Defenders of the Florida and Texas Social Media Laws Contradict Themselves
If Facebook et al. are pushing a "radical leftist narrative," why don’t they have a constitutional right to do that?

Social media companies argue that their content moderation decisions are a form of editorial discretion protected by the First Amendment. Conservative critics of those companies reject that argument, even as they complain that the platforms' decisions reflect a progressive agenda.
That contradiction is at the heart of two cases that the Supreme Court recently agreed to hear, which involve constitutional challenges to state laws that aim to correct the bias that Republicans perceive. Although supporters of those laws claim they are defending freedom of speech, that argument hinges on a dangerous conflation of state and private action.
The 2021 Florida law at issue in Moody v. NetChoice requires social media platforms to host speech by any "candidate for office," even when it violates their content rules. The law also says platforms may not limit the visibility of material "by or about" a political candidate and may not "censor, deplatform, or shadow ban a journalistic enterprise based on the content of its publication or broadcast."
The law does not cover relatively small, right-leaning platforms such as Gab, Parler, Rumble, and Truth Social. It applies only to the largest platforms, such as Twitter (now X), Facebook, and YouTube, which Republicans have long accused of discriminating against conservative speech.
Florida politicians made it clear that they were trying to address that perceived imbalance. The bill's legislative findings, which complain that Facebook et al. have "unfairly censored, shadow banned, deplatformed, and applied post-prioritization algorithms," assert that the state has a "substantial interest in protecting its residents from inconsistent and unfair actions" by those platforms.
"If Big Tech censors enforce rules inconsistently to discriminate in favor of the dominant Silicon Valley ideology," Gov. Ron DeSantis declared upon signing the bill in May 2021, "they will now be held accountable." Lt. Gov. Jeanette Nuñez said Florida was "taking back the virtual public square" from "big tech oligarchs" who were determined to "censor…views that run contrary to their radical leftist narrative."
Four months later, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott signed the law at issue in NetChoice v. Paxton, which says social media platforms may not "censor" speech based on "viewpoint" and defines censorship to include not just deletion but also any steps that make user-posted content less visible, accessible, or lucrative. Like Florida's statute, the Texas law is limited to the largest platforms, which Abbott said were trying to "silence conservative viewpoints and ideas," adding, "It is now law that conservative viewpoints in Texas cannot be banned on social media."
In May 2022, a panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit unanimously ruled that the major provisions of Florida's law probably violated the right to exercise editorial judgment, which the Supreme Court has recognized in diverse cases involving a Miami newspaper, an electric utility's newsletter, and a private organization's St. Patrick's Day parade. The 11th Circuit noted that "private actors have a First Amendment right to be 'unfair'—which is to say, a right to have and express their own points of view."
A divided panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit rejected that conclusion when it considered the Texas social media law later that year. Because they rely heavily on algorithms, do not review content before publication, and take action against only a tiny percentage of messages, Judge Andrew Oldham said in the majority opinion, Facebook et al. "are nothing like" a newspaper.
Writing in dissent, Judge Leslie Southwick objected to that characterization. While "none of the precedents fit seamlessly," Southwick said, a social media platform's right to curate content is analogous to "the right of newspapers to control what they do and do not print."
In arguing that the 5th Circuit got it right, DeSantis, Abbott, and like-minded politicians assert that Facebook et al. are pursuing a left-wing agenda while simultaneously denying that the First Amendment protects their right to do so. The Supreme Court should not let them have it both ways.
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“…Judge Andrew Oldham said in the majority opinion, Facebook et al. “are nothing like” a newspaper.”
Judge Oldham is correct, social media platforms are nothing like a newspaper, they are much less constrained by material scarcity in being forced to winnow their content. A newspaper is reasonably expected to have an editorial POV. Social media platforms, especially the large ones brought users in on the idea that they were a town hall or a community bulletin board, where the users were able to express their POVs. To build their brand on this idea, and then when they dominate the market announce they suddenly do have an editorial POV strikes me as a kind of fraud. Especially when this more censorious attitude comes at the behest of one of the political parties who cannot stand their opponents using alternative media effectively, even when they had done it themselves. Remember how clever the Obama campaign was for utilizing Facebook et al to help win the presidency? All of a sudden that kind of campaign tactic became a “threat to democracy” when used in support of a winning Trump candidacy. Not to mention the complete lack of transparency the platforms have in censoring content.
The dominate social media platforms having an editorial POV is greatly against a culture of free speech in our society, as if the answer to bad speech is more speech, then shutting down one side of the debate lessens the volume of speech.
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"Especially when this more censorious attitude comes at the behest of one of the political parties who cannot stand their opponents using alternative media effectively, even when they had done it themselves."
You're talking of "Parler" and of "Team R", right?
https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/29/as-predicted-parler-is-banning-users-it-doesnt-like/
I was talking specifically about Facebook and the Democrats, but Parler should not do that sort of thing either. This is not a partisan position for me.
From the article concerning Florida law:
"The law does not cover relatively small, right-leaning platforms such as Gab, Parler, Rumble, and Truth Social. It applies only to the largest platforms, such as Twitter (now X), Facebook, and YouTube, which Republicans have long accused of discriminating against conservative speech."
So the law CLEARLY favors "Team R"! Special laws for special people!
I am glad you think progessive speech is so uncompelling that ir cannot compete with conservative oriented speech if conservatives are not censored.
I'll pretend to be glad that at least ONE person (you) has confidence that your tin-foil hate-hat is working correctly! I "merely" support Section 230, and NON-Marxist PROPERTY RIGHTS of web site owners, and do NOT favor Government Almighty laws that favor one political tribe over another! Ass the Florid-duh law CLEARLY does!
Butt to be honest, malfunctioning tin-foil hate-hats aren't in the long-term interests of you, or anyone else. Self-righteous JOY in the short term, has long-term prices in the long run! "Karma", baby!
You mean like when Microsoft, Amazon and GoDaddy breached their contractual agreements with the "website owners" who operated Gab, sarcasmic?
Thanks for proving as always that the "special" in "special pleading" has the same meaning as the "special" in "special education" you drunken fucking retarded faggot.
Hi Tulpa!
