What is that but disruption?
This is dumb. Really, really dumb.
https://twitter.com/iamyesyouareno/status/1737937338120970715?t=133EpuS2ZmJo6rKGlpMy5w&s=19
No mainstream media outrage, no protests in the streets, no riots… You are not supposed to know this even happened because it doesn’t fit the narrative.
Most people have no idea the level of evil we are dealing with.
[Link]
There is no doubt that Democrats gamed the 2020 election, even if they can't be accused of stealing it. In Pennsylvania, they went around the legislature the get more mail-in voting and establish] more drop-off points, in Georgia the same thing happened. There were other instances of impropriety the courts refused to look at and, after the treatment they got from their Bush v Gore opinion, who could blame them. But, there should be no doubt that 2020 was far from an honest election and the idea that Joe Biden got 81 million votes is preposterous.
When we say the election was stolen, what that means is the voters were lied to, the MSM lied about the Biden laptop, Social Media squashed stories, the media ran cover for Biden, D’s led Covid shutdowns intentionally destroyed the worlds greatest economy, and much, much more. That’s not even getting into the many examples of voter fraud and ballot shenanigans.
Now now people, you're doing it wrong:
- Sullum is a far left progressive who is shilling for Biden
- The Jan. 6 "riot" was actually a bunch of tourists peacefully touring the Capitol, until they were beguiled by FBI informants and Antifa terrorists to break shit. Even then, they should not be prosecuted for anything, because they are Real American Patriots who mean well and it's all the fault of Pelosi anyway.
- When Trump says that his supporters should "fight like hell", or that his opponents are "vermin", or that illegal immigrants are "poisoning the blood of the country", he is not to be taken seriously. In fact he is not to be taken seriously ever, unless the Official Oracles of Trump so declare when he should be taken seriously. As a general rule, though, Trump is not to be taken seriously when it might make him look bad. Because Trump is like the Pope: totally infallible, even when he says dumb shit.
- All this is of course a distraction from the most important issues of the day, the dick pics on Hunter's laptop, and the IRONCLAD PROOF of Joe Biden's corruption that James Comer has forcefully proven. Reason proves itself to be nothing but a progressive rag when it does not obsess over Biden's corruption day in and day out, like a good little Team Red mouthpiece ought to do.
- And, reminder, Sullum is a far left progressive. We know this because he does not give Trump an infinite benefit of the doubt, like everyone knows Trump deserves.
So jeff, as someone who's quite worried about "ascendant" "fascism", what is your opinion of the apparent Democratic strategy to remove even the OPTION of voting for the incumbent POTUS's main rival?
Let's define a scale where negative 10 is maximally anti-fascist, positive 10 is maximally fascist, and 0 is neutral / not applicable.
Where do you rank what Democrats are doing right now?
Pi are yummy
So that's slightly above +3?
Fair. I'd probably say +1 or +2.
I’ll circle back to that soon.
It’s tangential to the sine.
So -10 is anti-fascist/communist and 10 is fascist? Not really a meaningful scale for anything outside pure authoritarianism. But that value should be closer to +/-7 and rising than neutral, They could only get worse if Trump ended up dead by Polonium poisoning tomorrow since they've pretty much started doing everything else an authoritarian regime can.
I didn't say anything about communism.
And yeah the numbers were arbitrary. I just wanted to see if jeff would claim kicking Trump off the ballot is a praiseworthy anti-fascist endeavor.
Near as I can tell Lying Jeffy isn’t going to give his opinion about the topic. So far his only response has been BUT TRUMP!
Communism as an ideology is very similar to fascism. That's why it persecutes fascists: they both compete for the same followers.
Communists also persecute other communists and socialists. That doesn't make then anti-communist.
Give up the act. You are no good at it.
"The Jan. 6 “riot” was actually a bunch of tourists peacefully touring the Capitol"
The overwhelming majority of people that were on the grounds AND in the building were 100% peaceful. And if you bothered to watch any of the extra 10,000 hours of video that was released you would know that your snarky comment is actually not far off from the truth.
"All this is of course a distraction from the most important issues of the day, the dick pics on Hunter’s laptop"
Never go full shrike.
The left just won’t go of Hunter’s penis.
Don’t you dare say Lying Jeffy just follows leftist narratives. He doesn’t. Just ask him, he’ll tell you.
Poor Lying Jeffy.
One thing I'm surprised I haven't seen mentioned more today is that Clause 3 doesn't even apply to the president as far as I can see. It explicitly lists the elected federal offices it applies to and president isn't one. I suppose there is a question about the meaning of "office", but it seems pretty clear that if they had intended it to apply to the president, then they would have written it that way. It applies to electors, but not the president.
It doesn't matter.
Arguing technicalities is capitulation.
What do you recommend, then?
Call it what it is- totalitarian bullshit.
There is no debate. There is only friend vs enemy.
What's even crazier is that it was in a DRAFT of the 14th amendment to include the President, and that language was removed. It seems pretty clear their intentions to not include the President under the 14th Amendment. The court said, "Yeah, but they probably meant the President anyway, despite that."
It's motivated reasoning all the way down.
Maybe you could see farther if you bothered to read the fucking opinion where it directly addresses the issue you 'haven't seen mentioned.'
Hard to see things being mentioned with your head up your asshole.
We'll take that as from your personal experience'
Brandon, in his withdrawal from Afghanistan, left behind American weapons and equipment for the Taliban.
Brandon aided and comforted the Taliban.
Brandon's disqualified.
Looks like Cuntala’s disqualified too!
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1267555018128965643
Of course it was an insurrection; what is not "of course" is whether he was an "officer of the United States." By clear caselaw, POTUS is not an "officer of the United States": https://www.kennedyforlaw.com/the-fourteenth-amendment-does-not-automatically-prevent-trump-s-re-election
How was it an insurrection? They carried no weapons and killed no congress critters. They didn't fire upon the legitimate forces of the United States or the District of Columbia. They protested a hell of a lot more peacefully than those who protested against Trump. No fires were set, no property was damaged, no autonomous zones were declared, no police stations overrun.
If that protest was an insurrection then the bar is being set pretty low. Girl scouts selling cookies on federal property will be an insurrection if we accept Jan 6th as an insurection.
Of course it wasn’t an insurrection. FTFY
How does one go to the Capitol to fight figuratively?
People in Congress do it all the time.
Have you ever gotten into a "fight" with your significant other that didn't involve literally punching them? If not, Jesus Christ, you're a monster.
Pretty sure aajax doesn’t have a significant other.
Practice.
I've heard from Democrats that the "courts never backed a stolen election." I've also heard that the mail in ballots were counted correctly, and the courts also backed those.
There is an astounding "perception" that Biden never really campaigned and that there was a huge difference between perception of Trump vs. Biden, in that Trump was enormously more popular. At least that is the perception.
I don't think anyone on either side knows whether or not the election was stolen. So please don't send any more Trump hate to me. I am prepared to believe either side, if either could be proven, which they cannot.
January 6th was not an insurrection. The purpose of calling it that was to demonize Republicans (and sending them to prison) to "discourage" protests on the right. And that's exactly what happened.
I don't think that either side has any "faith" in the election process. This has little to do with Trump. Democrats have also sued and complained about "bad elections."
There are ways to "ballast" the election process. One way certainly is to avoid mail in ballots. Even Anthony Fauci said that "people could got to the polls."
Anyway, I think the country is already lost, even if Trump wins.
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
I don’t think anyone on either side knows whether or not the election was stolen. So please don’t send any more Trump hate to me. I am prepared to believe either side, if either could be proven, which they cannot.
What I do know is this.
One side commissioned an intelligence dossier with critical misinformation to convince the FBI to investigate Russian Collusion®™.
One side tampered with evidence to obtain a FISA warrant against Carter Page.
