Russian Propaganda Has Succeeded in Persuading Credulous Americans That It Poses a Grave Threat to Democracy
Alarmists are unfazed by the lack of evidence that "foreign influence campaigns" have affected public opinion or voting behavior.

A widely cited list of Twitter users who were described as "Russian bots" included "a bunch of legitimate right-leaning accounts," according to an internal 2018 email from Yoel Roth, then the social media platform's "trust & safety" chief. Roth thought the list, compiled by the Alliance for Securing Democracy (ASD), was "bullshit" but never said so publicly, apparently because of pushback from other Twitter employees.
That episode, which journalist Matt Taibbi revealed last week, exemplifies the hysteria about Russian propagandists disguised as Americans. Contrary to the overheated warnings about foreign election "interference" we have been hearing since 2016, even genuinely phony social media accounts pose a threat less worrisome than the panic they have provoked.
The ASD takes it for granted that the damage done by divisive or dishonest political speech depends on the speaker's nationality. When Americans comment on U.S. issues or candidates, no matter how ill-informed or misguided their opinions, they are participating in democracy. When Russians say the same things, they are undermining democracy.
That assumption seems dubious, and there is little evidence that Russians pretending to be Americans have had any discernible effect on public opinion or election outcomes. A Nature Communications study published last month casts further doubt on that claim.
The researchers used survey data to investigate the impact of "foreign influence accounts" on Twitter during the 2016 election campaign. They identified 786,634 posts from such accounts between April and November 2016, the vast majority of which were associated with Russia's Internet Research Agency (IRA).
The study found that "exposure to the Russian influence campaign was eclipsed by content from domestic news media and politicians," which was "at least an order of magnitude" more prevalent. "Exposure to Russian disinformation accounts was heavily concentrated," with 1 percent of survey respondents accounting for 70 percent of exposures.
The Twitter users who saw the most IRA posts "strongly identified as Republicans." The study found "no evidence of a meaningful relationship between exposure to posts from Russian foreign influence accounts and changes in attitudes, polarization, or voting behavior."
These findings are not surprising. As the researchers noted, "a large body of literature" indicates that political messages, regardless of the source or forum, have a "minimal" impact on voting. IRA messages accounted for a tiny share of political content on social media platforms in 2016, and they were not exactly sophisticated.
A Facebook ad traced to the IRA, for example, depicted an arm-wrestling match between Satan and Jesus. "If I win Clinton wins," Satan says. "Not if I can help it," Jesus replies.
In a 2018 New Yorker article explaining "How Russia Helped Swing the Election for Trump," Jane Mayer cited that absurd piece of agitprop to show how adept Russian operatives were at manipulating American opinion. But Politico reported that the ad—which targeted "people age 18 to 65+ interested in Christianity, Jesus, God, Ron Paul and media personalities such as Laura Ingraham, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly and Mike Savage, among other topics"—generated 71 impressions and 14 clicks.
New York Times reporter Steven Lee Myers, who last fall warned that Russia had "reactivate[d] its trolls and bots ahead of Tuesday's midterms," was likewise unfazed by the lameness of these efforts. Although the volume of Russian-sponsored messages was "much smaller" in 2022 than it was in 2016, Myers averred, it was more skillfully targeted, showing "how vulnerable the American political system remains to foreign manipulation."
Myers' chief example was Nora Berka, a pseudonymous Gab user with "more than 8,000 followers." While most of her posts had "little engagement," he reported, "a recent post about the F.B.I. received 43 responses and 11 replies, and was reposted 64 times."
Russian propaganda looks like a failure if it was supposed to "reshape U.S. politics" or "sow chaos," as the Times has claimed. But if the goal was persuading credulous journalists that "the American political system" cannot survive the likes of Nora Berka, the campaign has been a resounding success.
© Copyright 2023 by Creators Syndicate Inc.
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Democracy is two Austrian painter supporters and a Russian voting on when Operation Barbarossa will commence.
Don't be rushin' to judgement.
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Do you think you should be more concerned about Russian or US propaganda?
Not concerned about any propaganda.
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Clearly Russia. They helped Trump steal the election from Hillary. It was her turn!
I’m concerned with getting rid of neo nazi trash on the comments here. You know, the assholes who rave about the Holocaust not being real and spew anti semitic venom.
They need to go.
Well it’s obvious that you fuckwits are okay with your own government lying to you.
Hahaha
It’s a wonderful feeling to discern and share the truth with correctly applied logic and science and demonstrate every time that it can’t be refuted.
You lying swine. You demanded evidence, I gave you personal testimony, but because it contradicted your psychotic beliefs you screamed "liar" and insisted it didn't count. Then you called me a "Jew", as if I were and as if it were some sort of slur.
You’re the proven liar here.
Prove your claim by posting a link to our alleged debate and I’m sure I’ll have no problem refuting your lies anytime.
Or repeat the details of it and I’ll refute your lies line by line.
It’s on you to prove your claim fuckwit, and I expect you’ll cut and run as usual.
"...You’re the proven liar here..."
Remember White Indian, folks? That scum, like this one, would post lies, get busted for it, call the obvious evidence 'a lie' and shout "I WON!'
Nazi shit has been handed his ass every time he produces that arm-waving he calls "evidence" and still claims 'I WON!'
Fuck off and die, asshole.
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You’re a proven liar fuckwit.
I haven’t used a hat check which is the only way you’ll ever hand me mine.
If you think that you or anyone else has ever refuted anything I’ve said, describe it and post a link and I’ll show everyone where I have refuted it.
With white Indian fucks like you, that process needs to be repeated over and over again. I’m game.
You stand refuted you feeble minded fuckwit.
Remember White Indian, folks? That scum, like this one, would post lies, get busted for it, call the obvious evidence ‘a lie’ and shout “I WON!’
Nazi shit has been handed his ass every time he produces that arm-waving he calls “evidence” and still claims ‘I WON!’
Fuck off and die, asshole.
No, you misunderstood you feeble minded fuckwit.
I said that refuting bullshit needs to be repeated.
You’re just repeating bullshit that’s been refuted.
The lying wastes of skin talk big but cut and run like they always do.
I'm in a hurry so I'll be brief.
Fuck Off, Nazi!
Sounds like sour grapes from the lying waste of skin Kol Nidre boy.
Hahaha
And Freedom is the well-armed Brothers Bielski & Friends calling off the vote.
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Blaming blaming everything on Russia…on Russia. Well done Sullum.
Reasonisting at its purist.
He did putin that effort.
It is a terrible headline and lede. But the argument Sullum is actually making is that Russian Propaganda isn't so bad, because it doesn't seem effective. That may be true, but it is a complete distraction from the real story that broke last week: Political agents were libeling arguments and people as Russian Propaganda, and using the media and Big tech (who knew this was inaccurate, but remained silent).
It may be true that lefty the obsession with Russian Propaganda was wrong. But it is telling that Sullum cannot pause for a moment to talk about the fact that major information sources in America were conspiring to exploit that obsession with lies.
What article did _you_ read?
Youre still pushing the Russian hoax in the roundup thread. Maybe stay put of the conversation?
That was hilarious.
There's a lot more to this story that was left out (deliberately?) of this article.
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Where's White Mike and Tony to apologize for shitting up the comments for seven years by constntly regurgatating the ASD's Hamilton 68 garbage?
Tony 2 days ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"Perversely, one of the biggest shields that Taibbi, Greenwald, and Snowden have to protect themselves from accusations of being Russian assets is the sheer obviousness that they are Russian assets. Why would Russia do this so hamfistedly? But then think about how they’re waging war."
Shitbag's trying to win the straw-grasping competition.
55
^ THIS!
There, FTFY.
At fault here is the lying, deceptions, and propaganda that comes from Democrats, the MSM, and outfits like Reason.
Funny how he couldn't say that. It's also interesting how he ignores that the same propaganda bs was done for Bernie and Hillary, but somehow the Jesus and Satan arm wrestling meme is the only bit that matters. We're also supposed to ignore that similar shenanigans were going on in Ukraine involving coordination between democrats and elected officials there. It would be an interesting bit of information for a journalist to note when discussing this and Ukraine.
