Federal Judge Blocks Florida's Anti-Drag Law
The ruling is the latest in a series of legal defeats for anti-drag laws.

On Friday, a federal judge in Florida blocked a law preventing minors from attending drag shows, ruling that the statute violated the First Amendment rights of an Orlando-based restaurant. While attempts at banning or restricting access to drag performances have swept local governments and state legislatures, most have failed to pass legal muster.
In May, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis (R) signed Senate Bill 1438 into law. The bill prohibited "any person from knowingly admitting a child to an 'adult live performance.'" Violating the law was a misdemeanor offense, and offending businesses could be fined and have their licenses revoked.
The bill defines an "adult live performance" as "any show, exhibition, or other presentation in front of a live audience which, in whole or in part, depicts or simulates nudity, sexual conduct, sexual excitement." The statute also prohibits exposing minors to "lewd conduct or the lewd exposure of prosthetic or imitation genitals or breasts" when it "predominantly appeals to a prurient, shameful, or morbid interest"; is offensive to prevailing standards of "suitable material or conduct for the age of the child present"; and when "taken as a whole, is without serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for the age of the child present."
The same month, the owners of Hamburger Mary's, a restaurant in Orlando, Florida, that frequently hosts drag events (including "family-friendly" drag performances), filed a lawsuit challenging the law. The suit alleged that the new law "seeks to explicitly restrict, or chill speech and expression protected by the First Amendment based on its content, its message, and its messenger." Further, Hamburger Mary's argued that the law was unconstitutionally vague and overbroad.
On Friday, a federal judge agreed, granting a preliminary injunction preventing enforcement of the law. Judge Gregory A. Presnell of the Middle District of Florida ruled that the statute was unconstitutionally vague, leaving the definition of terms like "lewd conduct" unclear, leading to uncertain law enforcement. Further, Presnell ruled that the restriction was "facially content-based," noting that "it does not restrict the attendance of children from all live performances, only those engaged in the portrayal of a specific, enumerated subset of content."
While laws attempting to shield children from content that is not obscene to adults, but would be obscene to minors, can be constitutional if narrowly tailored, Presnell notes that the Florida statute wasn't appropriately narrow and "does not allow for the exercise of parental discretion, stating plainly that '[a] person may not knowingly admit a child to an adult live performance,' explicitly foreclosing any defense based on a 'bona fide belief of a child's consent.'"
"Plaintiff contends that its fifteen years of incident-free, harmless drag shows demonstrates the absence of any substantial harm to Defendant or to the public interest," concluded Presnell. "Moreover, existing obscenity laws provide Defendant with the necessary authority to protect children from any constitutionally unprotected obscene exhibitions or shows."
This ruling is the latest in a series of legal orders striking down or blocking anti-drag legislation. While attempts to ban drag are increasingly popular, federal judges have consistently ruled that these performances, as well as other adult performances, are almost always protected by the First Amendment.
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Do drag shows in public spaces violate the NAP?
Show your work.
Is deliberate "lewd conduct or the lewd exposure of prosthetic or imitation genitals or breasts when it predominantly appeals to a prurient, shameful, or morbid interest” in front of children sexual assault, Jeff? Show your work.
I am not sure what you are imagining drag shows to be. But it's doubtful it matches up with reality.
This is one of those both sides positions I don't really understand. On one hand is the claim that laws like this are overly restrictive, while on the other hand the claim is what this law restricts doesn't even occur anyways.
I don't get the argument that these laws impede the right to have drag shows, but that drag shows don't engage in the behavior that the law prohibits.
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You can see the videos from just this weekend brandy. But you seemingly prefer ignorance
Or deliberate bullshitting.
It gets lonely in Moose Fuck, Canada.
I believe he is quoting what the law would actually ban.
I know. Which is not what I asked. And he knows that.
In order to determine a violation of the NAP, we need to know if you think lewd conduct or lewd exposure with children constitutes assault.
No, ML, this is what I asked:
Do drag shows in public spaces violate the NAP?
Perhaps you can give your answer to the question that I actually asked. Feel free to elaborate on your answer however you wish.
Depends on the drag show.
There you go. You refuse to answer the question that I pose, and instead try to be "clever" by asking a different question in response.
You don't answer my question because you CAN'T answer my question, because your entire schtick here is to direct the conversation into a place where you can scream HOW DARE YOU and emote uncontrollably and then call people names.
Die.
Your first post was a question to deflect a discussion. My God jeff. The dishonesty.
"You refuse to answer the question that I pose"
Until you acknowledge lewd sexual contact with a minor constitutes assault and is aggressive, how can I convince you it violates the NAP? Hence my question.
Also, the NAP is a principle, not a law.
You know this, which is why you avoided answering.
And now you are in the “let’s play stupid games to avoid answering the question” phase.
This is what you always do. Move the goalposts, play stupid games, reach in to your grab bag of fallacies, shout HOW DARE YOU and yell insults. But you don’t actually answer tough questions asked of you. BECAUSE YOU CAN’T.
I don't know how to make this any clearer to you, and I've said this to you at least a dozen times before:
LEWD CONDUCT AND LEWD EXPOSURE TO AND WITH CHILDREN CONSTITUTES ASSAULT AND IS A VIOLATION OF THE LIBERTARIAN NON-AGGRESSION PRINCIPLE. IT WARRANTS A VIOLENT RESPONSE FROM THE CHILD'S GUARDIAN, WHETHER THAT BE THE PARENT OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT.
Watch next week when Jeffy pretends yet again that his dishonest inquiry wasn't answered.
LEWD CONDUCT AND LEWD EXPOSURE TO AND WITH CHILDREN CONSTITUTES ASSAULT
Prove it.
Get out of downtown Toronto where you live with your mother and drive over to, say, Hamilton, and walk up to a small child in the park and pull your cock out, cytotoxic. See what happens. If you get maced and the cops get called and you end up in jail with a felony charge for sexual assault of a minor, you'll have your answer.
Here specifically is the game that you are playing.
You state:
Until you acknowledge lewd sexual contact with a minor constitutes assault
So you don't even bother to try to prove that "lewd sexual contact" is a type of assault. You just want me to try to answer "yes" or "no".
