How To Yell 'Fire' in a Crowded Theater
Aside from narrowly defined exceptions, false speech is protected by the First Amendment.

At a July hearing of the House Select Subcommittee on the Weaponization of the Federal Government, Republican members focused on social media companies' moderation of largely conservative viewpoints and accused the Biden administration of working hand-in-hand with tech companies to censor critics.
The First Amendment generally restricts the actions of the government and not purely private decisions of companies. A spirited, and unsettled, debate is emerging nationwide as to the extent of government pressure on platforms that should render a moderation decision a First Amendment violation.
But some members of the Weaponization Subcommittee sought to minimize the concerns about moderation without engaging in a nuanced discussion about government pressure, or "jawboning."
"I'm an attorney by training, and one of the things I learned very early on in constitutional law is that no right given to the people of the United States is absolute," Rep. Linda Sánchez (D–Calif.) said when asking a witness about the harms of health misinformation. "And that includes the right to free speech because you do not have the right to shout fire in a crowded theater, because it could produce harm and death of people by being false."
Fire in a crowded theater. If you're discussing whether U.S. law should protect allegedly false speech, there is a good chance that someone will say these five words. That person likely wants the government to regulate harmful speech and justifies it by pointing out that the U.S. Supreme Court said that you can never yell "fire" in a crowded theater.
Like much of the speech that those invoking "fire in a crowded theater" are trying to prohibit, the statement is incorrect because sometimes you could yell "fire" in a crowded theater without facing punishment. The theater may actually be on fire. Or you may reasonably believe that the theater is on fire. Or you are singing in a concert, and "fire" is one of your lyrics. Of course, there are scenarios in which intentionally lying about a fire in a crowded theater and causing a stampede might lead to a disorderly conduct citation or similar charge.
The real problem with the "fire in a crowded theater" discourse is that it too often is used as a placeholder justification for regulating any speech that someone believes is harmful or objectionable. In reality, the Supreme Court has defined narrow categories of speech that are exempt from First Amendment protections and set an extraordinarily high bar for imposing liability for other types of speech. As the Supreme Court wrote in 2010, the United States does not have a "free-floating test for First Amendment coverage," and the free speech protections do not "extend only to categories of speech that survive an ad hoc balancing of relative social costs and benefits."
"Fire in a crowded theater" is a derivative of a line in a 1919 Supreme Court opinion, Schenck v. United States, an appeal by a Socialist Party official of his conviction for distributing leaflets that criticized the military draft as a 13th Amendment violation. The Court unanimously rejected his appeal, reasoning that the First Amendment's protections yield to a "clear and present danger" such as the leaflet. Writing for the Court, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote that the "most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic."
The crowded theater scenario was a hypothetical to support a low-burden "clear and present danger" test and the conviction of a military draft critic. Although the Supreme Court has never had the occasion to adjudicate an actual dispute involving a person yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, the Court did at least narrow its "clear and present danger test" in 1969, setting a higher standard for imminent incitement of lawless action.
Yet the "fire in a crowded theater" enthusiasts persist, and they use the hypothetical to justify regulating a wide swath of harmful or objectionable speech without seriously evaluating the unintended consequences of giving the government more censorial power. Just as you cannot yell "fire" in a crowded theater, they argue, you can't say insert false speech here.
But you often can utter or publish a falsehood without a regulator or court having the power to intervene, thanks to a long history of free speech precedent. These rights have not contracted; if anything, courts and legislators have expanded protections for false speech over the years. Of course, U.S. law does not protect all false speech. If a plaintiff meets the many stringent requirements for proving defamation, the defendant may be liable for damages. Regulators may oversee the claims that companies make about their products. Prosecutors may charge defendants with fraud, lying to government officials, and other crimes arising from false statements. There are even scenarios in which lying about a fire in a crowded theater could lead to liability. But the standards for holding speakers liable for false statements are high.