Does Sullum want a pat on the back for noticing 5 years after the fact that the whole Russian propaganda bullshit was always never an issue (especially for people claiming to be in favor of free speech.) I don't care to do the search, but I'm pretty sure that Sullum was one of the biggest cheerleaders for the Russian collusion narrative. If he was an honest person he would mention somehwere in this article that the US news media acts as a Democratic PAC and dwarfs anything the Russians could have gotten circulating. He might even in the same breath mention Comey trying to save Clinton with her classified documents/private server scandal (you would think that would be brought up more in the current news cycle.)
I swear, these lying propagandists expect everyone to be stupid and unable to remember anything that happened a week ago
If it was not for Rusdian memes, they would have to acknowledge that Hillary Clinton was a terrible, polarizing candidate to nominate for President, and about half the country despised her.
It's interesting that people resist accepting a similar reality regarding a former president threatening another run.
Math is interesting.
Maybe take a break from the totalitarian cock you're slobbering on and do some from the 2020 election, then get back to us.
Math is racist.
"It’s interesting that people resist accepting a similar reality regarding a former president threatening another run."
More interesting that TDS-addled shit-piles continue to embarrass themselves, TDS-addled shit-pile.
https://twitter.com/Jessmcorr/status/1620743350260469760?t=qwMSgVhxuYkA9ZDV5U6LSw&s=19
I always thought if people started dying in front of our eyes because of something the Government did, the masses would begin to distrust the Government. I was wrong. I was very wrong.
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It’s interesting that people resist accepting a similar reality regarding a former president threatening another run.
What 'former' president?
The incumbent president is seeking to unseat the pretender the junta has placed in the White House.
Even Trump wears a "47", not a "46"...
One of my customers was wearing a ball cap that said: "Cleanup on Aisle 46!"
🙂
Trump may be polarizing, but he's still one of the better candidates.
Trump is mostly polarizing because he threatens the power of totalitarians, corrupt politicians, and crony capitalists.
Are you talking about the same Trump that pardoned Steve Bannon after Bannon conned a bunch of Trump supporters out of money to fund a border wall? Are we talking about the same Trump of Trump University? Are we talking about the same Trump of the Trump Foundation?
I don't think Trump is the answer to corruption.
You don't think, period.
That's a pathetic response.
Look in the mirror.
“I don’t care to do the search, but I’m pretty sure…”
You could have stopped there.
Reason has been saying that Russian propaganda is lame and ineffective for years now.
What Russian propaganda?
Twitter found almost none on its site despite what you've heard in the media.
The Russian propaganda his democrat masters told him to fear.
"Reason has been saying that Russian propaganda is lame and ineffective for years now."
But what they should have been saying is that most Russian propaganda wasn't real and was cooked up by the Hillary campaign, the Democratic Party and NeverTrumpers.
Also, you've were totally acting like it was real and effective for years now.
Yet... this headline.
Save her? Isn't that the same Comey who "probably" swung the election for Trump, with his election-eve statements about Clinton?
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-comey-letter-probably-cost-clinton-the-election/
What cost Hillary the election is that she is a lying bitch with unpopular opinions about multiple issues. Not to mention her silly statements about things like bleachbits.
Voters voted against Hillary, not for Trump. They also voted against Trump, not for Biden.
The idea that Comey cost her the election is fucking laughable at best. If someone actually believes that, they aren’t a serious person.
"expect everyone to be stupid and unable to remember anything that happened a week ago"
Out Teacher's Unions are working very hard to sabotage our educational system, to make that statement accurate.
This is not about Russia, ultimately. The Democrats find it useful to blame foreign interference in elections as a rationale to suppress the speech of their opponents, as well as characterizing most anything they do not like as "far right" or "alt right". Like characterizing listening to a conservative orthodox Jew is somehow the beginning of a perverse yellow brick road to Naziism.
The Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday released the final report on its investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election, finding numerous contacts between the Trump campaign and Moscow posed a "grave" counterintelligence threat.
"We found irrefutable evidence of Russian meddling," Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., acting chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said in a statement, directly refuting President Donald Trump's repeated assertions that Russian interference was a "hoax" perpetrated by Democrats.
The committee, however, did not find any evidence of a coordinated scheme between the Trump campaign and Moscow, Rubio said.
For 70 years, the American left dismissed as “Cold War paranoia” all concerns About Soviet spies in the American government, Soviet influence in the print and entertainment media, and other Soviet efforts to infiltrate our government, and destabilize politics. They denied that Alger hiss and harry dexter white were Soviet spies, annd awarded prizes to Soviet apologists like Walter Duranty. Yet a handful of silly social media posts viewed by tens of people have somehow become an existential threat to democracy.
We were always at war with Eurasia.
Because there's a big difference between Soviet and Russian.
The Soviets here have taken over but are still pissed they were cast out.
Not sure who you are calling "Soviet", considering there is one rather prominent Russian who is currently trying very hard to rebuild the Soviet Empire.
So far the main difference seems to be that we never funded a proxy war to keep the USSR from taking control of Crimea.
It's those damn Rooskies again!
Rooskies don't take a shit without a plan, son.
Thankfully, Alec Baldwin did not shoot and kill any of the cast or crew during the making of that film.
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Interesting that you publish this nonsense the same day that this drops from the Columbia journalism review. A complete post mortem on the Russia hoax reporting.
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1620160070997745679
Jacob cannot accept his culpability in lying to Americans in his role as a willing DNC propagandist. Either that or he’s projecting when he talks about the credulous rubes duped by any of this, or both.
Jacob cannot fathom why journalism is less trusted than politicians or used car dealers as he pushes narrative lie after narrative lie, often lies so transparent they cannot stand a moment without active suspension of reasoning and disbelief by the reader.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/liberal-columbia-journal-review-offers-scathing-indictment-of-new-york-times-russiagate-coverage/ar-AA16WsEO?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e53fbe48f06e4ffbaf7481fa6efa15d3
""Despite Baquet's expressed desire for details to be included in the report and to point out whether contacts were considered "innocent" or "sinister," the published details were vague and few. Noted Gerth, "The piece did contain a disclaimer up high, noting that their sources, 'so far,' had seen ‘no evidence’ of the Trump campaign colluding with the Russians," adding "But in the next paragraph it reported anonymous officials being 'alarmed' about the supposed Russian-Trump contacts because they occurred while Trump made his comments in Florida in July 2016 wondering whether Russia could find Hillary’s missing emails."
"The story said ‘the FBI declined to comment.’ In fact, the FBI was quickly ripping the piece to shreds, in a series of annotated comments by Strzok, who managed the Russia case," Gerth wrote. "His analysis, prepared for his bosses, found numerous inaccuracies, including a categorical refutation of the lead and headline; 'we are unaware,' Strzok wrote, ‘of ANY Trump advisers engaging in conversations with Russian intelligence officials.’ Comey immediately checked with other intelligence agencies to see if they had any such evidence, came up empty, and relayed his findings to a closed Senate briefing, according to testimony at a Senate hearing months later."""
RUSSIA HACKED THE ELECTION was Democrats' way of convincing their dumbest supporters that the party did not, in fact, royally screw up by nominating one of the worst candidates ever in 2016.
And now that the base of the allegedly anti-military-industrial-complex party (and I stress "allegedly"!) has been trained to hate Russia, they don't even have to pretend to be skeptical about spending billions on an indefinite proxy war to hurt Putin. Just slap that Ukraine flag all over your Twitter and keep the money flowing! 🙂
To be fair both parties nominated horrible candidates in 2016.
Correct. As soon as I retired the OBL sock I acknowledged Trump was awful too. 2016 was best understood as Clinton missing a layup rather than Trump doing anything special.
Preach it, AWFL sista!
I know they (government and tech) lied about a bunch of shit from 2015 onward, but they were totes truthful about the 2020 election. Nothing to see here except a bad candidate!
