Who Is—and Isn't—Ready To Change Their Minds About the Gaza Hospital Blast?
The limits of "we just don't believe you" as a news-consuming habit

After first the Israeli government and then the United States government issued statements Wednesday, with supporting evidence, that the deadly rocket exploding into the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital parking lot in Gaza on Tuesday did not emanate from Israel, Jordanian Foreign Minister Ayman Safadi gave an expected if telling response.
"Nobody is buying that narrative in this part of the world," Safadi told NBC. Safadi's predecessor (and also Jordan's former ambassador to Israel), Marwan Muasher, echoed that in an interview with CNN: "The Arab public puts the attack squarely on Israel."
As generalized descriptions of Jordanian public sentiment, these declarations are doubtlessly true, if on the absolutist side. Public opinion research prior to the Hamas massacre and kidnapping of Israeli non-combatants October 7 showed a population primed to disbelieve claims from its western neighbor, particularly when it comes to the plight of repressed Palestinians.
A March-April Washington Institute survey of 1,000 randomly selected Jordanian citizens showed that 84 percent opposed doing business with Israeli companies, 76 percent think Jordan should refuse Israeli humanitarian aid even during a natural catastrophe, and a distressing 60 percent had positive views about Hamas firing rockets into Israel. A June-December 2022 poll by the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies put opposition to diplomatic recognition of Israel at an overwhelming 94 percent. And an April 2022 poll by the Center for Strategic Studies found a national plurality of 45 percent, and a supermajority of 87 percent among a subset described as "experts," agreeing with the statement that the greatest regional source of security threats was—note the language—"the presence of Israel."
So Jordanian predispositions partly explain why the country has been rocked by massive and occasionally violent street demonstrations since the hospital bombing. But those protests have also been fueled by the Jordanian government, whose King Abdullah II called the explosion "a heinous war crime that cannot be ignored," declared three days of national mourning, then cancelled a planned meeting with President Joe Biden.
Abdullah is no mere regal ornament. "The king plays a dominant role in politics and governance," the nonprofit global rankings outfit Freedom House concluded in its 2023 report, declaring Jordan "not free" and ranking it at 145th for freedom in the world. (The United States was 59th, Israel 74th; both were deemed "free.") "The media and civil society groups are hampered by restrictive laws and government pressure," the group noted. "Various statutes penalize defamation, criticism of the king or state institutions, harming Jordan's relations with foreign states, blasphemy, and any content considered to lack objectivity."
Reporters Without Borders puts Jordan 146th in its 2023 World Press Freedom Index (the U.S. is 45th, Israel 97th); the 2023 Global Expression Report has the kingdom at 115th, in the "highly restricted" category, with the U.S. 21st ("open") and Israel 49th ("less restricted"). It is reasonable to infer that Jordanian public opinion is under the measurable influence of its monarchical government. Which, like the also repressive regimes of nearby Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Turkey, has not let new information dislodge initial certitude in blaming Israel for a calamity that is thankfully diminishing in lethality by the minute.
"The only way that people would entertain a different narrative," Jordanian Foreign Minister Safadi told NBC, "is if there is an independent international inquiry into the tragedy that has happened with impeccable evidence that it was not Israel."
Focus for a moment not on Safadi's understandable if currently unfulfillable desire for an independent international inquiry (such inquests being rather hard to pull off when the host government is holding more than 200 people hostage), but rather on the words only, entertain, and impeccable. It is considered to be a reasonable default position that all Muslims in the region believe the hospital bombing was Israeli "genocide" (as labeled by Hamas), a "hideous war crime" (Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas), or "the latest example of Israel [being] devoid of the most basic human values" (President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of NATO member Turkey). Only an unattainable standard of evidence could begin to pry open minds currently snapped shut; until then, let those embassies burn.
The Israelis, with some level of detail, say that their bombs leave much bigger craters than the divot in the parking lot, that video evidence shows a Gaza-fired rocket that exploded and went sideways, that the damage is consistent with how Hamas rockets damage Israeli targets, that there is no physical evidence of Israeli munitions on the scene, that they have no record of firing anything in that time/place, and that they have intercepted Hamas audio from Gaza discussing the misfire in real time. The best case against Israel's hospital claims ("about as good as it gets," says the disgraced NBC "disinformation" hunter Ben Collins) comes down to saying that the audio sounds fake, some of the information was contradictory, and that the Israelis have lied in the past. The exculpatory evidence on the Gaza side is far less impressive.
But as can be observed every day in less consequential political discourse, we just don't believe you is among the most potent of overrides when it comes to assessing factual claims. Those who assign Israelis, and their American sponsors, with central blame for the conflicts in the Middle East, end up treating the accused as guilty until proven innocent. "Israel…is the least trustworthy source about the bombing of the hospital in Gaza," asserted the subhed on a Wednesday Scheer Post column from former New York Times Mideast correspondent Chris Hedges that repeated several Hamas-generated claims that have since been debunked.
For a more sober presentation of a similar sentiment, here's Beirut journalist (and Reason contributor) Michael Young, writing Thursday at Carnegie Mellon's Diwan:
Israel has insisted that the hospital attack was the result of a malfunctioning Islamic Jihad rocket. Yet without a neutral investigation, why should anyone believe the Israelis? They lied about the Qana massacre in April 1996 in Lebanon, saying the bombing of a United Nations base was a mistake, before a UN investigation contradicted this assessment. Similarly, the Israelis lied about the killing of journalist Shireen Abou Aqleh in May 2022. After first blaming Palestinians, the Israelis later concluded there was a "high possibility" she had been "accidentally" hit by Israeli gunfire directed at Palestinian gunmen. However, investigations by several media outlets, including CNN, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Associated Press, in addition to Bellingcat and a UN-mandated body, refuted key aspects of the Israeli narrative.
Even assuming that the Gaza hospital was hit mistakenly by a Palestinian rocket, publics on both sides are so polarized today that no one is really interested in the truth. In other words, Israel has caused enough victims, and committed enough war crimes (as has Hamas) in its current military campaign, that many people both in the region and internationally have limited patience for permitting an open-ended invasion of Gaza that causes more carnage among the civilian population.
Note the fatalism in the second paragraph. It's a grim situation indeed if "no one is really interested in the truth." Which is why we need to insist on it—from our news organizations, from our governments, from ourselves.
If Israel fired the rocket that hit the hospital, or fired the rocket that knocked the Gazan rocket off course and toward the hospital, and then went to such extraordinary lengths to cover it up and lie about it to an American president making an unprecedented visit during wartime, then the consequences for bilateral relations and military support should be grave. If, on the other hand, Gazans fired the rocket, lied about it, and wildly exaggerated the death toll, then not only do news organizations need to engage in a series of corrections and professional self-inventory, but the leaders of surrounding states should retract their own accusations, both to the world community and to their own beleaguered populations.
That such potential mea culpas in any direction are unlikely do not make them less aspirational. We will all personally do better as news consumers and sharers if we demand rigor for ourselves. Expecting the same from others, including those who disagree with us, is an essential pre-condition for treating them with respect, instead of like children who can't handle the truth.
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Jordanians believe a line of bullshit because their king tells them so.
Why does that seem so familiar?
Is this another nasty jab at Joe Biden?
If you think Biden is a cult of personality with followers who suspend reality to believe whatever he says, then sure.
aren't they all, dude?
No. They're not. Biden least of all. He's never had a cult following. Very few people actually support the guy. His support mainly comes in the form of "He's not Trump."
Some people are just NOT suitable for cult leadershit! Can you imagine a "cult of Al Gore, the Bore"? Ever meet a lawyer who will argue till the cows come home, about THE most boring and inconsequential crap?
Ever meet a lawyer who will argue till the cows come home, about THE most boring and inconsequential crap?
I did, until John left the comments.
John was a big fan of Dubya and Sarah Palin.
Maybe he didn't leave. He just changed his name to JesseAz.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
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John could be stubborn when he got into defense mode, but he argued in good faith and didn’t hold grudges. We disagreed all the time but he didn’t make it personal. That’s why I liked him. He was a class act.
Unless he decided every day is opposite day, he didn’t change his name to JesseAz.
You keep misusing good faith and bad faith. Do you just not know the definitions of things?
It's rather amusing that no matter what I say, you are guaranteed to claim I don't know what I'm talking about. Doesn't matter what it is. It's like a default reaction. "I'll say he doesn't know what he's talking about, get him to defend himself, then I'll make shit up for him to defend!"
You really need a new hobby.
Can you cite a single time you've said something backed by evidence and not a bald assertion or a bumper sticker opinion?
Look at the two neocon leftist becoming such friends.
Before continuing to demand another Jewish holocaust,,, communist democrats like buttplug should review what happened to the extreme left wing nazis at the Nuremburg trials.... those progressives (nazis) all ended up swinging by the neck from a dirty rope.
