Is Telling Someone To 'Die' on Facebook Protected by the First Amendment?
A Colorado man was convicted under an anti-stalking law for sending hostile messages online.

"If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment," the U.S. Supreme Court said in the 1989 case Texas v. Johnson, "it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable." In practice, that principle means all sorts of despicable utterances, including "hate speech," are constitutionally protected.
But the Court also has said that the First Amendment has its limits. One of them involves "true threats" of violence. In the 2003 case Virginia v. Black, the justices defined that category as "those statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals." The First Amendment, the Court held, "permits" the government "to ban a 'true threat.'"
Deciding what counts as a "true threat" is no easy task, however. In April, the justices heard oral arguments in Counterman v. Colorado, which asks "whether, to establish that a statement is a 'true threat' unprotected by the First Amendment, the government must show that the speaker subjectively knew or intended the threatening nature of the statement, or whether it is enough to show that an objective 'reasonable person' would regard the statement as a threat of violence."
Billy Raymond Counterman was convicted under a Colorado anti-stalking law after sending a musician numerous Facebook messages from various accounts. "Fuck off permanently," one message said. "You're not being good for human relations," said another. "Die. Don't Need You."
The state law under which Counterman was convicted makes it a crime to repeatedly make "any form of communication with another person….that would cause a reasonable person to suffer serious emotional distress and does cause that person….to suffer serious emotional distress." Whether or not Counterman intended to convey a threat was immaterial under that law.
The implications of Counterman v. Colorado extend beyond one man's ugly Facebook messages. "The Nation is undergoing a communications revolution, driven by unprecedented new forms of online expression—and unprecedented new attempts by government to monitor and restrict such expression," the Cato Institute observed in an amicus brief. "This case is the right vehicle to set clear, badly needed boundaries for government authority to limit online expression through the harsh cudgel of criminal prosecution."
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Speaking of things allegedly protected by the 1st Amendment:
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/maine-mom-sues-school-district-that-secretly-gave-13-year-old-daughter-a-chest-binder/
"A mom in Maine has filed a federal lawsuit against local school officials after she says they started referring to her 13-year-old daughter as a boy without her knowledge and provided the eighth-grader with chest binders so she would look more like a boy."
"Goldwater Institute lawyers argue that the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution protects the fundamental right of parents to control the care, education, and upbringing of their children. By keeping Lavigne in the dark about her daughter’s struggles with her gender identity, and by taking steps publicly to help her daughter socially transition, school officials violated Lavigne’s right to direct her daughter’s upbringing and to make critical health care and education decisions for the girl."
"...in a statement to parents in February, Great Salt Bay Community School Principal Kim Schaff defended school staff, saying they are required to follow state and federal civil rights laws regarding discrimination and privacy.
“A misunderstanding of these laws pertaining to gender identity and privileged communication between school social workers and minor clients has resulted in the school and staff members becoming targets for hate speech and on-going threats,” she wrote in the letter."
"The lawsuit filed this week calls for a declaratory judgement that Great Salt Bay Community School’s policy and practice about withholding information from parents about their child’s psychosexual development, including gender identity, violates parents’ Fourteenth Amendment due-process rights. It also calls for an injunction preventing school officials from calling Lavigne’s daughter by a different name or pronouns without Lavigne’s consent.
“I deserve to know what’s happening to my child,” Lavigne said in a prepared statement. “The secrecy needs to stop.”"
Conversion therapy for gay kids. "You're not a lesbian, you're a boy!"
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The Ls and the Gs need to figure this out
You joke, but that does seem to be the effect. Lesbians are being told to accept the feminine penis or be labeled as bigoted terfs.
Maybe lesbians should grow a pair.
Did not know there were pro grooming state and federal laws.
Somebody has an agenda, and not wasting any time crying victim over it.