And if I answer "Yes", you will say: Well then duh, it's a violation of the NAP, because assault! And HOW DARE YOU support sexual assault of kids!
And if I answer "No", you will say: Well OF COURSE you're wrong, lewd sexual contact is a type of assault, and HOW DARE YOU support sexual assault of kids!
So how about this again. Why don't you actually try to prove your case, that you think "lewd sexual contact" is a type of assault that falls within a violation of the NAP. Go ahead, make your case. But I don't think you can. You would much rather play these games and yell HOW DARE YOU.
This is sadder than your bears in trunks fiasco, cytotoxic. Showing your cock to a person too young to legally consent to seeing it is assault by common law and statute in every civilized society going back for about 1600 years or so.
Now go ahead and refute that by demonstrating how showing your cock to an 8 year old is OK as long as his two daddies sign off on it so we can all have a round of giggles about what a pathetic faggot pedophile you are and we can move on with our lives.
Pedo Jeffy is admitting he doesn’t think lewd sexual activity with a minor is assault.
So yeah, he’s fucking kids.
Also anyone reading this before midnight eastern time needs to check out Emily Compagno on Gutfeld on foxnews.
He literally utilizes the same arguments as NAMBLA.
The drag shows I have been to aren't like that at all.
That was a direct quote from the bill in question. If the drag show didn't meet that criteria then there's nothing to worry about.
Emma and Jeff are trying to pretend that this was about drag in general rather than inappropriate behavior with children.
They have a lot of drag bars in Dog Dick Georgia do they, shreek?
That's a question for libertarians. Why would you ask it here?
Poor sarcasmic. All that self-pity but nobody cares.
Why do I have the feeling Jeff goes to playgrounds and flashes kids.
Yes jeff it does. NAP doesn't require only physical assault. If someone called up your employer and told them you are a pedophile they are not physically harming you but you would consider it a violation. Adult nudity towards kids is seen as aggression and a violation of public spaces. Not everyone is a sick fuck like you jeff.
He seems to have joined a sorority.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12218911/University-Wyoming-sorority-slams-sisters-suing-6ft2-260lb-trans-member.html
I'm guessing this lawsuit will be reported as conservatives waging a culture war.
Seeing coverage of pride parades from the weekend, I'm sure that's what's happening. The trolling "We're coming for your children", the naked men in the streets in front of kids, all if it is like Antifa throwing bottles of piss at protesters, hoping they'll get angry so they can be seen on video looking like the aggressor.
To the extent that children have no rights, yes.
What's the age at which they gain them?
Do not give me "spectrum of maturity" BS. I want a hard delineation.
Of course children have rights. They are not property.
Youre pro abortion first of all. If not a right to life then what rights?
Second they have limited rights which is why they have parental guardians dumdum.
I know the end game for you is the right to fuck children, but this sophist tempering of your end goal is getting tiresome.
Children do not have full faculties and can not give full informed consent. They can't sign contracts. They can't do many things.
You will never understand as you will always be childless. And thankfully that is the case.
Most dragsters do not have space for trunk bears, so it's probably ok with the NAP.
>>Do drag shows in public spaces violate the NAP?
your John Cleese show would be Fawlty Premises
He'd be hanging out with Biggus Dickus.
If they don’t violate the NAP then the libertarian answer is clear – they should not be prohibited by the state.
But I am sure that will not stop our conservative pals around here from trying to argue that they should be illegal anyway.
your drag shows in public spaces falls well short of describing the retarded law.
By "public spaces", I mean not just public property, but also places of public accommodation, like this particular restaurant.
Weird use of the legal term of public accommodation which legally requires some to interact with others.
Joe Biden taking bribes from foreigners doesn’t violate the NAP.
Neither does Trump having his own Presidential records.
Are you seriously arguing against the NAP? Here?
Bribery is a type of fraud.
If there is going to be any state, there are going to be state secrets. We can argue all day whether or not Trump's documents in the golden toilet constituted "state secrets" but to the extent that they were, then it's justified for the state to have them back. Plus, they weren't his property.
No lardass, he's arguing that the shit you spend 95% of your life shitting your 6XL Victoria's Secret underwear over isn't a violation of the NAP either, but you only seem to give a shit in the very particular instance of adult men showing their cocks to children, which is part of a rather disturbing pattern whereby you have taken up the burden of defending any and every instance of adult men showing their cocks to children, because you're a faggot pedophile in addition to all the rest of your wonderful qualities. Luckily you're a morbidly obese fatass piece of shit, so the kids can pretty easily outrun you.
Yeah, public spaces violate the NAP regardless of what's happening on them. Taking people's taxes to finance public spaces and then telling them what will and will not happen on said public spaces is arguably a second (layer of) violation of the NAP.
I'll interpret "public spaces" here in your response as meaning "public property".
If you're going to stand on pure principle and state that government ownership of land itself is a violation of the NAP, then fine. But that necessarily leads to anarchism.
I view government ownership of property, from a libertarian perspective, as while it is technically a type of theft, it is a 'necessary evil' that can be justified on a utilitarian basis, just like some taxation, as long as that government is fulfilling its libertarian mission of protecting people's rights. I'll permit the government to own a courthouse on 'stolen' property if it means that courthouse is use to prosecute NAP violations and create a state of more or less ordered liberty that produces a better result than it would had the government not 'stolen' the property to build the courthouse.
Obviously lots of currently owned government property doesn't pass this simple libertarian test and should be regarded as theft. But there would be some, and if one accepts this argument at all, then the question of whether drag shows violate the NAP on public property would then logically correspond to whether those drag shows could legitimately occur on the property legitimately owned by the government.
And again, if the government is to own any property at all, it should be for the furtherance of prosecuting NAP violations and protecting people's rights. If there are nobody's rights being violated by the drag show then it seems to me that the government should permit it to occur, provided that it takes place at a suitable time and in a suitable venue. At least that is my current thinking on the matter.
Jeff... if this is your understanding of the NAP why do you claim GAC doesn't violate the NAP despite it requiring an estimated 1.5M in medical lifetime costs for a person who can not submit informed consent often on the back of taxpayers.