LOL. Aren't you a precious little clown.
I wonder how Hitler would feel about being called a communist.
He would rip your head off and piss down your neck.
That would be fun to watch.
Hey pussy! You got your Pedo friend whit knighting for you again. And it’s always so cool to see a gutless, alcoholic cowardly piece of shit like you disparage a decent guy like John.
It really is a shame your liver hasn’t failed yet.
The democrats are marching in every major city screaming DEATH TO THE JEWS. The repubes are cowering and trying to pretend they aren't just like the democrats.
I haven't seen the democrats this upset since Lincoln took the slaves away from them.
Yes, "The Jews will not replace us." - Trump Supporters.
Thank God they are Liberals.
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Media and the left use propaganda to lie yo everyone and began violent protests. Sarc finds a way to point at trump.
The entire DNC is a cult. The Joe Cool and Dark Biden memes prove you're full of shit as usual.
I must say your talent for projection is noteworthy.
I see you're misusing another word. Ironically your initial claims of others here is found in nearly every post you made in this thread. That is actual projection buddy. Lol.
You’re such a sad, pathetic pussy.
Poor pour Sarc.
Biden's just the figurehead. The Puppet-In-Chief.
So obviously! and the puppet master ISNT obama… he was just as much a puppet of the alphabet agencies and foreign policy establishment
I’d guess that the only NON-puppets since the formation of the MIC were Kennedy,Johnson, Nixon, and Trump
Eisenhower could obviously feel its growing influence.
Biden's goal is to get rid of the U.S. Constitution and Individual rights... maybe slaughter a few Jewish folks in the process...
In that measure, he has been extremely successful thus far.
moved
Sarc, you never said "cult of personality" in the original post. You said “king” that is completely different. Trump isn’t a king. Why don’t you ever reply to anything but the voices in your head?
/sarcasmic style pedantry
JesseAz engages in a common, and dishonest, rhetorical technique. It involves slipping some premise into an argument and hoping the other person doesn't notice. When the other person goes on without refuting it, the dishonest person says "Ah ha! You didn't disagree with xyz so you totally believe it and all these other things!"
I don't fall for it, and it makes him angry.
Find me an example of this sarc. Because this morning it was literally quoting your post and you cried about me misrepresenting you.
Again. Youre too stupid to try these rhetorical tricks. And you seem to have this habit of then accessing others of doing what you've been caught doing.
Pussy, you’re incredibly dishonest. Jess isn’t. You would really benefit from a series of savage beatings. It would help improve your manners.
Biden is just the current representative of the tribal cult in question.
The guy with a personality cult is Trump and we see it in the comment section here.
80mm people refuse to acknowledge that he is senile. Same group lost their shit over a covefe typo or that one time Trump walked down a handicap ramp. Same group has no issues with Biden family business dealings, but was mortified that Trump tried to build a hotel in Russia that one time.
The absurd hypocrisy that exists nowadays is pretty impressive to behold.
It Cecil B DeMille in scope!
Only, in its latest incarnation in the middle east it is more Sam Peckinpah
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We all believe what we are told. The "official" word is the truth.
A March-April Washington Institute survey of 1,000 randomly selected Jordanian citizens showed that 84 percent opposed doing business with Israeli companies, 76 percent think Jordan should refuse Israeli humanitarian aid even during a natural catastrophe, and a distressing 60 percent had positive views about Hamas firing rockets into Israel. A June-December 2022 poll by the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies put opposition to diplomatic recognition of Israel at an overwhelming 94 percent.
This'll be an easy conflict to negotiate our way through...
I'm guessing there's going to be some agreeing to disagree in the region's future.
The current powers that be are driving us headlong into world war 3, and Reason hasn't touched anything beyond kid gloves treatment of media messing up the hospital (parking lot) bombing
The media "messed up" that story the same way Germany "messed up" that weekend trip to the Sudetenland.
“The media and civil society groups are hampered by restrictive laws and government pressure,” the group noted. “Various statutes penalize defamation, criticism of the king or state institutions, harming Jordan’s relations with foreign states, blasphemy, and any content considered to lack objectivity.”
The fact that Jordan punishes content considered to lack objectivity shows that, to them, objectivity does not mean what we think they think it means.
To King Abdullah II and his minions– and all others who want to outlaw “Misinformation/Disinformation/Mwlinformation” (MDM. *Growl!*)–“objectivity” is like the Tostitos hackneyed ad term “Corn-thenticity.”
This is why we need to kill all the Muslims. The most basic tenet of Islam is to kill or enslave all the non-believers. As they say, a radical Muslim wants to chop your head off, a moderate Muslim wants a radical Muslim to chop your head off. Fuck 'em all. They want to be martyrs for the cause? I think their terms are acceptable.
If Israel is going to get blamed whether they bomb the hospitals or not... might as well bomb the fucking hospitals, and everything else in sight.
The idea of Islam is what has to be killed, not every person accidentally born into that millieu. Not everyone born into Islamic society practices it's worst doctrines. Even Ex-Muslim Atheists Ibn Warraq, Salman Rushdie, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali would say and have said that.
As for those who do practice Jihad, Sha'ria, slavery, "honor killings," and Female Genital Mutilation...no mercy! Sick 'em and leave no trace they ever existed!
How are you going to separate them?
Let Allah sort em out.
You want that? Then actually act on your Islamophobia and declare war on the religion!
Neither irrational, nor a fear.
I do not accep their conclusion, but can still recognize that it is a reasoned position based upon observable facts and rational analysis of prior and ongoing threats to Western civilization.
Where we differ is that while I do not yet think it necessary to kill them all, I do think we have not killed nearly enough. Especially since there are so many who whole heartedly deserve it.
Children, Dissenters, and Apostates in the Islamic world are off-limits to me. (Contrary to the tenets of Islam, children are not born Islamic or with any other ideas.) However, dynamite vest wearers, slavers, and members of Islamic regimes or terrorist groups are all ripe pickings.
Islamophobia is not my position or condition. Miso-Islam-ia would be a better description.
Ironic
>>"Nobody is buying that narrative in this part of the world,"
words and hundreds of millions of U.S. dollars don't mean a motherfucking thing to the animal side of the conflict.
To be fair, if I were a Middle-Eastern Muslim, I'm pretty sure I'd have a bit of a hard time taking much the U.S. or Israeli governments have to say at face value.
from Texas I don't believe them lol
I'm a Midwestern American and I don't believe most of what I see hear read in the news; but I do after a time allow myself to be influenced by objective information over my personal paradigms.
Seconded.
thirded
And I think if we’re being honest – Trumps ascendance and successes and failures have been an accelerant to this process. Its just that the plurality appear to lack self-reflection/awareness or are too dogma and emotion bound. These are the ones we see consigned to the purgatory of personal hypocrisy.
Disagreeing with Muslims in the ME isn't hard, it's hitting the ground at the end that's hard.
If you were a middle-eastern Muslim, you'd be hearing a heavily curated and likely distorted version of what the US and Israel were saying. Taking the actual statements "at face value" wouldn't even be on the menu because you'd never actually hear them within context or as they were presented into the world.
An analogue to the situation would be like the dust-ups around Joe Rogan and Ivermectin. If you listened to Joe Rogan's show, you'd hear a few minutes out of a three hour episode discussing that Joe's doctor prescribed a raft of multiple treatments when he tested positive for Covid 19 and asked the doctor to "throw the kitchen sink at it"; Rogan was treated with monoclonal antibody transfusions, targeted antivirals, steroids, and human-dosed ivermectin (a generic anti-parasitic drug which has been administered to human patients hundreds of millions of times over 50+ years, and has so few side effects that it's been cleared as safe for pregnant women, and is required by the CDC as a prophylactic treatment for anyone coming into the USA from a part of the world where parasites are relatively common), and that Joe's symptoms abated in 3-4 days. If you only read about it on vox or heard the coverage on CNN, Rogan spent the bulk of his show repeatedly claiming that ivermectin alone had eliminated his symptoms almost instantly, and that ivermectin was "horse paste" used only as a vetinary treatment to treat worms in large animals; then came a second wave of reports about hospitals being "overwhelmed with ivermectin overdoses" to the point where gunshot victims were left untreated. People I know on the left who choose to be in that news silo, never had the option to take Rogan's statements "at face value" because they had no awareness of what was actually said; the main difference between the US left, and Muslims in the Middle East is that the former group has access to the true information but they choose not to seek it out, while the latter group may or may not even be aware of the manipulation around what they're being told.
well said.
Then again the THREE drugs combined that Donald Trump told us about were used in remote and disadvantaged areas where that was all there was. There are LITERALLY scores of small scale studies based on actual local hospital results of those being the ONLY drugs available. The interesting thing is that in virtually every case in remote poor countries, when C-19 hit, the mortality was much less and the cases much less severe when these three drugs were used.
