Facebook Says Noting the CDC's Scientific Misrepresentations 'Could Mislead People'
The social media site slapped a warning on a column in which I criticized the CDC for exaggerating the evidence supporting mask mandates.

Facebook says my recent column about face masks is "missing context" and "could mislead people," based on an assessment by "independent fact checkers." That judgment and the analysis underlying it show how reflexive deference to government agencies distorts supposedly "independent" summaries of scientific evidence on controversial issues, especially issues related to COVID-19 control measures. When one of those agencies gets something wrong, criticism of its position is apt to be labeled "misleading" on social media platforms that strive to police COVID-19 "misinformation" at the government's behest, regardless of what the evidence actually shows.
My column summarized the results of January 30 Cochrane Library review that considered 18 randomized controlled trials (RCTs) aimed at measuring the effectiveness of surgical masks or N95 respirators at reducing the spread of respiratory viruses. Judging from those studies, the Cochrane review found, wearing a mask in public places "probably makes little or no difference" in the number of infections. The authors said that conclusion was based on "moderate-certainty evidence."
Does the Cochrane review prove that masks are worthless in protecting people from COVID-19? No. But it does show that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) misled the public about the strength of the evidence supporting mask mandates, which was the point I made in my column.
The authors of the Cochrane review suggest several possible explanations for their results, including "poor study design," weak statistical power "arising from low viral circulation in some studies," "lack of protection from eye exposure," inconsistent or improper mask use, "self-contamination of the mask by hands," "saturation of masks with saliva," and increased risk taking based on "an exaggerated sense of security." It is possible that some subjects in these studies did derive a benefit from wearing masks, but that effect was washed out by the behavior of other subjects who did not follow protocol, especially if those subjects took more risks than they otherwise would have because masks gave them "an exaggerated sense of security."
It is nevertheless fair to say that the Cochrane review is inconsistent with the CDC's statements about masks. After casting doubt on the value of general mask wearing early in the pandemic, the CDC decided the practice was so demonstrably effective that it should be legally mandated even for 2-year-olds. The CDC's mask advice initially did not distinguish between surgical masks or N95s and the commonly used cloth masks it eventually conceded were far less effective. Its message was that wearing a mask—any mask, apparently—"reduc[es] your chance of infection by more than 80 percent," a claim it said was supported by the best available evidence.
CDC Director Robert Redfield averred that masks were more effective than vaccines at protecting people from COVID-19. His successor, Rochelle Walensky, insisted that "the evidence is clear." But the evidence on which the CDC relied came from two sources with widely recognized drawbacks.
Laboratory experiments provide good reason to believe that masks, especially N95s, can reduce the risk that someone will be infected or infect other people. But those experiments are conducted in idealized conditions that may not resemble the real world, where people often choose low-quality cloth masks and do not necessarily wear masks properly or consistently.
Observational studies, which look at infection rates among voluntary mask wearers or people subject to mask mandates, can provide additional evidence that general mask wearing reduces infection. But such studies do not fully account for confounding variables.
If people who voluntarily wear masks or live in jurisdictions that require them to do so differ from the comparison groups in ways that independently affect disease transmission, the estimates derived from observational studies will be misleading. Those studies can also be subject to other pitfalls, such as skewed sampling and recall bias, that make it difficult to reach firm conclusions.
Despite those uncertainties, the CDC touted an observational study that supposedly proved "wearing a mask lowered the odds of testing positive" by as much as 83 percent. It said even cloth masks reduced infection risk by 56 percent, although that result was not statistically significant and the study's basic design, combined with grave methodological weaknesses, made it impossible to draw causal inferences.
RCTs aim to avoid these problems by comparing disease rates among subjects randomly assigned to wear masks in real-life situations with disease rates in a control group. That design makes the evidence produced by RCTs stronger than the evidence produced by laboratory experiments or observational studies. When they are conducted properly, RCTs support the inference that a difference in outcomes can be attributed to the intervention they test, because the treatment group and the control group are otherwise similar.
If wearing a mask had the dramatic impact that the CDC claimed, you would expect to see some evidence of that in RCTs. Yet the Cochrane review found essentially no relationship between mask wearing and disease rates, whether measured by reported symptoms or by laboratory tests. Nor did it confirm the expectation that N95s would prove superior to surgical masks in the field. The existing RCT evidence, the authors said, "demonstrates no differences in clinical effectiveness."
According to Facebook, making these points "could mislead people." But in fact, it was the CDC that misled people by insisting that the case was closed on masks and mask mandates while citing impressive but empirically shaky estimates of their effectiveness.
The "independent fact checkers" on whom Facebook relies, who work for an organization called Health Feedback, give the game away by contradicting themselves. "Multiple studies show that face masks reduce the spread of COVID-19," their headline claims, echoing the CDC. Health Feedback's "key take away" modifies that claim, saying "evidence suggests that widespread mask usage can reduce community transmission of SARS-CoV-2, especially when combined with other interventions like frequent handwashing and physical distancing" (emphasis added).
Already we have moved from a confident assertion about what "multiple studies show" regarding the effectiveness of masks in particular to a qualified statement about what "evidence suggests" regarding the effectiveness of multiple precautions taken in conjunction with each other. But the whole point of RCTs is to isolate the impact of a specific intervention—in this case, face masks.
According to Health Feedback's conclusion, "a growing body of evidence from RCTs and observational studies suggests that consistent mask-wearing can effectively reduce the spread of respiratory viruses like SARS-CoV-2 in both healthcare and community settings" (emphasis added). Health Feedback's fact checkers concede that "the extent to which community mask-wearing contributes to limiting the spread of different respiratory viruses and in different circumstances is still unclear" (emphasis added). They note potential weaknesses in the RCTs covered by the Cochrane review and say more research is needed to definitively settle the question of how effective masks are.
Contrast that gloss with the position taken by the CDC, which says "the evidence is clear" that wearing a mask "reduc[es] your chance of infection by more than 80 percent." Walensky said that remarkable reduction applies to "the flu," "the coronavirus," and "even just the common cold." The CDC also thinks the evidence is clear that mask mandates work in schools and other settings, despite the methodological problems with the observational studies it cites.
Health Feedback's analysis ostensibly addresses the claim that the Cochrane review "demonstrates" face masks "are ineffective at reducing the spread of COVID-19 and other respiratory diseases." I did not make that claim. But the fact check, which cites two publications of my column (on this website and in the Chicago Sun-Times), also objects to my statement that "the CDC grossly exaggerated the evidence supporting mask mandates." Health Feedback not only fails to show that assessment is wrong; it reinforces the point that the CDC distorted the science to support a predetermined conclusion.
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Any public health official that supported masking should be called out for that.
https://twitter.com/SpartaJustice/status/1626317570784501760?t=WwqJNlrdE7dYgwfgEBMwQg&s=19
GOVERNMENT CRIMES: They paid doctors and nurses to murder innocent patients. They faked Covid cases and deaths to instill fear in the population. They denied safe early treatments murdering millions of innocent people. They forced ineffective toxic Covid vaccines on the world.
They Censored anyone sharing life saving early treatment information and anyone who warned about the dangers of the Covd vaccines. The Governments willfully committed crimes against humanity.
THE CRIMINAL CARTEL: The Pandemic was created and orchestrated fraudulently by a Global Criminal Cartel led by Governments, Gates, Fauci, Tedros, Drosten, Schwab, Rothschilds, BlackRock, Rockefeller to control and to inject the world with Covid Vaccines.
CRIMINAL INDICTMENTS: The U.S. Department of Defense along with Fauci, Gates, Tedros, Moderna, Pfizer, FDA, CDC, WEF, CIA and others willfully and criminally engaged in racketeering, illegal advertising, fraud and mass premeditated murder of millions of innocent people worldwide.
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Vaccines and masks became politicized with the result the Republican Covid death toll rose far greater than for Democrats. Republicans refusing to comply with mandates is why it was so bad. https://politicsofthelastage.blogspot.com/2022/12/update-on-covid19-mask-and-vaccine.html
Among U.S. Counties, the more the vote for Trump, the greater the death toll, and the more the vote for Biden, the fewer people who died from Covid. It's obvious that people who complied with Biden's directions on the pandemic had a far greater chance of avoiding Covid. It was Republicans who refused to go along with them that were dying.
https://politicsofthelastage.blogspot.com/2022/08/ten-years-from-now-what-will-be-written.html
One wonders then why Blue states kept fighting for more and more mandates? Just let the Republicans die off of their own accord would have seemed to be a win.
Something about “Live free or die” being actual choices.
That’s what you get when you abdicate all control over the discernment of truth.
Private AND public interests lying and coercing people without any responsibility to prove their claims.
Criminalize lying, demand discernment of truth with correctly applied logic and science and hold EVERY citizen equally accountable for what they say.
