Incompetent People Are Often Too Incompetent To Realize Just How Incompetent They Are, Says New Study
The less people know about a scientific issue, the more confident they are that they are right.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge," wrote Charles Darwin in The Descent of Man (1871). Experimental findings reported in 1999 by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger bolstered Darwin's insight. They tested people on their knowledge of grammar and logic and found that many of the people who did badly on the tests rated their performance as being well above average. On the other hand, those who did well tended to underestimate how well they had done.
The now eponymous Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people "wrongly overestimate their knowledge or ability in a specific area. This tends to occur because a lack of self-awareness prevents them from accurately assessing their own skills." In other words, incompetent people are often too incompetent to realize just how incompetent they are. (It should be noted, however, that some now suggest that the Dunning-Kruger effect is not a real phenomenon but arises from how the researchers parsed their data.)
In any case, most of us do suffer from various forms of cognitive overconfidence such as the "illusion of explanatory depth." We actually think we know how many of the mechanisms and processes we interact with every day actually operate. But when we are asked to draw or write down how a zipper, a bicycle, or a flush toilet works, we find that we don't know as much as we initially thought we did. And let's not get started on the massive problem of confirmation bias when it comes to politically salient issues.
Now, a new study in Science Advances adds to these findings and reports that "knowledge overconfidence is associated with anti-consensus views on controversial scientific issues." In the study, the researchers first asked 3,200 participants through online surveys how much they think they know (subjective knowledge) using a 7-point scale about each of seven scientific topics ranging from "vague understanding" to "thorough understanding." To prime participants, the researchers provide a complex explanation of how a crossbow is constructed and works (level 7 knowledge) compared to the case where a person can identify a crossbow and know that it shoots arrows (level 1 knowledge). Then each participant was randomly assigned to answer a question about their degree of acceptance of one of the seven different issues that enjoy substantial scientific consensus.
The issues probed by the researchers were "the safety of GM foods, the validity of anthropogenic climate change, the benefits of vaccination outweighing its risks, the validity of evolution as an explanation of human origins, the validity of the Big Bang theory as an explanation for the origin of the universe, the lack of efficacy of homeopathic medicine, and the importance of nuclear power as an energy source." For each issue, participants were asked to indicate their level of opposition ranging from not at all (level 1) to extreme (level 7).
To figure out how much participants might know about scientific findings in general, researchers also tested them on a 7-point objective-knowledge scale ranging from definitely false, not sure, to definitely true for 34 different purportedly factual claims about the world. The researchers divvied up the 34 statements into clusters relevant to the topics of evolution, the Big Bang, nuclear power, genetically modified foods, vaccination and homeopathy, and climate change. Among the statements participants were asked to answer true or false were assertions like the center of the earth is very hot; all radioactivity is man-made; ordinary tomatoes do not have genes, whereas genetically modified tomatoes do; the earliest humans lived at the same time as the dinosaurs; and nitrogen makes up most of the earth's atmosphere.
The researchers also asked participants about their political and religious views.
The researchers then compared the strength of the participants' claims to subjective knowledge, that is, how sure they were that the scientific consensus of the seven topics was right or wrong, with the depth of their objective knowledge as revealed by their answers to the 34 purportedly factual claims.
In general, the researchers found "that the people who disagree most with the scientific consensus know less about the relevant issues, but they think they know more." Interestingly, as the above chart shows, study participants tended to have a bit less confidence in their views with respect to the highly polarized issue of climate change and the origins of the universe and species.
The researchers do acknowledge that "conforming to the consensus is not always recommended." They cite the opposition of Plato and Galileo Galilei to philosophical and scientific consensuses of their eras as examples. They might well have noted the pernicious consensus in favor of eugenics that prevailed in the early 20th century.
Nevertheless, the researchers conclude that "if opposition to the consensus is driven by an illusion of understanding and if that opposition leads to actions that are dangerous to those who do not share in the illusion, then it is incumbent on society to try to change minds in favor of the scientific consensus." Dangerous actions like trying to ban more productive and environmentally friendly crop varieties, refusing vaccination against dangerous infectious diseases, or rejecting a safe technology for generating electric power.
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Does this apply to writers at Reason?
Most of the journalism profession, sadly.
Journalists are some of, if not the absolute least self-aware people out there. They claim to have broad knowledge, yet their knowledge is like that of the Platte River. It’s wide, yes, so they know of things, but less than an inch deep, and they know nothing of those things. And while it’s too thin to plow through and grow anything in, it’s also too full of crap to drink.
Here’s looking at you, Bailey.
the validity of anthropogenic climate change
Note that the correlation in the upper graph is negative – those who know more are less likely to swallow the ‘consensus’.
Does Bailey notice this? Nope. His self awareness is lacking.
He’s living under the illusion that “consensus” cannot be the result of incompetence 🙂
Dunning-Kruger happens to climate scientists. A lot. And the journalists who cover climate science. A lot.
The trick is to use the scientific method, to wit:
1) a list of observations, which if observed, mean a hypothesis is false;
2) a logical argument that the lack of those falsifications means that a hypothesis must be favored over all others (including the null).
Translation into plain english (inspired by Scott Adams):
1) tell me what would change your mind;
2) tell me why those if the things that would change your mind aren’t there, the only explanation left is AGW.
“If you disagree with the consensus created of government funded apparatchiks, you’re just an ignorant hillbilly.”
An actual libertarian publication would notice this.
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Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
– Richard Feynman, What is Science?
The Physics Teacher Vol. 7, issue 6, 1969, pp. 313-320
http://www.feynman.com/science/what-is-science/
Bailey is a perfect example.
And Putin and Dubya with his Soul-O-Meter…
“Does this apply to writers at Reason?”
If it does, multiply it by 10 to the 99th power and apply it to JesseBahnFuhrer, the high-school dorp-out who is an expert on EVERYTHING, and keeps right on dorping out!
Jesse says I need to be more aware of how evil Democrats are.
I’m sure that there are MILLIONS of people waiting, with bated breath, for Jesse’s extensive EXPERT data-driven white paper, with charts and graphs, and detailed statistical analyses, to prove this all!
Meanwhile, are you familiar with the latest scientific polls, as described below?
STOP THE PRESSES! HOT NEWS FLASH!
INSSSSIGHT (Infallibly Noble, Succulently Scientific SQRLSY-Survey Intelligently Gathered Hot Takes) has conducted in-person surveys of almost 10 million Democrats very recently, and here are the findings! Today’s USA Democrats identify or agree with the below statements at the following rates (please ignore sum total mismatches with 100% due to rounding errors):
‘A) 0.15%: “Marxism is the One True Way, and North Korea is Utopia on Earth!”
‘B) 0.25%: “Antifa, the Lizard People, and BLM are the ONLY ones properly qualified to teach CRT to all of Our Children, all of which MUST be embraced by ALL schools!”
‘C) 0.65%: “The Republican Party must be outlawed ASAP, because they are grooming innocent young people to become Republicans! Also, chimpanzees and monkeys that have been grooming each other need to be prevented from performing ANY further grooming! Everyone knows that grooming is horrible!”
‘D) 2.3%: “Religion (especially Christian religion) must be kept out of the schools and public policy debates! However, the ironclad, unquestionable revelations to Democrats concerning the Earth Mother Gaia, and the facts that higher minimum wages don’t cause unemployment, and that forced-lower rents don’t cause homelessness, may NOT be questioned, because they are compassionate and self-evident, and do NOT come from God, so they are NOT religious beliefs.”
‘E) 17%: “I know that higher minimum wages cause more unemployment, and that forced-lower rents cause homelessness among the poor, but I get SOOOO much pleasure out of punishing the evil Republicans, that I consider the punishment inflicted on the poor, by these Democrat policies, to be just a bit of ‘collateral damage’. And WHY do the Republicans deserve punishment? As revenge for the damage that they do to the poor, by using statist womb control to force them to have larger families. Republicans thus thwart the ‘demographic transition’ for the poor, through policies that encourage ‘the rich will get richer, while the poor will have more children’. So we must PUNISH the Republicans for this! Revenge is ours!”
‘F) 30%: “I know that higher minimum wages cause more unemployment, and that forced-lower rents cause homelessness among the poor, but I can’t find any Democrat politicians that will vote my way on these issues, and I can’t bring myself to vote Republican or Libertarian, because most of them are so pro-life that they want to take over my womb, my wife’s womb, or my girlfriend’s womb.”
‘G) 50%: “I would LOVE to see a Grand Compromise whereby Democrats stops punishing the poor with higher minimum wages AND excessive licensing laws which ultimately cause more unemployment, and with forced-lower rents that ultimately cause homelessness among the poor, and Republicans cease and desist with anti-abortion and anti-birth-control laws that ALSO punish the poor! ALL statist policies that yank the ladders of success away from the poor should be removed! However, Republicans are fanatics who won’t listen to reason. So for now, I’ll keep on voting “D”, and the poor will keep on having more and more children, they’ll vote “D”, out-vote the “R” fanatics, and THEN we can perhaps finally get to a sensible-policies-place!”
“Give a little to get a little”, said a materialistic slutty girlfriend of mine way back when. See https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/love-language-youre-more-likely-170236564.html “If This Is Your Love Language, You’re More Likely to Divorce”… Couples treasure the following items, or express their love in the following ways, says this article: ‘1) gifts (presents), ‘2) quality time together, ‘3) acts of service (AKA work… Do the dishes already!), ‘4) words; I love you, etc., ‘5) physical touch (affection).
Beware of #1!!! Materialism, gifts, status symbols, conspicuous consumption!.. Designer this and designer that! “I spent more money on you than you spent on me!” A quick way to fights, broken relationships, and divorces! Achtung, Baby!
Well, I digress. “Give a little to get a little” can make a LOT more sense in politics!!!
Hey, look, assholes, see what the above polling data says!!! Combine categories E, F, and G, and 97% of Democrats would be open to having Republicans give a little, to get a little! “Team R” gives up being “compassionate” with other peoples’ wombs, and “team D” gives up being “compassionate” with other peoples’ money! Only self-righteous assholery stands in our way!!!
“Incompetent People Are Often Too Incompetent To Realize Just How Incompetent They Are, Says New Study”
Si monumentum requiris , circumspice.
Sqrlsy nescit se tyrannum esse fascist.
Cite?
Vide supra.
Brutus Stultus says… stultus tam stultus est!!!
Stultus est quod stultus facit.
Ave SQRLSY !
Inamabilis scurius !
Ave SPQRLSY !
Inamabilis et spurious
Ave SQRLSY !
Scurrilous and incurious
Smegmacious and sagacious!
It applies particularly to people with bullshit credentials like Jill Biden.
-jcr
Everyone should take a look at Jill Biden’s “dissertation”. It’s a hoot. It’s worse than a nothing burger. It reveals that she is barely literate. She can’t write and she can’t think.
It was weird reading it. It looks like English, and there are phrases in English, but the phrases often don’t stack to make a sentence.
I had stop and analyze just *how* it was so incoherent. The main thing lacking was consistent structure within a sentence. Lists of a, b, c, where a, b, and c are not the same type of things, expressed in the same way.
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/jill_biden_dissertation.pdf
Reason does not have writers, only editors and correspondents. I believe that level of self important hubris counts.
probably applies to many of the regular posters more….
Stay salty, shrike.
“Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.
In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.”
― Michael Crichton
One of the most egregious examples I see of that all the time is pig-ignorant reporters blaming businesses for inflation because they’ve raised a price.
-jcr
The Propagandist Effect is a cognitive bias in which propagandists “wrongly overestimate their honesty in a specific area. This tends to occur because habitually lying to others makes them habitually lie to themselves.”
^+1000000000000
Of all the ways communists try and peddle their manure this is truly the best of the best e.g. ‘…. refusing vaccination against dangerous infectious diseases,….’ – clearly only incompetent people would ever suggest or decide to do such a thing i.e. challenge the State orthodoxy.
Well, if we are taking refusing the COVID vaccines, it IS a stupid personal decision for most people.
No it isnt. Vast majority of people were at very little risk. Especially under 30.
Notice Mike inserts the weasel word there “most” people.
They don’t work.
The mRNA jabs weren’t vaccines. They were therapeutics and all the evidence demonstrates that they didn’t work.
It’s worse than that. All the evidence demonstrates they make things worse. COVID ended itself with more virulent and less deadly variants – the mRNA jabs simply ran a massive pharmaceutical experiment on a large population with no liability and only side effects.
The number of people who were spared from the original COVID by taking the jab can likely be counted in double digits. The number of people injured by the jab is likely in the high six figures.
What about refusing the monthly boosters that don’t work?
No, YOU are stupid. But you’re too stupid to understand just how stupid you really are.
The issues probed by the researchers were “the safety of GM foods, the validity of anthropogenic climate change, the benefits of vaccination outweighing its risks,
Consensus based theories? This is a terrible means to estimate ignorance or understanding. Unless the questions were highly specific and repeatable in science. But I doubt they were.
These are highly volatile subjects even for people in the individual fields. Yet you are choosing these realms to rate people on ignorance and its effects.
The Law of Gravity is a law because nobody really disagrees about what makes an apple fall from the tree.
Building consensus amongst researchers is a critical part of accepting the strength of theories.
The problem here is that these fields are not repeatable and have often been proven wrong in prediction power. The absolute other side of repeatable experiments such as gravity.
Climate science is especially upon to corruption where the political portion of the IPCC report is often in opposition to the science based portion. Likewise the above fields are rife with emotion and conflict even on their individual fields where politics plays a huge play on advancement.
That is the issue.
Climate science is especially upon to corruption where the political portion of the IPCC report is often in opposition to the science based portion.
^
The IPCC reports start from scientific papers, but in the end the scientific papers are only there to provide footnotes to the “Guide for Policy Makers,” which never engages the data in a scientific manner, but only uses it to bolster a pre-determined narrative having mostly to do with spending lots of money on infrastructure projects in corrupt developing countries.
And it is noteworthy that every time we look back 20 years to that time’s latest IPCC consensus, we find that their predictions were wrong.
Then I’m sure you will be able to cite evidence. From the actual IPCC – Third Assessment Report – 2001. In this case – a summary for policymakers that was specifically about answering nine questions.
The first example of a roughly 20-year projection in that was a projection that global temperature would increase by 0.4C to 1.1C from 1990 to 2025. Not quite 2025 yet but it looks like the increase is 0.7C so far. IOW – right in the fucking middle of the projection. So chalk up one example of you’re fucking wrong. But amazingly confident that you are right. Which is – you know – kind of exactly what this article is about.
Feel free to go through more 20 or so year projections from that actual IPCC report. Some may be right. Some may be wrong. But your easy assertion sure as fuck doesn’t lend you any credibility in the early going.
IPCC reports cite a wide range as a matter of course (as they should). The problem is that the headline number reported out in press releases, picked up by our lazy and incompetent media, and flogged mercilessly as a baseline for policy proposals inevitably ends up being the high-end forecast, which is usually chock full of completely unrealistic assumptions.
The projection of 0.4C to 1.1C is simply a linear extrapolation from the past 100 or so years – there’s no real predictive power there, just “we’ll likely get more of what we already have”.
The problem isn’t so much the global average temperature (which nobody ever experiences), but the second and third order effects claimed (economic damage, natural disasters, etc). Those second and third order effects, touted by the IPCC, simply haven’t happened.
Cite actual evidence that that methodology is purely linear extrapolation. Since I actually know what linear extrapolation looks like and what it does with projection bands as a time frame gets further away from the point where the extrapolation begins.
Further – even IF the methodology is that – are you aware that a linear trend is actually evidence of anthropogenic forcing? Natural forcing tends toward cyclical. Which over time resembles stability and equilibrium. Cyclical trends tend to reverse – for reasons that actual evidence-minded people tend to look for and try to understand so that we can understand cycles.
And amazingly that it is also included in the IPCC report included in the above link. Precisely because shorter-term cycles and longer-term stability are precisely the sorts of phenomena where inaction is a completely reasonable ‘policymaker’ response.
“I know what linear extrapolation is”
“Just eyeball it”
If “climate change” people want to talk seriously about reducing CO2 emissions with scrubbers or catalytic converters, or want to talk about nuclear power, or how to build up a resilient and reliable grid that would be able to support an all-electric US economy on all-electric, or carbon capture technologies, or desalination, or space-based microwave-delivered power, any number of things, I’m happy to talk about those because those are aiming at being a “solution”. There is no “solution” ever to be found in the climate change problem by taking money away from “rich” people or countries and giving it to people and countries.