The fact is that even today, several years later NOT ONE DRUG COMPANY has attempted to have their Covid vaccinations approved through regular process and channels and in fact they are NOT even applying.
All Covid tax drugs are considered emergency released experimental drugs and every drug company is given a free pass from being sued, even if the government, an employer or someone else mandated them.
Please, if you wish to discuss C19 drugs and what actually happened and is currently happening then at least get it straight!
Thing is: An anti-parasitic drug is not the same as an anti-viral drug. COVID-19 is a virus.
However, if it reduces swelling in the respiratory system, it could help alleviate symptoms. It won't kill the infection, but it can mitigate the effects. It's not nonsensical. Later studies didn't support effectiveness, but that's different.
The problem was almost a knee-jerk "if Trump said it, it's wrong". For example, NBC wrote an article about injecting peroxide as a COVID treatment (actually an old, pre-antibiotics treatment with a long history), Trump mentions it in passing, and suddenly the media is claiming he told everyone to drink bleach, complete with fully fabricated stories about people doing it.
I saw people literally watch the four sentence clip, which literally ended with him dismissing the idea, and then still claim that he asked people to drink bleach. It was like the Mandela effect in real time
very few chemicals have only one effect when introduced into a system as complex as a living body.
That's why doctors prescribe drugs "off label" millions of times every year in the USA. The active ingredient in Rogaine was originally being studied as a way of reducing either migraines or heart disease (I can't remember for sure which), but the test subjects in the safety trials started growing body hair at extreme rates while using it internally; it got scrapped for its original purpose, but found a new life as a topical medicine to treat baldness.
One doesn't have to be a shill for any side to appreciate objective evidence and go wherever it leads. If the aftermath of a weapon strike is not consistent with the effect a particular weapon typically inflicts, then it is logical to dismiss the weapon (and it's user) as the culprit.
Basically, Israel's enemies were saying Israel was a swallow carrying a coconut.
"Wot? A swallow carrying a coconut??"
https://youtu.be/liIlW-ovx0Y?si=kq4J3S9Wtf7kyRw8
🙂
😉
The limits of "we just don't believe you" as a news-consuming habit
Except, unfortunately, "we just don't believe you" has proven a more effective news consumption strategy than the alternatives. Hell, it was a bunch of "we just don't believe you" guys who wound up putting lie to the original claim of Israeli culpability. I understand that this is hard to take as a journalist, but the media has squandered its credibility across-the-board over many many years. And, the Middle East? Cripes! It's worse than pulling teeth to get anything resembling an honest discussion out of either side of that issue.
You want people to have trust in our institutions? Have our institutions prove trustworthy. Or at least have them or their members face some consequence for duplicity.
I understand that this is hard to take as a journalist, but the media has squandered its credibility across-the-board over many many years.
^
Indeed. I gave up on the MSM twenty five years ago. Started watching Democracy Now, then on to Veterans Today and now several alternative news feeds.
Veterans Today was founded by Lt. Col David Hackworth who exposed much of the corruption and other nasty shit that went down during the Viet Nam war.
The MSM is dead to me. That includes PBS and NPR (possibly the worst).
"Have our institutions prove trustworthy. Or at least have them or their members face some consequence for duplicity."
A certain ex-POTUS here in the USA comes to mind. WHEN will He admit that He LOST His Erection? Twat, do we need to have Spermy Daniels release video to PROVE this beyond a doubt? In these days of deep AI fakes, I could forgive people for not even believing video, cum to think of shit!
Interesting choice to bring up.
Our intelligence establishment, our major media, academia and the national security state got caught promulgating an outright lie about that ex-POTUS. And yet, for some reason or other, you're shocked that his supporters don't have complete and total confidence that they're telling the truth that he lost the last election.
You accidentally proved my point.
I told ya so!!!!
The Sad Saga of the Stolen Erections
And lo, it came to pass, that Tim the Enchanter blew upon His Magic Flute, and led me to a secret cave (the Cave of Caerbannog), whereupon mystic runes carved into the very living rock foretold of a day to come.
This sad, sad day has now manifested itself, just as foretold. The Promised One had been delivered to us, and was to fertilize His Queen, Spermy-Stormy Daniels, in an amazing scene; a glaze of Vaseline. Their offspring were to be called Strumpets… Which is a concatenation of Stormy and Trump. They were to number in the millions… About 332 million; enough for all residents of the USA to be issued one Strumpet per each resident, to sit on his or her right shoulder, and make sure that each resident stayed WAAAY Righteous. Each Strumpet was to progressively exert more and more Righteousness Control over each resident, by covering them in Strumpet Vines.
Sad to say, the Bad Bider-Grunch stole Trumpsmas AND Trump’s Erections! The stolen erections prevented the birth of the 332 million Strumpets, in the world’s WORST mass murder (genocide) so far! Even Saint Babbitt could NOT save the Strumpets!
This is the Sad Tale of the Demise of the USA!
(THIS is why you need to donate NOW!)
https://www.thedailybeast.com/mypillow-guy-mike-lindell-punts-timeline-for-trump-retaking-power-as-august-conspiracy-theories-get-wackier
MyPillow Guy Punts Timeline for Trump Retaking Power as Conspiracy Theories Get Wackier
https://www.salon.com/2021/08/22/mike-lindell-still-in-trumps-good-graces-has-new-prediction-reinstatement-by-new-years/
The Lord Trump didn’t return to us as scheduled, but the Second Coming is now re-scheduled. You can TRUST us THIS time, for sure!
The Lord Trump DID return to us faithful ones, but He did it in an invisible way! Hold strong in your Faith in Him!
The Lord Trump didn’t return to us yet, this is true! It only did NOT happen because YOU were not faithful enough, and didn’t send Him enough donations!
The Lord Trump didn’t return to us yet, but He DID miraculously protect us all from the VERY worst forces of Evil, which is Der BidenFuhrer! Hold fast in your Faith… Lord Trump will come back VERY soon now! Especially if you send Him more money!
The Lord Trump moves in Mysterious Ways! All will be revealed SOON! Especially if you have Enough Faith to DONATE till it HURTS!
Steele Dossier Conclusion:
Mostly true.
But enough about Sam Harris.
Walter Duranty Conclusion:
We wish it was true, so we'll give it a pass.
https://www.cnn.com/factsfirst/politics/factcheck_6d25bd9d-c786-41d8-abb0-8c8d934f961f
CONCLUSION
The dossier was not the basis for the FBI's investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 election.
Twat all do the Lizard People have to say about all of this, anyway? Inquiring minds want to KNOW, dammit! What about the flat Earth?
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47279253
YouTube aids flat earth conspiracy theorists, research suggests
Well, I see you haven't stopped masturbating to your trump posters. When are you going to take the gerbil out of your ass? Are you waiting for richard to show up and remove it for you? It amazes me how many humans were fucked up mentally because he was elected. So what if he fucks anything that walks. Ol billy was pretty good at that game too. Maybe the focus should be on what gets accomplished during a presidency instead of reading national enquirer for your political news. But you keep on beating off to your secret hero, and maybe get your eyes checked Remember what your mother told you.
We really should have it put down.
Dudes kids met with Russians while he was one floor above, but sure nothing to see here.
While he has become a target of the shadow government, he is not innocent. None of the oligarchy or those in power are. They too would be targets if they step out of line.
The problem is that the MEDIA is not reliable and that partisan power by infiltration has been SHOWN to anyone with half a brain and an open mind.
When groups are seen doing things in counting rooms that even "suggest" illegal operations to overthrow an election then those persons need be REMOVED from the room. Instead they remove they and their bosses remove those brought in to impartially monitor.
Then there are the issues of unexplained statistical deviation. A candidate so far ahead that nearly 100% or more of mail in vote must be for the opponent to even be close...and the opponent wins when at no time in history has the ratio or Dem to Republican voters shown such a vote. Statistics actually tell us a LOT. A good mathematician can tell you how many times in the history and future the world over ten thousand years something like that MIGHT happen
I did have an event in my life that when analyzed could only happen one time in 10,000 years based on the current numbers and populations. Such things do happen, but, I should have had tickets to every lottery that day!
Besides, it is nearly impossible for a man that was a bigot, was not presidential material in any way, had not ever held any station that suggested that he was presidential material and then never even went to a debate could possibly win IF even 25% of Democrats had any intelligence. This is especially true when the facts were already available regarding the Bidens' criminal actions in Ukraine. Three officials there had already been imprisoned and there was testimony in Ukrainian courts as to the criminal acts of the Bidens in Ukraine.
No, in any world of any rational number of voters who are cognizant at all, then Biden could not have been elected. Remember it only takes less than 1% of the vote nationwide to make a difference in WHO whole the Oval Office and that one percent is easily manipulated.