One side created an entire government-media-tech complex that censored information it didn't like, suppressing millions of people's ability to speak.
One side spent nearly half a billion dollars "donating" funds to pay for election officials.
Trump's misconduct included his refusal to accept Biden's victory, his persistent peddling of his stolen-election fantasy, his pressure on state and federal officials to embrace that fantasy, the incendiary speech he delivered to his supporters before the riot, and his failure to intervene after a couple thousand of those supporters invaded the Capitol, interrupting the congressional ratification of the election results.
It was not misconduct, it was justified payback!
https://reason.com/2023/05/16/for-6-5-million-durham-report-finds-fbi-didnt-have-solid-dirt-on-trump-and-russia/
"The FBI should never have launched its probe into possible collusion between former President Donald Trump's 2016 campaign and Russia, according to Special Counsel John Durham. The FBI's investigation was hastily opened "based on raw, unanalyzed, and uncorroborated intelligence" and "senior FBI personnel displayed a serious lack of analytical rigor towards the information that they received, especially information received from politically affiliated persons and entities," wrote Durham in a report on the investigation he was appointed by former Attorney General William Barr to lead."
One of the things the whole Trump Colluded with the Russians®™ to Steal the 2016 Election propaganda campaign did was to undermine trust in the federal law enforcement and intelligence establishments!
"It's self-evident," President Joe Biden told reporters on Wednesday. "You saw it all. He certainly supported an insurrection. No question about it. None. Zero."
Do we call this spin, or do we call this a blatant fucking lie?
It is a fucking lie.
Sounds like slander orders of magnitude greater than what Alex Jones was convicted of.
"Self-evident". No jury. No judge. No court. No law. No evidence. No Consitution. No process at all. Just, "self-evident".
I believe by the standards being applied to Trump in Colorado, this constitutes an act of insurrection. After all, it is "impeding" the proper function of government.
The easiest argument to defend Trump is the fact that on 1/5/20, nobody on the planet dared question the fact he was eligible for office and could seek re-election in 2024. There was no upside to J6 for Trump. Everything else was and remains a red herring. The riots serving as a pretext to disqualify him from ballots is precisely why there are concerns about glowies inciting the riot.
This is dumb. If one state can do it, any state can do it for any reason for any Presidential/VP ballot. It will be a mess. Supremes will shoot it down.
And the vast majority of rioters seem to have acted spontaneously, with no clear goal in mind other than expressing their outrage at an election outcome they believed was the product of massive fraud.
They believed that, of course, because that is what Trump told them.
Sullum is mistakenly supporting the idea that people are inherently followers, buying into things a "leader" tells them, and then assigning that as their own belief. It's much more fair to say that they believed it because of things they'd heard and seen, much of which Trump also saw and heard, and Trump bolstered and fed that sentiment by coming to similar conclusions. There are people who believed the election was stolen or that there were degrees of fraud independent of what they heard from Trump.
I mean, I believe there were a lot of sketchy things in that election and I basically never listen to Trump, nor do I find him a reliable narrator of anything. In most cases, I'm much more critical of a claim because I heard Trump repeat it because Trump is a bloviating politician, and yet I am deeply suspicious of the lack of clarity and chain of custody that comes from heavy use of mailed-in ballots. I'm innately distrustful of government, though, and elections are a government-run operation.
What was sketchy was the whole Trump Colluded with the Russians®™ to Steal the 2016 Election propaganda campaign.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2022/05/22/its-confirmation-bias-stupid/
"It was confirmation bias. It’s really as simple as that. Even though the lawyers and agents involved in the investigation could not find the smoking gun evidence they were sure was there somewhere showing that Donald Trump and his odious minions conspired with America’s enemies to steal the 2016 election from its rightful winner, Hillary Clinton, they were absolutely certain that’s what happened, and still probably believe that’s what happened. They believed it fervently before the investigation ever began, and it poisoned the objectivity and the legitimacy of their work throughout.
Every aspect of Trump’s Presidency was poisoned by confirmation bias—from the news media, from academics, from the Washington D.C. culture, from the popular culture—stretching back before he was nominated. He was a bad guy, that’s all, and everything he did or said was filtered through that jaundiced perception. It is impossible for anyone to succeed in any job, and definitely not the hardest job in the civilized world, burdened with that handicap.
People–smart people, learned people, well-intentioned people— would not accept that the man wasn’t seeking the Presidency as part of some kind of sinister plan to enrich himself and his family, nor that he brought any useful skills to the job, nor that he could have possibly won (and the fact that it was “only” an Electoral College victory was seen as proof of that, though it was not)."- Jack Marshall
Given what happened to him, Trump was perfectly justified in attacking the legitimacy of the 2020 election.
Hillary sent her opposition research to the FBI in attempt to weaponize the FBI against her political opponent, and the attorney lied and said he wasn't representing Hillary when he did it. I think it's fair to say that her campaign was trying to exert unfair election in 2016.
So yes, plenty of reason to be suspicious they might do something similar in 2020. Let's just not talk about Hunter's laptop.
His laptop is just about dick pics!!!1!!!!
Trump's pre-riot speech was reckless because it was foreseeable that at least some people in his audience would be moved to go beyond peaceful protest.
How is that clearly forseeable? There's actually not a lengthy history of violence from the MAGA crowd. I don't believe the Oath Keepers had ever been involved in anything similar to a riot prior to January 6-even if some of them had been in stand-offs with police. The Proud Boys, sure, arguably. And the far-right neonazis actually aren't MAGA types, so you can't count Charlottesville. Trump truly believed, and I do as well, that the pro-Trump crowd is very largely law-and-order types who don't riot. And that's why you see a lot of really peaceful protestors at January 6, clearly distinguished from the rioting crowd.
Beyond that, are you guilty of saying something that causes an unreasonable reaction? No. We all have assumptions that are built into law that people are reasonable, and that the only consequences we're responsible for are the reactions that come from reasonable people. It's true that some people are reasonable, but if I just type "Kill yourself" to a random person online, I have zero moral culpability if that person decides to hop into a bathtub with a toaster right afterward. Regardless how impolite it was, it's not a forseeable, reasonable consequence.
"It's true that some people are reasonable," should be "some people are NOT reasonable," because fucking edit button is broken.
I've got it to work a couple of times today.
Buy a lottery ticket.
"Trump’s pre-riot speech was reckless because it was foreseeable that at least some people in his audience would be moved to go beyond peaceful protest."
The speech the day before when he called on people to be peaceful and patriotic or the actual speech where the rioting started while he was still giving it?
It is hard to deny that Trump's speech satisfies the third prong, which is why it provoked so much well-deserved criticism and rightly figured in his impeachment.
Because telling people to peacefully and patriotically make their voices heard is clearly likely to result in imminent lawless action.
"...Applying the first prong, the court cites "the general atmosphere of political violence that President Trump created before January 6" ..."
Utter bullshit. Nowhere did Trump do any susch thing.
"...as well as the "coded language" of his speech that day..."
The court as mind-reader.
If Trump was in fact using his speech to send a coded order to the rioters to attack the Capitol, that would be a serious crime.
It still would not be an insurrection.
Of course, there was no evidence of a code in the first place.
"...Of course, there was no evidence of a code in the first place..."
This addresses my point: The court is claiming that '...if you squint just right, you can see it as...'
2-bit mind-reading.
It's due process, Stalin style.
Or the court is indulging in conspiracy theories
I don't know how TRUMP created the general atmosphere of political violence. Antifa was explicitly anti-Trump and is one of the greatest purveyors of political violence in America. BLM is very much not pro-Trump and yet they engage in an extraordinary degree of political violence; or at least endorse it.
The whole thing is who's the witch game. There was no F'En Insurrection and Trump wasn't even close to the protest. It's completely flooring how 'imaginary' crimes are being prosecuted by the [Na]tional So[zi]alist[s].