That view is oddly incompatible with your view about the government's ownership of the border and exercising control over who may and may not cross over it, fatass. Any comment on that, or are you too busy whacking your 3 inch microchode to the latest FBI honeypot?
Libertarianism champions what is sometimes characterized as the non-aggression principle (NAP) as its most fundamental tenet: initiating or threatening forceful interference with individuals and their property is wrong.
Yes. The drag queens are initiating or threatening forceful interference with individuals in that public arena. If the place is public and all are welcome, having the behaviour thrust upon them would be a violation of your sacred NAP.
The drag queens are initiating or threatening forceful interference with individuals in that public arena.
How so? If the public space here is a public accommodation on private property, then presumably the private property owner invited the drag performers onto the property and the patrons are free to come and go as they please. If the public space here is public property owned by the government, then you seem to be positing that there is a right not to have unwelcome behavior "thrust" upon them while on public property. I don't think that would be a very workable standard.
Take it up with 1600 years of common law precedence you lardass faggot pedophile. You do not, and have never had, an unlimited right to occupy public space, and your behavior and appearance can be restricted. Open a new tab in Tor browser and look up "tragedy of the commons" when you finish up with your latest kiddie porn video. Don't like tragedies of the commons? Well, have less commons. Although in this case the nature of the property is rather immaterial. Showing your cock to an 8 year old child is illegal regardless of the context.
You specifically said 'public spaces'. Now you are adding public accommodation on private property. Those are two different things. I would agree the private institution could invite whomever it wants to perform and attendees that show up and are uncomfortable have a personal obligation to leave.
If the public space here is public property owned by the government, then you seem to be positing that there is a right not to have unwelcome behavior “thrust” upon them while on public property
Yes. That would violate the NAP, would it not? Again. You asked a very specific question on violation. Not rights. Not a policy that would protect each and every one of us from things we do not care for. The NAP.
Would you agree that having unwelcome behavior that one does not want that is being initiated or threatened in a public arena is a violation?
Or do you want to move your position in another direction again.
I'll take this for my working definitions:
https://www.libertarianism.org/topics/non-aggression-principle
I have a hard time seeing how "unwelcome behavior" in general, drag show or not, would correspond to the forcible interference of an individual's person.
Now, I can see how, for example, if a drag queen (or anyone else) were to get up in your face and physically prevent you from going about your business, then that would be a NAP violation.
But if you are using, say, a public park, and there is also a drag show (or some other event) in the public park, and you don't want to participate in this event, and there is no force being exerted that is coercing you to participate in this event, then I can't see how simply having that event take place at the public park would be a NAP violation even if you find it 'unwelcome' or distasteful.
Another way to put it: could your argument be used to, say, justify banning 'hate speech' on public property? After all, isn't 'hate speech' the very definition of 'unwelcome conduct'? By your standard, would that be a NAP violation if the 'victim' were to unwittingly hear that 'hate speech'? I don't think we want to pursue that line of reasoning.
Do drag shows in public spaces violate the NAP?
Maybe the questions you should have asked is - CAN drag shows in public spaces violate the NAP? Because in your various tangential examples there are times when the answer is yes and times when the answer is no. Just take your latest:
Now, I can see how, for example, if a drag queen (or anyone else) were to get up in your face and physically prevent you from going about your business, then that would be a NAP violation.
You have seen examples of this in some of the twitter posts. The BDSM in the back of the truck, a thrusting man in a thong showing ass and packaged balls to a child. If I am walking my child down the street that this event happened to be playing out on, I have other reasons to be on the street, but can't avoid the domatrix(trax?) in the truck bed as I walk to my car. I am violated, my child is violated.
But if you are using, say, a public park, and there is also a drag show (or some other event) in the public park, and you don’t want to participate in this event, and there is no force being exerted that is coercing you to participate in this event, then I can’t see how simply having that event take place at the public park would be a NAP violation even if you find it ‘unwelcome’ or distasteful.
Yes, clearly this gives me a choice to not participate. And I can still agree that it does not belong in a place where there may be children, like a public park.
It’s more than likely a little subjective and highly dependent on the content, nature, and atmosphere. None of which should necessarily be forced on the public who have paid taxes to the municipalities that maintain public spaces.
Even for private spaces that are considered public accommodations, it’s not like we don’t already regulate what activities a minor can participate in.
I don’t see the problem with saying “these events/scenarios/shows/etc. are not suitable for minors.” We literally do that for all kinds of things already, and I find it weird that this is a hill you’re willing to die on.
None of which should necessarily be forced on the public who have paid taxes to the municipalities that maintain public spaces.
Well, see my response to mad.casual above. I reject the argument that the purpose of government-owned property is to serve the majoritarian will of either voters or taxpayers. If that were the case, then the majority of either could legitimately vote to, say, forbid free speech or forbid the exercise of fundamental liberty on public property.
I don’t see the problem with saying “these events/scenarios/shows/etc. are not suitable for minors.” We literally do that for all kinds of things already, and I find it weird that this is a hill you’re willing to die on.
I have no problem saying "they are generally not suitable for minors". But that is very different than saying that they should be banned by the state.
Do you know what tragedy of the commons is?
Youre ceding ground to the worst actor against the wishes of a majority. That is not freedom. It is a violation of the majority regarding aggression.
But the plain text of the law doesn’t ban them? Unless I haven’t read the full version (100% possible).
cytotoxic the lardass pedophile is just really pissed that there’s restrictions on where he can show his cock to 8 year old children and is malding about it because he’s a faggot.
No.
Yes. Corrupting kids damages them mentally and emotionally. Its aggression against them, and hence violates the NAP.
Drag shows for kids should be banned.
a federal judge in Florida blocked a law preventing minors from attending drag shows
If it was just Uncle Milty and Barry Humphries there'd be no issue, but it never is.
Also, it's not innocuous "drag shows" anyway, but "admitting a child to an 'adult live performance.'" defined as "any show, exhibition, or other presentation in front of a live audience which, in whole or in part, depicts or simulates nudity, sexual conduct, sexual excitement." and "lewd conduct or the lewd exposure of prosthetic or imitation genitals or breasts" when it "predominantly appeals to a prurient, shameful, or morbid interest".