The lawsuit filed this week calls for a declaratory judgement that Great Salt Bay Community School’s policy and practice about withholding information from parents about their child’s
psychosexualdevelopment, including gender identity,violates parents’ Fourteenth Amendment due-process rights.Or…The lawsuit filed this week calls for a declaratory judgement that Great Salt Bay Community School’s policy and practice about withholding information from parents about their child’s psychosexual
developmentdestruction, including gender identity,violates parents’ Fourteenth Amendment due-process rightsCoulda done without the bullshit of ceding the premises on their terms. Almost makes it sound like Mom’s upset the school bought her the chest binder first.
It’s not “psychosexual development” and the idea is some of the most insidiously toxic sexist bullshit imaginable. Chest binders aren’t sexual or sex-specific. They don’t develop anything, they specifically halt natural development. Pronouns aren’t reproductive organs, physically or mentally, and the idea that you can’t develop normally psychologically or physically without a specific or sex-specific set of pronouns is an insult to every intelligent person, man, woman, English-speaker, or other.
If the School were secretly binding the girl’s feet to make her a more attractive concubine without the parents’ knowledge, or simply binding her wrists to make her more subservient without the parents’ knowledge, it would be every bit as reprehensible. These people aren’t just having trouble navigating an tumultuous frontier with kids. They’re specifically foregoing their employment obligations in order to use the terrain to exploit children. They get zero breaks "because psychosexual development is tough” it's their own *their* bullshit narrative. Keeping kids safe and teaching them to read isn’t that tough. These people, despite being paid by the taxpayers to do this, don’t want to do it. They want to wallow around with your kids through their tumultuous psychosexual development.
"or simply binding her wrists to make her more subservient without the parents’ knowledge, it would be every bit as reprehensible"
I'm not so sure. Ever been to Asia and talked to people there? You're liable to find people who were left handed and at school and at home had their left hands tied to their desks and forced to become right handed. Not the most pleasant experience at the time, but it leads to ambidextrous capability and leaves no emotional scarring aside from some unpleasant memories and a skepticism of arbitrary authority, ie good things.
In your words, 'they specifically halt natural development.' Nothing new about this, it's been done since parents and schools were invented. The reason why this upsets you is because it's about icky sexuality.
I'm gonna take a guess that you don't have children.
Point is that 'natural development' is a red herring. Parents do their best to guide the development of their children. Leaving it nature taking its course is not in the cards.
Parents also protect their kids by killing predators.
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Mtrueman confesses to bondage fantasies with children.
No, parents intervening to oppose nature's way is a lot more normal than you seem to believe.
Keep digging, perv.
You've never seen a kid with metal braces on their teeth? I promise you they didn't get there naturally. They were put there at the parent's behest. Never been to Asia? They take particular care to make sure their children don't use their left hands, especially for writing. One acquaintance wrote with his right hand, but did everything else lefty.
Fixing a child's crooked teeth is morally the same as cutting off her tits. Gotcha.
Sometimes surgery is a lot more drastic than tit removal. Though I understand that unlike other body parts, tits are sexual and make commenters like yourself especially squeamish. The point is that parents intervene in their children's development as a matter of routine. Even in sexual development. Training bras. What is that but an attempt to guide the development of these glands you care so deeply for?
What if a parent wanted cut a child's arm off? Would you be OK with that? Is there any point at which you believe morality enters the decision?
"What if a parent wanted cut a child’s arm off? "
Sometimes amputation of limbs occurs. It's a sad fact, but I don't feel qualified to interfere. I'm not a physician. We don't make the same fuss with amputated limbs because the lack of the sexual dimension tits have. My only advice is get a second opinion before removing something that isn't growing back.
"Is there any point at which you believe morality enters the decision?"
Yes, any medical procedures should be morally justified, in the best interests of the patient. Not always an easy decision, but we shouldn't let our own squeamishness or sexual hangups give over to the sort of self righteous hectoring evident in the comments here. Your urge to score points in the culture war shouldn't trump a patient's desire for medical treatment.