“Dear Abby” is a personal friend of mine. She gets some VERY strange letters! For my amusement, she forwards some of them to me from time to time. Here is a relevant one:
Dear Abby, Dear Abby,
My life is a mess,
Even Bill Clinton won’t stain my dress,
I whinny seductively for the horses,
They tell me my picnic is short a few courses,
My real name is Mary Stack,
NO ONE wants my hairy crack!
On disability, I live all alone,
Spend desperate nights by the phone,
I found a man named Richard (Dick) Decker,
But he won’t give me his hairy pecker!
Dick Decker’s pecker is reserved for farm beasts,
I am beastly, yes! But my crack’s full of yeasts!
So Dear Abby, that’s just a poetic summary… You can read about the Love of my Life, Richard Decker, here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/11/farmers-kept-refusing-let-him-have-sex-with-their-animals-so-he-sought-revenge-authorities-say/ and https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/sex-animals-bestiality-farm-cows-horses-richard-decker-new-jersey-a9152136.html
Farmers kept refusing to let him have sex with their animals. So he sought revenge, authorities say.
Decker the hairy pecker told me a summary of his story as below:
Decker: “Can I have sex with your horse?”
Farmer: “Lemme go ask the horse.”
Pause…
Farmer: “My horse says ‘neigh’!”
And THAT was straight from the horse’s mouth! I’m not horsin’ around, here, no mare!
So Richard Decker the hairy pecker told me that, apparently never even realizing just HOW DEEPLY it hurt me, that he was all interested in farm beasts, while totally ignoring MEEE!!
So I thought maybe I could at least liven up my lonely-heart social life, by refining my common interests that I share with Richard Decker… I, too, like to have sex with horses!
But Dear Abby, the horses ALL keep on saying “neigh” to my whinnying sexual advances!
Some tell me that my whinnying is too whiny… Abby, I don’t know how to fix it!
Dear Abby, please don’t tell me “get therapy”… I can’t afford it on my disability check!
Now, along with my crack full of yeasts… I am developing anorexia! Some are calling me a “quarter pounder with cheese”, but they are NOT interested at ALL, in eating me!!! They will NOT snack on my crack!
What will I DO, Dear Abby?!?!?
-Desperately Seeking Horses, Men, or ANYTHING, in Fort Worth,
Yours Truly,
R Mac / Mary Stack / Tulpa / Mary’s Period / “.” / Satan
I believe it has officially gone stark raving mad.
That's exactly it: There was a large degree of bait and switch in how the dominant players got to be the dominant players.
While they were growing the degree of censorship was minimal to virtually non-existent. Then when they achieved essentially monopoly status, they started censoring their users.
If they'd started the censorship from the start, in all likelihood the market never would have gotten so concentrated in the first place.
This is, in fact, a compelling point.
Writing in dissent, Judge Leslie Southwick objected to that characterization. While "none of the precedents fit seamlessly," Southwick said, a social media platform's right to curate content is analogous to "the right of newspapers to control what they do and do not print."
So the platforms are like a newspaper and not like a newspaper, all at the same time.
Diane-Paul is like a mammal, and is NOT like an elephant shrew (which is a mammal), at the same time! I could generate (or have AI generate for me) a BILLION true statements like this! So what?
You generate thousands of such non-sequiturs in every comment thread here 16 hours a day 7 days a week every week of your pathetic welfare-leaching life as you drink yourself to death in your section 8 apartment, sarcasmic. So what? Indeed.
Tulpa is like (actually IS) a blood-sucking parasite that lives off of others, and feeds on suffering, death, and destruction! Tulpa is a Servant and Serpent of Satan! Get thee behind me, Tulpa!
Read this if you have a clue, oh slave to the Evil One! M. Scott Peck, Glimpses of the Devil https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1439167265/reasonmagazinea-20/
Well, yes, that's the nature of an analogy. It's a description of things are similar, not identical.
Either the analogy, the precedents, or the Judge's reasoning is, by the Judge's own statements, broken. Take your pick as to which one, you moron.
Exactly, so you can't say that these two things are dissimilar and then, in the next breath, insist they are similar.
A platform is like a newspapers 'letters' page, where the newspaper publishes letters from people who write in.
A platform is unlike a newspapers 'letters' page, where the newspaper publishes letters from people who write in, because there is no space constraint and all the letters get published.
A platform is unlike a newspapers 'letters' page, because the person writing can decide who gets to see what they've written.
In arguing that the 5th Circuit got it right, DeSantis, Abbott, and like-minded politicians assert that Facebook et al. are pursuing a left-wing agenda while simultaneously denying that the First Amendment protects their right to do so.
Well, we zipped way past "it's not happening", waltzed through "Ok, it's happening, but it's not as bad as you say" and seem to setting the landing gear down somewhere near to, "It's happening and it's their right to do so."
Coming soon: It’s happening and it’s a good thing.
It’s happening and it’s their right to do so.
Coming soon: It’s happening and it’s a good thing.
All true. It's happening. It's their right. And it's a good thing when we still have a freedom remaining, of which I'd rank freedom of speech at the top.
I'd say it's kind of a benchmark for how much you value freedom whether or not you are still in favor of that freedom when it's wielded against you. Fail for Meatball Ron and Abbott.
Social media platforms having an editorial POV, especially the ones that dominate the landscape is a threat to a culture of free speech as they shut down one side of the debate in favor of a totalitarian ideological set.
I agree, but explicitly violating free speech by the government is not the appropriate way to combat that problem.
Except you aren't arguing against the larger, longer-running, and more egregious and overt Free Speech violations. You're arguing against the retaliatory ones, which, being retaliatory, means Free Speech or the abiding thereof is already generally out the window.
You suggest the way to end the conflict is for Ron and Greg to put down their guns, but I don't think you and am pretty sure Jacob don't give a shit about ending the conflict or restoring liberty except inasmuch as exterminating one side and liberally stamping out the ideology in perpetuity.
I'll be clear that I think the left's violation of free speech was and is much worse that what the right did here. It still does not justify further violation of free speech.
As I said below, fighting back, as the right did with the lawsuit against the Biden administration, and pulling back the curtain of the twitter files, was the appropriate, constitutional and moral fight. Violating 1a is not.
