Inside an Abusive Anti-Porn Camp for Teens
Is sending kids into the wilderness really the best way to keep them off Pornhub?

When Cameron was growing up in the 2010s, he was preoccupied with two things: that he was gay, and that there would be dire consequences if his parents and community found out. He lived in a small town in Utah, where over 90 percent of the residents are Mormon. "They are very strict about gender roles and sexuality," he says.
But Cameron didn't want to keep his secret to himself. In 2014, when he was 14, he came out to a close friend via text message. Soon after he sent the message, his parents went through his phone and discovered it. "They immediately confronted me about it," he says. "I was barely ready to tell one person. I was not ready to have that conversation with my parents."
That conversation was just the beginning. "There was probably about a year there where it was just absolutely brutal—where every day it was coming up around the dinner table," says Cameron, identified here by a pseudonym at his request. "I can remember my mom picking me up from school and being like, 'You realize that you're taking away everything that I thought I could ever have, right? You realize that because of this, I'm never going to have grandchildren from you.'"
His parents' disapproval was devastating enough, but Cameron says things got worse when the news spread throughout the community. Anonymous accounts started sending Cameron homophobic messages on Facebook. "All gays of the world should be strung up and drowned in the ocean," he recalls one of them saying. Even scarier were the random people who showed up at the family's doorstep to confront his mom.
"It was, honestly, really, really terrifying….Everybody around you hates you and essentially wants you purged from the earth," Cameron says. Around this time, he attempted suicide.
In spite of the harassment, he managed to go on a few dates with guys when he was 16. Nothing panned out, but his parents found out about it. Around the same time, they found some gay porn on his phone. They started locking him in his room at night, forcing him to pee in Gatorade bottles.
During this time his father told a co-worker who was in his late 20s about Cameron. Soon the man "started reaching out and being very schmoozy," Cameron said. "I was so alone. Everybody hated me….And here's this person." He was giving Cameron the attention he craved. They began having sexual encounters. Cameron says the relationship was consensual, yet "you're under the age of consent, and there's no way to justify pedophilia. But he was always just really, really nice."
Once again, his parents found out. They confiscated his phone, so he could no longer talk with the man or look at porn. They also pressed charges, and the man was sent to prison for a year. Cameron was sent to his own prison of sorts: STAR Guides Wilderness Therapy, which bills itself as "the country's premier wilderness treatment program for teens with technology, pornography and sexual addictions."
These camps say they can change teens' lives by helping them overcome severe mental and behavioral issues. STAR Guides claims the camp "provides a specialized 'unplugged' environment to reset and re-balance the physical, mental and spiritual health of youth…under the guidance of highly trained therapists and professionals, we provide a setting where youth can feel safe and supported when working through sensitive pornography or sexual issues along with trauma, free of fear, embarrassment or shame." And some parents and teens testify that STAR Guides was a positive experience. "You gave me my daughter back, and helped her how she needed," one parent said in an exit interview. A teen said the program was "extremely helpful and life-changing"; another said, "I found myself."
Others offer a much less rosy view of wilderness therapy. At STAR Guides and similar programs, according to Breaking Code Silence, a nonprofit that documents abuse in troubled teen programs, "the abuse we continuously uncover in this industry is beyond just a few programs. These abusive practices are reported across the board and are ingrained in the pervasive culture of the Troubled Teen Industry."
A lot of people look at porn. While statistics differ, most research shows that the majority of men (reported rates range from 69 percent to 98 percent) and at least a third of women (reported rates range from 33 percent to 85 percent) consume pornography. A 2020 study in The Journal of Sex Research found that 80 percent of 18- to 19-year-olds had watched porn. A 2013 study in the same journal found that 68 percent of teens had accidentally seen porn in the past year and 37 percent had looked at it on purpose.
Just as 18th century doctors blamed masturbation for everything from pimples to epilepsy, porn is now widely viewed as the culprit behind depression and social anxiety. At least 16 states have passed resolutions declaring porn a "public health crisis." The singer Billie Eilish claims that porn "destroyed her brain" when she was a kid.
But even if you accept the idea that porn is bad for developing brains, sending kids to the middle of nowhere—for weeks, months, or even years—with no running water, phones, internet access, or contact with the outside world (aside from an occasional handwritten letter) seems like a disproportionate reaction to watching videos of people having orgasms. Is wilderness camp really the best way to keep teens off Pornhub?
To answer this question, Reason spoke with six former attendees of STAR Guides, read years of Utah's inspection reports on the organization, scoured the r/troubledteens subreddit, and interviewed experts on such programs.
STAR Guides, which was founded in 2013, declares on its website that watching porn causes kids to contract sexually transmitted diseases, to molest other kids, and to devalue "monogamy, marriage and child rearing." It claims that "Internet pornography is rewiring the brains of teens." It warns that "When pornography addicts try to quit, they experience the same type of withdrawal symptoms as drug addicts." (STAR Guides did not reply to repeated requests for comment.)
Cameron's parents didn't tell him these details. They even left out the wilderness part of the camp. Cameron believes they were afraid if he heard the details he would attempt suicide.
"You better be grateful," he says his parents told him. "Because it cost a lot of money, and you're really damaging our family." They added: "We will not have a son that is sexually deviant." It's unclear what Cameron's parents expected, but offering conversion therapy is illegal in Utah: Therapists cannot use a treatment on a client under 18 "that seeks to change the sexual orientation or gender identity of a patient or client."
A few days later, his aunt drove him to an office building in St. George, Utah. "You have to say goodbye to your aunt now," he recalls a man telling him. The man had him change into a bright orange T-shirt and a pair of khakis, and then he was ushered into a parking lot and ordered into a truck with a few other teens. They drove about 20 miles deep into the Utah desert. "They opened the door and dumped us out," Cameron says. A group of teens from the program was waiting to meet them—some of whom, he later discovered, were prone to violence. STAR Guides hosts up to 40 kids at one time, in five different groups of no more than eight kids apiece.
"I saw more blood and fistfights and violence and threats and you know, all kinds of crazy shit while I was there, than my entire life combined," he later said. Reports from Utah's Department of Health and Human Services detail a teen at STAR Guides during this period pushing a staff member into a glass window, a teen attempting to grab a staff member's throat with both of his hands, and a teen throwing a metal can at another teen.
When Cameron went to bed that night, he was terrified. For the first five nights, he reports, "they do what's called tarping and alarming you." An alarm was placed on the zipper of the sleeping bag. If he tried to unzip it, the staff was notified. Then he would be rolled into a tarp, and a staff member would sleep on part of the tarp to ensure he didn't try to escape. "They're like, 'The reason that we do that is because we can't have you running away,'" he says. "That alone tells me they know that what they're doing is fucked up." All the STAR Guides teens Reason spoke with corroborate the "tarp and alarm" protocol, as do Utah Department of Human Services reports and posts on the subreddit r/troubledteens.
One former STAR Guides client alleges that a staff member wouldn't let her use the bathroom because they claimed she was being manipulative. She ended up urinating on herself and was then forbidden from changing clothes. "She told me I should 'sit in my mistakes for a while,' so I sat in my own urine for at minimum an hour," the girl wrote on Reddit.
According to reports from Utah's Department of Health and Human Services on troubled teen camps, kids have been held in miserable and abusive conditions. According to a department inspection report of STAR Guides from April 11, 2023, "multiple interviews disclosed that a staff member acted outside of the provider's policy and procedure and Utah Administrative Rule. The staff initiated a pain compliance technique on a client that was not an immediate danger to themselves or others; the client was being argumentative. The restraint resulted in undue physical discomfort and pain to the client. This was a repeat rule noncompliance."
An inspection from February 23, 2023, which was triggered by a complaint, found that "a staff member made comments that humiliated and degraded clients and another client was not treated with dignity" and "several critical incidents were not reported to the Office." Former attendees discussed in interviews being subjected to invasive questioning by counselors in thrall to highly dubious psychological ideas.
The juvenile justice system actively participates, sending sex offenders to complete the STAR Guides program alongside nonviolent teens (and sending taxpayer dollars to the programs' coffers as well), according to Cameron and others who attended the program. "We work closely with courts and probation departments for youth who are facing legal problems. We have worked with courts and probation departments from many parts of the country," reads STAR Guides' website.
The camp is operated on public lands owned by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), and STAR Guides must pay a $105 annual fee or "3 percent of adjusted gross receipts" plus site and use fees, whichever number is greater. In 2021, STAR Guides paid BLM $107,599.81. STAR Guides applies annually to use the land. In the most recent application from 2022, they answered the question "What hazards are inherent to the activity?" with "Uncooperative, resistant youth; attempts to abscond or run." They answered "How will they be managed?" by saying, "We have specific protocols to manage youth."
In a document Reason obtained via a freedom of information request, a concerned citizen emailed BLM officials on April 22, 2022, with the subject line, "filing a complaint of child abuse on BLM land." The email reads: "Star Guides Wilderness Therapy Program and Therapy Associates uses your land as a field for their treatment program for minors. Child abuse is being committed on this land. I have proof and have filed complaints with the state. I want to file a complaint with you so that no child continues to be hurt on this property. Please let me know how I go about bringing awareness to this situation." The email chain ends with a plan to print the email and "place it in Star Guide's file."
The Joint Commission, which provides STAR Guides with accreditation, did not respond to requests about complaints. And the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs, of which STAR Guides is a member, doesn't have a record of complaints either. It's unclear if STAR Guides has been sued; the Utah Department of Health and Human Services, the state organization that licenses STAR Guides and other camps, tells Reason: "Agencies under our licensure are not required to report lawsuits to our office."
The STAR Guides website connects use of pornography in teens with "sexting, cyber-sexual activity, voyeurism, compulsive cross-dressing to sexually experimentation [sic] with younger siblings or even having sexual desires towards children (pedophilia), animals or objects" and claims "Extensive research has revealed that boys exposed to porn from a young age are more likely to…demonstrate decreased academic performance…have decreased empathy for rape victims…pressure their partners to engage in porn-style sex (harmful, painful, degrading, aggressive, etc.)…have increased levels of erectile dysfunction," and more.
"Porn addiction" and "sex addiction" are controversial diagnoses, but most professionals who accept them would not diagnose adolescents with the ailments, "recognizing that adolescence is a time of intense hormonal development," says David J. Ley, author of The Myth of Sex Addiction. Ley, a psychologist, used to direct a residential wilderness program for adolescent sex offenders; today he is a harsh critic of the industry.
There isn't strong evidence that wilderness therapies stop such offenders from committing further crimes. A 2015 review published in the Journal of Adolescent and Family Health found "little empirical support" for "the effectiveness of [wilderness therapy] programs in reducing adolescent recidivism." Experts typically believe that rehabilitation for such offenders should happen closer to home. Treatment "in their community and with their family is what is going to be most effective," says Vic Wiener of the Juvenile Law Center.
According to Breaking Code Silence, the industry gets about $23 billion annually in public funds. (Neither the Department of Health and Human Services in Utah nor the camp itself will share how much STAR Guides receives.) Add parents' private payments, and you have a significant industry. A 2016 report from the University of Utah found that the state's youth wilderness therapy and residential treatment centers had generated $269 million in profits the previous year. The beneficiaries, says Vanessa Hughes, founder of Breaking Code Silence, range "from the staff member who's being paid, to the community that the facility is nestled in…to the local politicians who are funded by the program, to the larger programs that fund state and even national leaders."
Many of these programs have religious roots or overtones. While STAR Guides claims it is not religious, it is an offshoot of Mending The Armor, a Mormon anti-porn group owned by STAR Guides' organizational parent, Therapy Associates. Mending The Armor's website says their goal is to "assist youth in eliminating the use of pornography, masturbation and other unwanted sexual behaviors," and to do so it says they must believe in God and Jesus Christ. Mending The Armor did not respond to requests for comment.
Records on STAR Guides from Utah's Department of Health and Human Services show teens taken to the E.R. suffering from nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. One teen was diagnosed with an E. coli infection, another with a viral infection, another with mild dehydration. Another teen was taken to the hospital and diagnosed with "sponge liver" and constipation, and told to stay hydrated. All were returned to the camp. The records do not indicate the causes of these issues.
Cameron claims the teens in his program would hike for up to 10 miles a day. Each one initially carried a backpack made of tarp and rope, which held up to 40 pounds at a time, including two gallons of water; rations of oats, rice, lentils, flour, powdered milk, and occasionally cheese and peanut butter; a sleeping bag; and other equipment.
At night there were sessions around the campfire, where the team members would make the teens share stories of their sexual experiences. Many of the staffers weren't much older than the campers, and often had degrees in fields unrelated to social work or therapy. Once a week, licensed therapists would visit and talk with each camper for an hour. But for the first month, says Cameron, none of them talked with him, something he says his counselor later told him was part of "an isolation mechanism."
Cameron and the others had to fill out a "sexual history" workbook daily, listing their sexual experiences and answering questions like "How many times are you masturbating a day?" According to Cameron, the staff would then share information from "studies" that claimed "porn degenerates your brain and desensitizes you to human connection." Such claims are also posted on STAR Guides' website, which says that teen porn use can lead to "a decrease in ability to maintain focus and concentration," causing kids to do poorly in school. It also claims that teen porn addiction leads to "multiple failed relationships" in adulthood, because addicts "prefer pornographic images and the fantasy of sexual acts more than the real act itself."
After campers submitted their questionnaires, some of them would be driven to an office building to take a polygraph test. There a stranger hooked Cameron up to the machine, placed a camera in front of his face, and asked him questions from his sex workbook to see if the answers lined up with what he'd written.
"They would be like, 'How old were you when you hooked up with this person for the first time? And what kind of sex did you have with this person?' It was just very, very gross. They're quizzing you on your sex life to make sure that you've disclosed everything to them," he says. "It was the most violating and horrible feeling." The sessions, he said, made him feel "intrinsically wrong and bad for being this way." (Reason has obtained copies of these workbooks and other documents, which corroborate Cameron's claims about the quizzes and polygraphs.)
Utah Department of Health and Human Services reports detail a teen at STAR Guides grabbing their genitals and pulling down their pants in front of the group. Cameron says he witnessed similar behavior. After the "tarping and alarming" ended, Cameron's nights were still scary. "I would be laying down at night to go to sleep, and then some really, really, really creepy guy that was in the program with me would start humping on my sleeping bag and jerking off in a sleeping bag next to me. There's nothing that I could do about it," he says. The staff and teens called this "Wiggy Whacking." When Cameron complained about the other camper's behavior, the staff members told him, "They're not actually touching you, right? It's fine." It was a strange response from people working for STAR Guides, an organization devoted to preventing teen masturbation and other sexual behavior. He responded, "No, it's not fine. I can hear them fucking breathing on my neck and jerking off." Cameron calls it "the most sexually nonconsenting experience I've ever had in my life." Multiple STAR Guides alumni related similar experiences with "Wicky Whacking" in a group chat obtained by Reason.
Cameron was miserable. "There was not a single day that went by that I was not thinking about ways to kill myself," he remembers. He was not alone. A report from the Department of Health and Human Services details the attempted suicide of a teen by hanging in the latrine in 2019. "Once the cord was removed [the student] immediately gasped and opened his eyes," the report said. A staff member "checked his vitals and everything checked out as normal."
Cameron felt that he had a choice: leave the world altogether, or just leave STAR Guides. Fortunately he chose the latter, but he knew that this meant he'd have to claim to be something he was not. After years of being shamed for his sexuality, he now would have to confess to another supposed sin: He would have to say he was addicted to pornography.
"I just wanted to get out. I would do whatever it took. I would say whatever I had to, checking the boxes saying 'I'm a porn addict' and being like, I'm not though, inside….If you say, 'No, I'm not a porn addict,' you don't progress. And you're 16. So it's going to be another two years that you're in the program before you turn 18."
Ricquelle sits amid sparse foliage as inspirational piano music plays. "I just lost any purpose and any will to live," she says matter-of-factly to the camera in a STAR Guides promotional video. Soon her parents come on screen, lounging on a couch, dad in a Brigham Young University polo. "I knew stuff was going on, but I was beyond the point of being able to help her," says mom. What "stuff" her daughter was doing is never clarified.
The video cuts to Ricquelle in the desert. As we watch a towheaded toddler splashing through a fountain, she tells us that STAR Guides gave her "the chance to get married to an amazing man and have two very beautiful children and be a good mom to them." In another video, the anti-porn message is more explicit. It shows STAR Guides co-founder Kena Frey, a psychotherapist, saying: "People think that pornography addiction and sexually compulsive behaviors are primarily an issue that boys or young men go through, where it is just as prevalent in younger women." Frey did not respond to requests for comment.
Kelly (another pseudonym) was sent to STAR Guides for mood swings, attempted suicide, being in an abusive relationship, and sexually acting out with a girl at a previous camp. She was taking three different psychiatric medications, but she says they weren't helping. She also watched porn occasionally, but it was not a huge part of her life. "I looked at [porn] maybe once or twice a week for five minutes, and I scored like 60 out of 100 on [the porn addiction test]. And they're like, 'Ah, you've got a pornography addiction.' I was like, 'No, no, I don't. I'm just 16,'" she says.
Kelly nonetheless had to create a plan for reducing her porn watching. She soon learned that "they will not approve your porn treatment plan unless you agree that you're not going to watch porn." According to Kelly, if any teens said they were sexually active or interested in sex, staff members would claim that this indicated a porn or sex addiction. Kelly says STAR Guides told her that watching about 10 minutes of porn a week is dangerous and a sign of addiction.
There is no evidence that watching pornography should be "viewed as an addiction," says neuroscientist Nicole Prause. The American Psychological Association agrees. In 2016, the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists released a statement saying that "porn addiction" and "sex addiction" should not be classified as mental health disorders at all. When Ley and Prause reviewed the porn addiction literature in 2014 and published their findings in Current Sexual Health Reports, they found no clear definition of porn addiction.