News Guard stated that they wouldn't use the misfire on the Gaza story in its ratings. Showing how it is all dishonesty and group think.
You can't make this stuff up.
If the "reliable" outlets are publishing lies, well just ignore those lies. Because publishing lies has nothing to do with reliability (oddly, that's probably true; the outlets in question are politically reliable.)
Pro-Tip: If you want to get closer to actual, objective truth, you might not want to take the side that renounced it's predominance in Math and Science because Imam Hamid Al-Ghazali proclaimed that mastery of numbers was the work of The Devil, as pointed out by Astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson:
Neil DeGrasse Tyson: The Decline of Islam
https://youtu.be/_BJW2lX4TPA?si=xfySWA684qBCRfTq
And for forensic expertise on weapons and their effects and who has these weapons, you might not want to trust a media complex that is anti-gun and anti-Right to Keep and Bear Arms on top of being Anti-Israel.
Neil Degrasse Tyson is the exemplar that cements this saying: “A little learning is a dangerous thing”. He has history wrong. Here is the proper context from Hamid Al-Ghazali’s teachings:
“When one reads Imam al-Ghazali’s works at a very superficial level, one can easily misunderstand what he is saying as anti-scientific in general. The truth, however, is that al-Ghazali’s only warning to students is to not fully accept all the beliefs and ideas of a scholar simply because of his achievements in mathematics and science. By issuing such a warning, al-Ghazali is in fact protecting the scientific enterprise for future generations by insulating it from being mixed with theoretical philosophy that could eventually dilute science itself to a field based on conjecture and reasoning alone.”
Tyson exactly fell for this trap. His philosophical, religious, and metaphysical foundation of scientism has led him to accept anti-scientific nonsense such as transgenderism. It’s this stuff that explains Republicans’ position of not rejecting science per se, but rather rejecting The Science™, the community that wants to paint a sociopolitical narrative under the guise of scientific thought.
And where does that quote come from and why should we believe it? And what is this "trap" of which you speak?
Most important, if Al-Ghazali's teachings are not the explanation for mathematical, scientific, and just plain literal illiteracy in the Islamic world, then what the Hell does explain it?
"the media has squandered its credibility across-the-board over many many years. "
https://twitter.com/GallupNews/status/1715060170416431467
It's almost as low as approval of Congress.
Welch's real problem goes unstated lest reality be acknowledged.
We are well beyond "we dont believe you" and fully into "we see what you are doing" territory.
It is the very same game we have seen at this very site for years now. They pick and choose which sources they privilege and which they aggresdively cross examine.
They pick and choose which sources they privilege and which they aggresdively [sic] cross examine.
If we were all really smart, we would not privilege any source and aggressively cross examine the sources we like and tend to agree with the most.
Everyone is already highly motivated to be skeptical of media outlets, other institutions, and public figures that we disagree with.* They will not fool us into believing something provably false. It is the sources on "our side" that can fool us, because we tend to turn off our skepticism and critical thinking when we hear things that we like or want to believe. When you really think about it, that is us fooling ourselves.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
*This reflexive skepticism can be taken way too far, though, which is the point of this article.)
I for one am shocked that a bunch of pissed off people around the Middle East would lay the blame on the people they hate instead of the freedom fighters who routinely use them as human shields and accidentally blow up on a semi regular basis.
Agreed! In spades!
Subtitle "we just don't believe you" from the article... People believe what they WANT to believe, all around the round world, and all around the 4 or more corners of the FLAT world ass well! In our non-judgmental world, the world is whatever you believe that it is!
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47279253
YouTube aids flat earth conspiracy theorists, research suggests
Butt here in the USA, we are all MUCH better than all of that, right?
https://www.factcheck.org/2022/01/jan-6-conspiracy-theory-centers-on-baseless-claim-about-ray-epps/
Jan. 6 Conspiracy Theory Centers on Baseless Claim About Ray Epps
"factcheck.org"
Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Unwanted facts are boring and cause snoring! Lies that we WANT to hear?!?! Now THOSE are DELICIOUS!!!
That's the part that I find interesting. We know Hamas is using buggy weapons. We know they regularly hit their own people. We know that they operate militarily from schools and hospitals thus making them justified military targets. On top of all this, we know Palestinians constantly lie and produce unbelievable propaganda.
Considering all of these things, a journalist or decently informed person should have known this story didn't pass the smell test. They should be aware of the proof that was presented almost immediately afterward that countered the story. If not, then they are propagandists not journalists. If Reason was better about reporting with this basic level of informed skepticism ans honesty then we wouldn't be constantly slamming them in the comments
Skepticism about the government is tantamount to believing in conspiracy theories though.
A lot of media REALLY hate Israel.
On the other hand, a lot of media would happily sacrifice the US and Americans to benefit Israel in any way.
"The Arab public puts the attack squarely on Israel."
Well, Donnie and Kelly did maintain that there are "alternate facts" that while not true are used to spread fake news to supporters on social media.
Dan Rather said "Fake but accurate" first, so that makes spreading lies ok.
That was back when conservatives needed a military hero for President and Dubya was on a drunken AWOL binge from the Alabama National Guard instead. Those were good times.
Today conservatives just go straight for the lying draft-dodging reality TV bum.
You're missing the point. Dan Rather, a committed leftist, made stuff up. That means that when Team Trump makes stuff up it's ok. They just have to cite someone else doing it first. It's like the opposite of qualified immunity.
I got the point. I was just reminiscing about old-school conservatives who defended Dubya and his War on Terror.
Now Dubya has been outcast from Conservative World.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a TDS-addled lying pile of lefty shit.
I never liked the guy. Show me a compassionate conservative and I'll show you a big government liberal who opposes abortion.
Compassionate Conservative, at least as far as politicians go, is just a different way to say Progressive. Change my mind.
The difference is abortion.
All of this coming from the guy who was trying to advertise for George Will book on tapes and lamenting the old GOP is hilarious.
And he and his neocon ilk have been fully embraced by your side of the aisle. Strange, right?
Except as was shown, repeatedly I might add, Trump wasn’t the one making stuff up, the media and deep state (or whatever you want to call the entrenched bureaucracy/MIC) were the ones peddling lies and misinformation.
(Note, I’m not saying he never lied, just saying that a lot of the “alternative facts” were actual facts and what the media was pushing was the narrative lie.)
There was plenty of bull to go around. Which makes it hard. With both sides spinning yarns, how do you decide what to believe?
You may want to set your strawman generator to low. You'll run out before you can make your next beer run.
The Shrub was also Texas ANG. Gotta defend those county club golf courses from terrists.
"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, won't get fooled again."
In reality Bush was a much president as Biden. which meant nearly zero. In Bush's case it was Chaney .
Chaney in conjunction with the deepstate MIC
It is my opinion that no politician is capable of herding those cats. They are like the parent who occassionally let the child hold the steering wheel. See daddy… I’m driving!
(and that especially includes Obama)
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Funny you mention that Kiddie Raper, your senile master Biden is a draft dodger. Did you know that? Probably not. You’re a stupid, empty headed pedophile who is such a weak piece of shit that you worship filth like George Soros.
It's much better to believe in truth over facts, isn't it?
turd, the TDS-addled ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
The US government and the Israeli government (but I repeat myself) aren't any more credible than Hamas. Less credible, really, because the US government has told lies that dramatically impacted my life for the worse many, many, _many_ times while none of Hamas's lies ever affected me.
The real reason to believe that Israel didn't do it is that if they wanted to destroy the hospital, they wouldn't have stopped after a near miss. They'd have kept hitting it until it was gone.
+1
Indeed.
+2
The reason I believe is because I saw photographs of the aftermath. Not even the leaves from the palm trees planted next to the car lot were damaged. 500 dead? Clearly not.
You'd also have to believe Israel miraculously timed the bombing to coincide perfectly with a misfired Hamas rocket in an area where they weren't bombing at the moment.
I dont know for sure what's true or not about anything that is reported but the one thing i'm sure of is that the jOuRnALisTs are lying to me.
They seem to be accurately reporting what Netanyahu and Biden are telling them. But go ahead, shoot the messenger.
Wouldn't be a result of 'the messenger' often lying to promote a narrative, right?
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
lol spoken like a true NPC
NPC 123, Baby you and me!
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
“Spouting nonsense is an end in itself.”
Including Reason
Matt, why act like there's reasonable doubt about what happened, at this point? It was a failed launch from Palestine.
The remaining counter-theory, that it was an Israeli intercept, is profoundly ignorant. There's no weapon system out there that can intercept within seconds of launch.
There's no "if" needed, "Gazans fired the rocket, lied about it, and wildly exaggerated the death toll".
So the overwhelming majority of people in the Middle East believe just what they damned well want to.