Violating 1a is not.
Because of all the consequences that have been heaped on the Left and the Biden Administration as the result of hounding Assange off Twitter and bragging about it, chasing Snowden to international zones to languish and then putting Clapper, et al. back in charge, and then releasing the Twitter files and documentation of the Biden Administration's misdeeds?
No ref anywhere has called virtually any punch thrown by the left, but you're gonna call two punches that land just below the navel by the right? You do realize it doesn't make you any better in anyone's eyes, right? That your kids, if you've got any, are going to see it as a hyper-officious, pro-left Karen call, right? That, while the world tumbled into war between Ukraine and Russia, while the debt climbed higher and higher, while China grows increasingly totalitarian, you took a principled stance in the name of free speech and against, uh, Facebook being forced not to secretively shadowban candidates in FL and TX.
You do realize it doesn’t make you any better in anyone’s eyes, right? That your kids, if you’ve got any, are going to see it as a hyper-officious, pro-left Karen call, right?
OH NO! my kids will be so disappointed in what I said or didn't say online, while books will be written about your bold stance against the left apocalypse (that you said in the comments section of a relatively obscure website).
Once the state takes a power, it is harnessed by the establishment to be used against everyone. We got here one little "punch below the navel" at a time. That is why I take my position.
Because of all the consequences that have been heaped on the Left and the Biden Administration as the result of hounding Assange off Twitter and bragging about it, chasing Snowden to international zones to languish and then putting Clapper, et al. back in charge, and then releasing the Twitter files and documentation of the Biden Administration’s misdeeds?
And these laws do any better how?
We got here one little “punch below the navel” at a time.
No, especially with regard to free speech on the internet, we didn't. There is/was a rather overt "Words don't mean what they say, they mean what Congress says." moment, from which point all bets were off.
And these laws do any better how?
You mean aside from saying what they do and doing what they say? You mean aside from being litigated in the courts? You mean aside being duly enacted by their legislative bodies? You mean aside from doing all of the above while directly pushing back against the all bets are off decision-making previously ordered?
Because, once again, for you and people like Sullum, Constitutional constraints, rule of law, Federalism, due process, etc., etc. don't mean dick when you've got Republicans to prove to be wrongerer than the problem that they didn't create.
‘We got here one little “punch below the navel” at a time.’
No, especially with regard to free speech on the internet, we didn’t.
QB: “We got here in little steps.”
MC *looking at his electron microscope image*: “No. In this specific area of law, this tiny technicality all happened in 1 quantum leap.”
You mean aside from… No I don’t mean aside from any of those. You pointed out that the lawsuit and twitter files didn’t fix all those ills, so what have these laws done where that failed?
Because, once again, for you and people like Sullum, Constitutional constraints, rule of law, Federalism, due process, etc., etc. don’t mean dick when you’ve got Republicans to prove to be wrongerer than the problem that they didn’t create.
I’m the one defending constitutional constraints. Federalism is great when it honors the Bill of Rights. I know this horse won’t drink, but how many times do I need to say dems are worse than reps on this? That doesn’t justify expanding government power at the expense of our freedom, especially when it backfires. Keep these laws and I look forward to 10 years from now seeing supporters dumbfounded when it is used against them.
Agreed. The bait and switch actions by big tech platforms has been shitty. But that’s a marketing and private company problem, not one that government has the right to interfere with. Very inappropriate for government to demand certain speech from any private actor, whether to right a wrong or not. The overarching principle of free speech is more important than any substance issues with a tech company.
It does really start to beg the question, though, of why do these platforms still garner Section 230 protections. Why if they are no newspapers and can curate their content, do they get public square protections. Leave government out of it and just allow the platforms to be liable for their content. Seems like the problem would get fixed pretty quick.
But that’s a marketing and private company problem, not one that government has the right to interfere with.
Except, dumbass, the government interfered with the issue up front and is/was itself part of the fraud. It was a blatant lie, but the lie was that Section 230 was going to keep the kiddie porn and viagra ads from drowning your Amazons Bookstores, instead it was used to defend Amazon and Facebook's purging of undesirables that would otherwise be protected by free speech and free association, in violation of their TOS.
You just called me a dumbass for calling into question 230 protections all while you rail against 230 protections. I know you're a hot head, but maybe calm it down a little so that your responses aren't quite so illogical.
It sounds like we're agreeing to disagree that the tech platforms silenced thousands, if not tens of thousands of voices and ideas that didn't align neatly with Democratic narratives, many instances of which were at the behest of the Federal government through a massive censorship industrial complex that used a system of censorship 'outsourcing' by same government, and therefore will continue to do so from here on out.
I’d say it’s kind of a benchmark for how much you value freedom whether or not you are still in favor of that freedom when it’s wielded against you. Fail for Meatball Ron and Abbott.
I'd say it's not so much a benchmark as a direct indicator as to how far away people have fallen from freedom, reason, and plain text speech that they openly ignore "Congress shall make no law..." in defense of their own personal "Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott shall not make *this* law."
You don't give a shit about free speech, the internet, or even words or what they mean. You, like Sullum, only care inasmuch as you get to punish people with the wrong color of skin.
You, like Sullum, only care inasmuch as you get to punish people with the wrong color of skin.
mmmmhmmm. What color skinned people do I want to punish?
What color skinned people do I want to punish?
Orange.
That took a turn I didn't expect.
Yeah, to be fair, you're pretty fucking stupid.
I appreciate the gesture of fairness...wait a minute... 🙁
But seriously, to make accusations of racism, then when asked to clarify, narrowing it down to a single person (not even involved in the discussion) is a turn a logical person might miss, but then, I'm pretty fucking stupid.
Oh wait...Hi Tulpa?
FIrst off, that social media companies also have First Amendment rights has always been part of the argument. Secondly, the belief "conservatives" were being censored is based on lies pushed by far right radicals who are about as conservative as Mussolini.
Hey shreek, remember that time you posted dark web links to hardcore child pornography at Reason.com and got an entire thread nuked off the servers and got your original Sarah Palin's Buttplug account banned? You should have tried to claim 230 protections.