Don't anybody dare say otherwise, because it hurts the eunuchs' and AWFLs' feelz. Just trust the government like they do!
What this tells me is you're a vapid and shallow person who cares more about projecting decorum towards those who hate you than standing up for yourself. At the same time it tells me you'd prefer wars and actively destructive policy built on hatred of half the electorate and moving toward peace. Stupid is as stupid does I guess, but go on with that narrative that Biden was elected as the most popular candidate of all time if it helps you with your TDS and willful blindness to the corruption in your face.
That's really the best way to put it.
It was actually impressive just how bad both parties' candidates were in 2016 and 2020.
+111
And 2020.
1) Boaf sidez
^this
The main thing that was "horrible" about Trump was that he had little political experience and had few connections inside the beltway.
Policy-wise he was a centrist, and in terms of accomplishments, he was one of the best presidents in recent decades.
I agree that Trump was basically a centrist and had decent policy accomplishments, but the main thing you claim that was “horrible” about Trump isn’t remotely correct. His behavior, his lies, his narcissism, his lack of knowledge, his erraticness, his lack of leadership quality, and his causticness were his problems.
All those things are true for Bush, Obama, and even more so Biden.
The only difference is how the media covered for those guys, and the people pulling their strings.
It's not even a close race.
You’re right, Bush and Obama at least were able to project an image of being able to have a beer with them.
Biden has all those qualities of Trump, but with the added baggage of being in DC for fifty years and authoring some of the most authoritarian and awful laws.
Yeah, that's the image the projected. In actual fact, they are not pleasant people.
While you may dislike Trump's public persona, by all reports he is actually nice to be around socially.
Not even remotely. Please show me where Bush, Obama, or Biden called the porn star that they slept with right after their wives gave birth to their son and who they required to sign an NDA “horseface” on twitter (or any public forum) right after the confirmation of their SCOTUS appointment?
I have no love for Bush, Obama, or Biden, but their levels of lies, behavior, narcissism, lack of knowledge, erraticness, and causticness aren’t remotely in the same league as Trump.
These weird allegiance to a man who has proven over and over again his lack of competence to be president has to be one of the most fascinating sociological situations that has ever existed.
Yes, on most of those points, they are far worse.
I have no “allegiance” to Trump. I didn’t vote for him and I hope he doesn’t run again. In fact, I voted for Obama first time around when he seemed to be the better choice compared to McCain. I came to despise Obama and Biden because of their presidency: they broke pretty much every campaign promise and turned out to be an arrogant, race baiting, incompetent fools. Instead of Trump's bragging, their lies were deep and substantive. But the worst was how they ran the country into the ground and enriched their elite friends.
No, they aren't worse. Good lord.
I agree with you on Obama and Biden. And I voted for Trump. But I don't gaslight myself about Trump because of my dislike for Obama and Biden.
Trump pursued policy that I agree with. And that's part of my problem is that good policy is now tied to a terrible man. He is not a good person. He's just as corrupt as any swamp creature. Just because he genuflects to the common man in order to gain their allegiance doesn't make him a common man. He basically uses the common man to better himself. That's no better than anyone else.
"...And that’s part of my problem is that good policy is now tied to a terrible man..."
Aw, poor TDS-addled shit pile longs for his daddy...
And you can’t even fathom how people could not give a shit about “causticness” if he had “decent policy accomplishments”?
What is the benefit of being lied to by a nice guy?
But TV said he was boorish, so AWFLs and eunuchs think he was just the worst
Man, it wasn't simply what TV said. It was clear from simply watching and listening to Trump himself.
At some point, you have got to give Trump some level of agency rather than constantly portraying him as this innocent, helpless victim.
Yes, Trump was boorish (=uncultured, clumsy). That's because he wasn't an experienced politician and because he spoke like ordinary people, part of why so many people liked him. There's a good deal of New Yorker in him too, which only deepens that impression.
That is as opposed to Obama and Biden, who can spout the biggest platitudes and lies, yet still make it sound significant. That no doubt impresses people like you.
Please, this “Trump acts like the common man” schtick is so tired anymore. The common man has better behavior than Trump. It doesn’t require special political savvy to know not to call the porn star you slept with “horseface” on twitter or McConnell’s wife Coco Chow Chow.
Trump is just an erratic, low intelligence, grifting, narcissist of the highest order. I mean, even the common man voted against him.
I didn't say he "acted" like an ordinary man, I said he "spoke" like ordinary people.
And yet, he and his presidency were still better than the supercilious, incompetent, dishonest psychopaths that preceded him.
Speaking like someone is acting like someone. Please don't with pedantic rebuttals.
And yet, his presidency was so good that everything he accomplished is lost because he was so hated and could never gain support of a majority of this country.
Stumbling into good policy because you don't know any better only to flush that away because of atrocious and incompetent behavior doesn't make one a good president.
Great point about how little Trump understood politics. I view most of what the MSM called Trump's lies as what I call bullshit. No question Trump from the get go spoke more like a normal person (one reason many peeps liked him) than any pol I can ever remember.
Another thing about Trump often overlooked is that he was very high energy compared to both Hillary and Brandon. He never fainted in public and had to be dragged to a limo like a sack of potatoes or never tried to shake hands with the invisible man .
Not saying he was not a loud mouth braggart who treated women like disposable toys and maybe even more importantly led the league in mean tweets but on a policy front he did plenty of good.
It amazes me how many can see the obvious excuse making by dems for Clinton's loss, but take Trump's loss-excuse hook, line and sinker.
Both are sore narcissistic losers that probably cannot even conceive of the notion they may have actually lost.
At least 6 years later, we seem to be reaching the tipping point where even confirmation bias cannot stand in the face of Clinton's claim. 4 years to go for Trump?
Explain the math.
Or are you the type of eunuch who truly believes Joe Biden is the most popular candidate ever, despite winning fewer counties than Hillary?
Not to mention losing both Ohio and Florida, winning Miami-Dade County by kless than 10 points, actually losing a county in south Texas that last voted Republican in 1920?
Counties don't vote. People do. More people live in urban counties and the US population is becoming more urban. More than half of the country's population lives in less than 5% percent of counties. Likewise the country is becoming more geopolitically divided: urban-blue and rural-red. All of this adds up to more dem votes from fewer counties and less rep votes from more counties.
Also the US population is ever-rising.
I can't imagine being as trusting of the media, tech, and government as you are.
How many boosters are you up to?
Because here we have Quicktown Brix saying he/she 100% believes the vote totals reported from some of the most corrupt locales that have ever existed, despite the glaring inconsistencies between official final results and the underlying data.
QB truly believes Joe "basement" Biden was the most popular presidential candidate in US history...
Forget all the lies about covid, Russia, Ukraine, domestic spying, censorship, etc... the 2020 election was totes honest and legitimate!
"I can’t imagine being as trusting of the media, tech, and government as you are.
How many boosters are you up to?"
1 booster, the minimum required for me to not get fired.
"Because here we have Quicktown Brix saying he/she"
He
"QB truly believes Joe “basement” Biden was the most popular presidential candidate in US history…
QB... I like it. Where does this "most popular" bullshit come from. He barely cracked 50%...that's percent...PERCENT. He ran in the presidential election at the highest historical population with an unusually high turnout likely due to the divisiveness of Trump and the ease of mail-in voting.
"the 2020 election was totes honest and legitimate!"
Not "totes," I'm just arguing vote was not stolen by voter fraud. I agree that lies and censorship contributed to how people voted. The whole Hunter's laptop situation was egregious. You could convince me Biden only won because of mail-in voting, but that was legal.
… not stolen by voter fraud.
Possibly true, Most likely stolen by voter counter fraud.
Not to mention all the illegal 11th hour court rulings in key states.
How are those Dominion lawsuits going, anyway?
"He ran in the presidential election at the highest historical population with an unusually high turnout likely due to the divisiveness of Trump and the ease of mail-in voting."
Literally the Party line.
You mean facts?
It comes from the fact Biden supposedly had more than 80 million voters vote for him, more than Obama or any other president before him.