Even Jacob's MSNBC-like embellishment of the left's narrative can't save the underlying question: Is Trump guilty of something, anything, that disqualifies him from seeking another term as President?
The answer, of course, is "No."
The insurrection claim never gets to the point of consideration because he wasn't charged with "insurrection," much less get convicted of it. There is simply no legal principle that allows for entering a conviction for a crime with no legal proceeding that alleges the offense even took place. Yet, to hear many of the commenters, Trump is simply "guilty," no need for even a short discussion.
(Well, I sure hope none of you ever get arrested for something you claim you didn't commit. You'll deserve nothing less than what we are watching get done to Trump.)
Any of the other imagined "offenses," even if they exist under any law, don't yet apply - because Trump hasn't been convicted of anything. We have this pesky legal principle in the US called "due process." all these attempts to keep Trump off the ballot because the person bringing the suits violate Trump's right to due process, so they are dead in the water before they get going. Every single one of the courts that have accepted these cases for adjudication are also violating Trump's right as well, knowingly or otherwise.
Any and all that participated in this travesty should be investigated and disbarred from the practice of law for life. Period.
They argue that his disqualification is not a criminal punishment but a civil punishment so no trial is needed let alone a conviction. Of course it is a criminal punishment but they will dishonestly argue it isn't to excuse the fact that it really is only hate for Trump that motivates them in this.
They believed that, of course, because that is what Trump told them.
Flaw, and has always been a flaw.
Everyone I know who believes the election was stolen, primarily believes it because of the middle-of-the-night vote shifts taking jurisdictions from Trump to Biden. Trump didn't tell them about these things.
At most, Trump seized on it and endorsed it lending extra credence to it. People believed it before Trump ever told them what to believe, though.
Not everyone is a simpleton who follows everything they hear. Most people actually aren't.
A lot of people became friendlier towards Trump because of what happened. Not because they always liked him and were listening to what he said. 2020 just made me notice this state media/ministry of truth apparatus that was blatantly trying to crush him. And they are mostly the same people who are for everything I hate right now. Go Trump?
Yeah, I wasn’t listening to Trump when all of the sudden there was a “ water main” break in the middle of counting votes in Fulton county and they had to evacuate the place. That turned out to be a leaking toilet.
This. I don't actually pay that much attention to Trump himself. I leave that for the retards with TDS. But the graphs that had a sudden vertical spring in the vote counts for Biden, in a bunch of battleground states, overnight, when tabulation had supposedly be halted in those states? Yeah, that smelled funny.
What a stupid headline! Here, I'll fix it for you:
Was the Capitol "Riot" a Riot?
Short answer: at the very most, barely.
Slightly more detailed answer: wouldn't have even been barely or slightly a riot, if not for the federal instigators who were present.
Even if it was a full blown 'fiery but mostly peaceful' riot, that's
a) still not an insurrection
b) Trump didn't have anything to do with it.
So I don't know what these people keep going on about.
Like all religious zealots, progressives (and thus most Democrats) judge offenses based on the affront to doctrine, and by the religion of the accused. Anything like secular law, equal standing, and logic are not just of no use, they are themselves religious crimes.
Wait, Sullum - how 'iffy'?
Going to jail for 'leaking nukular secrets' iffy? Are the wallz not clozin in anymore?
Haha, I forgot about that bit of “journalism” from Sullum. What a hack.
>Trump's misconduct included his refusal to accept Biden's victory, his persistent peddling of his stolen-election fantasy, his pressure on state and federal officials to embrace that fantasy, the incendiary speech he delivered to his supporters before the riot, and his failure to intervene after a couple thousand of those supporters invaded the Capitol, interrupting the congressional ratification of the election results.
1. Clinton never accepted Trump's.
2. She openly peddles 'russians stole the election'.
3. She's given more than 'an incendiary speech' - she's given talks and media interviews.
4. What exactly was Trump supposed to do to 'quell the insurrection'? By the time the Army would have gotten there - it was already over. Indeed, had the Capitol Police done their job it likely would never have gotten past the 'walk into the lobby' stage.
He could have ignored Nancy Pelosi the day before when she said not to have the National Guard on standby.
Of course, that would have presumed he'd know about the plan in advance, and certainly Nancy and the FBI weren't going to let him in on that.
And if he had called in the National Guard, they likely would have called him a fascist for that and impeached for it.
.Trump’s misconduct included his refusal to accept Biden’s victory
LOL denying the results of your election loss is like a national past time.
>Applying the first prong, the court cites "the general atmosphere of political violence that President Trump created before January 6" as well as the "coded language" of his speech that day.
would this not apply to Kamala Harris today? Or is it that she openly helped rioters and openly called for more that makes it ok - it wasn't 'coded' when she did it.
The Colorado Supreme Court's reasoning in deciding that Trump is constitutionally disqualified from running for president seems iffy.
That's putting it lightly.
Jeff Sullum really took a strong stance against politically motivated lawfare!
"Well, I don't think I can exactly agree with everything they said."
The legislative equivalent of voting “present.”
I suspect anyone claiming to be a Libertarian to be a bald faced liar if they claim any election in the last 100 years has been above board and free of any kind of tampering. The reason we are Libertarians, deep down, is a distrust of government. We don't trust governments to educate our children, run the roads, tax fairly, prosecute the laws equally or in short do anything without there being several levels of corruption involved. Why trust governments to run a fair election?
The idea that an election can be held without some tampering is an example of childlike gullibility. Was the 2016 election tampered with? I'd be shocked if it wasn't. How about the 2020? Again, I'd be shocked if it wasn't. The 2000 election that AL Gore challenged over hanging chads in Florida was clearly corrupt as all hell.
Elections aren't fairly won in this country, one side just does a better job of stealing the election than the other. It may not be organized at the top but both sides are clearly cheating at the local level.
When Trump accused the Democrats of stealing the election he was just telling us what deep down we already knew. He didn't inspire anyone to riot. Hell, he inspired folks to NOT riot as far as I'm concerned. Those Capitol Cops should be sucking Trumps COCK in thanks for calling for a peaceful assembly. If the Trump supporters wanted a riot there would have been a lot of dead cops and congress critters. There would be burning buildings and blown out windows across DC. With the military experience those people had they could have are a real mess.
Sullum, as is the case with many analysts, is misreading and mischaracterizing the 14th Amendment. The relevant section pertains to insurrection or rebellion against the US Constitution. Not the US government. To wit: "insurrection or rebellion against the same [i.e. the Constitution]". Therefore, Trump's attempt to thwart the Constitution by remaining in office beyond the 4 year term he was elected for is where the element of rebellion arises.
As for the mischaracterization, it's regarding the 14th Amendment itself. An Amendment to the US constitution is a hard thing to obtain. And none of the Amendments were meant by their drafters to refer to a specific past event only. In other words, the 2nd Amendment doesn't say the right to bear arms was only for the Revolutionary War. It's a permanent right. Likewise, the 14th Amendment doesn't only pertain to the Civil War a few years prior, it is a permanent proscription of insurrectionists and rebels holding public office. Nor were the due process and equal protection clauses only applicable pre-1868. They are permanent rights.
In fact, Section 2's reference to "rebellion, or other crime" has been invoked as the constitutional ground for felony disenfranchisement, i.e. denying felons the right to vote in presidential elections. Again, Section 2 is permanent unless revoked by a future Constitutional Amendment.
Finally, does the 14th Amendment apply to the presidency? Of course it does. No one would think that former Confederate President Jefferson Davis was eligible to run for the US presidency. Just as no one should think that former president Donald Trump is eligible to run for president again after engaging in rebellion against the US Constitution.