With child sexuality, I understand the parental impulse to do whatever they can to preserve their child's innocence. I fear that it often goes too far and spills into overprotectiveness, and denies a child's individuality.
Typical of your unresponsive blather.
"Typical of your unresponsive blather."
It is extremely responsive blather. I'm offering sound advice to the patient - get a second opinion before doing something irrevocable - and sound advice to you - mind your own business, keep your hangups to yourself and let others get on with their life. All offered in good faith free of charge.
She didn't build that (kid)!
Back in college in the early 90s, I read about the old Chinese practice of female foot-binding and of course feminists were hating on that (and rightly so). So here we are three decades later and feminists have nothing to say about the modern day binding girls’ breasts. What the hell happened?
That is a damned good question.
By the way, I must equate your handle "Indigo Montoya" as a death threat. Just saying.
You've got six fingers?
You could just take his word as a Spaniard.
>>Indigo Montoya
dude that's Inigo's peace-loving hippie brother who didn't even like their dad
What about TERFs?
You now what they say about turnabout...
Feminists histrionically screeching over foot binding but not uttering a peep about breast binding isn't "turnabout", Hankie, you senile worthless piece of shit. Just stick to shitting up threads with your random drive-by copypasta that's unrelated to the topic. Somehow you actually fuck it up even worse when you try and fail to reply topically.
"Feminists histrionically screeching over foot binding but not uttering a peep about breast binding isn’t “turnabout”, Hankie, you senile worthless piece of shit."
It wasn't feminists, but Maoists who put an end to foot binding. Foot binding essentially puts an end to your life as a contributor to the economy.
Neither the Fourteenth Amendment, nor any other part of the U.S. Constitution, says a single word about parents, children, or any other family relationship. I expect that is intentional.
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Between you and Sevo, you're the only one who has lost custody of your child because your "cunt" ex-wife credibly accused you of abuse to the satisfaction of a judge, sarcasmic.
Does this also cover the Reason comment section? Asking for a certian poster N....
What about wood chippers, and telling pedos to off themselves? Also same for sea lions
can anyone confirm Ken Schultz has not killed himself?
This headline clearly must have been written in an obvious attempt to subvert Betteridge's law. Because of course the answer to that question is yes.
“Whether or not Counterman intended to convey a threat was immaterial under that law.”
So Mens Rea is no longer a thing?
Nope. See felony murder.
Wait, Facebook murdered someone?
Not under the wording of that particular law.
Which makes the law morally and ethically deplorable and should (but unfortunately, doesn't under current precedents) make it unconstitutional.
I will say that I'm struggling to find a more in-depth breakdown of the facts from looking up this case. There does exist a potential behavior that would qualify as harassment, depending on how much he disturbed her ability to live peacefully. If he's just constantly spamming her Facebook inbox, all she has to do is not look at those messages (and Facebook has an issue about moderating his accounts if he keeps making new ones). But if he's otherwise being a nuisance, spamming her everywhere she exists on the internet, we might have some different questions.
"any form of communication with another person….that would cause a reasonable person to suffer serious emotional distress and does cause that person….to suffer serious emotional distress."
Emphases added. One predicts the "reasonable" business, apparently intended to filter out those who suffer emotional distress from almost anything, will be eliminated in the name of Equity.
Yup. And just like progressives moved the goal posts for hunger to food security, we are already on our way to legal restrictions of acts that threaten emotional security for the most needy. Even imagining that a mean person might say something distressing is now grounds for censorship.
Yup - it's the 2020s version of the heckler's veto.
Maybe said snowflake can find a website that censors appropriately for said persons desired level? Can't handle the level of free speech on Facebook then its time to get off of Facebook and pick a different social media site. What's great about a free-market system is the psycho social media sites will eventually byte the dust because no-one will put up with their crap.
So cut off the paid censorship from government and let the winners and losers get chosen by users who don't pack Gov-Guns with them.