But such nuance is often absent in today's discussions of free speech. After mentioning the crowded theater, Sánchez confirmed with the witness that social media platforms have policies regarding health misinformation. "We are not trying to censor speech," Sánchez said. "We are simply trying to create factually correct information to prevent harm to people, including death, and that's what they were trying to do during COVID."
But alleged misinformation is speech. While some speech undisputedly can be regulated, the Supreme Court has explicitly rejected a broad exception for false speech. Invoking the crowded theater will not magically create an avenue for unchecked censorship.
The concerns about false speech have driven many commentators and politicians to propose new laws that would penalize at least some types of false statements that have long received legal protection. For many of the same reasons that courts and legislatures have protected falsehoods for centuries, imposing broad new "misinformation" laws would be stifling, ripe for abuse, inefficient, and largely inconsistent with the U.S. legal system's approach to false speech.
***
Among the most notable of such recent proposals came from Gov. Jay Inslee on the first anniversary of the January 6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol. The Washington state Democrat issued a press release that touted his support for "legislation currently being written that would outlaw attempts by candidates and elected officials to spread lies about free and fair elections when it has the likelihood to stoke violence." State lawmakers, he said in the statement, were drafting a bill that would create a gross misdemeanor for elected officials or political candidates in Washington state who tell knowing lies about elections.
"The proposed law is narrowly tailored to capture only those false statements that are made for the purpose of undermining the election process or results and is further limited to lies that are likely to incite or cause lawlessness," Inslee said. Inslee appeared to rely on Brandenburg v. Ohio, the 1969 case that refined the Schenck v. United States "clear and present danger" test that Holmes articulated in 1919. "The U.S. Supreme Court has made it clear that speech can be limited where it is likely to incite lawlessness," Inslee's press release stated. But the statement did not capture the narrowness of the Brandenburg opinion. In that ruling, the Court wrote that the First Amendment prohibits state regulation of advocacy unless that advocacy "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." Inslee's press release omitted any mention of an imminence requirement. As First Amendment scholar and Volokh Conspiracy blogger Eugene Volokh told Reason, imminence is a high bar. An example of imminent lawless action, Volokh said, is "standing outside a police station and yelling 'burn it down.'" Claiming fraudulent election results, Volokh said, is not incitement.
Therein was the problem with Inslee's initial proposal. While it was well-intentioned and arose from a legitimate desire to prevent a repeat of the unrest at the Capitol, Inslee could not easily explain how a politician's lie about election administration rose to the level of imminent incitement of lawless action.
Throughout January 2022, Inslee tried to justify the proposal as constitutional and urgently necessary. At an event on the day of his announcement, which took place as former President Donald Trump continued to contest the election results, Inslee resorted to a comfortable and censorious metaphor. "The defeated president as recently as an hour ago is yelling fire in the crowded theater of democracy," Inslee said. But no amount of references to fires or crowds or theaters could justify jailing politicians just because their speech was found to be untrue.
Perhaps in response to the criticism that Inslee's announcement received, lawmakers over the next few weeks consulted legal scholars and released a revised version of the bill. The proposal begins with legislative findings that contain bold statements about Washington state's election integrity. The bill would create a gross misdemeanor, punishable by up to 364 days in jail, for any elected official or candidate who "knowingly, recklessly, or maliciously makes false statements or claims related to any pending or completed and certified election conducted in the state, regarding the legitimacy or integrity of the election process or election results," provided that the false speech: (1) is "intended to incite or produce imminent lawless action and do incite or produce such action resulting in harm to a person or to property"; (2) is "made for the purpose of undermining the election process or the election results"; or (3) "falsely claim[s] entitlement to an office that an elected official or candidate did not win after any lawful challenge made pursuant to this title is completed and the election results are certified."
To the credit of those who drafted the revised bill, they at least tried to hew more closely to the language of Brandenburg than Inslee did in his press release. But even the narrower language—tying the false statements to imminent lawless action—was not guaranteed to survive constitutional scrutiny. And the revised bill covered two other types of false speech that were unrelated to the Brandenburg standard.