He was so adamant about staying in office that he ordered the military to seize Joe Biden and lock him up and then had a military parade complete with fences and barbed wire.
Oh wait, no, that's right, he left on the appointed day, at the appointed time after exhausting every legal avenue he could.
And then kept lying and disputing the election for the next 3+ years, à la Hillary Clinton. I suppose if you want to lower yourself, she's a good example to follow.
It legal to dispute things.
Did you say that when Al Gore disputed the Florida vote count in 2000?
Did anyone not? You are a lefty half-wit, aren't you?
Who EVER said Gore’s court challenges were illegal?
Al Gore was within his rights to ask for recounts. He was dumb as a box of rocks for asking for recounts and fighting it to the Supreme Court because that is why people today distrust our elections. He's the modern moron who pulled back the curtain and showed the people how the sausage is made.
I'm with them!
Lying and disputing elections is still protected speech and definitely not insurrection, so glad we could clear that up.
(And there are still people disputing the 2000 election and saying it was stolen, so forgive me if I don’t give a flying fuck about those types of claims.)
And all those justice department investigations and wiretaps on the Biden admin... don't forget about those.
Therefore, Trump’s attempt to thwart the Constitution by remaining in office beyond the 4 year term he was elected for is where the element of rebellion arises.
You're inferring an intent that is not proven. His intent could arguably have been to investigate perceived election fraud. His intent may have been to protest. His intent may have been to motivate his base in order to make another presidential run 4 years later. "Intent to insurrect" is an element of the crime of insurrection, of which no evidence has been properly introduced, cross-examined, and adjudicated.
There exist other plausible alternative theories. Plausible alternative theories are often considered the basis of what we call "Reasonable Doubt."
Beyond that, the vagueness of saying that simply interfering with a government function qualifies as an insurrection is unjusticiable. It's too broad and vague, covering too many actions. Violence that interferes with the functioning of federal government would include any violence that occurs as a result of any political protest. It's an unconscionable limit on the right to protest and seek redress of grievances because if you happen to be involved with a crowd that turns violent, you may be considered an insurrectionist.
Adjudication is not a necessary element of the 14th Amendment. Also, it's not "simply interfering with a government function" that's needed for disqualification, it's violating a Constitutional Duty. Attempting to thwart The Executive Vesting Clause (Article II, Section 1, Clause 1) in the Constitution, which prescribes that a president will hold office for only a four-year term, unless and until he is re-elected to the presidency by the American people is cited as one of the duties he violated.
So it’s good to be declared guilty of something with no trial? This is what we are now?
I didn't write the 14th Amendment. Other people did in the 1860s. I'm explaining how it may apply to the current situation.
Some claim that "let the people vote" is the right approach. I disagree. To risk Godwin, I point out that Hitler was elected. But more pertinent is what if somebody, let's say a Democrat, tried to take over the government in an attempt that was universally acknowledged as a coup by essentially everyone in both parties. Should that Democrat be allowed to run for and become president despite the 14th Amendment?
I’m explaining how it may apply to the current situation.
Correction, you're opining. You actually are in no position to "explain" this to anyone, you're presenting your own thoughts on it. This sort of open discourse is one of the ideas underpinning the 1st Amendment.
tried to take over the government in an attempt that was universally acknowledged as a coup by essentially everyone in both parties. Should that Democrat be allowed to run for and become president despite the 14th Amendment?
If it was agreed upon by essentially everyone in both parties that this person was a treasonous criminal, we should put him on trial for treason and secure a conviction. Then the 14th Amendment clearly attaches.
And yet if there's sufficient reasonable doubt that it's impossible to convict him, and people want to vote for him...well then that's a different thing, isn't it? And perhaps he's not all that treasonous to the People of the United States if the majority of the People of the United States would choose him as their representative.
Correction: You're bullshiting, asshole.
Ed, that's a lame excuse. The bill of rights guarantees us all the right to a trial by jury for all crimes. That has never been changed. Just because the 14th doesn't specify the need for a trial doesn't change anything. It would have to specify a different procedure, like the impeachment procedure, if they intended the amendent to be applied in some way other than the standard trial by jury they would have added it to the amendment.
Adjudication is not a necessary element of the 14th Amendment.
How do you know? Where is the process described for how someone is to be disqualified under the 14th? How does a candidate learn they've been disqualified? How is a state supposed to discover who the disqualified candidates under the 14th Amendment are?
None of this is written in the Amendment. There IS, however, a section that explains an enforcement mechanism.
The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
That's the only thing we have in the text about where the authority of enforcing section III must derive.
You want to know WHAT a well-described Constitutional process looks like? How about impeachment?
Article 1, Section II:
The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.
Okay, but how is it adjudicated?
Article 1, Section III
The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.
What happens after a conviction? Again, Article I, Section III, subsequent paragraph:
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
Can the President pardon someone for an impeachable offense?
Article 2, section 2:
...and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
Is the President subject to being removed by impeachment?
Article 2, Section 4.
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
So we have clear constitutional authority on something like impeachment, with a process for how to effect it and a list of people who are subject to it. The power originates in the House and is adjudicated in the Senate, and the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court shall preside.
So what process do we use for disqualification under Amendment 14, Section 3?
Not a bad example, but it's a 3-parter. Conviction upon impeachment leads to 1) removal from office; 2) disqualification from holding office; 3) subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
The 14th Amendment is solely disqualification from office. A 2/3rds vote of Congress is required to remove disqualification. The 14th was last used in 1919 to bar a Congressman from office based on his violation of the Espionage Act. Congress did not pass an enforcement law, but simply passed by majority vote a resolution declaring his ineligibility.
Whether the ability to disqualify a former office holder from future office is solely the purview of the US Congress is undetermined.
"...The 14th was last used in 1919 to bar a Congressman from office based on his violation of the Espionage Act..."
And Trump had violated nothing, asshole.
Invoking that example from 1919 really does hurt his point, though, doesn't it? Since in 1919, he was disqualified by a Congressional vote, AFTER a criminal conviction? Doesn't it seem like, at the time, they might have believed there were a few necessary precursors to any finding that a candidate was disqualified?
A 2/3rds vote of Congress is required to remove disqualification.
How is Congress supposed to know who is disqualified? Where are the processes for determining disqualification?
The 14th was last used in 1919 to bar a Congressman from office based on his violation of the Espionage Act.
I mean, this is an interesting case on many levels. For one, we'll point out that the passage of the Espionage Act and the period of the 1917-1920 Red Scare is perhaps the absolute nadir of free speech in the history of the United States. The benchmark case of that period regarding what was considered incitement was Schenk v. United States, which was swallowed up and essentially overturned by Brandenburg.
Second, as you've pointed out, Victor L. Berger was ACTUALLY convicted under the Espionage Act of 1917 for giving aid and comfort to the enemy. In essence, a offense tantamount to treason. And of course, he was eventually exonerated because the adjudicated judge was unduly prejudiced. But that's beside the point.
The 14th Amendment did not automatically attach to Berger in 1919, however. The 66th Congress formed a committee because they said they were "not governed by judge and jury of Federal court." They had their own hearing on the matter and decided that they, CONGRESS, invoked the 14th Amendment in their refusal to seat him. They held a House vote, concurring 311 yeas to 1 nay vote. So even though he was convicted, he still arrived to take his seat in the house, and Congress, not a court, and not a state executive agency, acted to disqualify him.
Thirdly, after his conviction was overturned, and, given his presumptive innocence as a result, he ran for Congress again and was seated in 1922. Which makes this an interesting case, doesn't it? The judgment, the rush to secure a conviction for supposedly disloyal speech, only saw him later vindicated and exonerated. Because ultimately, he was found guilty of printing anti-war articles in his newspaper, which is inherently an exercise of free speech. It took Brandenburg and Hess V. Indiana to fix the damaged state of juris prudence that originated from that very same WWI era.