Before you shit yourself unable to fathom an existence without lying, consider all the politicians, lawyers, policemen and judges who will lose their jobs with a criminal record after being proven lying..
Not to mention, you'd never get out of jail, Nazi sscum.
Prove it Kol Nidre boy.
You asserted he's Jewish with 'Kol Nidre'. Now the onus is on you to prove it or, impartially and by your own precepts, go fuck yourself.
Personally, I don't give two shits about Jew or Neo-Nazi, the mindless stupidity that presents as a repeated need to demonstrate yourself to be a drag on the human race, any/all parts, is what irritates me. It's almost like you're trying to do the Jews a favor by making their critics look bad.
I call him Kol Nidre boy because I’ve proven the fuckwit to be a demonstrated liar.
This is how I clearly and unambiguously ensure that what I say represents truth, reality.
I value the inalienable human right to free speech.
I value the supremacy of correctly applied logic and science in discerning and demonstrating truth aka reality.
I value the application of both in open debate to conclude and demonstrate that truth can never be refuted while untruths can be.
I commit that if what I say is ever refuted, I’ll never say it again.
You fuckwits don’t do any of this. Your evidence, if you have any, doesn’t support your claims and that doesn’t even matter to you. You will never win an argument that way but you still think that’s unfair. It’s no way for adults to behave.
Your behaviour, not mine, is “a drag on the human race”.
I call him Kol Nidre boy because I’ve proven the fuckwit to be a demonstrated liar.
Kol Nidre doesn't mean "liar", the fact that you assert Kol Nidre as synonymous with liar when you know the word 'liar' is a slur, or an obfuscation... a lie. If you mean he's a liar, you should call him a liar.
As usual the longer you go on, the more you prove yourself to be doing a disservice to Jews, Holocaust Deniers, me, you. You're free to keep going, but it won't do you any good.
"Nuh uh! You are!" - Rob Misek
Are you 6?
The fact that you refuse to recognize that the Jewish religion is based on lying only demonstrates your bigotry.
Recognize it or refute it Kol Nidre boy.
The Jewish religion which has defined that group of people for thousands of years is based on lying. They claim ownership of Freemasonry, the global secret satanic lying pyramid scheme.
The holiest Jewish prayer on the holiest (gag) Jewish day is the Kol Nidre. It is clearly a plan to lie to other people. Stupid Jews claim that it’s about lying to god but omnipresent beings can’t be lied to. Duh.
This is the Kol Nidre text
“All vows, obligations, oaths, and anathemas [curses]which we may vow, or swear, or pledge, or whereby we may be bound, from this Day of Atonement until the next we do repent. May they be deemed absolved, forgiven, annulled, and void, and made of no effect: they shall not bind us nor have any power over us. The vows shall not be reckoned vows; the obligations shall not be obligations; nor the oaths be oaths.”
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To "criminalize lying" is to put prosecutors and judges in the position of determining truth vs falsehood and codifying that role by statute. You're calling for a "solution" which has the immediate effect of amplifying what you claim is the problem.
Criminal trials are not a scientific process, and are not intended to be. At best, you're empowering 12 randomly selected individuals whose only qualifying factor is that they've either registered to vote or are licensed to drive a motor vehicle; neither of those has any correlation to a better than average understanding of science or logic (the last criminal jury I served on ended up hung because two of the members decided they didn't believe the testimony of one person which made up the entirety of the "evidence").
If you believe that the system that's operated by all the dishonest cops, lawyers, politicians, and judges you're referring to would ever actually hold any of them accountable (assuming your proposed law could be made enforceable ex post facto, which is fundamentally impossible under the Constitution and judicial/legal precedent), then I have to believe that shitting yourself is at least a weekly occurrence in your life.
Determining the truth of a statement is most definitely merely a scientific and logical task.
There is no requirement for interpretation. There is either proof to support any statement, or there isn’t.
Refuting any decision anytime would immediately overturn it as false, and those who made it would face criminal charges.
There wouldn’t be any corrupt judges etc when lying is criminalized.
If you think you can get away with lying, try it now and I’ll demonstrate that you’re lying when you can’t prove it or when I refute your lie.
“There is no requirement for interpretation. There is either proof to support any statement, or there isn’t.”
Lack of proof isn’t the same as proof of falsehood. There’s a whole universe of things remaining which humanity has no definitive knowledge of, and thousands of “factual” assertions which we have no way of proving either true of false.
Would someone claiming there’s intelligent life beyond the confines of this planet be subject to prosecution in your society of “criminalized falsehood? Would someone claiming there’s absolutely none be prosecuted? Would both statements be deemed “false” since there’s no verifiable proof of either? Both can’t actually be false since one or the other of those claims has to actually be true?
Maybe something more “down to earth” would be more appropriate? Does the Pfizer mRNA Covid vaccine present a lesser or greater danger to those taking it vs being infected with the virus unprotected? How about 12 months later? Or 5 years later? Should we jail people for claiming that the vaccine comes with a significant risk of long-term side effects, or for saying that it has none? Again, one of those two claims must be true for any given individual, but there’s no definitive proof either way; do we just jail anyone making any claims at all about the shot?
Without proof, the truth is to claim you don’t know.
All else is lying. Easy peasy.
Let's make the rules for violent crimes the same as you're proposing for the crime of "dishonesty".
Odds are there's been at least one death somewhere within 20 miles of your location in the last 7 days. Now, prove you're not responsible for it or you're going to prison for 20 years. Without proof of innocence, you're a murderer; easy peasy.
Requiring you to prove your statement is true doesn’t presume anything.
If you do, you’re telling the truth. If you can’t, you’re lying.
If you don’t want to prove your statements are true, don’t speak. You won’t be accused of lying.
Simple as that.
"Requiring you to prove your statement is true doesn’t presume anything.
If you do, you’re telling the truth. If you can’t, you’re lying."
This statement logically presumes that every claim is a lie until proven otherwise. That alone proves that your claim there's no presumption being made is a lie.
You make it far too easy when you follow your own lies immediately with the evidence proving your own dishonesty.
Do you think that being expected to demonstrate proficiency doing anything is based on the presumption that you’re stupid?
If you have a drivers licence it’s because you proved that you can drive. Nobody presumed that you couldn’t.
Should learn the meaning of a word before you use it as your argument.
In the system you propose as you describe it, any statement that isn't proven true is deemed to be a lie. Since a lie is a false a statement which is known by the speaker to be provably false, a system in which statements supported by less than totally conclusive data are deemed to be "lies" is presuming such statements to be provably false and further presuming that whoever made the statement believed it to be false at the time it was made.
"If you have a drivers license it’s because you proved that you can drive. Nobody presumed that you couldn’t."
Since licenses can be revoked for reasons unrelated to driving ability (and for reasons which have nothing at all to do with operation of a vehicle) and also expire at some defined time after they're issued, the possession or lack of a license has no definitive correlation to the ability to operate a vehicle. Licensing requirements are (or are increasingly becoming) more often that not, a way for the State to exert control over people's actions outside of the criminal/civil justice systems; many states use driving and other professional licensing systems as a means to coerce compliance with things such as child support orders (even in cases where paternity has been conclusively disproven by DNA testing), and Canada is looking to use their licensing systems to attempt to punish the expression of politically disfavored opinions (something which would be redundant in your world since they could simply find an instance where the speaker wasn't careful about framing a statement and convict them of criminal "lying" instead)
“the possession or lack of a license has no definitive correlation to the ability to operate a vehicle. ”
Liar. Hahaha
You really need lying to be criminalized.
The Federal Government withholds funding for Welfare programs from any state which doesn't at least suspend driver licenses of those found to be delinquent on child support payments, and has since the mid 1990s.
I don't know whether all 50 states comply with this requirement, but I know that California does. In addition to that, CA will not issue a new license to anyone who is delinquent on child support payments regardless of how they perform on the written/driving licensing tests (I'm not even sure that such people are allowed to take the tests at all). In CA at least, similar restrictions are also applied to a number of professional licensing processes as well (again, I don't know the situation in other states)
Unless you're asserting that keeping current on financial obligations is something that's inseparable from ability to safely operate a motor vehicle, this would mean by any rational interpretation (maybe I'm crediting you for a capability you lack in that department?) that there are factors included in driver licensing requirements which are completely unrelated to operation of a vehicle, which creates a clear situation in which perfectly capable and safe drivers would be denied a license or have their license suspended/revoked. If a license can be denied or suspended for reasons unrelated to ability to drive safely, then there is provably no "one to one" correlation between driving ability and licensing which also means that my claim of "no definitive correlation" is proven true.
