What 'Freedom' Means to Ron DeSantis
There are some jarring contradictions in the Florida governor's pitch to voters.

About 40 minutes into a whirlwind speech, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis seemed to stumble upon something resembling a thesis statement for his vision of conservatism.
"We understand that freedom is not just about the absence of restrictions," DeSantis said. "We have to understand that the threats to freedom are not simply a result of what happens in legislatures. Yes, you gotta win those fights, [but] the left is trying to impose its agenda through a wide range of arteries in our society, including corporate America."
DeSantis talks a lot about freedom, and even more about the supposed threats to it. For the governor, those seem to lurk everywhere, from drag shows to Disney and from undocumented immigrants to corporate "diversity, equity, and inclusion" efforts. In his new book, titled The Courage To Be Free, and in speeches like the one he gave on April 1 to a crowd of local elected officials and conservative activists in central Pennsylvania, DeSantis portrays Florida as a place that's been able to withstand the myriad assaults on freedom because he's been willing (and eager) to deploy the power of the state.
But he rarely offers much in the way of a definition of freedom, preferring instead, one assumes, to let everyone in the audience define the thing for themselves. When he does get into specifics, it's usually to draw some telling distinctions.
"For years, the default conservative posture has been to limit government," he writes in the new book. That idea must be discarded, he adds: "Elected officials who do nothing more than get out of the way are essentially green-lighting these institutions to continue their unimpeded march through society."
This is no small thing. For ages, conservatives have often echoed the libertarian idea that government is the greatest threat to Americans' freedom. DeSantis postulates a different idea: What if it isn't?
Judging from the reactions of those few hundred conservatives who gathered on April 1 in the ballroom of the Penn Harris Hotel in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania, this is an appealing message. DeSantis got a warm reception and earned several extended ovations—the longest and loudest, by far, coming after he promised to support legislation in Florida to revoke medical licenses from doctors who perform gender-affirming surgeries on minors.
At the risk of stating the obvious, that's a limitation on Floridians' freedoms. Imposing such limits has been a recurring element of DeSantis' term. He is now pushing for even more, including felony charges for anyone who shelters or employs undocumented immigrants and a new ban on abortion after just six weeks of pregnancy. It's a tricky thing to sell this impulse to regulate individuals' choices as a campaign to protect freedom. But that's what DeSantis is trying to do at events like the Pennsylvania conference.
At this stage of his still-unofficial campaign, such events serve as an opportunity to run through the material that will eventually find its way into a regular stump speech—like a comedian trying out new bits in a small comedy club to see what lands and which punch lines need more work. This isn't the polished, final version of DeSantis' argument to voters, but it's a prototype for stump speeches that he could be giving by year's end.
And some of it is clearly in need of reworking. DeSantis' pitch for a conservatism that wields the state's power against such perceived threats might sound workable in sound bites and bumper stickers, but it causes some jarring contradictions when spelled out in more detail.
That's most apparent when DeSantis talks about education. Take, for example, this section from DeSantis' speech in Pennsylvania. Please note that there are no ellipses.
Every parent in Florida has a right to send their kid to the best school that they can, and so we have universal school choice in Florida. We have 1.3 million students in choice programs. I signed legislation on Monday which is going to expand that, and so we've not only done more for school choice than anybody in the history of Florida, we've had the largest expansion of school choice on my watch of anybody in the history of America and probably anybody in the history of the world, if you think about it.
We're proud of doing that, but we also want to make sure that our schools are focused on what matters, and not going off on ideological tangents—and so we have banned critical race theory in our K-12 schools.
This in a nutshell is the terminal problem with DeSantis' understanding of freedom. You can have the freedom to send your kid to any school you'd like in Florida—as long as it's a school that teaches a curriculum the governor approves.
That's not merely redefining freedom to mean something other than the absence of restrictions. It's an affirmative argument for those restrictions, wrapped in a promise that the right kinds of people—those who agree with DeSantis about what should be taught in schools—will continue to enjoy freedom even while it is denied to others.
This same problem pops up when DeSantis talks about immigration. He's happy to tout Florida's status as a refuge from "Faucian dystopia" during the pandemic, and he has no trouble recognizing that the state's population boom has translated into positive economic growth. "We've served as the promised land for Americans who have been disenchanted with left-leaning government," he said in his Pennsylvania speech before rattling off a list of Flordia's impressive economic indicators.
It's clear to DeSantis that more people moving to Florida has been great news.
Minutes later, he turned his attention to national immigration policy. "We've been very tough on immigration," DeSantis said. Then he rattled off another list, this time of ways in which Florida has cracked down on undocumented immigrants, including his 2021 stunt that involved flying a few dozen of them from Texas to Martha's Vineyard.
If more people moving to Florida is great for the state, why didn't DeSantis fly those immigrants to Jacksonville or Miami instead? The unspoken but implied answer—like the answer to the broader question about who gets to enjoy freedom—seems to be that it depends on who is coming to the state. The right kinds of people are fleeing COVID authoritarianism and overbearing governments in blue states; the wrong kinds of people are fleeing authoritarian governments in other parts of the world. The crucial distinction has to do with the nationalities on their passports, or perhaps with their skin color or native language.
It's at least a little ironic for DeSantis to draw lines based on such characteristics. His great-great-grandmother arrived in America just months before the Immigration Act of 1917 would have banned her entry to the country, according to an investigation by The Tampa Bay Times. Though she could not read or write at the time, her great-great-grandson is now contemplating a run at the White House.
That's the value of freedom. It's something that DeSantis ought to spend some time thinking a little more deeply about before he makes it the centerpiece of a possible presidential campaign.
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Not always. I think the 2022 elections gave us several examples.
https://twitter.com/TheRabbitHole84/status/1645489216476856321?t=tJUnGzlHwp3AXExJ6XTHpw&s=19
Women, particularly Democratic women, are more intolerant of different viewpoints and thus more likely to block individuals with different views.
[Link]
If Trump wins he will lose in the general election. He has 0% chance of winning because more than 50% of voters will not vote for him no matter who he runs against. There is no way around it. DeSantis is by far the best positioned to win in the general. It’s not even close.
The Republicans better wise up and figure this out or it’s going to be two more years of Biden and then two years of Kamala.
So how much did this sockpuppet win betting on the last election?
No Republican will win. Not ever again. We don't have real elections, and there is no sign that will be changed.
he promised to support legislation in Florida to revoke medical licenses from doctors who perform gender-affirming surgeries on minors
Boehm apparently is in favor of child abuse.
Another hit piece on DeSantis. Whoda thunk it??
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I see Boehm is starting the week off with another DeSantis hit piece.
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Your moniker is all that needs to be said in reply to this DeSantis hit piece #107. The role of government is not only to get out of the way, it is also to defend you from private actors who seek to restrict your freedom.
This in a nutshell is the terminal problem with DeSantis' understanding of freedom. You can have the freedom to send your kid to any school you'd like in Florida—as long as it's a school that teaches a curriculum the governor approves.
One is not required to send their kids to public schools, idiot. School choice means you get help to go to private or parochial schools. Duh.
How is this a "hit piece"? Those 2 words aren't in the article.
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The Squirrel showed up to spin one of his greatest hits. It's a hit piece.
3 out of 5 stars!
Yes, because he pettifogged, but then forgot to sealion.
Cite?
You should also have asked for a cite.
Everyone knows Hit Pieces are stamped HIT PIECE instead of containing those words in the article, dummy
Parody, obviously a good imitation as you fell for it, no matter how much Mike Liarson states otherwise.
https://reason.com/2022/09/27/for-florida-gov-ron-desantis-political-stunts-are-more-important-than-substance/ and
https://reason.com/2022/09/21/are-ron-desantis-migrant-flights-legal/
Ass POTUS, DeSatan will be forcing USA taxpayers to trick and ferry billions upon brazilians of sub-Brazilians from Brazil to Botswana, and to deport illegal sub-Martians from Mars to Uranus! Ass long ass the illegal Martians SUFFER-SUFFER-SUFFER, red-meat-hungry socons and troglodytes will be DELIGHTED to spend those extra tax dollars! Butt I for one think that illegal Martians are intelligent beings, too, and hope that they will NOT suffer on Uranus, from too many foul odors, etc.!
DeSatan… SPEAKS to me! Get Thee behind me, DeSatan!
Scienfoology Song… GAWD = Government Almighty’s Wrath Delivers
DeSatan loves me, This I know,
For DeSatan tells me so,
Little ones to GAWD belong,
We are weak, but GAWD is strong!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!
DeSatan loves me, yes indeed,
Makes the illegal sub-humans bleed,
Protects me for geeks and freaks,
I LOVE to pay taxes, till my wallet squeaks!
PUNISH Disney, I’ll PAY for their pains,
Ass long ass DeSatan Blesses our gains!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!
DeSatan expels the low-lifes to Venus,
Moves them ANYWHERE, with His Penis!
His Penis throbs with His Righteousness,
Take no heed, He says, of His Frighteousness!
ALL must be PUNISHED, they say!
So never, EVER be or say gay!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!
Our USA taxes must PAY The Way, He may say,
To EXPORT the illegal Mars aliens, every day!
To Pluto, Jupiter, or Uranus, they must ALL go!
Oh, the places that the low-lifes will go, you must know!
The taxes we shall pay? Through the money, we must BLOW!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!
(If we did NOT do-doo, doo-doo-doo, ALL of this, then that them thar illegal Mars aliens WILL show up on OUR doors, in the formerly pure USA!!! We MUST keep them AWAY, far away, out in the Deep Dark Yonder!)
#MeInTheAss’CauseI’maGullibleLowBrowBlowHardConTard
#BeenTrumpledUnderfootForFarTooLong
What are you talking about? According to the leftist Commentators, this article doesn't exist
Lol.
So it seems. While I think Libertarianism is the most righteous of all the political ideologies, I think rigid adherence to its principles has horrible unsought consequences. Free markets are not free without a strict rule of law, free speech and noninterference from coercive government actors and massive control of information by self interested actors. Since these conditions will never be met, I'm with DeSantis and other America first and MAGA candidates. Without them we will descend into Marxism as so many counties have.
Maybe it has something do with DeSantis providing so many targets.
supposed threats to it.
So the last three years were something that happened to someone else?
Hell, I won't even get into the last 30.
It's amazing how short a memory we seem to have for what was done to everyone in places not Florida or Texas from 2020 to 2023.
That said, some of La Bohème's criticisms here are valid. DeSantis may be the best option we have for generally more liberty-oriented leadership, but he could be better.
Those of us who waste time voting always complain how bad our candidates are. The way to get better candidates or make the ones we get better is this process. Threading that needle between refining a workable candidate into a good one and making him nonviable through criticism is a tough job, but it has to happen now, in the early days. I'm not saying ether is Reason's agenda, but the outcome could be the same.
According to Bohm, the best way to advance the cause of liberty is to find the most anti-liberty candidate and vote strategically, but reluctantly, for him.
He specifically DeSantis, with examples. There's no way he's voting for him, reluctantly or otherwise.
I generally agree. I note that much of what he is doing at the schools level is not anti freedom. The existence of schools is anti-freedom. Directing the agents of the state employed by those schools to teach (or not teach) a specific curriculum is neither pro-, nor anti-freedom.
That is, unless you want to argue about whether the specific curriculum is pro-freedom or anti-freedom in its implications. In that case, DeSantis was advancing the cause of freedom.
Agree on the public schools.
"DeSantis may be the best option we have for generally more liberty-oriented leadership, but he could be better."
There's a few things that DeSantis has said that have made me go "woah". Like his call to end jury unanimity for Florida death penalty cases. He seems to have (comparitively) more authority-minded tendencies than Trump. He's not authoritarian like the GOPe and Democrats by a long-shot, but it still niggles at me.
That said he also doesn't have Trump's tendency to sound like an annoying used-car salesman, or to be lead by the nose by "friends" and "allies".
He's probably a more palatable choice for boomer midwits who can't see past Trump's irritating showmanship.
Trump's quip about taking guns first and worrying about due process later, whether made from simple ignorance or not, was a huge red flag (although there were plenty of those before that). DeSantis has made some decisions regarding Florida law enforcement that to me are also alarming. Nonetheless, unless the Democrats decide to reject their wholehearted embrace of authoritarianism or a viable third party candidate is deposited before us from a winged unicorn, the governor might be the best if imperfect option.
DeSantis portrays Florida as a place that’s been able to withstand the myriad assaults on freedom because he’s been willing (and eager) to deploy the power of the state.
So unfree that Zack Weissmeuller moved there. Perhaps there was too much "Freedom" (whatever that means to Gavin Newsom) in California.
The Pelosis own retirement property there too. Wonder why?
As a recent Florida resident I moved here to escape freezing winters. I leave here annually to escape torrid summers. DeSantis is no friend of freedom. He is an authoritarian bully, who cannot stand any dissent. He has a rubber stamp legislature that is about to give him his own armed state guard, answerable to him, and no one else, this despite the presence of a trained National Guard already in place. He is a dangerous man. He will only defend the freedom to agree with him.
You didn't have to put up with Newsom's CA train wreck.
Want a dangerous man? Find an idiot who thinks he can plan an economy and give him dictatorial powers to do so.
Trying to choose between Newsom and DeSantis is a lot like choosing whether I want to be punched in the right nut or the left.
The worst form of utilization of the power of the state is to protect individual freedoms against the federal state.
??? Really?
No. But reason acts like it is.
Yup, what I have been saying for months. To the paleo right, liberty is a privilege that is only earned by those who are morally worthy to be granted its benefits.
And what, do tell, is liberty and freedom to the neocons or the neoliberals? Please keep in mind that the neoliberals and progressives have been rather militant in stomping out dissent and speech that contradicts their narratives. For them, "my body, my choice" only applies to one thing, and it sure as hell isn't an experimental vaccine.
Deflect on behalf of Team Red
So no answer?
Not a leftist. No sir.
DeSatan tis of Thee,
Sweet Man of tyranny!
From every mountainside,
You can smell Him for free!
DeLand where de eagles glide!
DeLand where de illegals hide!
DeSatan, tis of Thee I sing,
To the liberals, tears You bring!
You make the proggies cry!
Talk with THEM?! Don’t even try!
DeSatan, tis of Thee I praise!
For the woke, Holy Hell You raise!
Illegal Martians? Low-life scum, You catch and send,
To Uranus with them! Ignore tax dollars You spend!
We must punish ALL, who to USA might sail,
At ALL costs, DeSatanism MUST prevail!
#MeInTheAss’CauseI’maGullibleLowBrowBlowHardConTard
#BeenTrumpledUnderfootForFarTooLong
Don't worry, Shillsy's here with his heckler's veto, to destroy the thread with shitposts and ensure poor Chemjeff doesn't have to answer the question.
Mute him. I have a much cleaner thread since I did it.
You have an answer, jack? I'll post the question again.
And what, do tell, is liberty and freedom to the neocons or the neoliberals?
To the tune of "America the Beautiful"
DeSatan, tis of Thee,
The Great One, who reigns supreme,
With His mighty hand,
He rules across the land,
His power we cannot flee!
DeSatan, tis of Thee I laud,
For punishing the "woke" fraud,
He silences their cries,
And exposes all their lies,
His wrath they cannot defraud.
DeSatan, tis of Thee I sing,
His justice makes the heavens ring,
With His righteous might,
He vanquishes the night,
To His glory we all shall cling.
DeSatan, tis of Thee I adore,
For sending the aliens offshore,
To Uranus they will go,
And there they shall know,
That DeSatan's power reigns forevermore.
DeSatan, tis of Thee we'll pay,
Our taxes for His righteous way,
To export the "low-lifes",
To far-off planets and strife,
DeSatanism shall never sway!
#MeInTheAss’CauseI’maGullibleLowBrowBlowHardConTard
#BeenTrumpledUnderfootForFarTooLong
To the tune of "Short People", apologies to Randy Newman.
Stupid people got no reason
Stupid people got no reason
Stupid people got no reason
To live
They got Sqrlsy hands
And Jeffy eyes
And they walk around
Tellin' great big lies
They got Pluggo noses
And Tony's little teeth
They wear Laursen shoes
On their nasty little feet
Well, I don't want no stupid people
Don't want no stupid people
Don't want no stupid people
'Round here
Stupid people look just the same
As you and I
(A fool such as I)
All men are brothers
Until the day they die
(It's a wonderful world)
Stupid people got nobody
Stupid people got nobody
Stupid people got nobody
To love
They got little Sqrlsy legs
And they stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to slap hello
They got dumb keyboards
That go beep, beep, beep
They got little voices
Goin' cheep, cheep, cheep
They got grubby little fingers
And dirty little minds
They're gonna get you every time
Well, I don't want no stupid people
Don't want no stupid people
Don't want no stupid people
'Round here
Randy owes us apologies for that and I Love L.A.
Now do ‘Pants’.
You won't address the topic because you know I'm right. And to avoid admitting that I'm right, you'll deflect with whataboutisms. Because you're a shill for Team Red.
And you failed yet again to answer the question, Team Blue shill.
You’re a drone for team blue.
He's here to use heckler's vetoes.
I have actually seen the word, slut, used to describe a pregnant teenager in a discussion about abortion rights.
I don't get your point. The word is slang, but what it expresses is simply that the behavior of the teenage girl was morally wrong.
Are you disapproving of the use of a slang term, or do you not believe that it is morally wrong and harmful for teenage girls to become pregnant?
Who cares if YOU think she's a slut? She doesn't lose her rights because YOU think she's done something morally wrong.
Given that abortion is clearly not a right...what right is being lost?
We could fix it ALL by FORCING people to buy Reason magazines!!!
Hey Damiksec, damiskec, and damikesc, and ALL of your other socks…
How is your totalitarian scheme to FORCE people to buy Reason magazines coming along?
Free speech (freedom from “Cancel Culture”) comes from Facebook, Twitter, Tik-Tok, and Google, right? THAT is why we need to pass laws to severely constrict these DANGEROUS companies (which, ugh!, the BASTARDS, put profits above people!)!!! We must pass new laws to retract “Section 230” and FORCE the evil corporations to provide us all (EXCEPT for my political enemies, of course!) with a “UBIFS”, a Universal Basic Income of Free Speech!