Which is largely what the IPCC proceedings on climate change actually talks about. The IPCC is the ultimate global authority on the subject of climate change. They do a fantastic job of documenting the observed changes and presenting lots of models about the potential changes. But then they spend as much time addressing poverty and inequality as they do talking about actual solutions (and most of the “solutions” proposed take the form of getting government force people to emit less CO2, by any means required…they call it “behaviour- and lifestyle- related measures” and “demand-side management” but what they really mean is “Enabling this investment requires the mobilization and better integration of a range of policy instruments that include the reduction of socially inefficient fossil fuel subsidy regimes and innovative price and non-price national and international policy instruments.”) The whole report is basically about money, money controlled by governments…https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/
Chapter 5: Sustainable Development, Poverty Eradication and Reducing Inequalities — IPCC
Chapter 5: Sustainable Development, Poverty Eradication and Reducing In…
Why is this even a topic for the IPCC? And it’s not limited to one chapter in the report, either…
Enabling Rapid and Far-Reaching Change
The speed of transitions and of technological change required to limit warming to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels has been observed in the past within specific sectors and technologies {4.2.2.1}. But the geographical and economic scales at which the required rates of change in the energy, land, urban, infrastructure and industrial systems would need to take place are larger and have no documented historic precedent (limited evidence, medium agreement). To reduce inequality and alleviate poverty, such transformations would require more planning and stronger institutions (including inclusive markets) than observed in the past, as well as stronger coordination and disruptive innovation across actors and scales of governance.
As far as Climate Change goes, I’ve already thrown it out there that I’m not a “denier”, that we should be doing things that could help mitigate it. But I’m not going to unilaterally live in a cave and eat dirt to reduce my carbon footprint.
Especially because the dire consequences so often predicted have not come to pass as predicted, since no one ever talks about the potential positives that might stem from climate change (e.g., 10K years ago much of the Northern Hemisphere was covered with ice 1 mile thick, the climate changed and humans benefitted), and that it is obvious that the AGW “movement” is a cover for leftist politics bent on redistributive policies.
(OTTMAR EDENHOFER, UN IPCC OFFICIAL): “Basically it’s a big mistake to discuss climate policy separately from the major themes of globalization. The climate summit in Cancun at the end of the month is not a climate conference, but one of the largest economic conferences since the Second World War… First of all, developed countries have basically expropriated the atmosphere of the world community. But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole.
Rep. Ocasio-Cortez’s chief of staff, Saikat Chakrabarti: “The interesting thing about the Green New Deal, is it wasn’t originally a climate thing at all…Do you guys think of it as a climate thing? Because we really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing,” he added.
Former U.S. Senator Timothy Wirth (D-CO), then representing the Clinton-Gore administration as U.S undersecretary of state for global issues: “We have got to ride the global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic policy and environmental policy.”
Christine Stewart, former Canadian Environment Minister: “No matter if the science is all phoney, there are collateral environmental benefits…. climate change [provides] the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world.”
Daphne Muller, green-progressive-liberal writer for Salon: “This moment requires we the people to rethink democracy as a global mechanism for enacting policy for and by the planet.”
David Brower, a founder of the Sierra Club: “The goal now is a socialist, redistributionist society, which is nature’s proper steward and society’s only hope.”
Emma Brindal, a climate justice campaigner coordinator for Friends of the Earth: “A climate change response must have at its heart a redistribution of wealth and resources.”
And to that I say – so what?
Any actual evidence re what is likely to happen re the climate – absent any mitigating change we make – has absolutely NOTHING to do with the political arguments and head-banging of semi-advanced chimpanzees re what other tribes of chimpanzees we should like/love/hate/kill/help/etc.
If you can’t separate the two, then you’re just part of the chimp fights. If we focus on what is likely to happen re the CLIMATE, then it is possible that we will agree (or not) on whether some sort of mitigation of that is possible/preferable/etc.
If we focus on which tribe of chimps we can hate and what they do and what we should do in response, then ‘climate’ is nothing but one episode in a TV series called ‘Tribal Chimp Wars’.
Those same chimps just passed a bill to throw $300+ billion at the chimps who are members of the church of AGW to produce more propaganda for the church. Such waste damages the country in many ways, not least of which is the scientific IQ of the chimps. It should be named the Anti-Enlightenment bill.
I’ll repeat myself:
If “climate change” people want to talk seriously about reducing CO2 emissions with scrubbers or catalytic converters, or want to talk about nuclear power, or how to build up a resilient and reliable grid that would be able to support an all-electric US economy on all-electric, or carbon capture technologies, or desalination, or space-based microwave-delivered power, any number of things, I’m happy to talk about those because those are aiming at being a “solution”. There is no “solution” ever to be found in the climate change problem by taking money away from “rich” people or countries and giving it to people and countries.
“The first example of a roughly 20-year projection in that was a projection that global temperature would increase by 0.4C to 1.1C from 1990 to 2025. Not quite 2025 yet but it looks like the increase is 0.7C so far.”
My multilink response is in moderation, but in short, JSafe is taking many liberties with the facts here:
https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/cag/global/time-series/globe/land_ocean/ytd/7/1990-2022
1) JSafe misstates the actual temperature record. The current increase sits at around .38C above 1990 levels. In other words, less than the .4 at the lower end of the estimates he quotes (more on those in #4). What likely happened is that JSafe cherrypicked the data as of 2020 when we had a rather high anomaly. But the linear increase is .18C per decade, rather than the .2 – .5C predicted.
2) JSafe misrepresents my argument when he implies that I said previous 20 year predictions were inaccurate. I actually said every time we look back 20 years, we see predictions made at those times were wrong. There is a difference.
3) JSafe lies when he suggests that the first such prediction was made in 2000. The very first IPCC report, in 1990, predicted a .3C increase per decade, with a 1.2C increase by 2025. Even in 2010, this was obviously wrong, and it is wrong now.
4) Finally, JSafe lies by omission when he suggests that .4C is a relevant prediction back in 2000. The ranges from .4C – 1.1C were based on multiple emissions scenarios- from reducing emissions to moderate increases in emissions. It should be read, “.4C of warming if emissions taper off, up to 1.1C under higher emissions.”
In fact, emissions right now are at around 11 GtC/yr, which puts us right between the 2nd (A1B) and 3rd (A1T) highest of 7 scenarios. So if these predictions WERE accurate, we would expect to see temperatures much closer to the 1C level than the .4C level. But we do not.
So the TL;DR is that either JSafe is intentionally lying to us, or (more likely) he is spouting off arrogantly about shit he doesn’t understand.
First – that NOAA chart looks very similar to the chart I pulled up to verify whether that projection was right/wrong. So congrats – you are using a valid source of data.
What likely happened is that JSafe cherrypicked the data as of 2020 when we had a rather high anomaly.
I didn’t cherry pick anything. I didn’t have that particular link to a data grapher that allows you to select start and end dates. I had an graphic image over time to whatever looked current (2021 was on there because there was clearly a one year dip on the image I saw). I then visually regressed the line (specifically to eliminate one-year BS and because individual years were hard to pick out) from around 1990 (a temperature anomaly of roughly 0.3C as I saw it – which now calculates to around 0.35C for a 5-year average around 1990 on the link you provide) to roughly an extrapolated 2025 (which I simply estimated at 1.0C since that line crossed the 1C anomaly by then).
1.0C – .30C = 0.7C. With the actual data (rather than just an image) to present I’ll accept 0.65C.
First though – shame on you for using July as the end point. I’ll assume reasonable intent since I will assume that your goal was merely to bring the record into 2022. But defining temp changes as “January-July anomaly” for all PAST years serious distorts actual temp changes for all years in which ‘year’ includes ‘January through December’ months.
Second – visually including pre-1990 indicates that it is 1990 that is the outlier (apparently a very hot year). 2020 is only an ‘outlier’ relative to 2021 – and even so – seven of the seven hottest years since 1980 are 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2021.
Third – moving that data start point to 1880 to present with a January-December anomaly is in fact exactly the graphic image I pulled up. And it makes those seven hottest years since 1880 an even starker indicator of what hasn’t really even started yet – since by greenhouse theory temperatures won’t stabilize for CENTURIES after CO2 emissions stabilize.
Fourth – if you do want to use 1990 specifically as the gotcha year in 2025 – and hope for a Jan-Dec anomaly in that year (2025) of below 0.85C in that year in order to get below the IPCC 0.4C projection and ‘pwn the progs and prove them wrong’. Well I suppose you can do just that. It is EXACTLY what I expect from Mises Caucus Republicans masquerading as Libertarian types. On every empirical issue – and going forward forever.
JSafe lies when he suggests that the first such prediction was made in 2000
What part of the THIRD ASSESSMENT REPORT (the direct href link text in my comment) makes you believe that it is the FIRST one. 2000 was roughly 20 years ago. The 20 years that you believe is sufficient to prove IPCC wrong about everything. So that’s the one I challenged you to pick everything to be wrong about. But apparently basic reading comprehension skills fall prey to your anger management problems when you get challenged.
“First though – shame on you for using July as the end point.”
Yeah you aren’t getting away with that. Whether we use latest data to 2022 or full year ending in Dec 2021, you are still wrong. YTD linear increase is .18C per decade, or .018 a year. Full year data is .2C per decade, or .02 per year. That means a grand total of .08 additional warming by 2025, or .46C.
So first off, you can fuck right off with your “For shame” nonsense. Assuming 2022 suddenly jumps back to the .02C/y increase my “shameful” and transparent use of data will be off 17%. Meanwhile you (totally innocently, and without confirmation bias I’m sure) eyeballed a number that was 50% high (you: .7, actual projected .46) from a source you didn’t share and smugly declared me wrong.
But yeah, I’m the one who should feel shame.
While I am feeling shame, I see that never once did you respond to the fact that even this .46C is hitting the low end prediction based on scenarios that expected les emissions than happened in reality.
“Second – visually including pre-1990 indicates that it is 1990 that is the outlier (apparently a very hot year).”
Irrelevant. The predictions made in 2000 already knew what had happened 10 years before. So you don’t get to change the subject here.
“Even so, seven of the seven hottest years since 1980 are 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2021.”
Again, irrelevant. The prediction wasn’t “will temperature rise”. The prediction wasn’t “will there be hotter years.” The prediction was a specific temperature increase and it is way off. And *you* insisted that this was untrue- that the predictions were right on, and you are fucking wrong.
” moving that data start point to 1880 to present with a January-December anomaly is in fact exactly the graphic image I pulled up.”
Again, you are bringing up irrelevancies. I did not say the world wasn’t warming. I specifically said that the IPCC predictions have been consistently proven wrong. And they have.
“Fourth – if you do want to use 1990 specifically as the gotcha year in 2025″
This is fucking hilarious. *I* didn’t use 1990 as a gotcha. YOU did. YOU claimed that the predicted warming from 1990 was correct. The IPCC picked that date, not me. And now that you have beclowned yourself you want to throw up a bunch of different data to argue against a case I did not make.
” It is EXACTLY what I expect from Mises Caucus Republicans masquerading as Libertarian types.”
And here JSafe retreats back to the ad homs. You did this in the Crypto thread a few weeks back. You go off half cocked making assertions that are untrue, and when called on it, try to change the subject and then declare “Well you are just a [insert collective you don’t like]”.
You are like a broken record, JSafe.
“What part of the THIRD ASSESSMENT REPORT (the direct href link text in my comment) makes you believe that it is the FIRST one.”
Oh shit, you are right- I read “The first example of a roughly 20-year projection in that was a projection that global temperature would increase by 0.4C to 1.1C from 1990 to 2025.” And thought you were saying that this assessment was the first example of a 20 year projection over all- and missed the “in that [report]” qualifier.
So I’ll give you that one. Apologies.
Of course, it doesn’t change the fact that you pompously claimed that the 2000 prediction is on track to be accurate, when it is not. Are you going to admit that your attack on me was wrong, or are you going to double down on your shell game arguments?
That was a righteous fisking. Well done.
I see that never once did you respond to the fact that even this .46C is hitting the low end prediction based on scenarios that expected less emissions than happened in reality.
That’s because this 0.46C is not a valid number worth responding to. Yes – it is accurate arithmetic based on what one might call cherrypicked data points. But you can’t validly anchor a trend to a single point in a data series when the variance of that data from point to point is so large relative to the trend line itself. If you can’t distinguish between the trend and annual noise, then you can’t ever make any determination of whether the projected trend is wrong/right.
In particular that isn’t a valid method because of what you chose to do – anchor a bogus ‘trend start’ at an outlier on one side, a unique half-year anomaly on the other, in order to assert (arithmetically – but still a mere assertion) that the projected trend is invalid. Meaning that the data must now be presumed to be all noise now.
Ignore any future data (like 2025 which is where the projected trend line must end) – your methodology results in PAST results where trend lines can connect any two points anywhere along the series and you can’t judge which of those ‘trends’ are trends and which aren’t and what is noise or not.
Oh – and where in that 2001 report are the different emissions scenarios specifically and quantitatively tied to large projected temperature changes in a short timeframe like 1990-2025.
Obviously there’s a link between the two – but only half of carbon emissions initially go into the atmosphere (for a relatively fast link between emissions and temperature). A quarter goes into plants/soil where short-term sequestration and land-use changes create a slower linkage. A quarter goes into the oceans and idk what the hell the link is there beyond ocean acidification.
Specifically the only dates I see where those emissions scenarios actually would have an impact on projected temperatures is 2100 – NOT 2025. It would be fucking ludicrous for the IPCC to assume that all those emissions scenarios take effect immediately (and in fact had already started in 1990 to impact temperatures from that point on). The specific text re those emissions scenarios in that IPCC link is:
By 2100 the world will have changed in ways that are difficult to imagine – as difficult as it would have been at the end of the 19th century to imagine the changes of the 100 years since. Each storyline assumes a distinctly different direction for future developments, such that the four storylines differ in increasingly irreversible ways. Together they describe divergent futures that encompass a significant portion of the underlying uncertainties in the main driving forces.
On what fucking planet do you think any of that applied to a 2025 projection in 2000?
“That’s because this 0.46C is not a valid number worth responding to. Yes – it is accurate arithmetic based on what one might call cherrypicked data points.”
You get that people?
1) When JSafe eyeballed a trend and projected it to .7C (incorrectly), well that was proof that Overt was wrong because it was clear that the IPCC Prediction was correct.
2) But when I use the ACTUAL DATA to show that his eyeballed conclusion was incorrect, suddenly *I* am cherrypicking data- the Data that he originally used (incorrectly).
3) Point blank, if the IPCC predictions were correct, we would be above the .4C we are at today- which is projected to be at .46 if we continue to follow the line. Because, as I said earlier, the low end of the temperature predictions were based on REDUCED CO2 emissions that were far exceeded.
Again, I didn’t choose this data. JSafe did. He chose the IPCC 2000 SAR. He chose the prediction of 1990 – 2025. He chose to say that when projected to 2025, it shows a .7C.
But when I correct his math, suddenly it is “mumble mumble noise”. Does anyone doubt that had I made that objection when he first tried using that data, he’d have called shenanigans?
“Oh – and where in that 2001 report are the different emissions scenarios specifically and quantitatively tied to large projected temperature changes in a short timeframe like 1990-2025.”
I mean it only says in the same paragraph that JSafe pulled this data, that “SRES scenarios with the highest emissions
result in the largest projected temperature increases.” And here we are, with emissions at the high end of the scenarios (3rd highest overall, out of 7 scenarios + reality = 8) and yet the temperature change is barely reaching the bottom band.
“On what fucking planet do you think any of that applied to a 2025 projection in 2000?”
It is fucking hilarious that JSafe is now questioning the conclusions of a prediction that HE CITED. This is what I said below: JSafe isn’t scientific. When his orthodoxy is questioned, he changes his facts to fit his beliefs.
Perhaps we all do, but the only one who has been proven to do it is him.
For the record, here you can see the emissions scenarios for the 2000 report here:
https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/03/sres-en.pdf
Note the A1T scenario has annual emissions of 10.3 GtC/yr. The A1B is 12.6.
I do appreciate that those links to the 2000 IPCC reports made you look at those actual sources. Many commenters here wouldn’t do that. So maybe there is hope that we can engage on this issue.
And here you can see our current emissions:
https://www.co2.earth/global-co2-emissions
2020 was a dip, of course. But we have been consistantly at 40 Gt CO2, which when divided by 3.664 (to get Gt Carbon) puts you at 11.05 GtC, which is what the IPCC measurements are denominated in.
Here is the 1990 SAR:
https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/03/ipcc_far_wg_I_spm.pdf
Notice that they predict that under “Business as Usual” scenarios, we can expect a rate of increase of about .3C per decade (.2C – .5C certainty range). That “business as usual” scenario predicted that we would hit 400PPM in 2018- we actually hit it around 2015. So we were tracking worse than the scenarios presented in 1990.
Notice that they predict that under “Business as Usual” scenarios, we can expect a rate of increase of about .3C per decade (.2C – .5C certainty range).
I don’t understand why you seem to think that is a huge gotcha error.
As you say – that was the first report on what was also a very new data gathering project for a new science – heavily dependent on computer technology simply to deal with the number of equations and data involved in atmospheric and oceanographic data involving multiple scientific disciples. If 30 years of hindsight doesn’t create a whole shitload of feedback and improvement, then someone ain’t asking difficult questions.
Eight years before that 1990 report, I can find a summary of the then current state of ‘climate research’ – in the 1982 edition of the Yearbook of Science and the Future published by Encyclopedia Britannica.
