Alabama Cops Who Arrested Mechanic for Not Giving Them His ID Denied Qualified Immunity
"The police are free to ask questions, and the public is free to ignore them," wrote a federal judge.

A federal court has sided with Roland Edger, an Alabama man who says he was wrongfully arrested after he declined to give police officers his driver's license in 2019. While a lower court had granted qualified immunity to the officers, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit overturned that decision, ruling that the officers clearly violated Edger's Fourth Amendment rights and that Edger's suit against them may go forward.
In June 2019, Edger, a mechanic in Huntsville, Alabama, received a call from a customer, who told him that his wife's car had broken down and asked him to come out to repair it. The car was in the parking lot of a local church, where the customer's wife worked. The customer told Edger he could pick up her keys at the church's front desk.
When he arrived at the church on June 10, a few days after the customer had called, Edger retrieved the keys from the church and began inspecting the car. According to the ruling, Edger says he believed something was wrong with the car's steering or tires and that he'd need to return with the necessary tools to fix the vehicle.
When he returned that evening, joined by his stepson, the church's security guard called 911, telling dispatchers "I have two Hispanic males, messing with an employee's car that was left on the lot."
Police arrived around 30 minutes later and began questioning Edger. Officer Krista McCabe asked Edger what he was doing; Edger replied that he was working on a customer's car.
"All right. Take a break for me real fast," McCabe said, according to body camera footage of the incident. "Do y'all have driver's license or IDs on you?"
"I ain't going to submit to no ID," Edger replied. "Listen, you call the lady right now. Listen I don't have time for this. I don't mean to be rude, or ugly, but—" he was cut off by McCabe, who insisted that he needed to provide an ID.
"I'm telling you that if you will call this lady that owns this car," Edger began to reply, when another officer, Cameron Perillat, grabbed Edger from behind and handcuffed him, saying "We don't have time for this."
Despite Edger repeatedly offering his driver's license upon being handcuffed, the officers arrested him anyway and charged him with "obstructing governmental operations" for failing to provide his ID. The charges were later dropped.
Edger filed a lawsuit, claiming that the officers violated his Fourth Amendment rights.
The officers argued that Edger had violated an Alabama law that requires individuals to tell officers their name, address, and "an explanation of his actions," if there is a reasonable suspicion of a crime. However, the statute does not compel individuals to show a diver's license or ID card.
The suit was originally dismissed when the District Court for the Northern District of Alabama granted the officers qualified immunity, a legal doctrine that protects government officials from civil rights lawsuits unless they violated a "clearly established" law. But last week, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit reversed that decision, holding that "the plain text of the Alabama statute is so clear that no reasonable officer could have believed they could arrest Mr. Edger for failing to produce his 'ID' or 'driver's license.'"
"The Alabama statute is clear. It lists only three things that the police may ask about," wrote Judge Charles R. Wilson in the court's unanimous opinion. "This is not an issue of 'magic words' that must be uttered. There is a difference between asking for specific information: 'What is your name? Where do you live?' and demanding a physical license or ID. The information contained in a driver's license goes beyond the information required to be revealed under" Alabama state law.
While Alabama police can require individuals to identify themselves in some circumstances, they're not entitled to get a formal ID card, and they're not entitled to get answers beyond the narrow questions the law requires.
"It has been clearly established for decades prior to Mr. Edger's arrest that the police are free to ask questions, and the public is free to ignore them," wrote Wilson. "Any legal obligation to speak to the police and answer their questions arises as a matter of state law."
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Officers must have been sick the day they taught you can't ask people for ID in Alabama, just their name, address and whatcha all doing here? Now taxpayers will again have to pony up some dough ray me.
Now taxpayers will again have to pony up some dough ray me.
Will they? The qualified immunity refers to the officer being directly sued.
I expect their union indemnifies them against legal costs and perhaps fines. Whether THAT is taxpayers' money is arguable.
Not the union. They are indemnified by their department (usually pursuant to a union contract), not by the union. So yes, it's taxpayer money.
"Achtung. Ihre Papiere, bitte."
Actually, nowadays, I suspect it should sound more like "Atención. Sus papeles, por favor." just to make sure it's understood.
