Supreme Court Debates Whether Web Designers Can Be Forced To Make Gay Wedding Pages
A million hypotheticals bloom in arguments over when and where the government may compel speech.

Whether designing a webpage for customers counts as speech and therefore whether a designer could be compelled by Colorado law to design wedding pages for same-sex couples took center stage before the Supreme Court this morning.
Creative 303 LLC vs. Elenis came before the Court this morning and brought with it a tangled thicket of competing Supreme Court precedents about when the government can compel businesses or institutions to pass along messages or ideas they object to. At the heart of this case, Lorie Smith, owner of Creative 303 LLC, wants to design web pages for weddings. But she has religious objections to same-sex marriage and doesn't want to design pages to celebrate gay couples. This puts her at odds with the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act, and so she has gone to federal court to try to get a ruling in her favor.
In a debate surpassing two hours, the justices discussed whether Smith is actually engaged in "expressive speech" if she doesn't put her own messages on these webpages, the distinctions between rejecting a customer and rejecting a statement, and which Supreme Court precedents should influence this case's outcome.
Kristen Waggoner, Smith's attorney and a lawyer for Alliance Defending Freedom, wanted the Court to turn to Hurley v. Irish-American Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Group of Boston, a 1995 case where the Supreme Court ruled that the organizers of Boston's St. Patrick's Day Parade could not be compelled to allow marchers bearing a banner for the gay organization into the parade, which would have forced them to convey a message of support parade organizers did not agree with.
Colorado was represented by Solicitor General Eric Olson and bolstered by Brian Fletcher, principal deputy solicitor general of the United States. The Justice Department agrees with Colorado that Smith does not have the option to simply turn away all same-sex couples. They asked the Court to use Rumsfeld v. Forum for Academic and Institutional Rights, Inc. as a guiding precedent. That 2006 decision held that colleges could be compelled to provide space for military recruiters despite any moral objections they may have.
Smith has not been accused of turning away anybody as yet. She has asked the Court to rule before she begins turning away same-sex clients as is within her First Amendment rights. So, the debate this morning revolved around several hypothetical situations, since neither side has any actual examples of Smith turning anybody away.
In a fashion similar to those who followed Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado, the justices questioned the boundaries of what actually counted as speech or expression. Throughout the proceedings, Justice Elena Kagan mulled over the difference between a wedding site where a designer simply plugged in information provided to them and a site where the designer was actually expected to craft particular messages celebrating the marriage. She noted that the examples of sites Creative 303 included didn't appear to state any sort of celebratory messages but did wonder whether Smith could be compelled to add "God bless this union" onto a site against her religious convictions. While there seemed to be an agreement that she could not be compelled to do so, the justices struggled to find where the line between speech and discrimination was drawn. In Masterpiece, the Supreme Court punted that central question. Now, they're revisiting it.
Waggoner saw the line as pretty easy to determine: Smith's webpages and their content all count as Smith's speech. It's up to Smith to decide what she would and would not allow to be included on the webpages she was designing. Olson and Fletcher argued that Smith's rejection of same-sex marriages was essentially the equivalent of rejecting same-sex customers (Waggoner and Smith disagree) because it was a case where the conduct and the identity of the customer are "inextricably entwined."
The more conservative justice seemed inclined toward siding with Smith, concerned about future hypothetical cases where a freelance speechwriter could be forced to write speeches for political candidates or positions he or she found disagreeable. Could a freelance public relations professional be forced to write a release for the Church of Scientology?
Justice Amy Coney Barrett wondered if a site serving the gay community could be required to run heterosexual wedding announcements alongside same-sex ones. Olson responded that the site probably wouldn't hold itself out as a "public accommodation," but if it did, it would be required to run them. There was a fairly brief discussion of whether there were limits to what the government classifies a "public accommodation" that perhaps could have been fleshed out more. Colorado appears to have a very broad definition that includes nearly any good or service that is offered "to the public."