The long period changes of climate accounting for the ice ages have been ascribed to the drift of continents and variations in the Earth’s orbit around the Sun. There is still no satisfactory theory or set of theories that can account for climatic fluctuations over periods of decades or centuries. An increasing number of scientists are working on the formulation of such theories.
The well-recognized steady increase of atmospheric CO2 is expected, according to most experts, to lead to a warming of the lower atmosphere. Scientists at the Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Program at Princeton and elsewhere have tentatively concluded that a doubling of atmospheric CO2 (to about 650 ppm) [currently 421 ppm – which is the highest concentration for the last 14 million years] would lead to a temperature increase of 2-3 C with perhaps double that at higher latitudes. In 1980, NCAR was unable to verify the predicted warning of the atmosphere and surmised that the thermal inertia of oceans [nb by me – oceans are not an insignificant irrelevant portion of the Earth’s surface exposed to either sunlight or atmospheric CO2] is likely to delay the warming expected to occur as a result of the effects of CO2. They reiterated concerns that the current atmospheric models do not yet adequately incorporate interactions between the atmosphere and oceans.
The consequences of a globally averaged warming on the total environment are not known or understood with any degree of confidence but they are thought to be important.
That’s pretty much it. Humility is ‘important’ esp for science. Sometimes it’s all you got.
“I don’t understand why you seem to think that is a huge gotcha error.”
What do you mean? Here is what I said: “And it is noteworthy that every time we look back 20 years to that time’s latest IPCC consensus, we find that their predictions were wrong.”
Then you flew off the handle and went “Nyuh uh! the predictions of the current temp is right in the fucking middle of the projection.”
I don’t need a fucking gotcha. I need to show that if we look 20 years after these predictions were made, they were consistently wrong. And they have been consistently wrong.
They were wrong in 1990
They were wrong in 2000
They are likely to be wrong in 2010 and 2020 too.
And it is self evidently clear why this is important. Folks like yourself are calling people like me science deniers and selfish because we don’t blindly accept the catastrophic predictions of a discipline that has been consistently wrong for over 30 years. Their models have been falsified again and again. And yet every time a new one is released, your like are here parading confused little girls in front of the world who scream “HOW DARE YOU!”
It would be hilarious how quickly you move from righteous indignation at “unscientific” skeptics to beard-stroking quibbles about how we may be technically right but it doesn’t matter…if it weren’t so infuriating in its dishonesty.
” Humility is ‘important’ esp for science. Sometimes it’s all you got.”
And this is what really is the most infuriating. You (and your like) are anything BUT humble.
Just 24 hours ago you were convinced that you had made a scientific kill shot. Your incorrect read of the data had you convinced that I was *wrong wrong wrong*, and you were smugly declaring that I ought to re-evaluate my beliefs.
But I was right.
And now, without blinking an eye, you are on to totally different arguments. You didn’t sit back with humility and say, “Huh. He is right that all these predictions HAVE been wrong…what does this new data mean to all of my beliefs about climate change that are based on those models?”
You aren’t humble at all. Nor are the people who continue to make incorrect predictions year after year. You will declare me a wrongheaded, overconfident imbecile when you think you have found a mistake, and then turn around and insist it never mattered when you are found the fool.
Holy shit. Massively well stated.
Laws of Nature explain what happens. Theories explain why it happens.
nobody really disagrees about what makes an apple fall from the tree
Absolutely untrue. What makes an apple fall from the tree is one of the most important and least well understood of current scientific controversies.
That the apple, or any object with mass, will “fall” (i.e. be attracted toward other objects with mass) is undisputed, as we all repeat the experiment daily and it has never gone otherwise than as expected.
Why the apple falls is actually unknown, and is the source of no end (so far) of controversy.
Analogously, that the earth’s climate has been warming for the last 50,000 years is relatively (but not completely) undisputed. Why the earth’s climate has been warming is a subject of extreme and widespread controversy, with nothing remotely resembling consensus even among climate scientists.
I say earth’s climate has been warming since the end of the last ice age.
“”A “greenhouse Earth” is a period during which no continental glaciers exist anywhere on the planet.[6] Additionally, the levels of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases (such as water vapor and methane) are high, and sea surface temperatures (SSTs) range from 28 °C (82.4 °F) in the tropics to 0 °C (32 °F) in the polar regions.[7] Earth has been in a greenhouse state for about 85% of its history.[6]””
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_and_icehouse_Earth
We have polar ice caps now so we are considered in icehouse earth. Earth has been icehouse earth only 15% of it’s history.
The liberal’s wealth redistribution grift will not save us.
We have polar ice caps now so we are considered in icehouse earth.
^
Human beings have ONLY existed during an icehouse Earth climate. It is pretty undisputed that we are currently going through a major species extinction event. Which are generally rare events on Earth.
Pick your reason why it is happening. I don’t really care what your reason is. But I also think it is extremely reasonable to assume that humans will become one of the extinct species in this current event. We are a very brittle species in many ways. A region with wet-bulb temperatures around 90F is uninhabitable for us. 89F is the highest seen – in the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean and parts of South Asia. At 95F wet-bulb, we die very quickly – hours. That is so close to current temps that mere heat/humid waves in a warming climate could kill tens of millions in just a few weeks. Can anyone say – supply chain problems?
We are a very brittle species in many ways.
We’re the most successful mammal the world has yet produced, because we are wildly adaptable.
At 95F wet-bulb, we die very quickly – hours.
Summers aren’t getting hotter. Winters are getting less cold.
We’re the most successful mammal the world has yet produced, because we are wildly adaptable.
Or perhaps we are merely clever enough to be more predatory than other species. That is not adaptable. And we will know which when all large species that aren’t currently domesticated basically die off (which they already are and will continue) – and/if climate changes turn into serious headwinds for those domesticated species. Adaptable would mean we can eat something else. Otherwise – we simply lose our food supply and die.
Summers aren’t getting hotter. Winters are getting less cold.
That is an assertion. Got a cite of evidence that is not just regional? In the tropics – there is no winter or summer – just wet season and dry season. Those areas are most likely to become completely uninhabitable and deadly for humans – and not just because of wet-bulb temps. Temperate climates will initially become desert – for centuries – and then something else (probably return of forest and byebye grasslands). Polar region changes are not about seasons but about what happens at ‘tipping points’ – freeze/thaw point of water, release of methane at permafrost/tundra
The IPCC’s own reports show that the average temperature increases are the result of increased nighttime and wintertime temperatures, not increases in summer days. Those reports also show that temperatures are increasing in temperate and polar regions and not in the tropics.
Cite evidence from an actual IPCC report not vague assertions from unnamed unnameable ‘sources’ (which for commenters/authors here is always going to have some agenda). I’m very well aware that it is polar regions in particular where the tipping point changes are occurring. The temperate regions where a combo of ‘warming’ events and ‘cooling events caused by warming elsewhere’ (expansion of the polar jet stream). And the tropical regions where the main concerns right now are about weather events and sea level rise.
And I’m not interested in arguing about whether IPCC is some overly politicized institution obsessed with hyperventilating an admitted-by-them inconsequential change (the 1.5C change post-industrialization) that is upsetting to autistic Swedish teenage girls. Yes they are. So fucking what.
You’re making an assertion about actual scientific evidence. CITE that source and we might be able to have a conversation that is not about political tribalism.
“wet-bulb, wet-bulb”
JFree learned a new term today. Was it from the IPCC Climate Catastrophe Word-a-Day calendar?
That is so close to current temps that mere heat/humid waves in a warming climate could kill tens of millions in just a few weeks.
This is never, ever going to happen. Even if you get the perfect storm situation where a densely populated, overheated area suffers a catastrophic event that will disrupt power/environmental control for weeks on end you’re going to end up with a refugee crisis and/or mass evacuation into neighboring, more temperate areas.
The early stages of COVID should be instructive: it’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future. It’s tougher still when you insist on being unrealistic about human behavior in order to gin up a greater sense of panic.
a catastrophic event that will disrupt power/environmental control for weeks on end you’re going to end up with a refugee crisis and/or mass evacuation into neighboring, more temperate areas.
If that event is wet-bulb temp problem, there really is NO ‘air conditioning’ and ‘create millions of tiny micro-climates’ (meaning indoors v outdoors) solution. There is obviously never going to be any mass evacuation of tens/hundreds of millions – hundreds/thousands of miles – in hours.
Even a pure Hayekian analysis runs up against the reality that there is no ‘individual preference’ for enduring high wet-bulb temps. There can be a preference in the yellow/green/white areas of the above chart – but not the red/black areas. In black – dead is the outcome. In red, EVERYONE is just one step removed from knowing that in black zones dead is the outcome.
Fuck a Rothbard/Rockwell analysis of same. They are in fact nihilists and their sole purpose is to deny/ignore a potential problem and turn the public realm of knowledge into bullshit, lies, relativistic arguments, accusations of whether weather is woke or not, and a bunch of FYTW games because they are all nihilistic assholes.
So we would be better off if the whole planet was freezing cold all year long?
It is pretty undisputed that we are currently going through a major species extinction event.
Absurd. No one has any idea how many species there are – not even within an order of magnitude. So to say we are having a major extinction event is pure fabrication.
re: “It is pretty undisputed that we are currently going through a major species extinction event.”
Actually, that is a hotly disputed hypothesis. Yes, there was a significant species extinction during the Age of Exploration as invasive species were introduced into new habitats. But the rate of confirmed extinctions since is down sharply – back to about our best estimates of the pre-Exploration rates of extinction.
You are also astonishingly wrong in your claim that humans are a “brittle species”. On the contrary, humans can survive in some of the most extreme environments on the planet. For example, as long as you stay properly hydrated, humans can survive indefinitely at 120F (with at least one researcher claiming that 140F is possible indefinitely). Granted, staying hydrated at those temperatures is not easy buy your claim that “we die within hours” at 95F are flat false.
“We are a very brittle species in many ways”
Jesus wept can there be any better illustration of just how many obviously wrong things that JSafe will just arrogantly state as fact?
From scorching desert to frozen tundra there is hardly a climate zone on the planet where humans aren’t surviving and even thriving. As species go, humans are the most successful organism on the planet. A planet that has been teeming with life for billions of years, and there is barely an inch of land we haven’t colonized and barely an inch of ocean we cannot traverse.
The idea that humans or humanity is brittle is hyperbolic nonsense. I expect nothing less from JSafe.
Our food supply is dependent on one family of grass seeds (Graminae) – regardless of the habitat we reside in. And specifically a dozen or fewer annual (which require more consistent growing conditions from season to season) species from that family. Ignore direct temperature vulnerability. Do you know the impact of climate change on those dozen or so species? Or are you just waving your hands claiming our supposed ‘adaptability’ (and how adaptable are we when we depend on so few species when our entire existence as a species has occurred within a very narrow set of climate conditions) means that doesn’t matter so we can ignore everything real about the world. blubblub blubblubblub.
“Our food supply is dependent on one family of grass seeds (Graminae) – regardless of the habitat we reside in.”
Hey look guys, JSafe is changing the subject. It now isn’t that we are a brittle species, it is that we are DEPENDENT on a brittle FAMILY of plants.
For the record we are not “dependent” on a tiny number of cereal grains. The world predominantly USES a small number of cereal grains due to the massive efficiencies they provide. We can also use potatoes and tomatoes, and pigs. As well as one of the other 12,000 species of plants in that brittle little family you talk about. The extent to which one of those thousands of food sources becomes a major source of our diet depends on many things, including the climate of the region we try to grow.
“Do you know the impact of climate change on those dozen or so species?”
Oh look, JSafe, having been caught making loony toons assertions, now drops back to demanding answers to his very scary questions. Of course, they are the stupid questions of someone without any imagination.
JSafe would probably be shocked to learn that 600 years ago, humans had already become very successful at growing many different crops in many different climates. As early as the 1400’s the Incans were successfully growing their food in 3 radically different climates. From the 10,000 foot peaks of the Andes, to one of the harshest deserts in the world, to the rain forests of the Amazon, humans who didn’t understand genetics, disease theory, or pretty much any natural mechanism were able to adapt and thrive in radically different and harsh environments.
But no, JSafe wants us to believe that 12,000 years of agricultural progress was just a lucky break. Despite life THRIVING on this planet for hundreds of millions of years, it was just luck that humans managed to go from a few thousand to BILLIONS in a cosmic instant.
Now at the height of human civilization; when we have mastered animal and plant husbandry; when we have mapped the genome of thousands of organisms; when we are on the verge of designing custom plants from scratch. NOW JSafe insists are a brittle little species WHO WILL GO EXTINCT because we show less ability to adapt to different climates than a stone-age civilization that possibly didn’t even have a written language.
Your fear mongering isn’t just wrong, JSafe, it is insane. It is the type of apocalyptic hysteria reserved to the nuttiest of religious nuts.
It is pretty undisputed that we are currently going through a major species extinction event.
Except for the recency bias. We know more about all the species right now, so comparing the last 200 years to the previous 200 million years makes it exceedingly tough to compare the relative rates of species extinction.
It’s the large species extinctions (or the would-be-extinct-but-we’ve-got-zoos-so-everything-will-be-fine-run-along-now) that matter most to our own future.
They’re like the Amish. They picked a date before which there is no history that needs to ever be considered.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m 100% certain that man’s pollution is most likely screwing stuff up, and almost certainly for the worse (as far as current living species are concerned).
But to completely ignore facts like it has been warmer before, with higher CO2. To assume without question that the global temperature circa 1850 (or so) is *the* Earth’s one true temperature. To never consider whether a warmer planet may long term be beneficial, assume only negative.
And worst of all, the use the climate change problem as cover for redistributive economics and political power.
Consensus is fine, but science isn’t a democracy. As soon as new facts disprove a theory, it doesn’t matter how many people believed in it.
Once upon a time anyways.. Today the earth is in a climate emergency and it seems no amount of F’En obvious reality will change that for far too many people who just keep believing. The (Anti-Reality) crowd.
“Nevertheless, the researchers conclude that “if opposition to the consensus is driven by an illusion of understanding and if that opposition leads to actions that are dangerous to those who do not share in the illusion, then it is incumbent on society to try to change minds in favor of the scientific consensus.”
That “if” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. I am not sure it can handle the weight.
On the other hand, granting the above assertion is true, it is incumbent on the institutions of society to present in an open and transparent fashion, do not act like they know more than they actually do, do not lie – EVER, and accept that they cannot get 100% agreement.
I mena outright inferring consensus is the goal of science is wrong. Questions are the key to science. That’s how science evolves.
I was doing a devil’s advocate here. As I said, that “if” is doing a lot work in presuming the thesis is correct.
That being said, a large part of the problem is the hubris and activism of the expert class abusing the public’s trust.
“Questions are the key to science. That’s how science evolves.”
Like questioning whether gravity is real? Are you ready to step off of the 59th floor to test this?
PEOPLE WHO THINK LIKE THIS ARE OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY!!!
How about the reality of the evidence of our senses? And then, such evidence as is provided by methodical analysis of instrumentally-provided amplifiers, i.e., scientific tools? “Questions”, my ass! And how about the HUMILITY needed to accept the help of “standing on the shoulders of giants” who have gone before us? Which often results in “consensus”?
I suspect that I’m addressing a VERY thick wall here, JesseBahnFuhrer, because you seem to have ZERO humility! Scientists and other humble people pose (experimental and other-natured) questions to the universe, humbly, and look for data-driven results/answers! You, lacking humility, aren’t qualified to do so, honestly!
Like questioning whether gravity is real?
Yes.
https://physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity
Alan D. Sokal
Reality is becoming VERY problematized!!! If only we weren’t ALL so damned SMART, Reality would be MUCH less problematized!!!
From the above source… This is VERY impotent!!! “In quantum gravity, as we shall see, the space-time manifold ceases to exist as an objective physical reality; geometry becomes relational and contextual; and the foundational conceptual categories of prior science — among them, existence itself — become problematized and relativized. This conceptual revolution, I will argue, has profound implications for the content of a future postmodern and liberatory science.”
Indeed – in the end quantum mechanics is just another series of metaphors.
Metaphors with a mathematical foundation.
Can you prove it?
FYI, the cited Alan D. Sokal work was posted to “Social Text” (and they published it!!!) as a spoof-proof that MUCH of this “critical analysis” bullshit from the PC-literary folks is just utter bullshit and foolishness!!! Reality is now problematized!!!
“”Like questioning whether gravity is real? Are you ready to step off of the 59th floor to test this?””
Exactly, but you don’t have to do such an extreme test.
Dr Fauci lied several times, but they were all “noble lies” so they were OK.
NOT.
“Noble lies—small untruths—yield unpredictable outcomes. Nietzsche once wrote, “Not that you lied to me, but that I no longer believe you, has shaken me.” Public health messaging is predicated on trust, which overcomes the enormous complexity of the scientific literature, creating an opportunity to communicate initiatives effectively. Still, violation of this trust renders the communication unreliable. When trust is shattered, messaging is no longer clear and straightforward, and instead results in the audience trying to reverse-engineer the statement based on their view of the speaker’s intent. Simply put, noble lies can rob confidence from the public, leading to confusion, a loss of credibility, conspiracy theories, and obfuscated policy.