They have a first amendment right to censor information as demanded by the federal government, or Dianne Feinstein will "do it for them."
If Facebook et al. are pushing a "radical leftist narrative," why don’t they have a constitutional right to do that?
Shitty sentence
Then write a better one for us!
Why does "Team R" have a constitutional right to write, speak, and gather NON-fraudulent votes, but ALL non-Team-R votes are fraudulent?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses.
Essential heart and core of the LIE by Trump: “ANY election results not confirming MEEE as Your Emperor, MUST be fraudulent!”
September 13 rally: “The Democrats are trying to rig this election because that’s the only way they’re going to win,” he said.
Why do dead Democrats have a right to vote, which has been the case since at least the '60s? Why do Democrats seemingly have an unending hard on for election laws that make fraudulent voting easier, such as "vote harvesting"?
I'm assuming you mean the 1860s on the "dead voter" issue?
Also, ballot harvesting isn't technically illegal in lots of places, and generally involves the ballots of valid and eligible voters getting cast. Whether the partisan activists doing it can be trusted to faithfully honor the intent of the voters they're helping with the process (or to not fill in the down-ballot votes illegally in the cases where the harvesters only have the voters mark for President) is another question altogether, but there is definitely an entirely valid and ethical manner in which that activity could hypothetically be carried out (and zero oversight or accountability to see that it's actually done that way).
How about a version of all the times that Liz Warren declared publicly that "the only way the Republicans can win an election is to cheat", or that any GOP victory constitutes proof of an invalid election?
It's possibly beyond even the imagination of Orwell himself that the perpetrators of the "Russiagate" hoax claiming that "foreign interference" altered the outcome in 2016 (and who also have never backed down from the claim that the 2000 election was stolen because Gore would have won Florida based on a different recount scenario than the one his lawyers had in progress) would so quickly pivot to push the notion that Donny Jingles (as Penn Jilette calls him) single-handedly invented the idea of an election possibly being invalid and has engaged in some manner of historically unprecedented behavior amounting to sedition and/or treason.
I guess if you'll believe that a few hundred random people and a couple dozen with half a plan, zip ties, and bear spray nearly accomplished something that would supposedly be hopeless if it were instead 20 million people armed with "weapons of war", then almost anything that also conforms to your chosen world-view can be plausible.
"Liz Warren declared publicly that “the only way the Republicans can win an election is to cheat”..." I never heard of that... Do you have a cite? I Googled and found nothing...
Liz Warren wasn't (ever, as far as I know) running in the fall elections for POTUS, so I am wondering how fair of a comparison this is, even if she did say stupid stuff of that kind... The more power that you seek, the more responsible and honest you should be! A certain "Team R" front-runner for POTUS fails that test miserably right now, IMHO. Wanna guess who?
Hey sarcasmic, you know how you have absolutely no idea what "whataboutism" means and misuse the term constantly because you're a drunken fucking imbecile who dropped out of high school and has the vocabulary of an average grade schooler with Down's syndrome? This would be an actual example of what that looks like. Hope that helps.
You are hopeless, but there is hope even for hopeless assholes! So long ass they are still LIVING assholes! (And believe me ye; ye ARE a living asshole!)
Start by reading this: M. Scott Peck, the Hope for Healing Human Evil, https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684848597/reasonmagazinea-20/
Because leftists aren't people, and therefore have no rights.
Let's see if I understand this. The problem is that left has hijacked social media and made it biased against conservatives. The solution to this to use laws, and in government force, to make them be fair. Doing that is a blatant violation of the 1A, but it's ok because once someone has been mean to Trump they forfeit all Constitutional rights.
'as in' not 'and in'
When “the left” is actually “the left wing US government”, it changes things a bit.
You're right, of course.
So the left coerces social media with implicit threats of government action.
The right's solution is to make those threats explicit.
The solution to media bias is to use the Constitution as toilet paper?
I just want to be sure.
Were the feds and Biden administration using the constitution as toilet paper when they infiltrated and leaned on on these companies?
I just want to be sure, because a lot of the same people poopooing this laughed off the idea it was happening until incontrovertible proof was attained and still laugh off the idea of a ministry of truth. Even though it’s happening in lockstep across the western world.
To be sure I don’t want gov involved in any of it. But that’s not actually what’s happening.
If the Biden administration's influence on these media platforms was unlawful or in violation of the Constitution (and I would say it most likely is), then it should be addressed as such.
Letting it be an excuse to pass laws that ignore the 1A is falling for a Republican power grab.
It has been addressed as such. Are you surprised nothings happened?
How is it a republican power grab? What power? To protect conservative speech online? Which republicans? The ones that cave to everything and can’t bother to act as opposition in any meaning coordinated way? The actual argument against it is that it might give the left powers they didn’t have before.
So it's only a power grab when the other guys compel speech, but not when your team does it?
Is it compelling speech when you are asked to be the open forum you presented yourself as?
Dude, we're talking about legislation. That goes way beyond simply asking them to be what you consider to be an open forum.
Yeah, it turns out that one of the functions of government is to enforce contracts and legal accountability, drunky.
The pro arguments are more along the line of:
These companies are proven to hardly be private entities to begin with and can’t hide behind that.
And/or
Compelled Speech is now the norm and the political opposition wishes create a legal carve out against being smothered by a corpo/commie clampdown on free speech. As seen everywhere in the western world the last few years.
I myself instinctively feel the Texas and Florida laws probably aren’t the way. But I sure as shit do not trust Reason and blue pilled libertarian’s waving of principles on this point. They’ve failed so utterly to grasp what has actually been going on since at least 2017 or so.
It just seems to me like the current iteration of the cycle.
"They're abusing their power. To stop them from abusing their power, we need more power."
"Oh no! They're abusing their new power! We need this new power!"
It's all a show.
And yet you remained as silent as you were when you threatened violence against multiple people here and then pussied out like a faggot bitch when they took you up on it when the original abuse of power took place, and now you're in a tailspin of pants-shitting because your fascist corporate cronies might have their fascist collaboration with the government curtailed.
So they should not fight back and take it like a bitch? Doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me.
Cedeing everything to the left is a big piece of how we ended up in this mess.