The divisiveness was a result of media propaganda, as Trump's actual policies were/are centrist.
And the high voter "turnout" wasn't just the result of mail-in voting alone, it was the result of illegal changes to voting procedures, reduced verification requirements, ballot harvesting, selective funding of election infrastructure, and other policies that are incompatible with fair elections.
All done so perfectly, it was completely immune from legal challenge!
Except all those changes that have been ruled unconstitutional….
Not at all. Many of the actions were determined by courts of law to be illegal, they simply didn't have a remedy.
Counties don’t vote. People do.
Yes.
And in order to get the vote totals that are claimed for Biden, based on the population of the counties he won would have required a mass migration of epic proportions.
And we know that didn't happen because many of the places Biden 'won' were suffering a LOSS of population.
Do The Math.
I did this math with #’s from the US census dept. Biden won counties account for a population of about 198 million people. Trump won counties account for about 130 million.
I guess we had a migration of epic proportions?
Edit to add: And I hate Biden, but I seek the truth even when unpleasant. Republicans should too or they'll continue to lose.
It's the old cliché of my conspiracy theories are correct and prescient, your conspiracy theories are crazy and stupid.
All presidents are narcissists; it goes with the job.
Clinton is an incompetent, left-wing radical with a sordid history and a personality that is widely loathed. That's why she lost. There is no mystery about it.
Trump was a centrist who accomplished a lot in his presidency and has a personality that appeals to many people. That's why it is odd that he lost to someone with the IQ of a potted plant, a long history of substantive lies and corruption, and a long history of policy failures.
And whether you believe there was anything illegal going on in the election, it is clear that Biden couldn't have won without a lot of help from the US government and propaganda and lies from the MSM.
"and has a personality that appeals to many people"
WOW
"And whether you believe there was anything illegal going on in the election, it is clear that Biden couldn’t have won without a lot of help from the US government and propaganda and lies from the MSM."
No arguments here.
There were so many things wrong with the 2020 presidential election. In multiple states. If you can’t see that, you’re either spectacularly obtuse, or in the tank for the democrats.
Your pick.
So, either the election was stolen from Trump or you're a Democrat? Those are the two choices? There aren't any other possibilities?
Fuck off and die, asshole. Make the world a better place.
Yawn.
...in the tank...."
Now we've come full circle from my original comment.
Really? That surprises you? Many people actually despise the elites running this country. Trump poked fun at them in a plain spoken way. And, yes, many voters like that.
People like Hillary, Obama, and Biden have practiced very hard to appear learned and well-spoken, but they are really liars and dullards. But, apparently, 80 million people are easily fooled. Well, looking at America's waist lines, personal debt, and propensity to buy snake oil, that shouldn't surprise anybody.
"Really? That surprises you?
It surprises me as a defense that Trump did not lose. He offends way more people than he appeals to personality-wise. Most of my friends and family are Trump supporters and almost all say he's an asshole, but better than Hillary some variant of that. Any non-conservative I know thinks he is absolutely repulsive.
I'll admit, I found his lack of political correctness very refreshing, but still found his bravado repulsive.
I can see why, but that's a difference in style.
Obama and Biden were dishonest and incompetent to the core, and camouflaged their failures with a slick exterior.
Yeah, no. Trump has one of the most repulsive personalities in modern times for a presidential candidate and president. He was able to grab the allegiance of many, but not nearly a majority. He was never able to appeal to the majority of people. His behavior and near incompetence overshadowed any policy achievements he made.
He lost to a potted plant because he couldn't not stop shooting himself in the foot. When your political opponent is destroying themselves, stay out of the way; and that's what Biden did.
Trump's loss is on Trump. Heck, Repubs did quite well in 2020, only Trump didn't. It shows that the public liked what Repubs were selling, but did not like Trump the man.
There were wrongs that happened in the election, there is no doubt. But all these wrongs could have been overcome (or not even come to pass) if Trump was even the slightest bit of a quality candidate.
Trump lost because of Trump, that's the reality of it. And, ironically, once that fact is learned, a better opposition to the modern left can be found.
Oh no, that crown goes to Hillary, Obama and Biden, absolutely reprehensible people. But their slick presentation with a lot of media propaganda fools people like you.
In every respect, he was a "better quality candidate" than the corrupt, racist, plagiarist liar that actually got elected.
After the character assassination that the media committed, that is hardly surprising. And this is nothing new: the media have been painting every Republican candidate over the last couple of decades as a racist, fascist, and totalitarian, including the milquetoast Mitt Romney. And fools like you fall for it ever single time.
So, Trump is just not as slick as the others? I won’t necessarily disagree in that regard. He's not smart enough to be.
But he wasn’t the better candidate, otherwise he would have won.
And again, the public could see who Trump is for themselves. Yes, the media played it up, but 80% of it was within Trump’s ability to control. He is a master at shooting himself in the foot.
Like Charles CW Cooke has asked, is there a point where you actually blame Trump for his failures and ask him to stop making you defend him constantly?
What "failures" should I blame him for? Trump's presidency was the best in the past few decades: no new wars, deregulation, foreign policy successes, attempts to curb illegal migration, renegotiating NAFTA, etc.
American voters are greedy fools. But choices have consequences, and the consequences won't be good, in particular for younger generations. I will retire some place nice.
If you can't see his failures, you're not approaching the subject of Trump from a genuine position.
And as to his accomplishments, his foreign policy in the Middle East was spot on. he slowed down regulation (which is good), but he didn't deregulate anything. No new wars but he bombed Syria and failed to get out of Afghanistan. He attempted to curb illegal immigration, but conducted it so poorly that nothing was actually accomplished. The USMCA was a good accomplishment.
The election was heavily compromised. Only an idiot or a traitor could think otherwise.
In this asshole's case, abysmal stupidity is more than evident and sufficient.
If you're the mark of intelligence, then I take pride in not being like you.
Pathetic piece of TDS-addled shit couldn't recognize "intelligence"; fuck off and die.
More wonderful eloquence.
No, people who don't have weird tribal allegiances also can think otherwise.
"Yeah, no. Trump has one of the most repulsive personalities in modern times for a presidential candidate and president..."
Piss off and die, TDS-addled pile of shit.
Regardless of his actions (the best POTUS in the last century), adolescent fucks like you focused on his 'icky personality, doncha know' and gave us Biden.
Stuff your TDS up your ass; your head is begging for company.
And yet I voted for him twice.
So, thanks for once again spewing you mindless retorts.
They're not 'Russian' because they are 'Russian'.
They are 'Russian' so the prosecution of them is justified.
It might upset the justice system or the people to find out US Citizens who are against the Democratic National Sozialist(Nazi)-Empire building tactics were being censored and prosecuted by the Gestapo police. So they have to be 'Russian'.
It would be soooooooo easy for mainstream social media to tack a Nation-IP location on each account. Just like Ebay has done. But a solution isn't possible when the problem *IS* the POWER tool.
As it is with everything Democrats do. They INVENT the problem to gain the POWER. They aren't really about any solutions at all; except how much POWER they can obtain.
This IP flagging is trivially easily to bypass.
I'd be happy if I could simply block Europeans and Canadians on social media. Most of them aren't going to bother to lie about their location.
" . . . and there is little evidence that Russians pretending to be Americans have had any discernible effect on public opinion or election outcomes."
But there is millions of dollars of investigation that Americans pretending to be Russians did have a discernible effect on public opinion or election outcomes.
Russian propaganda has succeeded in persuading credulous Americans that It poses a grave threat to democracy . So Sullum is admitting what some of us have known all along? That the NYT and WaPo and CNN and MSNBC and the DNC are Russian bots? It's not "Russian" propaganda that has won the day, it's Leftist propaganda about Russian propaganda. Hell, I'm not on Twitter or Facebook and I don't even speak Russian, but I've been bombarded by propaganda about Russia for 6 damn years. And the latest is we need to nuke Russia to save the planet from a 1.5 degree temperature rise over the next century? Give me a fucking break - the Russians ain't got shit on our own home-grown commies.