Most states have laws requiring you to identify yourself when so requested by law enforcement. The "trick" is how they interpret the law, and how you must identify yourself; most states interpret it that you are "obstructing" in you refuse to provide a drivers license if you have one in your possession. While you don't yet have to have picture ID on you at all times (if your not driving or carrying), refusing to produce one if you have it will frustrate the cop, which will result in (1) handcuffs, and (2) charges. The charges may later be dismissed or dropped, but as they (the cops) say, "You may beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride downtown". Other people express it as, "the process is the punishment, that's if cop doesn't determine that you need to be "subdued" before being cuffed [stop resisting, longhair, whop, stop resisting whop whop whop].
Most states have laws requiring you to identify yourself when so requested by law enforcement.
Not quite. Most states (just barely most) have so-called "stop and identify" statutes, but even those generally only give LEOs authority to demand ID in certain situations, like when they have reasonable articulable suspicion of criminal activity on your part, and few others. And even then you're not always required to furnish physical ID, but only verbally provide your name and some other minimal info (except, for instance, in the case of a traffic stop). They're usually not a blank check to demand an ID card just because a cop feels like demanding one.
Nationally, you can practically count on one hand the number of cases where officers were successfully sued and not reimbursed by either their employer or their union. If paid by the employer, that goes to the taxpayers directly. If paid by the union, that gets rolled into the next round of negotiations and the taxpayer pays anyway.
I would really like it if a direct suit meant the offending official had to personally pay. Or even better, if they all had to carry malpractice insurance. Insurance would cover the first time but your suddenly-rising premiums would drive the bad actors out of the profession.
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And the city should pay for this. Any corporation is primarily liable for the misdeeds of its employees. Only government corporations can give themselves legal immunity from this responsibility. The city put the officer in the street with insufficient instruction on how to do his job. They are responsible.
So, you support the taxpayers getting fucked for the actions of the cop. Got it.
If the victim deserves compensation, they deserve compensation regardless of indemnification.
If you are upset about indemnification of the officers out of tax dollars, take that up with the city, PD, and the police union.
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You're missing the point, Pooneil. Holding corporations accountable is a workable control because corporations actually feel the pain of financial penalties. This gives them an incentive to properly train and supervise their employees.
Municipalities, on the other hand, get to foist their financial penalties entirely onto the taxpayers. Financial penalties make the victim "whole" (as much as money ever can) but do little to inhibit future abuses. We need a different control - something that imposes much more personal liability. I proposed above a shift to a malpractice insurance model but increased application of criminal penalties would work, too.
The cops should lose all indemification and be required to purchase insurance just like doctors, lawyers, accountants, teachers and drivers. An added bonus; No active insurance, then all arrests and traffic citations are invalid.
Most LEOs in the US get indemnification from their agency/department.
Even if an officer is sued in his individual capacity, the taxpayers pay any award.
And, after a quick look around, I can’t find the amount or motivation for the lawsuit.
AFAICT, QI is saving the taxpayers for the vagueries around police having to deal with retards in the public.
The Officer sat there in silence while the car slipped off the jack. He probably had half a mind that said “There’s a decent chance that if I don’t bring him in now, we’re going to be back out here in an hour with a bus pulling his or his kid’s body out from under this car.”
Is it the officer's job to protect members of the public from themselves? IDK, I know it's not my call to make. I do, however, get the impression that we'd get the same "Those dickheads." story (or the next one) if the cops had said "No foul." and rolled away from the scene only to return later after the Toyota Camry had decided of it's own accord to leap off the top of the jack onto someone.
You can *ask* for ID. You just can't demand it (if they're not driving.)
The part where the police can demand "an explanation of his actions" cannot possibly be constitutional. If the police have reasonable suspicion that you've committed a crime then you can invoke the 5th and not tell them.
You can *ask* for ID. You just can’t demand it (if they’re not driving.)
.
The part where the police can demand “an explanation of his actions” cannot possibly be constitutional. If the police have reasonable suspicion that you’ve committed a crime then you can invoke the 5th and not tell them.
That’s the sort of “I saw an episode of Law & Order once” legal expertise that gets so many people into trouble.
I have never met an officer that knows laws.
No they were not sick the day they went over that in class. They were sick the day they demanded this non-mandated handing over of this document when it was not legally required for the contact to do so.