Great, now do the NYT who, just this morning is still equivocating on this, and offers a plethora of alternate theories as to why it “could” have been Israel’s responsibility.
We have tribes, and no amount of objective information is going to do anything to affect their beliefs.
Just like the majority of the American people, most of whom believe everything the government along with the MSM tells them to believe.
They conflate that with good citizenry, and believe you should as well.
Or, rather, there's a minority of the American people, who believe everything Trump tells them to believe.
Most of the MSM have, in fact, reversed themselves on the hospital "blast" story, which somewhat perforates your theory that the MSM and the government march in lock-step to mislead the majority of the American people.
But you go on, believe what you are told to believe--I'm not going to change your mind!
Most of the MSM have, in fact, reversed themselves on the hospital “blast” story, which somewhat perforates your theory that the MSM and the government march in lock-step to mislead the majority of the American people.
No. The MSM is downplaying their mistake of the incident and is spinning things to damage control the mistake they made. They refuse to take accountability for what they've done.
"...Or, rather, there’s a minority of the American people, who believe everything Trump tells them to believe..."
There are a minority of TDS-addled shit=piles who believe this, TDS-addled pile of shit.
Maybe we'll get lucky and an errant missile will hit the NYT building.
Right, and to be perfectly honest, if Israel had hit the hospital, either purposefully or mistakenly, we would expect them to lie about it. That's why you don't immediately conclude something-the Palestinian Authority has zero incentive to be honest, and there's tons of incentive for Israel to deny it as well. Instead, wait on the evidence and look at the facts, as best as you can, and determine how credible the facts are.
Or, heck, you could just be Rashia Tlaib and have an emotional response based totally on what furthers your narrative.
And that goes double for when Hamas says it.
So now, after a couple days after the fact, the explosion occurred outside the hospital in a parking lot and the number of casualties is now in question. The main stream media played it up as per orders from the Tribe and they willingly obeyed as the MSM is filled with members anyway.
" There are two things I live by, number one, I don't believe anything the government says and number two I don't take very seriously anything the main stream media says." George Carlin.
Truth is the first casualty in war and it continues to be a casualty.
I AM Making a Good Salary from Home $6580-$7065/week , which is amazing, under a year ago I was jobless in a horrible economy. I thank God every day I was blessed with these instructions and now it’s my duty to pay it forward and share it with Everyone. go to home media tech tab for more detail reinforce your heart
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Even assuming that the Gaza hospital was hit mistakenly by a Palestinian rocket, publics on both sides are so polarized today that no one is really interested in the truth. In other words, Israel has caused enough victims, and committed enough war crimes (as has Hamas) in its current military campaign, that many people both in the region and internationally have limited patience for permitting an open-ended invasion of Gaza that causes more carnage among the civilian population.
Keep in mind in this same article, you've pointed out that a strong majority of Jordanians think the mere EXISTENCE of Israel is one of the greatest threats to peace. Not any individual actual, just the fact that Israel is there. They want the state destroyed.
They are pre-disposed to hate Israel and frame everything in an Anti-Israel viewpoint. Israel doesn't have a right to exist, they're an illegal occupying force. They're the sole reason Palestine doesn't have complete autonomy. Their big answer to restore peace to the region is the dissolution of the state of Israel and the creation of more Jewish settlement camps. Perhaps there's no real upside in Israel ever attempting to cater to them or to please them?
Ultimately, what is Israel supposed to do? Become tolerant and accepting of a hostile military force on their border that constantly fires rockets at their cities and occasionally sneaks over the border to take hostages and murder people at a concert?
"Ultimately, what is Israel supposed to do? "
Iron out a political settlement. I'll get the ball rolling. A one state solution incorporating all the territory in question under a secular state that doesn't favor one ethnicity or religion over another. Of course if Israel prefers endless conflict and chaos, the Palestinians are more than willing to accommodate.
Yes I think that is the only long term possibility. Of course how long before this new Nirvana turns into a Jewish nightmare? What do you name this place for starters? I see more death just over that topic. Are you aware that the Jewish state was intended to ensure Jews can protect themselves? Knowing the history of Jews? Face it, Jews will have to leave en masse and the idiots left behind will turn productive Israel into an Islamic shithole. But I suspect you know that.
I think you are giving him to much credit to suspect he knows that or much of anything. More likely just enjoys a simplistic view of the world from which he can pontificate without doing any heavy lifting [like reading a book].
It's as though the Israeli Palestinian conflict is nothing more than a squabble over real estate, and reasonable people can just sit down and hammer out a price [or "A one state solution incorporating all the territory in question under a secular state that doesn’t favor one ethnicity or religion over another"].
"More likely just enjoys a simplistic view of the world from which he can pontificate without doing any heavy lifting [like reading a book]."
A Jewish carpenter once said, 'Love your neighbor.' Can't get much simpler than that.
And that Jewish carpenter never existed and the words attributed to him were nothing that wasn't previously said elsewhere.
Nope, Jesus definitely existed. The question of his divinity, and subsequent travels through time and space after his regeneration are open to debate.
Got any personal artifacts of Jesus, personal writings of Jesus, a building built by Jesus, court records of his borth, trial, and execution, non-Biblical records contemporary to Jesus that speak of Jesus himself and not merely his followers, and non-Biblical records of the dead rising and walking among the living when Jesus was supposed to have died?
I’ll wait.
🙂
Correction: "Birth," not "borth." The word 'borth" sounds like broth for the dyslexic, with jumbled alphabet pasta to match.
😉
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" - Matthew 16:26
That's OK. I have a mind instead of a soul.
🙂
😉
"What do you name this place for starters? "
Israel is fine with me. It's got a nice old testament ring to it. Though a rebranding might be in the cards.
"Are you aware that the Jewish state was intended to ensure Jews can protect themselves?"
Well, back to the drawing board it seems. Couple thousand killed on Israeli soil, US aircraft carriers off the coast. Allowing Palestinian militants to come in, do their worst, and then call on Uncle Sam for help. That's not what I call protecting themselves.
"...Allowing Palestinian militants to come in, do their worst, and then call on Uncle Sam for help. That’s not what I call protecting themselves."
trueman again spouts nonsense and he's a pro at it.
>>secular state that doesn’t favor one ethnicity or religion over another.
lol if Islam is at the table this can never be.
"lol if Islam is at the table this can never be."
Are Hindus any better? Maybe the Jews can persuade them to act as proxies. If not there's always Buddhists, Animists and so on. We're spoiled for choice, really.
I'm sure, in your damaged mind, this was seen as clever repartee', rahter than the bullshit it is.
Polytheists such as Hindus and Nontheists such as Buddhists are targets for instant extermination according to the laws of Jihad, Dummy!
Hindus are infinitely bette than Muslims. Hindus aren’t actively planning to murder everyone like me because we’re infidels.
Muslims will never accept a secular state. Turkey serves as the example of why it fails.
"Muslims will never accept a secular state. "
Never is a long time. The Kurds are probably the Muslims most amenable to Enlightenment ideas, even giving present day America a run for its money. Of course the West has seen to it that the Kurds were never given the chance to accept a state, secular or not.
About how many Kurds are in Gaza?
About how many Kurds are in Gaza?
More than there are American reporters.
There are Muslims outside Gaza. I think the Kurds would accept a secular state if the offer were on the table. Whether the Palestinians would accept a secular one state solution is another question. At the moment, probably not. The beauty of my suggestion is is that nobody wants it. It's obviously the ultimate compromise that will eventually see grudging acceptance.
The Kurds are anti-Israel, and also helped the Islamic Ottoman Turk Empire in the Armenian Genocide.
You sure know how to pick 'em, don't you, Dummy?
"The Kurds are anti-Israel,"
Surely that's a given. Why would a people sympathetic to the ideals of the Enlightenment favor a state devoted to the interests of one group of citizens over another?
Let me guess you have one of those "coexist" stickers on your Subaru?
Live together or die together. Not a tough choice.
"Live together or die together. Not a tough choice."
Platitudes - so my suspicions were correct...
The Israelis and the Palestinians have chosen "die together," now what?
Invest in Lockeed Martin.
Fuck off and die.
Or….. just you die.
Along with a save the whales, free tibet, a clinton sticker, iI love my dog, and countless others clogging up the view.
""Of course if Israel prefers endless conflict and chaos, the Palestinians are more than willing to accommodate.""
I was told the Palestinian people are peaceful and it's Hamas causing the problems. If Palestinians wish to engage in combat, they are targets themselves.
How do the Israelis "incorporate" people who are explicitly dedicated to their destruction?
Very carefully.
Do you have a serious answer?
That is serious. A reckless and carelessly implemented settlement is not to anyone's advantage.
mtrueman is not a serious person. You need to understand that if you engage with him. His shtick is to peddle nonsense and get people to respond to it.
"mtrueman is not a serious person..."