Come on Jeff. Tell us why taking kids to any of the highlighted is okay, and how it's 'emotive' to oppose.
So, on another thread, you asked about people's belief in Sarc's intelligence. I didn't chime up because I've muted him. There's only so much "One side says The Sun rises in The East, the other side says The Sun sets in The West. Both things can't be true. BOAF SIDEZ!"
Reason's abjectly retarded stumbling from issue to issue and making the same stupid "Opinions I agree with are obviously correct!" is really getting to be the same way.
It really is to the point where I think the bigger problem with the AI is the degree of sub-AI human intelligence occupies our everyday society already. Specifically, if you could write the law to do whatever you factually need it to do and just ask ChatGPT to dress it up as whatever you think would win the favor of Reason/Emma Camp's/ENB's feeble, borderline-short-term-memory disorder, fundamentally-illogical and capricious minds and call it a day.
"[bans] any show, exhibition, or other presentation in front of a live audience which, in whole or in part, depicts or simulates female nudity, female sexual conduct, female sexual excitement" - Boos from ENB, Camp, and Reason: "Too vague!"
"[bans] any show, exhibition, or other presentation in front of a live audience which, in whole or in part, depicts or simulates gratuitous and demeaning female nudity, degrading female sexual conduct, male-oriented female sexual excitement"
- Cheers from ENB, Camp, and Reason: "Not too vague!"
"[bans] and show, exhibition, or other presentation in front of a live audience which, in whole or in part, depicts or simulates gratuitous and demeaning female or male nudity, degrading female sexual conduct, male-oriented female or female-oriented male sexual excitement"
- Boos from ENB, Camp, and Reason: "Too vague!"
They don't give a single shit about whether cis-women, cis-men, or trans-women and trans-men have a 1A-guaranteed right to strip in front of children... they don't even care that trans-women have a 1A-guaranteed right to strip in front of children and cis-women don't, unequally. They only care that DeSantis and Evul Kristian Kultural Konsurvatives are losing to (activist) district/circuit judges.
Exactly.
Tell us why taking kids to any of the highlighted is okay
You do understand the difference between "it's okay" and "it shouldn't be banned by the state", right?
You mean the argument you only use to protect the left? So you are against laws against gay conversion therapy? I can probably find those threads you agreed with it being outlawed. I mean you even support prosecution against self defense.
"You do understand the difference between “it’s okay” and “it shouldn’t be banned by the state”, right?"
Fair enough. Tell us why those highlighted items shouldn't be banned by the state.
Nope. You answer my question above and then I might consider answering yours.
I did. Your turn.
lol, above, all you did was assume your conclusion.
You prove yourself to be dumber and dumber every day.
You admitted you don’t think lewd sexual activity with a minor is assault. That’s pretty fucked up.
He's trying to figure out the best way to make "Because I'm a faggot pedophile and I want to show my cock to 8 year old children and I'm malding about it because you won't let me" sound like a vaguely libertarian principle.
Lots of 16-17yo boys headed to Cafe Risqué as we speak
So does this mean kids can now legally consume porn in Florida?
Only at peepshows.
Just orgies. Haven't seen reason advocate for online porn for kids yet.
They were literally just shitting their pants about a Texas law that would have made porn companies check ID on their websites a couple days ago. Porn for kids has been one of their pet issues going back to the mid 2000s.
Let’s say you brought a child to a live performance considered too explicit for a child, took photographs and video, and handed the child prints and the video. The judge says attending with the child is legal, even though distributing adult material to a child is clearly illegal. How does he reconcile that only one is protected? How can he consider the restriction vague when we can use the standard applied to print and video?
Besides this, almost all drag shows are comedy, singing, dancing, and lip-synching with no nudity. I don’t see how it’s chilling to ban kids from the dirtiest shows.
The goal and the idea of the law are understandable. But I worry more about the long-term effects of engaging in broad authoritarian governmental action to address societal behavior more than the concerns about kids at drag shows. One is something that will set a precedent and be around for a long time, the other is basically a fad and really just a political gotcha/virtue signaling game at this point that is likely to die away.
This law is specific to performing sexual acts in front of children. Children have always had limitations to freedom from drugs to firearms to medical decisions. This is well within the norm of restrictions common to societies.
Also the people who tend to be most pro exposing nudity to kids are non parents. It is quite amazing to see.
It's somewhat specific, but still has a broadness and vagueness to it.
I just start getting really skeptical of laws to combat societal behavior. Especially behavior that a kid can see on the internet, on TV, and at the movies every hour of the day.
Maybe I just come down on the thought that drag shows are just not much of a concern. And not nearly a concern enough to set precedent with moral enforcement laws.
The law is posted above. How is it vague? It is pretty clear. How would you have worded it?
How many pumps is too many before it becomes sexual? Do we have to prevent cheerleaders at professional sports from dancing provocatively? What's a shameful or morbid interest.
Also, it’s not innocuous “drag shows” anyway, but “admitting a child to an ‘adult live performance.’” defined as “any show, exhibition, or other presentation in front of a live audience which, in whole or in part, depicts or simulates nudity, sexual conduct, sexual excitement.” and “lewd conduct or the lewd exposure of prosthetic or imitation genitals or breasts” when it “predominantly appeals to a prurient, shameful, or morbid interest”.
Make your changes. How would the law be worded. If you’re going to say it can be better, prove it. How would you word it? Stop hand waiving.
Why am I making changes? I don't think the law is necessary as there are already laws on the books to combat this. And if indecent exposure laws aren't sufficient in this realm, then those need to be changed. Why do we need a law that basically acknowledges this behavior isn't indecent exposure, but it's of such nature to still be a problem? Again, cheerleaders at an NBA game can easily be argued to be violating this law.
My point is not wanting more laws to restrict people that are already mostly addressed by other laws in order to vaguely combat an issue that is so minimal as to barely even warrant attention?
Which laws on the books combat this? Which ones? Are they "vague" as well? This is literally the arguments that have been had regarding Florida. Kids being at drag shows with simulated sex acts such as the Christmas show. What the actual fuck?
And if indecent exposure laws aren’t sufficient in this realm, then those need to be changed.