With my claim proven true, your assertion that I'm lying is proven false, and the only reason I might want dishonesty criminalized is to see you punished to the fullest extent of that law for your continued and repeated dishonesty and hoisted on your own petard. Since I personally wouldn't want to expose myself to the inherent risk of politically motivated prosecution that by all available evidence is inseparable from systems in which the State is granted the authority to prosecute "lies", I actually don't want to see "dishonesty" criminalized (especially according to the terms which you've laid out for such a regime) because I'd rather choose to give no meaningful thought to your nonsense than to place myself in jeopardy of ideological persecution just because I happen to live in an area where I don't subscribe to the same ideology as the majority of the other voters in my district/county/state.
Everyone bear witness to how desperate the liar becomes to compel others that his lie, is truth.
The “correlation” is that drivers licences are ONLY obtained after demonstrating driving proficiency.
You are a demonstrated liar Kol Nidre boy.
"The “correlation” is that drivers licences are ONLY obtained after demonstrating driving proficiency."
That's only a partial correlation. If there were a total correlation, every licensed person would be a good driver (check out the L.A. freeways any time of any day to see hundreds of counterexamples in under an hour), and every good driver would have a license (I've already covered one of the many ways in which a qualified driver could be denied a license, and beyond that there are people who drive perfectly well that choose not to get licensed in places like NYC and DC because they don't need to drive and have a substitute ID in the form of an ID card or passport).
Another example of a partial correlation would be that all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Maybe that's past your comprehension if they all just look like swastikas in the dream-state where your mind operates though?
Correlation: a connection between two or more things:
Everyone but you apparently can recognize the definition connection between proving driving proficiency and obtaining a driver’s licence.
You’re a lying weasel Kol Nidre boy.
These optics allow people to see you for what you are. They are observing your face being rubbed in your lies and me laughing while I do it.
Hahaha
"Refuting any decision anytime would immediately overturn it as false, and those who made it would face criminal charges."
In that case, would reparations be made to all those convicted of falsehood for opposing the now-refuted statement? If a Judge were removed for "dishonesty" over a claim which was later proven true then would that Judge be restored to office and those who prosecuted them fired as officers of the court?
"There wouldn’t be any corrupt judges etc when lying is criminalized."
There are already laws prohibiting corruption by Judges and other officials. If enacting a law made it so, there wouldn't be any corrupt judges to need to be removed for the crime of "dishonesty".
There are already laws prohibiting prosecutorial misconduct, yet that goes unpunished dozens (maybe even hundreds) of times every week nationwide. If enacting a law simply made it so, this wouldn't happen.
Since "whistleblowers" are by definition calling attention to misconduct by existing authorities (or what they see as misconduct), what's the assurance that those existing authorities won't simply call allegations of their own corruption unproven (and therefore by your alleged "logic", untrue) and simply use the criminalization of that falsehood to further suppress any attempt to refute their claims?
I made no suggestion about reparations.
Corrupt people avoid conviction by lying and codification open to interpretation. Like qualified immunity. Criminalizing lying would take precedent.
Calling something unproven, when it is proven, is a lie.
In that case, do we fine parents who allow their young children to believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy?
Would the makers of movies like "Blair Witch Project" be subject to prosecution for making a work of fiction that's presented as if it's actually film/video footage that was discovered in the woods?
In most situations different eye-witnesses will remember events differently; Penn Gillette has a story about a particular conversation that he and Teller were involved in where a month later they both remembered the content differently, and after reviewing a video tape of it found out that they were both wrong . Would they all be subject to prosecution for having differing accounts of the same event even if they all honestly describe their recollection?
If you make a statement without clarification that you don’t know, or is fiction, that you can’t demonstrate with logic or science is true, you’re lying.
Eye witnesses can only say what they remember. It isn’t proof of truth and by clarifying that they could be wrong, they aren’t lying and couldn’t be convicted of it.
Several corroborating witnesses greatly improves the probability of truth, as would particularly any recordings of the event. Providing that there aren’t any contradictions or evidence refuting their testimony.
The widespread use of convenient digital recording devices, body cameras etc, has repeatedly demonstrated that those recordings of memory are reliable.
Moving forward with the criminalization of lying, the use of personal digital memory recording devices, will become a human right and help close the net around liars.
"Moving forward with the criminalization of lying, the use of personal digital memory recording devices, will become a human right and help close the net around liars."
With the increasing capability of CGI and "deepfake" technology, it's getting easier every day to produce completely realistic looking video footage of people saying/doing things which are not actually their words/actions. The more your "honesty enforcement" becomes dependent on digital recordings, the more susceptible it'll become to being fooled by such forgeries.
Not to mention cases in which the necessary proof is held by someone (often agents of the government itself) in secrecy without anyone knowing that such evidence even exists. One glaring recent example was the suppression of Covid data by the CDC itself. In your system, it would seem that the CDC would be considered a credible "authority" on most current state of scientific knowledge but a great many highly respected experts (especially authors/signatories to the Great Barrington declaration, and those who questioned claims that the vaccines were "proven safe") around the world were banned from various online platforms for "misinformation" (and I'd assume in your fantasy would also have been punished for "dishonesty") for having disagreed with claims from the CDC which we now know were unsupported based in part on data that was being withheld from the public; how does data that only the accusers know exists get brought to light in your "honesty trials"?
Ahh, but think about the satisfying conviction of the lying waste of skin who tries to fake a video to lie and is caught.
The more people recording what they witness the greater the probability of liars being caught.
How's anyone going to come up with contradictory footage proving that a good deep-fake is a fake? Unless you're filming the person creating it in real time, or get a confession from the creator, any other approach is an attempt to prove a negative, which is logically impossible.
The worse possibility to consider is that the creator of the deep-fake is working in coordination with an unethical prosecutor who will then protect the creator from the risk of exposure in the course of the trial.
In the world you dream of, innocent people will be almost required to record all of their own telephone conversations and keep redundant backups of all of their other electronic communications as protection against some future accusation that they said something which turned out to be proven incorrect at some future time. I'd definitely be buying stock in Kingston and Western Digital with the ways that will drive demand for digital storage media.
The more layers of this I think about, the more it seems like you'd probably be much happier living in a place like North Korea, Belarus, mainland China, or Hungary under Orban's regime. Their rules may not be based in actual objective facts, but they're pretty much living in the kind of system that would result from any attempt to impose the kind of "criminalized dishonesty" that you're imagining. I suppose in a sense, that makes their systems "truth based" according to your logic since all of the objective evidence available points toward the conclusion that allowing for prosecution of speech in general enables a totalitarian State.
You really are terrified by the thought that you will be unable to lie. Is it your religion?
North Korea. You’re a joke. If you don’t want to prove your statements are true, simply don’t speak. You won’t be accused of lying.
I’m not a video forensic expert so I can’t make as bold a claim as you have.
You’re the one claiming that faked videos can’t be determined to be fake.
Prove your claim. Link to an expert peer reviewed analysis of the subject that demonstrates your claim is true.
If you can’t, you’re making it up, lying.
"You really are terrified by the thought that you will be unable to lie. Is it your religion?"
What scares me is the idea of living in a society in which anyone contradicting the State can and will be put on trial for "dishonesty", with the terms of that trial being that the accused must prove their innocence to the satisfaction of a judge that's part of the regime making the accusation. I'm confused by how enthusiastically you claim to wish to live in such an environment.
"...simply don’t speak. You won’t be accused of lying."
So you admit that the real purpose of your entire philosophy is to silence the expression nearly all dissent. My suggestion that you emigrate to Cuba, Iran, Syria, Hungary, or North Korea is entirely sincere since those regimes have created exactly the environment you're describing.
"You’re the one claiming that faked videos can’t be determined to be fake."
I'm claiming that it's impossible for anyone to prove they never actually said whatever is depicted in a deep-fake video. Since it's no more difficult to fake a video of something which actually did happen as it is to fake one of something which never occurred (in some ways it's easier to make fake footage of a real event since there's no need to invent the plot), whether or not a particular video can or cannot be proven fake has no bearing on proving that whatever it depicts did or didn't truly happen.
Unless there's authentic footage of the depicted event that can be verified to have been shot at the same time/place, proving that a video is fake is irrelevant to proving that the events depicted in it didn't actually occur as depicted.
What scares you is the idea that you’ll be expected to prove that what you say is true or face consequences for trying to coerce people , because that is all that I’m suggesting..
If that ruins your life, it’s only because you’re a liar and a drag on society.
Your logic is poor.
When you are asked to present your drivers license is the authority’s real motive, “trying to stop you from driving “?
Paranoid much?
Regarding video, it’s obvious what you’re saying.
I asked you to prove your claim is true. You haven’t.
In this thread, I’ve shown that you are a demonstrated liar.
You can’t prove lies, can you?
"What scares you is the idea that you’ll be expected to prove that what you say is true or face consequences for trying to coerce people , because that is all that I’m suggesting.."
When I make a statement of any kind, whether it's a claim of fact, and expression of opinion, or a suggestion of a course of action, if it's limited to only verbal expression, there's no element of coercion present or implied.