Now had they been INSIDE their car/truck it would have changed the situation with respct to the one behind the wheel, except possibly for the fact they were on private property.
My state and the next one over have the exact same thing enshrined in state law. . Especially when on my bicycle I will steadfastly refuse to privide the demanded DL, but will then tell then I am prepared to identify myself if asked. When they do I do as well. So far the coppers have been aware of that right.
The only time I handed over my DLwhen on the bike was when two PPB dirty coppers tried to run me off the road with their umarkd cruiser, and U hollered loudly (no horn to honk....) and cut off the rightof way to keep from geting hit. They pulled a clown stop, I stod there astraddle my bike. When they demanded my DL I did surrender it, kniwing that if I had refused they'd have gone berko and who knows what would have happened. I was on a VERY tight schedule to get to an event I really did not want to miss, and knew if I refused to comply with this order, barked in a fit of anger, they'd have gone full felony stop, discovered ky concealed handgun (for which I was duly licensed in that state) and who knows where that would have gone.. jail over the weekend maybe, they were that nuts. I weighed the likelihood of their retaliatory actions, four ossifers in the unmarked cruiser all looiking for blood.. I refused, and handed over my DL. they ran a make on me, found it clean, ended their rant and tirade and I barely made it to my very special event. I would have made them madder than a gaggle of wet hens by standing the legal ground I KNEW was mine. I decided NOT to make this the hill upon which I would die. That city's coppers are known for theyr short0-fused anger, and brutality, and unfairness. I mostly stay out of that city but once in a while I have to. The bike is generally innocuous enough but these clowns were out for some excitement. Bullies will be bullies.
Police are perfectly free to ask you for an ID, and you are perfectly free to refuse to give it to them.
But if police have a valid reason to identify you and verify your identity, if you don't give them an ID, they may detain you to determine your identity.
Police can legally ask you for anything, including government issued ID. However, you are required by law only to provide your name, address, and purpose; you are not required by law to provide a government-issued ID.
Depending on whether you provide a government-issued ID, the cop can treat you differently. If you have a government-issued ID, the cop may let you go immediately because they can always track you down again if necessary. If you don't have a government-issued ID, they can't arrest you for failure to show your ID or obstruction of an investigation, but they can certainly detain you if the investigation warrants it.
These cops screwed up in the justification of their actions. If they had acted correctly, the actual outcome would have been very similar: if the mechanic didn't show a government-issued ID, he would have been detained. He would have been detained not for failure to show ID, but because the police needed to verify that his presence was legal.
“Any legal obligation…arises as a matter of state law” is wrong, morally, politically, legally. The “supreme law” is determined by the US Constitution. And the Constitution is subject to our rights. If the Constitution violates rights, the Constitution is VOID! We are the judge of when that is the case, not the govt. we created to protect our rights.
Most have forfeited their rights to authority. They can reclaim them.
But first, they have to stop worshiping "The Most Dangerous Superstition" by Larken Rose.
>>"the plain text of the Alabama statute is so clear no reasonable officer could have believed ...'"
Alabama jokes are too easy.
If they are so good at "plain text," maybe they should be consulted on signs for emergency exits at the House Office buildings in D.C. Ex-principal couldn't understand 3rd grade level language.
IMHO, 95% or more of the CongressSlimes of BOTH parties in the House AND the Senate should take the emergency exits at the House Office buildings AND at the Senate in D.C.!!! PRONTO!!!
(To best be replaced by REAL humans with REAL benevolence and REAL common sense!)
For a recently-published study of a FAKE supposed humanoid who has NEITHER REAL benevolence nor REAL common sense, see https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/02/politics/john-kelly-donald-trump-us-service-members-veterans/index.html
Alabama, where the family tree has no branches.
Alabama, where family reunions are the place to meet your next spouse.
exactly
Speaking of Alabama, why don't they change that rule in college football which allows a burly linemen to push the runner forward in short yardage situations?
Technically, that's a penalty ("illegal assistance"), but it's rarely called.
So, you can't just pick up some nimble little 5'-6", 150-lb running back and fling him over the line of scrimmage with one arm? Dang.
It used to be a penalty. Its not anymore.
It was outlawed in 1906, but they repealed the prohibition a few years ago except in cases of pulling or holding the runner.
What if it’s a passionately charged embrace?