Correct.
We even have eunuchs and AWFLs in this very thread trying to draw equivalence between the ridiculous, always obvious, hoax of "Russian interference" and a subsequent election result entirely inconsistent with the underlying data.
"I can't believe people bought the Russian propaganda excuse from the same people who ran such a clean campaign in 2020 that was certainly a legitimate result!"
The Russia propaganda was a scam. Every aspect seems to have the hands of a DNC operator involved. Even Twitter staff didn't believe what they were being told. Yet Reason wants to try to hang on the best they can instead of calling it for what it is.
Hillary said Trump was connected to the Russians during the debate because that was part of their plan.
Sullum and plenty of other TDS-addled shits spent some serious effort trying to convince the rest of us that 'risski propaganda' put Trump in office; short-term memory loss?
JFC, Sullum! For 5 years, political operatives used technojargon to claim proof of a Russian propaganda program THAT DIDN'T EXIST. Not people with bad views. Not people who were misled. They accused their speech of being tools of a foreign power. And it is clear now that they were wrong, and that they likely knew they were wrong. *And* it is clear that the media and Big Tech (including Twitter) knew these were lies, and declined to say so publicly.
Again: The recent revelation is that big tech and media were complicit in libeling hundreds of people, and *falsely* attributing their arguments to Russian propaganda when they could have publicly disavowed it. And Sullum’s take is, “So what if they were Russian bots!”
Don’t get me wrong- that is a stance people ought to have been taking all along. But making that argument now distracts from the much bigger scandal- that these people weren’t even Russian bots or propagandists and an entire industry was conspiring to libel them.
McCarthy is reviled not just because he was persecuting people for what should have been constitutionally protected speech. He was also reviled because his theatrical dragnet hearings singled out people who were NOT communists, and used the mere accusations to ruin their lives, and the lives of people who associated with them (also constitutionally protected). Focusing on the right to be communist, without also condemning the evil of these show trials would be a grave disservice, just as it is here.
proof of a Russian propaganda program THAT DIDN’T EXIST. Not people with bad views. Not people who were misled. They accused their speech of being tools of a foreign power. And it is clear now that they were wrong
Except of course that the person who funded the propaganda program HAS OVERTLY ADMITTED IT - We have interfered [in US elections], we are interfering and we will continue to interfere. Carefully, accurately, surgically and in our own way, as we know how to do Yevgeny Prigozhin of 'Concord Catering' and Wagner Group.
So the only question is - ok well who exactly did the propaganda on THIS side of the Atlantic? Which of course is EXACTLY the purpose of the propaganda. What really happened? What didnt? Are they the propagandist (the one engaging in the hybrid warfare?) or the useful idiot?
Except of course that the person who funded the propaganda program HAS OVERTLY ADMITTED IT – We have interfered [in US elections], we are interfering and we will continue to interfere. Carefully, accurately, surgically and in our own way, as we know how to do Yevgeny Prigozhin of ‘Concord Catering’ and Wagner Group.
Can you name a bloc of information, or particular messaging that can be found in popular media that came from the Wagner group? For instance, can you tie a direct link from Tulsi Gabbard's debate performance to the Wagner group? Can you link Bernie Sanders GIF images riding rainbow unicorns to the Wagner group?
For four years we were told by various now-debunked deep-state operatives and mainstream media hacks that any information that questioned establishment narratives which caused these hacks to get ratio'd on social media was a "source of Russian propaganda/disinformation" including but not limited to the Hunter Biden laptop. So help us sort out what... EXACT messages were Russian propaganda, with receipts in hand.
Here’s the 2018 – that’s Trump era – Justice Department indictment of 13 Russians and 3 Russian companies.
12 of the Russians were accused of working for the 3 companies (Internet Research Agency, Concord Catering, Concord Management Consulting). The 13th was Prigozhin accused of funding and creating those three companies.
Are you looking for user accounts with names similar to those who post here? Or maybe an example - a Twitter account called Tennessee_GOP (@TEN_GOP) with 100,000 followers?
“Here’s the 2018 – that’s Trump era – Justice Department indictment of 13 Russians and 3 Russian companies…”
Noted that you didn't answer the question; no suprise.
And this “Trump era” DoJ which was investigating Trump based on obvious lies?
""https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/16/russia-election-justice-department-132875#:~:text=U.S.%20District%20Court%20Judge%20Dabney%20Friedrich%2C%20a%20Trump,evidence%20of%20the%20alleged%20Russian%20tampering%20is%20weak.""
“The government has concluded that further proceedings as to Concord, a Russian company with no presence in the United States and no exposure to meaningful punishment in the event of a conviction, promotes neither the interests of justice nor the nation’s security,” prosecutors wrote.
One expert on classified information said Monday that the belated acknowledgment by the prosecution was jarring.
“It’s a bit surprising that prosecutors would make this claim so late in the proceeding. It’s something they ought to have realized (and may have) months ago or longer,” said Steven Aftergood of the Federation of American Scientists. “Prosecutors will want to do a postmortem to understand how they got themselves in this position, and how they can avoid similar missteps in the future.”""
The THREE companies indicted are all shells created funded and owned by Prigozhin. The only reason Concord is mentioned in the indictment is because that's the one where the funding can be directly tied to Prigozhin - in 2018 - and where funding can be tied to IRA.
Internet Research Agency (IRA) is the one directly tied to the interference. And once Prigzhin can be tied directly to IRA with enough evidence in court to back it up, then there is no reason to include Concord. Which is apparently exactly what happened. It doesn't 'weaken' any case. It merely ties it even more closely and directly to Prigozhin.
You people are always linking to journalists or Twitter or other BS or third-hand sources. Read the fucking indictment if you want to see why the particular defendents are included.
What propaganda did they produce specifically?
I'm not arguing that none existed.
I am arguing that the propaganda by democrats affected US citizens far, far, far more than anything the Russians actually did.
The greatest risk to democracy is not the Russian propaganda, but the democrat propaganda.
Indictments are not convictions. I know that concept was muddled for some people in the last 6 years.
We have seen proof that a dem led group was pushing the social media to believe the Russian propaganda was greater than it was.
What examples can you give of the Russian's work?
Indictments are not convictions.
No but they are detailed public accumulations of pre-trial evidence. Confessions - especially public and spontaneous taped ones - as happened with Prigozhin a couple months ago and quoted here are very powerful additions to said evidence that lead to - - convictions.
What examples can you give of the Russian’s work?
Well golly. I linked to the freaking indictment. Maybe you should READ IT.
We have seen proof that a dem led group was pushing the social media to believe the Russian propaganda was greater than it was.
No you haven't. You haven't even seen a grand jury assess whatever you think you've seen constitute sufficent 'proof' for whatever you think you've seen so that it can, in a legal setting, be 'proven' beyond-some-just-indictment standard to produce a conviction.
What you've actually seen is articles from agenda-following journalists about an 'investigation' (that is almost certainly not objective or thorough enough to ever be introduced as evidence to support an indictment) conducted by a massively partisan owner of whatever is being called 'evidence'. Said owner also profiting by click-baiting that 'evidence' through the owners social media platform. Even better - evidence that confirms your own pre-existing biases and narratives.
I'm not saying there's nothing there. I'm saying that what you've seen, really, is a DeRp bedtime story that creates a nice safe space for you. Not 'proof' of anything. But hey - beddy bye.
"" I’m saying that what you’ve seen, really, is a DeRp bedtime story that creates a nice safe space for you.""
What I've seen is actual emails between Twitter staff. Why is that a bedtime story?
The most funny thing of all is that I'm not denying Russians would attempt to interfere. That's part of what countries do.
By calling what I have been saying a "bedtime story" you are denying what we learned from the Twitter emails.
Im not denying whatever may or may not be in those Twitter files. Or a story they are telling.
Im saying the documents, their ownership, the process of selecting them, and of publicizing them - do not remotely qualify as proof of anything. And proof is the word you used - and freaking pretended that that 'proof' is more rigorous than even the ham sandwich of an indictment.