At a January 28, 2022, hearing on the bill, then–state Sen. David Frockt (D–Seattle), the bill's primary sponsor, discussed the delicate balancing act that was required to address election lies while adhering to United States v. Alvarez, Brandenburg, and other First Amendment precedents. "It's kind of like trying to drive a toaster through a car wash," Frockt said. "You have to get it just right. And so we do not take the First Amendment for granted. I don't. We don't treat it cavalierly." Others who testified were more skeptical both about the bill's constitutionality and its potential impacts.
Paul Guppy, vice president for research of the conservative Washington Policy Center think tank, pointed to the state's close 2004 gubernatorial election, which required a recount that lasted more than a month. "That was exactly a time period when we needed the maximum open and transparent debate of different opinions about what was happening with that election than ever," Guppy said. "If this bill had been in effect, public officials and candidates would have been restricted or chilled or fearful about what they could say about that election." The bill could undermine its primary goal, Guppy said. "It doesn't increase the confidence in the outcome of the election," he said. "It actually creates more suspicion when people are not allowed to debate the outcome of elections honestly."
The opposition was substantial enough to prevent the bill from passing. A few weeks after the hearing, Frockt issued a statement acknowledging that the proposal would not progress in the legislature in 2022.
***

Had the bill passed, would it have survived a constitutional challenge? It is hard to predict with certainty. The revised bill at least attempted to address First Amendment concerns by mimicking the Brandenburg imminent incitement standard. While adding the Brandenburg language increases the chances of the law surviving First Amendment challenges, it also reduces the number of scenarios in which the government could hold a politician accountable for lying about election integrity.
In a 1973 opinion, Hess v. Indiana, the U.S. Supreme Court highlighted the narrowness of the Brandenburg exception that it had articulated four years earlier. The case involved an antiwar protest at Indiana University. After police began clearing the street, the defendant said something like "We'll take the fucking street later" and was arrested for disorderly conduct. The Supreme Court reversed his conviction, finding that the Brandenburg exception did not apply. "Since the uncontroverted evidence showed that [the defendant's] statement was not directed to any person or group of persons, it cannot be said that he was advocating, in the normal sense, any action," the Court wrote. "And since there was no evidence, or rational inference from the import of the language, that his words were intended to produce, and likely to produce, imminent disorder, those words could not be punished by the State on the ground that they had a tendency to lead to violence."
Even with the Brandenburg language, the Washington law still might face First Amendment problems. A politician challenging the law might argue that the uncertainty about what constitutes imminent incitement would chill a wider swath of constitutionally protected speech. A politician who has legitimate concerns about how an election was administered may understandably refrain from saying anything to avoid even the prospect of being prosecuted and sentenced to up to a year in prison. Even though the prosecution would face a high burden of proving all elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt, it is not inconceivable that a politically biased judge could sway a guilty verdict. Even if they were not ultimately convicted, they would need to spend substantial time and money defending the case. Perhaps it is more attractive to not say anything about their concerns.
Nor does the bill's limitation to knowing, malicious, or reckless falsehoods directed toward particular goals eliminate concerns of a chilling effect, as illustrated in the 8th Circuit's opinion in 281 Care Committee v. Arneson. In striking down a Minnesota law that criminalized intentional falsehoods about ballot questions, the court rejected the argument that limiting the misdemeanor to intentional falsehoods avoided constitutional problems. "The risk of chilling otherwise protected speech is not eliminated or lessened by the mens rea requirement because, as we have already noted, a speaker might still be concerned that someone will file a complaint with the [Office of Administrative Hearings], or that they might even ultimately be prosecuted, for a careless false statement or possibly a truthful statement someone deems false, no matter the speaker's veracity," the court wrote. "Or, most cynically, many might legitimately fear that no matter what they say, an opponent will utilize [the law] to simply tie them up in litigation and smear their name or position on a particular matter, even if the speaker never had the intent required to render him liable."