This probably happens more often than folks realize. About a dozen years ago, here in CA, a bicyclist was stopped, and detained, for quite some time -- for riding a bicycle without a drivers license. Apparently the transgressing, evil, dangerous bicyclist decided not to pursue legal action...
Wasn't this already determined by the Supreme Court in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada?
Nothing new. I can easily believe that 90%+ of law enforcement agents at all levels are properly educated on the extent of their authority based on difference situations. Most go into the profession believing if they ask for it, you are required to provide it.
Because it is impossible for a cop to know all the laws it would make good sense when someone offers to give them the name of the owner to call to clear up the problem they would do it.
This is what we get when we apply the DIVERSITY requirement to hiring cops. these people must have the ability to think on their feet. with all the actual scumbags they encounter and the flack they get every day nothing less than someone with sainthood would endure. a college education isn't the most major factor for a cop to have.
The many of the liberal courses in underwater basket weaving doesn't apply in practical application. being able to read a person to tell if he is lying. having the keys to the car and tools needed to work on a car doesn't sound like a criminal act.
Government providing immunity offers the power trip that many with lower levels of learning use to exert their power. power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. what is needed is a good pay scale.
Making a living wage that makes attracting quality people easier. Making the requirements equal to the job performed. Don't hire a cop who can't perform physically to the task physically. don't put a 120 LB woman onto a job that she will need to take down a 240 LB man. it would require that she equalize the task by using her weapon. don't put a man on the job who can't talk to most of the people encountered fluently. give them the ability to access the basic laws used.
When an officer stops you stating what law you violated would validate the reason to ask for a license. offering the reason he was working on the car should have been followed first instead of using his powers of enforcement. again it comes down to the cop's ability to assess the situation.
having a reason to be there and the ability to validate it was ignored and thus took any immunity from the cop. so many problems have been created by demanding that standards are lowered to provide a way for the privileged class to get a job. it is time to stop the rights and privileges of people who could qualify if only the efforts were made.
The reasons that it is too hard or biased toward whites can also be disproven. as an electrical contractor I advertised for laborers. A young man applied or tried to. he couldn't fill out the job application form. he couldn't read or write. he had just graduated and had a diploma.
I hired him anyway and he was one of my best workers. could do any job I taught to him. My wife taught him to read and write in a month. Today he is a master electrician with his own company. Did I mention he is black?
because he could play football they pushed him into each grade so they wouldn't lose him as a player. It seems it was the school and government that failed him.
With government demands, a black man who is qualified is looked upon as lower class because everyone knows he has his job because the government gave it to him. Am I wrong?
I, Grampa
The rational procedure is the following:
(1) cop gets called by property owner observing suspects engaging in potentially illegal behavior
(2) cop asks subject to identify themselves with a government issued ID
(3) if suspects are able to identify themselves, they can be let go, since the cop can always find and charge them if criminal activity took place
(4) if suspects cannot identify themselves with a verifiable ID, the cop needs to detain them while determining whether actual criminal activity took place
I suspect that's the way it is supposed to work in Alabama. The cops here screwed up on how they did (2) and (3). Note that they are not required to do (2), so in the future, they may skip straight from (1) to (4) to avoid any disputes about IDs.
Because it is impossible for a cop to know all the laws it would make good sense when someone offers to give them the name of the owner to call to clear up the problem they would do it.
This is what we get when we apply the DIVERSITY requirement to hiring cops. these people must have the ability to think on their feet. with all the actual scumbags they encounter and the flack they get every day nothing less than someone with sainthood would endure. a college education isn't the most major factor for a cop to have.
The many of the liberal courses in underwater basket weaving doesn't apply in practical application. being able to read a person to tell if he is lying. having the keys to the car and tools needed to work on a car doesn't sound like a criminal act.
Government providing immunity offers the power trip that many with lower levels of learning use to exert their power. power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. what is needed is a good pay scale.
Making a living wage that makes attracting quality people easier. Making the requirements equal to the job performed. Don't hire a cop who can't perform physically to the task. don't put a 120 LB woman onto a job that she will need to take down a 240 LB man. it would require that she equalize the task by using her weapon. don't put a man on the job who can't talk to most of the people encountered fluently. give them the ability to access the basic laws used.