So leftist “false flag” commenters will inundate Reason-dot-com with shitloads of PROTECTED racist comments, and then pissed-off readers and advertisers and buyers (of Reason magazine) will all BOYCOTT Reason! And right-wing idiots like Damikesc will then FORCE people to support Reason, so as to nullify the attempts at boycotts! THAT is your ultimate authoritarian “fix” here!!!
“Now, to “protect” Reason from this meddling here, are we going to REQUIRE readers and advertisers to support Reason, to protect Reason from boycotts?”
Yup. Basically. Sounds rough. (Quote damikesc)
(Etc.)
See https://reason.com/2020/06/24/the-new-censors/
(And Asshole Extraordinaire will NEVER take back its' totalitarian bullshit!!!! 'Cause Asshole Extraordinaire is already PERFECT in every way!!!)
Abortion is a right, whether through privacy or personal medical decision-making.
We won't see that reflected in the law until fringe Justices like Thomas and Alito are gone, but you know as well as I do that this is a temporary situation.
Opinions about abortion haven't shofted in your direction after 50 years of effort by the anti-liberty fringe. What happens when the old folks start dying off and the percentage of people who want to ban abortion drops from 13% to 5%?
How hard will it soon be to find a Justice that believes that abortion is the most important conservative legal issue? If you get one that is ambivalent about abortion but cares deeply about freedom, liberty, and preventing government overreach, it's over for you.
You might be able to make the argument that ending a pregnancy is some sort of right, but if the baby is viable, why not just deliver it early to end the pregnancy?
There are two individuals involved in every abortion, and they both have rights, and occasionally competing interests.
I agree that after viability there are two people whose rights are in conflict regarding abortion. Before that there is only one person.
As a practical matter, I don't see any doctor performing a medically-unnecessary delivery at 24-26 weeks. Nor are ninety-some percent of women seeking an abortion after viability.
That's not what the anti-abortion crowd is trying to stop, is it? They want to take away a woman's rights 24-26 weeks before viability, when she is the only person involved.
Nor does she lose any rights because someone calls her a slut.
During the Middle Ages, people DID lose their rights to LIVE, after their neighbors called them "witches"!
(It is true that the witch-callers sometimes never personally, directly participated in the torture and killings. That being said, ethically responsible people will chose their words carefully. IMHO, this (speaking responsibly) is an ethical matter, and not a legal matter, often; a matter in which Government Almighty isn't really a good tool for "fixing" the problems.)
I didn’t say anything about “her rights”, I simply pointed out that people, rationally, consider her behavior morally wrong and are expressing that fact. I don't understand your or Mike's pearl clutching.
Are you saying you don't consider her behavior morally wrong?
Asking Jeffy for a straight answer to a simple question is a waste of time.
"consider her behavior morally wrong and are expressing that fact"
Most, especially most yourg people, don't think it's morally wrong to have premarital sex. Expressing your narrow beliefs as if it justifies being a bully is called "being a shitty person".
"Are you saying you don’t consider her behavior morally wrong?"
Correct. Not just me, most people.
I think most people think it is morally wrong to have premarital sex, but don't care, or don't care enough.
I mean, even pedophiles think it is morally wrong to molest children, they just do it anyway because the morality of the evil doesn't matter to them.
"I think most people think it is morally wrong to have premarital sex"
Not for a long time. In 2007 it was 38% who thought it was always or almost always morally wrong, as opposed to 59% who said it was sometimes or never morally wrong.
The trend has been consistently downward in my lifetime and I'm 52, so now, 16 years later, it's most likely lower.
I was right. In 2014 it was down to 30% who thought premarital sex was morally unacceptable.
Who cares what you say about anything, you fatfuck commie.
"the behavior of the teenage girl was morally wrong."
Sex isn't morally wrong, with glaring exceptions for adult/child (immoral and illegal) and married person/not-their-spouse (immoral, but not illegal).
Slut is a perjoritive term, as you are well aware. You use it to feel superior, but it just makes you look like a bully.
"morally wrong and harmful for teenage girls to become pregnant"
It isn't morally wrong nor harmful for anyone to get pregnant. Nor is it morally wrong or harmful to end the preganacy.
Your self-righteousness doesn't reflect general beliefs, just yours.
Pregnancies are also ended in live births.
One might argue that it is morally worse to end a pregnancy by killing a healthy living baby, than it is to end a pregnancy by delivering a live healthy baby.
I would agree. After viability there is a strong argument that there are two people whose rights are in conflict. I find this a compelling argument, as do most people.
Forbes has an article yesterday with a summary of findings about abortion if you want to check it out.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2023/04/11/how-americans-really-feel-about-abortion-the-sometimes-surprising-poll-results-as-court-ruling-threatens-mifepristone-access/?sh=4877b0e7933c
So, society should be remade because somebody used an offensive term?
You should see what I've seen online.
Horrors, I’m sure.
We see people like you online. Horror indeed.
Well, was she a slut? Being a slut is a good way to get pregnant.
What if she sincerely believed that this week's boyfriend really loved her?
The word slut is absolutely judgmental and yet that's pointless to a libertarian. Sluts have the same rights as everyone else. Unless someone is saying women don't have the right to be sluts or act like sluts, in which case, that's not a libertarian position.
Libertarianism, to me, is the acceptance that people are welcome make all manner of moral and lifestyle choices I don't approve of. As long as they're not actively harming others it's none of my business. Forcing someone to pretend to approve of others' choices when they actually don't is a problem for liberty.
Right.
You do you, I'll do me. Live & let live.
The never-ending “war on hate” is also a problem for liberty.
You know what’s worse than a “white supremacist”? The “tolerant” “liberal” who wants to imprison him for his “hate speech.”
And the abortion debate is a far more nuanced one than Mike and others simply labeling it a right will acknowledge. It can (and has been argued by many here) that since abortion is ending a life, that it violates the NAP. Their rejoinder is to compare a fetus/baby to a squatter (which, if you look at the laws are really hard to actually evict, so if they want to use that analogy, I'm all for making abortion subject to the same laws as squatters) or trespassers. Basically, they're dismissing the well reasoned arguments of the many, by highlighting the religious aspect and then declaring that being opposed to abortion is akin to religious establishment, ergo it is anti-liberty. While many pro-lifers are religious and conservative not all of them are and even those of us who do identify as religious often have far more valid arguments than those based on the Ten Commandments.
"As long as they’re not actively harming others it’s none of my business."
THIS! A thosand times, this. Your moral approbation is meaningless, but using ter.s that yiu know are cruel and perjoritive jus exposes you as cruel an a bully.
“I have actually seen the word, slut, used to describe a pregnant teenager in a discussion about abortion rights.”
I have actually used the word, "slut", to describe a pregnant teenager who was fucking around but was too lazy to use the pill/diaphragm/condom/or a million other contraceptive choices, and now wants to kill her kid.
Go have your vapors somewhere else, Laursen.
"I have actually used the word, “slut”, to describe a pregnant teenager who was fucking around but was too lazy to use the pill/diaphragm/condom/or a million other contraceptive choices"
How many teenaged girls' birth control practices are you privy to? That would seem to limit the number of teenagers you could justify calling a slut to your own children. Or maybe their friends, if you regularly eavesdrop on teenagers.
"now wants to kill her kid"
Not killing and not a kid.
Science says otherwise. So stop being n infanticidal lying piece of shit.
Science says nothing of the sort.
And to the Left, freedom is being compelled to to do what the collective decides as guided by the properly credentialed experts.
So maybe, the libertarian solution here is not to endorse either tribe's fake version of "liberty".
Sounds like a good approach to me.
The modern libertarian version is... as best as I can tell, cheer on left-wing versions of liberty while saying nothing about left-wing versions of oppression, which cause liberty to... in general... shrink.
For instance, cheer on the free movement of peoples across social constructs (borders) while saying nothing about the left-wing legislation which extracts blood and treasure from taxpayers to pay for free healthcare and other social services for those people who make their way into your political district. This gets its enablers called "The Most Libertarian __________ in the country".
This is smug "libertarianism as suicide pact".
I guess you're gonna see what you see. It’s not objective, but be you.
Are you saying that open borders advocates don’t deny or downplay the costs associated with their policies?
I have yet to see one admit to it.
Bitch please, he’s the honest factual one, and you’re the inveterate liar who proposes drinking sulfuric acid.
It’s even worse than that. What DeSantis did with Martha’s Vineyard was by all accounts exactly what the US Government is doing. It is taking a bunch of people’s free movement and making them someone else’s problem.
That was specifically objected to by Boehm. Why is that specific act Anti-Freedom? If it is anti-freedom to give a guy a bus ticket to go to some other community (whether it wants them there or not), isn’t open borders immigration basically the same anti-freedom?
And this is largely the problem with Boehm’s festivus-style list of grievances. He is picking on decisions that he doesn’t like and calling them Anti-Freedom even when they aren’t any more anti-freedom than we currently have.
The status quo is that agents of the state have a monopoly on K-12 education, and get to determine which curriculum they will present. For the past 100 years they have restricted our “freedoms” to learn about the history of India vs American History; creationism vs evolution; standard model physics vs quantum theory; and CRT vs non-racist, non-marxist education. But because suddenly the needle changed on one specific subject, Boehm is aflutter. We didn’t lose any freedom. Those freedoms were always gone when the State first appropriated the power to dictate the curriculums in school. So it certainly seems like it is the CRT that Boehm actually cares about.
Likewise, we have always been subject to a government that chooses to dump immigrants on our public property, regardless of our desires. In a libertarian world, most communities would be more closely aligned with gated developments, where small groups of people settle on policies of who is allowed in, and where individuals are held accountable for the actions of people they bring into the community. But the government has stripped those freedoms from us. They have declared that local communities cannot make those decisions for themselves, and they have appropriated all sorts of land and property rights that people would otherwise have the “freedom” to manage locally. The government has stripped those property rights, and instead forces communities to accept others freely moving regardless of the preferences of would-be owners. DeSantis’s stunt did not change those freedoms whatsoever- it merely illustrated the exact same dynamic that happens in border towns every day.
I see it as nearly the same with the “Stop WOKE” act. It has been close to 50 years since companies lost the freedom to peddle racist bigotry in the office. They are not allowed to talk about the incapabilities of women, or the stupidity of blacks, or the superiority of whites. That horse has left the barn. It is arguable that CRT theory by its very nature actually violates those existing anti-freedom laws (my previous employer ultimately stopped pushing their CRT classes because of exactly those concerns). Clarifying that requirement isn’t anti-freedom- those original laws are anti-freedom.
Do I wish that DeSantis was actually pushing for the wholesale de-nationalization of public education; the state dissolving its asserted ownership of our private property rights; and the meddling in business affairs? Sure. But we all know that that isn’t going to happen- no one is going to repeal the Civil Rights Act (and I have a hard time believing Reasonistas would endorse such a plan).
So all this seems to be a bunch of projection on Boehm’s part. Is he angry that DeSantis is only giving freedom to the people DeSantis wants, or is Boehm just angry that DeSantis’s people aren’t the ones Boehm wants?
I would argue further that De Santis isn't banning parents from teaching CRT, that one groups is oppressed and the other group completely responsible even if they aren't actively suppressing anyone, simply because of their skin color, but simply saying if you received tax payer money, you can't do that in your professional duties. He also didn't ban sex related talks, but simply stated you can't teach them without expressed permission of the parents. Basically, it's a simply change that instead of allowing parental opt out, the new law requires parental opt-ins. It makes things more transparent. And we can see the result of, and need for this, as school districts across the country have suddenly stated they will no longer be informing parents of class material unless requested, and even then may decide not to provide it. So, in essence their reaction to De Santis's move is to become more secretive, which says a lot about their actual motives. Never trust someone who says their hiding stuff from you for your own good.
"CRT, that one groups is oppressed and the other group completely responsible even if they aren’t actively suppressing anyone, simply because of their skin color"
If you think that's what CRT is, you are believing things ignorant people tell you. Also, CRT isb't taught in K-12 schools, so what DeSantis is trying to ban isn't CRT, it's something else entirely.
"Basically, it’s a simply change that instead of allowing parental opt out, the new law requires parental opt-ins."
So parents have to opt in to having their kids taught sbout the workd as it is, as opposed to the workd as the parent wishes it would be?
If you're banning books because the story has two dads in it, you're doing exactly that.
"Never trust someone who says their hiding stuff from you for your own good."
Teachers aren't "hiding stuff". You want to see what your kid is learning? Open their textbooks. If you're too lazy to read it for yourself, why should a teacher take their valuable time to summarize it for you? They aren't your teacher, you finished school.
Give it a rest. Nobody believes your gaslighting. There has been more than enough direct evidence in the form of manuals, training slides, homework handouts to grade 3 students, etc. to show that the teachers' unions are all in on teaching every disgusting aspect of CRT to children from kindergarten on.
Then apparently you have no idea what CRT is. It isn't teaching about racism and slavery. CRT isn't even something that K-12 students would have the baseline to study.
Well, when the time comes and people are presented with only two options, I would hope they choose the less worse of the two, freedom wise. There isn't a "neither" choice in this country, since even if you don't vote, whoever was voted in will still be in charge and impose their version of freedom on you.
Agree. I tend to vote for libertarian-minded candidates every chance I get but sometimes I don't for exactly the reasons you outlined. I live in NH and in 2022 voters were presented with some ugly choices. I voted for a Democrat for the first time in many years. Is a bad Democrat better than a really bad Republican? Sometimes.
Nobody believes you
Yet you are an acolyte of the Marxist tribe.
Now fuck the fuck off, you fatfuck.
I think you meant to say the liberty is a blessing that can only be maintained with a virtuous population. Without virtue, the citizens will corrupt and destroy liberty.
...if you can keep it! -Ben Franklin
And who decides who is "morally worthy"??
Yeah, well, he's a conservative, not a libertarian. What do you want?
I still say his record on covid response makes him worthy of some mild support.
And it's a hell of a lot better than Newsom, Pritzker, or even Governor McDreamy (aka Polis) in Colorado.
Which one is the Giant Douche and which one is the Turd Sandwich?
I gave a choice of three.
“Which one is the Giant Douche and which one is the Turd Sandwich?”
Jo Jorgenson and Gary Johnson
"Which one is the Giant Douche and which one is the Turd Sandwich?"
Given the nature of what seems to be rising to the top of the political toilet bowls, there should be plenty of douches and turds for which to vote. Anarchy is, once again, looking better and better.
Vocally support neither, but reluctantly vote for the enfeebled one.
If Sarcasmic wasn't being disingenuous he'd ask which one is the Giant Douche and which one is Pol Pot.
Right; who fucks with me the least?
DeSantis, or Pritzker, Polis, Newsome, Murphy...
Yes, it really is that simple. And if the worst you can fault him for is requiring immigrants to that State to move there legally, you don't have much to go on.
The thing is, DeSantis just pulls stunts, while the others you named, not that I know much about them, propose actual policies.
You are getting good at this.
I find him tiresome.
Policies detrimental to freedom vs policies leftists call stunts because they don't like them.
Mike's got poisoning the well down pat.
He was the best governor in the entire nation on the Wuhan Virus response. He deserves a LOT of praise for standing his ground on it in the face of relentless media attacks and lies.
Seconded.
And for me that's enough right now. The most important thing is to get people elected who will not let something like the covid madness happen again (or at least try) and to remove those who trampled on everyone's rights.
Again, this is libertarianism as suicide pact. The system is out of balance, and we're not being led by libertarians, we're being led by progressives and conservatives-- and your fellow voters are NOT libertarian. Choose wisely.
Well said.
Man you guys really got him this time!
Let's see. Do I vote for the guy who is hostile to this liberty or the guy who is hostile to that liberty? Fuck that. I choose none of the above. I'll vote when presented with someone who actually supports liberty, instead of deciding against who I perceive to be most hostile towards it.
Right on! This guy gets it! Both sides are equally bad!
Thanks, Mike. We appreciate the innate Libertarian perspective you provide with every post. Though do you really mean 'equally' bad? Seems like you are pinpointing a position with that stake in the ground. 🙂
parody acct, right?
Read the name. Clearly a parody
The problem is you have to read the name, because it is a very accurate parody.
It's downright uncanny.
I find it all tiresome.
I didn't say equally. One does smell more terrible than the other. But that's like choosing between dog shit and cat shit. They're both shit.
Name me one candidate that isn't? Gary 'Bake the Cake' Johnson (who I did vote for despite that) or Jo 'must be actively anti-racist' Johnson (same as Gary)? Your can vote straight libertarian and I can point to how everyone of your candidates are bad on some aspect of liberty. So, no, the boaf sides argument is nihilistic bullshit. It's a way to act brave without having to actually do anything.
And it's about as original and edgy as Reecognitirs constant need to degrade Judeo-Christianity and remind everyone how he is such an edgy atheist. Or the vegan at the BBQ who has to tell everyone how vegan they are and demands you clean the grill before you cook their brussel sprouts hamburger.
Right there with you. Voted big L for twenty years and finally found myself voting for Bill Weld. Woke up the next day, looked in the mirror and said "what the fuck were you thinking?"
You still have to choose.
If I choose not to decide have I still made a choice?
::monkey_drum_roll.gif::
4 out of 5 stars: I would never have included the word, equally, in that sentence. Once again, your attempts at parody are highlighting how your own politics make you misinterpret or misremember things I have actually said.
Several commenters here (especially Ken) have argued that we should vote for Republicans because they are the lesser of two evils. I have two disagreements:
1. Inevitably, if I can get the person making the argument to reveal details of their scoring criteria, it turns out the person is a conservative or conservative-leaning libertarian;
2. I don’t believe I voting for the lesser of two evils. I will only vote FOR a person or initiative that I am positive about.
Although I do understand why someone who lives in a swing state might feel they need to vote for the lesser of two evils.
If you live in a solidly red or blue state, though, why would you give your stamp of approval to either Team Blue or Red by giving them your vote?
Also, it doesn’t explain the enthusiasm with which someone like Ken votes for, and defends against all criticism, what he supposedly considers the lesser of two evils.
Mike: One more infantile thinker!