"If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment," the U.S. Supreme Court said in the 1989 case Texas v. Johnson, "it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable." In practice, that principle means all sorts of despicable utterances, including "hate speech," are constitutionally protected.
vs.
The state law under which Counterman was convicted makes it a crime to repeatedly make "any form of communication with another person….that would cause a reasonable person to suffer serious emotional distress and does cause that person….to suffer serious emotional distress." Whether or not Counterman intended to convey a threat was immaterial under that law.
Now which one holds precedence?
The first?
The second sounds like you can't tell a girl you want to break up with her.
At one time that was a crime if you had actually proposed to her.
These laws were intended to bypass constitutional protections in the first place. Let's say person 1 posted something antisemitic and person 2 responded with f**k off and die. Let's say it happened repeatedly. Person 1 is protected by the First Amendment but person 2 is not?! The exception is intended for direct threats of harm to a person or persons, not a generic desire for them to die prematurely for being nasty! America has truly become the land of the bizarre.
That it has.
If only there were reasonable people somewhere whom we could ask if being told to "f**k off and die" would cause a reasonable nazi to feel "serious emotional distress" ...
>>despicable utterances, including "hate speech,"
quotations evidence of inextistence
The law is unreasonable vague, I'd say. Or can I get annoying socialists and progressives sent to jail for causing me emotional distress with their idiocy?
at the very least Billie Eilish
I'm fortunate to have no idea what that sounds like.
more accurately it's not objective. there is no objective criteria defining the possible violations. very bad law, but leftists hate objectivity. just look at the moderation & content policy on any social media platform -- reddit is a good example. their policy is very vague and lacks any objectivity. but leftists love this because it means they can make up the law and change it at any time for any reason.
Yes.
Translators of course disagree, but based on Bandersnatch lore, ordering ptaavs to self immolate was no more a violation of prtuuvi than verbal orders from the Panarch of Pao that some segment of the population subaqueate for the greater good. Development of amplifier helmets for telepathic commands in the heat of the Tnupticpun revolt--which HAD to be genocidal by definition--was evidently followed in short order by Suicide Night, hence the extinction of all chordates in the Galaxy. Small wonder, then, that no legal record on the topic can be found. Juveniles, both Thrint and of enslaved races, did make play with the "Die!" command in games, with no deliberate casualties before the big event. The Uranium Savages, a primitive Austin band, sang "Kill yourself" to very live audiences at Soap Creek Saloon, and only got in legal trouble after criticizing the Houston police habit of enforcing similar orders with live ammo.
Although there WAS an incident at the Armadillo World Head Quarters which led to mass hallucinations by the Thralls.
Puhleeze - they haven't seen the reich-wing trolls on here who threaten violence every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year.
Reason needs verified accounts so people can be held accountable for their hate-filled violent threats.
Fuck off permanently. Die. Don't Need You.
move to colorado
It would also probably cut down on the amount of dark web links to hardcore child pornography that you'd be able to post and keep coming back without going to prison where you belong, shreek. I hope the DA of Dog Dick Georgia has fun trying to get a conviction out of a jury when the father of one of the 8 year old little boys you like to fuck finds out where you live and releases the air from that cavity in your skull where a brain should have been.
Speaking of prison, claiming that what you clicked on were "dark web links" doesn't really absolve you of culpability for following those links and viewing (i.e., downloading to your own computer, even if only briefly) what you now claim was highly illegal content.
(Unless you're a police officer, which seems rather unlikely.)
Your God King Trump is going down lol no matter how many insults y'all sling.
Why! I’m not worried. Sarc threatened me a few months ago, and the completely pussied out. None of you leftists cunts have the guts to throw down.
Oh, and I DO advocate ypfor your suicide.
They haven't seen the EXTREME LEFT trolls, such as yourself, that are guilty of what you accuse.
the colorado law is retarded. outlawing "serious emotional distress" is ridiculous. this country has turned into a country populated by pussies. life does not guarantee you the lack of "serious emotional distress" -- shit happens and people say things you don't like. grow up. scotus needs to overturn this embarrassment of a law.
the colorado law is retarded.