No, you don't need to take it like a bitch. I think the right did a great job of fighting back with the lawsuit against the Biden administration and by revealing the truth like the twitter files. These 2 laws, however go too far by violating free speech.
Aye.
I’m getting really tired of how “fighting back” has turned into justification for doing the exact same unconstitutional crap as the other guy.
The ruling against the Biden admin and other agencies was a huge free speech win and is exactly the kind of fighting back that needs to occur. And it’s fighting back within the constitutional framework and not fighting back by violating the constitution based on “whatabout” excuses.
The one that did literally absolutely nothing to curtail the original or future violations of free speech and has already been ignored with impunity, you fucking retard? When your "huge wins for free speech" result in absolutely fucking nothing being done about fascist collaboration between corporate entities created in large part with angel investments from the CIA's In-Q-Tel venture capital fund collaborating with one party in a radical left-wing government to enforce cultural hegemony and curtail free speech, those "wins" are as useless as sarcasmic's microchode after his 8th quart of plastic jug Walmart brand vodka at 2 PM on a Tuesday.
Wow. I see someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.
I’m not a fan of using one form of government censorship to counteract another form of government censorship, just as I’m also not a fan of using one form of racial discrimination to counteract another form of racial discrimination.
No, the fix to improper government censorship of protected speech is to outright ban it. “Congress shall make no law” is the one and only standard.
Where FL and TX get this wrong is by coercing good behavior. That you cannot do. Coercion is just another form of forcing an opinion. Censorship is enforcement by forbidding speech, coercion is enforcement by requiring speech. The standard is stay the heck out of it.
The real problem is that the purpose of Section 230 protection was to eliminate the legitimate motive (legal liability for content) for someone claiming to want to operate a "digital town square" to engage in such ideological censorship; by making the distinction between a "platform" which provides an open forum for expression, and a "publisher" which engages in editorial control over the content going out into the world.
If the social media companies want to enforce a particular point of view, and silence or otherwise suppress dissenting voices then I'd say they're declaring themselves to be a "publisher" and therefore subject to legal liability for whatever does go out on their bandwidth. They should absolutely be free to do so, but with the understanding that it also amounts to declaring themselves exempted from Section 230 and the kind of liability protection which was intended to disincentivize such editorial exercises; if they're choosing what ideas and language get to be expressed by their users, then they should also own accountability for those choices.
The truth is that Big Tech Platforms do discriminate against conservatives, libertarians and basically anyone who does not support their leftist agenda.
It is also true that the Big Tech Platforms have been willing accomplices with Big Government which common goals of destroying the ability of dissenting voices.
This is a large hurdle to overcome and it is true that at times conservative voices and elected officials overstep and become hypocritical.
Never mind that liberal voices and elected officials along with the Big Tech Platforms were hypocritical and sinister in implementing their actions to discriminate against conservatives, libertarians and other dissenting voices.
Speaking of not having things both ways, if reader-submitted content is legally not the product of the media companies according to Sec. 230, then after they exercise their 1A rights to curate and censor it, it certainly should be classified as such. They’ve had their hands all over it. They’ve made choices to include and exclude. They’ve promoted some and demoted others.
They own the distribution, completely. Copyright law has long recognized the roles of distributor vs producer vs author. The distributor makes the final choice over what the consumer sees.
So certainly the distributors should be liable to be sued for what they distribute. I, for one, would like to see a suit filed against any media company that distributed false information related to vaccine efficacy. We were told in no uncertain terms that a product was safe and effective. We were fed story after story to that effect. We upturned our entire lives based on that information. And that information is now entirely discredited, resulting in enormous cost and loss.
I, along with millions of others, were harmed. Where is our right to a fair hearing?
The point of Section 230 was to allow a light moderation hand without incurring legal liability for the content that remains, not to allow heavy handed content moderation without liability.
The notion of Section 230 wad only a good idea withinn a narrow window, and the platforms are operating far outside that window.
The point of Section 230 was to allow a light moderation hand without incurring legal liability for the content that remains, not to allow heavy handed content moderation without liability.
Incorrect. The point of Section 230 was and is to do what we see today. Overtly and specifically in the refutation of both Cubby v. Compuserve (light/no moderation incurs no liability) and Stratton Oakmont v. Prodigy (heavy, direct shadow moderation incurs full editorial liability).
The narrow window is a false construct the same way the legions of trolls are a false construct. Any narrow window is exactly the reason we have courts. If the "narrow" window is too wide for any one court to handle, we have class and summary action suits and a federated judiciary. If the "narrow" window is still too wide, companies can apply for and get Title II protections if they're worried about 50% of their customers considering the other 50% of their customers to be trolls.
What they cannot do is pretend they only own 50% of the content to 50% of their customers and users, pretend they own the other 50% to the other 50% of their customers and users, and still legally insist they own 100% of the content. Section 230 isn't a narrow window, it's a hole that's been smashed in the side of the wall that some people want to pretend is a window.
Okay, I'll bite. How were you harmed by the Covid vaccine?
Speaking for myself, My job was in question over whether I got the jab, and was only really saved by the SCOTUS decision against the mandate. Which occurred one day after I had to submit my vax status to the company. In so much as the government enforced “truth” on social media acted as the contextual justification for for the mandate it effected millions.
Need the VAERS link again, Episiarch/Bo Cara Esq.?
The main issue is that the Big Tech problems are doing this *in conjunction with the government*. They're full of ex-CIA, ex-FBI, ex-NSA, and whoever else agents. The platforms are censored and threatened by government to do the government's dirty work of censorship as an end run around the Constitution. "We didn't censor you, private companies did!" -- except at the direction of government, or at least under duress (do this, or else X). The government even boosted some of them early on, such as Google, with cash infusions. Stop the gaslighting that pretends these firms aren't being controlled, strong-armed, and even funded by an evil, censorious, bureaucratic regime.
Also, while not a libertarian philosophy, current antitrust law should also preclude a handful of tech giants from censoring conversations. If you cannot be discriminated against by AT&T for what you say on the phone (public utility law), given the size and scope of these platforms, it's rather hypocritical to grant the tech firms an exception from playing by the same rules. Like it or not, the huge platforms that everyone is on are the digital public square. And while people eventually leave -- I certainly spend little time on FB and didn't spend much time on Twitter/X until Musk took over -- that process is slow, sticky, and allows for the sort of election meddling that big tech and corporate media pretend to be against, even though they're doing it ALL THE TIME.