Even if the Washington bill were somehow found to comport with the First Amendment, I question whether it would meet its goals of instilling further confidence in elections and preventing repeats of the January 6 violence. The mere presence of the law on Washington state's books might make some segments of the public more skeptical of the state's elections procedures, perhaps fueling speculation that politicians might be aware of problems but stay quiet out of fear of jail time. This would not be an unreasonable worry; after all, they might think, why would Washington state need to threaten politicians with jail time if its elections actually were secure?
It is far from certain that such a law would substantially reduce the most harmful false speech about elections. Trump and some other elected officials spread false claims about the 2020 elections, but they were not the only ones. Washington state's proposed law does not (and could not) regulate false speech spread by talk radio hosts, social media trolls, foreign governments, and others.
The opposition to and failure of Washington state's proposal reveals the many difficulties of addressing falsehoods through legal penalties. First Amendment precedent guides the legal analysis, but even if it survived a constitutional challenge, the law would reveal many practical problems in effectively regulating false speech. All the reasons for allowing falsehoods apply to arguments against new misinformation regulations. Censorial new laws threaten to chill the ability of people to express criticism of those in power. They also reduce the ability of speakers to shine light on public functions such as the elections system. And it's unclear whether they are effective.
This article is adapted from Liar in a Crowded Theater: Freedom of Speech in a World of Misinformation by permission of Johns Hopkins University Press.
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"But no amount of references to fires or crowds or theaters could justify jailing politicians just because their speech was found to be untrue."
Can we at least make one exception and jail Obama for his lies of "if you like your plan you can keep your plan" and the ACA will "save a family $2500 per year" in health care costs?
No? I guess the exception only applies to Trump and his supporters. And "untrue" is defined as "speech that goes against the left's narrative".
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The ACA made it so that my employer's free (to employees) 'cadillac plan' healthcare policy:
1. Needed to be downgraded to fit within the government limits.
2. Became much more expensive for my employer.
3. Was no longer free to employees.
4. ALL of the above
The ACA has cost me over $1000 per year for the last decade or so. That's a chunk of change.
Exact same thing happened to me - my company had great benefits that had to be downgraded, and which then got much more expensive.
On a related note, my mother had a low-premium catastrophic plan that she liked, but that Obama didn't, so it got cancelled. Didn't get to keep her doctor, either.
It’s all about censoring opinions.
Conservative opinions. The left can do anything they want with impunity.
I want to see what happens when some day someone yells "theater" in a crowded fire.
LARP'ers . . .
fuck just yell "theater!" in a crowded theater and half the people will freak
Could you yell "There are only two genders!" in a crowded theater? That would cause a panic nowadays.
There are two sexes and zero genders.
Could you yell fire in a theater that wasn't crowded?
I’m an attorney by training, and one of the things I learned very early on in constitutional law is that no right given to the people of the United States is absolute,” Rep. Linda Sánchez (D–Calif.) said
Methinks Linda Snatchez doesn’t understand rights guaranteed vs rights given. “Shall not be infringed” is one example.
I agree with you, but our right to bear arms has indeed been infringed by the government.
Yeah, that was my point. Even something as clear as "Shall not be infringed" is ignored by gov't prefects.
“Rights given” is not how this country is set up.
Commie-Education "attorney by training" apparently is teaching otherwise. I'm just not sure if people buy these blatant lies in school out of pure ignorant stupidity or they willfully buy known lies out of the need to feel-special acting like a tyrannical dictator.
Commie-Education “attorney by training” apparently is teaching otherwise.
It does. Natural rights advocates are looked at as kooks by the legal establishment.
That's OK, I look at the legal establishment as kooks.
No it's not OK, because they're the ones manipulating the levers of power.
You misspelled "crooks."
Precisely so. As I am fond of noting, the Constitution is a delegation of power from the People, not a granting of rights by the government. (This is why when it comes to new technology - whether cars or the internet, it is not up to the People to show why they have relevant rights but for the government to show that they have the delegated authority to administer or legislate.)
This may be true, and perhaps "lawyers by training" who are US Representatives should be more concise with their language, but the average person would probably interchange "given" and "guaranteed" without giving it a second thought.