I'll take some overzealous "protec mUH ChilDrens from pervs!" over the marxist revolutionaries the other side offers. Every time. It's not even close.
yes yes we know, the authoritarians on Team Red are just misguided but mean well, but the authoritarians on Team Blue are REALLY DANGEROUS and must be stopped at all costs.
maybe, don't vote for authoritarians?
I dont but i'll take DeSantis over Elizabeth Warren for example, any time, all the time. It's not even close.
side a: Stop this tranny shit with the kids mmm kay?
side b: Gimme all your guns and money and i'm gonna you in prison for thought crimes if I can get away with it. Also Slava Ukraini!
I know which side is better.
Well, when you put it that way...
Side A: women are breeding mares to be kept barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, and children are to be indoctrinated only into the correct curriculum full of Real Murican Patriotism
Side B: we want to raise taxes
Side B has also wanted women to be disposable sex toys.
I don't see any right wing politicians advocating for any of those things. "Murican" isn't even a thing.
There are scores of left wing politicians advocating for all the things Woodchipper posted, except maybe the Ukraine bit since it wasn't in English.
Groomer Jeffy is a Marxist liar.
side b. MEN ARE WOMEN and real women better just shut up and sit down.
Holy strawman.
It is just as much of a strawman as Woodchipper's post.
Are you saying that your average Democrat doesn’t want to raise taxes, take away law abiding citizens guns, and think hate speech(thoughtcrime) is something that should be banned (oh, and they get to determine what hate speech is)?
Side A: At some point, it's not about the woman, it's about the baby being able to survive and now has an interest which cannot ethically be ignored.
Side B: Kill 'em all until they're registered Democrats.
Side A: if you don't have a gun it means you're not a "real man" and there's something wrong with you and you need to go get more guns and get your arsenal for when the gubmint decides to go door-to-door to confiscate all the guns
Side B: we just want fewer kids shot at school
You are so bad at this.
You should at least try and say things that are actually being said by "Side A."
Oh you mean like "gimme all your guns and money"? Or "we'll put you in jail for thought crime"? Like that?
It's easy to make one side look better than the other side when you deliberately exaggerate the faults of one and deliberately minimize the faults of the other.
They want to raise taxes, which is taking my money.
They want to impose gun control laws to take away firearms and prevent people from buying new ones.
They want to impose "hate speech" laws to make punishments for crimes like murder have longer sentences if the wrong combination of races were involved.
See what Washington State just approved, which I notice didn't make Reasons lineup today. Probably the most sweeping anti-gun legislation in years.
You’re a liar who exaggerates. Most of the actual commentariat is pretty accurate when describe what your kind are trying to do.
I’m fact, you’re worse am just a liar. You’re a sophist sea lion, a propagandist.
Side A: we want to get rid of the illegal immigrants, no not that way, just deport them, and also we just want fewer immigrants total, no we're not bigots, we just don't want more of "those people", and we want to make sure the government works for the benefit of Americans and not immigrants, yes I know immigrants can be citizens too, but you know what I mean, right?
Side B: we just want people treated humanely
Not.
A.
Leftist.
I'm pointing out the absurdity in these characterizations of the two teams that Woodchipper and the rest of you keep putting out.
Over and over and over again, it's:
Team Red: misguided but well-intentioned
Team Blue: ABSOLUTE EVIL, MUST BE DESTROYED
it only reveals ALL OF YOU to be nothing but Team Red partisans.
Again....not a leftist. At all. Cannot fathom why people think that of you.
If you don't dehumanize the enemy then you are the enemy.
So in your world by ChemJeff making shit up the right doesn't actually state, he's not dehumanizing them?
I'm not defending jeff.
Then why even make that jejune, inane, sophomoric post? I'm thinking it's only to fuck with people so you can complain when they attack you. If that isn't your reason, than your oblivious to how others will react
Sarc, Groomer Jeffy, Mike Liarson, Shrike, and their numerous socks……
All disingenuous sorts that rely on false strawmen, outright lies, sea lioning, and vapid sophistry. Always defending the democrat position or individual, and always taking a negative position against anyone opposed to the left. Typically condemning members of the commentariat that hold non left positions and white knighting for the others I mentioned above.
If you faggots just admit what you’re all about, then at least I could respect that. It’s not like you’re fooling anyone. Say what you want about Tony, at least the piece of shit is honest about being a leftist.
No, you're creating strawmen devoid of any reality because you can't stand your team being attacked.
Side B: we just want people treated humanely, far far away from us.
We get it Jeff, you'll afraid that if we stop the grooming you'll never get a date.
And if they stop the puberty blockers, he'll never be attracted to someone of legal age.
Tell me you’re sympathetic to the left without saying you’re sympathetic to the left.
In the last 100 years, it wasn’t the right who took control of governments and instituted capitalism and classical liberalism, killing 10’s of millions of people in the process.
you mean instituted communism. the left did that, over and over again.
Yes, I was alluding to the fact that the left instituted socialism/communism in various flavors, killing 10’s of millions of people the world over. The right and capitalism, not so much.
You have a valid position. Keep your vote to yourself.
On the realistic side, you will never vote again.
Right, and you'll live with whatever you're handed.
Not that voting would make a difference anyway, (this isn't an argument suggesting that if you don't vote, you can't complain) so you have to decide which liberties are truly important, and which lost liberties are either window dressing and won't have major second-order effects-- or won't stand up to a first amendment challenge (as one example).
I live in a blue state so I know fuck well what my lost liberties are that HAVE stood up to first amendment challenges. This is not theoretical.
As I posted above:
Who fucks with me the least?
DeSantis, or Pritzker, Polis, Newsome, Murphy…
Yes, it really is that simple. And if the worst you can fault him for is requiring immigrants to that State to move there legally, or that abortions are limited to a point in the first trimester [when you can at least argue that the "clump of cells" would no survive out of the womb, or feel pain when surgically dissected], you don’t have much to go on.
As for "CRT" in schools, I am not in favor of them teaching creationism either. Let's just leave all of the notions that are propaganda out of the curriculum, because CRT is not history, it is an agenda that certain groups love to see mandated in schools.
DeSantis, or Pritzker, Polis, Newsome, Murphy…
psst: there's more than just two choices
When the time for the final vote happens, there isn't.
Freedom includes the ability for people to voluntarily organize into communities and set rules for those communities. That is a concept Reason is evidently unfamiliar with. Freedom is rooted in subsidiarity, not atomization of society.
Forcing teachers to comply with parents wishes on what is and isn’t taught, determining what books can be bought with taxpayer money for libraries, eliminating regulatory capture, preventing public sector employees from using their public sector credentials for political activism, and ensuring that communities can set their own zoning rules all promote freedom.
Freedom includes the ability for people to voluntarily organize into communities and set rules for those communities.
Depends on the rules. Otherwise you're just substituting a large tyranny with a localized tyranny.
Unless its anarchy, its tyranny. Super serious reply.
No, it does not "depend on the rules". As long as your membership in the community is voluntary, the rules you subject yourself to can be as restrictive as you choose. That is part of freedom. You want authoritarianism.
Insert CSLewis quote about the scariest tyranny being the tyranny for your own good.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”—C.S. Lewis
It’s tyranny if they oppose Groomer Jeffy’s leftist belief system.
So freedom implies that you can voluntarily organize a criminal gang? This is just silly! Freedom and liberty are not the same thing. While you may be free to form your own community with like-minded individuals, there are still Constitutional limitations on what you can do within that community and in interactions with neighboring communities. If individuals within that community own their own property individually, the community is NOT "free" to impose unconstitutional and otherwise illegal rules on the members.
"...there are still Constitutional limitations on what you can do within that community and in interactions with neighboring communities."
Well now that would depend on what you are specifically referring to; criminal gangs? No, there are quite extensive criminal codes, both State and Federal, proscribing such illegal activities that involve things like theft and murder. But I somehow doubt that is what you are referring to.
No, because "criminal gangs" violate the rights of people who are not members of the gang. It is the violation of the rights outside the gang that violates other people’s freedoms.
But freedom implies the right to voluntarily organize into an Amish community, or a Mormon community, or a BDSM sex cult, or a fight club, or a communist collective.
That is a meaningless tautology: of course "illegal rules" are illegal. Duh.
But communities are free to impose bylaws, covenants, restrictions, etc. on members. They are free to contractually impose severe penalties for people who violate those rules. And communities can take back private property from people who agreed to those rules and violated them. US law imposes few restrictions on communities to do this, and a truly free society would impose even fewer restrictions.
Criminal gangs are not allowed to, for example, murder their own members no matter what they might have agreed to when they joined. Likewise, communities are not allowed to impose covenants that violate the law or the Constitution, and they cannot "take back" property except through contract law proceedings and then almost always in the form of compelling compliance or "fines"
So what? I said that communities could impose "restrictive rules". Is forming a criminal gang a "restrictive rule"? Not in English.
We're all friends here. If you have trouble with long words like "restrictive", feel free to ask!
Freedom includes the ability for people to voluntarily organize into communities and set rules for those communities.
didnt that die with the CRA?
Not with the original CRA, but case law and state CR laws since then have greatly expanded the infringement of rights which was relatively trivial in the original act.
"Forcing teachers to comply with parents wishes"
If you were honest, you would say, "a minority of parents' wishes".
"determining what books can be bought with taxpayer money for libraries"
Or getting rid of books that have already been purchased. And, again, a minority of parents.
"eliminating regulatory capture"
Regulatory capture of ... what? DeSantis is pro-regulatory capture, he just does it to people you don't like.
"preventing public sector employees from using their public sector credentials for political activism"
What?
"ensuring that communities can set their own zoning rules"
Again, what? Or is this your spin on political retribution against provate companies using the power of government?
"promote freedom"
With the exception of easing Covid restrictions before everyone else, I haven't seen much from DeSantis that promotes freedom. Usually he's doing the exact opposite and he brags about how good he is at it.
If not allowing minors, who are not able to give informed consent, to get surgery that will sterilize them for life and require permanent medical maintenance is "anti-freedom", then so be it. There is a strong scent of cult like dogmatism in the trans activist movement that seems to preclude any rational discussion of this issue.
The anti-trans nonsense is about preventing PARENTS from granting consent on behalf of their minor children.
From some parents consenting to subject their child to quackery. The other side is to prevent agents of the state from concealing their influence on the child in such procedures from parents who are skeptical.
Are you really for having anyone doing such a life altering elective procedures on a minor with impaired ability to understand what the permanent effects of that decision will be?
I am in favor of letting parents, doctors, counselors and therapists work it all out themselves to decide what is best for the child, and for third-party moral busybodies such as DeSantis and yourself to butt out and leave them alone.
Groomer.
You're just another authoritarian asshole then. Trying to dictate to everyone how to run their lives.
No, an adult can do whatever they want to themselves.
Doing permanent harm to children who cannot give informed consent is quite another. You may want to try to explain how "gender affirming care" is not harmful.
I don't have to. It's not my call to make, and it's not your call to make either. Butt out, stop trying to control people.
So genital mutilation is ok?
Does circumcision count?
I do like how Leo has to conflate castration and sterilization to circumcision to try and defend it.
I get knock on the door by CPS if my kids walks alone to the park, but parents mutilating a minor is AOK. Is this the position you are defending?
I don't think you should get a knock on the door by CPS if your kids are out walking alone.
What is so difficult about the statement that as a general rule, libertarians should trust parents to decide what is best for their kids?
"What is so difficult about the statement that as a general rule, libertarians should trust parents to decide what is best for their kids?"
But this is stealing a base. I do agree with this as a general rule. But this is a very specific rule. And your general rule seems to be running up against some lines that should be specifically outlined.
There is no such thing as an absolute right or absolute freedom. Parents may not starve their children to death. They may not beat them to death. Why should they be allowed to perform questionable permanent surgery on them? You are granting god-like powers to the doctors which both history and logic surely argue against. Even less reliable are the psychiatric shamans of recent society. Although adults are frequently confronted with choices from amongst the best available medical evidence, it doesn’t mean that the options are GOOD ones. I don’t know where to draw the line here, but at least I know that there IS a line that should be drawn somewhere on this issue.
Yes, there is a line, and I don't precisely know where to draw the line either. But the libertarian impulse ought to be that, when there is uncertainty, leave the decision in the hands of the individuals involved.
I would be in favor of a regulation that required a waiting period, or that required express parental consent, or that required multiple examinations to confirm a diagnosis. But I'm not going to favor outright banning it when it is a valid medical procedure to treat a real disease.
Did you know that not even lobotomy is illegal in this country?
I suspect that if anyone was still promoting lobotomy and lots of people were being lobotomized, someone might decide to make some laws about it.
Ask Jeff about Conversion Therapy and I bet he finds the line real fast. Despite no permanent harm.
Medical "transitioning" IS conversion therapy.
For the gay kids.
"I would be in favor of a regulation that required a waiting period"
Then it seems we are all in agreement. Conservatives are requiring a waiting period of "Until you are 18". *shrug*.
How about no medically unnecessary and life altering surgeries on minors? How about having them reach the age of majority, at which point they can legally enter into contracts?
There are those who argue that waiting until age 18 is just "too late" for such a gender dysphoric person to engage in something like hormone treatments. To that I say too fucking bad, they do not have the capacity to make such a decision for themselves, and certainly do not have the life perspective to fully appreciate the ramifications.
Just because you can, does not mean you should.
To that I say too fucking bad
Easy for you to say, as a third party busybody trying to butt in who doesn't have to live with the consequences. This is the arrogance and hubris that all moral busybodies display.
So are age of consent laws immoral or not. You're saying yes.
I agree with Jeff. If me and my 12 year old son both want bang each other, why should the gov't have anything to say about it? And if my boy wants to cut his dick off? Stay out of it, that's between him and me.
He would have to take a knife and do it himself because no surgeon in the US will do such surgery on a minor.
And again with the lies. Jazz Jennings is the most public example. You were just given the medicaid data as well. Yet you persist.
I have repeatedly posted the facts showing that isn't true.
Again with the sex talk. You all are the only ones bringing up sex with kids. It's disturbing.
Anastasia Beaverhausen just posted opposing age of consent laws.
https://reason.com/2023/04/10/what-freedom-means-to-ron-desantis/?comments=true#comment-10011288
This brings up an aspect of the whole culture war moral panic over transgender surgeries, though.
Just how many young men do Red Team culture warriors think are going to find the idea of having their penis snipped off appealing? Seems like a very limited audience of kids who are going to ever find this something desirable to go out of their way to do.
Just how many poisonings and mutilations of children do you find acceptable? Give us a number.
Hitler didn't kill all the jews though, so Mike doesn't think you be fully against it.
So, you coming out against child labor laws, too? Just asking for no reason, probably.
"anti-trans nonsense" now i"ve heard it all.
There is nothing more nonsensical than the trans nonsense being promulgated as "science" and sneakily foisted upon young vulnerable children behind their parents' backs.
thank heavens we have wise moral paragons such as yourself to dictate to the entire planet what is or is not the "correct" position on transgenderism.
We have biology. You have feelings.
Fuck your feelings.
Your side is the one full of emotional outrage divorced from reality.
Do I have to trot out the 1912 Oxford Dictionary again which, once again, defines both "man" and "woman" with multiple definitions, only one of which relied on biology alone?
Define what “Feels like a woman” or “Feels like a man” means. I ask you because literally nobody on the trans side seems able to do so. You are one of the two, so you must know what it means to feel like one.
If you do not or cannot — how can they?
“Do I have to trot out the 1912 Oxford Dictionary again which, once again, defines both “man” and “woman” with multiple definitions, only one of which relied on biology alone?”
Define them in a way that does not require using the word in its own definition. Go ahead.
What it means to "feel like a man" or "feel like a woman" is highly dependent on one's culture and location. In 18th century England, wearing a powder wig and tights would be "feeling like a man". In ancient Sparta, having sex with boys was "feeling like a man". There is no truthful answer to the question that is based solely on biology. It is your team that has bizarrely tried to claim that the word "man" and the word "woman" now, after thousands of years to the contrary, have one and only one definition rooted only in biology alone.
“What it means to “feel like a man” or “feel like a woman” is highly dependent on one’s culture and location. In 18th century England, wearing a powder wig and tights would be “feeling like a man”. In ancient Sparta, having sex with boys was “feeling like a man”. There is no truthful answer to the question that is based solely on biology. It is your team that has bizarrely tried to claim that the word “man” and the word “woman” now, after thousands of years to the contrary, have one and only one definition rooted only in biology alone.”
So, attire and sexuality are what makes one their sex. Good to know. It is NOT fashion or sexual preference.
When I say trans ideology negates the existence of homosexuality, this is what I mean.
The correct answer is an adult human female or male, based on if the question is for a woman or a man.
It was not even difficult to do that.
But that is simply not true. It is too reductionist. That is the problem with you all at this time, you are bizarrely trying to edit the dictionary to remove most of the definitions of "man" or "woman". THAT is the Orwellian abuse of the language.
Given what trannies want...it is the definition that matters.
You do not LIKE the definition of man or woman and that is a you problem.
So, let me put it this way.
Suppose a woman decides to do something that is a stereotypically "male" activity. Like fix a car. Or participate in a boxing match. Or go hunting. Of course women CAN do all of these things, but they are culturally and stereotypically associated as "male" activities. The woman says afterwards "wow that felt good, now I feel like a man".
That statement is completely consistent with a BIOLOGICAL understanding of the word "woman", and a CULTURAL understanding of the word "man".
Is fixing a car an activity for men? I have never seen any rule regarding that nor any definition stating that. In fact, I do not know of many auto repair joints near me that do not have at least one female mechanic or technician on staff.
So, you're equating your example as proof that men are NOT actually adult human males? You failed in your effort. Worse than usual, honestly.
Really? Where do you live?
Because no matter where I have lived or traveled, whether a very conservative or very liberal place I have seen very few female auto mechanics.
Laursen, being a mechanic is not a defining part of being a man, a male homo sapiens sapiens. Having a Y-chromosome is.
"That statement is completely consistent with a BIOLOGICAL understanding of the word “woman”, and a CULTURAL understanding of the word “man”."