Justice Neil Gorsuch noted the amicus brief by the Cato Institute, joined by UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh (of The Volokh Conspiracy) and Southern Methodist University Dedman School of Law professor Dale Carpenter (also a contributor to The Volokh Conspiracy) in support of Smith. Though Volokh and Carpenter had taken Colorado's side against wedding cake baker Jack Phillips, they're supporting Smith in this case, arguing that "forcing her to create websites to which she objects is a speech compulsion." Gorsuch also incidentally described the anti-discrimination training that Phillips was ordered to undergo (before the Supreme Court ruled in his favor) as "re-education."
It is very difficult to predict based on today's debate what exactly the Supreme Court could decide. Because of the intersection of First Amendment protections and public accommodation discrimination protections, the questions were far-ranging and hit many areas. It seems likely that the ruling will be in favor of Creative 303, but it's also clear that the justices are looking for the right place to put a dividing line between protecting people from compelled speech and the government's interest in enforcing public accommodation laws. "How do you draw the line?" was a question raised in several contexts by multiple justices. We'll find out in the spring.
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What is the compelling government interest in requiring a specific web designer to provide this service?
Is a protected class underserved?
The compelling government interest is 'obey'. It doesn't matter what, just obey.
I recall that the full quotation is "Obey or die".
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The complexity of this issue demands the superior application of logic to navigate and discern clear justice.
We expect that this is the precise skill that Supreme Court justices possess.
I’ll give it a shot. I’ll try to define the issue unambiguously to preclude conflicting conclusions.
The layman’s description of the issue is “does a commercial web designer have the responsibility to create something that advocates LGBT behaviour”.
Design differs from mere service as the creativity of the designer is how the service is judged.
Can someone honestly represent their business creatively advocating something that they cannot in good faith advocate?
This demand for creativity is in stark contrast to merely allowing people to trade.
I would suggest that they cannot as compelling someone with force to act in someone else’s interest instead of their own, is coercion.
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They should be debating if Moslem cake decorator can be forced to decorate a cake with the image of the prophet Muhammad. It is the same thing. Forcing someone to commit what they believe is a religious sacrilege. But they won't.
See: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Charlie Hebdo has a history of attracting controversy. In 2006, Islamic organisations under French hate speech laws unsuccessfully sued over the newspaper's re-publication of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons of Muhammad.[8][9][10] The cover of a 2011 issue retitled Charia Hebdo (French for Sharia Weekly), featured a cartoon of Muhammad, whose depiction is forbidden in most interpretations of Islam, with some Persian exceptions
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-charlie-hebdo-murders_b_6560974
Charlie Hebdo attack: Three days of terror
The monstrous slaughter at the French magazine Charlie Hebdo brought hundreds of thousands of marchers and numerous world leaders onto the streets of Paris to support free expression. But the attacks really were not about freedom of speech. Rather, the killings demonstrated how the destructive phenomenon of religious persecution is spreading from Third World dictatorships to First World democracies. Religious minorities long have faced murder and prison around the world. Now the freedom not to believe by majorities in Western democracies is under attack.
They fear the Islamic response.
je suis Charlie. Draw Mohammed Day always worth a giggle
As repugnant as they are, every time the Colorado baker is slapped with a new lawsuit, a cynical part of me wants Westbrook Baptist to hunt down some gay-owned print shop and order "Leviticus 18:22" gear. I kinda want to see the KKK order a bunch of "White Power" stuff from black-owned clothing stores.
I have noticed that the gay community never seems to try to pick a fight with Muslim shop owners, I wonder why that is?
Crowder did a bit where he went to Muslim bakers to order gay wedding cakes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgWIhYAtan4&ab_channel=StevenCrowder
Stare decisis is all about refusing to admit they ever made a mistake.
Stare decisis is about not wanting to stand in the shitstorm if they overturn an unconstitutional but popular precedent.
Like Roe v. Wade?
1 out of 2 ain't bad.
Are we really having this debate?
Ctrl+f ‘230’ 0 results.
Isn’t it totally weird how the 1A of the internet protects some speech(, religion, free association, or not…) on the internet but not other speech on the internet? Almost like it has nothing to do with protecting religion, or association, and is specifically written to protect businesses that block material deemed offensive.