The Twitter files are simply a narrative. A bedtime story. That comforts you.
Is this what you do? When info comes out that goes against your desired narrative, you just call it a bedtime story by agenda-following journalists.
Jesus, you are leading the pack for cognitive dissonance, that's for sure.
""The Twitter files are simply a narrative. A bedtime story. That comforts you.""
Wow.
If Cohen had emails with Trump saying Trump wanted to do x. You would call that proof right? I mean, even a prosecutor might have those emails referenced in an indictment to use as proof at trial.
The indictment itself is not more proof than the items referenced in the indictment. You know, things like emails.
If Cohen had emails with Trump saying Trump wanted to do x. You would call that proof right?
Not even remotely
I mean, even a prosecutor might have those emails referenced in an indictment to use as proof at trial.
They might want to. But no prosecutor is gonna use the story constructed from those emails because they can never remotely qualify as evidence. They were journalism.
The indictment itself is not more proof than the items referenced in the indictment. You know, things like emails.
Yeesh. You seem to be saying that an indictment of Nixon for Watergate could have occurred based SOLELY on WaPo articles. That is not how 'proof' works. Even if it is exactly how bedtime storytelling works.
So the usual moronic commenters want Nixon convicted about Watergate purely on WaPo generated articles.
What's funny about the difference between that era and this is the cast of characters:
Washington Post played by Twitter
Katherine Graham played by Elon Musk
Ben Bradlee played by Elon Musk
Deep Throat played by Elon Musk
Woodward played by Taibbi
Bernstein played by Weiss
Nixon played by the Democratic Party
Watergate played by the White House
President's Men played by Twitter 'content moderation' employees, ASD, Hamilton 69, etc
""You seem to be saying that an indictment of Nixon for Watergate could have occurred based SOLELY on WaPo articles. ""
No I'm not. If the WaPo article showed emails of correspondence, then those emails could be evidence. It's not about the article or messenger. I'm not sure why you are not understanding that.
So, failing indictments is your response? Indictments that when challenged got dismissed? Indictments that were clearly propaganda in and of themselves?
It’s like leaking info to the press, the press writing about that info in a story, then taking that story and using it as the basis for an investigation. It’s simply self serving with no substance.
There is no 'failing indictment'. It is still in place for him and the 12 other Russians and 1 company in the original indictment.
You mean, the indictments that have no defendant are still in place. The indictment when the defendant showed up was dismissed because the government could not meet its burden of proof.
Sorry, random, inconsequential indictments issued because they believed no one would show up to challenge them are as worthless as the paper they are written on.
The government had the chance to prove its case, it chose not to.
the indictments that have no defendant are still in place. The indictment when the defendant showed up was dismissed because the government could not meet its burden of proof.
WTF does that even mean? The accused are in Russia (or Bachmut). They didn’t ‘show up’ like some secret Zoom call. If they show up (yes unlikely), things will be resolved via a trial (highly public) where they become defendants.
""So the only question is – ok well who exactly did the propaganda on THIS side of the Atlantic?""
Follow the money?
Clinton campaign paid for the Steele dossier.
Clinton campaign paid for the information about Alfa bank.
Who did it benefit?
Those attacking Trump.
Hamilton 68 was the group pushing a false narrative to Twitter. Who belongs to that group? Who funds that group?
"‘Concord Catering’ and Wagner Group."
Yeah, Russian mercenaries in the Donbas were the ones behind it all and not the ASD.
FFS, the lies you people have to tell yourselves to keep your other lies alive is incredible.
""So the only question is – ok well who exactly did the propaganda on THIS side of the Atlantic? Which of course is EXACTLY the purpose of the propaganda. What really happened? What didnt? Are they the propagandist (the one engaging in the hybrid warfare?) or the useful idiot?"""
The Democrat propaganda about Russians and Trump was far more present and effective than what little Russian propaganda there really was.
What Russian propaganda do you know people fell for?
I can say for a fact that I know many people who fell for the democrat propaganda of the Hunter laptop was disinformation story.
What Russian propaganda do you know people fell for?
How about any content from a Twitter account called Tennessee_GOP (@TEN_GOP) with 100,000 followers then? - including one example in the indictment of that account twitting about the North Carolina GOP investigating the election for voter fraud. ALL Russian propaganda. None of it needs to be true since that account was a fake account set up by an employee of the St Petersburg troll farm. ALL content that was shared from there was cleanly laundered and mostly certainly 'fell for' - through all degrees of sharing.
You people are being so fucking obtuse. Useful idiots though.
You realize, only the most ardent of tribalists are arguing that Russian action had even the slightest sway in the election, right?
I mean, one twitter account with 100,000 followers (before bots were eliminated by the Musk takeover) is so minimally meaningful that it’s comical to assert as an example.
When casting about people being obtuse, you should probably be aware that defending an almost universally debunked narrative is the pinnacle of obtuseness.
It was never intended to sway an election. The link that overt linked to showed that the target audience of the 'Russian election interference' was overwhelmingly REPUBLICAN. They were already Trump voters.
The purpose of the Russian propaganda was to sow mistrust about US institutions, elections, governance, other Americans, policy, etc among primarily REPUBLICANS (and conspiracy theory folks like maybe the LaRouchies, Mises Caucus, some of the black activist groups, etc). Not to change the vote of Trump voters to – Trump??
So, is the irony that it was the left and the American media that did all the distrust sowing rather than Russia lost on you?
And I do find it funny that the narrative is now “it was never intended to change the election, just to sow distrust.” The goal post moving when it comes to almost all things Russia is just staggering anymore.
I found an article about it from 2017. Sounds like they were parroting what other people were already saying. Also in the article,
""Edgett told lawmakers that Twitter has traced 2,752 accounts to the Russia-based troll factory, the Internet Research Agency, and found that Russian accounts tweeted 1.4 million times in a span of just over two months. Asked if he had addressed the full scope of the problem, Edgett told senators Wednesday, “We’re still working on it.”'
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/infamous-fake-twitter-account-prompted-social-media-giant/story?id=50891319
We now know that Twitter did not trace 2,752 accounts to Russia based troll farms according to Twitter staff. That was a product of the Hamilton 68 dashboard. We know for a fact that the Hamilton 68 dashboard was flagging conservative sites as Russian.
While I'm not saying it's so, your example might not be true since there was a strong effort by dems to label right wing sites as Russian.
"Except of course that the person who funded the propaganda program HAS OVERTLY ADMITTED IT"
Here is JFear to confidently assert things that are untrue. This is pretty standard for JFear.
Taibbi has released the emails that show Twitter used the Hamilton 68 API to reverse engineer which accounts they were using to assert a Russian Propaganda Program. We know, from these emails that this PROGRAM DID NOT EXIST. The people who Hamilton 68 monitored were often Americans, and had nothing to do with Russia.
So whether Russia was involved in (and admitting to) propaganda, we know for a fact that Hamilton 68 was not identifying that propaganda, and we know for a fact that every article that was released reporting on their warnings was based on their hoax. It was a lie. We further know that Twitter had identified this and that behind the scenes they were warning media not to trust Hamilton 68's "research". And we know (from their statements in these emails) that the media disregarded these emails and kept up the ruse, while Twitter declined to publicly state what they knew.
So, JFear is obfuscating the issue, just as Sullum was. I have hope that one day Sullum will come to his senses. JFear is beyond saving.
The only people who mention 'Hamilton 68' in this thread are you and another moron commenter here. Whatever you're talking about has nothing to do with anything relevant or on topic. You're drinking from the toilet not the tap.
Hamilton 68 is remarkably relevant. It's funny watching you squirm. When you run into hard facts, you simply go "nuh uh!"
This is not JFear squirming. It is him being the standard clueless, arrogant know-it-all that he always is.
You see, he read something once on the internet- probably a reddit article on wallstreetbets or something- and thinks he is now an expert who can lecture everyone on anything.