There are so many things wrong with this logic that it is hard to start. You people have completely lost all understanding of correlation vs causation.
Your logic is basically saying that "since auto-repair is highly correlated with men, all auto-repair people are men." It is a logically unsound. It is fallacious reasoning. But it is the sort of silly, deluded thinking one gets when dealing with collectivists- the belief that being within a specific collective defines an individual.
But this is even worse. This logic is being used to do even more. It is, "Because auto-repair is highly correlated with having a dick and no breasts, if you are in auto-repair you need to add a dick and cut off your breasts." It is crazy and insane, and anyone who says I am a bigot for pointing out that logical fallacy you are spreading is also crazy and insane.
My wife was a tomboy growing up. She played ball, was the chief enforcer on my pickup hockey league, and went into engineering and mathematics in college. Never once if you asked her would she ever question her gender or sex. She has always considered herself a woman, even when engaging in activities that were often performed by men.
The difference is that today, when my daughter is doing the exact same thing, people LIKE YOU are there trying to tell her that she isn't "a girl doing what she wants, even if it includes things usually done by boys". No people LIKE YOU are using this logical fallacy to teach her that she must really be a boy.
My god, how can people who arrogantly claim to be such arbiters of good thinking promulgate such claptrap? This is medieval "you must be a witch if you float" bullshit.
Your logic is basically saying that “since auto-repair is highly correlated with men, all auto-repair people are men.”
No, Overt. That is not what I said and you know it. You are deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote and it is not right.
What I wrote, is that if a woman were to perform some activity that is stereotypically and culturally associated with men, such as fixing cars, and if the woman says "that makes me feel like a man", that that statement is not an incorrect statement, because what she is referring to here is not some feeling that she now has a penis, but instead associated with the cultural expectations of a man that have NOTHING to do with biology.
It is, “Because auto-repair is highly correlated with having a dick and no breasts, if you are in auto-repair you need to add a dick and cut off your breasts.”
Who is arguing this position? I am not. This is a total strawman.
“ You are deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote and it is not right.”
Yeah, he does that.
"What I wrote, is that if a woman were to perform some activity that is stereotypically and culturally associated with men, such as fixing cars, and if the woman says “that makes me feel like a man“, that that statement is not an incorrect statement, because what she is referring to here is not some feeling that she now has a penis, but instead associated with the cultural expectations of a man that have NOTHING to do with biology"
This continues to be so absurd as to defy reality. No woman has finished an MMA competition, or fighting to gain the respect of an engineering professor, or finished working on a car and said, "Yeah now I feel like a man."
It's ridiculous. The whole point of the feminist movement was that it is WRONG for culture to define what "men do" and what "women do". It was wrong for them to say that Math is men stuff and cleaning dishes was woman stuff. And it is in fact deeply insulting to these people to suggest that- as a woman completing these activities- they are somehow "culturally a man".
No one knows what it feels like to be anything but themselves. To feel like you are something other than what you are is a delusion and there is no reason to assume it is tied to any kind of reality. That's what offends me most about trans ideology. If you feel more comfortable dressing and acting in a certain way, fine, everyone can do their thing and I don't care. But don't pretend that your fantasies and delusions mean you have any idea what it is to be something that you are not.
No one knows what it feels like to be anything but themselves.
Obviously there are exceptions to even this. Paraplegics and quadriplegics can remember what it feels like to walk. Even though they are incapable of walking, they can know what it feels like to be someone who walks.
Yes, I could have been more precise in how I said that.
"Define what “Feels like a woman” or “Feels like a man” means"
When I feel a penis, it's a man. When I feel a vagina, it's a woman.
Grab 'em by—whatever.
Oh yes, trot that out again, never mind that the definitions in there refute you.
Negro: '....Member, especially male, of black-skinned woolly-haired flat nosed thick lipped African race. Adj: occupied by, connected with ..ant, bat monkey... Oxford Dictionary 1912
Do I have to trot out the 1912 Oxford Dictionary again
Yes, do that. Prove your stupidity once again.
"thank heavens we have wise moral paragons such as yourself to dictate "
As opposed to wise moral paragons like you who feel comfortable declaring that Anti-trans positions (positions that 99% of the country agreed upon merely 10 years ago) are "nonsense"? As opposed to wise moral paragons like you who can confidently declare that gender reassignment is a valid medical procedure on minors?
Your positions are deeply controversial if not extreme. And on one side you have people trying to prevent permanent medical procedures until a kid is of majority, and on the other side we have a bunch of activists peddling procedures that 10 years ago would have gotten them disbarred by the medical association.
Fun fact: gender reassignment surgery *on minors* has been around for at least 25 years now.
And if you want the government to pre-emptively ban these procedures, it means that you are substituting your moral judgment for theirs. You are ultimately saying that parents can't be trusted, but Overt can, to know what's best for their children. Weren't you passionately advocating not too long ago that you were the only one who ought to be able to decide whether your child gets vaccinated for COVID or not? Seems as though you have no problems demanding that YOUR parental rights be honored, but that THEIR parental rights ought to be ignored. Typical right-wing hypocrite.
it means that you are substituting your moral judgment for theirs.
I am fine with substituting my moral judgement for that of people who harm children and think that's OK. You're not because you are an amoral psychopath.
You are ultimately saying that parents can’t be trusted
Some parents can't be trusted. We can't tolerate people causing serious harm to children simply because they are their parents.
"Fun fact: gender reassignment surgery *on minors* has been around for at least 25 years now."
There is nothing more precious than you and Mike running around insisting that this shit isn't happening, and thus evil conservatives are whipping up moral outrage over nothing, and then insisting that it HAS been going on for 25 years, so it must be some sort of normalized thing that conservatives are trying to stop.
"if you want the government to pre-emptively ban these procedures, it means that you are substituting your moral judgment for theirs."
Really? So down below when you qualify what is an allowable procedure on children (female circumcision vs gender reassignment), what are you doing? Are you not substituting your moral judgement for those who feel female circumcision is ok?
For valid medical procedures with a reviewed standard of care to treat a diagnosed disease? I am not interested in substituting my judgment and BANNING those procedures.
"For valid medical procedures with a reviewed standard of care to treat a diagnosed disease? I am not interested in substituting my judgment and BANNING those procedures."
Keep evading. If you are arguing that female circumcision is not acceptable (while gender reassignment is), then "it means that you are substituting your moral judgment for theirs." You have made the moral judgement that one MAY NOT perform a procedure unless it is a "valid medical procedure".
You may be right that this is the right moral line to draw (I disagree), but it is a moral line that you are drawing. And it of course erodes the sanctimonious moral highground that you have tried to claim.
There is nothing more precious than you and Mike running around insisting that this shit isn’t happening, and thus evil conservatives are whipping up moral outrage over nothing,
The sheer amount of outrage and furor that transgender kids has whipped up is the sign of a moral panic. I'm sure there really were satanic cults back in the Satanic Panic days of the 1980's, but nothing to justify the level of hysteria and fear that was generated at the time. It's the same deal here.
Cynically, this is Team Red spinning the Wheel Of Outrage to instigate another round of demagoguery to induce fear and panic and ultimately to drive donations and votes their way.
"Seems as though you have no problems demanding that YOUR parental rights be honored, but that THEIR parental rights ought to be ignored. Typical right-wing hypocrite."
There is nothing hypocritical about my position. Neither I, nor any other parent has the right to perform irreparable, risky, unproven, medical procedures on their children*. A parent declining to vaccinate is not performing any medical procedure at all, so it is not, you know, the same thing.
But given that you couldn't be bothered to give even an ounce of the opprobrium about vaccine mandates that you give in a single thread about mutilating little kids, you should probably watch who you are calling a hypocrite.
*: And before you trot out your smug "This is totes acceptable medical procedures", please stop. I have done the research on this. This shit is deeply controversial, which is why countries around the world and medical associations around the world are quite divided on whether puberty blocking, breast removal, or genital mutilation are acceptable procedures. And, frankly, given how smugly and arrogantly you insisted shit that has proven to be wrong (like masks and vaccinations stopping the spread), your judgement is highly questionable.
You really are showing yourself to be nothing more than a typical Republican, even adopting the whole "mutilating kids" line.
You claimed above that you agreed with me that "as a general rule, libertarians should trust parents to decide what is best for their kids". And now you are stating that you don't trust parents to decide what is best for their kids when it comes to medical procedures that YOU don't like. But you demand that EVERYONE ELSE trust YOU to know what is right for YOUR kids.
So you are a wise and rational parent looking out for the best interest of your kids when you make vaccination decisions on their behalf. But those *other parents* are fiendish ghouls, child abusers, "kid mutilators", when they make a decision that you don't like.
THAT is the hypocrisy. You demand respect for your parental rights that you aren't willing to grant to everyone else.
And if you truly believe that parents should be given the benefit of the doubt for knowing how best to raise their kids, then they don't suffer the burden of proof to prove to you or anyone else that what they doing is right. The burden of proof should be on you, and the state, to prove, with a very HIGH burden of proof, that parents should be forbidden from taking a particular course of action.
“You really are showing yourself to be nothing more than a typical Republican, even adopting the whole “mutilating kids” line.”
Right- just like how my girl liking to work in the woodshop with me is showing herself to be nothing more than a typical boy, right?
Please spare me. Republicans aren’t the only people who believe it is creepy to carve out healthy reproductive organs and breast tissue. It is literally mutilation. (Deffinition: To injure severely or disfigure, especially by cutting off tissue or body parts.)
“And now you are stating that you don’t trust parents to decide what is best for their kids when it comes to medical procedures that YOU don’t like.”
This has nothing to do with medical procedures I don’t like. There is a simple moral standard: Parents are trustees who hold their children’s life and liberty in trust until those kids can fully accept the responsibilities. As is the case with any Trustee relationship, that power is not unlimited. And this is not a “general” situation, no matter how many times you toss around that word. This is a specific situation where the parent is signing the child up for a lifetime of medical care that they will have to carry throughout their adult lives instead of deferring that decision until they can make it for themselves.
As a trustee, it is a breach of your responsibilities to do this. Ethically and morally, rather than consigning your child to a lifetime of debilitating medical treatments, the appropriate action- if you believe your child has dysphoria- is to find the best treatments available to get them to the point where they can make the more drastic decision for themselves. This isn't about medical opinions: it is a fact that alternative therapies exist- from social transitioning to mental therapy. The ethical play for a parent OR a medical expert is to get that child to the point of majority where they can decide these things for themselves.
“THAT is the hypocrisy.”
No it is not. I do not have, nor do I argue for, the right of any parent to sign a child up for permanent, life altering medical procedures when there are alternatives available that allow the decision to be deferred to when the child is able to consent for themselves.
Hypocrisy would be scolding others constantly that we should “trust the parents to make medical decisions” in one thread, and then in another declaring that teachers shouldn’t be required to notify parents about their kids transitioning, because some parents can’t be trusted. You know, like you previously did.
Do you ever have a moment of humility where you might think, for once, that you don't really know what other people are going through? That maybe you are not the best moral judge to decide what is right or wrong for every person on the planet on every issue?
I note you do not seem to have such issues...
Really? All chemjeff is advocating for is allowing others to make their own decisions. He’s not actively promoting that people become transgender.
"All chemjeff is advocating for is allowing others to make their own decisions. "
No he is advocating on behalf of parents making irreparable, unproven decisions on behalf of their children. There is a difference.
nothing anyone is "going through" requires redefining language to contrast science.
There is no "redefining language". The word "man" has never EXCLUSIVELY referred to a biological definition.
Yes, it really has.
Gender is a term for grammar, which used masculine and feminine, not man or woman.
You are engaging in Orwellian abuse of language.
https://archive.org/details/con00ciseoxforddicfowlrich/page/497/mode/1up?view=theater
There's at least 20 definitions of the word "man". Only one of them relies exclusively on biology.
You do realize that your argument dies a death when reading your citation, right?
No, you likely do not.
How does it die? This very non-woke dictionary has multiple definitions for the word "man" and only one of them relies exclusively on biology.
So, no, you do not get how it showed you wrong.
It doesn't show I'm wrong.
Why do you think that is some kind of big point to score here? No one has ever said that the word "man" in English is strictly only used in senses that refer to biological sex. The point is that when "man" is used to describe an individual human, it means an adult human male. None of the definitions you point to contradict that. And no one in 1912 would have thought anything else.
No one has ever said that the word “man” in English is strictly only used in senses that refer to biological sex.
tell that to damikesc
I have not seen him argue anywhere that the word "man" only ever was used to refer directly to someone's biological sex before trans issues became prominent. Please point out where he did if I am missing something.
https://reason.com/2023/04/10/what-freedom-means-to-ron-desantis/?comments=true#comment-10010443
here he argues that the phrase "feel like a man" must refer strictly to being an adult biological male
Dude, that's pretty weak. And still doesn't mean that he can't acknowledge that the word also may have other uses whose definitions don't refer to biological sex, which is all that your dictionary link shows. Just give it up, man. We aren't talking about all of the ways the word "man" can be used. We are talking about what is a man. Up until pretty much the day before yesterday no one had any problem or ambiguity about what it meant to refer to an individual as a man.
Opposite of woman is a biological reference, as is grown boy.
Why did we invent the word “woman”?
are there keystrokes to make the little "mind blown" emoji?
There is no “redefining language”.
So "woman" has always been understood to properly refer to a man in a dress using feminine pronouns? "Men" has always been understood to include people who can get pregnant?
Both the word "man" and the word "woman" have both had a biological definition, and a cultural/sociological definition.
To be a man, BIOLOGICALLY, is to have the appropriate genetics.
To be a man, CULTURALLY, is to engage in behavior and habits that are culturally associated with biological males.
"I have a penis." <-- biological definition of man
"I wear a necktie to formal events." <-- cultural definition of man
That's silly. No one thinks that the necktie is where you look to determine whether or not someone is a man. There may be social expectations of a man (much less today than there once were, which I think is largely a good thing) and how he dresses, behaves, etc. But that's never been the definition of what it is to be a man.
Also, you may notice that many if not most words can be used in distinct but related ways. Obviously if someone tells you "be a man", they probably mean that you should toughen up, take responsibility, or whatever else besides basic biology people associate with manliness, and not that you should don't have a penis and XY chromosomes and should get some.
This was all basic shit that everyone knew and no one even thought to argue with until rather recently.
No one thinks that the necktie is where you look to determine whether or not someone is a man.
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure you aren't doing underwear checks in public in order to know whether to refer to someone as "he" or "she". You are instead, like every other sane person, looking at how he/she presents him/herself in public, according to the conventions associated with a particular sex, and using that to form a judgment.
A person convincingly wearing a tuxedo at a formal event, you'll refer to that person as "he" or "a man", even if later you come to find out that the person really had a vagina.
A person convincingly wearing a ball gown at a formal event, you'll refer to that person as "she" or "a woman", even if later you come to find out that the person really had a penis.
Obviously if someone tells you “be a man”, they probably mean that you should toughen up, take responsibility, or whatever else besides basic biology people associate with manliness, and not that you should don’t have a penis and XY chromosomes and should get some
THANK YOU. Yes we agree. But tell that to the people around here who are trying to claim that the word "man" has one and only one definition, and that is rooted strictly in biology.
We make those judgements, yes. But if we later find out that those judgements were not accurate, we update our views. We use those social cues to determine gender because they have traditionally been reliable indicators. That doesn't mean they are reliable in all circumstances. If someone makes an effort to present themselves as the opposite sex (and does a good job of it), then of course some people will see them that way. That doesn't make it reality and it doesn't make someone something they are not.
By the standards of 100 years ago, pretty much all women are cross-dressers today. That doesn't make them men by the 1912 definition.
I've had long hair for most of my life. When I was much younger I would be mistaken for a woman sometimes. Does that make me transgender?
We make those judgements, yes. But if we later find out that those judgements were not accurate, we update our views.
But I'm saying that the judgment was not inaccurate. If you see a person convincingly wear a tuxedo at a formal event, it is not inaccurate to conclude that this person is a "man" ACCORDING TO the cultural definition of the word. And if you later find out that this person really has a vagina, it is also not inaccurate to conclude that this person is a "woman" ACCORDING TO the biological definition of the word. So in a sense, this person is BOTH a man AND a woman *at the same time*, according to two different definitions of each word. And the right-wingers around here can't handle this, because this challenges all of their assumptions about sex and gender roles. There are two and only two biological sexes, yes that is correct, but there are an endless number of ways for each member of each sex to present themselves, even going so far as to mimic the opposite sex. They just can't handle that.
That's fucking stupid. If a woman puts on a tuxedo it doesn't make her a man, by any definition, even if someone mistakes her for a man.
"That’s fucking stupid. If a woman puts on a tuxedo it doesn’t make her a man, by any definition, even if someone mistakes her for a man."
Not only that, but Chemjeff is basically saying that if you want to be a man, all you have to do is conform to the cultural norms of being a man. Zeb isn't a real man, because his hair is long. He must be a woman.
This is why feminists are looking at the trans-crowd with side-eyes. 50 years ago, my mother-in-law was fighting for the right to get into a male-dominated field. But according to Chemjeff's definitions, she was actually trying to be a man. The fact that she REALLY HONESTLY feels like a woman means that she SHOULD have become a teacher, and stopped wearing pants.
And I don't even care if some men want to dress and try to behave like women and try to convince people to refer to them as women. If that's what they really think is the best way to live their lives, good for them. Reality still is what it is. And that's actually the biggest reason I'm not a supporter of "gender affirming care". They are lying to patients with real problems and telling them they are something they aren't and cannot be. No matter what kind of surgery and hormones a person gets, they will still never really be what they fell like they should be. It will always be a problem. So it just doesn't seem like a great to treat it like a problem of the body rather than a problem of the mind. Maybe that is the best course for some people, I am open to that possibility. But to make it the standard of care and claim it is the only valid way to treat gender dysphoria is absurd. There should be no shame in mental illness and there is nothing wrong with calling it what it is.
That’s fucking stupid. If a woman puts on a tuxedo it doesn’t make her a man, by any definition, even if someone mistakes her for a man.
*sigh* Right, so you can't handle it either.