"If you base a treatment off of a model that's inaccurate, you risk doing harm," Prause says. "And we believe that's exactly what's happening in the case of these 'nofap' [anti-masturbation] approaches."
Studies are mixed, but the consensus seems to be that porn itself does not cause sexual violence. If anything, it's associated with the opposite: "The more pornography that circulates in a society, and the easier it is to access and consume, the lower is the reported incidence of most categories of sexual offending, with a particularly marked decline since the 1980s," the sociologist Brian McNair concluded in a 2014 study published in Porn Studies. "Societies where women are most likely to be sexually assaulted and disadvantaged across the range of indicators (human rights, political rights, workforce participation and economic independence, etc.) are those in which pornography and sexual culture in general are either banned or tightly restricted."
Porn may have some negative effects. When people who are morally opposed to it watch it anyway, that can cause immense distress, according to a 2018 article in Archives of Sexual Behavior. Teens who watch porn may have stronger beliefs in gender stereotypes and more permissive sexual attitudes, according to a 2016 paper published in The Journal of Sex Research (though this study showed only a correlation and did not claim causation). A 2021 study in Health Communication found that "watching porn more often leads to more exposure to depictions of choking in porn, which predicts a higher likelihood of choking partners through the beliefs that sexual choking is safe, pleasurable, and does not require consent." Such misconceptions could be corrected in a porn literacy program, which STAR Guides decidedly is not.
STAR Guides participants say they had to pass through three phases. In phase one, they had to learn how to make a fire three ways, create a backpack out of a tarp, and discuss their masturbation habits. Phases two and three involved plant and constellation identification, fire making (again), and specific exercises detailing sexual practices, according to the program's workbook and interviews with participants. During excursions, teens sometimes collected their own water from troughs filled with worms, spiders, and insects, say Cameron and other kids who attended the camp. Counselors would sanitize the water with eight drops of bleach per gallon, making it taste like pool water. While this is not unsafe—it is fairly standard behavior for people on voluntary hikes or camping trips—it is horrifying to kids who don't have any other choice.
The teens had to agree that they were porn or sex addicts to get through the phases. They also had to convince their counselors and peers they had made significant progress. "If you weren't being open enough, you would not get it signed off," Kelly says. "When I was trying to talk about my sexual fantasies, they kept asking for specifics on sexual acts."
"You would have to share with the group how often you masturbate and what you think about when you masturbate, and your plan to stop masturbating," Kelly says. When Kelly told her therapist she planned on masturbating only every few days, her therapist replied that masturbation will make her desire sex, so she should never do it at all. "That's highly unrealistic, but whatever," Kelly thought to herself—and then checked the box saying she'd never masturbate, so she could proceed to the next phase.
In keeping with the theme of sex being dangerous, STAR Guides did not allow any touching—even nonsexual touching. This is standard in these types of camps. "They're trying to thwart sexual exploration between kids," says Hughes of Breaking Code Silence.
Thanks to the no-touching policy, Kelly reports that she wasn't allowed to get a hug when she learned her grandfather had died. (She also says she wasn't allowed to call her parents or fly home.) "I got really upset. And I hit a rock on my head. And then they put me on a 'tarp island'" for a week, she says. "You have to sit on a square on the tarp. And if you step off the tarp, you get thrown in the dirt. They will immediately restrain you." She was also put on "tarp and alarm" for three weeks.
Despite the no-touching rule, sexual activity at STAR Guides did happen, and some of it appears to have been nonconsensual. While she was at STAR Guides, Kelly says, a 13-year-old camper was sexually assaulted by a 17-year-old. Documents from Utah's Department of Health and Human Services verify Kelly's claim. On March 14, 2020, a "client sexual misconduct" occurred, the report reads. "Both clients have been engaging in sexual touching and digital penetration on each other. A 17 year old girl has done these things to a thirteen year old girl and a 13 year old girl has done these things to a 17 year old girl," according to the STAR Guides incident report. "Discovery and information gathering occurred on 3-17-20." The same document shows "inappropriate sexual contact" between a 17- and an 18-year-old.
Last year—thanks partly to lobbying by celebrity and activist Paris Hilton, who was sent to a wilderness therapy camp by her parents—Utah passed a law saying that youth treatment centers "may not use a cruel, severe, unusual, or unnecessary practice on a child," including strip searches, restraints, and "discipline or punishment that is intended to frighten or humiliate." In the most recent report on STAR Guides, from February 10, 2022, Utah's state inspector wrote about a staff member who "restrained [a teen] and bent her wrist." The inspector also learned that STAR Guides was struggling to find staff because "some staff have left because they don't feel safe now that they are not allowed to use pain compliance."
Despite such stories, records requests reveal that STAR Guides has always passed its inspections from the Utah Department of Human Services Office of Licensing.
While STAR Guides was obsessed with sex, Kelly reports that it had much less concern with genital health. "I had so many UTIs….I had vaginal welts," she says. "I never showered the entire time I was there….You were constantly coated in dirt." She was given seven baby wipes a week to clean herself. Campers received only two clean pairs of underwear a week, plus a daily pantyliner. They also got just one weekly roll of toilet paper, according to multiple interviews, and "the diet you're on makes you poop multiple times a day. So if you run out of toilet paper, you have to wipe with rocks."
Kelly told a staff member during a group meeting: "I have a UTI. I need cranberry pills." According to Kelly, the staff member responded, "You must be masturbating." When Kelly insisted that she wasn't, the staffer reportedly replied: "You're lying. Everyone here masturbates." (Kelly tells me she never masturbated during the program, because her "hands were disgusting" and her depression wiped out her sex drive.)
Makenna Atkins, another teen who went to STAR Guides, is reading to me from the pornography addiction test she saved from her time at the program: "Do you become restless, moody or irritated when you attempt to cut down or stop viewing porn? Do you find yourself preoccupied with pornographic thoughts or images more than you would like?" Here Atkins interjects: "You're a teenager. That's literally your entire brain. You get turned on by, like, shoulders."
Atkins laughs as she reads me another question: "Do you erase your history to uncover tracks or take steps to hide your pornography use to avoid being caught?" She pauses and then exclaims: "They made safe search for a reason!"
Yet Atkins wasn't really sent to the desert for her porn use. Her road to STAR Guides began in tragedy. When she was 15, her mother died of breast cancer. Six months later, she "took a shit-ton of ibuprofen and drank a bottle of wine." She ended up in the ICU. The next morning she was transferred to a psych ward, where she saw her girlfriend. "We both stare at each other for a sec. And she just goes, 'What the fuck did you do?' And I was like, 'I tried to off myself.' And she's like, 'I was thinking about it, so my mom committed me.' And we're like, 'Sweet, we can hook up in the psych ward.'"
Five days after Atkins was admitted to the facility, a social worker told her that her father was going to send her to STAR Guides. "And I already know everything about this program," she says, because of older siblings who had been through the program. "So I'm seeing the psychological damage of this….I was like, 'Dude, this is for offenders,'" she says.
The social worker decided that STAR Guides wasn't the right place for Atkins because it wasn't intended for people with psychiatric issues. Her father told the social worker that he wasn't going to send her there, and she released Atkins from the ward. A few days later, she recalls, "I wake up at two in the morning to two very large women [not STAR Guides employees] standing over me going, 'You can do this the easy way or the hard way.'…I knew that if I attack them, it's charges on me."
The duo dragged Atkins out of the house as she screamed and cried. They drove her to the airport two hours away. But, she says, they ended up "not being assholes. They were like, 'Hey, we have to take you here. We don't really know what the situation is. And we don't want to….This is our job.'"
They flew with her from Michigan to Utah. She arrived November 23, 2018, and was strip-searched before being taken to the camp. "The first week and a half I was there, I was so insanely suicidal," she says.
Atkins showed me a picture of herself at the camp. She looked completely different than the pale, straight-haired young woman on Zoom. Her skin was much darker. ("I thought I was tan. It was all dirt," she says.) Her hair was dry and brittle and breaking off at the ends. She asked her therapist if she could shave it off. "No," her therapist replied. "Girls aren't supposed to have short hair."
Once during a group therapy session, she recalls, another teen shared a story about being raped by her brother when she was 9. A counselor then asked the girl if she thought any of what happened was her fault. "All of the girls in the group just sat there and stared at him in complete and utter shock," Atkins says.
Her therapist, STAR Guides co-founder Frey, "asked me if I thought I was gay because of shit that happened when I was younger because of sexual trauma," Atkins says. "She made me come out to my dad….She was like, 'You need to be fully honest with your parent to ever build a relationship with them,' and I was like, 'He's straight-up the most homophobic person ever.' But OK, I wrote a little letter to him."
He responded with a letter saying her girlfriend had manipulated her into being gay. Being a lesbian, he declared, was a way to "distract" herself from her mother's death with "superficial friendships instead of real loving familial relationships."Atkins "graduated" from STAR Guides after more than five months. "I was super-brainwashed. I was convinced sex was a super-bad thing. And it's taken me quite a long time to get out of that and deal with a lot of repressed shit," she says. "I thought I was asexual. I was not."

STAR Guides had a lasting impact on the attendees that Reason spoke with—just not the impact the program promises. Kelly got out after six and a half months. "I literally can't focus on my classes sometimes because of my PTSD," she says. She's now 19 and paying for her own therapy. She's in college, where she's studying to be a nurse and minoring in neuroscience.
While STAR Guides claims that pornography addiction makes kids interested in "more extreme pornography like sadomasochism or fetishized content," Atkins believes that STAR Guides itself led her to BDSM. "Kink has been the most helpful in dealing with all of this…because it's [about] building trust," she says. According to Hughes, this is common among survivors of wilderness therapy programs: Because the culture of kink involves very strict rules about consent, it lets practitioners feel like they're in control.
Cameron spent nearly three months at STAR Guides. He now lives in Salt Lake City and is an active member of the leather community, a tight-knit group of gay men who wear leather fetish gear. "There's a lot of sex positivity [in the leather community]," he says. "I think maybe that's what drew me to it, because that's something that I never had. Our community is kind of like this big family. We all just kind of look out for each other and support each other."
His parents won't be snooping through his phones together anytime soon either: They divorced after his mom discovered his dad was having an affair with her best friend, he said. "Who's the sexual deviant one now?" Cameron laughs.
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Shouldn't Reason disclose it's funded by a pornographer? Or does he no longer donate and you're relying exclusively on Fred Koch's son?
#Transparency
Anyway.
Trump dead-enders are the stupidest people on the planet, Exhibit #418
Do campaign donations go up or down when Trump fights "too hard" against a weaponized justice system? Trump isn't trying to avoid jail (only). He's trying to take down a corrupt system. I like his odds. If he gets elected, it's karma time.
Trying to take down a corrupt system. Trying to "drain the swamp" you might say.
But wait! He was already President for 4 years and by his own admission failed so spectacularly that "the swamp" cheated him out of reelection right under his nose!
The GOP looks back on the atrocious Dubya years and asks "What were we thinking?". The same is already being said about the many failures of Donnie. The Trump cultists will be the last to see it.
Trumpism is like an infection that won't heal.
The GOP looks back on the atrocious Dubya years and asks “What were we thinking?”
And the early 2000s neocons who still think the Iraq War was a great idea? They support your party now. 🙂
#InsertBulwarkLink
Well, It is a low bar but Obama and Biden total 10 years with no new wars.
And only fucking idiots believe that the war between Ukraine and Russia is a "US war".
And my party is the Gridlock Party and I am proud of it. We never pass new spending bills.
Umm… Obama entered 3 countries with armed forces such as Syria.
He also had a penchant for droning American citizens.
Here is alt right newspaper LA Times.
https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-pol-obama-at-war/
You continue to lie about gridlock party as you campaigned here for every Democrat including Fetterman.
"Obama and Biden total 10 years with no new wars"
Operation Ocean Shield 2009 - 2016
International Intervention in Libya 2011
Operation Observant Compass 2011 - 2017
American Led Intervention in Iraq 2014 -
American Led Intervention in Syria 2014 -
Yemeni Civil War 2015 -
American Intervention in Libya 2015 -
The most offensive thing about your gaslighting, Shrike, is how lazy it is.
It isnt lazy. It is outright dishonesty to defend the left and push their lies.
It's still lazy.
Isn't lazy a left wing virtue? They did tell us that striving and achievement are white male privilege.
Those aren't wars, you moron.
I know you are trying to equate anti-Iraq War Obama with the Bushpig's fiascos.
Obama did STAY in Afghanistan but so did Donnie.
He even increased troops in Iraq dumdum.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Afghanistan-War/U-S-troop-surge-and-end-of-U-S-combat-mission
But I forget. Words mean what democrats want then to mean. Nothing more.
Easier to tell lies that way.
He even increased troops in Iraq dumdum.
No, Obama got us OUT of Iraq.
You probably meant Afghanistan unless you are far more stupid than we thought anyway.
And right back in three years later.
You really think that nobody else can remember past the last news cycle, huh?
Obama liked to kill people with drones.
To Trump's credit, had he stayed in the White House we would have left Afghanistan, and likely in a less half-hazard way.
Neither Trump nor Biden would have had the skill or interest to manage or oversee those people doing the heavy lifting of getting us out of Afghanistan. They are both pols who only give a damn about where the camera is for their glory seeking. They are not even wonks.
It's a big problem in our 'job interview skills' for Prez elections.
We know that the job involves CinC skills. We know that the candidate has absolutely zero relative experience. We know that no candidate sweats the details like say understanding our 20 years of failure as outlined in the OIG and in so doing knows how to ask the right questions of precisely those people whose experience is 20 years of failure. And we select them for the job anyway.
Trump’s plan had us leaving Afghanistan before fighting season, and didn’t include the logistical nightmare of getting out of the airport in Kabul amid a riot and breaking the treaty with the Taliban.
Biden changed the deal and the timeline because the puppet masters controlling him thought the propaganda advantage of leaving Afghanistan on 9/11 outweighed breaking the deal with the Taliban. They were wrong, and people died. And you excuse it because you’re a terrible person.
These aren’t hindsight criticisms. Logistics and strategy are real things. As is your TDS. Now shove a needle with 46 doses of the vax in your neck, you authoritarian monster.
Trump’s plan had us leaving Afghanistan before fighting season,
Trump had no plan at all beyond simply negotiating the deal with the Taliban. Trump has never had a plan for anything beyond simply having the PR ‘stunt’ for the cameras. That’s how he ran his business. He was NEVER a manager of anything.
Yes logistics is a real thing and it is precisely the sort of detail that requires EXTENSIVE planning and organization. You don’t withdraw an amry simply by ordering it done. There was no plan. It was not ‘in process’ before Nov 2020. There was nothing at all. The Pentagon itself was still arguing about WHETHER they were going to withdraw in Mar 2021. If they didn’t know about this plan to withdraw themselves from Afghanistan, then there was none.
Get that through your head you goddamn cultist. Obviously you’ve never managed a goddamn thing in your work life
@JFree
Trump had no plan at all beyond simply negotiating the deal with the Taliban. Trump has never had a plan for anything beyond simply having the PR ‘stunt’ for the cameras. That’s how he ran his business. He was NEVER a manager of anything.
https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/02.29.20-US-Afghanistan-Joint-Declaration.pdf
Could you be any more dishonest? This was a perfectly sound plan and Biden decided to break the agreement. There's no twisting it.
Repent of your lies.
Sending our military into a country to blow up shit and kill people isn’t war now?
There’s no lie you won’t tell for Democrats.
"Those aren’t wars, you moron."
Those are all most definitely wars, you lying fascist fuck, by every single metric and measure.
Point to any single example I gave and tell me how it wasn't a war.
You're so fucking lazy in your dishonesty. You think you can just wave your hand and say "Deploying troops and bombing Syria and Libya isn't a war war", and everyone will just shrug and say "sounds legit".
Why they still employ you is beyond me.
Even the LA Times called shrike liar lol. Why i posted that article.
All we need to know about shrike is that he posted dark web links to underage porn!
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of civilians blown to bits or disfigured for life via US bombs in these "peace actions"
Maybe from Bush to Clinton to Bush to Obama...they are all war criminals.
sorry "police action" ...long day..
Obama had multiple wars. Biden is trying to enter us into the war in Ukraine which is none of our concern.
WTF are you talking about?
"The GOP looks back on the atrocious Dubya years and asks “What were we thinking?”. The same is already being said about the many failures of Donnie. The Trump cultists will be the last to see it."
Imagine a gaslighting neocon fifty-center so inept that he tries to insinuate MAGA and Trump were ever big Bush administration and Iraq War fans.
Trump literally campaigned on being anti-Iraq war in the 2016 primaries, but this inept and lazy shill is trying to tell us otherwise.
I told ya so!!!!
The Sad Saga of the Stolen Erections
And lo, it came to pass, that Tim the Enchanter blew upon His Magic Flute, and led me to a secret cave (the Cave of Caerbannog), whereupon mystic runes carved into the very living rock foretold of a day to come.
This sad, sad day has now manifested itself, just as foretold. The Promised One had been delivered to us, and was to fertilize His Queen, Stormy Daniels, in an amazing scene; a glaze of Vaseline. Their offspring were to be called Strumpets… Which is a concatenation of Stormy and Trump. They were to number in the millions… About 332 million; enough for all residents of the USA to be issued one Strumpet per each resident, to sit on his or her right shoulder, and make sure that each resident stayed WAAAY Righteous. Each Strumpet was to progressively exert more and more Righteousness Control over each resident, by covering them in Strumpet Vines.