Without exercising some kind of physical force, financial incentivization, or implication of civil legal action (which would be implicitly backed by a threat of force by agents of the Government), I have no ability to control the actions of another person other than attempting to persuade them to voluntarily choose whatever course of action I might be reccomending. As an individual not acting as an agent of any larger entity or government, nothing I say has any mechanism for coercive enforcement. Even if I were to tell a stranger that up is down, they're under no obligation to believe me, and I have no authority to "criminalize" or otherwise meaningfully impose consequences on them for their choice.
You're the one calling for granting the State increased power to coerce certain kinds of speech, or silence through the threat of criminal prosecution followed by fines, imprisonment, and other coercive measures (perhaps even revocation of their license to drive a vehicle?).
"If that ruins your life, it’s only because you’re a liar and a drag on society."
The only defense against the eventual abuse of power by agents of the Government is to not grant that power to the government at all. Empowering the State to impose criminal penalty on those deemed "dishonest" necessarily requires that the state be made the final arbiter of what constitutes "truth"; a government which can't make the final determination over what is "true" or what is "proven" has no basis upon which to decide what constitutes "dishonesty" and therefore can't prosecute or otherwise punish anyone for being "dishonest" in any scenario.
Not being able to coerce the behavior of others to suit my desires doesn't ruin my life, it defines my life. What would ruin my life would be to someday be charged with a crime for disagreement with the party in power (a daily occurrence for me as a resident of California) and for it to happen in a court run by that same regime where the burden is entirely on me to prove my innocence to the satisfaction of the agents of the very regime looking to punish dissent as a crime.
"Your logic is poor."
Your logic is inverted. You claim to want to "criminalize dishonesty" but do so based on a premise which would be deemed to be criminally dishonest in the very system of "justice" you propose. You also want to empower the state to coerce the behavior of everyone around you and accuse those who disagree of having some desire or need to "coerce" others via methods which entail no actual means of coercion.
"When you are asked to present your drivers license is the authority’s real motive, “trying to stop you from driving “?"
Of the hundreds (maybe even thousands since I've had a license for over 30 years) of times in my life where I've been asked to produce my Drivers License, fewer than 10 have been situations where I had been actively driving at the time, and in none of those instances was there any possibility of the situation leading to my license being suspended or revoked, and when the situation was resolved I then drove myself away and continued to my destination every single time.
Your suggestion that anyone afraid of prosecution under your "dishonesty" law need only remain perpetually silent seems to be almost the exact picture you're trying to pretend I've ever suggested by indulging your frivolous "driver license" tangent at all. I have to assume that under your fantasized "honesty" regime, that kind of projection would be prosecutable as a version of lying since you're attempting attribute your own thoughts to someone that couldn't be disagreeing more clearly.
“When I make a statement of any kind, whether it’s a claim of fact, and expression of opinion, or a suggestion of a course of action, if it’s limited to only verbal expression, there’s no element of coercion present or implied.“
What makes you believe that to be true?
Again you’re using words that you don’t know the meaning of, incorrectly, in an argument.
Lying falsely assumes the authority of truth to compel people to act in the liars interest instead of their own.
That’s coercion and you’re a liar.
“ Your logic is inverted. You claim to want to “criminalize dishonesty” but do so based on a premise which would be deemed to be criminally dishonest in the very system of “justice” you propose.”
What makes you believe that to be true, because you certainly can’t claim to have observed or otherwise proven it?
The rest of that liar’s drivel doesn’t merit a response.
I notice that you haven’t admitted to lying yet. Might I suggest you do it quickly and succinctly.
"[“When I make a statement of any kind, whether it’s a claim of fact, and expression of opinion, or a suggestion of a course of action, if it’s limited to only verbal expression, there’s no element of coercion present or implied.“]
What makes you believe that to be true?"
What is the coercive element to a strictly verbal statement made in a context where there's no implicit or explicit connection to any potential financial, legal, or physical consequences what other possible coercive element could possibly be present? All I can do by verbal means is possibly convince someone to willingly change their own viewpoint relative to whatever idea I might have expressed, or cause them to choose to change their opinion of me in a way that increases or decreases my credibility in their estimation; either way, they're making the choice to alter their thinking or how they evaluate incoming information. True persuasion is different from coercion in that it requires those changing their thinking or behavior to do so by their own conscious choice in the absence of any additional consequences.
If either you or I had the ability to alter anyone's thinking against their will by use of words alone, we wouldn't still be in disagreement about your concept for "criminalized dishonesty". Either I would have coerced you to agree that it's a half-baked idea which exists almost exclusively in oppressive dictatorships, or you would have forced me to accept that it would somehow reduce rather than enhance the power of corrupt and dishonest officials within the government enforcing it. Since neither of those situations are any closer to being the case than when we began, it's clear that communication/argument consisting only of verbal exchanges inherently lack any possible mechanism by which coercion would be accomplished.
If you're claiming there is some kind of coercive mechanism available within a strictly verbal exchange, you're going to need to at least point out what it might be and ideally explain how it would actually function. As you keep saying, the one making the claim is responsible to provide proof. If you're not making the claim that there's a way in which verbal-only exchange can be coercive, then you're not disputing my premise that such expression lacks any mechanism of coercion.
The Jew is lying while advocating for lying.
You have certainly demonstrated that coercion isn’t necessarily successful.
So you're proposing that everyone backing a particular claim is to be punished with criminal penalties, and if that claim is later proven to have been true those who disputed it are to be equally punished but there's no relief for those who were falsely punished under a law intended to enforce honesty?
Eventually you'll end up with a society in which literally everyone has been convicted of "lying" on some claim, and therefore is deemed to be too corrupt to operate the government. At that point, who continues to enforce your ill-conceived legal code, and with nobody left to enforce the law, how does it continue to deter anyone from further "dishonesty"?
You're proposing an "honesty" filter similar to California's "Prop 65" which supposedly informs consumers when they're dealing with a product or environment which increases their risk of cancer. The problem is that so many substances have been determined by the State to be carcinogenic that literally every commercial building, parking lot, and many vehicles have "blanket" warnings at their entry point and in some stores nearly every product on the shelves has a warning tag (I once bought a screwdriver at Home Depot which had a Prop 65 warning sticker attached). The warnings are now so ubiquitous that everyone has no choice but to ignore them; even cowering at home doesn't keep you safe since half the furniture in any house has a warning tag on it (State safety regulations on furniture require the use of fire retardants which are listed as carcinogenic).
Keep it simple stupid.
I’m proposing that people don’t lie.
By the time you’ve used enough weasel words to scheme a way to approximate a lie with plausible deniability you’ll have no credibility left to coerce anyone with.
Your lie won’t work.
"Keep it simple stupid.
I’m proposing that people don’t lie."
You're proposing that making a new law will alter human behaviors which have been happening for as long as there have been humans behaving. To borrow a bit of insight from a work of fiction "the minute God crapped out the third caveman, a conspiracy was formed against one of them".
Since the current laws against situation lying don't deter people from lying on those situations (and often don't result in them being punished when they do), the existing evidence would contradict your claim that making a law against lying in all situations would put an end to dishonesty. Therefore, by your own standard of proof, you are lying. if you want to create a wold without dishonesty, the most effective way for you to start is to be honest yourself (since your words and actions are the only ones in the world which are under your own control).
Also you're pretending that empowering the criminal justice system to determine who is or isn't lying will somehow take that authority away from the government of which that system is a part. Might as well propose that if people had the ability to fly then airline travel wold be far less expensive; neither version of the world has any possibility of coming true.
What makes you believe that laws against perjury and fraud don’t deter some people from committing those crimes?
Do you feel that way about all laws?
Criminalizing lying will simply deter people who fear the consequences of being convicted, like every other law we have does.
I never suggested that all crime is prevented with laws. You’ll need to find another straw man.
Your assertion is that a law against dishonesty will deter everyone from lying in all situations.
I'm going to have to ask you to post a link to documented proof of any instance in which someone decided not to lie in court just to avoid being charged with perjury, or else your claim that the existing laws deter people with any frequency is, by your own standard of proof, a "lie".
If you don't stop lying in this exchange, there's no reason for anyone reading to consider any of your claims to be credible. Without objective proof, you're a liar; easy peasy...
“Your assertion is that a law against dishonesty will deter everyone from lying in all situations.”
Prove that I made that assertion or you’ve just been demonstrated to be lying.
In the thread on the NYT story, you repeatedly claimed that to "criminalize dishonesty" would eliminate lying, and government corruption.
I'd paste in a link to those posts, but this forum doesn't include that capability.