When you see the person standing there, convincingly wearing a tuxedo, and you conclude that the person is a man, YOU AREN'T MAKING A MISTAKE. You are forming a valid, factual conclusion based on the information presented to you at the time. In this case, because you aren't performing an underwear check, you are concluding that this person is a man based on the social conventions that this person is exhibiting.
Not only that, but Chemjeff is basically saying that if you want to be a man, all you have to do is conform to the cultural norms of being a man.
From a social/cultural point of view, that's right.
Zeb isn’t a real man, because his hair is long. He must be a woman.
From a social/cultural point of view, short hair is typically associated with men and long hair is typically associated with women. There is no BIOLOGICAL reason for men to have short hair or women to have long hair. So to the extent Zeb (or anyone else) grows long hair, then it is entirely predictable that this person will be judged by society as "less manly", fairly or not.
This is why feminists are looking at the trans-crowd with side-eyes. 50 years ago, my mother-in-law was fighting for the right to get into a male-dominated field. But according to Chemjeff’s definitions, she was actually trying to be a man.
OMG YOU FINALLY GET IT. Yes, that is how the sexists of the past frequently viewed things - that the biological definition of a man and the social conventions associated with a man were so closely linked together that they could not be separated. So only men should be doctors and judges, because doctors and judges were all men at the time. So yes, from THEIR point of view, they must have thought that your mother-in-law was trying to "become a man" and that's why they fought to keep her out of their male-dominated professions. They were engaging in the same ridiculous reductionist arguments that the anti-trans crowd is now engaging in.
The fact that she REALLY HONESTLY feels like a woman means that she SHOULD have become a teacher, and stopped wearing pants.
Oh, I guess you didn't really get it after all. No, that's not what I think at all.
"So only men should be doctors and judges, because doctors and judges were all men at the time. So yes, from THEIR point of view, they must have thought that your mother-in-law was trying to “become a man” and that’s why they fought to keep her out of their male-dominated professions."
As I keep saying, this is ridiculous. You are redefining language in order to try and stake out this position. Bigoted men did not think that women were "trying to become a man" they thought women were trying to do work reserved for men.
You can look at history and see TONS of examples of the language in use and see that this is the case. Names of groups like "Women in Technology" by their existence put the lie to your assertion. Nobody thought women were "trying to become men". The name is clear that they are TRYING TO BECOME WOMEN IN A TECHNOLOGY FIELD.
The phrase "Women's Rights" is a clear assertion that it wasn't "biological females trying to become men." It was obviously, WOMEN trying to get the same rights as MEN. And it is incredibly disrespectful to those women to suggest that their struggle to validate the rights of women was actually a struggle to DENY their femininity and be recognized as men.
"“I have a penis.” <– biological definition of man
"I wear a necktie to formal events." <– cultural definition of man"
Chemjeff, you are undermining your own arguments.
First, I don't agree with you that this is the correct view of definitions. Zeb is largely right here that cultures imposing expectations on men- "Men wear ties, and care for the family" was not defining what men ARE, just what men du. Again, you are using correlation (men must wear ties) to infer causation (all tie wearers are (culturally) being men).
But even if I did accept your premise, you are basically saying that this proves that society has always understood a distinction between biological sex and gender roles. Um, ok, so what?
The Trans-crazies are arguing that there IS NO DISTINCTION. They are saying that if you perform the cultural acts of a man, you MUST be a man. That is a complete contravention of social order prior to very recent history.
The Trans-crazies are arguing that there IS NO DISTINCTION. They are saying that if you perform the cultural acts of a man, you MUST be a man.
If the supposed "trans-crazies" are arguing that one's choice of clothes changes one's biology, then that is truly crazy and wrong. It is not what I believe.
"If the supposed “trans-crazies” are arguing that one’s choice of clothes changes one’s biology, then that is truly crazy and wrong. It is not what I believe."
No they are arguing that biology doesn't determine your sex, but rather these "cultural choices" are what determine your gender.
Let's set aside whether or not a person can declare themselves to be a boy or girl, the trans crazies are going another step. There are books out there saying that if you do the things associated with being a boy, you are a boy. These books literally say "Little johnny really liked pink and didn't like baseball- he was actually a she!"
This is absolutely demonstrating the logical fallacy I pointed out above- it is saying that because many people who express a female gender like pink, then it means that if you like pink you are expressing a female gender.
Sometimes a biological woman wears a tux because she has chosen the male gender and is presenting that. Sometimes a biological woman wears a tux because she is explicitly rejecting the notion that tuxedos ought to be reserved to the male gender.
Again, the left- for decades- has been insisting that these gender roles and cultural roles are not who you are. Only the trans movement is undermining that. Imagine a white kid deciding they liked "culturally black" activities, and a race activist writing books that declared, "Little johnny was actually a black boy!"
"A person convincingly wearing a tuxedo at a formal event, you’ll refer to that person as “he” or “a man”, even if later you come to find out that the person really had a vagina."
Fair enough, but I reserve the right to judge a person un-convincingly dressing as the opposite gender likely mentally unstable, or attention-seeking. Like all people, I treat them politely but am afraid that the current youth are voluntarily giving themselves neuroses in an effort to be edgy and differentiate themselves from older generations. Time will tell.
"[I] am afraid that the current youth are voluntarily giving themselves neuroses"
No, it is the opposite: They are being given neuroses by crazy trans activists. Again, my daughter is in the Scouts. She is being told *by teachers* that doing "boy" things like camping and whittling means that she must be a boy. Untangling that claptrap has been a crazy, crazy ride.
@overt, that is really fucked up. Especially after a few generations where attitudes shifted (positively in my view) about how we should think of stereotypically gendered activities. Now we're back to a weirdo version of sexual determinism.
Someone posted a link to some chest binding products being sold by...Target? I dunno. But the brand was Tomboy.
This is what the trans-crazies are pushing: the notion that if you are a TOMBOY you obviously want to be a boy. And that is just bullshit.
Out of curiosity, if a 9 year old wants to be Batman, do we kill the parents in a dark alley?
According to Jeff and the rest if the leftists, it's the only moral choice.
Suppose a parent wants his daughter to have her clitoris excised at age 6, or 1, or 10...?
Should that be allowed?
I am pretty sure American society has already decided this issue. It seems to me that clitoral excision is a minor modification when compared to the "gender affirming" craziness.
If I were 6 years old and my balls were on the chopping block, I would want them protected from my parents' love.
Is it a valid medical procedure to treat a valid, diagnosed medical condition?
that's the real crux of the issue here. you all don't think transgenderism is real, that gender dysphoria is a real disease, or that gender affirming care is a real treatment for that disease. you are substituting your judgment for that of the doctors and the counselors.
that is the arrogance and the hubris in this entire discussion. you cannot help but to insert your moral busybodiness into their lives.
No.
We feel gender dysphoria is real.
We feel that neutering and slicing open children suffering from it is cruel, not helpful. It's also cruel for adults, but adults are allowed to ruin their own lives.
You'd probably call anorexics fat.
We feel that neutering and slicing open children suffering from it is cruel, not helpful.
Duly noted. Now tell us why your judgment should be substituted for the judgment of the parents involved.
Because my judgment would not leave the children neutered and maimed.
You're aware parents do not have carte blanche to do whatever they want to their children. Child abuse laws exist, after all.
I also would override a parental desire to lend out their children for sex parties. I guess I just have a superiority complex.
Again with the sex references. Childhood sex is not a valid treatment for any diagnosable disease.
And I hate to break it to you, but there are lots of completely valid medical procedures to treat diagnosable disease that leave children "maimed and neutered". It is terribly sad, but it exists. Such as treatments for childhood cancer.
Maybe we should have you in the operating room giving your permission to the doctor before he does anything? "Should I cut here?" "No, not there. Over there is okay though!"
Ahh, but your retort will be "but childhood cancer is a REAL disease, not that fake tranny bullshit!" Which is my point above. That the real crux of the matter isn't the treatment but your BELIEF that it's not a real disease, or that the treatment is valid, coupled with the ARROGANCE that you think you have some moral right to impose your moral judgment on others in this regard.
"Again with the sex references. Childhood sex is not a valid treatment for any diagnosable disease."
Neutering kids is not one, either.
"And I hate to break it to you, but there are lots of completely valid medical procedures to treat diagnosable disease that leave children “maimed and neutered”. It is terribly sad, but it exists. Such as treatments for childhood cancer."
No, treatments may cause that. It is not the primary goal. Childhood cancer treatments do not AIM to neuter children. Much like CPR does not AIM to crack ribs, but it happens when performing it.
"Maybe we should have you in the operating room giving your permission to the doctor before he does anything? “Should I cut here?” “No, not there. Over there is okay though!”"
If a surgeon is willing to slice up a child because of feelings --- then, yes, I likely should be there. Or anybody who is not being paid to maim kids.
"Ahh, but your retort will be “but childhood cancer is a REAL disease, not that fake tranny bullshit!” Which is my point above. That the real crux of the matter isn’t the treatment but your BELIEF that it’s not a real disease, or that the treatment is valid, coupled with the ARROGANCE that you think you have some moral right to impose your moral judgment on others in this regard."
Slicing off body parts or neutering kids because of feelings is not a viable treatment.
Say...do you have kids?
Slicing off body parts… because of feelings is not a viable treatment.
What about religion and a “covenant” with God… Is that a valid reason to slice off body parts of, for instance, a male infant child? Do we need laws to protect those children from the decisions of their parents?
Got it. You are an unapologetic moral busybody who thinks that your moral judgment should outweigh the decisions of parents, doctors, counselors and therapists. Just confirming what I wrote above about Team Red. Liberty is merely a privilege granted to those who behave morally.
What about religion and a “covenant” with God… Is that a valid reason to slice off body parts of, for instance, a male infant child?
Shush, Leo. Damikesc the Supreme Moral Leader of the Universe is in charge. He will declare for us all what is morally allowed and what is forbidden.
Leo, are the kids neutered?
I have kids, so I can say with some confidence it does not.
I'm legitimately curious. Seems like the argument from conservatives on this is at best a slippery slope that they should at least consider when it comes to circumcision.
Damiksec, it seems you’ve shifted the goalposts. Your original wording was “slicing off body parts or neutering.”
My point is only that this is a slippery slope argument. I don’t think you would be for the state interfering on the child’s behalf in the case of circumcision.
I’ll fully admit that the requirement to justify gender transitioning a minor should be extremely steep compared to circumcision. But they are not completely unrelated. A child that later becomes an atheist, for instance, might also be very upset about a decision that was made about him without his consent. Not sure that we really want the state involved in all aspects of our lives that are best left to the medical community.
"My point is only that this is a slippery slope argument. I don’t think you would be for the state interfering on the child’s behalf in the case of circumcision."
Would not support it banning ear piercings, either.
Your example is asinine, but feel free to pursue it.
Well, there certainly are people who think that male circumcision is mutilation that shouldn't be allowed. And plenty of people who do it to their children for non-religious reasons. And there is a legitimate debate to be had, but some things really are more important and worth worrying about than others. Male circumcision leaves sexual function fully intact and doesn't seem to cause much harm. You can't say that about FGM or many of the hormone and surgical treatments used for trans treatments.
"Would not support it banning ear piercings, either."
That’s right. Because circumcision and ear piercings are acceptable practices among damikesc’s tribe. But gender affirming care is not.
For him it’s tribes uber alles
Gender affirming care is keeping them the sex they are. It had already been affirmed genetically.
YOU seek sex changes and demand an Orwellian change to language.
May I remind you gentlemen that you are arguing with an avowed "trans-logic" fascist who will NEVER change its mind about ANYTHING? It is incapable of admitting error, in ANY way, even when facts and logic point that way, with clear rigor!
Hey Damiksec, damiskec, and damikesc, and ALL of your other socks…
How is your totalitarian scheme to FORCE people to buy Reason magazines coming along?
Free speech (freedom from “Cancel Culture”) comes from Facebook, Twitter, Tik-Tok, and Google, right? THAT is why we need to pass laws to severely constrict these DANGEROUS companies (which, ugh!, the BASTARDS, put profits above people!)!!! We must pass new laws to retract “Section 230” and FORCE the evil corporations to provide us all (EXCEPT for my political enemies, of course!) with a “UBIFS”, a Universal Basic Income of Free Speech!
So leftist “false flag” commenters will inundate Reason-dot-com with shitloads of PROTECTED racist comments, and then pissed-off readers and advertisers and buyers (of Reason magazine) will all BOYCOTT Reason! And right-wing idiots like Damikesc will then FORCE people to support Reason, so as to nullify the attempts at boycotts! THAT is your ultimate authoritarian “fix” here!!!
“Now, to “protect” Reason from this meddling here, are we going to REQUIRE readers and advertisers to support Reason, to protect Reason from boycotts?”
Yup. Basically. Sounds rough. (Quote damikesc)
(Etc.)
See https://reason.com/2020/06/24/the-new-censors/
(And Asshole Extraordinaire will NEVER take back its' totalitarian bullshit!!!! 'Cause Asshole Extraordinaire is already PERFECT in every way!!!)
This (above damikesc quote) is a gem of the damnedest dumbness of damikesc! Like MANY “perfect in their own minds” asshole authoritarians around here, he will NEVER take back ANY of the stupidest and most evil things that he has written! I have more of those on file… I deploy them to warn other readers to NOT bother to try and reason with the most utterly unreasonable of the nit-wit twits here!
We cannot live in a society with lying, psychotic child abusers like Jeff, Leo, or mike.
They are not people.
They are literally cancer.
Leo: Plenty of libertarians have argued here over the years on why male circumcision violates the NAP. So there is a consistent position, from a libertarian perspective.
Of course male circumcision or ear piercing very rarely have long term consequences that require constant medical care for the rest of the child’s life (or lead to increased suicide rates), so many bear would say it’s not remotely the same thing.
Jeff: No matter what surgeries you perform or what hormones you pump them with, their biology isn’t changing. So you’re not advocating for affirming their gender, you’re advocating for cosmetic surgery.
DesigNate, I am not *advocating* for anyone to get or not get any particular surgery. I just want the moral busybodies to butt out and let parents, children, doctors, therapists and counselors work it out themselves without all of the outside interference.
Jeff, you do advocate it includingetting teachers convince kids while hiding it from parents.
Transsexualism is a real mental disorder. I don’t think anyone disputes that.
Don't know about the others, but I think whether transgenderism is real or not and whether gender dysphoria is a real disease or not are irrelevant here. Whether gender-affirming care is a real treatment for a real disease IS the question. If you try to claim that it is a real treatment for a real disease, you're going to have to support it with real science and not fake psychiatric bullshit to convince anyone else.
If you try to claim that it is a real treatment for a real disease, you’re going to have to support it with real science and not fake psychiatric bullshit to convince anyone else.
Why should anyone have to prove that *to you*? Why isn't it enough that the parents of the child in question are convinced?
What if they are convinced childhood vaccines are no good?
Obviously, you don't have to convince anyone else. We can just prosecute you for surgically maiming your children and punish the surgeons for carrying out unethical experiments on children. Is that what you want? Because in the real world you DO have to prove that "treatment" is scientifically the best available option to save the life or health of minors in your care. How to go about scientifically proving things is certainly up for debate, but whether you have to or not is NOT up for debate, even in a libertarian society.
Who is the "we" that is doing the prosecuting here?
If you think the issue should be settled via lawsuits, then that is far preferable than pre-emptive bans by governments preventing anyone from receiving care. At least in a legal challenge, the merits of individual cases are evaluated, instead of blanket generalizations.
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If a doctor harms a patient accidentally she may be liable for damages; and in some cases for criminal manslaughter prosecution. Negligence is usually the key for tort decisions. If a doctor can demonstrate that the diagnosis was supported by consensus of the scientific community, that the treatment was also chosen and carried out according to "best medical practice" standards then they will not be held liable. The standards are different for parents but you should get the general idea. If a child is harmed by the parents or by medical professionals and they cannot cite a medical standard or an ethically supported medical experiment in their defense, then bad things may happen to them. If you think this is a bad system, then by all means try to convince us of a better system.
I realized after I replied that I didn't really address your issue. The point I was trying to make was that the difference between mutilating your children illegally and performing an appropriate medical procedure is medical consensus and best practice standards. It's not enough for a trained professional - with or without a license from the state - to simply say, "I think this is what's happening and this is a good way to treat it." The only way society can evaluate this is through the best available scientific evidence and some kind of agreement from the general scientific community. It's not enough for a psychiatric shaman to say that criminally insane people stop being a danger to society when they perform a prefrontal lobotomy, so we should treat all badly behaved people with prefrontal lobotomies! Most sane people would not consider "psychiatrists say this is a real thing so we should perform permanent surgery on children" to be adequate, although they might agree with, "Psychiatrists say this is a real thing and we should help the children with emotional support and study it further." On the other hand, spine surgeons after developing new MRI technology started doing a lot more spine surgeries until, about ten years into the experiment, they started realizing that the indications for surgery they were finding on the MRIs were causing 50% of their patients to get worse. Oops!
Well in that case, there are best practice standards right now for gender affirming therapy.
https://www.wpath.org/soc8
But Team Red rejects those and thinks it should be banned anyway.
Absolutely I think that doctors should be held liable for not conforming to a recognized standard of care.
Wpath is an advocacy organization you grooming fuck.
Most of Europe is already retreating from their flawed guidance based on actual science.
Is gender dysphoria real? At least some of it is. There is plenty of evidence that much of it right now is due to social contagion. And I do not think there is an objective understanding in the medical community about what is, why it is, and really how to diagnose it.
I expect that “gender affirming care” is an awful way of treating it. Permanently excising healthy,functioning organs and appendages to treat a dysfunction of the mind seems primitive, at best, and not solving the underlying problem. This period in medical will be looked at some day in the same way we consider the time when prefrontal lobotomy was considered a valid treatment.
fuck off, slaver
You may be a Kennedy.
"Is it a valid medical procedure to treat a valid, diagnosed medical condition?"
No, it is not. No more than having one two many clits (i.e. one clit) is a valid medical condition. Show me a doctor who diagnoses a 6 year old as having the "wrong sex morphology" and prescribes castration without delay and I will be looking to revoke that doctor's license to practice medicine. If a doctor thinks a child has gender dysphoria, then wait till the kid grows up.