It's mostly run by the retards on the Front Range. Elect retards and you get retarded laws.
Speaking of Colorado……
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11948149/Transgender-Colorado-woman-19-arrested-plot-shoot-THREE-schools-churches.html
“A transgender teen is in custody after authorities say they recovered a manifesto detailing her plan to attack three schools and churches in Colorado just four days after Audrey Hale murdered six people at the Covenant School in Nashville.
William Whitworth, 19, who goes by the name Lilly and is referred to with female pronouns in arrest documents, was arrested on March 31. She was a student in the school district that she planned to attack between 2014 and 2016, authorities say.
In a manifesto that was recovered in her home, Whitworth called Columbine killers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold ‘losers,’ said that Sandy Hook shooter Adam Lanza was ‘smart’ and that ex-President Donald Trump was a ‘con man.’ She was also in possession of The Communist Manifesto.
The suspect is charged with two counts of criminal attempt to commit murder in the first degree, criminal mischief, menacing and interference with staff, faculty or students of educational institutions.”
Another psycho democrat activist tranny ready to murder little kids. Pollis will probably give it an award for being stunning and brave, after preemptively pardoning it.
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How could something like this happen in a state with the most libertarian governor of all time?!?!
I’m sure ENB, and little Emma, are both wet to the knees for Governor McDreamy.
Believe it or not because a Governor is of a certain party not all state residents will be of the same party, there will be opposition party members, minority party members and even some of those elusive independents left in the state.
At least for now, we haven't started executing non-controlling party citizens… yet. And libertarians would certainly be against that, while most Democrats would support the executions.
MAGAs think that governors/presidents are Kings and Emperors handing out edicts, look how they worship Trump and think he's rightful King of the USA, they've lost all capability to be rational.
Trump de o started far more adherence ot the constitution than either Obama or Biden. So fuck off with your TDS lies.
Germany had a politician good at pushing the buttons of radiovangelist superstition to Make Germany Great Again. That plus fanatical prohibitionism--pushed by mostly-communist China and our own Gee-Oh-Pee--uplifted that politician to control all of Europe and large chunks of Africa... for a while.
Only if you precede "die" by "eat shit and"
Regardless of court rulings to the contrary, the 1st amendment DOES NOT permit the government to ban ANY speech. Prohibiting the government from banning, even direct threats, does not mean the speaker can't be held liable for the reasonably foreseeable consequences of their speech.
There is also a QUALITATIVE difference between banning any given speech, and banning harassment, which is what the law in question appears to ban.
Sorry bro threats are not protected speech and that is back up by 100s of years of law and precedence. Try it and see how quickly you land in jail.
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Comstock laws in the North and Ku-Klux prosecutions in the South wiped out support for Grant's Republican party. So the DOJ got a proslavery circuit judge to make the 13th and 14th Amendments completely meaningless and la Suprema let that stand. Republicans kept the high tariff they won in the Civil War and let death-threat Southern Dems restore the slavery they'd surrendered. Today's 13th Amendment enslaves conscripts and the 14th lets Texas rednecks hunt pregnant women to kidnap into involuntary servitude. 1A now lets T-rump threaten nuclear attack if his angry mob gets outvoted.
[lens into the microphone] Yes.
Of all the evil propagated by the Left, the creation and introduction of the concept of "Hate Speech" as a legal term and legally punishable act is the most evil.
Because once you breech the protection of speech, it is easy to redefine what speech is "criminal" and/or subject to "civil penalty."
Which is why the Left did it.
Not having other adults fuck
withyour kids is a Natural Right.Yeah! Fuck your own kids like a normal person!
"Fuck your own kids like a normal person!"—Jeffy
Biden is the source of all truth.
So sayeth our truth telling media. Amen.