Section 230 is not the first amendment and has nothing to do with this. Section 230 assigns the responsibility for illegal speech to the individuals who create it rather than platforms that passively host it.
So wait, what happens to all those "section 230 is the first amendment of the internet" articles we got out of Reason?
Unfortunately, there is nothing in the Constitution about "freedom of business". This whole issue wouldn't even be an issue if not for the business aspect.
There would not be a case if this were a private photographer at home. There would not be a case if this were a church taking the pictures. There would not be a case if this were a non-business dude creating a webpage for his sister.
But because it's a business, and the government has a (so it says) interest in regulating any and all business activities (again, so it says), then this becomes an issue. It's sad.
There is freedom of speech but there is no freedom of business. I was explicitly told this in college decades ago. Your freedom to speech ends where you first earn some money at it. It's why prostitution is illegal, Sex is legal . Sex in exchange for dinner and a movie is legal. Sex in exchange for a gold diamond ring is legal. But sex in exchange for one dollar is illegal.
Once you make a buck you are tainted and are fair game to having your First Amendment rights stripped from you.
I'm curious on what's the core arguments on this for the difference between this and twitter (or any internet social media) blocking some speech? If this is successful does this mean twitter would have to allow any and all? I've only thought about this from a very top level cursory look but it seems like if one is allowed then all should be?
Twitter always allowed any and all from the Left, and that was okay with the Establishment. We're just talking about coercing the Right here, 'cause fuck you that's why.
The Smith case revolves around a protected class. Social media moderation isn’t. Those are about the messages.
You know it's going to come down to author vs. publisher or editor vs. printer, right?
At which point, Roberts will will the position "publinters" or "edinters" into existence.
Well, as we were told repeatedly, Twitter is a private business and can block whatever it wants.
Full of Buckminster is correct. Sexual orientation is a protected class, political orientation is not, simple as that.
could be compelled by Colorado law to design wedding pages for same-sex couples took center stage before the Supreme Court this morning.
Perhaps the most libertarian governor in the country could weigh in here.
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I think we should jump the shark here and debate if web designers should be required to learn to bake gay cakes if called upon to do so.
Learn to cook.
Good one!
So design the site just like she would any other wedding site, replete with scripture references and Christian images.
Anybody tried to get an Islamic civic center for a bar-b-que yet?
I get you are hinting at barbecuing pigs specifically, but in the general muslims are (in my gastronomic experience) pretty damn good at barbecue (as long as you're in the mood for chicken, goat, mutton, beef, etc).
I wonder what hair-splitting Volohk is doing to justify treating this differently than baking a cake.
It's a work for hire, that it involves words? Images? So did the cake.
He joined the brief from Cato supporting Smith. Per the article.
He did. But he took the opposition position in Masterpiece.
To Agammamon's question, I remember the difference being that he considered the cake decorations to be insufficiently expressive. I have to admit that I was uncompelled by that part of his argument.
I may also be wrong. If I am remembering that incorrectly, please correct me.
I agree. I was disappointed when volokh did that.
The legal answer should be no. The libertarian answer is also no. What is difficult here Scott?
conservative justice
Scott, why is this descriptor on some justices but you didnt use liberal or left leaning as a descriptor prior for the leftist judges?
There are only “moderates” on the one side, and “the far right” on the other.
Is that so hard to remember?
Fair.
Scott is an authoritarian progressive leftist who has no concern for the rights or liberties of others so long as he gets what makes him feel good.
Where's the libertarian take?
Business owners should be able to do what they want. If the nation-slash-community doesn't like it, they'll sink.
Govt can't discriminate or pass forcing to. And that is is. Economic liberty demands a seller and buyer both approve of the transaction. "public accommodation" sounds like a hole a mile wide to allow govt to interfere with private parties. This isn't hard...if I don't like bald people or short people why should I be forced to sell to them. Again the poorly written CRA (or maybe it was written to allow for social engineering) comes back to haunt the Volokh brigade. the answer is easy...you have the right as a seller and buyer to discriminate.