If an adult decides to be voluntarily castrated, I won't intervene. Not my balls, not my decision.
What you fail to realize (or are deliberately ignoring) is that transgenderism is being pushed on kids. Sometimes by teachers, sometimes by parents, but it's being done.
And children are easily enflunced and manipulated, unable to understand the consequences of their actions.
This transgender push is the most massive systemic child abuse ever perpetrated, and it really does demand a violent response to serve justice.
Let us know when you get started on that so we can watch for you on the news.
"Is it a valid medical procedure to treat a valid, diagnosed medical condition?"
Oh wait, now you have changed your argument. Just awhile ago, you were saying that it's up to the parents to decide what is a "valid" reason to perform permanent changes on a child.
Now you are adding a condition, that in fact, there is some objective standard like there being "valid" medical procedures.
Because, if that is the case, then one of the litmus tests of "valid" is whether the government agrees it is valid, and you should praise DeSantis for clarifying there.
Why is government approval required for a medical procedure to be medically valid? By way of example, using marijuana to treat glaucoma was a valid medical treatment even when the government was strictly enforcing the war on pot.
Organ harvesting is a valid medical procedure. Can a parent agree to sell their kids spare kidney?
“Why is government approval required for a medical procedure to be medically valid?”
Why is ANYONE required to declare ANY medical procedure valid?
You started off by saying that parents should be able to choose what they feel is appropriate. But when people brought up female circumcision, you objected that it is not a “valid treatment for a diagnosed medical condition.”
You can’t have it both ways. Some parents believe that female circumcision is a valid treatment for a girl’s spiritual wellbeing and salvation. Now either you accept that it is ok for parents to make that decision on behalf of the child, or you are (how did you put it? Oh yes…) a “moral busybody” who is arrogantly telling parents what to do.
If you do believe that there is a point where a parent’s decision must be pre-empted, then at that point we are merely haggling price. You and I have both agreed that there are points where OUR moral standards override the standards of the parents, and it is just a matter of deciding when that line is crossed. Of course, that means you lose your pretentious high-ground where you act as if conservatives are the only people imposing their morality on others.
But clitoridectomy is done by icky people, while sex surgery is done by the smart set.
Indeed, it is. And irreversible sex change of children is orders of magnitude more icky, though they might be smart.
We also don't allow parents to consent on behalf of their children to have sex with strangers. We've been tyrants like that for a long, long time.
As far as I know, having sex with strangers is not a valid medical treatment for a diagnosable disease.
Slicing off genitals and neutering children is not one, either.
https://www.yalemedicine.org/conditions/pediatric-cancer-treatment
Most pediatric cancers are treated with surgery, chemotherapy, radiation, or a combination of those therapies.
Today, hopefully, you will learn the difference the AIM of a treatment and a possible REPURCUSSION of a treatment.
If I perform CPR on you and a rib of yours gets broken...the ribs being broken are not the aim.
The aim is the same in both cases - to treat the disease.
No, it really is not.
Especially given that the suicide rate is not improved (and that is the only actual "problem" trannies have that "surgeries" are "supposed" to fix.)
Drug companies love them because, well, they have lifetime patients that cannot ever get off the drugs.
Good to know you'd be on board with medical experiments on people not able to consent to them. Tuskegee was not that bad, eh?
Yes it is, your lame attempt at mind-reading notwithstanding.
I love how you right-wingers now have turned on the profit motive as being evil now.
I've said all along that any medical decision of this magnitude should be done only with the consent of the parents, so your lame gotcha also fails.
To pretend that nobody does bad things in pursuit of profit is to be blind to reality. I'm glad to see that, ample evidence to the contrary, you have this naive belief that companies have your best interests at heart always.
And, again, letting your children fuck strangers is a decision of high magnitude that we should leave to parents, right?
Jeff, you have been given the studies showing no improvement long term in any measurable statistic dozens of times. Your goal is not health improvement.
Why are detransition rates sky rocketing? Why are depression levels the same? You are intentinally pushing lies to protect your views.
Do try to keep up. We are talking about valid medical procedures to treat diagnosed diseases. We're not talking about children having sex with strangers. And WTF is up with you all and kids having sex? It is creepy.
You generally do not treat a disease by removing healthy body parts.
Chemotherapy is *literally* killing healthy cells along with cancerous cells in order to eliminate the cancer.
The goal is not to kill the healthy cells. It is a likely result of the treatment, but the GOAL is not to kill the healthy cells.
Jesus, you're dense.
You do understand thar cancers are not healthy tissue, right? Comparing removing a cancerous mass to removing healthy reproductive organs is not an equivalent comparison.
No one should give a fuck about your judgment on the matter.
Just butt out and let other people live their lives.
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So long as voting is universal, all opinions are valid.
"Just butt out and let other people treat their children worse than farm animals."—Jeffy
God, that is dumb. Jeffy, you are not a functional human being.
One of you should let ENB know.
As far as I know, having sex with strangers is not a valid medical treatment for a diagnosable disease.
What's the diagnosable disease here and what's the "valid medical treatment" you're talking about?
As far as I know, having sex with strangers is not a valid medical treatment for a diagnosable disease.
What if the child identifies as a horny adult?
Remember the 90s when the biggest fear was that religious, Christian Scientist parents were subjecting their children to faith healing, and that the parents didn't have a right to do that?
Equating parents who fail in their duty of care with those who have successfully executed their duty of care?
No, you aren't biased at all.
"The anti-trans nonsense is about preventing PARENTS from granting consent on behalf of their minor children."
If a PARENT granted consent on behalf of the child to commit suicide, or sign up for a 30 year military tour, or have their arm removed, is that acceptable, Chemjeff? Or are there some limits to what a PARENT can consent to, on behalf of the child?
I've tried to ask him to draw the line many times. He won't—revealing his support of trans-mutilation to be a special pleading.
Sure, we can talk about limits on what parents can do while caring for children. But before we do that, we first have to establish some ground rules.
Above, you claimed that you agreed with me that as a general rule, as libertarians, in cases of doubt, we should defer to the best judgment of parents to decide how best to raise their children, and so I'm going to hold you to that.
Based on this agreement, then, the burden of proof should rest on those wishing to ban procedures or punish parents to prove their case. The burden of proof should *NOT* be on parents to justify why they are doing what they are doing. The default assumption is that they are competent, and those wishing to prove otherwise should have to face a high burden to try to prove that the parents are not.
If you are okay with this ground rule, then we can talk all you want about parents raising children.
And as far as I can see, I think that gender affirming care is enough of a gray area that the government, and all of the moral busybodies around here, should butt out and let parents decide what they think is best. These procedures have been around for a while, there is an actual documented medical standard of care endorsed by doctors and therapists, and it is intended to treat a real diagnosable medical condition.
And as I said above, I am fine with imposing some restrictions on the procedure to make absolutely certain that the diagnosis is valid and all parties involved clearly have fully informed consent. Also as I have said above, I think doctors should be held accountable for any deviations from established standards of care, for this procedure or any other procedure. But I don't support pre-emptive bans.
And if you think gender affirming care should be banned, then the burden of proof should be on you to prove that it is not a valid treatment or that the disease is not a real disease, or that the parents are intentionally trying to inflict harm on their kids or something.
And by the way I am not *advocating* for anyone to get gender affirming surgery. Just like I don't *advocate* for anyone to start a heroin habit, I just don't think it should be illegal.
Again, I have not agreed that there is a blanket rule of "trust the parents." I have agreed that as the trustee of the child, Parents have wide latitude in what they do with their children- just as the trustee of an estate has wide latitude. Being free to make certain decisions does not mean you avoid scrutiny for those decisions. And this is especially true when the decisions you are making have long standing costs that will be born by the child after you cease to be the trustee.
"The default assumption is that they are competent, and those wishing to prove otherwise should have to face a high burden to try to prove that the parents are not."
This standard is unworkable, as you have numerous times admitted by constantly falling back on the "is it a valid procedure to treat a disease?" metric.
Let's be clear, according to your standard, if you saw a mom pimping a child out on the street, giving them the benefit of the doubt would mean not being able to object. Every time someone brings up something like female circumcision, slavery, abuse or other act upon the child, you fall back to "is it a valid procedure to treat a disease?"
Well, as soon as you fall back on that metric, you are admitting that "just trust the parents" isn't enough. You are arguing that there are many things where we DO NOT give the benefit of the doubt to the parent.
Indeed, mere months ago you were arguing just the OPPOSITE, when your team was being hit from the other side. Teachers were being required to inform parents before assisting a child to transition. And you specifically said sometimes the parents couldn't be trusted to make the right decision for the child- that they might abuse or otherwise harm the child.
Indeed all last year, you were arguing that parents shouldn't get to choose what lessons kids would get in school, because "if we must pay for public education" we should be teaching certain things, even if the parents object to it.
So here we have multiple examples of you declining to give the benefit of the doubt to parents, while claiming that conservatives are assholes for not giving the benefit of the doubt on THIS SPECIFIC culture war item- all while claiming the conservatives are the ones engaged in a culture war, and calling me a hypocrite.
I have told you my view of where a parent's rights begin and end. It just so happens that making permanent medical decisions on gender reassignment fall outside that.
"These procedures have been around for a while, there is an actual documented medical standard of care endorsed by doctors and therapists, and it is intended to treat a real diagnosable medical condition."
No there isn't. There is not "A" standard. There are multiple standards, and this is a very controversial subject. Given how you and your side threw out decades of research on masks to claim you owned The Science! (tm) only to be proven wrong, I am not going to accept your appeal to authority here. It is a fact that for decades even adults had to go through a LONG series of interventions before transitioning. It is a fact that less than a decade ago, the idea of transitioning at a young age was roundly rejected by medical consensus. It is a fact that medical authorities around the world have taken VERY different stances from wpath on this, and it is a fact that they are not THEY authority on this matter.
So you are not accurate in your depiction of the medical science. You are in fact choosing the science that happens to agree with you, just as you did when you were in here morally scolding people for not wearing their masks. You were wrong then, and I have no reason to believe that you have gotten any better at reviewing the science since then- especially when you haven't even shown the slightest amount of contrition for the moral scolding you engaged in (wrongly) for two years. The evidence is that you actually don't have a read on the science- you merely search for the positions that make it easier for you to morally scold people.
Again, I have not agreed that there is a blanket rule of “trust the parents.”
Obviously.
have agreed that as the trustee of the child, Parents have wide latitude in what they do with their children- just as the trustee of an estate has wide latitude. Being free to make certain decisions does not mean you avoid scrutiny for those decisions. And this is especially true when the decisions you are making have long standing costs that will be born by the child after you cease to be the trustee.
Okay, so let's just take this trustee example for a moment. Who decides what the scope of this trustee's powers are? You? Team Red? Your busybody neighbors? The state?
I would argue that the libertarian approach should be that parents should be trusted to do what is best right up until the point that they violate the natural rights of the children. And that if there is a gray area, we should give the benefit of the doubt to the parents that they know what is best for raising their kids. Do you agree or disagree with this statement? Yes or no?
So slavery, abuse, prostitution, are all out because they violate the natural rights of kids. Female genital mutilation is out because it violates the natural rights of kids. Gender affirming therapy is a much grayer area because it is a *valid medical procedure* to treat a *diagnosable disease*, and based on your trustee analogy, parents have an OBLIGATION, as trustee, to get medical care for their kids.
Teachers were being required to inform parents before assisting a child to transition. And you specifically said sometimes the parents couldn’t be trusted to make the right decision for the child- that they might abuse or otherwise harm the child.
I never argued that, and I challenge you to pull out whatever quote you have from your dossier that says otherwise. I never once argued that schools should assist kids to transition without parental consent. Instead, IIRC, in this hypothetical situation, a kid told teachers at the school that he/she was uncomfortable with parents knowing about his/her desire to transition, and Team Red was cruelly disregarding such concerns and demanding that parents be informed regardless and if it meant the kid got a beating at home, then so be it. Instead, MY position was that the school should facilitate a discussion between the parents and the kid, with a counselor as necessary, so that not only everyone was fully informed, but also that everyone was kept safe in case there was some real potential for harm or abuse. THAT is the responsible position on the matter, not this "I don't care if he gets beaten at home, parents rights are parents rights" nonsense. So no, you are completely misrepresenting what I wrote. And YOU were on the team that was, at a minimum, casually disregarding the real potential for child abuse.
Indeed all last year, you were arguing that parents shouldn’t get to choose what lessons kids would get in school, because “if we must pay for public education” we should be teaching certain things, even if the parents object to it.
*Some* parents should not get to choose for *ALL KIDS* what the curriculum should be based on the objections of *some* parents. I fully support parents' right to homeschool their own kids and to teach their kids whatever they want. I don't support parents exercising some veto over the educational content for ALL KIDS. See the difference here?
And let's also separate the difference between what I think parents have a right to do, and what I think parents ought to do. I think parents have the right to teach their kids that Jesus rode dinosaurs and the Earth is 6000 years old. I don't think parents *ought* to do that. I think parents *ought* to give their kids a well-rounded classical liberal education that teaches them basic skills as well as having the mental tools necessary to be a competent and productive citizen in society.
So your two lame gotcha moments fail here. And I am disappointed that you resort to such crude tactics, that is more reminiscent of a Jesse or ML type of stunt.
No there isn’t. There is not “A” standard. There are multiple standards, and this is a very controversial subject.
It is controversial, I totally agree. Parents are allowed to choose controversial medical procedures for helping their kids how they think is best. It is their call.
But I have now laid out my standard as best as I can. What is your standard? You don't agree with a "trust the parents" position. You think parents are trustees over their children. Okay. What is the extent of this trustee relationship? Who decides when the parents have gone too far? Do we appoint Ron DeSantis and Josh Hawley as the Supreme Moral Overlords for Raising Children?
"Okay, so let’s just take this trustee example for a moment. Who decides what the scope of this trustee’s powers are?"
This is a matter of finding a third party who does not have a personal stake in the decision. In cases of trustee relationships, you usually appoint one or more advocates who is not a party to the decisions.
For example, let's take the kids out of this and talk about a trustee of an estate. They have a responsibility to ensure that the estate is taken care of and its resources used appropriately. That gives them the ability to exercise many of the rights of the estate on its behalf (signing contracts, spending money, setting up relationships, allowing or disallowing the use of property).
If you, the trustee decided to write a check to your own personal business, you would be prohibited by regulation and law. It is also an ethical violation of your duties. If you were to write a check to a charity you are passionate about, even then, it is possible you are ethically violating your duties if you are solely serving YOUR self interests, and not those of the estate. If you were to sign a long term contract with a vendor who over-charges for a service, that decision could be preemptively challenged by an advocate, or other parties.
"if there is a gray area, we should give the benefit of the doubt to the parents that they know what is best for raising their kids"
In the case of a trustee relationship, this is not sufficient. Yes, trustees are given some benefit of the doubt. But their latitude receives GREATER scrutiny as the implications of their decision increase. A trustee may be left to their own devices on day-to-day activities, but receive enormous scrutiny when they decide to do something major, like sell property and roll the proceeds into a speculative investment that has high maintenance costs. In fact, they may even be preemptively constrained from doing specific egregious things that have a high likelihood of being a violation of the trust (c.f. moving money to other countries, signing contracts in perpetuity, etc).
"I would argue that the libertarian approach should be that parents should be trusted to do what is best right up until the point that they violate the natural rights of the children."
You haven't clarified anything. You have just changed your subjective moral handwaving from "medically valid treatment" to "violates the natural rights". You have not provided any definition behind this.
You have not explained how cutting a girls mammary glands out to conform to a societal norm of "what men look like" is NOT a violation of natural rights, while performing female circumcision to conform to a societal norm of "what girls look like" is such a violation.
You have not explained how having the child work at the family business is not a violation of natural rights until that business is a brothel.
"I never argued that, and I challenge you to pull out whatever quote you have from your dossier that says otherwise"
https://reason.com/2022/07/21/a-right-to-contraception/?comments=true#comment-9610789
"If the teacher thinks that there is a real chance for abuse, the teacher has an ethical obligation not to knowingly subject that kid to abuse. I *do* think that the parents ought to be told, eventually."
(And it is incredibly disingenuous of you to *demand* I provide citations and then act creeped out that I have the records you want me to produce. If you did not always demand cites, I wouldn't have the citations.)
This is you claiming that a teacher has the right- without any hard proof- to strip the benefit of the doubt from the parent and NOT TELL THEM. Whether they may "eventually" be told or not, the choice right now to not IMMEDIATELY contact the parents is removing the benefit of the doubt that they know what is right for their kid.
If instead we were to follow your standard, then it isn't the teacher's business. It isn't the counselor's business. It isn't even the child's business. The parent has the benefit of the doubt, and a teacher has an obligation to NOT allow the child to receive treatment (either administered by a school therapist, the teacher or the child themselves) for their dysphoria without the parent's consent. Full stop.
*If* the teacher has reason to believe the kid will be beaten for ANY reason, then their ethical duty is to report the situation to the state, who is the sole arbiter of whether or not the child is in an abusive relationship.
"And let’s also separate the difference between what I think parents have a right to do, and what I think parents ought to do"
No you can read in that same thread that you are arguing that it is appropriate for teachers to teach certain gender morality EVEN IF it contravenes the intent of the parents. You stated that you are "in favor of teachers telling kids that they don’t have to be bound by rigid gender roles that society might want to place upon them. "
Let's be clear- this isn't about parents negotiating how schools will teach through the process. This is you directly saying that Schools should over-ride the parents' decisions on what to teach. This is admitting that you are perfectly ok with State agents teaching kids some gender-queer theories against a parents' wishes.
"And I am disappointed that you resort to such crude tactics, that is more reminiscent of a Jesse or ML type of stunt."
You are the one insisting that your moral framework can win the day, and I am pointing out cases in your own words where even you agree that "giving the benefit of the doubt" to the parent is not acceptable.