Correct.
He's what his mommy calls "clever" and what those of us reading his sophistry call "a slimy piece of shit".
I’ll get the ball rolling.
Ok. Here's a one-state solution that still favors ethnicity and religion. All Palestinians are offered the chance to convert to Judaism. Once the rabbis or whoever decide that that they have done so, then they will be assigned to one or two of the ten lost tribes. An honorary assignment. Maybe temporarily if one of those tribes is discovered on Mars. Those folks can make aliyah to Israel. I'm sure HaShem won't mind.
Leviticus 25:10 will then come into effect. And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.. With particular emphasis on the meaning/implementation of Strongs 272 and Strongs 3427
יָשַׁב and אֲחֻזָּה
"Here’s a one-state solution that still favors ethnicity and religion. "
I've got a better one, inspired by Ben Kingsley in that Gandhi movie. Ship all the babies in Israel to Palestine and vice versa. Then have the Jewish parents raise their newly adopted babies as Muslims (or Christians) and Muslim (or Christian) parents raise their babies as Jews. A tough sell, granted, but nothing beats it for dramatic potential. Best picture, director, actor, screenplay, art direction, editing, costume and so on.
A tough sell, granted,
Yeah. Cultural genocide is tough to sell. Which is one reason why it's a crappy idea.
OK, OK, script re-write: everyone raises their own kids in their own religion. Less genocidal, but I'm telling you it's box office poison.
Except that Jews don't proselytize and Palestinian Muslims and Christians do and the latter two would rather make a counter-offer to the Jews.
Maybe if they all woke up (in the actual sense, not the modern usage) and stopped believing in dangerous nonsense, all the conflicts could be solved by a simple title search and everybody could lay down their arms and live as at least peaceful neighbors, if not friends.
Joe Stalin would like to have a word with you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_(1928%E2%80%931941)
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310335094/reasonmagazinea-20/
Don't be mistaken again. Lose your anti-Semitic ideals of apostate assimilation.
No he wouldn't like a word with me because I don't like Marxism either.
And for your information, some of the greatest Secular and Atheist minds were Jews, Dummy!
I agree Jews in diaspora don’t proselytize. And that makes sense under that circumstance.
But Israelis aren’t in diaspora. Differing people were always on that land. A religion that is heavily law/legal oriented. Israelis now have to govern themselves/others while ‘home’ in a world that is very different from the previous non-diaspora periods. One of those – Hasmoneans – large scale conversions of Itureans and Idomeneans(?) were very likely.
This is not a difficult problem. Really. Israel (meaning - including Palestinians) is one of the less diverse countries. Far less so than the US or South Africa or Brazil. Though more than France or Israel’s neighbors.
Perhaps you could explain to me what difference it would make if there was a secular state as opposed to the status quo? Muslims are allowed to openly practice in Israel, they have access to their own religious sites, they have authority over their own marriage rites.
Why would proclaiming the creation of a secular state suddenly create peace for the Muslims who want a Sharia Muslim state to rule Jerusalem? It doesn’t seem likely to make any significant change.
"Perhaps you could explain to me what difference it would make if there was a secular state as opposed to the status quo? "
The status quo has the entire region dotted with squalid Palestinian refugee camps. A secular state which doesn't favor the Jews over the Arabs would welcome the return of these refugees and presumably anyone else with a hankering for the holy land.
"Why would proclaiming the creation of a secular state suddenly create peace for the Muslims who want a Sharia Muslim state to rule Jerusalem? "
I doubt there's anything sudden about it. It'll happen when it happens. No need to rush, and for god's sake, do it carefully.
As for the Sharia state for the Muslims, why not give it to them if it'll make them happy. The Catholics got their state - we call it the Vatican. In cramped Israel, something smaller might be more suitable. I have a shed in my garden I'd be happy to donate.
"The status quo has the entire region dotted with squalid Palestinian refugee camps. A secular state which doesn’t favor the Jews over the Arabs would welcome the return of these refugees and presumably anyone else with a hankering for the holy land..."
Asshole here proposes a pony.
A secular state which doesn’t favor the Jews over the Arabs would welcome the return of these refugees and presumably anyone else with a hankering for the holy land.
A secular state is precisely what led to where we are here. Zionism was a secular idea. A secular response to the secular European notions of nationalism that excluded Jews from being included. Rather than replacing ethnonationalism (which still exists in many European countries - even as a 'right of return') with a more inclusive nationalism, it simply became a different basis for exclusive nationalism.
I'm sure if I'm wrong someone will point it out - but afaik religious Zionism came quite a bit later. With the exception of Christian Zionism - which long preceded Jewish Zionism and used to be called 'restorationism' - and is hateful and views Jews as merely the signal for Jesus to return and start the rapture.
This entire discussion is simply a way to deny the reality of the present. To keep the fucking fights going as a way of pretending that the problems are insoluble. 'Secular' is NOT 'tolerant' or 'inclusive'.
Point taken. My emphasis is a state which doesn't advantage one ethnicity (or religion) over another. Jewishness has always been tricky given its dual nature of religion and nation.
I understand there are extremely religious Jews who reject the legitimacy of the Israeli state, so there's that.
I suggest giving both sides weapons and stand back and watch them exterimnate each other. It could be streamed live, pay per view, and satellite. REAL reality show.
Muslims are allowed to openly practice in Israel
But they have no right to self-determination. The Basic Law (roughly constitution level law) of Israel
The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
If two words were replaced -
IsraelMississippi andJewishwhite - one might imagine where this could lead. Even if that is not where it will lead, the purpose of that basic law is to ensure that basic 'consent of the governed' stuff applies only to some. All else is depending on the kindness of strangers."...If two words were replaced – Israel Mississippi and Jewish white – one might imagine where this could lead..."
And this asshole either is too stupid to understand "false equivalence" or hopes we are.
The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
Jfree: "I have no clue this actually means that nobody is allowed to vote to turn Israel into a Muslim Theocracy, but I'm sure going to bang on about it despite my raging ignorance on the topic."
““I have no clue this actually means that nobody is allowed to vote to turn Israel into a Muslim Theocracy,”
It means Israel would finally be surrounded by friends instead of enemies. Friends with shitloads of oil and other goodies – palm trees, camels and sand. Also lots of American oil execs with ready to sign contracts for everything that keeps the world’s economy humming.
“Friends with shitloads of oil…..”
Well, that’s a retarded idea you got there m, but I must admit that the thought of those “just stop oil” idiots throwing their tantrums in the Middle East, instead of the coddling western countries does bring a smile to my face.
I'm sure Palestinians would be open to a one-state solution as long as *they* were in charge. Life expectancy for Jews would then severely plummet, so I don't see what incentive Jews would have to surrender.
Another Zionist fever dream. Thanks for sharing.
Look up the meaning of the word 'solution' when you're fully awake.
Tell us what this miraculous and final “solution” is for Israel.
There's plenty land to go around for everyone. Water is the key. As the Sons of the Pioneers sang,
All day I've faced the bar - ren waste
With out the taste of wa-ter... cool, wa-ter.
Ole Dan and I, with throats burned dry,
And souls that cry
For wa-ter... cool, clear wa-ter.
"many people both in the region and internationally have limited patience for permitting"
And what the fuck business is it of our or the "international community"?
They can sort out their own disagreements.
Of course, lies about Jews are treated as the truth. Lies have become the new truth. https://bit.ly/3M80dPJ October 19, 2023, CityWatch, How Can We Know Which End Is up, When We Are Drowning in Lies?, by Richard Lee Abrams
It's a grim situation indeed if "no one is really interested in the truth." Which is why we need to insist on it—from our news organizations, from our governments, from ourselves.
There is NOTHING in the US media right now that is 'interested in truth'. Including you Mr Welch.
The hospital story is a small part - one event - in a larger story of war and bloodshed that has been going on for the last two weeks now. From the attack by Hamas on Israelis to the airstrikes by Israel on Gazans. 'Truth' is more about the general narrative of what is happening than it is about single emotion-inducing events (beheaded babies, hospital bombs) within a fog of war and events that move faster than news cycles.
You can see the arguments about 'truth' with what is now an argument on wiki about what to call the thing - it is currently (or was) Israel-Hamas War. And is now Gaza-Israel Conflict. And maybe something else in future.
Any 'truth' about a war has to start with who is fighting who. Two weeks ago, Hamas and Israel look like the combatants. After two weeks of pretty indiscriminate aerial bombing (the casualty run rate looks higher than the run rate of the WW2 Blitz) with no evidence that Hamas is anything but an incidental target?
Well maybe the 'truth' has changed. Any truth about a micro-event (eg the hospital bomb) has to be put into the context of the larger truth/narrative (eg is that part of a war or a collective punishment that is illegal under the laws of war).