For my part, a private business should have the right to refuse service to anyone at any time for any reason (or no reason), even stupid and perhaps evil reasons. My expectation is that the consequences of stupid and/or evil reasons would be that the business finds itself out-of-business sooner rather than later.
OTOH, a business owner who takes a stand may warrant support rather than ridicule. A Jewish caterer should be able to refuse to provide food to a Nation of Islam event. A gay florist should be able to refuse to provide decorations for a wedding at Westbrook Baptist Church. A black-owned technology company should be able to refuse to provide email service to the local KKK. A Muslim baker should not have to accept an order to make a cake with the image of the prophet etched in icing.
The legal environment, however, is different. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits workplace discrimination based on religion, national origin, race, color, or sex. This generally extends to discrimination against customers.
Under the law, the gay florist can apparently be forced to decorate the church because to refuse would be a Title VII violation. The Jewish caterer could apparently be forced to provide halal food service to the notably anti-Semitic "church".
But hey, it's OKAY to deny service if the customer is "hateful"...
Richmond Restaurant Denies Pro-Family Group Dinner Service (thefederalist.com)
About an hour and a half before the event was set to take place, one of the restaurant’s owners called our team to cancel. An employee had looked up our organization, and their wait staff refused to serve us.
Their official explanation was that our pro-life and pro-traditional-marriage positions violated the “basic human rights” of women and LGBT individuals.
Oh what a tangled we we weave
When first we practice to deceive
If the guiding principle had been liberty, especially in this realm as freedom of association as embodies in "We reserve the right to refuse service for any reason", none of these cases would ever have been a problem.
As a snark, I wonder how many judges and lawyers have had the urge to ask the offended why on earth they want to force expressive artistic art from someone who hates them so much that they have to be taken to court at a cost of several hundred thousand dollars, possibly millions, and long after the joyous even has happened?
As a snark, I wonder how many judges and lawyers have had the urge to ask the offended why on earth they want to force expressive artistic art from someone who hates them so much that they have to be taken to court at a cost of several hundred thousand dollars, possibly millions, and long after the joyous even has happened?
As I understand it, there is an overwhelming urge to butt fuck complete strangers that the tenets of monogamous unions attempts to constrain.
As lawyers, the judges and justices are hypocrites on this. Lawyers decline to represent clients every day because they find their beliefs or actions reprehensible, and they all think that's just fine. Why isn't a law office a "public accommodation" if a cake decorator, a photo studio, or a web design company is?
And there is an enumerated constitutional right to counsel, no such enumeration exists for the wedding cakes or websites.
Why isn’t a law office a “public accommodation” if a cake decorator, a photo studio, or a web design company is?
Because the assholes, that impose these liberty-killing laws on us, are mostly lawyers, themselves and it is standard that the law be applied to thee, but not to me.
Ain't our "legal" system grand?
Many d.c. lawyers refused to represent J6 protestors or trump. They deserve the right to choose.
Unfortunately, there is no "freedom of association" in the Constitution. Even worse, there is no freedom of business.
Government in the time of the founding fathers was all about regulating businesses. The big beef with England and George III is that the founders wanted to do the regulating themselves for themselves.
The only reason we got liberty out of the deal is because we had thirteen mostly ungovernable colonies, so we got set up as a federation instead of a centralized nation state. Heck, it wasn't until the 14th amendment that the bill of rights was extended to the states.
Heck, it wasn’t until the 14th amendment that the bill of rights was extended to the states.
It was?
Then how come I constantly have my right to keep and bear arms infringed upon by the state, in which I live?
The courts have been reading freedom of association into the first amendment for a long time, but sometimes balance that against non-discrimination from the fourteenth amendment.
How about the court broaden the case to revisit freedom of association?
That is what they absolutely do NOT want to do.
learn to code.
Fuck Colorado (especially the new Colofornia version).
But Polis is so dreamy.
Most libertarian governor of all time!
If you don't count Trudeau.
i wish these arguments didn't always seem to be about someone or something i'd generally not support. i'm not really in favor of having "christian homophobes" as allies...
crazy that something as ridiculous and personal as this is being argued before the Soops.