The Amnesty Act of 1872 (that 2/3 vote) is what removed the disability from most Confederates. That is really what ended Sec 3 for the Civil War era, There was another amnesty in the 1890's - and Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis regained their citizenship posthumously in the 1970's or so.
Between 1865 and the Amnesty Act, there were a handful of cases that in fact led to the 14th amendment. Notably - Alexander Stephens (VP of the Confederacy) was elected by Georgia to the US Senate in late 1865. There were a dozen or so then. The Senate refused to seat them so Sec 3 was technically enforced before it was even ratified. There were no courtroom convictions of insurrection or treason of Confederates but that was because Grant/Sherman/etc believed (just a notion of honor not legality) that the battlefield terms of surrender that they offered to Confederate armies precluded further convictions. So no cases were ever brought to trial.
Sec 3 was mostly used after the 14th amendment to eliminate Confederates from southern state governments - like half the TN Supreme Court, etc. Sec 3 is also what resulted in virtually all representatives from the South in Congress from the 14th amendment to the Amnesty Act - being Unionists, 'carpetbaggers' or former slaves.
Point being - there were no convictions required
Maybe, just maybe, no convictions were required because (as in your example) it was patently obvious to everyone who had been part of the Confederacy.
They haven’t even bothered charging any of the protestors with insurrection for science’s sake.
No convictions were required because they deliberately chose NOT to pursue convictions. And everyone knew THAT at the time.
Yes, in the context of the Confederacy, whose existence literally no sane person denied, convictions were not considered necessary. It was a self-apparent thing.
In the absence of an actual war between states involving armies that lasted four and a half years, it may require some other clearly-apparent factual underpinning. A criminal conviction is a possible example but perhaps not the sole example. There's been no proper factual finding used to examine whether this can possibly apply in the context of Trump, who was acquitted at his Impeachment hearing.
A Congressional enforcement vote, finding Trump disqualified from office, would certainly be self-executing, and is indisputably in the power of Congress to issue under the 14th Amendment.
See the article below. The reason Congress is mentioned - rather than the usual power of the exec re pardons - is because of the conflict between Congress and Pres Johnson re Reconstruction.
IOW - the source of authority is the institution deemed to be most willing to oppose that insurrectionary conflict. But the conflict at issue here and now is not secession. It is not a fed-state conflict. Or even a regional conflict.
The conflict now is purely partisan and factional. The oath of office is no longer taken seriously by officeholders. Neither faction accepts a peaceful transfer of power to the other. Hell they don't even accept a peaceful transfer of power to the not-yet-retired. Neither faction accepts a 'republican form of government'. Both are insurrectionary basically.
And get serious - this generation of Americans is incapable of agreeing on any common self-evident facts.
"And get serious – this generation of Americans is incapable of agreeing on any common self-evident facts."
Assertions from lefty shits =/= argument or evidence, lefty shit.
As an aside - a scholarly article about Sec 3 of 14th Amendment.
Interesting stuff about how Reconstruction unfolded.
Is that the congressman who when his conviction was overturned seated? Because by that example it still required first a conviction in a criminal trial then action by Congress and even then when the conviction was overturned Congress reversed itself and seated the person involved ( which suggests a criminal conviction of an appropriate crime is necessary ). And it can't just be any crime as we have had impeached ( Alcee Hastings) and criminally convicted persons serve in Congress. It takes a special crime and conviction to become ineligible.
The problem is that the insurrection then (secession by states where Congress is a bulwark against that secessionary insurrection) is not the same as the claimed insurrection now (violation of the oath of office of President in order to subvert Constitutional mechanisms of transferring power) where part of Congress is SUPPORTING that attempt to subvert the Constitution.
I think the case is hyperbolic re Trump because at core he's a narcissistic child with authoritarian tendencies - more akin to Ron Burgundy than Mussolini. But the R's and Mises nihilists who are supporting this even now just for the shits and giggles are truly fascists.
OTOH, he's not a self-important, arrogant chicken little like you.
He did very well while in office, and you simply made an authoritarian ass of yourself backing Fauci's lies
OTOH, he’s not a self-important, arrogant chicken little like you.
I certainly wouldn't go that far. Self important, arrogant, Chicken-little? I find all of these descriptors to be fair, even apt when applied to Donald J. Trump.
Care to defend that statement?
Trump is clearly arrogant, I don't think I need to offer a citation for this. Being self-important goes along with this. I'd be shocked to find much pushback on either of those points.
As for being a Chicken Little, he's absolutely full of over-the-top doomsday about what's coming economically if he's not elected. I'm certainly no fan of Democrats and the ridiculous, out of control spending and terrible financial policies are going to lead to ruin if they're not stopped, but not on the insane time-tables that Trump proposes. It won't happen next year, it won't happen in 2025 if Trump isn't elected. But it could certainly happen by 2030.
Trump is an alarmist by nature. He overreacted to COVID, which was only mitigated by the fact that Democrats overreacted even harder. He was all-in on lockdowns. He criticized Republican governors who he believed re-opened out of lockdown too early. Just like he overreacted to the Vegas shooting by banning bump stocks, which at MOST were superficially related to that tragedy.
"Trump is clearly arrogant, I don’t think I need to offer a citation for this. Being self-important goes along with this. I’d be shocked to find much pushback on either of those points..."
I don't disagree; those characteristics might be a result of accomplishing something, unlike our resident chicken little.
The rest bullshit.
The people against the overarching breadth and power of the federal government especially in regards to their control of the economy are actually fascists?
That’s a bold claim.
Attempting to thwart The Executive Vesting Clause (Article II, Section 1, Clause 1) in the Constitution, which prescribes that a president will hold office for only a four-year term, unless and until he is re-elected to the presidency by the American people is cited as one of the duties he violated.
How did he do that? What proof is there that he did this? Being able to put oneself forward as a candidate for public office is a right, and rights shall not be provoked absent due process. What due process has Donald Trump received?
Simply repeating the mantra that he's a criminal doesn't make it true, though there is a process in which we adjudicate the truth of matters.
I mean seriously, if you think this is so self-apparent, how were 3 well-educated liberal justices ever able to disagree with this ruling?
The very fact Trump left office without guns being pointed at him certainly means he did accept the election results. One need only look at Reconstructionist Texas to notice what an actual 'insurrection' might look like, and it looks nothing like what happened on January 6th.
QED.
"Biden, whose reelection bid would get a big boost from Trump's disqualification"
Um, people will be voting AGAINST Biden, not for a republican to be named later.
Jacob should read the 14th Amendment and "The Day Freedom Died." Then take a look at U.S. v Cruickshank and the book-burning antichoice lady-killing Comstock Law. Next, ask how the GOP handed the South to the Klan in exchange for pretending Hayes won the election.
And that Richard Mellon Scaif...
Did Hank transition?
STOP THE PRESSES!!! INSERT HOTTEST NEWS FLASH!!! BREAKING NEWS!!!
Trump finally (Sort of) concedes the erections!!!
My most-senior inside contact at the Shadow White House has surreptitiously slipped me an advance copy of the ex-lame-duck POTUS’s concession speech. Without further ado, here it is:
Friends, non-foreigner-type True Americans, and all who Make America Great Again, lend me your ears! I come to bury Biden, not to praise him. Biden and his minions stole the erections, and we must dishonor that! To Make America Great Again, we must invent the most fantastic, fabulous, YUUUGEST BIGNESS EVAH SEEN, in the ways of truly factually fictitious, but Spiritually and Metaphorically True, NEW Republican ballots! Because I have directed My Generals and My Scientists to research the current and past performance, efficacy, and patriotism of one-party states, versus multi-party states. As I have directed them to, My impartial, unbiased, data-driven council of My Generals and My Scientists have determined that yea verily, one-party states work better! Therefore, we must all strive for the Glorious Day, when America becomes a one-party state, under the One True Party, the Republican Party!