Neither Hamas nor the IDF are originators of anything other than claims to serve their purposes. Not truth. Their claims may not be lies (not deliberate) but they will never be about truth. In this hospital bomb event, the PURPOSE of the IDF investigation and evidence release is to undermine any shift towards a narrative that might tilt towards a 'truth' that civilian casualties are more 'collective punishment' than 'collateral damage of war'. It's PR not truth seeking.
That is also the ENTIRETY of what the US is doing now as well - media organizations, pressure on anyone to repeat that particular PR, etc. We are no longer a third party. Our role is to SUPPRESS info.
Al Jazeera can investigate that same event. After all - unlike all the pajama-wearing journalists of the US stroking their sources, they're there and their video was even introduced as evidence. Excellent use of all those homophones in one sentence if I do say so myself. Anyway - their investigation of event-truth is not suppressive and it is certainly not intended to bolster a 'legitimate war' v 'collective punishment' narrative. And it's far more transparent than any US media sourcing.
Part of the world wants to view truth as merely a PR ploy - well the US media is now in that camp. A large part of the world views truth as a PR ploy - just vice versa. Once upon a time, in a world long dead, 'the media' used to pride itself on being independent of the PR ploy. Not neutral but independent. Surprisingly Al Jazeera may be that for this conflict. It's certainly better than the US media.
“Two weeks ago, Hamas and Israel look like the combatants. After two weeks of pretty indiscriminate aerial bombing (the casualty run rate looks higher than the run rate of the WW2 Blitz) with no evidence that Hamas is anything but an incidental target?”
Since Hamas hides among the population of Gaza, how exactly does Israel target them better?
Does the population of Gaza largely support, house, clothe, feed, and hide Hamas? If so, would that make them a legitimate target?
Since Hamas hides among the population of Gaza, how exactly does Israel target them better?
Not my war. And certainly not my place to create what would become an acceptable excuse for someone else to kill civilians in my name (and on my dime). Israel knows what the laws of war are and would be held accountable for that responsibility if the US stopped protecting them – unquestioningly – re ANY accountability for that. The US is incentivizing murderous behavior.
Edward Luttwak has a good idea – Focus on the tunnels Can’t be taken from the air. Not at all civilian. The entirety of any military infrastructure.
Here’s an example of where our attempts to cover up the morphing of ‘war’ into ‘collective punishment’ lead.
According to Al-Quds Hospital in Gaza, Israel is demanding the ‘immediate evacuation’ of the hospital. That is complete fucking evil. WE – the US – have created the enabling of this shit.
There isn't even any coverage over the last week of the FACT that Egypt warned Netanyahu that 'something big' might be imminent. He ignored that - and we are helping cover that up.
"Not my war."
In which case, STFU.
"Focus on tunnels"
Battle of Mosul (2016–2017)
Population, some 2,000,000, smaller than Gaza. The battle lasted over 9 months. Up to 5,000 ISIL combatants pitted against some 100,000 from Iraqi militias and military, Peshmerga, Hezbollah, NATO, and Iran's Revolutionary Guard. The city was pounded into rubble and the fighting took place almost entirely in the elaborate system of tunnels.
According to wiki, the civilian deaths/injuries from that Mosul op were 6,000/17,000 over 9 months. We'll be at that number in a week - 3 weeks total - with the current 'strategy'. With ZERO tunnels taken and damn near zero targeting of Hamas. Obviously nowhere near 5,000 -25,000 militants/fighters (those are the wiki range for ISIS in Mosul) killed if that is the mission.
I understand bombing the shit out a place from the air is EASY. Hell it makes for great TV. Get the popcorn out. Doesn't cost a thing as long as only one side has the air power and the US has an unlimited missile/munitions money tree. Also doesn't accomplish anything.
Hamas needs to be eliminated.
Amazing that so called libertarians can excuse its very non-libertarian nature.
Well
a) they won't be eliminated.
b) they sure as hell won't be eliminated via aerial strikes
The latter will mostly kill civilians who didn't have a damn thing to do with the Hamas attacks.
It's akin to going after someone who attacked you by killing everyone at the supermarket.
""is if there is an independent international inquiry into the tragedy that has happened with impeccable evidence that it was not Israel."
You don't have impeccable evidence it was Israel. Biased people don't change their minds.
"Two weeks ago, Hamas and Israel look like the combatants. After two weeks of pretty indiscriminate aerial bombing (the casualty run rate looks higher than the run rate of the WW2 Blitz) with no evidence that Hamas is anything but an incidental target?"
Since Hamas hides among the population of Gaza, how exactly does Israel target them better?
Does the population of Gaza largely support, house, clothe, feed, and hide Hamas? If so, would that make them a legitimate target?
this was intended as a reply to jfree's gibberish above.
See above
Provide a cite or STFU, asshole.
If Israel fired the rocket that hit the hospital,
No rocket hit the hospital you ignorant ass.
How can we expect honesty from the legacy media when the alternate media, who claim to be keeping them on their toes, is too busy vomiting up the garbage they sucked up along with them.
Nothing hit the hospital except the explosion and fire from an air burst, possibly hyperbaric, JDAM guided munition fired from an Israeli F-16.
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
Most anti-Semites are.
https://twitter.com/FromKulak/status/1715456989642293314?t=9RwAgbFl1LHY1TqZFssjKg&s=19
The same time they want your kids to die for the ethnic interests of Israelis and West Ukrainians they’re using state backed criminality to ethnically cleanse Americans
Do not enlist, resist a draft, and all other attempts to make you pay for an empire that wants you dead.
[Link]
https://twitter.com/Indian_Bronson/status/1715455757624254751?t=ciF8qycYvBOQDEdWJ3LEQQ&s=19
Who is more delusional?
The ADL claiming "White supremacists" are the ones who 'rail against Israel and the Jewish community, gathering in cities nationwide to promote their racist, antisemitic propaganda'?
Or right wingers saying "Let's take their side, so they'll take ours!"
[Link]
https://twitter.com/peterbakernyt/status/1715391374579605834?t=p7oIso0YZfMCo1MUh0zYzg&s=19
Some senior Israeli officials told the Americans during meetings over recent days to expect a war that could last as long as 10 years, @sbg1 reports.
[Link]
https://twitter.com/western_bester/status/1715446144992477359?t=5QWfblvUF4RcYYhMAX25uQ&s=19
I don't think Jews really grasp how their multigenerational push for anti-white DEI has fundamentally broken society and created de-civilization. Your golem has turned on you.
[Link]
Now that might be, if you mean Hollywood Jews.
Once and for all, it was an Israeli launched JDAM-enabled air burst (possibly hyperbaric) munition. Hamas does not have this type of weapon and analyses have proven that it couldn't have been launched or misfired by them to begin with.
It was a GPS guided (hence JDAM) thermobaric/air burst munition with either a proximity "fuse" or "trigger" and designed to do the following:
1) Arrive to a high degree of accuracy and explode in the air in relatively close proximity to its target.
2) Send out a shockwave which initially blows out windows, spreads fire and shrapnel, and then - by virtue of the explosion consuming all the oxygen (as fires do) - sucks the air out of the area surrounding the explosion.
3) This has a dual effect of first killing and damaging as much life and property as possible, and second causing anyone not killed by the blast to be suffocated in an oven-like environment of incredibly high temperature.
As an added "benefit" no large crater(s) are usually formed, steel reinforced concrete buildings are not knocked down, and no evidence of a standard munition is left behind to use in war crimes prosecutions (lol, that last part is dark satire). Perfect for villages comprised of mud and adobe huts or poorly constructed housing due to lack of adequate building supplies (as the result of, I dunno, a near total embargo?), such as one might find in....Iraq, Afghanistan, Occupied Palestine.
I think you are full of something. However, if Israel targeted the hospital, it certainly wasn't to kill a bunch of invalid patents. There is no service to their cause from this; therefore, they didn't do it. IF Israel did target a hospital, there was something else in there.
Who cares? Gaza is a terrorist infested slum. Get rid of it.
You’re not very bright. The hospital (and other hospitals) was targeted because there was a large encampment of homeless Palestinians (incl. ALLEGED Hamas members) in the parking lot and surrounding area. The hospital had been warned several times by phone and via “roof knocker” less-than-lethal munitions in the days prior to evacuate “or else.”
You have literally no competing data or information to refute my points. The video evidence is also clear. Listen to the sound the munition makes. US Army combat engineers and other experts have analyzed it and said it was for sure a US-supplied M83/84 JDAM-enabled munition.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/19/what-hit-ahli-hospital-in-gaza
But you’re also a vile racist POS, probably an honest to God Nazi.
"Who cares? Gaza is a terrorist infested slum. Get rid of it."
Are you volunteering to go over and help out, or are you just another Hasbarat keyboard commando member of the Internet Warriors Brigade?
You’re probably right.