When an officer stops you stating what law you violated would validate the reason to ask for a license. offering the reason he was working on the car should have been followed first instead of using his powers of enforcement. again it comes down to the cop's ability to assess the situation.
having a reason to be there and the ability to validate it was ignored and thus took any immunity from the cop. so many problems have been created by demanding that standards are lowered to provide a way for the privileged class to get a job. it is time to stop the rights and privileges of people who could qualify if only the efforts were made.
The reasons that it is too hard or biased toward whites can also be disproven. as an electrical contractor I advertised for laborers. A young man applied or tried to. he couldn't fill out the job application form. he couldn't read or write. he had just graduated and had a diploma.
I hired him anyway and he was one of my best workers. could do any job I taught to him. My wife taught him to read and write in a month. Today he is a master electrician with his own company. Did I mention he is black?
because he could play football they pushed him into each grade so they wouldn't lose him as a player. It seems it was the school and government that failed him.
With government demands, a black man who is qualified is looked upon as lower class because everyone knows he has his job because the government gave it to him. Am I wrong?
I, Grampa
The police and prosecutors arrest and charge people with by twisting the meaning of the law, but then whine for qualified immunity when they clearly violate the specific words in the actual law.
While this is not a egregious of a violation as many other examples that happen, the violation occurred and there should be some sort of punishment.
That's what civil suits are for. And that's what's likely going to happen in this case.
That's why they are not given qualified immunity in this case.
However, the Alabama law really doesn't make much sense. Asking people for their name without any procedure for verifying the name is pointless: law abiding citizens are going to give a valid name, criminals are just going to lie. Either remove the requirement to identify yourself under these conditions altogether, or make identification mandatory.
Despite Edger repeatedly offering his driver's license upon being handcuffed, the officers arrested him anyway and charged him with "obstructing governmental operations" for failing to provide his ID. The charges were later dropped.
OK, so... total time between arrest made and charges dropped and total damages sought is what?
On June 10, around 2 p.m., Mr. Edger went to the Church
to pick up the keys and to inspect the Camry. He determined
something was wrong with either the car’s steering or its tires, and he concluded he would need to come back later with tools to fix the car.
...
At about 8:05 p.m., the security guard called 911 and told dispatch: “I have two Hispanic males, messing with an employee’s car that was left on the lot.” He also noted that
...
Officer McCabe then watched in silence as Mr. Edger attempted to jack the Camry up. Eventually the car slipped from the jack and slammed into the ground.
Holy Fuck how is *this* story not "too local"? Is this really what the #defundthepolice #endQI movement(s) has come to?
So you're okay with the country devolving into a "papers, please" police state so long as the police are efficient in their abuses of power?
The length of time is irrelevant. The police were wrong the instant they made the illegal demand and more wrong when they made an illegal arrest. The fact that others quickly corrected the illegality (by dropping charges) might mitigate the city's liability some but it does nothing to absolve the cops of their wrongdoing.
So you’re okay with the country devolving into a “papers, please” police state so long as the police are efficient in their abuses of power?
So are you okay with the country being taken over by actual Nazis as long as none of them are grammar Nazis or is the case even more retardedly refuting to what you assert in that from June 10th to Oct. 3rd (or 2nd) the most egregious case of our Nation’s descent into a Gestapo-esque, Checkpoint Charlie Police State you retards can find, nationwide, is cops mistakenly picking up two people knocking a car off a jack right around sunset?
My initial unspoken assessment of “Everyone is idiots.” apparently wasn’t expansive enough. Everyone, including Rossami, is idiots.
Edit: Get the fuck out with your "Papieren, Bitte." bullshit. The police weren't out looking for Jews or patrolling the wall between East Hunstville and West Huntsville, shit-for-brains, they were called because the suspects acted nothing like legitimate mechanics and *exactly* like criminals, if not utter morons, *before and after the police were summoned*.
A security guard called in a break-in and police responded; that is a valid function of police. They could likely have arrested the people immediately on suspicion of trespassing, given that a representative of the property owner claimed that they were not permitted on the property. There is nothing unreasonable about them investigating, detaining, and questioning the suspects. Police screwed up procedurally in this case and are held accountable, and that's a good thing; but that doesn't make the US a police state, quite the opposite.