Noble lies are a trap. We cannot predict the public’s behavior, and loss of trust is devastating.
[essay on Fauci’s noble lies, Kerrington Powell and Vinay Prasad, as seen on Slate.com]
Fauci authorized the torture of puppies. I can’t believe he wasn’t fired immediately once that came to light. Don’t liberals care about puppies?
In any case, most of us do suffer from various forms of cognitive overconfidence such as the “illusion of explanatory depth.” We actually think we know how many of the mechanisms and processes we interact with every day actually operate.
Speak for yourself, Bailey. Based on your take on climate change, I suspect many in your audience are much smarter than you.
The government should’ve tested and contact traced more to stop the spread of climate change
Or they need to prescribe more anti-anxiety meds. I understand those work miracles for climate change.
Who would have thunk Nardz would end up channeling David Wallace-Wells?
Someone missed the joke
topics of evolution, the Big Bang, nuclear power, genetically modified foods, vaccination and homeopathy, and climate change.
NO FAIR! YOU LIBS PICKED THESE TO MAKE CONSERVATIVES LOOK BAD!
Stick to your real area of expertise: economic ignorance.
Conservatives are against GMOs and nuclear power and are into homeopathy?
And until like a year and a half ago, weren’t most anti-vaxers some flavor of leftist?
Well, there are two main types of anti-vaxxers and both are idiotic.
There are the few thousand mercury alarmists that wrongly believe it causes autism.
Then there are the millions of conservative idiots who wrongly believe the COVID vaccine is a NWO plot to decrease the population size via a Bill Gates type silent killer dose.
Once again – conservatives win the Bigger Idiot Award just like the Creation Science Young Earth idiots that fill the GOP.
Yeah, I have encountered exactly one person who believes that to be the case with covid vaccines. Most objecting just think that they are poorly tested and fairly ineffective, which is absolutely true, particularly with omicron variants.
^
You expect buttplug to be honest?
I expect him to rape small children and advocate for Marxism.
turd lies; it’s what turd does.
Truth.
He also rapes small children.
Ignore all the evidence of excess death corresponding eerily well to vaccine rollouts, affecting age groups that had no problems fighting off covid……
Not sure how many believe *that*. Although I ultimately chose to get the J&J vaccine (because otherwise I might get fired from my 100 % work-at-home job), I was hesitant for what I felt were very cogent reasons, which I articulated at the time in emails arguments with friends.
E.g.,
“I’m not anti-vaccine in general, and I understand the science of a vaccine at an advance layman’s level. What I don’t trust is a rushed vaccine jammed through the various processes in record time under emergency pressures. People and companies and governments will cut corners to make a deadline. People will get hurt. For low-risk people (remember, for 30% of COVID infections, the symptoms are simply not noticeable, and for another 30% or so, the symptoms are very mild) the vaccine side-effects may be worse than getting COVID.
“Flu vaccines, MMR vaccines, polio vaccines, etc. were developed patiently (pun intended?) over years and well tested, with side-effects being very rare. I’m just not sure the same can be said of whatever Pfizer, et al., are churning out.
“Maybe to put it another way: I think I’d rather (personally) take my chances with nature’s virus than with the politicians and corporate folks who seem very intent on forcing me to take their shots knowing full well that they’ve rushed the process.
AND
I get my annual flu vaccine, but admit that I will not be rushing to get in line for a COVID vaccination, for reasons hinted at by the last Reason article I sent out: mostly I don’t trust a rushed-out, hastily approved vaccine to be any safer than the last few times we rushed out a pandemic vaccine. Especially given the extremely low risk of the virus itself actually doing me any significant harm…the cure may indeed be worse than the disease in such a case.
We can look toward some past experiences, and ask ourselves “how will it be any different this time?” And realize that every time we’re told “it’s different this time”…they were wrong. I expect to hear almost verbatim arguments as to the safety and efficacy of some future COVID vaccine.
In 2009, the H1N1 “swine flu” was a considered a pandemic…it ended up being a non-event (unlike in 2017-18, when 60-90k Americans died from the H1N1 flu). Many people were hurt by the rushed and forced vaccines produced at that time.
In 1976, an outbreak of the swine flu, influenza A virus subtype H1N1 at Fort Dix, New Jersey caused one death, hospitalized 13, and led to a mass immunization program. After the program began, the vaccine was associated with an increase in reports of Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS), which can cause paralysis, respiratory arrest, and death. The immunization program was ended after approximately 25% of the population of the United States had been administered the vaccine. Again, the vaccine had been rushed through, paid for by government, indemnified by government, and jabbed into people. FOR NOTHING!
Does anyone really debate GMO any more? 70% or more of food is genetically modified. Anti-GMO must be a tiny percent of us kind of like the mercury in vaccine alarmists.
Same with nuclear electric power. Obama supported Vogtle here in Georgia and the French love it.
So the really juicy topics are the origin of species and universe, and AGW – all of which conservatives are dead wrong on.
Now, if you want to debate what to do about AGW that is a wide open topic. This climate bill Biden just signed is lame and wastes resources.
Opposition to GMO food is incredibly massive. As far as I know, it’s still impairing the distribution and planting of ‘golden rice’.
Also, 100% of our foods are genetically modified by humans. It’s just the genetic modifications caused by selective breeding/domestication are apparently okay. It’s just the ones where *we actually know what we’re doing* that are the problem.
Didn’t you ever see Attack of the Killer Tomatoes as a kid?
Also, 100% of our foods are genetically modified by humans.
Indeed. Pretty much the only plant in our diet that existed 10,000 years ago is fava beans.
Hence greenhouse gas!
Big meanie conservatives went back in time to start global warming 10,000 years ago!
Well selecting for genes that already exist within the cultivar isn’t exactly the same as inserting genes from other species.
Fair point.
True enough, but that ignores the random mutations.
They aren’t quite the same thing, and moving a gene from one cultivar to another in the same species is much less likely to have unintended consequences than doing the same thing by selective breeding. In many other cases, what is being done is gene silencing, using normal regulators of gene expression such as RNA interference, to reduce the activity of genes. For example, reducing expression of polyphenolate oxidase (responsible for browning of fruits and vegetables) in apples or potatoes. Not that such details matter to anti-GMO activists, many of whom are simply using GMOs as a proxy for corporate agriculture.
But moving genes between species isn’t as different or unusual as most people think. The process, horizontal gene transfer, is ubiquitous in single celled organisms, and not unusual in multicellular organisms. see https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070308220454.htm
It happens all the time and its use in genetic engineering is not inherently different from gene transfer in nature. In fact, we use some of the same mechanisms, such as employing agrobacterium to transfer genes into plants.
Of course, this doesn’t mean GMOs are inherently safe. If I move the genes and control elements needed to express ricin to a plant, that plant will become poisonous. But that will happen regardless of how the genes get moved, in the lab or in the wild. Judge GMOs by what they do, not how they were made, same as any other cultivar or variety.
Thanks for your contribution.
Does CRISPR use processes that could make the results more problematic? From your explanation I would expect not, but I’ve read that it goes beyond what could occur naturally.
pig and elephant DNA just won’t splice
Does anyone really debate GMO any more?
Yes. And it’s not conservatives, which is the point. Remember how you started this thread pretending these were all conservative things?
Obama supported Vogtle here in Georgia and the French love it.
Which is why our country is quickly filling up with it, what with the Democrats in charge of both Congress and the White House. Right? CA must have nothing but nuclear power. Right?
“”Does anyone really debate GMO any more? “”
Yes, going GMO free is popular among the liberals.
And is required in order to be “Certified Organic.”
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
“So the really juicy topics are the origin of species and universe, and AGW – all of which conservatives are dead wrong on”
Hate to break it to you but have you seen the latest articles on what the new Webb telescope is revealing about the Big Bang theory?
The Big Bang is a really misleading name for the expanding universe that we see. We see an infinite universe expanding into itself. The name Big Bang conveys the idea of a firecracker exploding at a time and a place – with a center. The universe doesn’t have a center. The Big Bang happened everywhere at once and was a process happening in time, not a point in time. We know this because 1) we see galaxies rushing away from each other, not from a central point and 2) we see the heat that was left over from early times, and that heat uniformly fills the universe.
https://webb.nasa.gov/content/features/bigBangQandA.html
That interview was before the latest set of images that the JWST produced. I would love to see what he thinks about the current controversy over the possibility of the Big Bang being not just a misleading name.
Conservatives?
The left are lysenkoists to the last man, having a very deep and unshakeable belief in the most incorrect interpretation of Darwin’s theory one can have.
Likewise with physics–including the Big Bang.
The left hates nuclear power, GMO food, vaccination(except for covid and monkeypox), practices homeopathy, and has a view of climatology that is impervious to new information.
How could conservatives look worse that your army of luddites?
Well, this explains journalism on COVID and climate change very nicely.
FATALITY
well, not necessarily incompetence, more like religious faith
How convenient, just when a bunch of amateurs and outsiders are tearing the CDC, etc. a new one.
The incompetents most convinced of their rightness and brilliance seem to be drawn to government public health bureaucracy.
Bazinga.
I’m sure this study is wrong.
Hey ist not like theres a replication crisis Goin on in the humanities, you can’t just get anything published.
We understand to a micro degree what the planet’s climate will do in the next 300 years, we know exactly how to fix it, and we want to be left alone while we do it.
We understand to a micro degree what the planet’s climate will do in the next 300 years, we know exactly how to fix it
Which is in no way symptomatic of overestimating one’s ability to understand and control things.
There’s nothing like paying tribute to a bunch of shaman in the government because they told you they could fix the weather.
The Calculus is not strong in this commentariat.
As surely as Funeral Science advances one microdeath at a time, climate keeps warming by over a microdegree an hour.
Calculus says the government can fix the weather?
Does Square=Circle mean you think pi = 4 ?
Did you think that was witty?
Libertarians are all sexless male economists, engineers and computer programmers. Also, libertarians don’t get calculus.
To be fair, I’ve never seen any IPCC predictions with sigfigs beyond a millidegree.
if
opposition toblind acceptance of the consensus is driven by an illusion of understanding and if thatoppositionblind acceptance leads to actions that are dangerous to those who do not share in the illusion, then it is incumbent onsocietyindividuals to try to change minds in favor ofthescientificconsensusskepticism.FTFY
Indeed. People who think they understand incredibly complex things like climate and respiratory pandemics well enough that they definitely know the answers and what everyone needs to do about it are full of shit and should never be taken at their word.
You can’t have a debate if people who are wrong aren’t allowed to voice their views and you can’t have science without a healthy debate.
People who think they understand incredibly complex things like climate and respiratory pandemics well enough that they definitely know the answers and what everyone needs to do about it are full of shit and should never be taken at their word.
Especially when those people can’t explain how their car or their refrigerator works, but insist that people who do understand the ICE and refrigeration can’t possibly understand climate or respiratory pandemics. I am not an expert, but I understand at least the basics of all 4.
The only person who truly understands ICE is AOC.
That it goes in the glass before the bourbon?
Bourbon is racist. But tasty.
Now if the bitch behind the bar would just shut up.
She should turn to porn. It would be the first useful thing she’s ever done with her mouth.
Let’s leave monarchy out of this!
AOC drinking bourbon. Shesh! No way. Peach schnaps maybe.
Hey the Carnot Cycle is hard, then try reversing it?
Dangerous actions like trying to ban more productive and environmentally friendly crop varieties, refusing vaccination against dangerous infectious diseases, or rejecting a safe technology for generating electric power.
I haven’t read the linked study, but… this topic of vaccination… are they talking about the meta concept of vaccination that presumes that:
An administered a vaccine that has been proven to not only be effective, but safe to a high degree compared to the cost-effects of the disease being vaccinated against then vaccination is “good”.
Or were they talking about A relatively new vaccine that was rushed through clinical trials, has had its safety data hidden from the public, the makers of which are immune from lawsuits, and said vaccine wasn’t anywhere near as effective as we were told for a disease that was almost entirely survivable by the vast majority of the population except for a cohort of very aged and immuno-compromised people?
Because those are two very…VERY different things.
AND you are forced to take it .
Not if you value your life enough to quit any job that tried to force it on you.
(or were smart enough to have retired)
And “The Big Bang”? For fuck sakes, the Big Bang is called a “theory” for a reason. It’s because it isn’t proven. There are no-shit really real for reals disputed in the scientific community over the big bang theory. And I’m not talking about Creationists vs. Cosmology, I’m talking about Cosmologists vs Cosmologists who say, “mmm, not so fast…”
These researchers seem to be basing their scientific facts on a consensus basis. Just because both Brian Stelter AND Rachel Maddow reported it, doesn’t make it true.
Hey, I have something in a vial I’d like to inject into your arm?
What will it do?
Keep ya from gittin’ the fever?
Yeah… I um….
ANTIVAXXER!!1!1! ANTIVAXXER!!1!!!
It is the prevailing theory of the evolution of the universe that accounts for many observed phenomena but not all, and, unlike some popular conceptions and what this article says, doesn’t address the actual beginning of the universe.
What this means is that an alternate theory has to account for all the same observations and hopefully some of the remaining mysteries.
But I doubt the participants were thinking about the weeds of inflation vs. cyclic or whatever. It’s a very pop-sci way of addressing that question and I’m not sure I would have included it. But we know what they meant.
It is the prevailing theory of the evolution of the universe
No, it isn’t. Hawking disproved it. We’re back to “we probably can’t ever know.”
No. As I said, there are many speculative proposals for the beginning of the universe, including Hawking’s, but generally the Big Bang refers to the stuff that happened shortly thereafter (the initial expansion), a theory that matches up with many observations.
This test seems to play into the popular confusion that somehow science has a prevailing theory about how or why the universe began. And you’re right, that may not be possible to know, but that’s no reason to stop trying.
generally the Big Bang refers to the stuff that happened shortly thereafter (the initial expansion)
It does now since the theory of an initial singularity has been disproven.
This test seems to play into the popular confusion that somehow science has a prevailing theory about how or why the universe began
You just now declared this to be “the prevailing theory of the evolution of the universe.”
Cite?
Tony
August.19.2022 at 5:27 pm
It is the prevailing theory of the evolution of the universe
And you’re right, that may not be possible to know, but that’s no reason to stop trying.
Who said anything about stopping trying? Or do you mean “stop asking questions”.
I wonder if someone suggested we stop asking questions because it increased hesitancy about a thing?
That the observable universe is expanding is still a broadly agreed upon fact. But the original notion of the big bang where the entire universe originated from a singularity is not so much the current theory.
If cosmologists have abandoned the term “Big Bang,” I’ve not been notified. But If they are using it, they’re referring to the initial expansion, leaving the actual origin to where it’s always been, in speculative models, none of which having better evidence than the other.
They are moving away from it, because it’s a very sill name. But it’s so embedded in popular consciousness that it’s hard to change.
… I’ve not been notified.
Pompous ass.
A theory is a hypothesis plus proof. It’s not yet a fact because every little thing hasn’t been explained. The math breaks down at Planck time.
The scientific consensus initially mocked the Big Bang theory as being too religious and harkening back to pre-scientific theories of Divine Creation. But then the evidence piled up, the cosmic background radiation was detected, and the Big Bang became scientific, and contrasted to religious literalists who believed God made the Universe in 6 days, some 6,000 years ago.
So despite explicitly linking to the article debunking Dunning-Kruger as a statistical artifact rather than a real effect, the author goes on to praise a “new” study which makes precisely the same statistical mistakes.
Look, just stop trying to think for yourself, okay?
If only there were a name for such phenomena
This seems reasonable:
Uncertainty is inherent to science. A constant striving toward a better understanding of the world requires a willingness to amend or abandon previous truths, and disagreements among scientists abound. Sometimes, however, evidence is so consistent, overwhelming, or clear that a scientific consensus forms. Despite consensus by scientific communities on a handful of critical issues, many in the public maintain anti-consensus views.
Certainly, my experience wrt debating evolution, for example, is that I have never encountered a creationist (or any other antievolutionist) who could actually explain the theory of evolution. They’d typically repeat a few standard creationist (including intelligent design) arguments which continued to show that they either didn’t know or didn’t understand it, though some definitely knew and understood the anti-evolution arguments they made, albeit not knowing why the arguments were wrong – e.g., “how could we evolve from monkeys if there are still monkeys?”, or “but the bacterial flagellum!”
Why bother getting into conversations like that? Must everyone think the same things you think?
No-one has to think the way I think. But debating people I disagree with is good intellectual discipline. in refining and checking my own poisition. And occasionally I might be wrong – and I am more likely to find that out than if I just debated people who agreed with me.
Why did you bother to reply btw?
People can believe whatever horseshit they want as long as they promise not to vote or run for public office.
How very liberal of you.
Liberal has nothing to do with it. I don’t like being hurt by other people’s ignorance. Do you?
No, but that doesn’t mean I think Climate Believers should be barred from voting or holding office.