Sad to say, the Bad Bider-Grunch stole Trumpsmas AND Trump’s Erections! The stolen erections prevented the birth of the 332 million Strumpets, in the world’s WORST mass murder (genocide) so far! Even Saint Babbitt could NOT save the Strumpets!
This is the Sad Tale of the Demise of the USA!
That's the shortest heckler's veto you've posted in a long time.
Shrike is so stupid and such a demshill that he’s literally trying to tie Trump to the neocon wing as if Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton weren’t their hand picked politicians.
Worst campaign in American political history, but Never Back Down Sandra.
You're doing great.
Again, you're just going through the motions with this one.
Bring the intensity! Tell us how you support Trump precisely because he's guaranteed to lose to Dementia Joe again - "provoking necessary annihilation of the system and revolution of the people (even if that’s merely secession)."
Will we have to convert our dollars to a new currency after the US ceases to exist?
#ExcitingTimes
You repeat the same SuperPAC talking points here every day, and you're talking about someone else just going through the motions?
LOL
The DC empire will either go down easily or hard..Trump didn't show the ability to downsize the empire..even if he gets elected he will appoint the same morons like John Bolton.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/mypillow-guy-mike-lindell-punts-timeline-for-trump-retaking-power-as-august-conspiracy-theories-get-wackier
MyPillow Guy Punts Timeline for Trump Retaking Power as Conspiracy Theories Get Wackier
https://www.salon.com/2021/08/22/mike-lindell-still-in-trumps-good-graces-has-new-prediction-reinstatement-by-new-years/
The Lord Trump didn’t return to us as scheduled, but the Second Coming is now re-scheduled. You can TRUST us THIS time, for sure!
The Lord Trump DID return to us faithful ones, but He did it in an invisible way! Hold strong in your Faith in Him!
The Lord Trump didn’t return to us yet, this is true! It only did NOT happen because YOU were not faithful enough, and didn’t send Him enough donations!
The Lord Trump didn’t return to us yet, but He DID miraculously protect us all from the VERY worst forces of Evil, which is Der BidenFuhrer! Hold fast in your Faith… Lord Trump will come back VERY soon now! Especially if you send Him more money!
The Lord Trump moves in Mysterious Ways! All will be revealed SOON! Especially if you have Enough Faith to DONATE till it HURTS!
https://twitter.com/ElectionLegal/status/1687833090264010753?t=4tAATMoegGkJ6IWz0bgtkg&s=19
Ron DeSantis: "We're gonna go after these third world countries that have become hotbeds of antisemitism"
[Video]
OK, this one is better. It captures the Trump cultists' complete lack of self-awareness. After all, pro-Israel Jewish billionaire Sheldon Adelson was one of Trump's biggest donors. So it's in character to attack DeSantis for being a puppet of "Big Zionism."
Would have given an A+ if you also incorporated the laughable Trump dead-ender lie that "George Soros supports DeSantis." Maybe next time? 🙂
Nardz needs more tweets from corsair21 that expresses his very deep concerns about the Jews. I am sure that will persuade voters to support Trump.
Ummmmmm, jeff? You're Reason's leading defender of critical race theory and its obsession with WHITE PRIVILEGE and WHITE SUPREMACY.
If it's valid social critique to point out white wealth and white overrepresentation, then it's fair game to do the same for Jews.
#ButIDoubtYouWantPublicSchoolsDoingTheLatter
Hey, asshole. Let's set the record straight.
I think that critical race theory - the ACTUAL theory, the one that is taught in law schools - has a lot of kooky ideas and is rather dumb.
I also think that there are a lot of observable phenomena - for example, why there are so many Black men in prison, or why the mortality rate for pregnant Black women is so high - that are difficult to explain without taking race into account on some level.
And I think that there are a bunch of racial demagogues who are all too willing to come up with simplistic 'answers' that don't really answer the questions. You have the racial progressives on the left who want to blame everything on white racism. And then you have the right-wingers who want to pretend that individuals operate completely independently of a larger society and that every interaction occurs in a vacuum divorced from all history and society.
And I think we have gotten to a point where the cultural warriors on the right have become so frustrated with the discussion that they have taken to using the power of the state to suppress discussion that they don't want to see occurring in this area in the schools and universities that they have control over. And that is what I absolutely object to.
Hope that clears things up for you, asshole.
In case you haven’t figured it out, nobody cares about what you say you think. They care about what they say you think.
Oh I know. I am clearing it up for everyone else.
Anyone with a minutia of reading comprehension skills already knows.
"Anyone with a minutia of reading comprehension skills already knows."
Chuckle
I take it you missed yesterday with jeff lying about what ML stated despite ML citing the threads and posts.
In case you haven't figured it out you and Jeff constantly lie about your past statements and then lie about those conversations and double down even when links are given.
You know what. I find this entire discussion between Jeff and sarc hilarious as they applaud Trump being arrested for not what he said but for what Jack Smith stated he believed.
I mean it was just yesterday that Jeff repeated the good fine people lie.
Jeff and sarc are literally applauding government deciding what someone believes while crying that people here post their past statements they deny the made. Lol.
Here, Jesse is plainly demonstrating that he hasn't read the indictment, doesn't care what it says, and is just going to repeat the Trump-approved right-wing defense that Trump is just being prosecuted for speech.
https://reason.com/2023/08/05/controlling-your-uncontrollable-addiction-to-tech/?comments=true#comment-10185432
Still in a foul mood over that recent Supreme Court ruling on racial preferences, huh? 🙁
"White privilege" if fully segmented based on income/demographics/ethnicity or "religion" would likely show some groups are more overrepresented than others quite a bit. If this is the way the left wants to go, the wealthy lefties in the media/academia and the democratic party might be shocked at how the "minorities" start to point to them as the problem.
After all, pro-Israel Jewish billionaire Sheldon Adelson was one of Trump’s biggest donors.
Poor old Sheldon died but never got his precious war with Iran. But Donnie tried to help out by green-lighting the Iranian nuclear program.
Now tell everyone what you think Trump did to "green-light the Iranian nuclear program", and why you think the Iranians weren't still working brazenly and openly on the program before that.
Shrike will ignore the numerous violations of the Iran Deal and even the global inspection agencies admitting Iran never stopped their nuclear work.
TDS means never having to say you're sorry for anything you think opposes Trump.
Why shouldn't Iran have nukes? Israel has them. Pak/India and others have them. Maybe they shouldn't but give a rational explanation which puts American security first..
All US politicians are loyal to Israel.
Not all US politicians talk about waging a worldwide crusade against "antisemitism" or sign state hate speech laws while in Israel.
Neocon Ron is a prototypical politician. Wears the uniform (jeans+vest combo), Ivy league lawyer, paid by taxpayers his entire career, jumps from Rep to governor to presidential candidate in just a decade, 90% funded by establishment donors, and talks about good governance.
But he is atypical in one way- several inches short of 6 feet tall.
Sandra, didn't you do #418 last week? I think we may have lost the count.
I generate the numbers for this and "Parody is obsolete" by thinking of a year in the past century, then a major sports franchise, then finding a pretty good (but typically not the best) player, then looking at total career stats.
Today's 418 is the number of times David Eckstein struck out in his career. Maybe it's also the career slugging percentage of another player I looked up a week ago.
#CannotRuleOutDuplicates
World Series MVP and all-around decent fellow.
The fact you put so much thought behind such a detail is why OBL was a great schtick.
When you find yourself responding to an article about conversion therapy for gay kids with comments about President Trump, you might have an unhealthy obsession. Like, 100% odds.
So it was a harder job than he thought. Is your response that nobody should try to fix it? I do hope you seek the help you desperately need.
Ctrl+f 'reddit' 3 results.
Offense more aimed at Reason than at you (they're initiating the conversation, you're responding; they're nominally journalists, you're just a commenter... ...) but it kinda applies both ways (just a tad): Can we get an actual reporter to report actual facts about actual crimes or misdeeds rather than assembling a vague collection of Munchausen-reinforcing confabulations?
This "not-a-community, they don't have membership cards" is just as prone to complete fabrication and pointless piling hysteria on as any that came before (1-in-4 women, Jussie Smollet, #MeToo, 'Beer Summit', Gay People Kicked out of ORs) it or that it has leapfrogged over. Simply amplifying and echoing the signal isn't well-reasoned, libertarian, really beneficial to anyone, or without it's own anti-libertarian notions of harm (beginning with fraud and pushing upwards to tyranny). I've got no doubt that serious shit has happened at STAR Camps, but the only evidence I find of a no-shit crime in this entire post is maybe a statutory rape.
The article feels like it was hammered out by an adderall-fueled, D+ journalism student Zoomer at 2 a.m. with an 8 a.m. deadline.
Or from off-brand Chat AI.
Or on-brand as the case may be.
I don't know what is most disturbing: The article itself, or the comments which have decided to make this a pissing contest about which political party is more disingenuous.
I'm going to comment about the article, and specifically, the fucked up role religion is allowed to play in our society. Looking at masturbation and gender questioning among über-hormonal teenagers as anything but absolutely normal and something that is to be expected as anything but that is a problem. Psychiatrists know that part of growing up is being allowed to grow up. It's how humans have survived and it is how (not whether) we have evolved over the past 150,000-300,000 years or so- ever since modern mankind existed.
Humans are social species and thus have evolved an ability to feel shame. Similarly, we are a tribal species and tend to see what others in our group do in private as either tribe-building or tribe-averse. Those things are normal and the guidelines they provide has helped society grow. Where they become problematic is when some in the society decide that shame doesn't work well enough on its own. So they impose more. Religious texts are often used to justify inhumanity in the name of humanity. All, or nearly all of these reintegration camps are done so under an umbrella of religion. It absolves a person of responsibility in order to allow them to behave in a patently inhumane manner toward another person. Religion by its very nature has no basis in fact or reality, and the notion that faith is a virtue is an affront to everything our species has evolved to be able to do.
I feel so bad for the people who have been forced to endure the suffering these camps cause, and I feel bad for humanity that it continues to use imaginationary decrees rather than reason to establish not only their horrible protocol, but the sense of justification religious zombies get from practicing them.
Government which governs least governs best, and its essence is to provide safety from others with bad intentions. Why religion is an accepted departure from this guarantee to atrocious. Government should stay out of the business allowing myth to dictate societal norms and rules. Shut these fucking camps down!
I give you my heartiest Secular "Amen!" for everything you just said.
🙂
And before we shut the STAR camps down, everyone in this Comment section involved in the pissing contests should take a walk through the camps, so they can see that what happened was real and see that humanity matters.
No. Government should not shut down these camps where all we get is Reddit dissenting voices a not any arguments from the other side. The libertarian approach is to let all voices be heard, let debate be had, and ultimately let these teenagers and their parents decide if they want to be converted. Banning these choices threatens the agency of citizens and is an authoritarian act.
You two do not want, nor believe in religious freedom. You want a government-run atheist state.
And before we shut the STAR camps down, everyone in this Comment section involved in the pissing contests should take a walk through the camps, so they can see that what happened was real and see that humanity matters.
I myself am explicitly asking for the evidence and am wholly willing to cut state funding either way. Federal take over of a state program because somebody alleged on Reddit that they saw somebody else being persecuted through a window is a religiously-motivated usurpation of federalism to consolidate power in favor of the preferred religion.
Humans are social species and thus have evolved an ability to feel shame.
Is this a statement of fact or a religious/socio-political belief? If the former, prove that humans feel shame.
Once you've done that, if it can be done, prove the scientifically or factually/objectively correct way(s), if any, to absolve oneself of any shame.
Because your solution doesn't seem to give one whit about any actual harm and simply, if not overtly, simply reframing who is allowed to feel shame/virtue and who should get more shame/virtue heaved upon them for their (perceived) misdeeds.
Humans did indeed evolve with the capacity for feeling "shame", and for collecting in groups. However, having intellects allows us to move beyond the instinctual animal reactions to more rational thought and behavior.
"Shame" has value when it results in individuals feeling shame for violating the rights of others (theft, assault, vandalism), but it is grossly cheapened and misused when it is applied to sex (religions and governments tend to disagree because they use shame to manipulate their victims).
Group thinking was initially useful at the family level, but grew to encompass unrealistically large groups, and it became obvious to those who looked at it without a pro-group bias that it did not work at larger levels, except for those who bullied or conned their way into the ruling class. Centuries of political philosophy dealing with such problems have concluded that it is the individual which
is fundamentally important, and that ethics must be based on the treatment of individuals,
As far as I know, John is still listed as a donor to the Reason Foundation (which is separate from Reason Magazine). Reason gets donations from a lot of people, in a lot of professions; no reason to list them either
I suggest that John is a donor to the Reason Foundation because they are rare in having a common sense view about consensual activity and the free market.
HUNTER BIDEN FAKE BRIBERY SCANDAL UPDATE!
'How's the fishing?' Devon Archer testifies Joe Biden never talked business when put on phone
.
"I think you have to understand that there was no business conversation about a cap table or a fee or anything like that," Archer said to the committee. "It was, you know, just general niceties and, you know, conversation in general about the geography, about the weather, whatever it may be."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/08/03/hunter-biden-associate-says-joe-biden-never-talked-business-on-calls/70521880007/
Wow, the first "highly credible" witness turned out to be a criminal with ties to China and now Hunter's business partner pretty much exonerates him.
That left the weak shit that JOE BIDEN TALKED ON THE PHONE! claims.
Even Fox News is dropping this fake scandal now.
Nice of you to think Dem Rep Goldman is the honest person here. The transcripts were released yet you chose the democrat narrative instead.
Good work Mr Not An Obvious Democrat.
Imagine a gaslighting neocon fifty-center so inept that he tries to insinuate that Vice President Biden called in on bribery and influence peddling calls, just because he was genuinely interested in the weather there and what the clients were having for dinner.
How Open Society doesn't send you packing is beyond me.
Shrike will do anything his God Soros tells him to do or say. Shrike is a loyal acolyte.
Here is a fun story for you shrike. Bidens energy sec graholm was working secret discussions with Chinese firms that paid Hunter.
https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/biden-energy-secretary-secretly-consulted-top-chinese-energy-official-spr-release-sales
that's what you get in return for investing in the biden brand
Dare we say it, but...
the walls are closing in!
"It didn't TOTALLY implicate Biden!" - Jeff yesterday.
Novel theories of construction and government determination of what someone thinks is fine by Jeff.
20 bank accounts, laptops, emails, multiple witnesses 170 SAR reports… no smoking gun yells jeff.
Would love for Jeff to tell us what Joe's college age grand daughter was doing for Romania to get paid tens of thousands.
Blow jobs?
Reminder. Bates denied Joe ever met with Burisma for a lunch despite an email stating he did. Archer confirmed Joe Biden met them for lunch. That's a long time to talk just weather.
Q — turn your attention now to spring of 2015, dinner at Cafe Milano, where I believe Vice President Biden attended as well. Can you tell us about that dinner? Who was there?
.
A Okay. Could you repeat the date?
.
Q It’s the spring or April of 2015, around —
.
A April 2015.
.
Mr. Schwartz. The second one.
.
Mr. Archer. Oh, the second — there you go. Yes, Vice President Biden did attend.
.
Q And who else was there?
.
A There was two dinners. At that diner, it was Vadym, Karim Massimov — so Vadym P. from Burisma; Karim Massimov; a Greek priest, Orthodox priest; I think — I believe someone from the World Food Programme. I think that was the — and then there — do you have others?
This was when Joe was VP mind you. His campaign denied the meeting ever happened despite gaps in his official schedule.
So let me get this straight. We should quietly sit back as the left sterilizes their kids, cuts dicks and tits off, have teachers indoctrinate and encourage transitions behind parents backs, support censorship if you speak out against cultural transgenderism....
Ignore child trafficking....
But sending a kid to a camp to discuss bad aspects of porn is a step too far?
Oddly enough they even mention predation in the article.
During this time his father told a co-worker who was in his late 20s about Cameron. Soon the man "started reaching out and being very schmoozy," Cameron said. "I was so alone. Everybody hated me….And here's this person." He was giving Cameron the attention he craved. They began having sexual encounters. Cameron says the relationship was consensual, yet "you're under the age of consent, and there's no way to justify pedophilia. But he was always just really, really nice."
But somehow that isn't the focus of what is bad.
What's bad about it? Cameron, the one involved, said it was a positive experience (and who dares claim the authority to disagree?). The REAL: focus of what is bad is that the man was arrested and imprisoned!
But sending a kid to a camp to discuss bad aspects of porn is a step too far?
But the camp practices conversion therapy.
Which is what you correctly accuse the left of when it comes to gender reassignment.
If you read the article they were anti sex in general, not conversion. The camp didn’t have electroshock, usually the hysterical claims your side posits. They simply talked about the dangers of sex. So wasn’t even conversion therapy. Did you read the article?
Why is conversion therapy bad but drag camp good? Why is medical intervention and sterilization at the altar of trans better than a camp? Explain.
"Did you read the article?"
Alright, that was funny.
The mad lad won't even read beyond the headline of his own articles, why would he read this one?
Hey, if you hope to sexualize children and reset all moral and social inhibitions, any effort to resist is anti-progressive sedition.
How about this Jesse. You should understand that there is more than one correct way to raise a child. That the state should not get involved unless there is actual verifiable child abuse. That to get the state involved in parental authority over matters that are not related to child abuse, but only related to matters of differences in parenting style, will only lead to authoritarian overreach into the affairs of parents everywhere.
Get your head out of your ass and stop trying to impose a single "morally correct" way to raise children upon everyone using the state.
Do people have the right to self-governence, even to the point of being exclusive of others or not?
People don't have the right to force others to obey their particular parenting style when there is no child abuse and no violations of the NAP.
Some parents paid for this.
Not if you are against leftist wishes - Jeff.