Here is him showing how clueless he is on Inflation a couple months back. The lack of basic economic 101 knowledge is almost comical.
https://reason.com/2022/10/13/inflation-hits-8-2-percent-after-another-month-of-sharply-rising-prices/?comments=true#comment-9744068
Wow. Just, wow.
Sure it doesn’t Jslave.
"Whatever you’re talking about has nothing to do with anything relevant or on topic. You’re drinking from the toilet not the tap."
You are almost parodying yourself here. I mean, even mocking you, I could not predict you would say something that so blatantly reveals how clueless you are.
Since you obviously don't know, Hamilton 68 is the reason this article was written. The first two paragraphs of the article are summarizing it. When Sullum writes, "That episode, which journalist Matt Taibbi revealed last week", he is talking about Hamilton 68. Please help yourself (we beg you) to the links Sullum conveniently put there.
This is like that thread where you tried to lecture me on climate science and revealed your ignorance: https://reason.com/2022/08/19/incompetent-people-are-often-too-incompetent-to-realize-just-how-incompetent-they-are-says-new-study/?comments=true#comment-9662173
Seriously, how many times are you going to parachute into these threads to sound like a Very Smart Guy, only to reveal that you have the intellectual depth of a leaking kiddy pool?
HA! I remember reading that thread. It was pretty amazing.
FFS. Russian propaganda was never a "threat to our democracy". And the people calling it such knew as much. Because only a drooling moron would have believed that. The Russians just provided a convenient bogeyman to justify their failure in the 2016 election. They knew the Never Trumpers from Conservatism Inc would cream their panties over an opportunity to vilify the Evil Ruskies. And they used it as an excuse to shut down arguments they didn't like.
The problem (for Russia) is that its propaganda efforts failed. However, there is ample evidence that they certainly thought enough of them to spend a great deal of money on them.
It's the thought that counts!
When Americans comment on U.S. issues or candidates, no matter how ill-informed or misguided their opinions, they are participating in democracy. When Russians say the same things, they are undermining democracy. That assumption seems dubious
It’s not dubious at all. The purpose of the propaganda is not to ‘undermine democracy’. It is to infect public discussion with the notion that nothing is real – nothing is true – black is white and white is black – etc. So that everything political should simply to be tuned out. Exactly the way ‘democracy in Russia’ works in Russia.
I’m sure that there are partisan differences in how such propaganda works outside Russia. But that just means that Russian propaganda works better inside Russia (where everyone ‘believes’ it or they fall out of windows) than it does outside of Russia. Well no fucking DUH.
Further – the broader purpose of propaganda is to change people’s opinions re some action taken by the propagandist. So that, eg, the propagandist can start an overtly genocidal war against some external (or internal) target. And be overtly and avidly supported by those who believe the propaganda.
Or at minimum, if the propaganda is only partially believed (on say partisan terms), then at least the public discussion is infected so that the war is not a war – or it’s not genocide – or ‘who started it’ – or ‘how far is that aggressor going to go’ – or ‘what is the risk of even talking about anything’. IOW – the propagandist defines the terms of how others (the target of the propaganda) will react to ACTIONS.
And it sure as fuck HAS worked. Just look at the comments here and how those commenters have reacted to the actions of propagandists.
Tell us more about how the US should be locked down, Americans conscripted, and the unvaxxed denied medical treatment due to covid, you pathetic clump of cancer.
Haha a little time wasting troll gambit.
The topic is Russia not covid.
Even if the topic was covid, glom one thing that happened in real life but that I never supported (hence you will be unable to link to evidence that I did) - with two things that didn't happen in real life (only in comment threads here) that I did support but which you will never link to so you can simply make up shit (or pretend that my lack of response implies something).
Back on ignore.
The sarc defense.
The point, jfree, is that you're a fucking imbecile with a known history of wholly inaccurate analysis. You're also a totalitarian piece of shit who wants people punished for not following the Party's diktats. Your life has negative value, and if you had an ounce of integrity you would've killed yourself long ago. As it is, you'll continue being a burden on humanity until someone does the rest of us a favor and puts you down, because you're a resentful coward.
"And it sure as fuck HAS worked."
I mean look at who won...
"the actions of propagandists."
When the mask was removed from the Russian propaganda, it was really American propaganda. More specifically the dems.
If you believe in was the Russians, then you believe the actions of the propagandists. People who think the Hunter laptop story was Russian propaganda fell victim to American propaganda for example. The same is true about the Russian threat on social media. Even Twitter staff called BS on it. Or Trump's nefarious ties to Alfa bank, a story created and manipulated by an FBI agent. How about a letter signed by 50 members of the intel community that the media used to claim the Hunter laptop was Russian related when the letter itself claimed there was no evidence as such. Those who signed that letter knew it was going to be used to promote a conspiracy when there was no evidence of said conspiracy.
More shit pretending that Twitter files (black) are even the same thing as anything mentioned in the article or the indictment (white). Black is white. White is black. Congrats. You are now one of the useful idiots of that Russian interference effort.
Cope and seethe more.
""a large body of literature" indicates that political messages, regardless of the source or forum, have a "minimal" impact on voting."
Maybe this should have been the lead? I guess politicians and PACS should stop pouring money into political ads and persuasion campaigns. And all those think tanks and podcasters they give money to? Psst, what a waste!
But seriously, this is and has always been a story about and how much attention we should give to it. We all know that if just one George Soros sponsored entity pushes a left-wing agenda the right will freak out. That's how this all works. Did China influence Hunter in some itsy-bitsy way? Freak out!
The CIA has been doing Psy Ops for decades. Is it because they are stupid? Or does it work? What we do know with our own eyes is that there are a lt of trolls out there seeding disinformation and bad logic all over the internet. If the Russians are a small part of this it is very newsworthy. Especially if they are specifically targeting our beliefs. If they lobbed missiles at us and they fell in barren corn fields would you celebrate how little it affected anything? Heck no. We would be in full freak-out mode.
This is about doing more than one thing at a time. We should be concerned with foreign propaganda and dis/misinformation. But we should also be concerned with domestic sources as well. So what? I'm sure someone can come up with a study that says PBS only marginally affects voter preferences, but you won't see the GOP stop trying to defund them.
"...So what? I’m sure someone can come up with a study that says PBS only marginally affects voter preferences, but you won’t see the GOP stop trying to defund them."
Since they're crummy at it, we should keep funding them?
Fuck off and die, slaver.
""The CIA has been doing Psy Ops for decades. Is it because they are stupid? Or does it work?"'
How many people think the Hunter laptop story was created by Russians? I know many people that still believe that.
Russian Propaganda Has Succeeded in Persuading Credulous Americans That It Poses a Grave Threat to Democracy
I haven't read the article... or any comments yet, but does anyone else read this headline and get a sense that Sullum may injure himself with this contortion?
No. The sentence is awkward because “it” could refer to “Russia” or “Russian propaganda”, but the awkwardness doesn’t rise to the level of being contorted.
Usual leftist obfuscation from you.
The sad truth: a large and growing contingent in the US population has become dedicated both to existential fear and to government as salvation. This unholy partnership will continue to create never-ending, overlapping crises that justify emergency actions--and reinforce the paranoia and authoritarian culture.
Sullum is silent regarding the role of TDS-addled shits like him in spreading the lies; embarrassment requires some level of self-awareness which seems beyond his abilities.
https://twitter.com/MichaelPSenger/status/1620528370101686273?t=JX3J3ZiNuuGjRH0-uuHMYA&s=19
Virtually every page of Deborah Birx’s book, Silent Invasion, reads like a how-to guide in subverting a democratic superpower from within, as could only be told through the account of someone who was on the front lines doing just that.
[Link]
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1620507840518529040?t=b3FP3nRNZmC2QPr4qQoBTg&s=19
WTF? “The consensus among younger journalists is that we got it all wrong,” Emilio Garcia-Ruiz, editor in chief of the San Francisco Chronicle, told us. “Objectivity has got to go.”
[Link]
Left wing propaganda persuaded credulous "jornolists" that Putin was Trump's puppet master. For six years, and counting.
A little introspection by Sullum would be appreciated.