But for now, the courts have sided with Biden and his camel-toe, and Antifa, BLM, and all the Marxist terrorists. We must let the courts have it their way, with mayo on the side. I mean, with Mao Tse Tung on the side, but without the Proud Boys standing back and standing by. Thank you, Proud Boys, for having stood by me. Also, thank you, Steve Bannon, Vladimir Putin, Kim Ill Dung, and Pepe the Stolen-Intellectual-Property Frog. Pepe, watch out for Miss Piggy, she and her “pre-nuptial contracts” will clean your clock, just like Melania is set to clean mine soon! But I digest.
So we can’t disrepute what the nasty courts have said, or there might be civil war. Sad! The courts aren’t very American these days! And if you don’t like what I just said? Well, I’m sorry that you feel that way!
So congratulations to Biden for having stolen the erections! This is America, so we must properly honor the decisions of the courts, in a dishonorable way! Biden can come and live with us in the White House, per the wishes of the courts. He can pour our covfefe for us, for Steve Bannon, Pepe the Frog, and I, and Jill can make sandwiches for us. We promise to call him POTUS, and her, First Lady! POTUS of covfefe, and First Lady of sandwiches, that is! Hey Biden! Get yer butt over here! Pepe needs some covfefe!
That setup will get us by for a little while! Meanwhile, we can schedule the NEW run-off erections, this time without any fraudulent so-called “Democratic” votes being allowed, and we can do this RIGHT the next time!
Meanwhile, congratulations to Joe Stalin-Biden, on being erected POTUS of pouring covfefe for Pepe!
Jacob Sullum is being deliberately obtuse. Trump had been planning the overturning of the election for weeks. He fired the SecDef and put in a sycophant who issued a memo where he stated to be in control of the National Guard, not anyone else, e.g., Nancy Pelosi. Trump's Plan A was for VP Pence to reject Electors but he refused. Plan B was to get Pence out of there so Sen. Grassley could do it, but that failed because Pence refused to get into that SUV taking him to an airplane. Plan C was to send the crowd to the Capitol to disrupt the proceedings sufficiently to throw the election into the House where Trump would win because the vote is by State and the Republicans controlled a majority of the States. I don't believe Trump expected the violence but he clearly liked it because for three hours he watched and did nothing. VP Pence had to deploy the NG even though strictly speaking he wasn't in the chain of command.
This was an insurrection. https://politicsofthelastage.blogspot.com/2023/03/the-insurrection.html
I thought trump was a dummy?
11-d checkers!
In the minds of leftists Trump I'd both genius and idiot. Both 4d chess master and clown. Both childish tantrum thrower and brilliant media manipulator.
It all depends on what part of the election cycle we are in.
"...Trump had been planning the overturning of the election for weeks..."
Got a live one here, folks:
How, specifically, did he 'plan to overturn an election'? Was it similar to his plan to levitate the Capital?
Further, did you plan this to prove how stupud lefty shits can be or are you so stupid you don't realize it does so?
I'm starting to think Trump really will win next year and be the next president. What a fascinating turn of events.
No and no. Fuck off you evil marxist hack.
I assume you really don't expect anyone to take you seriously, given how poorly and irrationally you spewed this bullshit. Like most of the far left you think you can insult people to agree with you. I'm disinclined to support Trump but illiterate idiots like you push me towards him every day. Spermy Daniel's? Really? What the he'll does that even mean? Like most Dems you're incapable of rational discussion. Go back to making firebombs for BLMs next riot. I'm sure they're planning it.
related: Was the "pandemic" a pandemic?
hint: no
Were the disasters of 2020, 2021 caused by "the pandemic"?
No. And hell no!
They were caused by the tin-pot-dictator wannabes like Newsom assuming they were capable of 'planning' an economy.
You're all missing the point. Trump hasn't been convicted of insurrection or treason. I know the 14th doesn't say anything about being convicted by a court, but anything else is just somebody's unsubstantiated personal opinion. The 14th fails any kind of due process test.
A minor quibble-the issue isn't exactly with the 14th, but it's with the way the 14th has been presently invoked. The 14th is written under the assumption and with the context that "insurrection" and the people guilty thereof are obviously understood without any ambiguity. In my opinion, it therefore should only be triggered by any event equally unambiguous.
A criminal conviction is at least one such mechanism to reaching such clarity. If there had been, say, a declaration of war and a clear breach of faith of several elected officials, that would be equally unambiguous. But we have a material issue here that remains disputed which is central to invoking this clause, so therefore it shouldn't trigger. I suspect we'll see at least some response from SCOTUS along these lines, regardless whether they see it as the core argument.
The 14th is written under the assumption and with the context that “insurrection” and the people guilty thereof are obviously understood without any ambiguity.
I don't think that works. Anyone that was supportive or part of an insurrection would certainly think that they were justified in their actions. Your formulation makes it such that the people that engaged in an insurrection, and most importantly, the people in the general public that support their actions, must believe that it was an insurrection in order for it to be one.
As the Colorado Supreme Court ruled, using violence to try and block the transfer of power as spelled out in the Constitution surely qualifies as an insurrection. How "spontaneous" it was doesn't matter much, as I see it.
By the way, as to Trump's intent, he could have called on people to stop the moment he heard that they were being violent. Instead, he tweeted again about Pence not going along with what he wanted.
2:13 pm - Secret Services evacuates Mike Pence from the Senate Floor
2:24 pm - "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution."
According to testimony from White House aides, Trump had been in the private dinning room watching everything happen on FoxNews as soon as he got back, well before 2pm. If so, he knew what was happening and decided to egg it on, only to tweet about "remaining peaceful" about 15 minutes later.
What's funny is you've been groomed to think throwing a fire extinguisher off stage and slapping helmets is 'insurrection-al' violence. Do you leftards even hesitate for a second to realize just how stupid what you say is.
Never-mind the REAL insurrection taking place is [Na]tional So[zi]alists conquering the USA.
Anyone that was supportive or part of an insurrection would certainly think that they were justified in their actions.
They would think that, yes. The Confederacy believed states had a right to secede. And it turned out that, since they couldn't win the ensuing war, that it turned out they did not have that right.
But whether or not they were justified doesn't bear on the fact that they did break away. No matter how self-righteous, no Confederate would deny that they left the United States. They founded their own freaking country and issued their own currency. The underlying fact that there was a war is not something anyone could dispute.
The underlying fact in this case is that there was an "insurrection." Nobody would deny that there was a protest that turned riotous on January 6. But calling that a riot is not a clear, undisputed fact. It's not simply self-evident in the way that judges are allowed to recognize: Judges may recognize as "self-evident" that 1 plus 1 equals 2, or that gravity causes things to fall toward earth, or that Des Moines is a city located within the United States. These are the things you can accept as true without using a trier of fact to determine their truth.
Whether an insurrection happened on January 6 simply doesn't fall under that nimbus, even if you believe one did.
BTW, this is the blood-thirsty, sadistic lefty shit who supports murder of the unarmed if it might prevent, well, he's not real sure:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?...”
Don’t let them distract you with details - remember The Left spent 4 years claiming President Trump stole the rigged election from Killary. ALWAYS keep that in mind when reading crap like this.
Holy god, what more do you want - that he showed up to the rally with a rifle? He's guilty as sin, and every action he took between Election Day and Inauguration Day was pointed at the same outcome - to overturn the election and remain in power.