The hospital, was in fact, hit by a Hamas errant rocket.
If you look around the area using Google earth, you’ll see some incubators, taken by Saddam’s forces from Kuwait, when they threw babies on the floor. The launch site is north of this.
If you pan around you’ll see a sea can that’s half empty. This is where Gadhafi kept his Viagra supply that he was giving to his troops for gang raping civilians. It’s east of this.
The next reference is hard to find. It’s 2 crates on a hill that Saddam kept little vials of anthrax and ricin in. You know, the same ones Colin Powell was showing to the UN and which Saddam had sent over to the Democrats about to vote “NO” on the PATRIOT Act. It’s south of this.
If you keep looking, you’ll see 2 pipes filled with Sarin. These are the same pipes Assad used on civilians, not the rebels. THE REBELS DIDN’T DO THIS, ASSAD DID!! ASSAD IS A VERY VERY BAD MAN!! It’s a little west of this.
If you look in the center, you’ll see some equipment with Russian markings. This is storage for the equipment Putin used to blow up his own pipeline, NS2 and his novichok stockpile.
It’s right beside this where the Hamas rocket was launched from. Case closed. Hamas guilty.
Anonymous sockpuppets can be relied on to understand and not lie about advanced weapons engineering. There are enough credulous Trumpanzees here to believe anything sockpuppets or media manipulators care to aver about places whose languages none of them can say "howdy" in.
You'd be mistaken. Those "Trumpanzees" actually investigated the evidence and found the U.S. and IDF's account credible.
Let go of your antisemitism.
Not just Trumpanzees, but Biden and his supporters also find the US and IDF statements totally credible.
Good then the xx% majority of Jordanians should be happy to receive the refuges from Gaza that don't want to become (or aren't wanted) Israelis, when the blight is removed, and Israel takes over and turns it into another oasis.
Just like NYC and other "sanctuary cities" and the border busters.
I disbelieved the initial reports. The "corrective" reports coming in their train, replete with "evidence," do not much tempt me to accept them, either. I JUST DON'T BELIEVE any of it.
Funny then, that Hamas has never before and hasn't since used any munitions that can explode in the air like that or sound like US-made JDAM enabled bombs - with their unique "whistling" noise.
You’re likely right. How do we de-Escalate this situation?
Are you intentionally parroting the sub-head of the article?
This happened to be one incident, for which there happened to be some evidence. There will be more incidents and there will be hundreds of lies accompanying them. This is a war and the truth is always the first victim. This whole thing since 1948 won't truly end until one side or the other is completely crushed and recognizes it.
Why do you think that? Crushing is not a good strategy.
Worked on Carthage.
Gaza Delenda Est.
Yeah, the Germans and Japanese have really been a thorn in our side ever since we crushed them into unconditional surrender. What a poor strategy; we should have offered a ceasefire in late December 1941 followed by negotiations for a compromise peace.
Waitaminnit! Suppose the mohammedans find out there never was a Jesus or God and abandon superstitious warfare? Or suppose they convert to Judaism? Or suppose "both sides" reject superstitious credulity and the initiation of force it engenders? What then?
“What then?”
I dunno, hank. Maybe the comstockian girl bulliers and their spoiler votes will unite with gods own prohibitionists to seek out the trumpanzees in their midst and forge a peace treaty leading to 50 years of a looter kleptocracy dedicated to a Christian theology that enslaves women….. or something.
Get working on that, buddy.
I didn't do it. Nobody can place me at the scene, and I'm not changing my story.
"The Arab public puts the attack squarely on Israel."
Well yeah. They're Jew-hating retards, so of course they do.
Yep. Just like many in the US Left.
I think you did an excellent job in saying that we wait and see what the truth is. Thanks!
Like the 94% of registered voters who ballot for the looter kleptocracy, I believe EVERYTHING their pet media tells me. Kennedy and Connally were hit by the same magic bullet; electricity has caused climate Sharknados; LSD and weed make your kids come out with three eyes and no arms; the guy that killed John Lennon "wasn't really" a religious fanatic any more than Hitler was Christian... Teevee says it, I BEElieve it, that settles it.
Have you ever considered the thought, that maybe, just maybe, "Teevee" actually has done their research in the topics that you don't believe?
- It's possible for a bullet to hit two people
- The thought of Sharknados: https://www.cnet.com/culture/is-a-real-life-sharknado-possible/
- Chapman killed Lennon because he thought he was owed special recognition, not because of religious beliefs
- Hitler said disparaging remarks on Christianity in Hitler's Table Talk and other sources.
Do your research, Transgenderist Liberal!
I'm pretty damned sick of all the talk about how the western media were "fooled" by the Hamasholes' hospital air strike story. They all knew damned well that the source was Hamas. They ran with it because they want to incite violence against Jews.
Those fucking rags are maggoty with communists, pedos, jihadis, and every other kind of degenerate you can name. Fuck the NYT, fuck the WaPo, and fuck the whole god damned lefturd media cabal.
-jcr
That may be true, but the other side (your side, presumably), believes it is their god-given mission to "flood the zone with shit":
"The issue for many people isn’t exactly a denial of truth as such. It’s more a growing weariness over the process of finding the truth at all. And that weariness leads more and more people to abandon the idea that the truth is knowable.
I call this “manufactured” because it’s the consequence of a deliberate strategy. It was distilled almost perfectly by Steve Bannon, the former head of Breitbart News and chief strategist for Donald Trump. “The Democrats don’t matter,” Bannon reportedly said in 2018. “The real opposition is the media. And the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with shit.”
This idea isn’t new, but Bannon articulated it about as well as anyone can. The press ideally should sift fact from fiction and give the public the information it needs to make enlightened political choices. If you short-circuit that process by saturating the ecosystem with misinformation and overwhelm the media’s ability to mediate, then you can disrupt the democratic process.
What we’re facing is a new form of propaganda that wasn’t really possible until the digital age. And it works not by creating a consensus around any particular narrative but by muddying the waters so that consensus isn’t achievable.
Bannon’s political objective is clear. As he explained in a 2017 Conservative Political Action Conference talk, he sees Trump as a stick of dynamite with which to blow up the status quo. So “flooding the zone” is a means to that end. But more generally, creating widespread cynicism about the truth and the institutions charged with unearthing it erodes the very foundation of liberal democracy. And the strategy is working.
What flooding the zone actually means
For most of recent history, the goal of propaganda was to reinforce a consistent narrative. But zone-flooding takes a different approach: It seeks to disorient audiences with an avalanche of competing stories.
And it produces a certain nihilism in which people are so skeptical about the possibility of finding the truth that they give up the search. The fact that 60 percent of Americans say they encounter conflicting reports about the same event is an example of what I mean. In the face of such confusion, it’s not surprising that less than half the country trusts what they read in the press.
Bannon articulated the zone-flooding philosophy well, but he did not invent it. In our time, it was pioneered by Vladimir Putin in post-Soviet Russia. Putin uses the media to engineer a fog of disinformation, producing just enough distrust to ensure that the public can never mobilize around a coherent narrative."
Dude. Learn to edit.
-jcr
Tell us about Hitler and Nixon in Uruguay in '56.
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
Tucker Carlson is part of the lefturd media cabal?
The only way it could have killed 500 people or more is if it had hit the actual hospital, not the parking lot. So don't let a little thing like the hospital still standing and open for business get in the way of that Palestinian narrative.
There has been at least one good thing that has resulted from this. A lot on the left have been shaken by the willingness of closet anti-Semites to come out of the closet and expose themselves for what they are. A few in the right as well.
WHO THE HELL CARES!!!!!!!!!! I thought this was supposed to be a
libertarian magazine/forum.We are not the World police and should solve problems at home before handing out aid to everybody else.
Nobody in their right mind would stick their nose into this situation which goes back hundreds and hundreds of years.
Neville Chamberlain had the same idea.
Yes, Hamas is exactly the same as Adolph Hitler. To brain-dead, TDS-addled shitpiles.
There have been more free elections in Gaza than in Jordan.
That fly I just swatted has more brains than you.
Yet the Jordans and the Egyptians don’t want to let any Palestinians into their countries … go figure?
That is a good point. People that call Gaza the "worlds largest open air prison" don't seem to remember that one of its borders is with a Muslim-majority country (Egypt), or that the Egyptian portion of the blockade has been with the blessing of Palestinian Authority (Fatah) in the West Bank in the past.
I've tried demanding rigor. Honest and accurate communications are essential to the well being of human society. Unfortunately, the penalty for being honest and accurate is severe, as imposed by our society. Hey, six people agree!
The Media Will Never Forgive Israel for Not Bombing That Hospital
https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/10/the-media-will-never-forgive-israel-for-not-bombing-that-hospital/
I'm old enough to remember when Abdullah's father massacred about 3000 Palestinians.