This law is a change for a specific instance that activists claim are not indecent. Again. What the fuck?
Why do we need a law that basically acknowledges this behavior isn’t indecent exposure
Because it isnt being executed as such currently. Hence the change in law.
Again, cheerleaders at an NBA game can easily be argued to be violating this law.
Please provide the video evidence. I can give you tons from parades and drag shows. Just show me one.
My point is not wanting more laws to restrict people that are already mostly addressed by other laws in order to vaguely combat an issue that is so minimal as to barely even warrant attention?
This statement just makes zero sense as if it was already restricted it would be being cited.
This is a cop out argument and exactly what I've argued elsewhere. You've made zero rational arguments against the law especially as you claim the law already exists elsewhere making your argument against it moot.
"You’ve made zero rational arguments against the law"
Sure, whatever you need to tell yourself, JesseAz.
Lol. Wow.
Is this what you do now? Make vague counter arguments never specifying anything of substance?
Now? This retarded cunt has been running that shtick for years. All you have to do is get him going on Trump or some other issue where he's really invested. It's been instructive the last couple of years to find out just how many libertarians are really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really invested in being able to show their cock to 8 year old children.
Whatever you need to tell yourself, JesseAz.
And running a schtick? I can't even comprehend the illogic in that statement.
I went to 2 NBA games as a kid with my dad and my uncle. I never seen an NBA cheerleader's bare tits or pussy, and I wasn't allowed to stuff dollar bills in a G-string exposing their entire ass either.
But the law is broad enough to encompass the actions of cheerleaders. That's kind of the problem.
How many pumps is too many before it becomes sexual?
"Unless you can say 33 pumps by a man's groin to a child's face is sexual and 32 isn't you must accept all groin pumping by adults in children's faces. Otherwise, you'd have to ban football cheerleading too." - Inquisitive "I'm totally not wearing a skinsuit!" Squirrel.
Man, off to mute your psycho ass goes.
But then, how will you obliquely signal to me that you may or may not be OK with adults sexualizing children over Federalism depending on the details?
How will you continue to signal to me an others that you *know* yourself to be more intelligent than me, JesseAz, Nardz, or anyone else who disagrees with you?
His arguments make no rational sense at all. Every argument he has made has been to avoid actual discussions.
Yet, that's not true at all. It's sad how you all can't handle discussion.
Yet, that’s not true at all. It’s sad how you all can’t handle discussion.
Again, whom do you think you're fooling? Especially after your "Ugh, I can't even! I *mute* you!" retard performance theater performance.
Have you responded to one actual argument in this thread with a cogent argument not based on generic terms that are meaningless IS?
Your most firm argument is NBA cheerleaders apparently do sexual acts but you have yet to give an example.
Why are you unable to be specific? You've posited sophic arguments.
Lmfao, coming from the pedophile faggot who has to mute people instead of actually defend his retarded take that kids should be allowed to look at grown men's cocks. Chef's kiss.
I know you like being the attack dog JesseAz, but sacrificing the obvious to do so is bizarre.
If I have to explain to you that cheerleaders performing has a sexual basis, then you are trying to be purposefully obtuse on this matter.
I don't understand why you can't discuss in good faith. Is that just not something you can do?
Post your list so we can compare it to sarcasmic's and Episiarch/Bo Cara Esq. (dba Mike "White Mikey" Laursen). It'd be funny to see how much overlap there is where you Marxist faggot pieces of shit have to stay in your safe spaces because you can't defend your retarded takes.
Such insightful eloquence you have going here.
Is it really setting a precedent? It’s not like kids are allowed in Burlesque shows.
It's instructive about libertarianism that all of its adherents desperately need to show their cocks to 8 year old children, but don't really care so much that they aren't allowed to look at female strippers. Almost like it's a NAMBLA cult or something.
Yeah, this really needs a cultural solution, not a legal one. I think you are right and it is largely just the latest fad among people who think they are being clever somehow and enjoy what they see as freaking out more traditionally minded people. New laws shouldn't be necessary. Just more people saying "what the fuck is wrong with you?" to people who think kids ought to be exposed to more drag performances.
Yeah, this really needs a cultural solution, not a legal one.
IDK. I don't particularly care if the dude out fucking somebody's goats with his pants off is doing it ironically or just performatively/convincingly. It's still goat fucking.
More critically, as I repeatedly point out on the issue, there are limits as to what *adults* can do with other (semi-)naked adults in public gathering and these people rather specifically give precisely zero shits about those laws one way or the other. They aren't here to advance any libertarian aim. No non-aggression, no property rights, no contracts, no small government, not even pragmatic or utilitarian libertarian ideas like equality before the law. They don't give a shit.
This is rather plainly a continuation of 50 yrs. of the same "There is no agenda." except now it's in the background of Disney CEOs, Directors, HR Directors, Hiring managers, etc., etc. plainly stating "This is my/our Queering kids agenda..."
There is an agenda and the way to stop it is for people to stop accepting its encroachment into mainstream culture.
I don't know enough about this law to make a judgement on whether the decision was bad or good.
I don’t know enough about this law to make a judgement on whether the decision was bad or good.
Passed at the state (not federal) level? Check.
Didn't ban drag shows? Check.
Only banned drag shows with children in attendance? Check.
You don't have to be the One True Libertarian to see that the law doesn't fall well outside the bounds of porn or strip club (or alcohol or, apparently, even firearms) regulation, or MPRA/ESRB norms, or the norms of a Federated Republic.
You used to be better than this.
Well, I'm not a fan of a lot of firearms, alcohol or strip club regulations. But having seen the text now, I agree, it is well within the norms of the sorts of things that are regulated. I'd much rather be in a place where such laws are unnecessary, but it seems like that's not the world we're in right now.
What response is legally allowed in this case zeb? If not a law and a means to mitigate it, what response is valid? Any form of assault is not allowed in response. Yet youre ready to give up public spaces to the biggest kink. The legal response is done to prevent the violent response.
And done in rather explicit non-banning fashion.
The same fashion that Reason, from every. last. book. "ban" to still. saying. "Don't say gay" *consistently and falsely* conflates with outright bans to an insane degree.