I didn’t say barred, I said voluntarily agree not to participate in things they are clearly not qualified for.
I thought you people had moved on to outright denying climate change’s existence, since the planet is currently evaporating and scorching beneath us as we speak, and moved on to making other excuses for why we can’t stop burning oil.
I said voluntarily agree not to participate in things they are clearly not qualified for.
And what if they don’t ‘voluntarily agree?’
I thought you people had moved on to outright denying climate change’s existence
Of course you did, because that makes it makes it easier to not address what people are actually saying.
I thought “you people” had moved on to outright denying the existence of money. Right?
Money obviously exists. Or else what am I shoving in strippers’ thongs?
And the point goes “woosh.”
Intimate knowledge of climate science (aka, agreeing with Tony) should be a qualification for holding office? Stupid, thy name is Tony.
Do you live up to that promise yourself? Because your comment history demonstrates that you believe rather a lot of horseshit.
I can only aspire to. The point is not to value strong beliefs in the first place.
What a waste of time it would be to be actually devoted to a political party, for example, as if it were a source of wisdom and goodness, rather than an expedient means to an end.
Ironically, the devoutly religious know this better than most.
The point is not to value strong beliefs in the first place.
Except about Climate Change.
When a fact comes along that merits a strong belief, then you can be happy about your certainty.
You could say that the whole point of science is to undermine religious narratives, insofar as the latter dominate people’s notions about how the world works. So, the more you learn, the less religious you’re likely to be, and of course scientists are among the least religious groups out there.
So it’s no surprise that Galileo was locked up, but it’s also interesting that lots of important science was done by monks and stuff. Certainty can lead to the hubris that science will only uncover God’s work, even if in reality it makes God unnecessary.
You could say that the whole point of science is to undermine religious narratives
One could also say that the whole point of science is the exact opposite of that, if one knew something about the history of science.
Science is there to verify religious narratives? Why does it undermine them so often then?
If one knew the history of religious thought, one would realize that it’s characterized by nothing so much as controversy. It was exactly this constant controversy that led to the perceived need for logic and the scientific method, the latter having been developed by various church officials in the late medieval period.
I acknowledged that, but all that ended up happening was modern science disproved many or all of the church doctrines.
I don’t know which you are more ignorant of – science or church doctrines.
In fact, many of the greatest thinkers in science were deeply religious. Most saw no conflict between their scientific and religious views.
In fact, many of the greatest thinkers in science were deeply religious. Most saw no conflict between their scientific and religious views.
Werner Heisenberg, as an example.
I don’t agree with Heisenberg.
Some scientists do hang onto religious beliefs, but my view is that by the time you’re done squeezing religious beliefs so deeply into the gaps that remain in science, you’re not really being a good-faith believer, if you will. Without the ancient fairy tales, what’s the point? It’s just a faint whisper of a worldview that originated by people actually believing that actual magic stuff, probably clung to because we all have trouble giving up the stuff we were taught as children about how the world works.
Most often the motive of people bringing up something like the vague compatibilism of Heisenberg is to conjure an excuse for their own specific beliefs, which of course is not merited.
I don’t agree with Heisenberg.
What, specifically, do you not agree with Heisenberg about? His formulation of the measurement problem?
by the time you’re done squeezing religious beliefs so deeply into the gaps that remain in science, you’re not really being a good-faith believer
You supposedly have a background in philosophy, right?
That means that you should have the basic tools to realize that your argument has now become entirely circular.
You do realize that, right?
Sometimes I think all arguments are ultimately circular.
Sorry for couching the point so deeply: I think you’re rationalizing indefensible religious beliefs by whoring out a dead guy who can’t defend himself, and that’s at least two fallacies.
You can’t know anything else about something that you think you know something about already. Maybe.
Let’s take this word salad and pretend it actually means something.
Let’s pick a church. Let’s pick, say, the Catholic church.
What bits of Catholic doctrine have been disproven by “modern science?”
Be specific, now.
“This wine is actually the blood of a dead person”
This wine is actually the blood of a dead person
Is that actually Catholic doctrine? Or are you finding that you need to spin it a bit in order to make your argument easier?
Let’s start with “a dead person.” Is that the doctrine? That the wine is the blood of “a dead person?”
And just to head you off at the pass for the hundredth time, I’m not a Christian, so spare me your insults.
My understanding is that there has been some disagreement about whether the wine is actually blood or just a metaphor. I’m going to come down on the side of metaphor, but I’m not always up to speed on Catholic pronouncements.
I suppose Jesus is the ultimate unfalsifiable person, what with being both dead and alive, both a human and a deity.
This is all fun and games until you realize that such ridiculous disagreements spilled oceans of blood for many centuries.
I’m not always up to speed on Catholic pronouncements
Yet you’re ready to declare them disproven by “Modern Science.”
This is all fun and games until you realize that such ridiculous disagreements spilled oceans of blood for many centuries.
Probably should exterminate them for the good of society.
Whether science has disproven them or not, they are not playing by the same rules anyway. The point of science is to be rigorous. The point of religious doctrine is to be enforced.
And now you’re accusing me of advocating genocide, when I clearly just explained that genocide is the doing of religion.
That of course is an obvious lie, rather like your own version of transubstantiation.
-jcr
Name three church doctrines disproved by Science
First tell me which is the correct doctrine:
“The pope is infallible”
“The pope is not infallible”
So – you can’t name three doctrines disproved by Science?
Because you’ve been posturing like you could just rattle this stuff right off the top of your head.
You’re like the Rick Perry of Skepticism.
Well, the entire first chapter of the Bible, being concerned with cosmology, is wildly contradicted by current evidence, but then you’re just gonna say it’s metaphorical or something.
What doctrine, Tony? The first chapter of Genesis is neither a doctrine, nor is it primarily concerned with Cosmology. And the order of creation is largely confirmed by Science.
There are 2 different creation sequences in Genesis, btw.
you’re just gonna say it’s metaphorical or something.
I don’t have a strong opinion on the matter, but if I were to say this I would be in perfect agreement with that highly modern, scientific thinker St. Augustine of Hippo.
To loosely quote St. Augustine, how could there have been a day before the sun and moon were created?
I would answer in two ways:
First, that’s a great, deep point. That Augustine guy was a smart cookie. Time is not even defined without a notion of clocks. Not even in special relativity. Time is symmetrical in physics, and for all we know the only reason we can talk about it is because of the mysteriously low entropy of the early universe.
Second, the answer is because the people who wrote Genesis were very primitive and didn’t know any of this.
But think of what a mind like Augustine’s, or Newton’s for that matter, could have accomplished without all the utterly fruitless time they spent on religious matters.
the answer is because the people who wrote Genesis were very primitive and didn’t know any of this
They were talking about something else entirely.
But think of what a mind like Augustine’s, or Newton’s for that matter, could have accomplished without all the utterly fruitless time they spent on religious matters.
They accomplished what they did because of their religion, not in spite of it.
Man, you are a nasty bigot, aren’t you?
And I say this as an atheist myself.
What did I say that was nasty?
Almost everything.
Sometimes I forget, we’re not allowed to talk like adults around religious people.
You come off as the worst kind of smug imbecile. In terms of this article, you are a 1 in both Science and Religion, and rate yourself as a 7
Sticks and stones.
That’s what nasty bigotry is, yes.
You lefturds have a particularly insidious religion, which holds that obedience to the state will create an earthly paradise. We’d all be a whole lot better off if people like you would just fuck off to Venezuela and live with the consequences of implementing your beliefs.
-jcr
“obedience to the state will create an earthly paradise”
I do not believe anything resembling this.
Oh, so you’re aware that obedience to tyrants is a bad thing and you still demand it? That makes you far worse than I had realized.
-jcr
A constant striving toward a better understanding of the world requires a willingness to amend or abandon previous truths…
Except for mask mandates. Those must be brought back to stop new COVID variants. Even though they didn’t work the first time.
Yes, and Ron Bailey is an excellent example: here is someone with a bachelor in philosophy and economics from a third rate university pretending to be able to write authoritatively on scientific issues, constantly getting things wrong, and unable to recognize how out of touch with reality he actually is.
Instead of hysterically lashing out, why don’t you just lay out what bullshit you want to go on believing in spite of the evidence?
Which subject. Which evidence. I’ll play tony.
Do you have a preferred interpretation of the measurement problem?
Measurement can be done to a certain degree but every tool utilized has a slight calibration error. But in general terms many things can be measured.
Okay my turn.
Assuming perfect absorption what is the temp effect of the doubling of carbon and why is it different significantly from the models.
“in general many things can be measured.”
Ah, so the Copenhagen interpretation.
“Assuming perfect absorption what is the temp effect of the doubling of carbon and why is it different significantly from the models.”
I don’t know what you’re referring to that differs significantly from the models (which models?), and I don’t know why I’d assume perfect absorption of anything.
I don’t know what you’re referring to that differs significantly from the models
Reality.
“The models” what though? Climate models are continuously updated, but very generally speaking, modeling the average global temperature effect of increased CO2 has been remarkably good going back many decades.
modeling the average global temperature effect of increased CO2 has been remarkably good going back many decades
Show me the model that this is true of.
I’ll wait.
Here’s a general discussion that should contain what you’re looking for:
https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2943/study-confirms-climate-models-are-getting-future-warming-projections-right/
My apologies for referring to NASA instead of some random crackpot blog.
My apologies for referring to NASA instead of some random crackpot blog.
Something actually scientific rather than a press release from NASA’s Climate Change center would have been nice, but in the end this is just the same “we said it would get warmer, like it’s been doing for the last 50,000 years, and it did!”
So your contention is that NASA is lying.
So your contention is that NASA is lying.
Within the very narrow bounds this press release has set for itself, it is not untrue.
Ahh. So you are ignorant. Thanks for playing.
Ignorant of the name of the shitty blog you got your incoherent talking point from, perhaps.
I gave you a direct question and assumption that an answer can provide. Why I used the term assuming perfect absorption. The answer is 0.7 degC of all factors held constant. Models predict an average of 1.3 degC from a doubling of carbon based on feedback loops based largely on assumptions from temp fitting their models. This is why models are non predictive in future years as the temp growth is largely based on tuning parameters. The tuning parameters vary wildly between model sets, as they are used to solely fit to past temp records. One model will assume a slowing of warming from particulates on the air while another will show a growth value over 1.
Virtually ever model assumes a combined feedback loop > 1 based on solely adjusting carbon which is by definition a non stable system. Which we know climate is not.
Do you want me to continue or admit you are ignorant?
Is this going back 100 years? Because current warming is at 1.1 degC over 100 years ago.
I’m talking about the models.
Just admit youre ignorant already. There is a reason they returned every 5 years. There is also a reason they changed to deviations per year instead of total temp for predictions > 5 years. All the models demonstrate an exponential warming effect. Which it is not based on model prediction vs the last 40 years.
Let us switch gears.
How is average global temperature calculated. Is there a delta in temp growth between urban stations and rural stations. If so what is the UHI value to correct the global measurement.
They are re tuned*
You would be better off consulting the science for these questions. I would hate to get something wrong.
Nobody really knows the values for ECS/TCS
^
This is what ignorance-covered-by-a-phonetically-memorized-bluff looks like.
Tell us, Tony – what is your preferred interpretation of the measurement problem?
I don’t really have one. I try to be fairly rigorous about not declaring allegiances just for the sake of it when lacking evidence one way or another.
But it’s all in good fun, and some interpretations that are incredibly stupid, like many worlds, at least provide tools for guiding the imagination.
I don’t really have one.
Then why were you trying to gotcha Jesse just now for not necessarily having one?
He tried to gotcha first, and if he had said that, I would have praised his enlightened willingness not to hold a belief about something.
Problem is my gotcha proved you dont even understand first theories on climate.
If I don’t understand, I can always consult NASA or whatever.
Climate models have been so good, even going back decades, that the field was recognized by a Nobel Prize in 2021.
No you can’t consult nasa since you don’t understand the basic science. You can only blindly repeat talking points.
Do you even recognize the ongoing discussions in climate science? That there is not an actual uniform belief. Most of what is repeated by media is the Mann directed version of the science which was found to be built on terrible science involving treemometers and a filtering algorithm that weighted data sets based on Manns initial assumption of temp growth.
I recognize that you have talking points from some crackpot denier blog, which you refuse to link to.
Actually, he asked you what subject you’d like to prove your superior knowledge on. You responded with “Do you have a preferred interpretation of the measurement problem?”
It turns out he did. Unlike you.
I even asked him the most basic climate question I could to see if he understood basic theories.
Every day is this article.
Tony, if you have been commenting here as long as you have and think you have a better understanding of science than at least quite a few of the regulars here, you really are hopeless.
Maybe I do, maybe I don’t. I’ll try not to get ahead of my skis.
Remind me, aren’t you still a believer in the the “Russia collusion” story?
Most of your fellow lefturds still buy that bullshit.
-jcr
Tony, your problem is the same as that of so many progressives: what you believe isn’t even wrong, it is simply not a scientific hypothesis at all.
That’s true of most political beliefs. Rather, it should be, except we’re constantly having to defend the results of science from people who think they are permitted to reject them if they make them feel icky in their tum tum.
except we’re constantly having to defend the results of science from people who think they are permitted to reject them if they make them feel icky in their tum tum
But enough about the IPCC . . . .
Which results. Be specific. Climate science for example has many different tuning parameters between models. None of them agree with the feedback effects from things like like cloud coverage or particulates in the air.
Do you really think climate change modelers wake up every day and forget clouds exist?
This information is incredibly accessible. But you need to go to like the first link on Google and not the 53rd.
Do you really think climate change modelers wake up every day and forget clouds exist?
No – cloud cover and evaporated water in the atmosphere are specifically excluded from the data. Because the other GHGs just start to look like noise if you don’t do that.
Sounds like clouds don’t matter as much as Jesse seems to think considering how accurate the modeling is.
Sounds like clouds don’t matter
Hard to say, since we don’t really study them.
Not exactly. We *do* study them, it’s just that so far we know so little about the climate impacts of clouds that we can’t really incorporate them into any climate modelling.
Clouds impact the planet’s albedo. What is very uncertain is the formation of clouds. Cosmic rays have an impact (as shown at CERN), among other factors, that are not well understood.
This is why the most accurate model of Earth’s temperature involves sunspots. But even that one breaks down when applied retroactively before 1840 for various reasons (lack of data). All the co2 focused models fail before about 1920, and of course have repeatedly been revised as their predictions are shown to be too warm.
Certainly, if one plots the greenhouse contributory effect of GHGs on the same chart as water vapor, they are all (including CO2) basically zero next to water vapor.
Other reasons water vapor gets excluded are raised by Forbes: “The fact that water vapor is the dominant absorber in the Earth’s greenhouse effect can lead to a flawed narrative that anthropogenic carbon dioxide (CO2) is not important nor a significant driver of climate warming.” Gotta control that narrative…
Knowing that a thing exists is completely different from understanding how it works, right?
Climatologists obviously know that clouds exist, but haven’t got a clue about:
1) The net effect of cloud cover on global temperature (some clouds make things locally warmer depending on time of day, some clouds make things locally cooler depending on time of day);
2) Whether cloud cover will increase or decrease in a warming world;
3) What *type* of cloud cover changes could be expected for the outcome of #2;
4) What causes clouds to form in the first place and what factors affect what type of clouds will appear and when.
All of those points are the subject of intense debate and study because the answers to those questions will change the predictions of climate models by orders of magnitude more than fiddling with CO2 concentrations.
Remember when the cyanobacteria first started polluting the atmosphere with their O2 emissions and causing a mass extinction event?
No, Tony, you are not “defending the results of science”, you are defending political beliefs and policies that have nothing to do with science. That is your problem. And that’s the problem of Democrats and progressives.
Well, there’s science and then there are ethical norms. I do have ethical beliefs grounded on more-or-less plausible philosophical premises, but obviously norms are not the domain of science.
However, you can and should apply scientific thinking when coming up with political beliefs. Reject stuff you believe that is contradicted by evidence, and so on.
The idea that policy, politics, and morality should be rooted in science is a delusion limited to progressives and socialists.
It’s like you’re illiterate.
No, the problem is that you are an ignorant, bigoted leftist, Tony. You have no concept of how societies can function other than the fascist/socialist/atheist world view you have been indoctrinated with.
I’m just a liberal. I think we should collect the evidence of what works best for human well-being and apply it.
You by contrast want to make us into Christian Saudi Arabia.
So, you are a progressive.
No, you just proved that you are not.
You have a pathological hatred of Christianity and complete ignorance of the history of Western civilization.
The terms liberal and progressive are largely meaningless to me except as descriptions of the broadest of categories: being for earthly human well-being instead of telling them they’re all going to be tortured for eternity if they say the wrong magic words.
You’ve turned my opposition to being a church-run civilization to hatred of Christianity. Isn’t that interesting? So you can’t oppose a return to a prima facie bad form of government without hating all Christians and probably puppies and throw in being a traitor too while we’re at it.
Hmm, theocracy, no thanks!
Of course they are: that’s because you are historically and politically illiterate.