Semi-related, in this thread you imply that making the determination of honesty the job of criminal courts somehow removes that power from the hands of the Government. All the bullshit about it being an issue of "science" aside, the courts in which it's all being settled are absolutely part of the Government, and the Judges, Prosecutors, Bailiffs, Court Recorders, and in some cases the Defense Attorneys are all employed directly by that Government to do the Government's business; anything that's decided in the courts is being decided by and is within the authority of the Government no matter how you pretend you can spin it.
Now you’re trying to use one lie to justify another.
Admit it. You’re lying.
“In the thread on the NYT story, you repeatedly claimed that to “criminalize dishonesty” would eliminate lying, and government corruption”
That’s a bald faced lie. Why don’t you just copy and paste where I said that in that article?
I can post a link to that article and demonstrate what I did say to you that contradicts your lie.
“When people are facing real punishment for lying most will choose truth.”
“When lying is criminalized, one need only ask unambiguous questions for anyone either government or citizen to either tell the truth or break the law or say nothing at all.
Government is not above the law.“
“When all lying is criminalized, conspiracies will be much more difficult and risky to coordinate because so many people will be needed to break so many laws.“
https://reason.com/2023/02/09/the-new-york-times-warns-that-freedom-of-speech-threatens-public-health-and-democracy-itself/?comments=true#comment-9920969
Why'd you choose to exclude this one of your claims?
"When we add lying in general to the list of crimes in our justice system we will immediately and clearly force honesty upon dishonest players in the electorate and everywhere else."
The people who currently get away with disregard for the existing laws enforcing truthfulness (perjury, lying to Congress, etc) are the ones who are most politically and personally connected to those in positions of power (both elected and unelected). Bill Clinton never faced charges for lying in sworn depositions with Federal investigators in the 1990's, despite the video footage of it being run on every network and cable News outlet in operation at the time. The conclusion of the FBI report (produced by an FBI run by a man who went on to lie in Congressional testimony without being criminally charged) on HIllary Clinton didn't conclude that she did nothing wrong, it concluded that "no prosecutor would be likely to pursue the case". The former head of the either the CIA or NSA (I forget which precisely) who lied in sworn testimony to Congress about surveillance of domestic electronic communication within the USA and was later exposed by Edward Snowden never faced any criminal prosecution (Snowden still does if he were to ever return to the USA). Hunter Biden lied on application paperwork in order to illegally purchase a firearm (an act which could lead to indictment on multiple felony charges if any prosecutor chose to pursue it) and has so far faced no legal consequences for it. Fauci lied about NIH funding for "gain of function" viral research in sworn congressional testimony (his claims were contradicted a week later by records release to the media by the NIH itself), yet he wasn't prosecuted during the time when his political allies held control of the Congress (whether he faces prosecution at some point in the hear future is TBD). Those are just the examples that have been widely reported by national and worldwide news outlets and which are objectively provable.
All available evidence seems to indicate that individuals with high levels of power and influence within the government routinely aren't held accountable for brazen violations of existing laws prohibiting dishonesty in particular situations.
By your standard that any statement that's unproven or unprovable is a "lie", your assertion that a general prohibition on dishonesty would be enforced any less selectively is at best unfounded, so the claim that such a law would "immediately and clearly force honesty" on those who are currently allowed to flaunt existing laws with impunity would have to be judged to be a "lie". Since that assertion is the clear basis for your claims that "conspiracies" would become impossible, the idea that the net result of the system you're envisioning would improve the accountability or integrity of those in office (or that it would actually lead to anyone allied with whichever party currently held power being driven from a position of power for actual malfeasance) is similarly unfounded and therefore under your own criteria "a lie".
All laws force people, that’s what they’re for.
People who ignore them are ostensibly brought to justice.
You claimed “ “In the thread on the NYT story, you repeatedly claimed that to “criminalize dishonesty” would eliminate lying, and government corruption””
You lied, again.
When are you just going to admit it? Never? Liar.
You deny that these are your on words?
“When we add lying in general to the list of crimes in our justice system we will immediately and clearly force honesty upon dishonest players in the electorate and everywhere else.”
How about these?
"When all lying is criminalized, conspiracies will be much more difficult and risky to coordinate because so many people will be needed to break so many laws."
Neither statement is what you claimed I said.
You are a demonstrated liar Kol Nidre boy.
Under the standard you'd impose, no statement is actually provable, and every unproven statement is a lie. Under that standard, everyone who isn't silent is a "liar", so being a "demonstrated liar" wouldn't distinguish any one person from the rest of humanity since every person to have ever spoken would also be one as well.
What makes you believe that to be true?
The standard is the use of correctly applied logic and science and people use them all the time to prove the truth.
I’ve clearly met the standard to demonstrate the truth that you are a liar.
I proved that you lied when you said there is no definitive correlation to driving proficiency and obtaining a drivers licence.
I proved that you lied when you claimed that I said something specifically in a discussion that I didn’t say.
I demonstrated that you can’t prove your claim that faked videoed can’t be forensically determined to be faked.
I proved with correctly applied logic and the definition of the word that you lied when you suggested that lying isn’t coercion.
"If you think you can get away with lying, try it now and I’ll demonstrate that you’re lying when you can’t prove it or when I refute your lie."
Here's one:
There are fewer ants living underground in the Los Angeles Basin than there are grains of sand on the beaches between the Hermosa Beach Pier and the outlet of Ballona Creek into the Pacific Ocean.
That is a factual assertion of the comparison between two values which have finite and quantifiable values. Proving whether my claim is true or false is a simple matter of citing both quantities, at which point it'll be clear which of the two is greater and which is lesser. In the world where your mind operates, this should be trivial to prove.
Your example is an estimate, not a fact, probably based on correctly applied science and logic. If that application were verified we would be justified in considering it true. That’s the purpose of logic and science, to discern truth, reality.
That’s the best certainty of truth, reality that humanity has ever been capable of. We aren’t omnipresent.
We call it truth and yes it is a relatively simple concept and often equally simple to prove.
Why are you then so concerned about our ability to criminalize all lying like it has already been done in court with perjury and commerce, fraud?
Don't try to weasel out of it. You said you could prove the truth or falsehood of any claim I made.
If I had meant the claim I made as an estimate, I would have used the word "estimate" in the sentence.
I made a clear and straightforward factual assertion. You claimed to have the ability to confirm or refute any such statement definitively, so unless you can provide proof or disproof of my claim, you're lying and therefore a criminal not to be taken seriously.
How about a much simpler example: I use the initials "B G" to post here because my actual name is Brandon Grossman; now prove whether or not that statement is true.
You made the statement, if you can’t prove it with demonstrated correctly applied logic or science your claim that it is true, is a lie.
So prove it, or you’re a liar. Done.
Weasel that.
Now do the same with your claimed name. The courts could make you.
In the U.S. criminal courts, the burden of proof is on the accuser (the government) to prove that the charge (in this case that my statement is false) is supported.
Any law "criminalizing dishonesty" would require the prosecution to prove that the accused person is being dishonest, and the commonly understood threshold of dishonesty is to knowingly make a false statement. Making a claim that's merely unsupported isn't legally "lying" unless it can be proved that the person making the claim knows it's false at the time of the statement.
The world in which you want to live would require the repeal of the 1st, and 5th Amendments at the very least, and probably the 6th as well; beyond that the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" would have to be removed from the system and the culture. Accomplishing all of that would be child's play compared to the quantum leaps in efficiency and integrity of the judicial system and the alteration of the fundamental nature of humanity that would also be required though.
The burden of speech is on the speaker.
"The burden of speech is on the speaker."
Once it becomes a criminal charge, the burden of proof is on those making the accusation. At least that's how it works in societies that are nominally "free".
The burden of proof has fallen on the accused in plenty of dictatorships and totalitarian regimes throughout history and even now. If you really want to live that way, I hear Syria is nice this time of year, or Afghanistan if you prefer a "mountain" lifestyle, or Cuba if you prefer the beach. Plenty of options for you to go live out your dream without the need to inflict the result on those who realize how half-baked the entire concept is.
Requiring you to prove your statement is true doesn’t presume anything.
If you do, you’re telling the truth. If you can’t, you’re lying.
If you don’t want to prove your statements are true, don’t speak. You won’t be accused of lying.
Simple as that.
I don’t think that people talking less but saying more is necessarily a bad thing, particularly when what they do say is the truth.
"I don’t think that people talking less but saying more is necessarily a bad thing, particularly when what they do say is the truth."
If they're doing it voluntarily and motivated from a place of wisdom and skepticism, then some movement in that direction would be an improvement in my opinion as well.
If they're motivated by fear of being prosecuted for dissent from whatever the official "truth" as defined by the government who employs the prosecutors empowered to choose who to prosecute and who to let alone (federal prosecutors are literally appointed to "serve at the pleasure of the President" and can be removed/replaced for any reason or for no reason at all that's oppression no matter how ignorant you choose to be about it.
Only the corrupt are afraid of telling the truth and they should be.
"Only the corrupt are afraid of telling the truth and they should be."