That said, the laws could be better constructed to apply specifically to what I said in the first paragraph: if you're taking government funds, if you're full of ex-government agents, and/or you're in communication with the government regarding moderation of any content on your platform that is not explicitly illegal, THEN you're guilty of a 1A rights violation. Because that's obviously the government doing the censoring, not "muh private companies."
I'm happy to enforce the 1st Amendment against the government, sure. But there is no valid "libertarian" aspect of anti-trust legislation--certainly not for what are essentially just big and successful companies, not monopolies. Elon is showing us just how easy it is to destroy one of them.
But there’s arguably a perfectly good strategic aspect of using anti-trust legislation when it’s the law of the land, but nakedly only benefits one side of the argument. Sort of like the civil rights act.
And to what extent are these companies big and successful directly thanks to gov help?
It’s a Gordian Knot, and people can agree on the ultimate goal while disagreeing about which thread to cut first.
So far, just constantly demurring from tactical reality doesn’t seem to be working very well. And I’d hold off on using Elon as an example (though I ultimately agree with your point), because shit hasn’t even begun to get real yet for him and his company.
I did say it was not a libertarian argument. Just something that could be used to fix the mess. It'd be kind of amusing to make all the big government types scream about how antitrust law is bad when it isn't being wielded THEIR way.
The bigger problem is the merger of corporate and state power. Antitrust is only a small part of it. Another novel idea would be to jointly hit colluding government agencies and corporations with RICO charges. I can almost see the foam spewing out of their mouths now. ????
Isn’t having “private” companies do the violations under direction by the government (or upon “request” from agents of a government which could suddenly make their operations nearly untenable with or without cause) what used to actually be part of the literal definition of “Fascism”? Along with the forcible suppression of ideas and questions which happen to be threatening of inconvenient to the agenda of those in power?
Then there’s BS like this, where they’re asking for violating the US Constitution on behalf of a foreign government….
https://mate.substack.com/fbi-helps-ukraine-censor-twitter
If the social media giants think they have a right to be treated just like newspapers, I'm fine with that. Get rid of Section 230. There's no reason the editorial discretion of the social media giants shouldn't be subject to the same potential liability as their brick-and-mortar newsprint counterparts. To say that a particular class of company should have a special dispensation from the legitimate redress of grievances isn't libertarian. It's unreconstructed cronyism.
Defenders of Section 230 Contradict Themselves. Rather Than Fix Their Own Contradictions, They Blame Republicans for Pouncing.
Section 230: “Protection For ‘Good Samaritan’ Blocking and Screening of Offensive Material”
Brief list of superficial contradictions:
1. Isn’t ‘The Good Samaritan’ a Biblical Parable and this is quite literally Biblical Law written into Federal Law, violating Separation of Church and State?
2. The eponymous ‘Good Samaritan’ didn’t block, screen, or even edit anyone. Instead, he helped people he was socially expected to malign.
3. How does blocking and screening of offensive material promote or achieve free speech? Isn’t censoring said “offensive” speech *literally and directly* as paradoxical as TX and FL censoring Progressive Speech?
4. Always critical to laws that violate free speech: Who decides who’s a Good Samaritan and what offensive speech gets blocked? Jesus? Congress? If the former, again violation of Church and State, no? If the latter, Congress passed a law protecting the blocking and screening of material it deemed offensive in direct violation of the 1A, no?
Of course, the more you dig into the law, me more self-contradicted the law is (e.g. How does 95+% of the text of a law get ruled Unconstitutional but, somehow, the remaining <5% get extracted from the rest of the plainly Unconstitutional rule-making, did Congress suddenly start abiding The Constitution at that part or did Justices start effectively legislating?). This is by design and since inception. Both sides wanted the law to do patently Unconstitutional things, so they cached their respective transgressions in each others’ rhetoric for mutual acceptance. There’s an old (non-Christian) adage about democracy being how two wolves and a sheep decide what’s for lunch. S230 is every inch of it.
Sullum, your “The internet wouldn’t exist without the 1A of the internet, Section 230.” retardation stopped having traction over a year ago when ENB stopped using it. The contradictions are so obvious even a moron cannot continue to abide them. What’s worse, the whole NN issue, which is approximately equally bad but was seemingly dead, has reared its ugly head again and you continue to pretend “REPUBLICANZ IZ WURS!”
To talk down to Republicans who refuse to abide your status quo idiocy would require you to GYOST. But then, you don’t really care about Free Speech, a Free Internet, or any of it, you just care that the other wolves of the other pack don’t get to eat the same amount of lamb as the wolves on your team.
Because they are not, in fact, private actors operating in a free market.
Even if they were, we draw a distinction between services a company provides and their speech. That's why Verizon can publish whatever nonsense they want on their website, but Verizon can't listen in to your phone calls, selectively drop connections if they don't like what you say, or bombard you with advertisements during calls.
... we draw a distinction between services a company provides and their speech. That’s why Verizon can publish whatever nonsense they want on their website, but Verizon can’t listen in to your phone calls, selectively drop connections if they don’t like what you say, or bombard you with advertisements during calls.
Exactly this.
The service an ISP or mobile phone company is providing is obviously to only facilitate a person's ability to directly communicate with people that they choose. Among other things, common carrier laws exist under the presumption that the carrier has no business interest in the content that they are carrying.
That is not true for social media. The business model of a social media platform includes creating a social atmosphere that users will like so that they continue to use the platform. It is clearly in the business interest of a platform to moderate content to satisfy the largest number of its users possible. That is why Instagram censors images for nudity and other sexual content, for instance. (Though many models on that platform find all kinds of ways to get right up to the point where it would ban them, of course.)
Actually, you retarded fucking faggot, the customers of "social media" companies are advertisers, not users. Users are the product. Television viewers and radio listeners are not the customers of TV and radio stations either. Since those media outlets want to satisfy their actual customers - fascist corporations in thrall to the radical left wing party in the United States federal government - they curate their content to the satisfaction of their customers. If that sounds like a familiar old business model, it's because it's called "publishing" when you do it any place other than the worldwide web.