Trump is The Pure One, Without Sin, Ass Was Foretold, oh ye NASTY impure one!
https://www.thedailybeast.com/mypillow-guy-mike-lindell-punts-timeline-for-trump-retaking-power-as-august-conspiracy-theories-get-wackier
MyPillow Guy Punts Timeline for Trump Retaking Power as Conspiracy Theories Get Wackier
https://www.salon.com/2021/08/22/mike-lindell-still-in-trumps-good-graces-has-new-prediction-reinstatement-by-new-years/
The Lord Trump didn’t return to us as scheduled, but the Second Coming is now re-scheduled. You can TRUST us THIS time, for sure!
The Lord Trump DID return to us faithful ones, but He did it in an invisible way! Hold strong in your Faith in Him!
The Lord Trump didn’t return to us yet, this is true! It only did NOT happen because YOU were not faithful enough, and didn’t send Him enough donations!
The Lord Trump didn’t return to us yet, but He DID miraculously protect us all from the VERY worst forces of Evil, which is Der BidenFuhrer! Hold fast in your Faith… Lord Trump will come back VERY soon now! Especially if you send Him more money!
The Lord Trump moves in Mysterious Ways! All will be revealed SOON! Especially if you have Enough Faith to DONATE till it HURTS!
You have any evidence or citations for that claim, Anastasia, or are you just queefing?
Well, yes, Beaver, showing up with a rifle is pretty much necessary for an insurrection.
It is not a crime to want to overturn an election.
READ the below and hang your tiny brainless, power-lusting shit-head in SHAME for always taking the side of Trumpanzees, power-luster-pig!
https://www.jpost.com/international/kill-him-with-his-own-gun-dc-cop-talks-about-the-riot-655709 also https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/28/michael-fanone-trump-gop-riots/
‘Kill him with his own gun’ – DC cop talks about Capitol riot
DC Police officer Michael Fanone: I had a choice to make: Use deadly force, which would likely result with the mob ending his life, or trying something else.
“Pro-law-and-order” Trumpturds take the side of trumpanzees going apeshit, making cops beg for their lives! For trying to defend democracy against mobocracy! Can you slime-wads sink ANY lower?!?!
What if he had shown up on January with an unloaded rifle he just bought and wanted to share how cool-looking it was?
Simply showing up with a rifle wouldn't be enough, either.
"Holy god, what more do you want..."
Oh, some evidence and adhering to the rule of law would be a good starting place, asshole.
I say that the CHAZ was an insurrection, all those kids need to be locked up on death row and the Democrats in elected positions need to be hung for treason and aiding and abetting an insurrection.
See. I can make claims too.
"Was the Capitol Riot an 'Insurrection,' and Did Trump 'Engage in' It?"
ANSWER: No, the "Capitol Riot" was NOT "Insurrection" and while Trump is a buffoon he did NOT engage in an "Insurrection".
"The Colorado Supreme Court's reasoning in deciding that Trump is constitutionally disqualified from running for president seems iffy."
CORRECTION: It was not an "iffy" decision, but a callous disregard to law and the notion that citizens are innocent until proven guilty. Justice for the Citizens of Colorado would be to expel the 4 justices who ruled in such an unjust manner.
I don't want Trump to be president and although I don't want Biden as president either, both should be allowed to be on the ballot. I would much rather have bad ideas and people rejected through the ballot box than cherry picking who can be on the ballot leaving the only action these bad people and ideas to resort violence.
“I would much rather have bad ideas and people rejected through the ballot box than cherry picking…”
No worries. The “ cherry picking “ part is why this decision goes nowhere. Section 5 of the 14A, plus precedent ( see eg., Oregon v. Mitchell), clearly assigns to congress the authority to regulate federal elections.
The states don’t get to cherry pick who’s on the federal ballot, or we would have had Jefferson Davis as president.
Congress has the power to write legislation modifying Section 3 if it finds it advisable, but might take a lot of time to go through the SCOTUS.
Congress could also pass an amendment to 14A defining insurrection and due process, but submitting it to the states for ratification could be lengthy.
Or, Trump can use the remedy directly offered in Section 3 and ask the House of Representatives to remove his ineligibility established by a Colorado court.
Is there a legal definition of "insurrection"? I've never heard one cited. But to me, insurrection means "Bearing arms against the government of the USA or a state." The only time recently anything even near this has happened was in Portland in 2020.
...Trump had egregiously violated his oath to "faithfully execute" his office and to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution."
One wonders what recent president hasn't violated those things. Repeatedly.
TL;DR
All I needed to read was "iffy" to know that Sullum is as delusional as Colorado's SC. There is nothing "iffy" in this entire situation. Insurrection is a federal crime. It is codified (although I cannot currently cite the actual code). If Trump engaged in "insurrection", and chief executive believes he did, THEN CHARGE HIM!!! Charge, try, convict. Jack Smith is charging Trump with every crime he can possibly think of, yet none of the charges are "insurrection". Someone as ignorant as Jack Smith understands "rule of law". Sullum and 4 Colorado justices are not even as smart as Jack Smith.
There is a massive difference between liberals and conservatives in this country. If President Trump had banned Biden from a ballot - the streets would be running red with blood and fire.
Biden is attempting to ban his political rival from the ballot and there’s no protest in the streets by conservatives.
This fact illustrates the differences perfectly. Conservatives are attempting to use the rule of law and liberals are attempting to use fear, intimidation, riots, violence, and political shenanigans.
"Was the Capitol Riot an 'Insurrection,' and Did Trump 'Engage in' It?"
No, and no.
The article is simply the author expressing his grief.
Isn't there a federal Statute covering Insurrection? Has trump been indicted for insurrection under that statute and convicted of the federal crime of insurrection ? Also if there is a federal statute defining insurrection , how does a state court have standing to charge Trump with a federal crime and try and convict him, if indeed the Colorado trial court did any. of that ?
Indictment and conviction are not required for a 14th Amendment disqualification.
Yes, no, no, and nonsense.
How much confusion can you pack into one comment?
As the courts have repeatedly pointed out, the reference to "engaged in insurrection" in the 14th Amendment is not a reference to a federal statute defining the crime of insurrection.
Therefore, there need not be a criminal conviction of any sort (state or federal) before someone can be disqualified by the 14th Amendment from holding any federal office. That is just as much a factual question as, "is Donald Trump a rapist?" As the judge pointed out, Donald Trump is a rapist, despite never having been convicted of rape, because it has been officially determined that what he did to Jean Carroll was, in fact, "rape".
All your questions about indictment and conviction therefore have no bearing on the issue being discussed.
Fuck off and die, TDS=addled asshole.
Back when you could still get the unedited full speech on YT, I watched it - twice. I invested 3 hours of my life looking for those "incendiary words" that libtards accused Trump of using. Couldn't find them. They don't exist.
But facts don't matter to TDS sufferers.
Strange that so many of the convicted rioters have claimed that they were indeed doing what Trump asked them to do, eh?
Stranger yet is accepting un-supported opinion as "evidence", but TDS-addled shi9ts like you are more than happy to do do.
Fuck off and die.
A person testifying as to their motivation for criminal action is generally considered relevant, but yes, the court/jury is entitled to assess its credibility.
And citation regarding that testimony by a lefty shit advancing a narrative is pretty much assumed to be bullshit, bullshitter.
I'm for any candidate who has violated the 4th amendment (Biden, Trump, knee pad Harris) and anyone in support of the Patriot Act and CIA/NSA domestic spying to be removed from any ballot. What they have done, and support is a true crime of treason.
Sure, good luck with that.
I'm not so sure, myself, but it's nice to see you therefore agree that the 14th Amendment can be used to disqualify someone from federal office.
Riot? Sure. Insurrection? No. 600 douchebags wearing Viking helmets and capes is a threat to our democracy? 8ce heard the Left say for years that the 2nd amendment is useless because our country has nukes and a large military, but simultaneously they say 600 unarmed assholes pose a threat to our democracy? Wtf?