Nowhere have I advocated a “church run civilization”. Western societies have been Christian, not “church run”.
So you don’t want a state church, you just want all non-Christians to be second-class citizens.
No, Tony, I want laws rooted in Christianity and I want Christianity taught in schools because it is a fundamental part of Western civilization; this is, in fact, the norm in Western societies. Neither of those makes non-Christians “second class citizens”.
I do have ethical beliefs
No, you don’t. You’re a lefturd.
-jcr
Ignorance of science, the history of science, and the scientific method is associated with the erroneous belief that something like a “consensus view” has any meaning or relevance to science.
To the degree that a “consensus view” exists, it is a reflection of political preferences of powerful institutions. For example, Keynesianism, eugenics, scientific racism, scientific socialism, and Lysenkoism were all “consensus views” among the scientific establishment (in the US or USSR, respectively) and were all fundamentally wrong.
If you think that something like a “consensus view” exists in science, you are an ignorant, gullible fool.
You’re just wrong. The only thing you listed that was ever a consensus view is *maybe* Keynesianism, and then not really, and then we’re talking about a relatively soft, complex, and immature science.
But if you have an objection to, say, the Standard Model of particle physics, you better have something good in your back pocket, and nobody is under any obligation to listen to you even if you do.
You’re trying to find an excuse for believing whatever you want to believe, but science obviously is not going to give that to you.
How about the geocentric model of the universe? Or the notion that a thrown object is impelled by the will of the thrower?
But if you have an objection to, say, the Standard Model of particle physics, you better have something good in your back pocket
How about the failed quest for any evidence of “dark matter?”
There’s lots of evidence for dark matter. Just no evidence of what it actually is.
There’s abstract evidence of the type that says “given x, y, and z, something must exist which can be described by a particular set of properties and we shall call it ‘dark matter.'”
Like the ‘gravitron,’ however, empirical evidence of its actual existence, AFAIK, continues to elude researchers.
Dark matter is like “the ether”. Scientists made it up to make their theories work. Instead of wondering if maybe their theories are incorrect or incomplete.
Before humans existed, there wasn’t even a bad scientific consensus about the universe. There wasn’t any.
That doesn’t give you permission to believe in leprechauns or whatever either. The consensus is the consensus. Most scientists are looking not to confirm it but to find holes in it so they can win a Nobel prize.
All religious apologists, for example, are doing exactly the opposite.
That doesn’t give you permission to believe in leprechauns or whatever either.
Who said they did?
All religious apologists, for example, are doing exactly the opposite.
Many people are trying to explain to you that all you are doing here is loudly declaring your ignorance re: the history of science and religion.
Did you know that the concept of “Ockham’s Razor” was formulated by a biblical literalist who was excommunicated for asserting that the bible is not metaphorical?
One of the first things I said was that lots of good science was done by monks or whatever.
I appreciate very well that religion was so culturally oppressive that science had to be done in its shadow, leading to all sorts of funny historical ironies.
So then what? What’s your point? Isn’t science better off free of all that crap?
I appreciate very well that religion was so culturally oppressive that science had to be done in its shadow, leading to all sorts of funny historical ironies.
No. Again, you’re an ignoramus. It wasn’t “rebellious monks and stuff” against “culturally oppressive” church.
The foremost physicist and mathematician of Ockham’s time was a bishop, and one who in the early 1300s declared that mathematically predictive physics, while possible in theory, would be impossible in practice due to the relativity inherent in the relationship between time and space.
It’s also worth noting that no small part of why the Church didn’t like Galileo circulating his works is that he was wrong and they could prove it.
In other words, they were doing to him the exact same thing you’re advocating for disagreeing with the things that you’ve decided are “Science!”
They weren’t saying “evil man is contradicting our metaphors!” They were saying “his math is wrong, and he’s spreading unscientific and therefore unapproved ideas about the world.”
I believe the crime Galileo was imprisoned for was heresy. Are you suggesting it matters whether the heresy was metaphorical or mathematical in nature? You’re just saying what I’ve been saying. The Church has been at times hostile to science, which you can’t deny, but also at times considered itself the arbiter of science. It all sounds rather oppressive to me.
So do you want to start imprisoning scientists for heresy? Or are you claiming that’s what I want to do? I just want to let science be science and for religious people to stop making laws concerning it (or anything else).
So do you want to start imprisoning scientists for heresy?
No. I don’t even think people should get in trouble for being skeptical of the Climate Consensus.
Yes let’s start down whiny bitch road. Poor white heterosexual Christian me, the world thinks we’re morons, and I’ve never felt this way before and it’s not fair!
Maybe burning a book will make you feel better?
Who’s gotten in trouble for being a climate change denier? They’ve been lavished with tens of millions of dollars from oil companies. You’re not in trouble, you’re just being rejected by your society. Hey man, I know the feeling. Try a parade.
Who’s gotten in trouble for being a climate change denier? They’ve been lavished with tens of millions of dollars from oil companies.
Complete fabrication. Oil companies are demonized in the press because they occupy a very lucrative and essential niche in the world, and others are envious. They do almost nothing on climate change except to put out PR messages to satisfy sops like you.
So Tony’s assertion is you either agree with the leftist interpretation of the consensus (there is much disagreement in climate science) or you believe leprechauns change climate.
Interesting.
There isn’t as much disagreement as you think, but as I’ve repeatedly explained, you have to read serious sources on the subject and not crackpot blogs you reached because of confirmation bias.
There isn’t as much disagreement as you think
How sure are you about that?
I’ve been trying for years and years now to get you be specific about what the “Scientific Consensus” actually is, and what you’re source for it is, but without fail you disappear every time.
Try wikipedia. Type in “climate change.”
I should have added, like I have so many times, “actual science – not wikipedia.”
No but it’s pretty good.
“Who’s gotten in trouble for being a climate change denier?”
Who’s been “told that they’ll be tortured for saying the wrong magic words”?
You follow that ^ up with calling someone else a “whiny bitch victim”? Too funny.
You’re hopeless.
Why do I need anybody’s permission to believe anything?
A “consensus” is a formal, verifiable agreement among all participants on some subject. There is no “consensus” in science on anything.
You don’t need permission, but if you want other people to agree with you, traditionally you need justification.
A consensus is now defined as a formal unanimous vote? Sorry for the confusion: that’s not how I was using it.
It is a unanimous decision reached by a group, and if you claim that a consensus exists, you have to be able to prove it. If you claim that there is a consensus among scientists on X, you have to show that no scientist disagrees with X.
Of course not: leftists like you always try to win arguments by changing the meaning of words.
I couldn’t care less whether you agree with me; I just don’t want to be forced by you to do something against my will.
Is this one of those fun games where you say that words only have one immutable definition, and I explain that words mean whatever the crap we want them to mean, subject only to the constraints of other people’s understanding, a consensus, if you will?
And then you think you have some kind of gotcha because I said one thing that any imbecile could understand, but you grabbed a dictionary and Roberts Rules of Order to prove how I really meant something I didn’t say?
And then I wonder, why do we need to say “unanimous consent” if “consent” means literally “unanimous consent”? Hey you’re right, this is fun.
The common meaning of the word “consensus” is “general agreement”, meaning either unanimity or at least agreement by most of the people in a group.
The problem with the phrase “scientific consensus” is that it doesn’t mean anything: it doesn’t specify which group has achieved consensus, nor do you show that there is general agreement within any group.
So, if you want to talk about “scientific consensus”, please start by defining what that phrase actually is supposed to mean and how I and other people can determine whether “scientific consensus” exists.
Until you do that, you are just equivocating.
What’s worse is when someone proclaims there to be a consensus when there is in fact, much open debate still going on.
Obama attempted to shut down the controversy surrounding his so-called “stimulus” package by saying “there is no disagreement that we need action by our government, a recovery plan that will help to jumpstart the economy.”
Which is why many economists pointed out that, there was, in fact, a lot of disagreement by signing an open letter to the President:
With all due respect Mr. President, that is not true.
Notwithstanding reports that all economists are now Keynesians and that we all support a big increase in the burden of government, we do not believe that more government spending is a way to improve economic performance. More government spending by Hoover and Roosevelt did not pull the United States economy out of the Great Depression in the 1930s. More government spending did not solve Japan’s “lost decade” in the 1990s. As such, it is a triumph of hope over experience to believe that more government spending will help the U.S. today. To improve the economy, policy makers should focus on reforms that remove impediments to work, saving, investment and production. Lower tax rates and a reduction in the burden of government are the best ways of using fiscal policy to boost growth.”
But you think lower tax rates and less government is the solution to every problem. It’s literally an article of faith. There is no circumstance in heaven or earth that you would say requires more taxes and more government. You even have to make up counterfactual bullshit about history to maintain this faith.
So you’ll forgive people if they stick with the proven track record of the Keynesian approach.
Not at all. Lowering tax rates and less government isn’t intended to “solve problems”, it is based in justice and liberty.
Not at all, it is a question of justice and liberty.
Leave it to Tony to promote the failed, corrupt ideas of a eugenicist.
Tony, why don’t you answer the f*cking question instead of raising red herrings: define what you actually mean by “the scientific consensus” on something.
And so what? Egyptian civilization persisted for 3000 years based on irrational, religious beliefs. Roman civilization existed for a thousand years, again, based on irrational, religious beliefs.
The only civilizations based on scientific, rational beliefs have consistently failed within a few decades.
This is a great point actually.
So which religion do we choose, and how do we enforce adherence to it?
Moderate Christianity has served the West pretty well in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Atheist ideologies (socialism, fascism, communism) then proceeded to destroy much of the West in the 20th century.
And the enforcement bit?
You mean how do societies enforce conformance to moderate Christianity? Primarily through encoding the guiding principles of Christianity within law, and through educating children in it, the way both Europe and the US have done throughout most of their existence.
So you presumably think the US constitution is flawed. Not only shouldn’t it have a first amendment, but it should declare that Jesus is lord.
Do you look around the world and think the best societies are the ones run by religions?
Not at all. Throughout its history, the US “encoded the guiding principles of Christianity within law, and educated children in Christianity”, just like all other Western nations.
The problem here is that you don’t understand the First Amendment.
Nowhere did I advocate “running” a society “by religion”. In fact, I didn’t advocate anything at all; I observed that Western societies have been successful because they actually did “encode the guiding principles of Christianity within law” and did “educate children in Christianity”.
I also observed that each and every society based on science and reason alone has failed dramatically.
There has never been a society run on science and reason alone. Do you think such a thing is possible? I guess I can dream.
Yeah, Western Christian societies have done some good things and some bad things. Buddhist cultures have done some good things and some bad things. You want to make it a pissing match now comparing the horrors perpetrated by each? Or their technological contributions? Or do you want to acknowledge that you’re kind of ignoring all the bad things to support your thesis?
It’s all very well to say Christians spent lavish amounts of money to build the imperial age, but I think it’s only fair to acknowledge that pretty much all of that money was stolen from people they slaughtered to extinction or enslaved.
Sure: communist and fascist Europe were run on science and reason alone. Their science was erroneous, and so was their reasoning, but that’s a different matter.
Western, Christian societies are uniquely responsible for the enormous progress and increase in well being across the globe. No other society or culture even comes close.
That is the kind of economic nonsense people like you actually believe.
And the climate and vaccine believers are more like the religious apologists than they are scientists. Any contrary evidence is shunned. Any apostate is cast out.
permission to believe
Scratch a liberal, find an autocrat.
Who the fuck needs PERMISSION to believe anything?
-jcr
No, Tony, you are wrong.
Tony, do you seriously believe that there are any physicists that believe the standard model of particle physics to be true and proven? Good god, you are an ignorant fool.
I think all of them realize it’s incomplete, what with it not covering the large majority of the constituency of the universe. But try to do an experiment that contradicts it.
Almost every experiment in particle physics these days is done in an attempt to contradict the standard model.
In fact, when it comes to particle physics, the conservative/progressive split is that conservatives tend to view the standard model as “good enough” and view further funding for bigger particle accelerators as a waste of money. Progressives come up with ever more hare-brained ideas of extending the standard model and want to build massive new particle accelerators based on just hunches and no theory or evidence.
So, you picked a really lousy example, Tony.
I barely even know what we’re talking about anymore, but I think we’re agreeing?
Yes, you might have to build a particle collider the size of the moon to contradict the SM. So that’s what you need to show up with for any adult person to entertain your interesting new theory about how the consensus is wrong.
I think the point I was making is that you’re wrong to claim that the notion of a consensus is irrelevant to science. Of course the existence of a consensus doesn’t prove anything necessarily, least of all your crackpot theory.
You implied that the standard model of particle physics represented a scientific consensus. In fact, it does no such thing. The vast majority of particle physicists believe that the standard model is fundamentally wrong, and merely represents a useful approximation.
No, you are wrong in claiming that the notion of a “scientific consensus” is relevant to science; the only thing a “scientific consensus” ever does in the sciences is to slow progress.
The notion of “scientific consensus” only ever matters to progressive/socialist politicians when they are erroneously trying to derive policy from scientific results.
The notion of “scientific consensus” only ever matters to progressive/socialist politicians when they are erroneously trying to derive policy from scientific results.
*applause*
Don’t applaud that. What the fuck?
So are we endorsing making policy according to whatever some reality TV figure pulls out of his asshole during any given mental breakdown?
Or is it just the way we did it in that paradise on earth known as the Middle Ages, with religion?
You don’t want science informing public policy? I’m going to need this explained to me before I vote for your preferred politicians.
Do you actually think that science is nothing but a bong session? A hodgepodge of ideas forever orbiting each other, no consensus possible? You’re just trying to rationalize beliefs that science doesn’t justify. And if science doesn’t justify them, you need to explain what you think does.
No, we are rejecting the idea that “policy” should be made at the national level in areas that are related to science in the first place.
The federal government in the US is responsible for national defense, trade, and ensuring a republican form of government in the states. None of that requires science.
It is progressives and socialists who suffer from the delusion that it is the function of the federal government to make policy in other areas.
“The federal government in the US is responsible for national defense, trade, and ensuring a republican form of government in the states. None of that requires science.”
This worldview gets weirder and weirder.
I disagree that the US federal government should only do those things, because I don’t have the same values you do. And I think scientific thinking should inform all good decision making. Evidence isn’t optional. People who make evidence optional do terrible or stupid things most of the time.
Well, you can “disagree” all you want, that’s what the Constitution says.
I agree. But that is impossible when the decisions being made are political. That’s why progressives have pushed everything from eugenics to climate change policies.
Scientific thinking should enter all decision making through private, individual deliberations. That is how liberal societies work.
Correct. And in order for me to be able to use evidence and scientific thinking in my decision making, we need to stop authoritarian government from imposing its erroneous scientific views on me.
Tony’s problem here is, as with all progressives, that he believes there are solutions to problems, and that science can provide the solution that can then be applied by the government.
Science has no place in policy-making because there are no solutions. There are only trade-offs, and which trade-off is “best” is largely going to depend on who’s holding the reins of power.
It’s politics, Tony, not science.
So you’re adding history to the list of things you’re ignorant of. I guess if you’re going to go for willful ignorance, you may as well make it a clean sweep.
Exactly correct. Science is not determined by a committee. That’s politics. And science is never settled. It takes just one experiment to prove wrong what was considered to be fact.
So settled science arrived at by consensus is politics, not science.
They could have just gotten on the internet or walked down the street and had a conversation with any random humans.
Maybe it’s not a mystery, but it’s certainly a shame, that people require certainty so much that they will hold fast to a position probably to the end of the earth.
But here’s the thing. If you’re totally ignorant of, say, cosmology, then almost literally the entire universe fits inside a very simple little box. The entirety of existence is simply glossed over in favor of a bedtime story or whatever.
Once you start learning a bit, you realize that existence is far more interesting than you could have imagined. And I think a more accurate conception of your place in the universe necessarily leads to a bit of humility. Contemplate the vastness of the cosmos then tell me that your fucking parochial culture war shit is that important.
In the year 2022, with photographs being taken of the early universe… any time after Darwin, I would say, I don’t give you a pass on your unwillingness to let go of your childhood bedtime fables about how the world is. You are not a good citizen if you live your life that way. You don’t have an excuse, even if you do burn all the books.
And I think a more accurate conception of your place in the universe necessarily leads to a bit of humility.
You should maybe show some, then.
This is neither the time nor place.
No time or place ever is, seemingly. But at least it’s there in your intentions, amirite?
It’s all relative. Stupid people think I’m smug, smart people think I’m incredibly engaging.
Stupid people think I’m smug, smart people think I’m incredibly engaging.
I think you may have this backward.
The only smart person he knows is his mirror.
Yea, idiots like you certainly do that.
You don’t have any children, nor do you have any idea of “how the world is”, Tony, so you fail on both accounts.
But you fail even more because when it comes to the future of humanity, it doesn’t matter “how the world is”, it matters whether their beliefs are adaptive. Adaptive beliefs are almost certainly scientifically wrong and economically irrational. That is, believing in an all powerful, all seeing God is likely to be more adaptive than believing in an empty, materialistic universe.