It's plainly nothing to do with what's good for children, age of consent laws, equality between men, women, and trannies, who can pay whom for what with consent... none of it. It's purely, and at best, just OrangesManBad.
The arguments here are anarchist arguments. Nothing more. The hand waiving is just weird.
I've never denied being an anarchist, philosophically speaking.
And why I dont often argue against your views as you are open about it. Not true of everyone arguing from that side though. We simply disagree as I dont believe anarchy is freedom but a corruption of public space to the strongest or most vile. See San Francisco.
Not even anarchist. Cultural Revolutionary.
They don't want to tear down consent laws so that kids can buy handguns or enjoy actual free speech rights in school, both of which are unwaveringly in the Constitution while the sexualization of minors is inferred at best. They don't want to tear down consent laws so that kids can buy alcohol, enter into polygamous marriages, or consent to conversion therapy. All of which have a more longstanding and vague association with constitutionality.
At a more pragmatic level, they don't want to tear the system down because their movement almost certainly wouldn't survive without the special privilege and attention paid to it politically. If every trannie who got murdered was tossed on the bottom of a pile of murders under 100 other cases of black-on-black violence, which itself gets ignored? There would be no movement (and we might accidentally/incidentally pay more attention to larger, more broad problems).
Nope, they only want to tear the system down as much as tearing it down gets them their special carve out. If in exchange for the carve out The Left gets to bludgeon their opponents a little more? Well, that's just the will of The Peoples' Republic.
I don't know what you think I'm doing here. I'm not ready to give up anything. Nor do I like to jump to any firm conclusions.
I'm here to amuse myself and have discussions with people who I share somewhat of an ethical/moral basis with and try to figure things out. I don't think I know all the right answers. I might even make arguments I'm not sure are completely correct sometimes. This is a mostly anonymous internet forum, not my treatise on all my committed beliefs on everything.
Respect
Well said.
This really is where I'm at on the issue. Cultural solution seems much more preferable than a legal solution, which is what we are starting to see.
What cultural action is legal? The law is a cultural solution especially of public spaces.
What cultural action is legal? I don't understand the question.
Legal is passing laws, rules, and regulations. Cultural is fighting in the realm of ideas and behavior, but not using government dictate to do so.
Realm of ideas mean Jack shit if you can just go to a park and jack it in front of a kid. The cultural solution is the legal solution. Which is why people vote. Or else youre just giving way to the biggest kink. Especially when assault is already outlawed.
I for one would be fine if the law was no assault of someone whips it out in front of my kid. But I doubt you would be okay with that as your solution is a meaningless one.
The most hilarious part is you calling the pretty explicit law vague while calling for the ultimate vague response in "cultural solution."
"Realm of ideas mean Jack shit if you can just go to a park and jack it in front of a kid"
This already isn't legal. This is what I'm talking about as concerns straw man and hyperbole.
And if you don't understand the difference between laws being vague and simple cultural battles, I can't help you.
Yet we just had fucking nude bikers waiving to little kids in a fucking parade. We had sex acts in front of kids in Florida, hence this law. Youre ignoring reality.
Every comment you’ve made in this thread can apply to a law against jacking it in front of a kid.
You apparently agree there is a line but you are seemingly against codified the law as the majority of a culture sets. Again a meaningless statement. Virtue signaling at best.
And if you don’t understand the difference between laws being vague and simple cultural battles, I can’t help you.
The fucking law has been posted twice in this thread and you refuse to say where it is vague or how to make it less vague.
Jeff like argumentation.
Almost like Inquisitive Squirrel is yet another libertarian NAMBLA faggot whose only real concern is his ability to show his cock to 8 year old kids or something.
You really do engage in obfuscation and purposeful ignorance and just pretend what has or hasn't been said. It's fascinating, honestly.
"The fucking law has been posted twice in this thread and you refuse to say where it is vague or how to make it less vague."
I've actually specifically posted the language and asked you to explain, but you deflected from it and didn't address it. I will ask again: what is a shameful or morbid interest? What is depicting a sexual conduct? Does that include twerking?
"Every comment you’ve made in this thread can apply to a law against jacking it in front of a kid."
But this simply isn't true. Pretending that there are not indecent exposure and sexual harassment laws on the books already is just strange.
"You apparently agree there is a line but you are seemingly against codified the law as the majority of a culture sets. Again a meaningless statement. Virtue signaling at best."
What? I'm struggling to even understand this statement. The line is already addressed by other laws such as indecent exposure and sexual harassment.
Whom do you think you're convincing with this retardation?
Women dancing naked in front of kids in Florida has been generally illegal for over 50 yrs.
If you really are opposed to long-term, broadly-authoritarian litigation, you really have abjectly failed jumping on the bandwagon to defend < 10% of the population *after* the issue came up after DeSantis got elected (potentially even just the second time).
Just like ENB, Camp, and the others, it's plainly obvious you don't give a shit about long-term effects of broadly authoritarian laws, you only invoke that specter the way 90s-era Conservatives were called out for invoking FUD in opposition to gay marriage. Except the 90s-era conservatives actually wanted to keep things the way they are/were rather than trying to wear conservatism as a skin suit.
I don't get how or why you people imagine you're pulling off the deception.
This is like when they demand no new laws on who you can have as customers or regulating Christians working for religious businesses while ignoring the CRA.
Society already has these laws. I never see people argue to remove the laws already present, just not regulate their kinks.
And here it is related to children in public spaces for the most part.
Society already has these laws. I never see people argue to remove the laws already present, just not regulate their kinks.
And this is what kills me about quasi-libertarians like Zeb, seemingly, granting them leeway. They (LGBTQ+ rights advocates) don’t care. And, in many, many ways, it’s more obvious that they don’t care.
I'll have you know I am the One True Libertarian.
I always knew you were sarcs sock.
No, that's not nearly interesting enough. I think the really shocking twist will be when you are revealed to be Sarc's sock and he's just been fighting with himself in some kind of weird, self-hating split personality mode for the past few years.
performance art of the highest quality.
I have never been drunk enough to lower to his level.
No, I am the One True Libertarian! And also Spartacus.
Damn you Libertarians sure are a contentious bunch.