It's the people you don't support you've got to be most scrupulous about protecting. Anyone can be protective of their own rights.
Sort of like the ACLU used to be.
Why does believing in a religious sacrament make them a bigot?
I wish you'd go put a bullet through your pedophile faggot skull, shreek.
Because it is the "homophiles" who are imposing their will on dissenters.
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
H.L. Mencken
i wish these arguments didn’t always seem to be about someone or something i’d generally not support. i’m not really in favor of having “christian homophobes” as allies…
crazy that something as ridiculous and personal as this is being argued before the Soops.
Thing is, are you REALLY a supporter of liberty if you simply accept the leftist definition of 'christian homophobes' for people they dislike?
You say [quotes]christian homophobes[/quotes]. If you don’t think they’re actually homophobes, what’s the problem in defending them?
If you’re quoting someone else using the term “christian homophobes” and asserting that the people someone else’s label identifies are part of the problem, well that’s crazy. Like Ye’s “TEH JOOZ!”, crazy.
I'd like to pose a hypothetical. Let's say the Stonewall in NYC decided to rent out space for Pride Month. Now, let's say, as part of a strategy, the Westboro Baptist Church (I'm assuming using a lawyer to disguise their identity) managed to snag the space. And they were going to festoon the location with a banners about how "God hates F**gots!" and showing gay people getting stabbed with pitchforks by the devil while on fire. And of course using their audio system to broadcast their particular message to all the Pride attendees. I don't see where the Stonewall would have much of a ground to deny them if the case is decided against Smith. I mean, after all, religion is also a protected class.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Some protected classes are more protected than others, comrade.
As repugnant as they are, every time the Colorado baker is slapped with a new lawsuit, a cynical part of me wants Westbrook Baptist to hunt down some gay-owned print shop and order "Leviticus 18:22" gear. I kinda want to see the KKK order a bunch of "White Power" stuff from black-owned clothing stores. I want to see people demanding that Muslim bakeries produce cakes with the image of the prophet done up in icing.
IIRC that was a factor in the original (non) decision for the cake shop case. SCOTUS found that the statute was not being equally applied and was thus invalid in its application because someone tried to get another cake shop to make a cake saying there are only 2 genders or some other anti-trans message, and when they refused he went to the CO anti discrimination dept or whatever and complained but that case never went anywhere.
Why government should oblige any induvial is beyond me. the question should not be religious or gay the problem should be compelling. for statist out there all people are equal by law would design site for a nazi wedding or anything you hate this date? is making a business design something about Russian winning Ukraine you can not find a religious argument for that.
that should be your right to not provide service
Speaking of religious freedom that other dreamboat Zelensky just banned the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine.
Sounds like he's moving Ukraine ever closer to the libertarian dream: a godless totalitarian society ruled by a puppet government installed in a color revolution by a corrupt cabal of internationalist billionaires.
He banned the Russian orthodox church months ago.
What he did this time is also ban (and confiscate property of) the Ukrainian orthodox church because it wouldn't sever ties with the Russian orthodox church.
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No. Next.
Govt can't discriminate or pass forcing to. And that is is. Economic liberty demands a seller and buyer both approve of the transaction. "public accommodation" sounds like a hole a mile wide to allow govt to interfere with private parties. This isn't hard...if I don't like bald people or short people why should I be forced to sell to them. Again the poorly written CRA (or maybe it was written to allow for social engineering) comes back to haunt the Volokh brigade. the answer is easy...you have the right as a seller and buyer to discriminate.
Code is copyrightable. If it were purely functional, it wouldn't be eligible for copyright. Ergo, it not purely functional; it is creative speech.
Not all code is copyrightable.
Purely functional code is not copyrightable.
Is there anyone who writes code which is *not* intended to be purely functional?
Why not just have the Dobbs leaker leak this decision? Speaking of the Dobbs leaker, has anyone heard anything regarding ~any~ suspects? That story has been so memory holed that the Tara Reide is a household name by comparison.