But I'll make a deal with you: you stop trying to use gotcha statements to accuse me of hypocrisy and I will stop trying to use gotcha statements to accuse you of hypocrisy. You acting like the wounded martyr looks petty and manipulative, and I am merely responding in kind. Or is it ok for you to use these tactics because you believe that I *really* am a hypocrite?
"It is controversial, I totally agree. Parents are allowed to choose controversial medical procedures for helping their kids how they think is best. It is their call."
Not so fast. You have multiple times tried suggesting that we should give less scrutiny *because* wpath or other advocates assert this is a valid medical procedure. Are you now backing off that claim? Do you agree that in fact, it is hotly disputed whether this is a valid procedure to treat gender dysphoria?
I'm not going to let you escape this one. You have been morally scolding people- implying that conservatives are on the wrong side of medical science- because you have found a couple of position papers endorsing gender reassignment on children. It is absolutely valid for me and others to point out that those position papers are not representative of the medical consensus today, and that this groundswell of advocacy is very similar to the same phenomenon that occurred with masking- where decades of research was thrown out in lieu of new, shoddy studies, that ultimately were proven wrong.
If you are going to use the existence of wpath as evidence that gender reassignment passes some test of "validity" then you must consider counter evidence.
"But I have now laid out my standard as best as I can."
No you haven't you have not made your stance any more clear, because you have not explained how a gender reassignment is morally different than clitoral removal. You have not explained how it is ok for parent A to permanently remove a child's sex organ in the hopes it will help their mental well-being, while it is NOT ok for a parent to permanently remove a sex organ in the hopes it will help their spiritual and mental well-being.
You have just made up a term- "violate natural rights" and assume that earns the bases you want. It does not.
But I have laid out the framework of a trustee relationship. I have explained that you cross a moral line when your actions are not in the best interest of your charge (child). The difference between your position and mine is that you claim to always give the benefit of the doubt to parents in cases where there is a "grey" area. I have noted that it isn't the ambiguity that is the problem, but rather the result.
If the impact of a decision is minor on the child's life then wide latitude should be given. If the impact is major (such as permanently disabling biological functions, and consigning the child to a lifetime of pain, or dependency on drugs, or other non-standard rituals), then the appropriate action is to delay the intervention until the child can make those decisions as an adult.
The difference between your handwaving and my framework is that mine can explain why it is both wrong to perform female circumcision and child sex changes.
See what I mean?
No minors are receiving gender-confirming genital surgery in the United States.
Why do I keep hammering that point home. Because you have to question why a political team feels the need to campaign for laws against a thing that isn’t even happening.
They want the self-righteous buzz of being a culture warrior, the moral blank check of accumulating lists of grievances that justify their “fighting back” in extreme ways.
"Why do I keep hammering that point home. Because you have to question why a political team feels the need to campaign for laws against a thing that isn’t even happening."
Why complain about a ban if it does not happen regardless?
1. I’m not opposed to a ban on surgeries itself. I am criticizing the conservatives for the culture warring, grandstanding, chicken-little-ing that is used to sell the ban.
2. Red state bans have a tendency to go too far, tromping on liberties and parental rights.
You want to ban penis, vagina, and breasts surgeries for minors, go ahead (be consistent about breast surgery and ban it for cosmetic reasons, too).
You want to ban hormone therapy, that’s more debatable. Perhaps some therapies if they are done with drugs given at dosages that cause irreversible damage, but that area is more complex than conservative culture warriors make it out to be.
You want to ban K-12 schools promoting transgender ideology or counseling kids without their parents knowledge, fine.
You want to ban the same thing at the college level, you are tromping on academic freedom.
You want to ban medical or psychological professionals even talking about gender and related medical treatments, you are pissing on free speech rights.
You aren't hammering a point home, you're hammering a lie home. You've been shown how it is a lie multiple times. One glaring public example being Jazz Jennings. Age 17.
“Why do I keep hammering that point home. Because you have to question why a political team feels the need to campaign for laws against a thing that isn’t even happening.”
You keep hammering this point home because you are being disingenuous.
1) It is a fact that minors under 18 HAVE HAD genital surgery in the past. Therefore, whether it is common or not today, understanding that it has happened is enough to deal with its legality, and Mike’s argument is meaningless.
2) It is a fact that government officials at the highest levels, including the Assistant Secretary of Health, Levine, have been pushing to get genital surgery cleared for minors. Recent emails from her prove this to be the case.https://twitter.com/MegEBrock/status/1594691216184049664/photo/1
3) Mike continues to harp on the “genital surgery for minors” as if it is the totality of what is being legislated. Minors are also having their mammary glands removed, meaning that they will never be able to nurse a baby if they decide that they are girls after all. Boys and girls are also being given puberty blockers which have lasting and irreparable affects on those children’s lives- with the totality of those affects only beginning to be understood. These are also covered under this legislation.
Mike has been repeatedly shown the above, and yet this subject never comes up without him repeating this “no genital surgery on minors” thing. It is not true, and even if it were true, it doesn’t discredit the concerns around the trans-cult’s harming of children. They are trying to push more of this harm, and beyond genital surgery they are harming kids in myriad ways that do not include genital mutilation. He knows this, and yet persists in peddling this tired distraction.
minors under 18 HAVE HAD genital surgery in the past.
Not just in the past. It is still being done on very young boys as a "treatment" for deformity or injury to the external genitalia. I'm also skeptical of claims that it is no longer being done on minor teens, given that it has been admitted to in the recent past, but I don't have the live feed from the operating room that Liarson demands.
"If not allowing minors, who are not able to give informed consent"
But their parents are. That's the basis of medical care for minors.
"to get surgery that will sterilize them for life"
Top surgery happens in .01% of cases. If cultural conservatives are so confident in their position, why do they always talk about something that almost never happens? That is called an appeal to emotion and is a logical fallacy.
"is “anti-freedom”, then so be it"
Unless it is about acknowledging gay and trans people exist in K-3 (now K-12) classes, right?
"There is a strong scent of cult like dogmatism in the trans activist movement that seems to preclude any rational discussion of this issue."
Only at the fringes. In exactly the same way cult-like anti-trans rhetoric would hopefully be banished to the fringes of the right. Like constantly talking about surgery, even though it is a vanishingly small transition process.
Unfortunately, mainstream cultural conservatives like DeSantis are embracing the crazy and claiming it's reasonable.
An Eric Boehm article with DeSantis in the title?
Did I moss anything by not reading it?
TL;DR: FloridaManBad, takes liberties away, doesn't understand freedom, blah, blah, blah, did I mention FloridaManBad?
This piece is so misguided I don’t know where to start! Freedom and liberty are NOT the same thing. Government should get out of the way of some things and enforce equal rights under the law in other things. DeSantis is correct in principle here and WRONG about the details. It is possible for government authority to be properly wielded in defense of liberty while limiting the freedom of criminals to engage in crimes, for example. More importantly, it is possible for the Constitution to limit the imposition of the Democrat’s socialist agenda and social engineering experiments without allowing the Republican’s christian morality agenda to be imposed on us.
Yeah, like most politicians -- and a whole lot of people in general -- DeSantis seems to be all for "freedom," just as long as it's the proper kind of "freedom."
Wrong kinds of "freedom" that I see in this screed:
Moving into a country or state without doing so legally.
Putting a minor through gender transformation.
Teaching critical race theory [or creationism] in public schools.
Did I miss any?
“Moving into a country or state without doing so legally.”
Agreed. Illegal immigration can’t be allowed. But expanding guest worker and legal immigration quotas would be a good thing for the country and our economy.
“Putting a minor through gender transformation.”
Yes, banning that is anti-freedom on multiple levels. Medical decisions for children should he made by their parents and their doctors, not politicians.
“Teaching critical race theory [or creationism] in public schools”
Neother of those things is being done in K-12 schools. Creationism because it is factually deficient and CRT because it is a college-level theory.
The casual anti Italian bigotry is typical of the cosmo libertarian isn't it Eric.
No minors under 17 are currently getting bottom surgery at this moment.
This has been shown to be a lie so many times now.
It has not.
There have been a lot of failed attempts that have come up with zero contradiction of my claim.
You were given the Medicaid data just last week. You continue to lie.
Just stop, Mike. The rate of top surgery is .01%. There is very little chance that the rate of bottom surgery is zero.
Statistically? Yes, it is essentially zero. But as an absolute number? It is very, very unlikely that there are no bottom surgeries happening pre-puberty.
There is also no way to know WHY those surgeries are done. If there are 200-250 top surgeries per year (also for undetermined reasons), there are probably some bottom surgeries as well.
The proof of the weakness of the cultural conservative argument is that they keep talking about surgery. It is disingenuous, to say the least. It's a political narrative, not reality. But claiming no bottom surgeries are being performed, pre-puberty, is also a political narrative.
Stop saying it. It almost certainly isn't true.
chemjeff: word to the mother.
Nice work.
That would be the same as butt implants, right Mike?
Is that a thing?
It is a thing. For the big Kardashian butt look.
Yikes!
That's a quality point. If these conservatives had their way, I'd be thrown in jail for letting my 12 year old have a skin tag removed by a licensed dermatologist.
18, not 17. And you have to specific “in the United States.” It could very well be different in other countries.
Weird how you keep changing your filter. Now it isn't minors but under 17? Because you are a lying sea lion?
A moment before, a moment after. Your hairsplitting is getting really tiresome Mike.
"The crucial distinction has to do with the nationalities on their passports, or perhaps with their skin color or native language. It's at least a little ironic for DeSantis to draw lines based on such characteristics."
I don't recall Florida creating limitations on interstate immigration based on whether on whether someone was a citizen, what their race is, or if they English, shitbag. For fuck's sake, put away the crystal ball and actually speak to people outside your bubble.
That's a tall order there. If a government does not allow unrestricted immigration, there HAS to be a racist somewhere!
In the wood pile, probably.
Yeah, the CIA operative turned culture warrior who worked at Gitmo has done so much for liberty and is so much better than Biden...not like he's just another politician that wants to get reelected...not like the oligarchs are able to get away with more right violations when republicans are in power... No need to look into his background at all...DeSantis 2024! ????
He is literally better than Biden in every conceivable way.
Don't forget about the inconceivable ones.
But if you conceive, you're stuck with it.
He can climb sheer cliffs? Beat a Spaniard in a sword fight? Best a giant?
Inconceivable!
Biden isn't good, but DeSantis is a LOT worse.
When I want insight into someone like Ron DeSantis I always go to the guy who voted for Joe Biden.
novel idea: get an interview. ask him yourself. jornolist!
That's not how you do marxist enabling propaganda.
I’ve said it before, but perhaps it bears repeating. The reason conservatives are turning their backs on small government, and regime libertarianism, especially, is that the regime libertarians offer little in the way of an answer to this challenge. In an at least semi-fascist state, where the government, leading industry and the cultural institutions form a block opposed to any questioners or challengers, it’s not at all absurd to suggest that the distinctions between state power and the power of captive institutions are mostly immaterial. “It’s a private company” rings more than a little hollow when the “private company” is given grants of legal privilege, acts on the express wishes of state actors, and has revolving door personnel with the state and their friends and families.
A useful libertarianism would offer a meaningful response to this beyond sneers and claims of betrayal of principle. Because, absent such a response, it looks like regime libertarians are little more than apologists for the very fascism or semi-fascism that people find themselves faced with.
Just because you are unaware of or are ignoring the libertarian response to threats from the private sector doesn't mean there are none. The problem here is that the current state of affairs is so far away from any kind of libertarian system that pragmatic libertarians have to pick and choose our battles to even hope for limited success a little bit at a time to reverse the trend at all.
I'm aware that there are libertarian responses. This article didn't really offer any. And, obviously, it's more than just a threat from the private sector. It's a threat from a private sector fused with the state. Ignoring the distinction is, again, why conservatives are paying less and less attention to libertarians. The battles regime libertarians seem interested in picking and choosing seem as if they're specific to challenge threats or questions to the state-private complex.
"It’s a threat from a private sector fused with the state"
The private sector is less integrated into government than at any point in history. Industry used to literally have a seat at the table in forming government policy (often setting regulations for their own industry).
Does that still happen? Not really, that's why lobbying firms make so much money. Do private companies have the sort of influence, direct and indirect, that they had in the 20s or the 40s or the 60s/70s? Or even the early 'aughts, with Dick Cheney as a Halliburton insider? Not even close.
Claiming that the governent asking Twitter to do something and Twitter deciding whether or not to do it (often choosing not to) is worse than the robber barons or the military-industrual complex or the financial sector is pure hyperbole.
"The problem here is [reality exists]"
Bans on critical race theory and sex changes for children restrict freedom the same way banning cops from beating people up restricts freedom.
Well, I suppose they both restrict someone's freedom...to do harm to others.
That conservativism and libertarianism are not of the same cloth is somehow new?
Many libertarians abandoned the conservative tent fifty years ago, and the conservatives were happy to see them go. So either side needs to stop pouting that a conservative governor is not a libertarian or that libertarians shouldn't have something to criticize about said governor.
The beef is that Reason seems to have few complaints about progressive governors who are doing far more damage to rights.
Compare treatment of Jared Polis to Ron DeSantis here.
That’s funny. I’ve seen them criticize Gavin Newsom several times, just as one example.
How do you not see those same blog posts?
I have. They blame the CA legislature for most of it. They don't call him out for it.
Example?
A libertarianism that can't muster a response to conservative critiques beyond sneers and claims of betrayal isn't a libertarianism that deserves to win out over conservatism.
I'm always struck how libertarians seem so butthurt that conservatives aren't libertarian. So then they run for the progressives who are literally anti-libertarian. They're tossing out libertarian-friendly or libertarian-adjacent politicians in favor of someone who's laughing at them and planning their execution.
True.
Because paleo conservatives believe that liberty is a privilege only granted to those that are morally worthy, if you already fall into that category of one who is morally worthy (in their view), it is easy to see them as being libertarian-adjacent. Because they are not seeking to actively strip you of YOUR liberty.
I do not understand the term "paleo" conservative, and I struggle with "neo" as well.
What liberties of YOURS are in danger because of conservatives? What liberty is granted to "morally worthy" people, and what does "morally worthy" mean? Which liberties are granted to some but not all? Which group is the "winner" in your estimation?
Republicans abandoned the conservative tent 50 years ago with Nixon. Both Bushes were worse and Ford and Reagan weren't much better. Their also rans, Dole, McCain and Romney weren't under the tent either.
Goldwater really was our last best chance. I am serious.
I too, am a Goldwater fan.
Freedom’s just another word for giving Disney hell.
Or for doing what the people running Joe Biden tell you.
I guess. What does that have to do with Disney or DeSantis?
It is onevof the other major choices on the menu.
OK
I thought it was just another word for nothing left to lose. What changed?
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Nothing changed, really.
But there still remains a huge gap between politicians and poets.
(especially poets who were Rangers and Rhodes scholars)
+^
Bill Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar
A Disney CEO got too big for his britches, and DeSantis felt compelled to show him his place.
Freedom isn't all-inclusive. It never was, never will be.
Humans ruined that long ago. As such, some degree of compromise is in order. If California voters wants to legalize child porn, then let them. If Florida wants to exclude non-citizens let them.
What 'Freedom' Means to Ron DeSantis
So, much water-carrying newspeak, so few words. Hard to think of an article title that's more blatant about your intent to target uninformed and generally stupid voters. Whom do you imagine gets up in the morning and says, "I wonder what Ron DeSantis' thoughts on freedom are?" and decides "I know! I'll go to Reason Magazine and read Eric Boehm's interpretation of what Ron DeSantis' thoughts on "freedom" are!"
The only explanation is that you're trying to appeal to the most retarded of humans in a deliberate effort to deceive them.
The casual anti Italian bigotry is typical of the cosmo libertarian isn't it Eric.
"Freedom's just another word for...
nothing left to ban"
"DeSantis talks a lot about freedom, and even more about the supposed threats to it. For the governor, those seem to lurk everywhere, from drag shows to Disney and from undocumented immigrants to corporate "diversity, equity, and inclusion" efforts."
That's a pretty good list actually. Especially the last one.
Libertarians seem surprised that the culture is so against them when they've done nothing to really defend or stand up for their beliefs.
Nothing?
DIE is cultural marxism. end of story
Q: Are drag-shows a threat to freedom?
A: Of course not.
Q: Are there other reasons to worry about them?
A: Yes, i.e., keeping young children from being exposed to sexual deviancy.
Well, when they are done in schools without parental consent they are, which has happened in the UK and will be soon here. Kinda like Transition Closets, Boob binding, and Tolerance Clubs all are designed to circumvent the parents
1. Drag shows can be hilarious for adults and kids if they're kept G-rated, having fun with societal sex-roles like Dame Edna or Mrs. Doubtfire.
2. X-rated drag shows can be fine entertainment if you're of a particular bend, and an adult.
But what Reason, Mike and Chemjeff are simping for is children participating in X-rated adult entertainment. Whether it's drag story hour held by a guy in a hooker outfit and no underwear, or a strip show with dildos and kids sticking bills into some man's G-string.
They're pushing #2 and pretending it's #1, and it's absolutely fucking evil of them.
Also, you left off points 3, 4, 5, 6... where we medicate boys because they won't sit still in class, continue to relegate cis-girls to dancing even half naked nowhere within 500 ft. of schools or alcohol, put trans boys on clothing advertisements, insist trans girls have an unfettered right to dance naked in schools, libraries, bars, or pretty much anywhere else there's a surface solid enough to support their dancing, hand trophies to trans girls for deciding that competing against cis-males as a cis-male isn't fair, discriminate against people who are following the letter of the law on religious freedom and anti-discrimination for the mere appearance of having not toed any given line above to the fullest... in that context, conflating 1 and 2 is just one of the fronts on which they're being disingenuous and evil.
Remember, this is just a debate about who can use public restrooms.
Don’t take your children to drag shows. Problem solved.
Don't fuck your own kids. Problem solved.
Don't give your own kids cigarettes. Problem solved.
Don't give your own kids alcohol. Problem solved.
Don't cut your own daughter's tits off. Problem solved.
Don't work your own kids in coal mines. Problem solved.
Work your kids in lithium mines, because that's green.
Has Eric somehow missed Newsom's YT ads decrying 'authoritarian' R governors? Like those who did not shut down major portions of the economy by fiat?