It's silly to read too much into this choice of words.
The silly choice of words is exactly the Nazi propaganda turning US citizens into Nazi fanboys.
With very few exceptions, anyone who quotes that stupid "fire in a theater" line is looking to trample perfectly legitimate speech that they happen to not like. And probably needs a beating.
You just quoted it.
It's amazing how many people leave out "falsely" when they quote that. Like they know that they lie more than whatever speaker they are trying to suppress.
But it was a lie in the first place - the law Schenk was prosecuted under didn't care about truth or falsity, and although I'm sure Schenk's pamphlets were BS, I can't imagine the government deciding the prove that and allowing full discovery of either how we got into WWI or how we conducted it.
And it is utterly ridiculous to compare distributing reading material to shouting "fire" in a crowded theater. I've long wondered whether Holmes decision (reversing his previous opinions) was somehow compelled, and he retaliated by writing what he thought everyone could see was complete nonsense. If so, he greatly overestimate the American legal profession, politicians, and the public in general.
Therein was the problem with Inslee's initial proposal. While it was well-intentioned and arose from a legitimate desire...
Given Inslee's character, there is no interpretation of his proposal that should lead a rational individual to give him credit for anything but mal-intentions.
I question whether it would meet its goals of instilling further confidence in elections and preventing repeats of the January 6 violence.
Again, given Inslee's character, under no circumstances is that a reasonable interpretation of his goal. The level of naivete in believing Inslee, or any other thug trying to suppress or criminalize an opponent's speech, is depressing.
"I'm an attorney by training, and one of the things I learned very early on in constitutional law is that no right given to the people of the United States is absolute,"
Except the Constitution doesn't give rights. It recognizes and protects them. It's as if she never heard of the 9A.
^This
^Second This
Or "Congress will pass no law"
nice to see you.
I've spoken with a few attorneys on this subject and all of them said that rights come from government. None of them had even considered the concept of natural rights.
Natural rights are a separate idea, Fictions aside, there aren't any,
But still, did all these attorneys sleep through constitutional jurisprudence?
you'd be surprised at the number.
If rights don’t come from the Constitution, where do they come from? At least that’s the argument I get.
What do you say? God? Nature? Humanity? Hobbes? Logic and reason?
verticality and ventilation.
Rights are mutually agreed-upon fictions. In some cases, you can argue that there are distinct survival advantages in having certain rights, e.g., right to self-defence. But that is a reason/logic deduction from the initial assumption that survival advantage is desirable - which is mutually agreed-upon.
Rights are mutually agreed-upon fictions.
The concept of rights naturally flows from any concept of morality/ethics. Unless one rejects the concept of morality entirely, there is such a thing as rights.
In much the same way, to the extent that there is any such thing as "desire," desire for "survival advantage" is about as fundamental as it gets.
"Rights are mutually agreed-upon fictions." So said every thug ever.
I desire my survival and can exercise it whether you desire it or not. Survival is the ultimate goal of any living thing. And if man's life as a rational animal is a good, then thinking, producing, and exchanging are all acts which he may do by right and the impediment of which he may by right resist in self-defense.
To paraphrase The Coop, “Ya wanna call me a slave?…Smile!”
https://youtu.be/QlyUeUz1awU?si=0ekfC56r5G7V0U2x
Or maybe Trump was spot-on the truth as he has been more-so than any other president and Democrats are insisting everyone stays in their seats by censoring the fire alarm while the theater with them inside burns to the ground...
...because that's what Nazi's have a history of doing.
der. set the fire first.
Schenck was incorrectly decided. Holmes was afraid of leaflets.
today's Court is afraid of the B Administration. 6-3 to not yet decide on whether Brandon can be Downpressor Man
Even as narrow as the Supreme Court has ruled on exceptions, the high bar they have raised is not high enough. If I say something false and you believe it, the responsibility is YOURS if you act upon it and suffer harm as a result.