Assholes like you throw around terms like “police state” and “papers please” without having any idea what they actually mean; you are the real threat to this country, because your ignorance and entitlement is going to bring about a real police state.
What if police weren't allowed to drop charges once filed? Clearly, there is some abuse going on where you file a bunch of BS against people and then drop it before it goes to trial. This feels like it should be a crime.
The Alabama law doesn't make much sense. If all cops can do is ask people for their name and address, why wouldn't they just lie if they have something to hide?
It seems to me lawmakers haven't thought through these interactions very well. Someone with risk and threat analysis experience needs to redesign these, with explicit civil liberties and law enforcement objectives and constraints in mind.
If all cops can do is ask people for their name and address, why wouldn’t they just lie if they have something to hide?
The local cops can't ask to see your license if they think you're trying to strip a car for parts but every gas station attendant and bartender in the state is *required* by law to check that your driver's license says you're over 18 to sell you tobacco or 21 for alcohol.
And we have Rossami crying "Help! Help! The State of AL is enforcing a police state! Oppression! Oppression!" because of the former, but not the latter.
I can't speak for Rossami, but I find it unreasonable that every restaurant and store employee is conscripted into helping enforce liquor laws.
You are always required to ensure that the business transactions you engage in are legal. Verifying that the partner in the transaction is above a certain age is the norm, rather than the exception, for transactions.
I find it unreasonable that every restaurant and store employee is conscripted into helping enforce liquor laws
While I can't speak to all jurisdictions, in the ones with which I'm familiar those employees are not conscripted into helping to enforce anything. They're simply being required to comply with the laws that are applicable to them. Again, in the jurisdictions I'm familiar with they're not required by law to ask anyone for identification. They're required to not sell alcohol to anyone below the minimum age the law prescribes for such a transaction. Asking for ID is a policy adopted by businesses for the purpose (mostly) of covering their own asses.
It's more complicated than that.
Local police can ask you for your license, but you are not required to show it. That's because we don't want to make carrying a license mandatory. But if there is a valid reason to determine your identity and you aren't giving them your ID for whatever reason, they can simply detain you to identify you and/or resolve the complaint. The cops in this case just screwed up with the procedure (and were rude to boot).
And yes, I agree that Rossami is an idiot.
The local cops can’t ask to see your license if they think you’re trying to strip a car for parts but every gas station attendant and bartender in the state is *required* by law to check that your driver’s license says you’re over 18 to sell you tobacco or 21 for alcohol.
I think that applies only to tobacco sales in AL. I could be wrong, but even if I am it doesn't matter. Surely it's not difficult to understand the difference between requiring presentation of proof of age for purchasing a product where the worst result is that you simply don't receive the product...vs an agent of the state demanding identification just because he feels like it under threat of arrest and possible criminal charges if you fail to comply.
If there is reasonable suspicion of a crime in progress, the "agent of the state" can detain you until the issue has been resolved. You can often shorten that detention by presenting an ID, but you are not required to.
In this case, given that a representative of a property owner reported a possible crime in progress on private property, the "agent of the state" had ample justification, and, in fact, an obligation, to detain the suspects and attempt to determine their identities.
DETAINING him at the scene wasn't what is getting the cops sued.
ARRESTING him and charging him with a bullshit crime is what's getting them sued.
Well, that's why I said that they would have been justified in detaining him.
What I objected to was the OP's claim that they "demanded identification just because they felt like it".
What I objected to was the OP’s claim that they “demanded identification just because they felt like it”.
Given that they had no legal authority, and therefor no obligation to demand physical identification in this case your objection is overruled.
If there is reasonable suspicion of a crime in progress, the “agent of the state” can detain you until the issue has been resolved. You can often shorten that detention by presenting an ID, but you are not required to.
.
In this case, given that a representative of a property owner reported a possible crime in progress on private property, the “agent of the state” had ample justification, and, in fact, an obligation, to detain the suspects and attempt to determine their identities.
OK. And…? Absolutely none of that contradicts anything I said.
It most certainly does contradict what you said:
It most certainly does contradict what you said:
No, it does not. In the case in question the responding LEOs had absolutely NO authority (and therefor no obligation) to demand identification (especially under penalty of arrest for failure to comply), as made quite clear by the appellate court’s analysis and decision.