"If parents haven't read to their kids the combined works of Thomas Sowell and Dinesh D'Souza by time they are 10 years old, then they're doin' it wrong and it's child abuse!" -- Jesse
What a weird lie. You realize everyone can read what Jesse wrote, right?
Funny how you are quick to characterize my obvious hyperbole as a lie, while others around here post obvious lies and you say absolutely nothing.
Like this one, for example:
“Every monthly payrolls number in 2023 has been revised lower to manipulate perception and markets“
ML kept defending this lie yesterday and you tried to weakly defend it as well. Yet you have no problems twisting my obvious hyperbole above as a lie.
Why is that, R Mac? Isn't your behavior here itself an example of dishonest behavior?
I’ve come to the conclusion that the folks who confuse hyperbole with lies just aren’t very bright. The degree of hatred they show in their posts tells me they believe what they are saying. Which means they’re dumber than a box of rocks.
Like Drax on Guardians of the Galaxy trying to understand a metaphor.
No, R Mac is smart enough. This is deliberate on his part. He understands that I am using hyperbole. He just chooses to call it a lie because he is trolling.
He thinks saying "Ideas!" is clever. No, not too bright.
Hey RMac! The FAS retard is calling you dumb.
That's hilarious.
No, R Mac is smart enough.
Definitely can’t say the same about JA or ML. And Dlam is dumb as a stump.
Is this projection again? Weren't you just crying about Nardz yesterday?
Self awareness really isn't your superpower.
A conclusion drawn from actual behavior can’t be a lie.
What is your conclusion for why every monthly payroll number is reported higher than it really is? If they keep reporting it to high, shouldn’t they adjust how they’re calculating it?
The lie here, is your assumption as to the rationale for their actions.
If their initial estimates are revised lower later on, there are many possible and plausible reasons why that is the case. But YOU, and ML, both believe it is for a deceptive purpose, "to manipulate perception and markets". That is the lie.
Unless, of course, you can provide some proof for your claim. Do you have proof?
Beliefs can’t be lies.
No wonder you lie so much, you don’t even understand what the word means.
But YOU, and ML, both believe it is for a deceptive purpose, “to manipulate perception and markets”. That is the lie.
Speaking of deceptive purposes, imagine a cheap shill pretending it isn't.
Perhaps you want to propose an alternative theory as to why such an unorthodox and highly suspicious trend occurred this year, just as the administration decided to tell folks not to believe their lying eyes on Bidenomics.
Except this is not a belief, it is a claim:
“Every monthly payrolls number in 2023 has been revised lower to manipulate perception and markets“
It is stated as if it is a fact. Not as a belief.
So, if you now want to say that you were WRONG for rushing to ML's defense in supporting the lie that the numbers were revised lower for the purpose to "manipulate perception and markets", then fine I'll accept it. But I want to hear you say it.
"Perhaps you want to propose an alternative theory "
I don't have to. It's your claim, not mine.
Your conclusion is wrong but I’m not going to say what the real conclusion is.
— Lying Jeffy
If your claim is so correct, why can't you offer proof of your claim?
"I don’t have to. It’s your claim, not mine."
Actually you do, shillboy.
You're the one claiming we're lying, yet you refuse to say how.
This would be so much easier for you if you would just prove your claim. Why not just prove your claim?
My claim is self evident. You know this. The "proof" you're demanding can only be confession by the perpetrators. You also know this.
Do you disagree? Is their any form of proof you would accept that doesn't involve confession from the perpetrators?
There isn't, is there?
So this is the stupid little game you'll play in order to cast aspersions and evade answering our question.
The thing is, Jeff, the vast majority of people here reading our exchange aren't idiots and dumb enough to fall for your middle school sophistry.
Your claim is garbage as it requires as you say either a signed confession or mind-reading in order to be proved.
You CAN'T prove it.
Are you really so dumb as to think that the ONLY possible way for statistics to be adjusted in this particular way is via corrupt deception? There is no other possible way?
Opinions, by definition, can’t be a lie. What the actual fuck?
It was fun getting Lying Jeffy’s inherent dishonesty and sudden rage (he should look into this new rage thing. Not healthy) to get him to go Sqrlsy level retard today.
“Are you really so dumb as to think that the ONLY possible way for statistics to be adjusted in this particular way is via corrupt deception?”
In the manner and frequency it was done? Of course, it’s self-evident. Or are you trying to claim a department that’s been doing this for decades suddenly fucked up in exactly the same manner nine times in a row?
You think everyone reading our exchange must be so gullible and retarded.
"What is your conclusion for why every monthly payroll number is reported higher than it really is?"
This is burden shifting. It is not my job to prove your claim for you. It is your job to prove your claim.
Both you and ML believe that the statisticians at BLS revise the estimates lower in order “to manipulate perception and markets”. Prove it.
It’s not burden shifting to ask you your opinion. You’re really struggling today.
This is burden shifting. It is not my job to prove your claim for you. It is your job to prove your claim.
Tell that to them regarding the election. Fallacies like this which were once the province of the left are now embraced by the far right. These guys have become what they hate.
I am not interested in giving my opinion on the matter until you provide some proof for your claim.
You dug this hole for yourself, you can climb out of it without help from me.
It is not my job to prove your claim for you. It is your job to prove your claim.
You're calling us liars. It is exactly your burden to explain why.
Tell that to them regarding the election.
People have explained it to you until they're blue in the face, and every time you're confounded you run away.
"You’re calling us liars."
You stated a claim without proof.
Specifically, the claim of:
“Every monthly payrolls number in 2023 has been revised lower to manipulate perception and markets“
You have yet to offer proof. The longer you delay in offering proof, the easier it becomes to believe that you are lying.
Specifically, the claim of:
“Every monthly payrolls number in 2023 has been revised lower to manipulate perception and markets“
You have yet to offer proof.
I gave you explicit and incontrovertible evidence from mainstream media sources and the department itself that every monthly payrolls number in 2023 has been revised lower.
Why are you lying about it?
What you are pretending you want is some notarized confession from the Biden administration admitting to motive, which you know isn't going to happen despite being self-evident.
Do you really think you're tricking people?
Hey Media Matters! Is Jeff really the best you can do?
And so here's the game that you play.
The dispute isn't about the validity of the numbers. Not even R Mac is claiming that. In fact, we went over this yesterday!
https://reason.com/2023/08/05/controlling-your-uncontrollable-addiction-to-tech/?comments=true#comment-10185470
We talked about this yesterday. You know we talked about this yesterday. And yet you keep bringing up the statistics as if that is the source of the dispute. Because you are avoiding the central question. Because you know you cannot prove your claim, which is, that you claim that the REASON why the numbers were adjusted downward was an act of deception intended to "manipulate markets and perception".
No one here is questioning the validity of the statistics. But you bring this up yet again, to waste time and drag out the discussion to avoid the issue because I've caught you in a lie, a claim that you cannot prove, that you will not admit.
And yet you’re focusing on the numbers in that post and deliberately ignoring my point.
“What you are pretending you want is some notarized confession from the Biden administration admitting to motive, which you know isn’t going to happen despite being self-evident.”
Is there any form of evidence you would accept aside from a confession by the administration that they were purposefully doing it to deceive?
There isn’t, is there.
Well, ML, you set yourself up with a difficult claim to prove. So yeah I think about the only thing it would take is some type of documented proof from the statisticians that they juice the numbers in order to "manipulate markets and perceptions".
I know that if I had made such a claim during the Trump admin, that their people were manipulating numbers in order to make his admin look better, you would have lambasted me for it. "You can't prove it! You just have TDS!!!!" That's why I don't make those types of claims.
That doesn't stop you from making batshit insane claims about the other side, though, does it?
Or, you could say "well, maybe that claim is false, maybe there could be other reasons why the numbers are adjusted downward other than a corrupt intention to deceive, I am not sure." Would that be too hard to say?
The sentence you keep quoting has two parts: one is a declarative and demonstrable fact “Every monthly payrolls number in 2023 has been revised lower”. If you take umbrage with this part and think that ML is lying, you can easily prove him wrong.
The second is an opinion: “to manipulate perception and markets”. Which a) can’t be a lie but could be bad opinion and b) should be self evident to someone so much more intelligent than us lowly rubes, seeing as the government CONSTANTLY manipulates perception and markets through all kinds of various means and measures. There could be a million reasons why they (the government) chooses to do this and the post in question made no allusion to any of them.
Tony tries to play this same sophistry game whenever he argues that natural rights don’t exist because they aren’t self-evident, to him. Be better than Tony.
"Tony tries to play this same sophistry game whenever he argues that natural rights don’t exist because they aren’t self-evident, to him. Be better than Tony."
Imagine being more sophistic than Tony. And it's so obvious but somehow he thinks it's effective. "Unless you give me the thief's confession I won't believe a robbery occurred".
This is stuff a toddler wouldn't fall for, but Jeff thinks someone reading the exchange will.
Media Matters isn't sending their best.
Both you and ML believe that the statisticians at BLS revise the estimates lower in order “to manipulate perception and markets”. Prove it.
If an agency is always revising numbers in the same direction then it is valid to claim they are manipulating the data. An audit will always expect to reveal that some numbers are overstated and some numbers are understated. Any accountant will tell you that when the numbers are always overstated, it is clearly intentional.
Conservatism is a cornerstone principle of accounting and it requires that, if, on average, only 80% of eggs actually hatch, that you don't record all the eggs being incubated as chicken inventory and then revise the numbers down to account for the failures. You report 80% of the eggs in incubators as chicken inventory. Then, if 85% hatch you revise up, and if 75% hatch you revise down. It's not like they don't have enough historical data to figure a reasonable % at the time the report is due.
He wants to signal to Mike and sarc who claim to have me muted despite knowing what I write.
Jesse: “…as the left sterilizes their kids, cuts dicks and tits off, have teachers indoctrinate and encourage transitions behind parents backs,”
Lying Jeffy: “You should understand that there is more than one correct way to raise a child…. Get your head out of your ass and stop trying to impose a single “morally correct” way to raise children upon everyone using the state.”
It’s really quite amazing how dishonest you are.
What's the dishonest part?
"You should understand that there is more than one correct way to raise a child"
Do you agree or disagree with this statement?
"Get your head out of your ass and stop trying to impose a single “morally correct” way to raise children upon everyone using the state.”
Do you agree or disagree with this statement?
It’s dishonest because you’re responding to:
“…as the left sterilizes their kids, cuts dicks and tits off, have teachers indoctrinate and encourage transitions behind parents backs,”
“You should understand that there is more than one correct way to raise a child”
Do you agree or disagree with this statement?
Sterilizing your kids is not a correct way to raise your kids. Teacher’s making decisions behind parents back is not a correct way to raise kids.
Sterilizing your kids is not a correct way to raise your kids.
Is that so.
https://www.yalemedicine.org/conditions/pediatric-cancer-treatment
No one is talking about cancer you dishonest hack.
You said:
“Sterilizing your kids is not a correct way to raise your kids.”
And yet there are plenty of parents out there who seek pediatric cancer treatment for their kids, an unfortunate side effect of which is often infertility.
So, are you willing to admit that your initial claim was wrong? Or, do you think that parents who seek pediatric cancer treatment for their kids are guilty of child abuse?
No one is talking about cancer you dishonest hack.
“Sterilizing your kids is not a correct way to raise your kids.”
And yet there are plenty of parents out there who seek pediatric cancer treatment for their kids, an unfortunate side effect of which is often infertility.
Here's another one for the bookmarks. Jeff's comparing deliberate castration to the inadvertent side effects of cancer treatment.
Example #3427 of why I call this sociopath "evil".
Then correct your statement, because pediatric cancer treatment very much does, unfortunately, involve sterilizing kids.
And it's an unwanted side effect, not a deliberate choice, you dishonest fuck.
Holy false equivocation Batman.
Do you accept at face value Jesse's claims about what "the left" is doing? Do you think he is being honest?
Jesse doesn't know what "the left" means. To him it's anyone who disagrees with him. The guy is a bonehead.
How pathetic is it to participate in a discussion where you have half the people in it muted?
FAS is a bitch even in middle age.
Do you have a citation?
I love this behavior of yours jeff and Mike where you can call anyone who disagrees with you trump cultists and conservative yet cry like retarded little bitches when someone calls you out for pushing false leftist narratives.
Do you want multiple examples of you claiming libertarians have more in common with the left despite censorship, covid, regulatory expansion, and goin after political enemies?
I can post them when you deny it.
It is *my opinion* that Jesse, and people like him, think of "the left" in cultural and lifestyle terms, not in policy or ideological terms.
So "the left" are people who live in urban/suburban areas, don't go to church, don't have guns, have college degrees, are younger in age, etc. They might be totally opposed to abortion and totally in favor of low taxes, but to Jesse they still qualify as "the left" because they hang out with people who hate Donald Trump.
You give him too much credit. From what I've observed it's just a pejorative he applies to anyone who disagrees with Republicans. And since Republicans have no use for liberty other than guns and low taxes, he honestly believes libertarians are leftists. He's not very bright.
Weird how you can observe people you’ve claimed to have muted. I use adjectives that describe your behaviors. Such as above. Or how you rush into any article with mild criticism of Biden to start attacking conservatives and throwing shit.
Again youre being a hypocrite as you call everyone mean to you or who points out your illogical bullshit a conservative.
I even have two disagreements with people in this very thread I dont call leftists. You however have a consistent behavior. So you are one.
You’ve been given dozens of examples of this and now you’re gonna pretend you haven’t.
So dishonest.
Do you think there is a difference between actively being in favor of gender reassignment surgery, and not banning gender reassignment surgery by the state?
You know, kind of like the difference between being opposed to banning heroin, and actively encouraging a heroin habit?
Do you think it is fair to lump everyone who is not in favor of banning gender reassignment surgery as being in favor of "cut[ting] dicks and tits off'?
Do you think it is fair to lump everyone on "the left" as being all uniformly in favor of the same thing? Is Gov. Asa Hutchinson on "the left"? As I recall, he opposed having the state ban gender affirming care.
"Do you accept at face value Jesse’s claims about what “the left” is doing? Do you think he is being honest?"
Yes and absolutely, you lying fuck.
How many links have we given jeff regarding the cult of modern transgenderism doing exactly what I stated? Dozens at this point? With even laws being passed?
Jeff relies on ignorance and straight lies.
The knots the right wing ties itself into in order to maintain its baseline anger is funny until the nonsense begins to affect real people. A doctor, psychologist, the adolescent, and the parents decide- after learning and discussing the ramifications of a particular gender identity-conforming procedure- whether or not to go through with it. It is people making up their own minds. The idea that teachers are turning kids queer or attempting to convince them to transition medically is simply bullshit. It just is. It's no less a lie than the lie that Biden somehow 'stole" an election from Trump. The only people who genuinely believe those lies are the simple folk who are unable to think critically for themselves. So they listen to Sean Hannity or Alex Jones or Donald Trump or Ted Cruz. And those guys all know 100% it's bullshit. But they are also cynics extraordinaire who understand that an angry group of morons is a group of morons willing to open their check books. It is all a grift, and simple people lap it up like the oxycontin they used to get from their doctor.
Child trafficking is a real problem. But its extent and causes bear no resemblance to the bullshit mumbledyfuck that Christofascist rednecks like to imagine. "Sending a kid to a camp to *discuss* the bad aspects of porn... Jesus fucking Christ. Could you possibly rationalize it any more? The reality is that untrained, unqualified "counselors" are fucking kids up in the name of Saint Jesus or whatever. I seriously think that the hicks and Rubes that make up the base of the Republican Party have reached Terminal Stupidity. They are so intent on being outraged and feeling like victims that reality is nothing but an inconvenience to to be ignored.
1) There are doctors that promote the nonsensical “gender identity-conforming procedure[s]”; this often happens without the knowledge of parents. There are bills in blue states that try to allow this kind of thing to happen. There’s leaked footage of Disney employees that admitted that they want to promote a sexual lifestyle to children.
None of this is made up stuff by the “Christofascist rednecks”. It’s gotten big enough of a problem to where there are even gays opposing this. Look up an organization called “Gays Against Groomers”. When members of the LGBT community yell “We’re coming after your children”, you bet that parents and others are gonna call them out.
2) Contrary to your claims, Hannity, Jones, Trump and Cruz speak a lot of truths that the left is unwilling to accept or even acknowledge it exists. Such as calling a woman a woman. Transgenderism is a gateway to self-deception.
3) The way you downplay child trafficking is outright disgusting. There are millions of victims of trafficking all over the world:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/301095/global-slavery-index/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/300853/human-trafficking-share-of-sexually-exploited-victims/
About 40% were sexually abused, with significant amounts of them being children.
Statistics also show that sexual abuse of children is no more likely to occur at Christian communities than they are in public schools and government programs, let alone trafficking rings. It is dishonest of you to single out Christians when plenty of other non-Christian groups have done likewise.
4) The “Rubes” are simply telling the truth, and you have trouble accepting it. You are a pro-groomer. If anyone else wants to refute this guy, then please help yourself.
There’s leaked footage of Disney employees that admitted that they want to promote a sexual lifestyle to children.
Disney’s paradoxical position here is very… telling.
That is, teachers in FL can, effectively, bring down the full force of the law on any parent “tarping and alarming” their children. And, based on the allegations here, the behavior targets a much larger and broader community than just transitioning kids. But Disney didn’t choose to go after or, seemingly, even counter such activity.
Religion largely/entirely aside, it’s akin to feminists complaining that any given occupation in the US is 49/51% female/male, and therefore patriarchal, while in large swaths of the world women are forced to urinate in the bushes at their own peril. They specifically aren’t improving conditions for the majority of humanity but, instead, trying to divide and erode humanity where it’s already overwhelmingly good for the 99.99+%.