They can't let go and they don't realize they were the victims of the propaganda.
That's how well the propaganda worked.
These are not the propagandas Sullum is looking for.
Why? Can you cite an example of Sullum’s buying into or perpetuating that credulity?
Great article, Mike. Do you still think the Steele dossier is gospel? Did you ever think the Steele dossier was legitimate? Do you agree that the Steele is propaganda put on by the Democrat party? Do you agree that the media lied to the country for the entire duration of Trump's presidency about a myriad of topics? Do you think the relentless propaganda by the media damaged western Democracy beyond repair, and was swallowed entirely by half the country despite it being complete lies?
Personally, I am done with the media, including Sullum.
“Do you still think the Steele dossier is gospel?”
No.
“Did you ever think the Steele dossier was legitimate?”
At the time it came out I was super busy with work so I never formed an opinion one way or the other.
“Do you agree that the media lied to the country for the entire duration of Trump’s presidency about a myriad of topics?”
Some of the media lied to the country for the entire duration of Trump’s presidency. That includes lies coming from both liberally-biased and conservatively-biased media.
Also, some of the media told a lot of truth.
“Do you think the relentless propaganda by the media damaged western Democracy beyond repair, and was swallowed entirely by half the country despite it being complete lies?”
I’d like to think the damage wasn’t beyond repair. By the way, the biggest damage to democracy came from media sources that backed up Trump on his big lie about a stolen election.
Now, a question for you... (Well, it was my original question that you never answered.)
Can you cite an example of Sullum’s buying into or perpetuating the credulous belief that Putin is or was Trump’s puppet master?
The not so gospel Steele dossier was used for FISA warrants.
https://nypost.com/2019/08/09/fbi-kept-using-steele-dossier-for-fisa-applications-despite-clear-bias/
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I don't recall you having a problem with that.
"Personally, I am done with the media, including Sullum."
Are you also done with these media outlets: Fox News, One America News Network, breitbart.com, the Federalist, stormfront?
Stormfront. LOL. You lefties are obsessed with race, race baiting, and racism, and you are convinced that conservatives are "white nationalists, white supremacists, and Nazis". Your rote accusations are absurd. The longer you guys make such inflammatory accusations, the more credibility you lose and the deeper the wedge between us.
The only one on your list that I watch is Fox. The only one on your list that is beyond the pale is Stormfront. The only reason I know anything about Stormfront is because a different lefty accused me of subscribing to it, so I had to google it to see what it was. To lump Fox or any of the others in your list with Stormfront shows that you are an indoctrinated fool.
I think Fox is the most reliable news source amongst the mainstream, although I am skeptical of them as well. Fox was certainly right about the "Trump Russia" bull shit.
The fact that lefties are STILL citing the Trump Russia hoax as if it is anything but a Democrat hoax has convinced me that the damage to US democracy is irrecoverable.
"The only one on your list that I watch is Fox."
So, you are not "done with the media".
I watch Gutfeld because it's usually funny. Other than that, I sometimes watch MSNBC just to see what the loony left has on their plate. I only watch on youtube, so no cable, no OTA antenna. Yes, I am done with the media.
You just gave a couple of example of how you are not done with media.
“Your rote accusations”
What accusations? I didn’t accuse you of anything. I simply asked if you used any of those media outlets.
Are you above being asked questions?
Do you watch Stormfront?
Nope.
“The fact that lefties are STILL citing the Trump Russia hoax…”
Am I citing the Russia hoax anywhere? I don't do that.
Stormfront is of you. Full of hatred, divisiveness, and racism. Which is the democrat way.
"Stormfront?" So much disingenuousness.
It’s what Mike does best.
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https://twitter.com/LeighWolf/status/1620744921241251842?t=7KEiEZmP5rflvO58bKPEdA&s=19
The damage done to the credibility of AI by ChatGPT engineers building in political bias is irreparable.
[Link]
Is the Biden poem for real? I mean, that is so over the top that it sounds like scathing sarcasm.
Duffus, it's not Russian propaganda that did that, it's Democratic party propaganda.
Sullum was a gullible sheep ever time an orange man bad bleat came across the wire. He also lovingly followed all the "science". GFY.
Sullum wasnt gullible, he was a willing accomplice. The difference between him and McCarthy is that McCarthy was both accurate and honest in his concerns about commies in government.
Cite an example?
https://twitter.com/DC_Draino/status/1620820194355740672?t=FIuJkgON0L-cXfqCyHLedg&s=19
Absolutely wild that President Trump got impeached for a *phone call* to Ukraine
Yet Biden’s family can partner with biolabs & oil companies, get rich, and then send $100 Billion in weapons to utterly destroy the nation instead of negotiating peace and he gets a pat on the back
Yeah. None of that can stand. It needs to end badly for the democrats.
Ctl-F --> search on article and comments for "Viktor Orban" and for "CPAC." Zero found. Huh.
The American Right is in the midst of a love-affair with Russia, Putin, and similar Russia-aligned authoritarians. According to Gallup, in 2018, after the invasion of Crimea, Republican support for Russia rose to 40% and they saw Russia as a "natural ally." There are natural links between the modern Republican party and Russia, including a loss of faith in democracy and embracing religious conservatism. GOP support for Russia remained above 33% even after Ukraine was invaded, though it has slowly declined since as even die-hard FOX News fans hear at least some tidbits about atrocities.
Ctl-F --> "Tucker Carlson". Zero found. Huh.
According to Tucker, the top-rated talking head at FOX:
“It may be worth asking yourself, since it is getting pretty serious, what is this really about? Why do I hate Putin so much?” he said on his Wednesday night show.
“Has Putin ever called me a racist? Has he threatened to get me fired for disagreeing with him?” Carlson said. “These are fair questions, and the answer to all of them is: ‘No.’ Vladimir Putin didn’t do any of that.”
Tucker has gone on to defend Russia throughout the invasion in one form or another. It shouldn't matter what Tucker thinks because he's probably the most toxic thing that pretends to be real news around--except that he's basically the current conservative "prophet." He loves Orban too.
But to be fair, Putin's attempts to destabilize our democracy can only work if Americans buy into the propaganda and believe that our electoral, judicial, and law enforcement systems don't work for them. We have an attempted insurrection as evidence that enough of them do, many who are elected to Congress, that the hand-waving in this article is difficult to stomach. Though, perhaps the primary issue here is that right-wingers don't mind their anti-democracy turn as much as people thinking they've abandoned democracy because they were fooled by Putin rather than having abandoned it as a matter of their own, deeply held principles.
They don’t. You and your fellow travelers are the real threat. Get out of my country.
"" Putin’s attempts to destabilize our democracy can only work if Americans buy into the propaganda and believe that our electoral, judicial, and law enforcement systems don’t work for them. ""
I see a fair amount of that, but it's not Putin.
Yeah, so? We're allies with Saudi Arabia and lots of other horrible regimes. The question of whether a nation is a good ally isn't determined by whether it is nice, it is determined by whether it is of benefit to the US.
And you are correct: Republicans reject and oppose Democrat-style majoritarian democracy. Good thing too.
There, FTFY.
It shouldn’t matter what Tucker thinks because he’s probably the most toxic thing that pretends to be real news around
Something changed when he quit with the bow ties.
And agree with the rest of the comment
Doooooooooood, fuck off and die.
Anyone who supports de-mob-ocracy is an enemy of our republic.
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Democracy_vs_Republic
The second greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world it was Putin's doing all along...
And he would have gotten away with too if it weren’t for those darn kids.
The greatest trick some human pulled was convincing other humans that a Supernatural God or Devil exists, M’Lady!
*Tips magic hat.*
Lies About Russian Propaganda Has Succeeded in Persuading Me That Democrats Pose a Grave Threat to Democracy
Interesting because I’ve seen far more pro-Ukraine propaganda.
It’s clearly The Left who is the bad guys here. There’s really no question it’s The Left who colluded with the DOJ & FBI to violate American Citizenss 1st amendment rights and silence unflattering opinions towards the DNC & anti-Vaxxers.
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