But if I start criminalizing even the patently false, I anesthetize and cripple the critical faculty that must in case be exercised. Biden said that he was mad at the unvaccinated because they were causing deaths, yet we know now that 80% of those deaths were fully vaccinated. Biden should be in jail, not for false statements, but for laziness and abuse of power. Not much to do with speech really
" . . . false speech is protected by the First Amendment."
But true speech, opposing left wing ideology is anathema, and an invitation to abuse and jail time.
In case anybody's missed it, there's a Declaration signed by many familiar thinkers which decries censorship in the name of "Misinformation/Disinformation/Mali formation" (MDM *Growl!*)
The Westminster Declaration
https://westminsterdeclaration.org/
While it is on shaky ground by basing itself on The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the nebulous, contradictory concept of "democratic rights," Libertarians can nevertheless defend what they are saying with the proper foundations of Natural Rights to Freedom of Thought and government limited to protection of that right.
another commenter put it best.
https://reason.com/2022/01/10/washingtons-governor-wants-to-prevent-another-january-6-with-unconstitutional-censorship/?comments=true#comment-9297976
- Libby Terry-Ann
Then you didn't pay attention your first year. I mean, pull out Black's Law dude. "An absolute right or right that belongs to every human being, such as the right of personal liberty; a natural right."
They're all absolute, by virtue of the fact that they're guarantees - as opposed to permissions/dispensations from government. That is their default setting. When they're abridged, it's almost always on account of a conflict of rights or a Constitutionally valid competing interest.
And when anyone ever talks to you about the non-absolute nature of the 1st or 2nd Amendment (which are favorite targets of that BS claim) - come back at them with the same argument made for the 6A assistance of counsel or 8th against cruel punishment. Or, if they're a chick, the 19th. What "non-absolute" exceptions should be made for them?
They won't have an answer. They never do.
it’s almost always on account of a conflict of rights
No such thing. Any time you think you see a conflict of rights, one or both of them is not really a right.
+^
Rights are unalienable and therefore there is no conflict, it is only at the higher level , namely the Common Good, that we can see what is serving those rights. So "fire" in a theater that is not burning serves NO common good. Throw the bastard in jail
remove the argument to its nature and not whether it is absolute.
IT IS UNALIENABLE and never does that impinge on ABSOLUTE. They are not the same. You can NEVER override an unalienable right, but in the clash of unalienable rights you must repair to common good.
WHICH IS
"The civil power must not be subservient to the advantage of any one individual, or of some few persons; inasmuch as it was established for the common good of all."
It must be clearly laid down that the principal function of public authorities is to recognize, respect, co-ordinate, safeguard and promote citizens' rights and duties
Nazi Germany started with claims that no right is absolute
Dietrich von Hildebrand:
"Von Hildebrand recounts many stories of academic conferences with Franciscan priests and philosophy professors who “overemphasized the notion of community at the expense of the individual.” Because they were “infected by this collectivistic tendency,” they advocated ideas that deny the fundamental dignity of the human person. These ideas paved the philosophic path for collectivism and, in turn, a justification of anti-Semitism. The small concessions became large compromises. The philosophical rhetoric became physical reality. Eventually, the actions that flowed from the collectivism espoused at these conferences justified sending truckloads of Jews to the gas chambers. It all began with an idea, for which many lived and millions died."
A law criminalizing "lies" about the security of our elections will inevitably criminalize all criticism of the elections.
Who decides whats a lie and what isn't in the context of enforcing this law? The government obviously.
What government would ever concede the election that brought them to power may have been stolen? None. To do so would label themselves illegitimate.
Ergo any and all criticism will be deemed "lies" and thus criminalized.
Misek hardest hit. But then, that's what he wants. When his gang is in power.
All very nice but lawyers will expensively and protractedly debate all the way to the SCOTUS
1) How distinct must the word be?
2) what is the definition of crowded ?
3) what legally is a 'theater" ?
Let attendants at the theater deal with that fellow. THAT IS JUSTICE, A theater-goer being tried by his peers , other theater-goers. That's my legal view.
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