'When Cameron was growing up in the 2010s, he was preoccupied with two things: that he was gay, and that there would be dire consequences if his parents and community found out. He lived in a small town in Utah, where over 90 percent of the residents are Mormon. "They are very strict about gender roles and sexuality," he says.
'But Cameron didn't want to keep his secret to himself. In 2014, when he was 14, he came out to a close friend via text message. Soon after he sent the message, his parents went through his phone and discovered it. "They immediately confronted me about it," he says. "I was barely ready to tell one person. I was not ready to have that conversation with my parents."'
Could be worse. Imagine growing up in a progressive coastal blue family, and realizing that you are a conservative--or worse, a libertarian. If you tell your moms, you might get sent to a re-education camp.
Funny thing is, if you switch out "gay" with virtually any other behavior even remotely contested (or not) nothing presented is really afoul of anything.
The only reason the first half of the story, statutory rape aside, is relevant is because it's just assumed that not exonerating a budding homosexual to the status of being fully irreproachable is invariably a sin.
https://twitter.com/NautPoso/status/1688175402957545472?t=7iw4dUhoet5rD1DySSiqSw&s=19
[Video]
LMAO.
https://twitter.com/Oilfield_Rando/status/1688160677217591296?t=ePpX5IUOCw6I_Z9uYOL-Sg&s=19
Man. She’s gotta be the most effective DEI instructor on the planet.
I mean, they all want white men to go home and kill themselves, but this chick convinced one to do it after only TWO training sessions!
[Link]
Larry Fink and Shrike's boss should give her some sort of award.
And that guy was a dedicated progressive.
https://www.thefp.com/p/a-racist-smear-a-tarnished-career-suicide
And so a ticking time bomb. When some vestige of masculine rationality made him challenge a Strong Black Woman, she quickly put him back in his subservient progressive place and lit the fuse.
Sorry for the mixed metaphor.
So, a binary explosive?
That's SO anti-trans, you racist!
And his downfall was because he said Canada was better than the United States. It's not even safe to say *that* any more.
https://twitter.com/roddreher/status/1688136338665603072?t=C2zQH6jHHW2m_7U-_6vkiQ&s=19
A stadium full of Marxists chanting "Kill The Boer" recently is the first time many of us in the West became aware that all was not well in post-apartheid South Africa. It's pretty bad, & getting worse -- and our media are turning a blind eye. Learn more:
[Link]
"and our media are turning a blind eye."
The feature, not a bug.
Marxists always need to continue the 'revolution' to justify their actions. It's happened everywhere it's ever been tried. Almost like you could predict it. Reliably. Every time.
The self-described heart of Marxism is struggle, aka revolution. Some of them might aspire to a post-Marxist utopia, but most of them like killing people and burning shit down.
Which is why we need to prioritize fighting antisemitism in 3rd world countries...
You are aware that South Africa is pal-sy with Putin, right?
I don't think even you know what you're saying with that statement.
"Inside an Abusive Anti-Porn Camp for Teens"
Does the word "abusive" mean something different now? Because I read some complaining about having to exercise here, and someone who deliberately peed herself because the staffer wouldn't let her leave, but that's about it.
The rest of the complaints seem to be about the other campers and their parents at home. Everything mentioned sounds like what goes down in your average highschool.
Did I miss something big or is Reason bullshitting us again?
The camp didn't teach drag or indoctrinate kids to become trans.
Abuse by omission of progressive ideology?
Exactly. They didn't even hand out pills to sterilize the kids.
The whole article us utter "EMOTE!" garbage. First hand accounts of knowing statutory rape get dismissed; vague, 3rd hand allegations of stuff that doesn't even meet a minimal definition of a crime *ON FUCKING REDDIT* gets construed as abuse. *Teens* who OD on Tylenol and wine before anybody institutionalizes them for anything are described as victims because they may've been treated alongside groups of people who clearly do have deviant sexual behavior.
Libertarianism aside, if you wanted to help pretty much anyone here or even just objectively identify problems, you can't. Libertarianism included, if you wanted to strictly leave these people to their devices, the article and complaints stand as stated. It's indistinguishable from fabricated propaganda that spans the spectrum from the unbridled hysteria, psycho/sociopathy, and narcissism of Cults of Personality and Dolchstoßlegende to Star Chambers and Spanish Inquisitors all the way around.
The article would only be improved, even as a work of fiction, by the inclusion of the Illuminati.
Congratulations, mad.casual! You're not only the embodiment of Dr. Clayton Forrester and working on being the next Hank Libertariantranslator, but now you're wanting to take on being like Herr Misek.
Maybe you should take on this points rather than be so dismissive of your ad hominem attacks. If you don't, then may God have mercy on your soul.
Regarding it as an attack is generous. It's really more self-defeating blather.
Show me a bruise, a police report, a grainy photo through a dusty pain of glass... anything other than hearsay and allegation and I'll agree to punish the guilty without regard for religious or sexual orientation. I even agree that state funding should be cut up front and without question.
Otherwise, it's just a call to persecute infidels based on one's preferred group of saints by someone espousing atheism and objectivity.
and, given due process, I’ll agree...
Hey ML, still waiting on your proof for your claim that **ALL** of the revoked press passes at the White House ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””. Where's the list?
https://reason.com/2023/08/05/controlling-your-uncontrollable-addiction-to-tech/?comments=true#comment-10185366
Why did you lie about Jim Acosta?
Why are you trying to change the subject?
Why are you trying to white knight for ML?
So you can’t explain why you lied about Jim Acosta?
Why don't you explain to everyone why you come here to accuse me of lying even when I'm not lying, such as with the use of hyperbole, or with the use of debatably true statements, while letting all sorts of lies by all sorts of other people go by unchallenged?
So you’re not going to explain why you lied about Jim Acosta?
I think I've explained myself well enough.
You never said anything about why you lied about Jim Acosta.
You just lied, then moved on.
R Mac Who Talks and Snorts Smack, WHY do you keep ON, endlessly, forever, with your statements about how you LOVE Satan, demonic dark witchcraft, and torturing (and drinking the blood of newly killed) innocent newborn Christian babies?
So jeff hasn't stoll explained why he lied about Acosta? Thought he would have by now. It has been almost 36 hours. Or why he pushed the fine good people lie as well? Hmm. Plenty of time to go and look up the truth.
Almost like jeff could give two shits about the truth but prefers the leftist narrative instead.
I gave you plenty of examples of conservative journalists and journalists the Whitehouse had regarded as disruptive losing press access, Lying Jeffy.
The Washington Post's Paul Farhi, the Today News Africa's Simon Ateba, the Daily Signal's Fred Lucas, and yet now you're saying that it doesn't count unless I give you the complaints of all 442 reporters booted.
What a joke you are.
And you still refuse to answer as to why you lied about the reason Jim Acosta got his press pass revoked.
yet now you’re saying that it doesn’t count unless I give you the complaints of all 442 reporters booted.
Yes, that is correct. Because YOU claimed that **ALL** of the revoked press passes at the White House ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””.
All you have to do, is admit you were wrong, that not **ALL** of the revoked press passes ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””. But that would undercut the right-wing victimhood narrative as well as the right-wing Biden-banana-republic narrative of him denying press passes based on ideology. Plus, you won't ever admit you were wrong to someone you think is a Nazi.
So you're going to continue this little game and I will continue to hold you accountable.
Remember that time you lied about Jim Acosta?
Remember all those times when you would obsess about calling me a liar even when I was using obvious hyperbole, or when I was making debatably true statements, but would let big whoppers of lies go by unchallenged by others?
The lie you told about Jim Acosta wasn’t hyperbole, it was just a lie. A lie to attack Trump.
To be fair it was just as much to defend Biden.
True.
Remember that time, right now, that you are white knighting for your pal ML who tells lies on a daily basis while you spare no effort accusing me of lying even when it is plainly obvious that I am engaging in hyperbole instead?
I don’t remember that. I do remember you lying about Jim Acosta yesterday.
It was deliberate and he lied in the same post he used to accuse me of lying.
Were some of the revoked press passes from Grayzone, Glenn Greenwald types? You know, those left-wing journalists that get labeled as right wing?
Why don't you ask ML. He claims to know the identity of everyone who was denied a press pass.
Yes they were Paul. Jeff knows because I gave him examples in the very same thread, which he ignored then and is lying about now.
How the fuck would you know? You have no idea whose press passes were revoked except for the few examples spoon-fed to you in the news article.
Which news article? I linked directly to posts by the journalists and media outlets affected you lying fuck.
Your bullshit games are off the charts today.
To jeff exercise is worse than having his dick cut off. So qualifies as abuse.
To Jesse, being separated from the Right-Wing Media Borg Collective means wandering through life in a state of perplexed confusion. "Now I have to think for myself.... I don't know what to do!"
Will R Mac accuse me of being dishonest here by accusing Jesse of being a part of a fictional TV race?
Poor Lying Jeffy.
"Will R Mac accuse me of being dishonest here by accusing Jesse of being a part of a fictional TV race?"
Amazing, you can't even keep track of your own invective. Literally what you just did.
But YOU, and ML, both believe it is for a deceptive purpose, “to manipulate perception and markets”. That is the lie.
He’s really struggling today. Maybe he tied one on with sarc last night?
He has struggled for months at this point. Look at his discussion yesterday with ML where he openly lied about past statements even after given links.
He needs to be careful. If Sarc gets drunk enough he'll titty-fuck a soft fat lad like Jeff no problem.
Jeff already bought a lb of flour so sarc can find his hole.
Oh ho, this is fun:
Secretary Antony Blinken @SecBlinken
The United States strongly condemns Russia’s conviction of opposition leader Aleksey Navalny on politically motivated charges. The Kremlin cannot silence the truth. Navalny should be released.
Hey ML, when are you going to post your proof for your claim that **ALL** of the revoked press passes at the White House ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””?
https://reason.com/2023/08/05/controlling-your-uncontrollable-addiction-to-tech/?comments=true#comment-10185366
Nice attempt at distraction from the implications of Secretary Blinken's post.
Anyway, even though I gave you explicit examples with citations, you're still insisting I lied unless I give you citations from all 442 journalists. Meanwhile, you refuse to answer as to why you lied, in the very same post, about the reason Jim Acosta lost his pass.
What a piece of work you are.
Now, setting aside your lame distraction attempt, do you see any hypocrisy between Secretary Blinken's post and what his party is doing to Trump?
https://reason.com/2023/08/06/inside-an-anti-porn-camp-for-teens/?comments=true#comment-10186138
All you have to do, is admit you were wrong, that not **ALL** of the revoked press passes ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””. But that would undercut the right-wing victimhood narrative as well as the right-wing Biden-banana-republic narrative of him denying press passes based on ideology. Plus, you won’t ever admit you were wrong to someone you think is a Nazi.
I wasn't wrong and I gave you examples, fatty.
Now, why did you lie about not getting examples? Why did you lie about the reason Jim Acosta lost his pass in the same post?
Also, stop misdirecting with your heckler's veto, and lame distraction attempt, and answer the question. Do you see any hypocrisy between Secretary Blinken’s post and what his party is doing to Trump?
I wasn’t wrong
Yes you were. You claimed that **ALL** of the press passes that were revoked ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””. Here is the quote again:
https://reason.com/2023/08/05/controlling-your-uncontrollable-addiction-to-tech/?comments=true#comment-10185366
It’s just an odd coincidence then that all the revoked press passes belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive” like Simon Ateba?
(emphasis added)
All you have to do is admit you were wrong, that you lied, that you don’t actually know if **ALL** of the press passes that were revoked ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””. That’s all you have to do. But you can’t do it, can you?
OR, you can prove me wrong, and demonstrate the validity of your claim by providing a list of **ALL** of the press pass holders who had their passes revoked and show that they meet your criteria.
So?
And yes ALL, Jeffy.
But no. I'm not going to cite 442 different journalists for you. That's just retarded.
I gave clear examples. Not to you, because you're a fifty-centing fuck who's paid to advance a narrative and will never be convinced because you refuse to be, but to any innocent who stumbles upon your lies and might be momentarily deceived. I gave the examples to convince them, and I'm sure that they suffice.
And yes ALL, Jeffy.
Prove it.
I already gave citations that proved it was true.
Now, are you going to admit you deliberately lied about Acosta so we can move on, Lying Jeffy?
Obviously, the apostasy depends on which sacred text has been smeared.
Newsom Team Appears Agitated That DeSantis Accepted Debate Challenge
Newsom lives in a well of media, bureaucratic and clerisy affirmation and approval. It’ll be interesting to see how he operates in a more hostile environment. I have no idea how he’ll do.
I like how Newsome said he needed just 24 hours and then demands 3 months before the debate.
If he accepts this will be a big deal for Newsom
If he can stand up to a fighter like DeSantis, he'll prove to the omniparty he's ready to stand on the national stage.
If he crumbles it'll take at least a decade to regain lost credibility.
Do you really think the mass media will report any outcome as a loss for Newsom?
No, but it's the party poohbahs he needs to impress.
+1
Hey ML, it's been a while since you posted your unsupported claim that **ALL** of the revoked press passes at the White House ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””. When are you going to provide proof of your claim?
https://reason.com/2023/08/05/controlling-your-uncontrollable-addiction-to-tech/?comments=true#comment-10185366
Nice attempt at distraction.
Anyway, even though I gave you explicit examples with citations, you’re still insisting I lied unless I give you citations from all 442 journalists. Meanwhile, you refuse to answer as to why you lied, in the very same post, about the reason Jim Acosta lost his pass.
What a piece of work you are.
Now, setting aside your lame distraction attempt, do you think Newsom has the ability to win a debate against DeSantis?
I think Newsom, DeSantis, and you all have one thing in common: you're all inveterate liars.
https://reason.com/2023/08/06/inside-an-anti-porn-camp-for-teens/?comments=true#comment-10186138
All you have to do, is admit you were wrong, that not **ALL** of the revoked press passes ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””. But that would undercut the right-wing victimhood narrative as well as the right-wing Biden-banana-republic narrative of him denying press passes based on ideology. Plus, you won’t ever admit you were wrong to someone you think is a Nazi.
I wasn't wrong and I gave you examples, fatty.
Now, why did you lie about not getting examples? Why did you lie about the reason Jim Acosta lost his pass in the same post?
Also, stop misdirecting with your heckler's veto, and lame distraction attempt, and answer the question. Do you think Newsom has the ability to win a debate against DeSantis?
Admit you lied, ML.
Admit you lied, Jeff.
I gave clear examples demonstrating the truth. Not to you, because you're a fifty-centing fuck who's paid to advance a narrative and will never be convinced because you refuse to be, but to any innocent who stumbles upon your lies and might be momentarily deceived. I gave the examples to convince them, and I'm sure that they suffice.
Is Chris Wallace moderating?
Hannity.
Ugh. Not that I was planning on watching anyway.
Newsome is going to wipe the floor with DeSantis.
Have you not been paying attention to him on the campaign trail?
I suspect the purpose of this is for DeSantis to "put over" Newsom nationally. Newsome, slimeball that he is, takes down the Republicans' champion and totes exposes how progressives/dems are on the right side of history- which will make Gavin the dems' undisputed champion going forward.
*The term "put over" comes from pro wrestling, in which one wrestler is used to make another wrestler popular by losing a big match to him. The losing wrestler's role is to sell his opponent as The Hero, the new Face superstar.
Never let the other team pick the moderator.
"Is sending kids into the wilderness really the best way to keep them off Pornhub?"
It depends on the 5G network coverage.
This is big... Really big.
Elon Musk @elonmusk
If you were unfairly treated by your employer due to posting or liking something on this platform, we will fund your legal bill.
No limit.
Please let us know.
They're going to shoot him one of these days.
Hey ML, did I miss where you provided proof for that claim you made yesterday, the one where you claimed that **ALL** of the revoked press passes at the White House ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””?
https://reason.com/2023/08/05/controlling-your-uncontrollable-addiction-to-tech/?comments=true#comment-10185366
Nice attempt at distraction from the implications of Elon Musk’s post.
Anyway, even though I gave you explicit examples with citations, you’re still insisting I lied unless I give you citations from all 442 journalists. Meanwhile, you refuse to answer as to why you lied, in the very same post, about the reason Jim Acosta lost his pass.
What a piece of work you are.
Now, setting aside your lame distraction attempt, do you think your ilk's efforts to cow people into submission and self-censorship with threats of firing will lose its effectiveness?
I think Twitter/X is the perfect platform for you, because they abundantly tolerate liars like you.
https://reason.com/2023/08/06/inside-an-anti-porn-camp-for-teens/?comments=true#comment-10186138
All you have to do, is admit you were wrong, that not **ALL** of the revoked press passes ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””. But that would undercut the right-wing victimhood narrative as well as the right-wing Biden-banana-republic narrative of him denying press passes based on ideology. Plus, you won’t ever admit you were wrong to someone you think is a Nazi.
I wasn't wrong and I gave you examples, fatty.
Now, why did you lie about not getting examples? Why did you lie about the reason Jim Acosta lost his pass in the same post?
Also, stop misdirecting with your heckler's veto, and lame distraction attempt, and answer the question. Do you think your ilk’s efforts to cow people into submission and self-censorship with threats of firing will lose its effectiveness?
Admit you lied, ML. You lied.
You lied Jeff, you lied about this and you deliberately and purposefully lied about Acosta in the same post.
I gave clear examples proving my point, with journalists and papers who had lost their passes saying the exact same thing that I did.
I posted them not for you, because you're a fifty-centing fuck who's paid to advance a narrative and will never be convinced because you refuse to be, but to any innocent who stumbles upon your lies and might be momentarily deceived.
I gave all the examples to convince them, and I'm sure that they suffice.
I gave clear examples proving my point
Your POINT is that **ALL** of the revoked press passes ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””, is it not?