That’s certainly one perspective. I really do enjoy the irony of using irrational beliefs as a tool in a moral worldview based on such a cold, meaningless teleology as “only care about the survival of the species.”
And I’ll go one further: I think it’s highly possible that the invention of modern science might have been a big mistake. We would be much less able to destroy the world without the technology it facilitated, after all.
But I do think you need to add something: Without religious or religious-like thinking, we’d never invent reasons to kill each other in large numbers deliberately.
So since I want the species to survive but think the combination of modern technology and religion is highly volatile, one of them has to go, and personally I enjoy my air conditioner more than I enjoy being burned for witchcraft.
Without religious or religious-like thinking, we’d never invent reasons to kill each other in large numbers deliberately.
Are you really asserting that there has never been a violent conflict that wasn’t religiously motivated?
Seriously?
Some wars you can attribute to resource scarcity, I suppose, but try motivating a soldier to fight for that reason alone.
Name a war that wasn’t started for idiotic reasons.
Name a war that wasn’t started for idiotic reasons.
“Idiotic reasons” =/= “Religious reasons”
Name a war that was started for religious reasons. And be forewarned that I’m quite prepared to argue that neither the Jihad nor the Crusades were actually started for religious reasons, so be creative.
Of course you are.
Some say wars start for many reasons. I say they all start for stupid reasons. I say we do war because our brains still think we exist in small tribes living near other small tribes that want our food and women. This is why we needed one or two really good tries at warfare with modern technology before we realized we couldn’t keep it up or else we’d simply kill everyone on earth.
Those wars didn’t start for rational reasons, did they? What about any of the skirmishes that followed them? “We want to steal your oil” is about the most ethically sound justification for starting a war I can think of.
But none of these implicated religion directly, even if we could quibble about the wars of Europe that were so ubiquitous they started getting named by the number of decades they lasted. You have to admit, some of those were about whether God was three guys or one guy.
But “we were wronged and we want to get even with these people who are related to some other people we blame for our problems” is hardly more rational, not to mention “we need to kill all the Jews of Europe for reasons.”
These tribal rules just don’t work on the scale of the nation-state. It’s always a big damn mess. But I would pretty nearly equate patriotism with religion. Fascism is essentially a religion of the state. If you want to bicker over how narrowly to define things, fine, it’s not all religion, but it is all equally the same old stupid fucking nothing.
Where did I say that I “only care about the survival of the species”? Irrational religious beliefs have not just formed the basis for the survival of humanity, they have formed the basis of stable, prosperous, innovative, civilized societies.
Throughout the scientific revolution, Christianity and science were perfectly compatible.
It is socialists and fascists who see a conflict between Christianity and “science”, but we aren’t even talking actual science, we are talking about their own pseudo-science.
I don’t think you can say “moderate Christianity” formed the basis for modern technological civilization. It just happened to be around. Because everyone had to be it because religion is oppressive. Stop taking credit for things you didn’t do.
Yes, that’s because you don’t think and because you don’t know anything.
I’m an atheist so I’m not taking credit for anything.
So just talk me through it. How did Christianity inspire Einstein, Durac, and Oppenheimer. Were Franklin and Jefferson big Jesus freaks? What is the connection here? Because I see the seeds of secularism hand in hand with the birth of modern science, with religion playing a diminishing role almost by definition.
Like all educated men of their times, Franklin, Jefferson, Einstein, Dirac, and Oppenheimer were all deeply educated in Christian thought, morality, and beliefs. Oppenheimer took a deep interest in religion in general and took an almost mystical view of physics.
Well, obviously, since modern science is the basis of progressivism and secularism (i.e., the strict separation of church and state) is a core element of progressivism, that is trivially true. But that doesn’t mean that science somehow obsoleted religion, what it means is that science gave rise to ideologies that were hostile to religion, ideologies that have given rise to some of the worst atrocities in human history.
Science gave rise to no ideology. It is the opposite of ideology.
People, with their same old stupid religions, took technology and did awful things, yes. The moral trajectory you see in history curves to every place that’s convenient for you. Christianity is responsible for all the good stuff but none of the bad. You’re just speaking a tautology in the end.
I know plenty about Christian moral philosophy, and if we have to all live under a single moral philosophy, I very very wisely would choose Buddhism instead.
But the idea that we all have to live under a single moral philosophy is one of the most obviously monstrous things I can imagine. I know more about moral philosophy than most, and I will let YOU know when we’ve arrived at the correct one.
Science is indeed the opposite of ideology. But ideologues have abused science and turned it into an instrument of ideology. That is how we got eugenics, racism, fascism, and socialism.
Yes, you share that belief with every socialist, communist, and fascist from Marx to Hitler.
Is it science’s fault that its fruits have been used for evil? I mean, that’s an interesting conundrum, but since I don’t know what we’re going to do about the human thirst for knowledge, why don’t we eradicate the actual causes of humans doing terrible things? Poverty and religion.
I said I don’t want to have a unified dogmatic system controlling everyone with no escape. That’s what you want. So you’re the Mao, not me. You just think you have the *correct* all-encompassing worldview. And I’m here as an expert to say not only do you not have the correct one, you have one of the worst ones.
The correct one hasn’t been discovered yet, which is part of the reason freedom of thought is so valuable.
No, it isn’t science’s fault that its fruits have been used for evil.
It is, in fact, the fault of ideologies that claim to be based on science that the fruits of science have been used for evil, ideologies like socialism, fascism, and progressivism. It is the fault of the ideologies you embrace.
No, there is no conundrum. There is nothing wrong with science or the scientific process. The problem is when people like you want to start using science as the basis of government and policy.
Really? Because I want Christian values to continue to be the basis of Western law, and because I want Christianity to be taught in school, along with Shakespeare and history? How is that “controlling” anyone’s behavior?
Yup, you really think like a mini-Hitler.
The researchers don’t understand the issues to begin with.
The narrow belief that all genetically modified foods are intrinsically harmful to humans because of their gene sequences is obviously false. On the other hand, there are many ways in which many GM foods can be “harmful”.
What does that even mean? That’s like arguing “the validity of the taste of chocolate”. In reality, the only question that really matters is whether there ought to be government action on climate change, and there science and economics are quite clear: government action on climate change is completely irrational.
Again, a completely nonsensical question, since the answer depends on the vaccine, the disease, and the person involved. That’s true for COVID-19, smallpox, tetanus, anthrax, etc.
Such ill-defined questions have no scientific answers at all, let alone a “scientific consensus”. The only thing the paper shows is that its authors of the paper are nincompoops.
“the science and economics are quite clear: government action on climate change is completely irrational.”
Is that the consensus view? Citation?
No, the political “consensus view” is that government should intervene in the economy using the excuse of “climate change”.
Any official analysis of US legislation on climate change has shown a negligible effect on future climate and that the discounted future benefits are not worth the current cost.
I asked for a citation, nut a summary.
I told you: look at the projections for the impact of any US climate legislation/policy on global climate change. The effect is necessarily a small fraction of a degree.
I also told you: look at the economic analysis of the impact of climate change and the cost of preventing climate change by the Obama administration; the Obama administration could only justify action on climate change by changing the discount rate of future benefits to an economically absurd number.
You’ll have to dig up the references yourself, Tony.
I think you’re talking about the so-called social cost of carbon. And I gather you’re favoring the Trump administration’s calculation over the Obama and Biden administrations’. That seems dumb, but whatever. Of course any such calculation comes with large uncertainties.
My understanding is that climate change mitigation policy may slow economic growth, but that’s hardly the end of the world. As far as the benefit of such policy is not necessarily calculable. What’s the value of a species that doesn’t go extinct?
There are plenty of things wrong with Obama’s economic predictions, but even taken at face value, they are discounted incorrectly; that is, they overestimate the value of a dollar lost a century from now by a large factor, according to all standard government measures. So, Obama had to break with accepted economic models to justify his climate policies.
And just to be clear, by “accepted economic models”, I don’t mean any kind of “consensus”. What I mean is that the US government has used economic models for decades that assign value to future dollars, and Obama changed those models arbitrarily and without justification, simply in order to achieve his desired political objectives.
If Democrats could wish climate change away (as Republicans did for decades), they would. It’s not a fun problem, and solving it doesn’t win you many political points or donor dollars.
Your solution seems to be doing nothing about the problem. In a world run by nefarious people engaging in massive conspiracies, doesn’t that make you an oil lobby shill?
Democrats have done NOTHING to “solve climate change”. Zero. Zip. All they have done is use “climate change” as an excuse to hand out trillions to special interest groups.
That is incorrect. I think the US government should massively simplify permitting for nuclear power plants, it should greatly expand and encourage shale gas extraction, and it should lower trade barriers for agricultural goods to help the poorest nations develop economically so that they can deal with climate change. Those are effective policies the US government can adopt, none of which Democrats have adopted.
Since you obviously know nothing about climate change or climate change policies, that’s the only conclusion someone as ill informed as you can reach.
They just passed history’s largest piece of legislation to deal with it.
They could do much more if Republicans weren’t all nihilistic fascists.
Blah blah blah now you’re shilling for specific industries. Just not solar and wind, because those are gay and they don’t give money to Republicans.
Yes, they did. And the effect of that legislation on global temperatures is negligible.
Republicans had no control over, no veto power over, what is in the IRA, since it was passed without any Republican votes. If Democrats had wanted to pass a mandate that we heat our homes with cow dung, they could have done so.
What the Democrats chose to put/not put into the IRA is solely the responsibility of the nihilistic fascists making up the Democratic party.
In other words, you understand that solar and wind have bought the Democratic party and that Democrats are subsidizing those industries because of lobbying and contributions.
And the reason I oppose them is simple: solar and wind cannot meaningfully address climate change, while at the same time making the US dependent on Russia and China for raw materials.
There are also claims that this effect is nonsense: https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2022/04/08/the-dunning-kruger-effect-is-autocorrelation/#:~:text=Have%20you%20heard%20of%20the,effect%20has%20since%20become%20famous.
Unbelievably, the article already links to another article with that same debunking of Dunning-Kruger. Yet the author praises this study which makes exactly the same statistical mistakes.
Reason: “Study says incompetent people are too incompetent to realise it”
Poster: “No I’m not!”
Ironically nobody here has responded that way. But you seem to embody the response.
Ironically nobody here has responded that way.
Not directly, I agree. And you miss 100% of the cheap shots you don’t take.
Tony has.
Tony: Stupid people think I’m smug, smart people think I’m incredibly engaging.
Silence thyself, peasant.
Question: How, exactly, does one have objective knowledge about homeopathy?
It helps if you read about it at a rate of one letter a year.
Ironically, that makes you an expert.
The inclusion of it in this study is really kinda mind-blowing. Or mind-numbing.
Actually, the inclusion of homeopathy in this list as a sort of placebo is really interesting. It really kinda indicates that the researchers were able to find a bunch of morons and, to those morons, climate change was the ‘science’ they had the most objective and subjective expertise in and agreed with the most. It would be interesting if they had included more utter hokum along the lines of homeopathy like UFOs, auras, astral projection, karmic balance, and/or unicorn farts. As it stands now, all the others (besides homeopathy) have, regardless of the science, some real-world artifact that requires *some* explanation, whether it’s the scientifically correct explanation or not.
Just so long as you don’t lump Bigfoot in there with those other things that are obviously shams!
Are you calling Nessie a sham!?
Bullshit on its face, and thoroughly debunked by James Randi at least thirty years ago.
-jcr
The COVID questions are clearly biased.
https://osf.io/9xeqg?view_only=29a92a9a707547149f210e5bf76a6b54
Just as an example, one of the knowledge questions is whether or not COVID came from a lab leak. How is that possible?
Another question says “99% of people who catch COVID will not show symptoms”. This is false, but the wording specifically guarantees that people who are afraid of COVID will not answer it incorrectly. A person who thinks 100% of COVID is a lethal hospital trip will get that question correct.
Meanwhile another question is “Young people with no preexisting conditions can die from COVID”. This is true, because out of millions of deaths, obviously a small percentage were healthy young people. But again, a person who vastly overestimates the risk of COVID will get this question correct.
This is designed to catch people who are obviously under-estimating the danger of COVID, while pass people who over-estimate it.
Hmmm, I also went through some of the data sets and the questions just don’t seem right. Let’s say I have researched climate change thoroughly and have gone through the models and identified multiple statistical flaws. How will the questions in this file actually answer my competency?
https://osf.io/dmv3y?view_only=29a92a9a707547149f210e5bf76a6b54
True or False? The universe is expanding.
True or False? A “Red Dwarf” is a kind of planet.
True or False? It takes 24 hours for the earth to orbit the sun.
These questions generally will tell you what level of school a person went to, as a person who has a bachelors degree in statistics probably will get some of the scientific questions wrong.
The last question is more like the “riddle” about four ways to spell four.
Four
For
Fore
What do you eat cereal with?
Fork?
Hahaha moron!!!
“An infection with COVID-19 is only possible once, then the body is immune.”
I mean, you develop some natural immunity after catching it. But you can obviously catch it more than once because many people have had it multiple times. The framing of it doesn’t make it a strict true/false claim.
“With the proper diet, I can protect myself from being infected with COVID-19.”
A true/false claim when again the truth is nuanced. Since COVID-19 has much more severe effects on obese people, a good diet and a healthy body are protections against COVID-19, though they obviously don’t prevent infection.
“If a person has no sign of infection, they are not contagious.”
To my knowledge, asymptomic spread hasn’t quite been proven. Though I do think it’s probable since it spreads through aerosols.
I wonder if the climate questions are as troublesome. The idea here makes me wonder if the ideological orthodoxy of scientists was controlled for. Because yes, scientists are capable of letting political biases color their expert opinions.
So I’ve dug through and am unable to find what kinds of questions they were asking for anything except COVID. I’m not really convinced the study was well conducted based on the COVID questions I’m seeing.
There are other documents- you can go to the study linked in the article, and then go to their data. As I note below they aren’t necessarily questions that say whether you are an expert in the field or not. They test general science but not a single test question about, say, Statistics. Or proper coding skills. Even though (for example) many of the COVID and Climate policies aren’t based on scientific facts, but on the results of statistical computer models.
Again, as I said above. It looks like conclusion is that the messaging about climate has elevated it to par with cosmology on among people who mistakenly think they’re expert homeopaths and nuclear engineers.
3 yrs., 6 multi-hour, enclosed space, no mask, no vax exposures and running… no COVID. Far from convinced that the majority of bodies 40 and under aren’t immune prior to exposure.
If I get the vaccine, I cannot catch COVID.
If I get the vaccine, I am protected from COVID.
If I get the vaccine, I cannot spread COVID
If I get the vaccine, it is 100% safe.
I did an article about 2021’s ‘covid misinformation’ – spoiler alert, the ‘experts’ went 1 for 8.
https://simulationcommander.substack.com/p/government-is-a-relentless-freedom
A new poll has found that Americans who consume more right-wing media are far more likely to believe misinformation about COVID-19 and the vaccine against it.
In a survey released Monday by the Kaiser Family Foundation, respondents were asked about eight different misconceptions about the pandemic, ranging from “The government is exaggerating the number of COVID-19 deaths” to “The COVID-19 vaccines can change your DNA.” The survey found that 78 percent of Americans either believe or aren’t sure about at least one of the statements. However, the numbers varied greatly depending on party affiliation, vaccination status and source of news.
The other COVID-19 statements presented by Kaiser — in the order of whether people believed or were unsure about them — were “Pregnant women should not get the COVID-19 vaccine,” “Deaths due to the COVID-19 vaccine are being intentionally hidden by the government,” “The COVID-19 vaccines have been shown to cause infertility,” “Ivermectin is a safe and effective treatment for COVID-19,” “You can get COVID-19 from the vaccine” and “The COVID-19 vaccines contain a microchip.”
I love how they lump not sure in there when almost no COVID info is stone cold fact. There is little that is absolutely known, but an unsure answer means you are a NewsMax loving leming.
“Young people with no preexisting conditions can die from COVID”
For the same reasons that “Young people with no preexisting conditions can die from influenza” is true.
“Perfectly competent scientists publish a paper proving incompetent people are too incompetent to realize their incompetence.” – Reason Magazine
*facepalm*
It would be interesting to see these scientist’s objective and subjective knowledge of re-education progroms.
It would also be interesting to note how wrong the “experts” and “consensus” has been on the exact topics highlighted in the study. When those presented as being competent have been shown to be incompetent then shouldn’t we have major questions about the conclusions of these experts?
Skeptic communities have shown a high level of understanding of their specific subjects and solid reasoning behind their conclusions. It seems clear that the media and scientific institutions do their best to blackout any information that contradicts their popular conclusions. I’ll even give anti-vaxxers (actual ones, not just people who don’t want the covid jab) credit for some legitimate concerns they bring up. Their concerns do highlight information that isn’t common knowledge and could use some more study.
Not all tautologies are not even wrong.
I was interested to read about this from the headline. But then the article delved into “Experts conducted a study to prove why you should trust the experts.”