Wait, this screed is directed at me? It's apparent I don't give a shit about long-term effects of broadly authoritarian laws? Convincing with retardation?
I seriously don't even know where to begin with this psycho rant.
Apparently, by your own telling, you need to learn how conversation threading works first.
I seriously don’t even know where to begin with this psycho rant.
Right. Specifically written text of a specifically-written contemporary law and you're sure it's wrong because of your FUD. 50+ yrs. of far more broadly written law and you "just can't even, don't even know where to begin."
You're a transparent half-wit pretending to be concerned about the far-reaching implications of a law that isn't as vague and far-reaching as at least 30-40% of the laws on the books.
Where did I say I am sure the law is wrong?
Do you suffer from some type of chemical imbalance that has you going all half-cocked and straw man oriented in response to the slightest comment you disagree with?
Seriously, I don't understand where your unhinged anger is coming from? How are you so angry at a comment on a libertarian website that simply explained a concern that government power and government dictate is more worrisome than insignificant societal events that occur?
Where did I say I am sure the law is wrong?
So you're worried about the long-term effects of a law you think is correct?
Notice how he keeps retreating to blaming those people asking him to clarify and specify his argument as being angry. Meanwhile he mutes you. Lol.
It’s nowhere near as clear and unvague as “cultural”
It's funny how you have to run off and mean girl with others. My lord. The insecurity.
The 1965 Civil Rights Act says "shut the fuck up, dimwit"
Oh look, another one of the intelligent commenters here.
Seriously, the amount of anger on a libertarian website for a comment that is concerned about the power of government is fucking amazing at this point.
Kind of shows you how little libertarianism there is in the world. Everyone is cool with government power when it goes in the direction they want. Sad, but obviously quite true.
You are deploying a nirvana type fallacy. The law is bad, but you won’t say why. The law is vague but you won’t say how. You say a cultural solution should happen which is a passed legislative law, but you again deny the law.
Basically the only option left is losing public spaces to the wildest kink.
If I’m wrong explain clearly what solution you have. Simply dismissing all responses is not a solution. Stomping feet and saying no is not a solution.
"Basically the only option left is losing public spaces to the wildest kink."
Yeah, not at all what I'm saying. The lack of calm and not hyperbolic or straw man laden discussions here at Reason is just phenomenal
It is literally what you are saying because you refuse to define cultural solution or what response is valid. The cultural response is law. It always has been. But you are against that.
On over a dozen posts now you have yet to clarify a response you would accept while dismissing any and all other responses.
What was hyperbolic? What was a strawman? Can you even clearly state that?
This is jeff level argumentation by you.
I can’t help that you are choosing not to actually read what I write. I know it’s common practice here to do that, but it gets insufferable.
I have issues with government power. That’s my default. Why it’s not more the default for people here, I will never know. That said, a law that basically says it’s illegal to take kids to a live show that depicts sexual behavior is broad and concerning. Does this include the theater? Does this include cheerleaders dancing in skimpy clothes at halftime? It doesn’t prevent non-live action shows, which rings contradictory to me. Is it fine for a kid to watch MTV and see sexual actions on TV? I watched Christian conservatives try this kind of garbage when I was young. I watched Tipper Gore scream about music lyrics. I’m getting concerned this is becoming the same thing.
If next courts find that the law isn’t vague or overly broad, then there you have it. It will be good to go. Heck, this court only imposed an injunction, it hasn’t even entered a final ruling yet.
I just get tired of always having to resort to more laws and government every time non-issues arise. Moreover, the more we get into governing so many aspects of societal behavior, I just know the left is going to do the same thing. And I really don’t want that at all.
I have literally read and posted your own words in response and you have yet to do what I stated above.
Are you a teenage girl?
Am I a teenage girl? Good lord, man. You're just getting embarrassing.
I can’t help that you are choosing not to actually read what I write.
I see you've met Jesse.
The bill defines an "adult live performance" as "any show, exhibition, or other presentation in front of a live audience which, in whole or in part, depicts or simulates nudity, sexual conduct, sexual excitement." The statute also prohibits exposing minors to "lewd conduct or the lewd exposure of prosthetic or imitation genitals or breasts" when it "predominantly appeals to a prurient, shameful, or morbid interest"; is offensive to prevailing standards of "suitable material or conduct for the age of the child present"; and when "taken as a whole, is without serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for the age of the child present."
What Jesse and ML and mad casual are saying is that the law isn’t vague and wouldn’t ban the theatre or cheerleaders, just from the plain reading of the text that I posted.
Inquisitive Pedophile knows all that, he's just malding that his faggot friends in Florida can't flash their flaccid phallus at juveniles anymore.
And yet a judge is already concerned about it being vague. Laws like this have to be narrowly tailored. This law seems to start falling outside of that.
How does a cheerleader performance not fall under and show or exhibition that depicts sexual conduct? What is a shameful or morbid interest?
With laws trying to address bad societal behavior like this, they have to be narrow and specific. Limit the statute with direct language like saying two or more people can't simulate sexual acts. This removes a lot of dancing and performance art that could be wrapped up in the current definition. Limit to preventing the use of lewd conduct or the lewd exposure of prosthetic or imitation genitals or breasts. This continues with the legal line test that the law can engage in with regards to nudity.
How does a cheerleader performance not fall under and show or exhibition that depicts sexual conduct? What is a shameful or morbid interest?
That's not "basically" what the law says, it defines literally every term quite specifically. And you've been commenting here since way back during the 8 years you spent gargling Obama's chocolate ballsack and never once had a peep to say about laws that are worded the exact same fucking way that prohibit children from going to bars, strip clubs, pornographic theaters, tobacco and vape shops, etc, etc. It's ironic that you keep dropping the word "concern" in every post since what you're doing is concern trolling.
When your concern about the power of government only ever gets exercised when the issue is grown men showing their cocks to little kids it demonstrates something about your preferences and priorities, NAMBLA faggot.
So the law is “overbroad” but also too specific in that it does not bar children from all live performances, just those that advance prurient interests.
I see clumps of spaghetti clinging to a wall, and a judge being willfully obtuse.
It also makes a mockery of age restrictions in law. Either they are good, or they aren't. And if not, child porn should be legal (I'm anti-CP, for the record).