Just admit that this claim is false and we can move on.
Why on earth would I do a fool thing like that. I gave citations that proved it was true.
Now, are you going to admit you deliberately lied about Acosta so we can move on, Lying Jeffy?
Wow. No shit. The world doesn't deserve Musk but there he is.
https://twitter.com/ImMeme0/status/1688015093605302272?t=guM5iAfdJIU31EKA0cEovg&s=19
Remember when the MSM told you to not believe your lying eyes.
Here is a video footage from Georgia showing suitcases filled with ballots pulled from under table AFTER Supervisor told GOP Poll Workers to leave Tabulation Center.
President Trump was ahead of Biden by more than 160,000 votes in Georgia on election night when all of a sudden Fulton County stopped counting ballots after a “pipe burst”.
Officials in Georgia weren’t able to produce any invoices or work orders related to a “burst pipe” at Atlanta’s State Farm Arena that was blamed for an abrupt pause in vote counting on election night.
We now know that a pipe never burst. It was all a lie in order to kick out poll watchers while a few crooks stayed behind to count illegal ballots for Joe Biden.
It was their criminal act that gave Biden the spike in unexplained votes and the lead in Georgia on Wednesday morning and helped Biden to ‘win’ the state with 11,779 more votes.
Do the math: 4 suitcases, 1 tabulator processes 3K ballots in 1 hour, multiple tabulator, 2 hours, 3 unsupervised crooks with ballots we even don’t know where they came from.
If you question why they lied about bursted pipe, stopped counting votes, kicked the poll watchers or ask why suitcase stuffed with ballots were pulled from under the table you are a conspiracy theorist.
Nobody got arrested for fraudulent election but President Trump is being arrested and faces 78 charges, and 641 years in prison for questioning a rigged election.
If that was any other country American would have invaded it by now.
Here is CBS News footage from the night of the elections in Georgia just after they stopped counting the votes. President Trump was leading in Georgia over 166,448 votes.
When I think how much we got cheated in 2020 my blood boils because one have to be really stupid to think that basement dummy got 81 million votes.
[Videos]
Still isn't a suitcase. Still a normal ballot container.
I find claims to be much more persuasive when they are presented truthfully.
Do you find it odd that there wouldn't be a controversy without all of the other actions around it such as sending observers home and then even fighting to keep them out when observers found out and tried to return.
psst: your team was going to question the results of the election no matter what. your team was going to generate controversy out of whole cloth no matter what.
Note Lying Jeffy doesn’t address the issue whatsoever.
Note that R Mac, the guy who continually accuses me of lying even when I’m not, does not address at all the untruthful claim that the ballots were in “suitcases”, a lie that ATM above noted.
Yet more evidence that Troll Mac doesn’t give a shit about honesty or truthfulness, only in trolling me and other people he hates around here. He’s happy to let lies go unchallenged if they are from friendly voices on his team.
Yes, they weren’t in suitcases, and I have no idea why “I meme therefore I am” on Twitter said they were.
Congrats?
I had to call you out on it before you bothered to say anything about it.
Such a commitment to honesty you have.
Now do carry on berating me for being such a lying liar for the obvious use of hyperbole.
I’ve questioned why people say they were in suitcases before.
If your position is that I need to correct every incorrect word posted in the comments, then you’re retarded.
My position is that you should probably make it less obvious that you are not all that interested in truthful content, you are only really interested in trolling people that you don't like using accusations of lying as your trolling device of choice.
Your position is that I should have refuted “I meme therefore I am” on Twitter’s use of the word “suitcase” immediately.
And that’s retarded.
I was told this was debunked. Yest I still cannot get that.
Look rbike, it wasn’t a suitcase, therefore election inspectors being lied to and sent home while Biden got a bunch of votes is ok.
ONLY. FOCUS. ON. THE. WORD. SUITCASE!
My position is that your choice to inject yourself into this discussion involved ignoring very obvious lies and instead was a choice to focus on my statement, which wasn't even a lie, but an opinion, while calling me a liar.
You don't give a shit about the truth. You are a troll who uses accusations of lies as a weapon.
Lying Jeffy lies about me calling him a liar.
Lying Jeffy claiming RMac doesn't care about the truth while he's brazenly lying his own ass off is a sight to behold.
Now do 2016.
I find it less compelling when people are inserting dishonesty into it. It's like they don't think the claim they're making is valid or strong enough, so they spice it up by pretending that actual ballot containers are suitcases.
This same need to embellish or mislead people is the same reason I lose interest in a lot of police misconduct stories on Reason. When I see a forthright, honest account that isn't including easily disproved bullshit into a story, it adds credibility to the overall account.
You're looking for any reason to side with “respectable” authority over those uncouth proles who dare to value their own thoughts over prescription cosmo dogma.
It doesn’t matter if you call them containers or suitcases. They were concealed vessels which contained ballots that were only pulled out after observers had been told counting would stop for the night and sent away. Then they were tabulated.
You say you find it less compelling when dishonesty is inserted into it, but you’re lying to yourself. Here you’re giving deference to the side who has been much more dishonest because that side has institutional authority. You’re nitpicking semantics by those who claim fraud but forgiving outright lies, like the “water main break” that didn’t exist and the counting (minus observers) that continued after saying it would be stopped until morning.
Try being honest with yourself.
It doesn’t matter if you call them containers or suitcases.
I'm interested in the truth, and not what makes the facts sound more damning. Being honest does matter. If someone was playing word games with Trump's indictment, claiming he was making suspicious phone calls to his employees, you would call out the dishonest framing.
The truth that has been refused to be investigated by various state entities?
At this point you sound like Scully and Mulder. "The truth is out there!"
If you're so interested in truth, why are you prioritizing "suitcases" vs "containers" instead of the multitude of glaring inconsistencies and outright lies from those whom you give the benefit of the doubt to?
One of the primary issues is state AGs and the SoS told everyone to just accept all the results without question. Even admitting that there were likely illegal votes but choosing not to investigate. A dozen court cases of illegal election rules. Abnormal behaviors to have observers stay in other rooms in the name of covid. Changing the rules at the last minute. Then telling everyone to accept the results without question as democrats brag in USA today about the means they would win the election.
How is that not misleading?
I mean Garland is now going after groups that attempted to investigate the elections claiming only state actors can do so.
One of the primary issues is state AGs and the SoS told everyone to just accept all the results without question.
No, Jesse.
They counted the votes, they posted the results on the various websites. The votes were counted in the presence of observers.
They conducted audits, they posted those results too. There were lawsuits, the information there was posted, they were adjudicated, those were all made public.
There was very little that was simply done "without question".
The problem is, at this point, short of you personally hand inspecting every single ballot in the nation, there is nothing that would convince you that Biden won fair and square, and so you will continue to invent controversy to justify your doubt.
So after the ten millionth time of you being shown the data and the results posted on public websites, and you still not believing it and still making bullshit claims of "we were just told to accept it all without question!!!", the rest of us normal people just decide to ignore you and tell you to go away.
I don’t call him Lying Jeffy for nothing:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/judge-rules-michigan-sec-state-broke-law-absentee-ballot
Still have yet to get a response or acknowledgment from the lefties here after posting this over a dozen times.
I mean Garland is now going after groups that attempted to investigate the elections claiming only state actors can do so.
We don't have 'vigilante justice' in this country, Jesse.
Are you referring to this story?
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4131458-trump-allies-in-michigan-criminally-charged-with-mishandling-voting-machines/
Republicans in Michigan literally STOLE voting machines, broke into them, and tried to "test" them. Are you seriously defending this behavior?
Since jeff seems to once again pushing the trust blindly all government edicts...
I dont trust the government. Not given their long history of lies. Examples like CHAOS, COINTELPRO, lying about the Hunter laptop, lying abouse FISA, and on and on.
And when government declares no fraud, sit down and accept the elections, and criminalize investigating elections and now speaking about the issues of elections, I still up and take notice. Jack Smith is literally going after Trump for "election lies" that require the government to declare the true state of Trumps mind as the truth. If they are willing to go this far, he'll no I dont believe this was a clean and honest election. When the new AG of Arizona goes after the Hobbs campaign for posting images of laughable signature marching that was presented in a PUBLIC meeting, I have questions. When obeservers were not allowed to observe, I have questions. When they fucking admit to it in major papers bragging about it, I have questions.
Instead of finding one false claim to dismiss the totality of the claim I utilize it to falsify the single claim. Mike and Jeff were trying to dismiss all the election claims because Giuliani admitted to one false claim. That is dishonest.
This government has done nothing to foment trust. Yet we are asked to trust them blindly for the 2020 elections. Ignoring all the known issues of that election. Why? Why are the so hesitant to prove those with questions to be wrong? Instead they criminalize those questions.
So quite frankly, your claims of dishonesty in face of a government who openly lies to you constantly is a bit dishonest in itself.
It is fine to be skeptical of government claims. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is when the skepticism descends into paranoia.
The government was wrong to claim that it was the "cleanest election ever". If someone claimed that there was "zero fraud", then that person is an idiot. Both claims are false. So instead, go to the data. The numbers are posted on public websites. The audits have been posted. The court cases have been posted. It's all there.
sit down and accept the elections
What will you accept, Jesse? At this point I don't think you will accept anything. So why should anyone listen to your complaints if there is absolutely nothing you WILL accept?
criminalize investigating elections
See the article above. Are you really trying to justify the theft of election tabulation machines?
Jack Smith is literally going after Trump for “election lies” that require the government to declare the true state of Trumps mind as the truth.
Read the fucking indictment, Jesse. Right wing media has rotted your brain. It is about far more than just speech and Trump's state of mind. It is about his ACTIONS that he took to try to subvert the transfer of power.
They lied about covid, but totes wouldn't lie about an election with trillions of dollars at stake.
Those deplorables, on the other hand, don't have signed, notarized confessions from every poll worker and government official involved in vote counting, thus we can assume everything they say is a lie.
This really seems to be ATM's standard.
Now, if you just want to point out that there some odd things happening there at State Farm, you can simply focus on facts.
Two poll-watchers signed affidavits, meaning they were telling the truth under penalty of perjury. What they were told was that they were going to stop counting votes at 10:30. They were trying to get an answer from a manager about how many ballots had been counted at that time and how many were left to go, and never got a clear answer. Then a bunch of people including news cameras left the room, and then people there continued counting votes.
There's no mention in either affidavit about a leak or a burst pipe. That wasn't given as the reason they were stopping, that seemingly only emerged as a detail later on. News reports went out on Twitter and other places that Fulton had stopped counting for the night.
Now, Regina Waller was the election affairs manager in Fulton County, and this story of a burst pipe seems to come from her. There's something fishy about it since the affidavits of the Republican poll watchers never mentioned anything about a leak or burst pipe. It comes from her that it was a burst pipe on the floor above them that caused a four hour delay. Later it comes out that this was a slow leak in an adjacent room. In the end it seems like it was an overflowing urinal, and there was never any pipe issue at all. And the four-hour delay never happened.
So where did the report of a four-hour delay come from? You'd think poll-watchers would have said something if they'd stopped counting for four hours. Later someone said it causes an hour and a half delay. So why did election officials claim there was a four hour delay, and how come the poll-watchers don't even mention an hour-and-a-half delay?
And this is on top of the weird fact that poll watchers and the news stations were informed that Fulton County was stopping the count at 10:30, and then continued working. It was widely reported they would resume vote counting at 8:30 the next morning. But poll watchers, after leaving, later learned they were still counting, and came back around 1:00 am when they learned that everyone had "just finished."
Legally, you're not required to have vote poll-watchers. But if someone in the room shouted that they were stopping for the night, and then the poll-watchers seem to believe work is done and are asking you for an update on the vote count, why not just tell them that you're not actually stopping for the night? Just simple politeness would have you inform them that vote counting is continuing and that there's no need to leave yet.
So yes, there are problems there and questions to be asked. But when you sprinkle in dishonesty, what happens is that people tune you out because it seems like you're not being an honest actor. They ignore valid concerns to shoot down the actual lies and bullshit, and we never really get answers about why Regina Waller told the news, and seemingly officials in the state office, that a water main had burst in the rooms above theirs that set them back 4 hours.
Difficulty is the observers stated in affidavits that Waller told them directly the counting was stopped. And they stuck around to be sure. And the counting restarted shortly after they left. Then they were barred from reentry for about 30 minutes when they found out the voting was occurring and returned.
Read the affidavit, though. Poll watcher does not claim he was "barred from re-entry."
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20420331-mitchell-harrison-affidavit
If I recall right, there was a claim in Michigan about a poll watcher who left to use the restroom and then was told he could not re-enter the ballot-counting room. I wonder if various different claims have gotten lumped together in people's memories.
I am talking about the person, can't remember the name, of the GOP observer who found out on a call they had restarted. He openly told the courts it took him half an hour as they slow rolled confirming he was an allowed observer. There are dozens of these affidavits.
"So where did the report of a four-hour delay come from?"
It came from reporters reading it on the fucking news at around 10:30pm November 3rd 2020.
Waller herself pushed the pipe burst claim.
“The matter caused the start of work today to be delayed by four hours,” Waller said.
Now… why does this delay matter. Statistical analysis of the absentee ballots shows the huge gains for Biden, statistical outliers when comparing batch samples, occurred only after the election day results from in person voting was known. All these ballots well outside of 2 sigma deviations from the split in absentee voting occurred in similar windows around the areas where concerns are had. It was showng absentee ballots broke around 60-40 on average. Yet there were late-night ballot batches showing Buden with 98-99 percent and higher than usual non votes of the president. Virtually every statistical outlier broke for Biden. Whereas when you know the total population of the votes, outliers should break in both directions if truly random. It was not random.
Amazing how all the right-wingers here approve of kidnapping and abuse of children when it's happening to the right kind of kids.
Some of you really are loathsome cunts.
What the fuck are you babbling about?
Simple. Encouraging kids to be sexual, and especially to explore non-traditional sexuality is good. Telling kids that some sexual behavior might not be appropriate for them is Nazi-level evil.
MAP is the new norm..along with sexual mutilating kids with mental illnesses while grooming them for sex. Don't you know that? Reason is obsessed with this...
God forbid you racist, bigot, white supremacist for asking why a group of mentally ill adults should now be in charge of "helping" confused kids with the side benefit of building up their brand, numbers, and having more "pre pubescents" to "be friends with."
Shrike… explain how parents sending a kid to camp is kidnapping.
Explain why someone in his late 20s preying on a kid who is 14 is less outrageous.
What was the abuse?
Shrike, did you read the article?
my understanding is that they offer special transportation options based on the likelihood of the child resisting to go
This happens with camps used due to criminals and drug abuse as well. It is not kidnapping when the parents consent. They know who is taking the kids and where the kids are. By definition not kidnapping.
from their website
"Transportation: Safety is our primary concern at this very vulnerable transition. If your child is unwilling or there are safety risk factors that need to be considered, please speak with your Admissions Counselor for Adolescent Transport Service recommendations."
https://starguides.net/enrollment/
So the parents are informed. How is it kidnapping?
I'm not shrike, you lying sociopath.
It's kidnapping because the parents are being deceived. Duh, you empathy-deprived cracker.
How were they decieved shrike? How is it kidnapping for a parent to arrange transport?
Exain shrike.
Let's expand on your assertion. If an activist doctor tells a parent surgery/drugs or else suicide after a 2 hour conversation with a child, then take and perform surgery on the child is that kidnapping? Now we know suicide rates do not decrease after transitions. We have multiple testimonies from derransitioners about how quickly they were offered drugs or surgery.
By your assertion this would be kidnapping. Explain.
A Jewish Liberal outrage with a story which confirms her bias that millions of kids are being denied their true sexuallity by horrible Christian (in this case Mormon..who are almost as bad as Catholics)...man this gets boring. How about the lack of media interest in Epstein's Johns...
Izzat Chu, Herr Misek?
Child abuse is evil, regardless of the ethnicity, race, or religion of the abuser or abused. The STAR Camps and it's Mormon supporters are abusers and Jeffrey Epstein with his island was another abuser.
Gather the needed evidence of their horrors, arrest and try all involved, then take all found guilty by the scruff of the neck and keep them in lifetime exile on another island away from children and other human beings!
They truly don't support parental rights. They only support parental "rights" when the parents make the choices that they approve of.
Parents choosing to support their children with gender affirming therapy = child abuse, parents are brainwashed and indoctrinated
Parents choosing to support their children with gay conversion therapy = sending kids to camp for harmless fun
Holy hypocrisy, Jeffman. Weren't you insisting genital mutilation affirmation on kiddies is the parents prerogative?
He’s really twisted himself into a pretzel today.
Every summer when I was a kid, I got trafficked to an alt-right Christian bootcamp where we learned survival skills like boating and archery.
Oh wait, nevermind, that was just summer camp at YMCA.
The horror!
Is there a place on the planet with a bigger wealth disparity than California?
The Los Angeles Humanitarian Crisis Right Before Your Eyes
Hey ML, you have some work to do. Yesterday you claimed that **ALL** of the revoked press passes at the White House ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive”” but you didn't provide any proof for your claim. When can we see some proof of your claim?
https://reason.com/2023/08/05/controlling-your-uncontrollable-addiction-to-tech/?comments=true#comment-10185366
What, MammaryBahnFuhrer makes claims that SHE CAN NOT SUPPORT?!?!
WHEN did this first happen, and WHY was I NOT told about this earlier??!?!
Oh he does this all the time. He makes claims he can't support, then he tries to weasel out of them using a half-dozen logical fallacies, and then finally concluding with some emotional HOW DARE YOU hysterics and then trouncing off while calling me a Nazi. It's rather predictable at this point.
Nice attempt at distraction from the topic of addict abuse.