Many of the questions and topics are extremely flawed. This is a bad study, and Bailey is doing a terrible job of reporting on it.
Par for the course for Bailey and the experts. If you expect anything more at this point, it’s your fault.
“Incompetent People Are Often Too Incompetent To Realize Just How Incompetent They Are, Says New Study”
Reason Editors hardest hit!
Man, Tony really shit up this thread. What a loser.
Tony epitomizes the article title to a T.
Didn’t bother to read the article; just assumed it was about the CDC, Fauci and all the people who claimed to “follow the science.”
That pretty much explains the Biden Administration. the largest group of incompetent people ever assembled.
What a dumb article. Knowledge of science is determined by politics, not by education or training or anything stupid like that.
Galileo was rightly put to death for contradicting the Church, and todays science deniers should suffer the same fate.
Right Tony?
Lemme get this straight. You think the big problem with the world is not climate change, but the imagined victimization of climate change deniers.
We both understand that nobody is talking about executing anyone, or even arresting them. Just them being criticized for their ridiculous and harmful ideas.
The problem with your media is that it tells you only what you want to hear. It has made you entitled and whiny.
No, the big problem is that we have scientism masquerading as science.
Truth.
No, the big problem with the world is that people are misusing the issue of climate change to pass laws that hand trillions to lobbyists and billionaires while doing nothing for the climate.
The problem with you, Tony, is that you are scientifically, politically, and economically illiterate, and that you therefore believe all the crap that progressive propagandists and lobbyists feed you.
The problem with you, Tony, is that you are scientifically, politically, and economically illiterate, and that you therefore believe all the crap that progressive propagandists and lobbyists feed you.
I’ve said similar to him and his response is that he trusts experts, and has no use for people who question the experts. And there’s nothing wrong with that. We all do that to an extent.
The problem is that what he calls “science” is not science. It’s politics.
Here are a few sentences that don’t happen in science:
“It’s settled. The committee made a decision. Shut up and accept what we say.”
Yet that is the mantra of what is called climate science. It’s not science though. It’s scientism. It’s a belief system that has nothing to do with science.
If you deny the common scientific understanding of climate change you are fucking retarded. You are not smarter than the practical unanimity of scientists on this earth. You haven’t figured out something they forgot to notice. I wish that you were right. Everyone wishes you were right. But climate change isn’t a mistake or a conspiracy I’m sorry to say.
And all you have to do to know that is read the fucking Wikipedia page on the subject like you do anything else. Your willful, constant confirmation bias on this subject genuinely annoys the fuck out of me.
Oh fuck off, Tony. Scientists believe in “climate change” (formerly “global warming”, formerly “global cooling”) because that’s where the government money goes. Period.
The fact that you cite Wikipedia proves your home is Clown World.
Exactly. If you propose a project that doesn’t investigate the ‘impacts of climate change’ you don’t get funded. This is criminal.
The “common scientific understanding of climate change” is not the issue; the issue is that it is irrelevant to politics.
So let’s look at actual data. Here is National Weather Service warm temperature data from where I live. Go ahead look at some of the records. Notice anything? That almost NONE of the records are recent. You would expect it to be dominated by the recent.
One thing that propagandists/political scientists tend to ignore is real life data. They did it in regards to Covid restrictions and mandates and they also do it on the weather.
https://www.weather.gov/pbz/twarm
Tony, I didn’t say anything about climate change. I’m talking about the political belief system called “climate science” that has very little to do with actual science.
“The problem is that what he calls “science” is not science. It’s politics.”
Bingo. Try arguing with a Big Green activist even ones who claim they are scientists/engineers.
They can’t get one inch below the surface to explain themselves before they start calling you a “denier” or something.
Climate change is yes of course. So what are you going to do about it?
Oh you’re going to power everything with wind/solar (weather driven not demand driven) and then make everyone drive an EV on top of that. How’s it going to work?
They don’t know. Literally just ask a few prying questions and they’re done and into name calling mode. See Tony
You mean exactly like how you far-Right Cons still embrace the now irrefutably proven to be a total failure trickle-down/supply-side Satanomics, aka Conmanitalism.
Like a wise man once said: “Getting economic advice from Conservatives is like getting babysitting advice from pedos or getting dating advice from serial rapists.”
• Study of 50 years of tax cuts for rich confirms ‘trickle down’ theory is an absolute sham
“. . . the vast majority of the populations in those countries have little to show for it, as the benefits of slashing taxes on the wealthy are concentrated among a handful of super-rich individuals—not widely shared across society in the form of improved job creation or prosperity, as “trickle down” theorists alleged would happen. . . .
. . . “Major tax cuts for the rich since the 1980s have increased income inequality, with all the problems that brings, without any offsetting gains in economic performance.” . . .”
“income inequality, with all the problems that brings”
Begging the question.
Idiots like him would rather have everyone poor than some people rich.
Your choices are equally poor or unequally rich. I’m not prone to envy so unequally rich is fine by me.
The average person living in a capitalistic economy has a much greater standard of living than someone under a socialist/communist/collectivist system.
Under the former there is great inequality because there is great wealth.
Under the latter there is much less inequality, but that’s because there’s a lot less wealth to go around.
I’d rather be unequally rich than equally poor.
Those aren’t the only two options. The distribution of wealth is a spectrum.
You’re telling people to be satisfied with whatever crumbs they’re given, as if it’s not our absolute right as citizens to change things we don’t like about economic policy.
Government is not just for punishing schoolchildren for wrongthink.
These “crumbs” as you put it still enable the average American to have a much higher standard of living than anywhere that punishes inequality.
Wealth distribution is nothing more than institutionalized envy.
How the fuck does wealth not have a distribution?
You’re still apologizing for the status quo with “let them eat cake.” This argument is bordering on parody.
You are making the typical, fundamental errors of leftists: you view wealth as a zero sum game.
I immigrated from a shithole country with low inequality… where people were much poorer than in the US. Coming to the US, I ended up being a lot better off financially, even though I’m in a much lower income percentile.
You have doctors, engineers, and scientists from poor countries coming to the US to work as cab drivers because it’s still a better life than they had.
And my anecdote is that wealth inequality is greater than maybe ever. I don’t care how hard someone worked, they shouldn’t be able to amass the power that comes with many billions of dollars. It’s too dangerous. That’s just a practical concern.
If you want to argue that today’s economic policy is the best possible economic policy, then what are you complaining about in other posts? We’ve achieved economic utopia and there’s something to complain about?
The problem isn’t with the billions of dollars, the problem is that people like you push authoritarian forms of government that result in billions of dollars having power. The problem is you, not the wealth.
Today’s economic policy in the US and Europe is a disaster. Many billionaires in the US and Europe became billionaires through the kinds of corrupt government policies you push: large amounts of government spending, large amounts of regulation, and high taxes. And instead of fixing that problem, you want to pour gasoline on the fire, by raising taxes and spending even higher.
Rich people have too much power so we need to give government more power to control the rich people. Whoops! Rich people have taken over the government! We need to give more power to the government so it can control the rich people who control it! Oh no! Rich people still control the government! We need to give more power to the government so it can control the rich people who control it! Oh no! Rich people still control the government! We need to give more power to the government so it can control the rich people who control it! Oh no! Rich people still control the government!
How the fuck does wealth not have a distribution?
I should have said “forced redistribution” but I thought it was obvious.
What you are talking about is literally stealing from people simply because they make you feel bad. That’s what your socialist policies come down to. You want to use government force against people because of how they make you feel. Not because they hurt anyone or cause harm. In fact most rich people (excluding politicians who amass wealth by exempting themselves from the law) gain their wealth by providing something of value to someone. Microsoft operating system. Apple iPhones. Amazon shopping. These people should be celebrated, not robbed.
No, it is not “your absolute right” to redistribute wealth in a society. In fact, doing so is morally reprehensible.
But quite apart from the moral problems with it, it doesn’t work: the more you redistribute wealth in a society, the worse off the poorest in a society get.
It’s morally reprehensible to redistribute wealth… starting when? Now? Now is the most just and correct distribution? What an amazing coincidence. So every time you bitched about any economic policy made until today was wasted breath. We got there in the end!
I need you to consider the possibility that you don’t know what you’re talking about. That you’re throwing Ayn Randian horseshit at a simple math problem.
And if we can’t make our own economic policy by democratic means, who gets to make it?
Always. Historically, the purpose of taxation wasn’t redistribution of wealth, but provision of government services.
No, the current distribution is very far from “just and correct” because of government redistribution. The more government redistribution there is, the more unjust the distribution becomes.
Historically, the purpose of taxation wasn’t redistribution of wealth, but provision of government services.
I’ve had this argument with Tony before. He doesn’t see a difference between the two.
And it’s taking a very short term view of “historically”, too. Historically, in the longer perspective, taxation started out as redistribution of wealth, (From those who had it, to those who had the weapons.) and provision of services became an excuse. The robber barons had to suppress competing robbers to maintain the traffic THEY robbed.
Classic example of a parasite evolving into a symbiote, and as is generally the case in such evolutions, backsliding is common. Your own intestinal bacteria will eat you alive if they’re exposed to indications that you’re dying, for instance.
good comment
(1) “Wealth redistribution via taxation” refers only to taking money from the wealthy and giving it to the less wealthy; so, the historical example you are referring to isn’t actually an example of the modern term of “wealth redistribution”.
(2) Monarchies and other forms of government and taxation didn’t arise out of some strongmen willy-nilly grabbing power, they were the result of existential threats against societies. People banded together for common defense, they selected military leaders, and only over time did those became more permanent, as they started to translate their military powers into civilian authority and taxation.
Riiight, robber barons weren’t a thing.
Nope, governments are just highly evolved protection rackets that like to tell that tale you recited, because “we rule because if you don’t let us we’ll kill you” is bad PR.
You really wallow in your ignorance and propaganda, don’t you, Kuni?
I emigrated from a shithole country with low income inequality to a free country with high income inequality. Income inequality is a good thing.
I would say that the actual cause, (Not proximate, but the important one.) of income inequality in the US, is the ‘progressive’ income tax.
Consider two scenarios: A Billion dollars spread evenly across 20K people, $50K each in income. And that same billion, only 19K people have $20K incomes, and 1K have $620K incomes.
With a flat tax rate, both scenarios result in the government getting the same tax revenue. With ‘progressive’ taxation, OTOH, the latter scenario results in much higher revenues, because most of the income is experienced by people with higher tax rates. So it’s in the government’s own interest to promote income inequality!
Add the fact that the wealthy can be a source of kickbacks to politicians, while the moderately well off have no excess to pay off politicians, nor interest in doing so. And you can buy the votes of the poor so much more cheaply than the votes of the moderately well off!
It’s in the interest of politicians to promote income inequality, just from a selfish perspective, aside from the available revenue.
Is it any wonder that, as government gets more powerful, income inequality rises?
Do you mean like VP Harris, or the Big Guy?
There was nothing pernicious about the consensus in favor of eugenics, it’s just that it was used by some as an excuse to do evil. Same as nuclear power. And unfortunately the use of those things for evil led to a pernicious rejection, leading to over-caution, of those things.
The only things about eugenics that were pernicious were its use by coercion (which you could say is a bad thing about guns, too) and that it was premature. Not as much was known about genetics as was thought at the time. However, without genetics we wouldn’t’ve had Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, by which we learned a lot more about genetics.
Sorry, I meant without eugenics we wouldn’t’ve had Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory.
the study of how to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable
Each person has their own view of what is ‘desirable’, usually more like them, of course. So how could this be carried out by a central authority without coercion? And some characteristics are beneficial on one chromosome, but deleterious if on both (e.g. sickle cell anemia). How should that be handled?
So, no, eugenics is inherently a terrible idea.
“Ha! It’s poetry in motion
She turned her tender eyes to me
As deep as any ocean
As sweet as any harmony
Mm, but she blinded me with science
(She blinded me with science!)
And failed me in biology, yeah”
I wonder if Dunning and Kruger took their own hypothesis into account?
And the BIG QUESTION of the day is…
How much of this “study” is entirely a SELF-REFLECTION of the mentality of those that preformed this study…
Consider the running rate of incompetent to realize just how incompetent they are when the word ‘climate change’ is spouted; I’d be shooting a self-reflection rate close to 100%.
Oh no, you deniers are a small minority at this point. Barely even a buzzing bee.
Fuck off and die, idiot.
It’s not incompetency at all. I can see and know exactly how a flush toilet works. I know not the names of the “parts” of the flush toilet, so I cannot put, how a flush toilet works in my own words. It has nothing to do with incompetency (as exemplified by our fine president) but it has ALL to do with “language”, and using words of explanation. If you consider that to be straight “incompetency, so be it.
Some maintain that incompetence is the worst form of corruption. This “administration” would seem to confirm that, as it is the most corrupt in history. And given Clinton and Obama, that’s saying something.
The fact they cite Galileo at all shows just how unserious these researchers are. Gally got in trouble because he demanded his discovery be taught as dogmatic church truth and when told to piss up a rope decided insulting the pope in a pamphlet that he then distributed as far as he was able was a good idea. Moreover, no fellow scientist was willing to defend him at trial because he was such a raging asshole to other scientists about their work if he disagreed with it that they refused to stick their necks out.
Are you saying that Galileo got what he deserved?
Is your simplistic history about the relationship between science, religion, and the church crumbling before your eyes?
Not yet, but you’re welcome to give it another shot. Why, again, should we sacrifice freedom in favor of an inescapable society-wide imposition of religious dogma, and not just any religious dogma, but one that might be responsible for more spilled blood than any other in human history? Still looking for those witches?
Honey, dearest, the laws of the US and Europe are fundamentally based on Christian dogma and Christian theology. There is nothing you “should sacrifice”, that is the status quo.
And teaching kids about Christianity in school isn’t an “imposition of religious dogma”, it is simply giving people a liberal arts education. And except for the US, most of the West does that too.
Both of these historical facts form the basis of modern liberal democracies.
Judaea-Christian ethics, yes, dogma and theology, no.
What’s communism have to do with witches?
“You don’t know what you don’t know”
Oh the “climate change” warriors. All you have to do is look at the warm weather records for your area from the Nat Weather Service
https://www.weather.gov/pbz/twarm
Surprisingly it’s not dominated by recent years at all. Weird huh?
Also you can’t use weather
If you think that you can reliably power the grid with just windmills and solar panels AND on top of it make all vehicles electric you’re a moron
Just that headline alone, if the study is accurate, implicates the Fauci fraud and every social media cancellation of truth about the toxic jab.
Just as the incompetent don’t know they’re incompetent, the stupid are the last to know they’re stupid.
I can stop reading now, right?
Anyway, the whole study will be canceled by the left, once they notice this question:
OK, but seriously…
The North Pole is a sheet of ice? Really? Really? That’s what the North Pole is? OK, maybe that was a typo; they forgot the word “on”. But how do we know there weren’t similar typos in the actual survey?
Pathology may not *be* the study of the human body, but it sure does study the human body a lot.
It probably is. But considering that we can not *see* the edge of the universe, and that if something is 8 billion light years away it would take 8 billion years to observe any change, I don’t know how anyone can say with 100% certainty. Especially with everything we don’t know.
Another typo which totally changes the meaning! “Definitely get the vaccine” listed twice, once on both ends. Was this typo in the original survey? If so, wouldn’t that potentially effect the results? If not, exactly how many of these questions were different on the survey than in the report? (Not to mention that the implications of this question were rather different at that time, considering that any vaccines at the time of that survey would not have completed testing yet!)
I mean, I doubt it’s a major way it’s transmitted, but you’re asserting it can’t be transmitted this way? That it’s literally impossible? What gave you this knowledge (especially back in mid-2020 when the survey was conducted)? The link you give doesn’t make this assertion.
“They might well have noted the pernicious consensus in favor of eugenics that prevailed in the early 20th century.”
It’s probably worth mentioning that there was nothing particularly unscientific about eugenics. Hugely immoral in some of it’s implementations, certainly, and the Nazis sure gave it a bad name by using it as an excuse to commit genocide.
But humans are as subject to improvement by selective breeding as any other species. Or of being gradually degraded if you set up some perverse incentive where the best people don’t have kids, and stupid layabouts do.
Eugenics is a perfectly horrible example of people not realizing what the science really is. It was abandoned for moral reasons, not scientific.
“a 7-point scale about each of seven scientific topics ranging from “vague understanding” to “thorough understanding.”
Well I spot a study design flaw right away. How is “vague understanding” the starting point? The actual starting point is “I have no fucking idea what you are talking about.”
#2 is “I’ve heard of that but no idea how it works.”
It would be at least #3, maybe #4, before we get to “vague understanding.”
“…Incompetent People Are Often Too Incompetent To Realize Just How Incompetent They Are…”
Joe Biden is the personification of this principle. He’s so dumb, he does not possess enough intelligence to know that he is dumb, or how dumb he actually is.
When you can refute what you deny and prove what you claim you won’t be what’s wrong with society. Until then, you are.
As an addendum: The Evolution of Overconfidence, https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0909/0909.4043.pdf