Deleted for repeat.
If only you'd done that with the other 40 retarded posts saying the exact thing over and over again in this thread, NAMBLA faggot.
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
Nope.
Conservatives live by example on this issue. Sex should only involve a man, his wife, and the pool boy.
Why would a conservative want the wife involved?
Your sex life only involves you and the pool boy.
And in this case the pool boy is actually a small child in a kiddie pool.
Good one.
It would have been even better if he’d posted more of those dark web links to hardcore child pornography though, amirite Episiarch/Bo Cara Esq.?
How was the last NAMBLA meeting, anyway? Did you take your imaginary kids with you, or just fly solo this time?
Not everyone can live up to your shining moral example and get banned from a website for posting dark web links to hardcore child pornography, shreek.
sophomore civics class trip to nearest Spearmint Rhino ...
>>"Plaintiff contends that its fifteen years of incident-free, harmless drag shows demonstrates the absence of any substantial harm to Defendant or to the public interest"
a federal judge thought this Mikecite was logic.
So, “Mikecite” is a tacit admission that I provide cites to back up my claims, unlike many other commenters here.
Have no idea how the quote you have here is a “Mikecite”, though. It’s not a cite.
Wow. No we are making fun of your requests cites after been given them dozens of times retard.
LMAO!
I just want to know where the hell this judge was when I was using a fake ID to try to get in at the strip club. I had rights, goddammit!
You were a male seeking to objectify biological women, an unwholesome and immoral undertaking, so unlike the holy drag show.
Hey, I'm OK with the female strippers starting off wearing business suits if that's what it takes...
lol at the legislators and governors who think they're in charge of the laws protecting minors in their own states.
Gullible idiots.
Federal judges will show you who's in charge. COMPLY.
Sorry, we live in a federal system with a constitution.
They would have covered this in con law if you had actually gotten that law degree you lied about for 7 years, Episiarch/Bo Cara Esq., but "federalism" actually means that we are a "federation" of independent states. It doesn't mean that the federal government gets to override all state decisions. Hope that helps! Impress your friends with this tidbit at your next NAMBLA meeting, faggot.
Gregory A. Presnell (born November 10, 1942)[1] is a senior United States district judge of the United States District Court for the Middle District of Florida.
On June 8, 2000, he was nominated by President Bill Clinton to a new seat on the United States District Court for the Middle District of Florida
In June 2023 Presnell granted a preliminary injunction in a case challenging the constitutionality of Florida's statutory ban on drag show performances. He ruled that the statute both failed to survive strict scrutiny, which is necessary since it regulated speech on the basis of content, and that it was vague and over-broad.
-From Wikipedia
Hmm, what would the judge say about a law that prohibits children from seeing a show that includes a bunch of guys dressed as libertarians singing songs that promote limited government and free markets?
So, for Reason employees, I guess this means you can take your kids to Camelot (over on M Street)! After all, this learned judge has decided that dancing at titty bars is just free speech. Who knew?
Now, about contemporary tipping practices....
LOL. I’m not sure what ideas you have about the Reason staff, but it could be instructive to listen to the Reason Roundtable podcast: – Only two of them live in DC. Of those two, KMW, the only one with kids, has been taking them to visit various churches lately. – Matt Welch and Gillespie live in New York. Gillespie’s kids are grown and Welch tends to take his kids to museums. – The much-hated-around-here lives in Ohio or something like that, and has a kid that is about one year old.
Not creepy at all that you cyberstalk these people to the extent of knowing how they spend their private time with their families, Episiarch/Bo Cara Esq.
If you don't like drag shows, DON'T GO TO ONE.
This isn't rocket science.
“If you don’t like having sex with kids, then dont”. If you don’t like slavery, then don’t own slaves.
All this conservative hand-wringing about “think of the children”.
The only people taking their kids to drag shows are progressive parents who are doing it because it signals their progressive bonafides and pisses off conservatives.
I would never take my kids to a drag show, but I can’t see it being of any interest to them.
Yeah, it's so weird that conservatives would be concerned about adults grooming their own children for sexual abuse, Episiarch/Bo Cara Esq. Next thing you know they'll be passing laws saying you have to, like, feed your kids and not beat them and shit.
That doesn't always work though, shreek. For example, nobody here in the Reason comments wanted to see dark web links to hardcore child pornography, but you spammed them all over an article's comments until you got your original Sarah Palin's Buttplug account banned and got the entire thread purged from the Reason servers.
funny how the ltbgtqxzy don't do drag shows at nursing homes..just focused on public libraries huh? Womans stripping on floats during the 4th of July parade is something to see..opps doesn't happen.
PHOTOS: Fairfax Co. seniors celebrate Pride Month with drag show at retirement community
https://wjla.com/news/local/fairfax-county-seniors-celebrate-pride-month-with-drag-queen-show-at-retirement-community-fountains-washington-house-watermark-alexandria
Clearly, they're trying to turn Granny gay. Maybe they can convince Gramps to chop off his dick, it's not like he's using it anymore anyway, amirite folks?
I find it laughable that conservative culture warriors are acting like chopping off one’s penis is ever going to be something that appeals to a lot of males.
It is also laughable that they don’t seem to realize that drag and transitioning to being a woman are very different things: transvestites are men who are keeping they’re penises.
It's not, that's why NAMBLA faggot pedophiles like you and cytotoxic have to start exposing kids to this shit when they're 4 or 5 years old so that you can distort their mental health, self image, and sexuality. Otherwise your 0.001% sex cult with a 50% suicide rate wouldn't last more than a generation.
Pretty sure they're not all that confused about this either, Episiarch/Bo Cara Esq. That's why they oppose letting grown men with cocks and balls who went through male puberty play on women's sports teams. Because the cock and balls and the male puberty kind of make a difference.
Have you ever even accidentally stumbled upon a point? You'd think by the law of large numbers a retarded NAMBLA faggot pedophile who spends 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, posting at the same political blog might do so at least once just by random chance.
On the bright side. Maybe this will get rid of the notion that children are the property of the State. Although; I have very serious doubts that is going to materialize in the left and when it doesn't (double standard) it can correctly be marked as leftard indoctrination.