Anyway, even though I gave you explicit examples with citations, you’re still insisting I lied unless I give you citations from all 442 journalists. Meanwhile, you refuse to answer as to why you lied, in the very same post, about the reason Jim Acosta lost his pass.
What a piece of work you are.
Now, setting aside your lame distraction attempt, do you think California is abandoning addicts and the mentally ill to rape and violence by refusing to properly fund treatment programs, instead providing needles and drugs.
I think you and the mentally ill have a lot in common: both think that the thoughts in their head represent reality when in fact they do not.
https://reason.com/2023/08/06/inside-an-anti-porn-camp-for-teens/?comments=true#comment-10186138
All you have to do, is admit you were wrong, that not **ALL** of the revoked press passes ”belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””. But that would undercut the right-wing victimhood narrative as well as the right-wing Biden-banana-republic narrative of him denying press passes based on ideology. Plus, you won’t ever admit you were wrong to someone you think is a Nazi.
I wasn't wrong and I gave you examples, fatty.
Now, why did you lie about not getting examples? Why did you lie about the reason Jim Acosta lost his pass in the same post?
Also, stop misdirecting with your heckler's veto, and lame distraction attempt, and answer the question. Do you think California is abandoning addicts and the mentally ill to rape and violence by refusing to properly fund treatment programs, instead providing needles and drugs?
You. Lied. And. Refuse. To. Admit. It.
THIS (below) is why MammaryBahnFuhrer is "Living HER Truth" by LYING! She (and other SheMales and HeWomen) are PISSED for having been DISSED by the White House! MammaryBahnFuhrer has a bug up Her blouse, planted by the White House!
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/white-house-bans-trans-activist-topless-photo-pride-event-rcna89116
White House bans trans activist for a topless photo at a Pride event
Rose Montoya, a trans model and activist, said she was “living her truth” and wasn’t trying to be vulgar or profane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Montoya ... So now we know who MammaryBahnFuhrer REALLY is!
Refute what he said or Stop. Typing.
These are the games that he plays to avoid accountability for his lies, and I'm not going to enable those games. He tries to change the subject, move the goalposts, do anything at all to slime and weasel his way out of admitting his lies.
To recap, ONE MORE TIME:
Yesterday, he posted this:
https://reason.com/2023/08/05/controlling-your-uncontrollable-addiction-to-tech/?comments=true#comment-10185195
And then, later on, he made this whopper of a claim:
https://reason.com/2023/08/05/controlling-your-uncontrollable-addiction-to-tech/?comments=true#comment-10185366
It’s just an odd coincidence then that all the revoked press passes belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive” like Simon Ateba?
(emphasis added)
ML clearly wants to push this narrative that Biden is revoking press passes for ideological reasons, and he claims that **ALL** of the press passes that were revoked "belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive”". Those are his exact words.
In reality, the Biden WH has instituted this new policy for granting hard press passes which does not on its face appear to be ideologically biased at all. This new policy or may not be a good idea, but it would be difficult to argue by looking at the policy itself that it is specifically targeting anyone based on ideology.
And ML has spent most of the day yesterday, and most of the day today, refusing to admit that he lied. That it is not true that **ALL** of the people who had their press passes revoked "belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive”".
So he will present one or two examples of people who did have their passes revoked and claim that's 'good enough'. Sorry, that is not sufficient to prove the claim that **ALL** were revoked for that reason. Or he will demand that I try to explain it - no, that is burden-shifting. Or he will bring up Jim Acosta, which is irrelevant to HIS claim about revoking press passes.
He is just a little slimeball weasel without any honor whatsoever who will absolutely refuse to admit when he is wrong.
All he has to say is "I was wrong, I actually don't know if **ALL** of the press passes that were revoked were from conservatives or not". But he can't do it.
OR, he could actually do the work and try to prove the claim by trying to find those 442 individuals who did have their press passes revoked. But he won't do that either.
He will just sit there and drag this on forever and ever until he thinks I've forgotten about it and then he will think he will have gotten away with it again. Well I'm going to remember this one for a little while.
MammaryBahnFuhrer is Perfect in Every Way, and so will admit NO error, or even a vast exaggeration, EVER!!! A legend in Her Own Mind, ass they say!
You lied Jeff, you lied about this and you deliberately and purposefully lied about Acosta in the same post.
I’m not going to cite 442 different journalists for you. That’s just retarded.
But what I did do was gave clear, undeniable examples proving my point, from journalists and papers who had lost their Whitehouse press passes in the purge. And in every citation they were saying the exact same thing that I did.
I posted them not for you, because you’re a fifty-centing fuck who’s paid to advance a narrative and will never be convinced because you refuse to be, but to any innocent who stumbles upon your lies and might be momentarily deceived.
I gave all the examples to convince them, and I’m sure that they suffice.
I’m not going to cite 442 different journalists for you. That’s just retarded.
Of course you aren't, because that would require actually proving your claim. Since your claim is false, you know it's false, but you won't admit it, you won't do what is required.
Your claim that **ALL** of the press passes that were revoked “belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive”” is false.
You were pushing that claim, because you were pushing a narrative that Biden is revoking press passes based on ideology. That he is some banana republic tinpot dictator. That is how you entitled your original comment, right? That whole narrative is false.
THAT is why you won't give up the claim. Because you don't want to give up the narrative that the claim supports.
Your entire tribe is filled with liars who don't give a shit about the truth or facts or reason or even reality. Your tribe is only interested in power, and will push whatever false narrative is necessary to pursue power.
(Oh and before you ask: Yup the other tribe does the exact same fucking thing.)
And you are a weak-minded shill for your tribe because you have the mental capacity of an insecure toddler. It is just easier for you to propagate narratives than it is to take a position on the side of truth. Because nowadays it's lonely to stand on the side of truth. If you push narratives and lies, you will have a whole tribe of allies that will stand with you giving you a pat on the back and giving you attaboys and making you feel special and cool. But if you stand for truth, then very few people like you because you burst everybody's narratives. You would rather be accepted in the tribe than be correct.
You are just a sad sad little man. If you weren't such a slimy little turd, I might actually feel sorry for you.
But what I did do was gave clear, undeniable examples proving my point, from journalists and papers who had lost their Whitehouse press passes in the purge. And in every citation they were saying the exact same thing that I did.
You gave cherry picked examples from a handful of individuals who had their passes revoked. They all gave the same story because they were all advancing the same narrative, the same one you want to advance. Because you are all on the same team.
You're all advancing the narrative that Biden is acting like a tinpot dictator changing the rules on press passes to deny access based on ideology. And you use selective anecdotes to push your narrative. That was the point of the stories that you cited. It was not to inform. It was to push a narrative.
And you probably will fool some people into believing your narrative, because there are a lot of stupid people out there, and a lot of those stupid people are willing to believe anything if it means something negative about Biden or Democrats. (JUST LIKE there are a lot of stupid people out there willing to believe anything if it means something negative about Trump or Republicans.)
And you are happy to push lies in the form of these narratives because you and Jesse are the Team Red fifty-centers around here - except you don't even get paid for it, your compensation comes in being accepted in the tribe. You'll push whatever nonsense they want you to push as long as you aren't kicked out of the tribe.
Congratulations, your Tribal Credit Score went up a few points by pushing a Tribally approved narrative! You must feel so good about yourself.
and will never be convinced because you refuse to be
You know what would convince me? ACTUALLY PROVING YOUR CLAIM.
You claimed that **ALL** of the press passes that were revoked “belong to “conservative” journalists and journalists who the Whitehouse has labeled “disruptive””.
You did not prove that claim, not even close. You cited a handful of people who complained about the change in press pass rules. Well guess what, a handful of people is not even close to 442 people. How about the other 400+ people who had their press passes revoked? Were they all conservatives? Were they all labeled as "disruptive"? Is Biden REALLY using press pass access to exclude based on ideology?
"weak-minded shill... your tribe... mental capacity of an insecure toddler... attaboys... sad sad little man.... slimy little turd"
Lol. Three humongous post of invective in a row. It's delicious to know that an unrepentant Nazi like you is that triggered. I noticed that your using some of the phrases I used on you. Fantastic to know that they hit home.
"You gave cherry picked examples from a handful of individuals who had their passes revoked. They all gave the same story because they were all advancing the same narrative, the same one you want to advance. Because you are all on the same team."
Of those cites one was the Washington Post and another the WaPo's Dana Milbank. Both articles said exactly the same thing I did. If you'd actually read my citations you'd have known not to make such a fucking stupid, dishonest claim.
But you didn't bother to because you didn't care about the truth. You're paid to lie and shill so that's what you'll do.
"You know what would convince me? ACTUALLY PROVING YOUR CLAIM."
I proved my claim with citations from affected journalists and papers, but you don't care. You're insisting that I give you 442 citations which is absolutely fucking retarded.
I gave citations as evidence for the people who might be tricked by your lies. Not you.
Because even if I took a week and tracked down all 442 journalists and posted them here, you'd still lie about it because that's what you're paid for. It's your job.
Of those cites one was the Washington Post and another the WaPo’s Dana Milbank. Both articles said exactly the same thing I did. If you’d actually read my citations you’d have known not to make such a fucking stupid, dishonest claim.
But you didn’t bother to because you didn’t care about the truth. You’re paid to lie and shill so that’s what you’ll do.
Also, speaking of your lies, you still haven't explained why you lied about Acosta.
“Of course you aren’t, because that would require actually proving your claim.”
Lying Jeffy admits he’s going to need testimony from over 400 journalists before he accepts ML’s claim. Does that seem like the position of an honest man?
Poor little fatboy wishes he could add clapping hands emojis between His. Stupid. Use. Of. Periods.
Fucking useless jackass.
And is there a place with more jobs in the homelessness industry?
Julie Kelly ????????
@julie_kelly2
I know you'll be shocked to hear this.
.
The 2 DOJ lawyers handling the case against Trump for J6 and attempts to "overturn" 2020 election are the same DOJ lawyers who declined to prosecute Andy McCabe for lying under oath--never mind his own role in 2016 election interference:
Don't worry, Trump is FINALLY conceding defeat, dropping His Big Lie about His Stolen Precious Erections, and thereby calling off His Trumpanzees Gone Apeshit! Now there can be peace, at long last! Maybe they can drop charges now...
STOP THE PRESSES!!! INSERT HOTTEST NEWS FLASH!!! BREAKING NEWS!!!
Trump finally (Sort of) concedes!
My most-senior inside contact at the Shadow White House has surreptitiously slipped me an advance copy of the ex-lame-duck POTUS’s concession speech. Without further ado, here it is:
Friends, non-foreigner-type True Americans, and all who Make America Great Again, lend me your ears! I come to bury Biden, not to praise him. Biden and his minions stole the elections, and we must dishonor that! To Make America Great Again, we must invent the most fantastic, fabulous, YUUUGEST BIGNESS EVAH SEEN, in the ways of truly factually fictitious, but Spiritually and Metaphorically True, NEW Republican ballots! Because I have directed My Generals and My Scientists to research the current and past performance, efficacy, and patriotism of one-party states, versus multi-party states. As I have directed them to, My impartial, unbiased, data-driven council of My Generals and My Scientists have determined that yea verily, one-party states work better! Therefore, we must all strive for the Glorious Day, when America becomes a one-party state, under the One True Party, the Republican Party!
But for now, the courts have sided with Biden and his camel-toe, and Antifa, BLM, and all the Marxist terrorists. We must let the courts have it their way, with mayo on the side. I mean, with Mao Tse Tung on the side, but without the Proud Boys standing back and standing by. Thank you, Proud Boys, for having stood by me. Also, thank you, Steve Bannon, Vladimir Putin, Kim Ill Dung, and Pepe the Stolen-Intellectual-Property Frog. Pepe, watch out for Miss Piggy, she and her “pre-nuptial contracts” will clean your clock, just like Melania is set to clean mine soon! But I digest.
So we can’t disrepute what the nasty courts have said, or there might be civil war. Sad! The courts aren’t very American these days! And if you don’t like what I just said? Well, I’m sorry that you feel that way!
So congratulations to Biden for having stolen the elections! This is America, so we must properly honor the decisions of the courts, in a dishonorable way! Biden can come and live with us in the White House, per the wishes of the courts. He can pour our covfefe for us, for Steve Bannon, Pepe the Frog, and I, and Jill can make sandwiches for us. We promise to call him POTUS, and her, First Lady! POTUS of covfefe, and First Lady of sandwiches, that is! Hey Biden! Get yer butt over here! Pepe needs some covfefe!
That setup will get us by for a little while! Meanwhile, we can schedule the NEW run-off elections, this time without any fraudulent so-called “Democratic” votes being allowed, and we can do this RIGHT the next time!
Meanwhile, congratulations to Joe Stalin-Biden, on being elected POTUS of pouring covfefe for Pepe!
Quick reminder. Voting dems in 2024 will ensure your taxes go up due to sunset clause in trump tax cuts scheduled for 2025.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/fox-news-economy/sunset-trump-tax-cuts-cast-darkness-economy
Good reason not to vote for Democrats then.
Do I read it or wait for Jeff to just blindly repeat the talking points?
David Weissman ✡️
@davidmweissman
·
Follow
My latest article, pease read and share.
I demand that checks and balances are some how enforced by ending this BS of an investigation on President Biden. This is abuse of power by the Republican Party.
https://washingtonpress.com/2023/08/04/opinion-republicans-stop-making-joe-biden-your-punching-bag/?mibextid=Zxz2cZ
Reason 2023/2024: Republicans are all about fiscal restraint right up until it comes to investigating Presidents for funneling money and support to crony regimes on a scale that makes Reagan look like an actual saint, then anything goes.
David Weissman is a total sellout!
i have a friend that got sent to a similar wilderness camp as punishment for getting a dui in high school ... sending someone to wilderness camp for viewing porn is absolutely twisted
Did you miss the entire sexual relationship between the guy in his late 20s and the 14 year old? They hand waive it away quickly but was in the article.
no ... it's disturbing ... that relationship and the camp can both be disturbing
How is the camp disturbing? The article does not get into it. As pointed out above many of the complaints are common to all summer camps. The issues raised were at the summer camp i got sent to as a kid from YMCA minus the discussions about masturbation. But the point of the camp was to address sexual norms. So that would be expected.
1. in most cases the young adults are being forced to participate in these wilderness camps against their will
2. they cost an absolute fortune
3. their purpose is extremely vague and could apply to anyone... "overcome technology, porn and sex addictions"
1. Talk to any kid who hates summer camp. It is up to the parents. What a weird argument.
2 nothing to do with abuse.
3. So is a far camp that doesn't send a parent their daily schedule abusing the child? When i did YMCA camp parents were told we got to ride horses, learn archery, etc. Then we had to muck the stalls as part of camp and archery range was out of commission. Was that abuse?
Youre really stretching the definition of abuse here.
i was arguing "disturbing" not "abusive" ... maybe we are talking past each other
I would still argue that it isnt disturbing for the same point. That would be the same shit as taught in Sunday school or seminary. It is normal of summer camps with the vast majority of what was in the article. Same with boarding schools.
An adult cannot be forced to attend camp.
Dude, I challenge you to examine every syllable of Alan Sherman's letter from Camp Granada and find the physical and sexual abuse of the STAR camps! The kid in this Reason story wasn't' just fucking homesick!
Hello Muddah! Hello Faddah!
https://youtu.be/t1wFQRKBa6Y
So, according to Trump, Pence has "gone to the Dark Side".
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/05/trump-pence-has-gone-to-the-dark-side-00109960
Where "Dark Side" means "not supporting Trump".
Of course no one can honestly question Pence's conservative bona fides. Even Trump's own lawyer, Eastman, openly admitted that if Pence had done what Trump wanted him to do, it would have violated the ECA and if it had been reviewed by SCOTUS it would have been rejected 9-0.
From a Constitutional perspective, Pence plainly made the right call, and I don't see how anyone can support Trump after what happened on Jan. 6. Trump genuinely puts himself above the Constitution. He puts himself above EVERYBODY and EVERYTHING. He is an extreme narcissist. He should not be anywhere near the levers of power again.
The Meeting of the Right Rightist Minds will now come to Odor!
Years ago by now, Our Dear Leader announced to us, that He may commit murder in broad daylight, and we shall still support Him! So He Has Commanded, and So Must it be Done!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/24/donald-trump-says-he-could-shoot-somebody-and-still-not-lose-voters
And now, oh ye Faithful of the Republican Church, It Has Become Known Unto us, that it is also in His Power and Privilege Ass Well, to murder the USA Constitution in broad daylight. Thus He Has Spoken, and Thus Must It Be Done! Thou shalt Render Unto Trump, and simply REND the USA Constitution, and wipe thine wise asses with it! Do NOT render unto some moldering old scrap of bathroom tissue! Lest we be called fools, or worse!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
Proud Boys, STAND with TRUMP, and stand by! And if ye don’t agree 110%, then we don’t need you polluting our world, because all who disagree with us in ANY way are LEFTISTS!!!
There, I think that’s a wrap! I’ve covered it ALL! You can take the rest of the day off.
(You’re welcome!)
Nobody can question McCain's or Bush's "conservative bona fides". And they were assholes. Believe it or not: there are more than two political positions in the US.
Presidents, VPs, and Congress have been "putting themselves above the Constitution" for more than a century, in particular, progressives. So spare us the faux outrage. Arguably, much of the 2020 election was done where various groups and institutions trampled the Constitution with jackboots.
Pence could have said "I consider these votes to be untrustworthy and refuse to count them"; then Congress and SCOTUS would have had to deal with the resulting mess. I don't think it would have been useful for him to do so, but he certainly had the option.
Pence could have said “I consider these votes to be untrustworthy and refuse to count them”
He did not have the Constitutional power to do so.