Because there was no leaker. The "leak" was ordered by the Court. But maybe you know that--I'm no good at reading between lines.
Is there any chance you Koch-suckers might assign a story about a SCOTUS case involving faggots forcing their lifestyle onto Christians to oh, I dunno, someone with any legal training whatsoever or maybe even your token pro-abortion, pro-infanticide, pro-faggotry commie catholic instead of passing them all off to your token faggot as if the only perspective on the issue was the faggot's?
Choosing what you put on your website, or what websites you publish, isn't freedom of "speech" -- it's freedom of the press (note the verb "publish"). No one should be compelled to publish anything they don't agree with.
So basically it comes down to whatever Kavanaugh decides, since Roberts apparently has no independent thought, but will go with the majority.
Also, lest we forget, whatever gets ruled by the Courts in this decision could and likely will, under the RFMA, apply across state lines. The invocation of "full faith and credit" doesn't make sense otherwise. If "my sheep" follow my rules on my side of the fence and "your sheep" follow yours on your side, no faith and credit needed. Faith and credit is only needed if "my sheep" are expected to turn up on your side of the fence and I need you to do something about that (or vice versa).
The religious exemptions of the RFMA are an obvious smokescreen. If they protected businesses like 303 Creative, or any business, "full faith and credit" would be moot. If it's not moot, it's because the bill is specifically written to distribute power from agencies and acts like Colorado's Anti-Discrimination Act well outside CO's borders.
I don't see how. The RFMA applies the full faith and credit clause with respect to marriage certificates filed in other states, I don't see how it would be interpreted to extend anti-discrimination laws further than they are already understood to extend under the clause.
Here, Scott, this is what you want really looks like.
They didn't want anyone to design anything. They didn't want any message decorations.
They wanted to use the tables and order from the menu.
https://thefederalist.com/2022/12/05/richmond-restaurant-denies-pro-life-pro-family-group-dinner-service-over-christian-values/
If you open a business and use public roads, your children publicly funded schools, if you pay income tax and enjoy the protection of America's military, you have no right to discriminate against your clients, customers or patients. Permitting racists and religious nuts to refuse to provide service will lead to doctors refusing to treat gay people. There is no room for discrimination in America. Those who justify it on religious grounds are loathful bigots.
So long as there are soldiers and roads, you need to conform to traditional marital norms.
Without traditional marriage, men's dicks will fall off.
Don’t ask me to defend the logic of those assertions, I’m substituting table-pounding for logic.
So I guess it’s a draw between us.
"There is no room for discrimination in America."
Fuck that stupid "liberty" talk, amirite, comrade?
You’re having trouble with the whole freedom of association, freedom of speech thing right? What’s immoral or reprehensible to one is just following faith to another…sorry, doesn’t necessarily make it illegal. Wait until about June. Remember your statement. Of course, you will still find them “loathful bigots” as is your constitutionally protected right; however, they won’t be wrong in the eyes of the law. Or the invalidated Colorado law as the case may be.
Oh, is there still room for hypocrites?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/inclusive-restaurant-turns-away-christian-group-because-of-its-beliefs-who-s-the-bigot/ar-AA152NJY?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=89ac1f48f0ef48509855e3c4918f6094
Die in a hail of gunfire is always an option.
Only if you already work as a hooker? Makes sense as an extension of this law that sex workers can refuse you.
You are apparently transphobic if you don't want to date a guy in a dress who says he's a woman, so yeah, it's probably inevitable.
A leaked email has revealed that trans lobby group Stonewall tried to suppress an investigation into claims that some trans women have been pressuring lesbians for sex. The email shows that the body tried to suppress the investigation even before it was published, later claiming that debating the issues was equivalent to ‘sexual racism’.
I expect we'll see more people choosing that option in the future.
Here's someone who did, and, unsurprisingly, in Colorado:
https://www.kunc.org/news/2020-02-20/granbys-bulldozer-rampage-captured-the-worlds-attention-now-its-a-documentary
Yeah, a man who won't suck a lady's dick is obviously insecure about his masculinity.