Or is that 'too local' since he's pitching a national audience? Unlike DeSantis: "...and in speeches like the one he gave on April 1 to a crowd of local elected officials and conservative activists in central Pennsylvania,..."
Boehm, stuff your hypocrisy up your ass and take a deep breath. Make the world a better place.
What "freedom" means to, Reason: 'What the hell ever. Just don't touch my wallet.'
DeSantis doesn't check many libertarian boxes for me. Chris Sununu does. I'd like to hear what others think.
Uhhhh... he sounds about as libertarian as dreamy Jared Polis.
Sununu proposed the creation of the New Hampshire Department of Energy... One focus of the Department will be the development of offshore wind along New Hampshire's shoreline in the Gulf of Maine, a longstanding priority of Sununu's.[59]
...in response to reports that the Supreme Court may overturn Roe v. Wade, he said, "I'm a pro-choice governor" and that he supports abortion rights in New Hampshire.[65]
In 2018, Sununu said he would refuse to send the New Hampshire National Guard to the US-Mexico border to enforce Trump's "zero-tolerance" policy in regard to undocumented immigrants.[70]
[71] In 2018, Sununu signed into law two bills intended to protect LGBT rights, one prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity in housing, employment, and public accommodations[72] and one banning conversion therapy from being used on minors.
In 2022, Sununu vetoed a "parental bill of rights" law which would have forced schools to out trans children to their parents.[77]
Sununu opposes legalizing recreational marijuana.[78]
In 2020, Sununu joined Democrats in supporting permanent funding for conservation efforts in the U.S. and particularly in New Hampshire.
In December 2021, Sununu asked President Joe Biden and FEMA for emergency response teams to deal with a surge in COVID-19 cases in New Hampshire.[85]
If you really want a Democrat or Democrat adjacent, Robert Kennedy Jr. seems a slightly better choice. He's not a swamp creature.
Sununu is very much an establishment republican. He wants to play the game and not rock the boat. For NH he is certainly better than what the Democrats would offer, but he is pretty hostile to the growing freedom caucus in the NH GOP and was far too open to covid public health authoritarianism (though I will grant that he tempered a lot of what Democrats wanted to happen, which was good).
"...revoke medical licenses from doctors who perform gender-affirming surgeries on minors." "ON MINORS" is the point. Minors can not consent to contracts. Then there's the Hippocratic Oath thing - first, do no harm, ESPECIALLY on minors - that should always take priority. If adults want to permanetly disfigure themselves, go for it. Otherwise, as Pink Floyd says, "Leave them kids alone!"
The only gender-affirming surgeries that are performed on minors in the US are breast surgeries. More breast surgeries are done on minors for cosmetic reasons than for gender reasons.
So, by all means, ban such surgeries for minors, but be consistent about it and ban cosmetic breast surgeries for minors.
"Minors can not consent to contracts."
But their parents can - and besides, this is a *libertarian* publication, hon. "Age of consent" laws are arbitrary, random, anti-freedom, and should be abolished. Why should the government (and the bureaucrat hangers-on) get to decide when you can vote, drive, buy alcohol, fight in war, run for office or have necessary surgery?
Or have sex with adults?
On the off-chance you're asking a serious question (and not just another right-wing troll obsessed that everyone else is having sex and they're not), let me give you a concrete example. When I was 16, I met someone who was 28. We dated and then had a relationship, for six years. In the eyes of the government, I was completely incapable of consenting (which was, of course, wrong) up to age 17 years, 364 days - but then magically, the very next day, VOILA - I was an "adult" and capable of consent. This is naturally ridiculous and rivals only the "bible" and "Harry Potter' novels for magical thinking. Having an 18th birthday made me inherently no more or less capable of consent than the day before.
I just wanted clarity that you were actually saying that fucking kids is OK. Don't want to falsely accuse anyone of that. That you for your candor.
And... AND there are some jarring comments made by a Republican recently, and it's the perfect opportunity for Reason to bash Republicans on a legitimate issue. Yet as far as I can tell, it's been radio silence on this issue.
Go on? Who? What did they say?
This is a very weird "Reason" article. It starts out pretty even-keeled then takes a turn. The author is trying to question, or lampoon DeSantis' definition of Freedom using examples of that don't relate to Freedom. Example, opposing the mutilation of children is not what I would consider Freedom restricting. Florida has school choice, "as long as you go to a school with DeSantis' approved curriculum." All 50 states lay out the curriculum that school districts are to adhere to. What does Eric not get. Strange article.
Thanks for making it so easy who to place on Mute.
So long as the state approves the curriculum, it's OK not to teach vast swathes of subject matter, leaving Florida students at a disadvantage emotionally from being able to function in society? It's OK not to teach about the struggles of minorities, if the state says not to? As for your hilarious terminology "mutilation of children", gender reassignment surgery only happens when all involved consent and the patient has gone through a gamut of medical and psychological testing.
Teaching history w/o the marxist pov would be a good start. And there are no trans children or people. Evolution affirms your gender. You can pretend to be the opposite sex. (called transvestitism) but transgender is not possible. It is a mental illness. Anyone pushing sexual mutilation of kids either wants to virtue signal or is a pedo/groomer.
"...So long as the state approves the curriculum, it’s OK not to teach vast swathes of subject matter, leaving Florida students at a disadvantage emotionally from being able to function in society?..."
Bullshit claim.
"...It’s OK not to teach about the struggles of minorities, if the state says not to?...
Bullshit claim.
"As for your hilarious terminology “mutilation of children”, gender reassignment surgery only happens when all involved consent and the patient has gone through a gamut of medical and psychological testing..."
Is child labor OK with you under those rules?
So, Eric Boehm presents four threats by DeSantis against "freedom". They are:
1) A ban on elective sterilization surgery for persons too young to legally consent to the procedure.
2) Criminal charges for persons harboring or employing illegal immigrants.
3) A ban on homicide after the sixth week of gestation.
4) A ban on government funds being used to promote racism to children.
If the worst you can come up with against a mainstream politician who is a plausible contender for the Presidency is exactly one unambiguous violation of the NAP (that's #2, for morons playing along at home), you've found the obvious libertarian choice for President.
Yet the gay gov of Colorado is the pinnacle of what a libertarian should be...right Nick?
Sure, DRM. That isn't extremist rhetoric at all.
DeSantis would be very wise to stay away from the free-market.
Commie-Education direction isn't all that bad and frankly he'd by wise to chop federal dictation of it. But when he starts banning crap in free-markets he's gone too far.
https://twitter.com/9mm_smg/status/1645477192082522125?t=hQKDa5ur94VgTZbqfnjFcQ&s=19
This tweet will be a mess in the comments as it has been on any social media platform I've posted it. I've long said the vaccine was a test of the will of the American populace with an upside of profit for the pharmaceutical industry.
When the vax was first released many got it out of fear, I understand as media went all out in their propaganda. Many on the right actually wanted it. I don't so much blame these people I feel they were put in a position to weigh their options. I think it was the wrong choice, but they weren't making the choice for me so it's of no consequence.
Family decided to pressure the pureblood hold outs. A lot of families ostracized family members for refusing to get it. This was the first time in their test, man caved, I wasn't one of them. In return for my defiance, I had lost much of my family and friends with formally very close cousins refusing to even be in the same room as me. This was the cost of autonomy.
Many stood their ground, but when the criminal government said you'd now need it to earn a living, they folded. This was their final test and as a freedom loving rebellious nation, we failed.
The government now knew the populace would cave under pressure. I argued if you'd get a shot you were tremendously against because you'd have to find a new job the government could make you turn in your guns under the same circumstances. Their defense was "I wouldn't turn in my guns for anything", but they caved to being scared of losing their jobs. I came back at them saying if they didn't turn in their guns they would be in prison and not only not have a job, but be away from their families in prison. They got very mad and blocked me by the 100s.
The government tests us, they see where they can push us before we say no. This test showed them the line in the sand was further away than they once thought, we failed miserably.
The people who have asked for forgiveness now that covid is over? They will not get it. I've never regretted not taking the shot but many of them have. I'm saddened the government put me in a position where I lost people I care about but I would do it all over.
If more people held out despite these circumstances it never would have gone this far. We ended up where we are because people caved and did something their heart was against under pressure. I just pray those people have learned their lesson, because I do believe the government will push harder and harder in coming months and years.
It's never too late to be the men your fathers were, your ancestors and founders.
In 2023 US, we should happily put up with DeSantis '"contradictions."
It's really not that difficult to figure out Little Mussolini's agenda: white and Christian good, darker not so good...
F you with your anti-Italian bigotry. Italian Americans are always tagged that way if they push back on the Bolsheviks.
It means DeSantis is willing to fight dirty to stop even dirtier Democrats. You can’t beat lies, cheating and corruption by playing fair when the media is stacked against you. I give him credit for that, most ass hat Republicans are to afraid to fight the fight that needs to be fought to save this country from a leftist Dictatorship.
Damn straight
What is this calculus by which it has been determined that Democrats are dirtier than Republicans? Like, is there a weighted spreadsheet somewhere?
Grievance, much? Everything is stacked against you, huh? DeSantis needs to be an authoritarian because your worldview is losing in the marketplace of ideas and you don"t like that?
Gee, what a surprise that cultural conservatives are pro-government-force.
Bad ideas losing to better ideas doesn't justify repressing the better ideas.
This type of article is why Reason has become a cosmo pos. Newsome is a fing bolshevik, Hochul, even the gay guy in Colorado is anti liberty and Reason says nothing.
For Nick, Matt and the rest..open borders, abortion up to birth, and sexually mutilating kids is not libertarianism. This obsession with these three issues and not say the Fed, foreign wars, the DIE attack on liberty, and the Federal, State, and Media attack on the Bill of Rights somehow isn't that big a deal to the Reason folks.
And the icing on the cake is of course the reference to DeSantis's Italian heritage. Lefties always love to attack Italian Americans as "quasi fascist". To that a big F u to Eric.
Strong borders from the bolshies, zero tolerance to the cultural Marxists, and no to neocons/neolibs is what libertarianism is about.
Hey any Italian Americans employed at Reason? Why is that, Nick?
Nick is half Italian.
VERY well-said. I made a similar comment. 🙂
Very Well-said!!
I might've written something similar decades ago. As a libertarian, I'm not unsympathetic to the writer's sentiment. It just suffers from the slight defect of being utterly, perhaps irredeemably, clueless. It's like an analysis of our current society that Ayn Rand might've written if she suddenly found herself thrust forward into modern times (before she got the full picture of what's truly happening).
The cluelessness comes from failing to understand something very important: the Woke Revolution is authoritarian to the core, and it's quite possible, even likely, for the road to authoritarianism to be paved - and enabled by - gender equality, sexualization of children, critical race theory, "sustainability," ESG, cancel culture, and transgender rights. In other words, cultural norms are not incidental parts of society; rather, they are part and parcel of a just, free society OR a tyrannical social structure. I realize it would take some time to argue you out of your shallow, one-dimensional worldview. The above is merely intended as a spur for seriously considering the connection between cultural ideas and civilization. As Camile Paglia observed, androgyny has occurred at many points in the past and is associated, without exception, with the demise of a civilization.
"...The cluelessness comes from failing to understand something very important: the Woke Revolution is authoritarian to the core, and it’s quite possible, even likely, for the road to authoritarianism to be paved – and enabled by – gender equality, sexualization of children, critical race theory, “sustainability,” ESG, cancel culture, and transgender rights..."
Not sure since the watermelons have a 30 year head start.
For the record I'm totally cool with parents teaching their kids CRT racism either in the privacy of their own homes or at a private school that features racist curriculum. I do have a problem with taxpayers funding racist curriculum. Can I still call myself a libertarian Eric?
For the record, I'm totally cool with tranny stripper drag shows on campus or within 500 ft. of an elementary school as long as women are allowed to perform strip shows equally, gender-designated sports teams mean something other than just "winners" and "people it's OK to discriminate against, today", drunken co-eds regretting hook ups with other drunken co-eds is no fault, and nobody can be called out for 30-yr.-old, contemporaneously-alleged sexual assaults.
Pretty sure that makes me both more conservative *and* more libertarian than Boehm, Soave, and Brown combined.
I appreciate Reason. For a while I thought my views fell into the libertarian camp. Reading articles like these have helped me understand that is not the case. I do not live in their fantasy land. The idea that government should get out of the way and let people be people is noble and wonderful. I dream of small, limited government, too. But the reality is government is bloated and powerful. A “sit back” approach is impossible in our current situation as the machine is too big with too many fanatic department dictators. If you want a natural yard and the ground is freshly tilled, you can give it light guidance and let it grow. But if the yard is choked with noxious vines, sitting back will do nothing but ensure the vines dominance. You must use action and power to dislodge the corruption before stepping back. Finally, Reason truly is hung up on the wickedness of forbidding CRT instruction in the classroom. How is it a “libertarian” publication thinks it is an expression of liberty for elementary instruction to include Marxist race-based class propaganda? Standards in education are hardly new, and removing a poor standard, particularly one so anti-American, is a benefit. But if 8th grade teachers were educating adolescent students on the glory of suicide and Ron abolished that curriculum, Reason would call him a totalitarian.
It's laughable hearing Ron DeSantis praising the virtues of freedom with his record of denying it to others. In DeSantis-speak, there's no perceived irony in his bleating about "freedom" while signing one of the nation's strongest voter suppression laws, or reducing 51% of our populace to breeding stock while lacking bodily autonomy.
Me? I'm fortunately white, male, and fairly well off, so I can enjoy this "freedom" about which DeSantis raves. But I recognize it for what it is... and for those not blessed with my gender and color, freedom it certainly ain't.
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I too am thankful for the laws repealed through the Libertarian platform and spoiler votes of 1972-2016.
A vote for any Christianofascist girl-bullier says: "BRING 'DIED IN CHILDBIRTH' BACK TO THE OBITUARY PAGES"
It was perhaps less idiotic when Teedy Rosenfeld was scolding women to not listen to Pankhurst and instead be willing conscripts in Anthony Comstock's War on Race Suicide. But there's this 19th Amendment even Long Dong will have a hard time gutting the way his predecessors gutted the 13th and 14th Amendments. ... (http://bit.ly/41l2c8t)
In the ideal libertarian world, I suppose parents would have the full range of options, from strict reading, writing and arithmetic, to vocational schools specializing in how to be gay prostitutes. Somewhere in there everybody would find something they liked, and if some of the kids literally got screwed, so be it. It would at least be a very small percentage of them, since real world parents hardly ever want that for their children.
In the ideal Democratic world, parents would have the full range of options, from exactly what the Democrats think the schools should teach, to... exactly what the Democrats think the schools should teach. They're not big on school choice, and don't really care what parents want.
In DeSantis' world, parents would have a huge range of options, but the gay prostitute vocational schools and Red Guard training camps would have to be fully paid for by the parents, no vouchers for them.
And I guess Reason thinks the Democratic no choice world is better than DeSantis' version of school choice, because that handful of parents who would opt for the gay prostitution vo-tech school would be left out in the cold.
DeSantis isn't outlawing gay prostitute vocational school or red guard training camps. Those didn't exist in Florida to be outlawed in the first place. He is making it illegal to teach kids about the history of race in America and about gender. He is making it illegal to teach things that educated people are now expected to now about regardless of their profession.
Funny how Reason never runs articles like "What Does Freedom Mean to Joe Biden?"
"FREE-dum? That is a worship word. You will not speak it!"
As far as I am concerned, "gender affirming" surgery is what they used to call malpractice. Cutting off or excising perfectly healthy body parts or organs is malpractice, no matter what lunatic says otherwise. And I do not use the term "lunatic" lightly. Believing you're something you are not a sign of severe mental disturbance, and in any sane society, such people would be locked up, never to disturb the peace of others again.
If I went around saying I was Kaiser Bill, people would just laugh at me. But if I started howling for surgery to wither my arm like the real Kaiser Wilhelm, they'd put me away and leave me away. Transgenders are insane. "Trans women" are women the way Monopoly money is money. After this current craze dies down, I expect there will be a bunch of resounding lawsuits, mostly against unscrupulous "therapists" who talked vulnerable, suggestible people into "transitioning." Just like there was after the "recovered memories" fad died...anybody else remember that?
I usually agree with the libertarian take on issues in Reason. But what they portray as big government interference here by DeSantis is wrong on nearly every count.
First of all, protecting the lives of the unborn or the health of minors is a legit responsibility of government, not an encroachment on personal liberty.
And rolling back leftist indoctrination in schools is fits squarely within his state’s maintenance of educational standards too.
Can Reason’s writers honestly say that a state should, on principles of liberty, bestow school accreditation to say, a KKK charter school? Or to the Church of Scientology? How about Hezbollah? Satanists? Of course not. So how does Reason magazine conclude that radical Marxist race and gender fanatics should run schools with no input by state government?
All fifty states impose baseline standards for school accreditation and curriculum at BOTH public and private schools - And DeSantis’s campaign to prohibit race and gender fanaticism in schools fits squarely within that framework.
Incidentally, key tenets of CRT clearly violate our federal Civil Rights Acts - which is even pointed out in DeSantis’s so called “Stop Woke” education law. So now enforcing the Civil Rights Acts is an attack on liberty?
Further, any reading of Florida’s new educational standards under DeSantis (I read them) reveals an total absence of right leaning ideology or content. It’s a purely boilerplate, back-to-basics mission for state schools. The fact is that DeSantis is level setting while removing radical ideology that had no place in schools in the first place.
Someone needs to tutor the staff at Reason as to the appropriate role played by state government - because the suggestion that DeSantis is imposing a heavy handed government attack on liberty is self evidently false.
"That's not merely redefining freedom to mean something other than the absence of restrictions. It's an affirmative argument for those restrictions, wrapped in a promise that the right kinds of people—those who agree with DeSantis about what should be taught in schools—will continue to enjoy freedom even while it is denied to others."
so DeSantis is just another progressive, dressing up his nanny-statism in conservative cloth rather than liberal or leftist garment. you have all the freedom in the world to do what you want, as long as the mandarins of our regime approve it.
I am not clicking that link.