If all truth is universal and objectively provable, then it should also be unchanging and clearly true to all who hear it, and nobody should have any reason to be afraid of saying it. Unless they're doing so under a system of "enforced honesty" that's operated by those who are using it to simply punish dissent from whatever they personally happen to believe or from whatever ideology keeps them in their position of power.
You’re a demonstrated liar and your logic is feeble.
In a system of enforced honesty, people speaking the truth have nothing to fear.
“ those who are using it” TRUTH “to simply punish dissent from whatever they personally happen to believe or from whatever ideology keeps them in their position of power” are neither honest nor using truth.
You’re talking lies and gibberish again.
"In a system of enforced honesty, people speaking the truth have nothing to fear."
When the operators of "the system" are empowered to determine what is or isn't "truth", that precludes the concept of objective truth. Orwell's "1984" was a cautionary depiction of systematic oppression claiming to be protecting the "greater good", not a how-to manual for appropriate structuring of a society; seems more and more clear that you misunderstood that particular nuance.
When the definition of "truth" is what those running the system determine it to be, then anyone dissenting from the system will be punished regardless of how much proof they can manage to provide in what you would pass off as their "trial"; when only the accused is subjected to a burden of proof, the more commonly accepted term for the proceeding might be "witch hunt" or "inquisition"
You’re so desperate to demonstrate the truth of your claim that criminalizing lying won’t or can’t work to minimize lying in society.
It’s ironic that someone so desperate to advocate lying does so by appealing to truth.
I’ve said repeatedly that truth needs to be determined with correctly applied logic and science, yet your repeated claim is that dishonest people in charge will determine truth using other corrupt methods.
Those corrupt practices only exist in an environment where people lie or use physical force to coerce.
That doesn’t refute what I said. There is no justice in your fantasy 1984 society.
The fact that I’ve proven you’re lying many times right here demonstrates not only that lying needs to be criminalized but also in most cases particularly yours is a relatively simple thing to do by people familiar with the material.
You have unknowingly allowed me to make it abundantly clear to everyone witnessing this discourse that lies can be exposed.
"You’re so desperate to demonstrate the truth of your claim that criminalizing lying won’t or can’t work to minimize lying in society."
My claim is that the people in power would selectively apply such a law in a way to punish those who dissent from their chosen ideologies, especially if your proposed definition of "truth" were to be used as the basis of the system, and that the only officials to be removed from positions of power over these issues would be those who threaten or cause trouble for those in charge. The lies keeping the top levels of power intact would be defined within the courts as the "truth" and the system would solidify rather than erode the power of the corrupt.
"I’ve said repeatedly that truth needs to be determined with correctly applied logic and science, yet your repeated claim is that dishonest people in charge will determine truth using other corrupt methods."
That's because the people in charge would control the application of the "honesty" laws just as they do with the application of all other laws. As for "correctly applied logic", you wouldn't recognize that concept if it crawled up your ass and took over control of your thoughts from the fever dream currently occupying your mind. Anyone reading your posts on these forums who does understand how logic works has probably realized that since before I ever reacted to any of your nonsense.
"That doesn’t refute what I said. There is no justice in your fantasy 1984 society."
The lack of justice in such a society is one thing we can both agree on. We apparently diverge on the question of whether or not your proposed "honesty laws" are a necessary underpinning to construct the kinds of society depicted in 1984; a novel in which the main character starts out making a living fabricating historical records and news propaganda as an employed agent of the very government which eventually tortures him for writing a diary including the entry "true freedom is the freedom to say that 2 + 2 = 4".
"The fact that I’ve proven you’re lying many times right here"
All that you've proven is that you've constructed a standard of "honesty" under which every statement ever made is a "lie" and everyone who has ever spoken is a "liar".
“My claim is that the people in power would selectively apply such a law in a way to punish those who dissent from their chosen ideologies”
What makes you believe that to be true?
When lying is demonstrated by correctly applied logic and science, and is criminalized to apply to everyone, as I have suggested from the start, even those in power cannot escape the truth without lying.
Truth aka reality is the ultimate power, no person or group can honestly supersede it.
This is where your religion of lies has served your people poorly Kol Nidre boy.
"That’s the best certainty of truth, reality that humanity has ever been capable of. We aren’t omnipresent.
We call it truth and yes it is a relatively simple concept and often equally simple to prove."
If absolute certainty doesn't exist, then nothing is actually simple to prove. If enough people calling something "true" makes it so, then truth itself becomes a subjective concept and logic/science are no longer the appropriate tools for proving or disproving something.
If, under penalty of law, anyone unable to absolutely prove their statements must remain silent or be convicted for lying then without the possibility to ever absolutely prove anything, everyone would be well advised to remain entirely silent since any statement on any topic could be deemed to have insufficient supporting evidence (no matter how much evidence might exist) and thereby subject the speaker to criminal penalty as a "liar" (using your twisted definition of a "lie" in place of the commonly accepted definition that the word has had for millenia of human history.
If absolute proof isn't possible, then what's the factor that would distinguish your proposed "criminalized dishonesty" from the system in which Socrates was sentenced to death for denying the Gods? Or the system in which Gallielo was put on trial for suggesting a heliocentric rather than geocentric configuration of our solar system (everyone else in his time being able to clearly see with their own eyes that the sun and planets moved around while everything on Earth stayed where it was put until moved by some detectable outside influence)? Or the system that prosecuted teachers in the southern USA for teaching the ideas hypothesized by Charles Darwin rather than the divine truth laid out in the Book of Genesis?
I don't personally believe that "God made the fossils in the rocks to test our faith", but what proof do we actually have that Dinosaurs ever really lived on the earth, and that the fossils didn't actually somehow form within the rocks as those who do believe it claim? Should all Paleontologists be imprisoned in your system as liars since there's no conclusive truth that what they're studying are actually the remains of ancient animals?
“ If absolute certainty doesn’t exist“ I never said that. Liar
“ nothing is actually simple to prove.” what makes you believe that to be true? It is a liars self fulfilling prophecy.
“If enough people calling something “true” makes it so” that’s your illogical fallacy alone. I never said or suggested it.
“ If, under penalty of law, anyone unable to absolutely prove their statements must remain silent ” I never said that either. I did say people could say they don’t know”
It’s obvious to everyone but you that you’re a proven liar and I can expose your lies easily and any time I like.
You have been completely discredited Kol Nidre boy and I have copied this discourse to demonstrate that any time I want.
I’m pleased with these optics
If there's a "best certainty of truth" that humanity is capable of, then absolute certainty doesn't exist within the context of any system operated by humans. I mistook you for someone capable of connecting those dots, apparently not the first time I've overestimated your capacity for logic or rational thought.
Your admission that it's all a choice of "optics" proves that all of your claims are purely subjective and therefore unprovable, which by your own logic would make them "lies" when framed as objective statements with qualifiers like "It's clear to everyone". I'm not calling you a liar by any objective standard, I'm calling you one by the subjective standard which you claim to want to see applied to the world with the coercive backing of state-sponsored threats of violence in the form of law enforcement.
Since you bring up the Kol Nidre, where did you obtain the incomplete "translation" that you have chosen to believe? I'm not a practicing member of the religion, I doubt you'd ever find a single observant jew in the world who actually takes that recitiation (which isn't technically a "prayer") to mean what you've claimed it means; if you think there is one, then by your own standard, the burden is on you to name them and provide some kind of confirmation from them that they believe as you claim they do (and if you're not claiming there's even one, then what's your evidence to support the claim that your cited translation is complete and in alignment with the accepted meaning?).
Based on what's omitted from the translation, I'd have to guess that it was either provided by someone affiliated with Richard Spencer, or it was maybe cribbed from a copy of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" (a work of fiction that's been promoted as truth in certain theological cultures). What's missing from your partial "translation" is the repeated mentions specifying that the oaths/vows/commitments being discarded are only ones made to oneself or to "god"/the Temple, what's actually being released is essentially any "New Year's Resolutions" that someone made the previous year, along with forgiving themself for any failures to live up to those commitments. If your chosen misinterpretation were true, all orthodox Jewish couples would need to be re-married every year since their vows to each other would be included in the purge of obligations that you falsely believe is included in that recitation; as opposed to the reality which is that if they ever choose to divorce, they have to obtain separate permission for such a split to be recognized within the community of their faith even after the government recognizes the dissolution of the secular version of their marriage contract.
I already said that stupid Jews don’t realize that they can’t lie to god.
Thanks for demonstrating my point.
Would I be close to accurate in guessing that you grew up in or near the area of Hayden Lake, or somewhere in Idaho north of I-90, and that the "church" in which you were raised got dismantled by the Federal Government sometime in the 1990s or 2000s based on reports filed by undercover FBI Agents who infiltrated the community?