Actually, you retarded fucking faggot, the customers of “social media” companies are advertisers, not users. Users are the product.
And I never said that users were the customers. I said that the business model of social media companies is to attract and retain as many users as possible. I left it as understood that this is to provide the most value to those actually paying them - the advertisers. Instead of calling me names, you should read what I write more closely.
Since those media outlets want to satisfy their actual customers – fascist corporations in thrall to the radical left wing party in the United States federal government – they curate their content to the satisfaction of their customers.
No, that is only how it works in the minds of conspiracy theorists. A media company that receives advertising revenue does need to keep advertisers happy. (Not all media companies rely almost entirely on ad revenue the way social media companies do, though. Newspapers and magazines get ad revenue as well as subscription fees and those that pay cover price for individual issues.) But keeping advertisers happy is accomplished by keeping a lot of users that are fully engaged in the platform (and thus more likely to see and click on ads).
A social media company that mostly tries to please advertisers' political goals is going to lose users that don't share those goals.
If all of these fever dreams are true, that the largest social media companies are all leftists (except for "X" now that Elon owns it), then people on the right will just naturally leave those platforms and join ones that have political leanings to the right. If FoxNews can get good ratings catering to the right, then why couldn't a social media platform? Why insist on trying to make existing social media companies host right-wing content rather than people on the right just all joining Rumble and Truth Social or whatever?
I think that you don't like the answer to that question. FoxNews gets good ratings because there just aren't that many people watching news programs anymore. People conservative enough to like the commentary on Fox just aren't a large audience. And conservatives that don't like how leftist they perceive Facebook and pre-Musk Twitter to be aren't a large enough set of users to populate social media platforms and make them competitive against the giants.
I think you're afraid that you're a shrinking portion of the U.S. population. That it is an increasing portion of the country that doesn't like it when someone uses the word "f****t" the way you did bothers you. That your political ideas and identity aren't the default positions of America is something to be afraid of. Perhaps you should learn to control your fear. After all, fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. And hate leads to suffering.
> ... why don’t they have a constitutional right to do that?
Because the Constitution is just a damned piece of paper, or so Republican Vice President once told us. Republicans do not care about the rule of law, do not care about institutions, and do not care about the Constitution.
Fuck, the Republicans want to burn the Constitution so that the Democrats won't burn it first. It's toddler politics.
"This is no time for freedom of speech when people and uttering speech we don't like!!!"
That's why we needed Joe "Wrong within normal parameters" Biden to illegally infiltrate social media companies with government agents, right you bootlicking fascist faggot?
Just to see if I understand the Florida and Texas arguments correctly. A corporation has 1st Amendment rights just like individual people do. (Citizens United) It can spend unlimited amounts of money through whatever means are available to it to spread its opinions on politics (as long as it doesn't get caught coordinating with a candidate).
But if that corporation is big enough (by whatever definition lawmakers come up with for big enough), then it loses its right to control who says what about politics using its resources. Well, unless that company also owns a theme park. Then they aren't subject to a law that forces them host political speech they might not want on their platforms.
Thanks for demonstrating that you do not, it saves a lot of time.
Please educate me then. What is their argument and is it consistent with precedent like Citizens United and exempting theme park owners from the law?
I mean, if we're talking self-contradiction, the large platforms' lobbying group NetChoice backs Net Neutrality, which is the same imposition of common carrier non-discrimination, just on a different set of companies.
And NetChoice backs not just Section 230 but the most radical version thereof (the mistaken precedent that immunity from being held as liable as a publisher also grants immunity from being held liable as a distributor, even though the whole intent was to reduce the liability of censorious publisher-alikes like Prodigy to the same level as distributors like CompuServe, not eliminate the ordinary liability of distributors as limited by Smith v. California), insisting that the platforms should have all the immunity of a common carrier.
Texas is just saying that the platforms act like common carriers with one exception (engaging in post-facto deletion and banning), and therefore they are common carriers who aren't entitled to an exception. Sites that actually act like publishers/broadcasters by selecting their content in advance, instead of fire-hosing user content from the general public and then retroactively removing some, are exempt from the law [see Section 120.001(1)(C)(i)].
Now, there's a decent libertarian argument to be made that private entities should not be required to act as common carriers. But that's not a US law argument. And of course the actual libertarian argument would also require repeal of Section 230, instead accepting that platforms that choose to take editorial power over what content they carry also accept legal responsibility for how they exercise that power.
And of course the actual libertarian argument would also require repeal of Section 230, instead accepting that platforms that choose to take editorial power over what content they carry also accept legal responsibility for how they exercise that power.
The problem with this is how it is not remotely practical for large social media platforms to have full editorial power in advance of posting content. X (Twitter) has around half a billion posts per day. YouTube sees 500 hours of video uploaded every minute. You are presenting this as a choice for social media companies. Be a publisher with full 1st Amendment protection but also liability for what is published, or have a free-for-all with zero editorial control and zero liability. But only one of those choices is actually feasible. That was the whole point of Section 230, to give them the ability to moderate content after the fact and still not be liable, because otherwise, they wouldn't be able to manage content on their platforms at all.
And users want some moderation. These platforms would never have gotten so popular if they weren't moderated at all. There is a reason why so few people are into forums that don't do any moderation.
You mean like this one? Lol.
Section 230 has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment, so a government could pass it or repeal it under its general police powers, no problem. To the extent it advances free speech opportunities, it's a good thing--in the same way shielding gun manufacturers from nuisance lawsuits is a good thing.
But it is utter stupidity to assume that repealing 230 will result in more free speech opportunities; it will result in fewer--quite a lot fewer. But hey, get the votes and you can do what you want...
It will result in exponentially more free speech opportunities, it will just break the back of a centralized cartel of information distribution, since users will have to go back to using protocols instead of platforms to express themselves. And that's what's really got you shitting your pants, Episiarch/Bo Cara Esq. (dba Mike "White Mikey" Laursen).