Under the Constitution, the job of counting the votes falls to the “president of the Senate”. The Constitution says little else about the procedure.
Pence could simply have walked out, for example. In that case, the president pro tem would have become president of the Senate and done the counting. Nothing unconstitutional about that: the VP is not required by the Constitution or law to preside over the Senate.
Pence saying that he personally was constitutionally compelled to count these votes right there and then is simply false; it is a lame excuse for a political calculation he made.
I don't care.
No really, I don't care. Parents have the right to raise their kids in manners similar to this (despite the lack of saying so, this is unavoidably religious in nature).
Were I draw the line is medication to alter the the body/mind in a non-reverseable way.
Lying Jeffy thinks parents should be allowed to mutilate their children.
Troll Mac doesn't give a shit about truth or lies, he just likes to accuse the people he doesn't like of being liars while his allies repeat lies without challenge.
Tell me about Jim Acosta losing his press pass, then explain how you’re not a liar?
Giuliani has until Tuesday to forfeit his lawsuit, since he admitted he lied after all about those two election workers in Georgia.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/05/politics/giuliani-lawsuit-2020-election/index.html
Again I hope the judge throws the book at him. What he did to those two women was beyond shameful.
"If you question socialist functionaries, you should be destroyed." -- Chemjeff
"There is no difference between asking legitimate questions and defamation." -- NOBY2
When it comes to government officials, that is correct: you cannot defame the government or its officials.
Needed what?
OK everyone, White Mike, Chemtard or Sarc?
https://i.redd.it/just-so-you-know-v0-4xatnllbuhh81.jpg?s=5c4fdc01da5311939a84e60da233e7ddcfc890e3
That is ML, when he crawls out of his mom's basement in Canada once a week to get his 15 minute dose of Vitamin D.
What are you talking about? ML doesn't have a mother. Bacteria reproduces by fission.
R Mac: “You are a liar! Bacteria is a plural noun but you used the singular verb ‘reproduces’ in the sentence!”
I've had that loser on mute for so long I couldn't begin to pretend to suggest what kind of nonsense he might say.
Ideas!
Anyway, as evidenced by his responses, Sarckles definitely peeks.
Haha, you’re broken.
Complains about talking about people, talks about people.
And just a day after Jeff lied about ML and ML posted the year old thread Jeff lied about.
Good honest team you have there Sarc.
It warms my heart when monsters like Jeff and idiots like Sarckles cry about me. Then I know that I'm doing the right thing.
Uh, ackshuyally, bacteria reproduces by mitosis.
-
So we get a 6000 word, sprawling New Yorker expose on a porn camp... but Reason couldn't be bothered to say a peep about kids being mutilated in the name of progress. Keep being you, Reason. Keep being you.
Reason has made it crystal clear where they stand in the kulturwar against children (grooming/trafficking/mutilating in the name of assigning “gender identity”).
It’s becoming unreadable.
Are we talking about minor females getting “top surgery” to remove their breasts for “gender-affirming” reasons?
Or are you talking about something else or something more than that?
Are you going to ignore the multitude of links proving your parsing to be a lie?
You know you can walk and chew gum at the same time, right?
Tell that to Reason. We can discern for ourselves. You ought to as well.
I just did tell it to Reason and Diane/Paul.
And unlike the "discernment" which the religious only do in emergencies, I aim to rationally think every waking minute.
Fox News begs Trump to show up for first debate
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4138169-fox-news-to-trump-show-up-for-the-debate/
Gotta admit, if Trump doesn't show up, there'd be no reason for me to watch it anyway.
Surprised nobody is talking about the most uplifting news of the day.
After failing to score a goal in regulation for the second straight match, the US Women's National Team was eliminated in the round of 16, the earliest they have ever been eliminated from the World Cup. Megan Rapinoe, who did not score a single goal during her entire World Cup run, missed a penalty shot wide in the last action she'll ever take as a representative for Team USA, after which a Swedish player made the 5th penalty to seal it for Sweden.
Justice to see those spoiled brats embarrass themselves on the field the same way they embarrass themselves off of it. Maybe focus a bit more on the sport and a bit less on being socially conscious. And quit whining that the contract you specifically negotiated isn't paying you enough when you're literally get paid more than your male counterparts.
woke choke
Hey, at least they got that bogus ESPY award for lying about their contract in the case that got thrown out of court.
That takes some balls, man.
Maybe I just run in different circles, but prior to the whole Transgender kerfuffle, I never heard much about women's sports or met anyone, male or female, who even cared about women's sports.
There’s followings for women’s tennis, women’s golf, and gymnastics. Maybe there are a couple other sports I can’t name just this second.
I just find this whole “equal pay for equal work” nonsense tiresome. Women’s sports only exist because it’s not equal work-women can’t compete with the top levels of men, so men have to be forbidden from competing.
Al Sharpton: Can you imagine if Thomas Jefferson or James Madison tried to overthrow the government?
https://twitter.com/KanekoaTheGreat/status/1687208312218210306
It's dumb, but parents can send their kids to whatever camp they want and it's no one else's business.
Weird article for a libertarian magazine.
Reason has a long history of writing about societal trends, looking beyond whether this or that thing should be legal or not.
I fail to see the "societal trend" here. Conservative parents have been trying to un-gay and un-porn their kids for decades, with everything from therapy to military boot camps.
And how's that working out there, Sunshine?
Probably about as poorly as it always has. What's your point, honeybuns?
The question is why ML thinks that this is a "societal trend" or why Reason thinks this is worth covering. I mean, from a libertarian point of view, parents have wide latitude to wreck their children's lives.
Not by initiating and allowing infliction of coercion and fraud and not at taxpayer's expense on Government land, as all happened in this story.
You submit to wreckage if you want. I say these cruel, delusional parents and the STAR Chamber camp torturers are the ones who need wrecking!
Nothing was at "taxpayer's expense". Star Guides is a legal, private entity, and they certainly have the same right to use government land as any other legal, private entity.
In a free society, short of serious physical violence, parents have wide latitude to coerce their children to do things the children don't want to do. Some parents may well abuse that power out of ignorance or cruelty, but the vast majority won't.
The alternative is that the state makes such decisions, and that guarantees widespread coercion, cruelty, and abuse. Of course, authoritarians like you prefer that, no doubt.
Goddamnit, the article said that the STAR camps accepted taxpayer funds, as does the entire troubled kid treatment industry!
And the STAR camps accepted court-ordered inmates of the justice system, including violent sex offenders side-by-side with harmless porn-watching and LGBTQ kids!
And the STAR camps performs their horrors on land rented from The Federal Bureau of Land Management!
The State also licensed the camps, but didn't require any reporting of abuse lawsuits against the camps! So the licensing was not for safety and competence, but more to restrict newcomers and competition and provide rent-seeking for the owners of the STAR camps and other treatment centers like them!
This is no different than taxi unions using government licensing to restrict Über and Lyft drivers in big cities!
Maybe you need a remedial reading camp to fix your obvious obliviousnes to what the Hell went on in Utah!
No, not a coerced camp, of course, but voluntary so you'll understand what the fuck Authoritarianism is and that it does not include me!
Dummy!
Sanford Dummy Reel
https://youtu.be/moYdbNXBwvk
Yes, they are being paid for a legitimate private service that the government wants to offer through a private company.
Yes, again, they are being paid for a legitimate private service that the government wants to offer through a private company.
Yes, just like any private company, they can use public lands for their business.
They aren't "restricting" anybody. You can offer your own gay conversion camp if you like.
What went on in Utah is that parents chose to send their son to a legitimate camp, the kind of decision parents can make in a free society.
I experienced authoritarianism first hand growing up, from a government that oppressed gays and lesbians. That is WHY I don't want government to interfere with parental decisions in these matters, even if I disagree with the choices the parents made.
What's your thoughts on ex-gays? They would be quick to tell you otherwise.
As a Pansexual male, I contend that it is possible for sexual orientation to be either immutable or flexible for both males and females, depending on the individual biology and circumstances.
But all that said, no one has a right to use coercive brainwashing and torture to get people to change their sexuality and government should respect Individual Rights and Equal Justice Before The Law, regardless of sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity.
A wilderness camp is neither "brainwashing" nor "torture".
And in a free society, parents do have the right to attempt to change the sexuality of their children through otherwise legal means.
Translation: "desperate incel".
Pansexual: When calling yourself "bisexual" isn't edgy enough and you find "attracted to both sexually mature human females and sexually mature human males" too limiting a description.
If you think the Goddamn STAR camps are so good and voluntary and peaceful and wholesome, why don't you go to one? Maybe make one your Stepford?
It absolutely is others business. Kids are NOT parental property. Doesn't mean there is any real option re what to do about it. But they are not property. The very legal definition of property involves abusus - the ability to destroy, abuse, alienate, etc the thing owned,
Having jurisdiction over your kids makes them your own “property” (very bad wording on your part), and thus is not abuse.
No. Cities, Boroughs, Counties, States, and Nations have jurisdictions, but that does not mean their Citizens are property of each of the respective Governments of these jurisdictions.
Governments of each of these jurisdictions, in the Libertarian viewpoint, are supposed to protect Individual Rights, not destroy them with slavery.
Likewise, parents are supposed to be protectors and trustees of children's Individual Rights until they grow to the age of accountability and think, speak, act for, provide for, and protect themselves.
If you believe forceful, third-party intervention is warranted here, then you'd better have some proof of injury, something more concrete and objective than, "Their values aren't my values, some kids have negative experiences, and 'experts say' porn addiction isn't real."
There was coercion, violence, and abuse in the STAR camps, and all on Government land and at Taxpayers' expense! Read the Goddamn story, Number Two-for-Brains!
Ownership is not a single right but a bundle of rights, and there are different degrees. Parents have property of a certain kind in their children, but it comes with a much smaller rights bundle than what we normally think of when we think of "property." Where to draw the line is an open question.
Except for all the deception, violence, taxpayer grifting, coercive religious subsidy and indoctrination that went on in this prison camp franchise and was inflicted on this poor kid and others like him. Yeah, that's really weird for a Libertarian to be concerned about! /Sarc
There is zero evidence for any of that.
Libertarians understand that parents have the power and right to indoctrinate their children religiously or otherwise, and to lie to them. That's because if the parents don't have that power, the state implicitly does. The fact that you advocate the latter means that you are not a libertarian.
I only want the government to perform it's sole legitimate role and protect the Individual Rights of the victims of these camps, not to replace the STAR camp torturers with government torturers!
Read the article for the evidence, Dummy!
I.e. you want to replace parental decision making about how to raise kids with government decision making.
And you keep lying about non-existent "torture" at those camps.
Was the co-worker named "Haven Monahan" by any chance. That's the only thing missing from this saga.
Young males are so horny you could take all actual porn away from them (plus anything with internet access) and they will turn something around them into porn. Next thing you know your teen is attracted to stuffed animals.
70s teens who hadn't found a way to steal a playboy probably turned to the underwear ads in the Sunday paper.
Gen X boys probably all tried to get the 2 second long image of a boob by wiggling the wire just right on the scrambled late night Cinemax soft cores.
There's no limit to the horny pubescent boy's imagination and ingenuity.
Don't forget the Sears Catalog, Frederick's of Hollywood, or Cosmopolitan.
🙂
😉
Mind you, stealing is a problem unto itself, whether the motive is pruient or otherwise. Just sneak peaks of the parents' goodies and respect private property.
Hallie Lieberman, a historian and journalist, is the author of Buzz: A Stimulating History of the Sex Toy (Pegasus Books) and is currently writing a book on the history of gigolos.
What we need is a history of Pimpin' and the utility of the Gloom Hand.
Well as Ice-T famously put it “Pimpin ain’t easy”.
TL;DR...But I will. The Spidey-Sense says this kid has been abused and victimized by everyone and everything he meets and sees.
This part of the story … WTF:
During this time his father told a co-worker who was in his late 20s about Cameron. Soon the man "started reaching out and being very schmoozy," Cameron said. "I was so alone. Everybody hated me….And here's this person." He was giving Cameron the attention he craved. They began having sexual encounters.
He must like it as he became "an active member of the leather community".
Yeah, in a libertarian society, parents can send their kids to anti-porn camps, to military boot camps, and to gay conversion camps. They can do that until their kids become legally competent and self-sufficient. Conversely, in a libertarian society, the state cannot show kids porn or castrate them or indoctrinate them into neo-Marxist ideology without the consent of the parents. Libertarianism is weird, huh? You should read up on it some time, "Dr. Lieberman"!
Did you read a Goddamn thing of what this kid was subjected to?
How he was deceived into going by his parents? How he witnessed and experienced violence and wanted suicide every day? How young people were put side-by-side with dangerous adult sex offenders? How this prison camp franchise used Taxdollars and Federal land and maintained religious affiliation while getting all this government gravy?
Get back to your Stepford Subsidiarity, forget you ever heard the term "Libertarian," and please post warning signs and GPS coordinates so nobody ends up in your Stepford by accident!
You may not like the program, but it is a legal, a legally operated program, and a legally funded program.
Do I personally approve of the parents sending their gay kid to this program? No, I don't, in particular, since I am a gay man myself.
Nevertheless, this decision was for the parents to make, even if it was the wrong decision. It isn't your decision and it isn't the government's decision.
So Law = Right. Sounds more like Totalitarian Legal Positivism than Libertarianism.
Look, even the Libertarian Party Platform acknowledges that there are limits to what parents can do to their children.
Quoting from the 2022 Platform:
Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs, provided that the rights of children to be free from abuse and neglect are also protected.
And, yes, this goes for any parent that forces any mentally or physically mutilating procedure on children!
Now either recognize or back to Stepford with you!
“Law = Right” is the principle YOU advocate, since YOU want the government to define what is right and wrong and then impose that standard on parents.
I’m perfectly happy to say “I consider Christian indoctrination camps to be wrong, but that’s none of the business of the government”.
That's because "right" and "wrong" are not something the government ought to decide in a free society. If you give government that power, sooner or later, it ends up being the government that sends gay kids to abusive labor camps to "cure" them, or castrates them outright.
What I recognize is that you are a totalitarian and a fool.
Words have meanings. Learn them, Dummy!
Yes, words have meaning, and you are using lies and equivocation in your propaganda for progressive and authoritarian viewpoints.
Define "mental mutilation."
If you believe, rightly, that adults should not be legally allowed to mutilate the bodies of children, then presumably you are enthusiastically opposed to so-called "gender affirmation procedures" for alleged "trans youth."
But, she says, they ended up "not being assholes. They were like, 'Hey, we have to take you here. We don't really know what the situation is. And we don't want to….This is our job.'"
Yeah, they sound like assholes to me.
I wish the human anatomy had nastier body parts to describe them.
“Is sending kids into the wilderness really the best way to keep them off Pornhub?”
If your goal is to unplug kids from technology in general, there’s no better place than the wilderness (granted it’s actual wilderness and they don’t have smartphones, Wi-Fi, etc.).
If your goal is to remove them from easy access to porn in any form of media, based on my experience as a Boy Scout, there’s no where you could send them to really escape it.
Edit: and now to go back and read the other 350+ comments.
If Elon Musk or another tycoon wises up and spends some coin on satellite-based Internet, there will indeed no place on the Planet without Internet service. Some distant places in the veld of Africa have already skipped the Copper wires and Coax entirely and get the Internet via satellite.
So, yeah, these sanctimonious assholes who drop trow and bear young and then farm out caring for and loving their children to prison camp franchises are living in a fucking delusional dream world.
...
So pretty much the same story as drug rehab.
No, no, no. It's worse.
Some degree of risk, lack of hygiene, lack of food, interpersonal conflict (“violence”) is to be expected at wilderness camps; in fact, experiencing that is the point of such camps.
If the conditions at the camp violate the law, then the company and individuals should be prosecuted. That’s what we have a legal system for. So far, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of any actionable wrongdoing.
These were parents sending their own kid to this camp. Other kids are sent to these camps by the legal system as an optional alternative to incarceration. And people operate these camps because there is a demand for them. How is any of that so hard to grasp from a libertarian point of view?
Many thanks for that great post on the Moronic Mormonic Republic of Utah!
You know, if this nation ever goes total Balkans and breaks up, Utah will be like the Iran and ISIS territory of the former United States, with refugees galore fleeing for their lives to anyplace freer!
Again, you didn't read a Goddamn thing about the violence and physical abuse, including sexual assault, the very thing anti-porn zealots say porn causes!
Back to Stepford with you!
Yes, it causes those things, and that is why the kids who are in treatment for it still occasionally engage in such behaviors even at camp. That’s why they are at the camp for 4-6 months. It takes time to change such behaviors. Obviously, none of that misconduct was serious enough to warrant legal action either, so the camp staff evidently kept it under control.
Furthermore, Cameron was raped by an adult co-worker of his father’s before he was sent to camp. Seems to me he was safer at camp than at home.
Cite about the porn. You won't find one credible study establishing a necessary casual connection between porn and violence.
Yes, Cameron was raped by his Father's co-worker after his Father told his co-eork that Cameron was Gay. This is why I suspected earlier that Cameron was exploited, abused, and victimized by everyone he met in life, whether family, classmates, townspeople making death threats, STAR camp counselors, camp inmates, and the government that subsidized these prison camps!
Cameron and everyone abused like him need some kind of a debriefing on life, to assure them there are still human beings that are worth a shit!
There is zero evidence that he was “victimized” by “STAR camp counselors, camp inmates, and the government”.
There is also zero evidence that the government “subsidized” these camps. Paying private companies for services and letting them use public lands like any other private company is not a "subsidy".
As you pointed out: words have meanings, and you keep deliberately misusing words.
Anybody who doesn't like Utah can already leave Utah.
Right now, Utah's population seems to be growing pretty significantly, which is more than can be said for most progressive or "liberal" states.