Maybe you're even now living near Whitefish, MT and spending a significant amount of your time doing things with or on behalf of Richard Spencer?
You haven’t been close to accurate yet. Why would you start now?
As long as these social media and tech companies are staffed and run by millennial toddlers this insanity is going nowhere. There are no adults.
The Chinese wear masks or go to jail, they have massive compliance with mask mandates along with distancing and such, didn't seem to help them.
What did help them was that their government just lied and lied and lied about how many people were infected and had died. It's also possible that some of the people who didn't die of COVID only did so because the bullet in the back of their head "cured" their COVID.
That being said, wearing a mask reduces the accuracy of facial recognition technology. That in itself makes it worth wearing a mask.
(anti)social media companies lie. Independent fact checkers are not independent, they are democrat shills. (and don’t give a damn abut fact)
The CDC defines unreliable.
Water is suspected, in some studies, of possibly being wet.
Just shut up and wear the mask, Jacob. Otherwise people might think you are a Republican.
Those of us who noted the scientific evidence that masks were useless back in July of 2020 don't want to hear it anymore. The science was never going to be allowed to interfere with the narrative.
Yeah, he can’t admit that masks have no health utility, and continues to clutch at straws–and pearls.
It's almost like wanting to be a libertarian, but afraid of giving up on big government (and offending important people).
You know who else couldn’t abide being called out for scientific misrepresentations?
Greta Thunberg?
Still would.
Oh..Is there a potential Nordic theme here? Gosh, that hadn’t occurred to me.
Isn’t it good, Norwegian would?
Trofim Lysenko?
Thomas Dolby?
To be honest, he was just blinded by science.
He was also Hyperactive as hell!
Adherents of the Georg Ernst Stahl school of phlogiston theory?
You should have just raised your hand.
Jeffy is suspiciously absent. Oh, and where's JFree to tell us Sullum is wrong here?
Duh, Fauci. What do I win?
A free booster shot.
Polonium is faster and more humane.
A burial that everyone doesn't attend.
Chiropractors?
The Church of Scientology?
*SIGH* 8 hours later and no one guessed Elena Ceausescu!
I feel gypped.
To be fair, it is Facebook where the average user can be easily confused by the assertion that both 2 + 2 and 1 + 3 equal 4 and therefore any factual statement can be labelled 'misleading'.
Heresy!! 2+2=5 as Jacob the goodthinker will tell you so people don't think he might be Republican.
Arbitrary and capricious rules are a feature of YouTube and FaceBook, not a bug.
And did we learn anything from this episode, Jacob?
All I can do is laugh at Sullum.
The useful idiots always think going along with the statists will surely work out for them, and they certainly wont use that power you helped them get against you the second you speak a word out of step with the official narrative.
Maybe allowing these people to run rampant in the name of 'public health' for years because they had 'good intentions' was a terrible fucking idea and commenters here told you this in early 2020.
“Allowing”? Whom does Facebook belong to?
Some part private some part government.
the governments private parts .... cause they're all dicks
Yes, we learned you stick your head above the parapet after The Atlantic asks for amnesty.
"...reflexive deference to government agencies distorts"
How the hell did we get to this point, you ask?
Because it is far more important to gang up and oppose your perceived enemies than it is to get anything right. Win, lose, no draw.
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You mean Facebook does not have expertise on what is quality information on medical and scientific subjects, nor do these appointed so-called fact checkers?
What about Trump though?
It thought the walls were closing in. He had nuclear secrets, remember? Classified information that he totally was trying to steal and share with the Russians.
What happened with that?
Do you think maybe he's running for office again as a last ditch attempt to keep the DOJ off his back?
Watching the bitching in the comments slowly percolate up to Reason headlines is a fun pastime.
They are just "special" libertarians that take a while to notice the bad things.
Are you under the impression the Reason staff looks at the comments?
ENB does.
Of course, @MikeLaursen2 already knew that. He replied to @ENBrown in that Twitter thread.
Be he still didn't get a sandwich.
He probably made a sammich for ENB.
https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1627724200839348246?t=6zOjio-KK_9DaPPmLz2AUQ&s=19
BREAKING: James O’Keefe REMOVED as CEO of Project Veritas
To be replaced by John Podesta or someone from Hamilton68?
Hunter Biden actually.
PENIS!
i was going to say Hunter Biden's penis
the enemies from without burrowed within and conducted the coup.
Classic marxist playbook
I look forward to the future Veritas pieces exposing everything ELSE except vaccine liars and corrupt libs. Those are now protected.
"VERITAS EXPOSE ON RAND PAUL!!! HE CLAIMS TO BE AN EYE DOCTOR BUT HE'S ONLY A NOT AN OPTICIAN!!! MERELY AN OPTHALMOLOGIST!!!" - 2024 Salon headline (automatically linked to by Jeff)
It'll be fun to see Salon get roasted when they run that, since Opticians aren't actually doctors, and aren't required to have formal education past a HS diploma/GED to enter the training/certification programs and only 21 of 50 states require licensing or registration for those looking to operate professionally in that job.
Eye can't believe it!
Facebook says my recent column about face masks is "missing context" and "could mislead people," based on an assessment by "independent fact checkers." That judgment and the analysis underlying it show how reflexive deference to government agencies distorts supposedly "independent" summaries of scientific evidence on controversial issues, especially issues related to COVID-19 control measures.
Had you written this article in 2020, 2021, or most of 2022, you probably would have been banned from the platform.
And Facebook the platform has placed editorial comments on your article. What does that make Facebook?
Crappy at moderation of misinformation.
Not purveyors of misinformation?
No enemies in the establishment, right Mike? As long as they keep it corporatist.
And he would be here agreeing with them in all cases but his.
Good old fascism, here again at the hands of cosmopolitans. Not that it was ever unfashionable, it just changed rhetoric.
That word sure gets thrown around a lot these days.
Facebook having crappy moderation is “fascism” now.
Facebook censoring it's users to please a government agency is...what?
Mikes dream.
Ya know ..... one could get pedantic and say that only Mussolini's party was fascist; it was not racial or anti-semite, just pro-Italy.
One could say that Hitler was a race-based collectivist and Communism is class-based collectivism.
In the end, they are all collectivists who dream of stealing from disfavored people to give to the favored people, and that redistribution requires force.
I like to illustrate the difference by saying that individualism can simulate collectivism with contracts, but collectivism cannot even tolerate individualism, let alone simulate it.
Where in Sullum's story above does it say that a government agency was involved?
Perhaps you think government is so kind and gentle that they told only Twitter what to do, not Facebook or Google or MicroSoft or Apple or anyone else.
If you ignore that Mark Zuckerberg interview on Rogan when he mentioned the FBI agents walking in and warning him about things he needed to watch out for and censor.
That’s pretty ironclad proof that the FBI coerced Facebook into tagging Sullum’s post, and it couldn’t have been Facebook’s own decision.
After losing on a generality, Mike moves the goalposts to a specific instance.
You do realize you're trying to handwave undeniable government censorship on a purportedly libertarian site, right Mike?
But don't dare call him a Democratic Party tribalist folks.
If anyone is curious what Zuck actually said to Joe Rogan, ATM’s retelling is not accurate:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62688532
How is it not accurate? Despite the weasely article tone and lying about Rogan the BBC recounting is the same as ATF’s.
“Zuckerberg told Rogan: “The background here is that the FBI came to us – some folks on our team – and was like ‘hey, just so you know, you should be on high alert. We thought there was a lot of Russian propaganda in the 2016 election, we have it on notice that basically there’s about to be some kind of dump that’s similar to that’.”
Anyway, I’m pretty sure that you cherrypicked that article Mike, because 1. it still tries desperately to throw shade on the laptops provenance, and 2. doesn’t mention all of Zuckerberg’s remarks on the subject.
Here’s what you wanted to leave out:
“We just kind of thought hey look, if the FBI, which I still view is a legitimate institution in this country, it’s a very professional law enforcement- they come to us and tell us that we need to be on guard about something then I want to take that seriously.”
Video clip: https://twitter.com/minds/status/1562927481945980928
Holy fuck, you are stupid--or really poor at this comment shit.
Yet in the other thread he claims everybody already knew government was talking to Twitter.
Maybe Mike is Sullum’s sock.
It’s hilarious how you give everyone but conservatives/right leaning libertarians the benefit of the doubt.
"According to Facebook, making these points "could mislead people." But in fact, it was the CDC that misled people by insisting that the case was closed on masks and mask mandates while citing impressive but empirically shaky estimates of their effectiveness.
The "independent fact checkers" on whom Facebook relies, who work for an organization called Health Feedback, give the game away by contradicting themselves. "Multiple studies show that face masks reduce the spread of COVID-19," their headline claims, echoing the CDC."
Facebook makes a bad "fact check" echoing the CDC position. Only if there is indisputable proof of collusion between the two is this a problem? Right.