No, I'm not. Smith v. California and Cubby v. CompuServe don't go away if Section 230 is repealed. Distributor-level liability (that faced by bookstores, newsstands, and libraries) is a thing in US law, and continues to be a thing if Section 230 is repealed.
Section 230 as written was intended to give platforms that exercised publisher-like control the liability level of distributors. This not only was entirely improper from a libertarian perspective (whatever liability level is proper for publishers, it shouldn't be magically lower for computer services than newspapers), but, in fact, would be of no use whatsoever to modern social media platforms like YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter/X, because they don't exercise the level of preemptive control that newspapers do over their letters columns or that Prodigy exercised over its message boards. Whether the Supreme Court corrects the misinterpretation of Section 230 or Section 230 is repealed, YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter/X would face distributor-level liability.
And distributors are perfectly allowed to curate what they distribute. Bookstores get to choose what books they sell, newsstands get to choose what publications they sell, and they can choose to stop if they decide they don't like something they've distributed in the past. They just don't get immunity from liability for continuing to distribute things like libel after being notified.
And we know platforms like Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter/X can handle notice-based liability for libel, because they already have to for copyright violations. They just don't want to, hiding behind the misapplied Section 230.
This makes a lot more sense. In all the previous discussions I've seen about social media alleged censorship and Section 230, I can't remember anyone bring up distributors of information as a model. That includes posts on the Volokh legal blog here.
I can accept social media platforms being treated like distributors rather than the way Section 230 is applied now. Meaning, they get to moderate how they want, but are held liable if they have notice of content that violates someone's legal rights and don't moderate it in a legally appropriate way.
The worry with that, however, is that they might feel pressured to take down content that doesn't create any liability, but someone claims that it does in order to shut them up. Social media companies get really harsh quickly over alleged copyright violations when fair use looks pretty obvious to me. As an example, there is a YouTuber where I've watched a couple dozen of his videos. He is(was?) a record producer (mostly rock) of significant, but modest success. But one of his main things is to analyze "what makes this song great?". He does so in a way that goes into the music theory of rock and pop songs (which can be a lot more musically sophisticated that I thought). As the clear purpose being to educate about music, it seems completely like fair use. But he has had record companies go after some of his videos to get them taken down. Not just demonetized, either, but removed. And there is little he can do about it, because his whole channel can get taken down if he challenges these copyright claims and loses too many of those challenges. (The challenges are decided by YouTube, also, not independent copyright lawyers or arbitrators.)
Imagine how that could be abused when a public figure doesn't like how they are criticized or portrayed in someone's video or podcast or blog post.
In other words, publishers should face differing levels of legal accountability based upon the volume of content they handle despite being otherwise identical from a business and legal standpoint. Thanks for proving that the "special" in "special pleading" has the same meaning as the "special" in "special education" you literal fucking fascist.
Now, there’s a decent libertarian argument to be made that private entities should not be required to act as common carriers. But that’s not a US law argument. And of course the actual libertarian argument would also require repeal of Section 230,
This feels like more of the "backwards retcon gestalt" narrative. The libertarian and US Law argument were the same prior to S230. We didn't just magically end up in a situation where libertarian notions of free speech and corporate ownership were at odds with US law, S230 specifically generated the situation. As indicated in your interpretation of the TX law, no business *has* to be a Title II entity. The FedGov doesn't pull out their sword, deign them such, and State and Local govs, in fealty to the crown, just throw money at them. They apply for Title II categorization and just can't advertise and act like a public utility and then turn around and refuse service to Blacks and Jews. Even then, the Title II only applies with regard to the specific common carrier portion of the business not even the entirety of the business or the industry in general. If they want to sell electricity to everyone equally out of the front of the store and charge everyone nickel tours (no Blacks, no Jews) at the back of the factory, the tours are not (necessarily) a public accommodation.
Net neutrality was never exactly a common carrier argument. A common carrier can always have multiple tiers of service.
The FCC does not wave a wand and declare an entity to be a common carrier.
Pre-1996, the FCC had to define an entity, which was a common carrier by common law, to be an FCC-regulated communications common carrier if and only if the carrier were a common carrier that was involved in communications.
After 1996 the FCC had the ability to define a communications common carrier to be an FCC-regulated telecommunications carrier. A carrier, which the FCC did not declare to be a telecommunications carrier, is unregulated even if it it is common carrier, which is involved in communications.
There is no right to censor.
Not in the First Amendment, not in any amendment.
You have every right to not listen to things you do not want to hear.
You have no right whatsoever to prevent other people from hearing things you don't want to hear.
You also have no right to use someone else’s megaphone.
So you get to be meta-censor and that is okay ??
The whole Internet is a government-conceded use of a publicly-created utility. Look it up. Until you and they do something about Internet scams targeting the elderly, pornography destroying the family, Search engines interfering with elections...we are talking about trivialities
Headline TODAY
"Search engine optimization or political bias? Biden challengers nearly nonexistent in Google results"
And this does not bother you???
Mr. Sullum is not wrong that compelling speech (Reps) is no better than censoring it (Dems). What detracts from his message is his bias against Republicans that shows up in his verb choices, e.g., ‘conservative critics complain’ and ‘the bias that Republicans perceive’. No, conservatives are not complaining or perceiving. They are working, albeit improperly, to correct a well known problem. We are now in a time of real ‘systemic oppression’ of anything that disputes the approved narrative. I, for one, believe that every time the subject of free speech comes up, we Libertarians should address the fact that there shouldn't even BE an approved narrative.
I don't think this is so complicated. Electric utilities, for example, are not permitted to choose who gets electricity and who doesn't. Since social media is so ubiquitous, maybe social media sites that have more than a certain number of users should be defined as utilities, meaning they are not permitted to censor posts, but they can tag and report them (and their authors) to the government as potentially illegal. So, anti-semitism fine; urging people to kill Jews, not fine
And, as a compromise (as Musk suggests), the social media site could still choose to publicize the sort of posts it will not intentionally amplify, while leaving the posts themselves undisturbed.
Google pays $300 on a regular basis. My latest salary check was $8600 for working 10 hours a week on the internet. My younger sibling has been averaging $19k for the last few months, and he constantly works approximately 24 hours. I’m not sure how simple it was once I checked it out.
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