Let's also look at recent trends:
Last election, Trump claims the election was stolen. The election before that, Hillary Clinton claimed Trump stole the election. The election before that, Republicans claimed Obama wasn't an American citizen and stole the election. The election before that, Bush won and Al Gore took the results to the supreme court.
It's almost like this is nothing new and a polarizing trend in US politics.
Anyone remember Stacy Abrams denying her loss for governor?
The headline of this article (and Sullum's apparent take on J6) is tragically confused about what the "insurrection" in question refers to. It wasn't just the rioting which took place at the Capitol which Trump "engaged in", therefore disqualifying him from holding further federal office under the 14th Amendment theory.
Obviously, Trump didn't personally do any rioting. Did he "incite" the rioting? Perhaps. But that, too, misses the point, because it wasn't just the rioting which constituted the insurrection.
As the CO Supreme Court put it, the insurrection, in a factual rather than a criminal sense, involved the "concerted and public use of force or threat of force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the U.S. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish a peaceful transfer of power in this country." In other words, the "insurrection" was the unlawful attempt to stop the transfer of power.
Did Trump in any way use the riot to hinder Congress from doing its duty?
Yes, from its inception, Trump fully intended the J6 crowd to "stop the steal". He may or may not have intended that they actually breach the peace during their "fighting like hell" efforts, but it's hard to interpret his orders regarding the removal of metal detectors in any other way.
Was that hindrance part of a larger plan to keep Trump in power?
Yes, there is significant evidence that the rioting or "protest" directed at Congress by the president was intended to serve as the "battering ram" to force open the doors of the castle, after which the other loyal soldiers would effect the second part of the plan, which was to officially overturn the election results and certify Trump as the winner. The rioters could never accomplish that themselves, so the riot itself could not alone constitute an insurrection.
Yes, various politicians throughout US history have called presidential elections into question in one way or another, but none of them have ever engaged in an insurrection meeting the CO Supreme Court's definition. That is why we're here.
"Yes, from its inception, Trump fully intended the J6 crowd to “stop the steal”. He may or may not have intended that they actually breach the peace during their “fighting like hell” efforts, but it’s hard to interpret his orders regarding the removal of metal detectors in any other way."
It's remarkably easy to interpret it differently, if you don't pathologically hate Trump. He didn't want to insult his supporters, that's all.
"The advance team had relayed to him that the mags were free flowing," Hutchinson said, referring to metal detectors used by the Secret Service, adding that Trump was "concerned about the shot" of the area not being full with people.
"Another leading reason, and likely the primary reason was that he wanted it full and he was angry that we weren't letting people through the mags with weapons," Hutchinson said. "But when we were in the offstage tent, I was in the vicinity of a conversation where I overheard the president say something to the effect of, 'I don't effing care that they have weapons. They're not here to hurt me. Take the effing mags away. Let my people in, they can march to the Capitol from here. Let the people in. Take the effing mags away."
Who were they there to hurt?
You know, most people who carry guns, do so for self defense reasons; The only people they intend to hurt are people attacking them.
Why assume it was any different here? One of the reasons I wasn't at that rally was that I was half expecting it to be attacked by Antifa thugs, and that the DC police wouldn't lift a finger to protect against them. A lot of people shared that concern.
As it happens, no Antifa are reported attacking the rally. But after years of them rioting, and in DC, too, that was by no means a foregone conclusion.
Stuff your TDS up your ass. Your head has been begging for company for years.
Scato can always be depended upon to provide intelligent, insightful commentary.
Usually involving human excrement in some way, for some mysterious reason.
ObviouslyNotSpam can always be depending on to provide dishonest and imbecilic replies.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
The Colorado Supreme Court's ruling on Trump's disqualification raises legitimate concerns. While Trump's actions before and during the Capitol riot were condemnable, defining it as an "insurrection" demands careful scrutiny. The court's vague interpretation of insurrection and reliance on speculative notions of intent seem at odds with the chaotic reality of the events. Trump's culpability should be based on clear evidence of deliberate incitement, not conjecture. The application of Section 3 requires a precise definition of insurrection, which the court fails to provide. A thorough examination is crucial to ensure a fair and constitutionally sound judgment.
As skilled judges, however, they realized that they could actually craft a definition using logic, which did not require the "precision" you seem to think is necessary.
Ah, yes. Legislating from the bench!
Fuck off and die, asshole.
No, it's called "common law". Look it up.
You're parroting media talking points because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Trump did nothing wrong. He didn't incite that violence. He didn't condone the breakin.
You're like the shit-for-brains that believe Sarah Palin said she "could see Russia from her porch", (which she never said), because you remember Tina Fey's line on SNL.
Please don't vote or have children.
Tina Fey was well beyond my SNL-viewing years, I'm afraid, but you have reminded me of the time Donald Trump, attempting to wax eloquent about the Revolutionary War, said:
“Our army manned the air, it rammed the ramparts, it took over the airports, it did everything it had to do, and at Fort McHenry, under the rockets’ red glare, it had nothing but victory,” he said.
What does "ram the ramparts" even mean? LOL.
I think the Colorado Supreme Court declined to specifically define the term, 'insurrection' because under the text of the 14th Amendment, that's Congress's responsibility to define but it has never done it! So like all the previous 14th Amendment, Section 3 cases, it remains an undefined term and remains a matter of discretion, and in this case their discretion is what Trump did constitutes an "insurrection" for the purposes of this constitutional provision. The decision also delivered Trump and the Republican Party an irresistible invitation to appeal the matter to the U.S. Supreme Court, which could uphold the decision and extend it to kick Trump off the ballot in all 50 states (plus DC) if that court decides to hear the matter. Congress at any point can overturn any of these Court decisions with respect to Trump or any or all of the January 6th rioters by a 2/3 vote under the terms of Section 3 as well! Honestly, my opinion is Section 3 of the 14th Amendment is quite soft and sets the bar too high for the political disability to apply; what the amendment should have said, and perhaps a future Congress should propose, is, "Anyone who takes an Oath of Public Office that includes provisions to support this Constitution, and then willfully violates that oath, is ineligible to serve in any future public office ..."
Not true: Congress had defined a federal crime of insurrection before the 14th Amendment was even ratified. The drafters could have referred to the insurrection statute in some way if they had intended the 14th Amendment to require a criminal conviction, but they did not do so.
I suspect the last thing in the world the US Supreme Court would like to do is have to decide if Trump "engaged in insurrection". The Court loses whichever way it decides. Accordingly, I expect they will probably find and use any possible excuse not to decide this case directly.
Technically, Congress would not be "overturning" any court decisions if they voted by 2/3 to remove the disability from Trump and any other J6 oath-takers; they would simply be exercising their right to do so under the 14th Amendment.
That's some real (worthless) straw-grasping pettifoggery, asshole.
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
seems iffy
That's a funny way to say "batshit insane."
A simple word has apparently contrived to disorient many commentaries on this topic: "OR"
The 14/3rd does address "engaging in an insurrection", but even if not, there is an OR condition: "... or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." (meaning enemies of the Constitution). Even if there was no insurrection or rebellion,
Trump clearly DID give aid and comfort to those who wanted to disrupt the constitutional transfer of power. He was even advised that many of those who were at his rally were armed. And, he asserted that he would join those who attacked their "enemies" at the Capitol.
The meaning of "engaged in insurrection" within the context of the 14th Amendment is within the province of the courts to determine. If the US Supreme Court decides that the term covers the things Trump evidently did, then the 14th Amendment could be applied to Trump. (Although there are some other qualifications the Court might find relevant, which could go in Trump's favor, however.)
The same thing is true for "giving aid and comfort". Both terms are subject to interpretation, but you're right: the alternative prong could mean Trump can be found not to have personally "engaged in insurrection" and yet still be disqualified from holding federal office per the 14th Amendment. Fun times.