Are we talking about whether it is a “problem”, which is vague, or whether it is or should be illegal?
Of course it is a problem that Facebook tagged Sullum’s post when it contained no misinformation. However, they have the right to make bad content moderation decisions.
That said government agency is paying them to do is what?
there should be zero moderation on any site. simply disallow any speech that is illegal (like threatening violence, defamation, etc.) and allow everything else. period, problem solved.
YouTube is following the FaceBook algorithm. I just got a 24-hour comment ban for violating some comment regulation that they won't tell me about. They're just arbitrary and capricious.
"The social media site slapped a warning on a column in which I criticized the CDC for exaggerating the evidence supporting mask mandates."
Here's one worse.
The social media site slapped a warning and then removed the fucking British Medical Journal for spreading "Misinformation".
The BMJ is the world's oldest and most prestigious medical journal. It's reading is a mandatory part of every doctors professional development.
But Facebook's idiot factchecker's called it a "blog" and published their analysis under the banner of “hoax-alert”.
What was the BMJ's crime? They published an article on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial.
Incidentally, Jeff of course supported the "fact"checkers here at the time.
Give Jeff a break. As a fat fuck he needs extra government-approved propaganda comfort.
A bunch of blue-haired marxist non-binary millennials with Harry potter tattoos sitting around fact-checking "the science" is how you get trust and integrity with a platform, doncha know?
The federalist is going to get banned again, for pretending an arrest is actual news.
https://thefederalist.com/2023/02/20/california-democrat-arrested-charged-with-mail-in-ballot-fraud/
Just looked and it isn't banned. And the story is there.
Reading comprehension isn't White Mike's superpower.
Not yet.
Still there!
https://twitter.com/LoganLancing/status/1627740618658091017?t=DntLpHm4JnipYmZ_YvHBEg&s=19
"The government would never switch you to all electric, all internet connected everything so they can shut you down in a heartbeat. That's a conspiracy theory."
[Link]
They already did.
Of course if masks actually did reduce infection they would simply create a bigger problem. If you are not exposed to infection you cannot develop natural immunity. Considering the fact that Covid 19 is not life threatening to over 99% of the population one could surmise that some of the remaining fraction of 1% would still be alive had we developed herd immunity earlier. Even the CDC now admits that natural immunity provides better protection than their "vaccines". These people don't just have blood on their hands. They're drenched in it.
Shackford cringes.
https://twitter.com/SethDillon/status/1627667349804396545
Jeff would have an aneurism.
An anatomy of the dying of the third largest city in the country.
https://johnkassnews.com/anatomy-of-my-departure/
I am the 4th generation of my family to live in Chicago. My dad grew up in Uptown and my mom on Alta Vista Terrace, before that area was called Wrigleyville. My mom’s side got pushed out of the old Greektown when Richard J. wanted Circle Campus and a highway, the other side was pushed out of Turkey when Ataturk didn’t want them there, so I guess I have refugee or Displaced Person (DP) in my blood.
We learned “The Chicago Way” at a young age. One election my dad (who worked 2 jobs his entire life) decided he was going to vote in the Republican Primary. If you recall back in the day, we used 55 gallon drums for garbage cans. Shortly after the election our garbage cans disappeared but not our neighbors.
The 90’s and 00’s were good in Chicago. Richard M. shined it up, planted flowers, lots of flowers and crime was down. What most didn’t realize was that he was cleaning it up by washing away the city’s foundation.
The state of Georgia had opened up, so we decided to take a vacation there for a week to get out from under the tyranny of Lightfoot and Pritzker, it was eye opening. Then the riots came to Chicago.
I went into an Apple store down here in Florida shortly after we moved. As I jaunted out into the sunny blue skies with my purchase, I realized it was the first time I ever walked out of an Apple store without my head on a swivel worried about getting mugged.
Facebook should just put in their terms of service that they're uninterested in the truth being shared on their platform, just in the name of honesty.
They should. I mean it's a freekin' place for your aunt to post photos of her cat.
You are a joke.
Remember folks, Mike swears he's a libertarian.
He does parrot the proggy line with a number of the writers so by that metric he's correct. Of course those same writers are SNC shills who endorse every extremist position of the Woketarian gospel so they might not be the best barometers.
anyone with a fakebook account is a fool. cancel today and have some integrity.
+1,000%
Facebook is the new MySpace.
"Laboratory experiments provide good reason to believe that masks, especially N95s, can reduce the risk that someone will be infected or infect other people."
When you go to that link, it is a study on how masks prevent the transmission of droplets through physics. It's not a study on rates of infection in actual people.
If we've learned anything during the pandemic, we've learned that respiratory diseases like Covid are not spread through droplets hitting your face. In fact, the whole mask fiasco is based on this faulty theory of disease transmission.
Hey, how dare you challenge the Science! that Sullum chooses to believe in?
That one sentence ruined the entire article.
When Yevgeny Zamyatin wrote in 1924, it was The Benefactor. When Ayn Rand wrote in 1937 it was the Council of Scholars. When Orwell wrote in 1948 it was Big Brother. Now that Jake Sullum is writing, it's Independent Fact-Checkers. Whatever became of "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Facebook is a private company. Nobody has a right to assemble or compel speech using its property.
But the government does.
We already know for certain that the FBI was contacting Facebook about censoring political stories, but look a Mike obfuscate.
Don't you dare say he's not a libertarian though.
Bake that fucking cake, though, right?!
I use it less and less. Once or twice a week.
The gestapo police is here….
And it’s founded in Nazi (National Socialist) – Agencies…
Who could’ve possibly guessed that one coming?
The CDC is an UN-Constitutional agency.
https://reason.com/2021/04/01/the-cdc-vs-the-constitution/
OK, now close the loop. You were wrong when you said there were no shadow bans. You were wrong when you cheered people being banned for "misinformation". You were wrong when you defended Facebook and their Truth Commission featuring such luminaries of leftist misinformation as the queen of Gamergate.
You guys want credibility on this topic? Do a complete mea culpa on why you participated for so long. Explain how you determined that all the stories that were promoted by the FBI disinformation teams were worthy of your fealty. Explain why you still buy into so many stories that they propagated, and still shy away from attempting to correct the injustices they have perpetrated.
Everyone knows he could crawl on his knees over broken glass and it wouldn't appease the likes of you.
Well, no, crawling over broken glass is just painful, and messy. We don't want pain. Or even abasement. We want an apology, or not even that -- just realize you (Sullum) was wrong on (these related topics) and work towards setting the story straight.
Sullum did good reporting on the Harding Street raid, and a number of other topics. Just apply that same skepticism for the official story to shadow bans and the FBI.
“Independent” … independent of what? “Fact” … they wouldn’t know a fact if it stared back at them from the pages of the Encyclopedia Galactica! “Checker” … this is sort of like the automatic grocery checker I use instead of the human ones at the store. They use some sort of narrative scanner to scan millions of posts per hour looking for anything that disagrees with the socialist narrative, slap a so-called warning on it (how could you object to a warning? I mean, what if it IS wrong? Let the readers make up their own minds, right?) and then auto-ban you if you’re not politically correct too many times. I mean, misleading information can harm people, right? Or at least cause them to run sobbing to their safe space …
Reason now whines. What happened to they are a private company and can do whatever they want? Oh, that was when others were getting warnings and bans!
"...do not necessarily wear masks properly or consistently..."
That should be counted as not wearing a mask.
The RCT's testing mask wearing are poorly designed. Masks work in groups because they reduce the viral load, and both the infected as well as the uninfected have to be wearing masks. Assigning masks randomly to individuals is going to fail. A study comparing one school not wearing masks to another where they continued wearing masks showed a reduction in infections in the group wearing masks.
https://time.com/6231516/universal-masking-in-school-works-new-data-shows-how-well/?xid=homepage
https://twitter.com/fperrywilson/status/1592302621284614144?s=20&t=mVQ6s2YBYatZqqgGYqQLFw
I wasn't misled, I know bullshit when I see it.
"Does the Cochrane review prove that masks are worthless in protecting people from COVID-19? No."
but anyone with a functioning brain knows that masks are worthless and would never wear one.
"According to Facebook, making these points "could mislead people." But in fact, it was the CDC that misled people"
because fakebook is an arm of the democrat party. their job is to uphold the narrative at any cost. and they're doing a damned good job.
One of the greatest deceptions fostered by the pandemic is the notion that "meta-analyses" or "review articles" are the gold standard of medicine.
It is impossible to merge the statistical results of one study with another. It is worth noting that the this review did not prove that masks don't work. It proved only that it is very difficult to construct a study methodology demonstrating how well, or poorly, they work.
They lied.
Deliberately.
Repeatedly.
Politically.
On both sides.
#defundCDC
I don't think it's hyperbole to say at this point that Mike is a horrible person.