The Government Can't Fix Social Media Moderation and Should Not Try
Democrats and Republicans both demand solutions that are inconsistent with the First Amendment.

Despite their increasingly bitter differences, Democrats and Republicans generally agree that content moderation by social media companies is haphazard at best. But while Democrats tend to think the main problem is too much speech of the wrong sort, Republicans complain that platforms like Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube are biased against them.
The government cannot resolve this dispute and should not try. Siding with the critics who complain about online "misinformation" poses an obvious threat to free inquiry and open debate. And while attempting to mandate evenhandedness might seem more consistent with those values, it undermines the freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment in a more subtle but equally troubling way.
Under a Texas law that the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit declined to block last week, the leading social media platforms are forbidden to discriminate against users or messages based on "viewpoint." The "censorship" that Texas has banned includes not just outright removal of content and cancellation of accounts but also any steps that make posts less visible, accessible, or lucrative.
That means platforms are obliged to treat all posts equally, no matter how objectionable their content. With narrow exceptions for speech that is not constitutionally protected, Facebook et al. are not allowed to favor tolerance over bigotry, peace over violence, or verifiably true historical or scientific claims over demonstrably false ones.
While such neutrality is constitutionally mandatory for the government, imposing it on private actors violates the First Amendment right to exercise editorial discretion. The companies that challenged the law cited a line of Supreme Court decisions recognizing that right in a wide range of contexts, including a newspaper's selection of articles, a utility's control over the content of its newsletter, and a private organization's vetting of participants in a St. Patrick's Day parade.
Even assuming those cases established a general right to exercise editorial discretion, the 5th Circuit said, that is not an accurate description of what social media platforms are doing when they decide that certain posts are beyond the pale. Because they rely heavily on algorithms, do not review content before publication, and take action against only a tiny percentage of messages, Judge Andrew Oldham declared in the majority opinion, Facebook et al. "are nothing like" a newspaper.
Writing in dissent, Judge Leslie Southwick objected to that characterization. While "none of the precedents fit seamlessly," Southwick said, a social media platform's right to curate content is analogous to "the right of newspapers to control what they do and do not print."
That right has never been contingent on whether editors do their jobs thoughtfully, consistently, or fairly. As the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit observed when it blocked enforcement of Florida's social media law in May, "private actors have a First Amendment right to be 'unfair'—which is to say, a right to have and express their own points of view."
Oldham rejected the argument that social media companies are expressing a point of view when they make moderation decisions based on "amorphous goals" like maintaining "a welcoming community" (YouTube), fostering "authenticity, safety, privacy, and dignity" (Facebook), or ensuring that "all people can participate in the public conversation freely and safely" (Twitter). Yet the conservatives who want the government to restrict moderation decisions take it for granted that social media companies have an ideological agenda—one that is hostile to people on the right.
If social media platforms pursued that agenda more explicitly and systematically, Oldham's argument implies, the government might be obliged to respect their decisions. The more proactive and heavy-handed they were, the stronger their First Amendment claim would be.
Should the Supreme Court resolve the split between the 5th and 11th circuits by endorsing Oldham's reasoning, platforms that want to escape Texas-style regulation might decide that broader and tighter content restrictions are the way to go. By trying to mandate a diversity of opinions, the government could achieve the opposite result.
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Free speech is important. Censorship by tech companies is just as bad as censorship by the government. And we've learned that some of it is at the behest of the government.
But beyond that, there is no cut and dried separation between government, media, and big tech.
Politicians are still politicians even when they quit government to work at high levels in the media or big tech. They might not have lethal force at their direct disposal, but they still have ties to their former colleagues and can impose their own politics on society by employing that corporation's power to squash dissent. And we are seeing just that.
“The government cannot resolve this dispute and should not try.“
That’s bullshit! The “state” both keeps and enforces all the inalienable rights in the constitution. The word inalienable means rights that can’t be taken, sold or given away. We carry them with us.
First among them is free speech.
If anyone is invited to speak anywhere, censoring the content is a violation of the first amendment subject to persecution under the law.
Content moderation is a crime.
"Content moderation is a crime."
Sieg Heil to the NAZI who says that lies should be outlawed!
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Have you ever considered why you can’t recognize when you are and aren’t lying?
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Content moderation is a crime.
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When lying is criminalized, newspapers will either print the truth or nothing at all.
That will end propaganda, to your chagrin, limiting the coercive power of mass media.
And journalism will flourish with renewed honour.
I don’t see any downside.
When lying is criminalized
In this thread, our resident stormfag once again calls for the abrogation of the 1A.
Is gun crime an abrogation of 2a?
Neither is criminalizing the coercion of lying an abrogation of 1a.
Try to curb your trolling and stay on topic.
And the circular logic goes round and round, round and round, round and round.
And blatant false equivalency.
You accuse my logic of being in error but provide zero evidence to even make an argument much less prove it.
You can’t prove what you claim or refute what you deny. You choke. Hahaha.
Ok, I'll go around again.
A right of one individual does not confer an obligation on another. I have the right to say or print what I like. You have no obligation to read or listen.
I have the right to keep and bear arms. You do not have the obligation let me shoot you.
I know as a nazi stormfag you had to dumb yourself down, but try to remember this time.
“A right of one individual does not confer an obligation on another.“
You are obligated to respect my rights.
Done and done.
"At 4:00 you'll all be TWO FEET TALL!"—Rob Misek
Your lie, for all time.
there is no cut and dried separation between government, media, and big tech"
This is the problem that needs to be addressed.
I'm sympathetic to conservatives' concerns here, but they are going after 1A protections and it will come back to bite them. Who will enforce these laws?: The same people that are the problem now?; How will they enforce these laws?: As they see fit?
How will that be different from the one sided enforcement we see today? Your answer is essentially "lie back and accept the rape" sorry, but you fascists need to be resisted by any means necessary and a polite request for equal treatment is a small ask.
"you fascists" Ooh burn. I've lost all credibility due to your astute criticism.
"How will that be different from the one sided enforcement we see today?"
It's different because you've given the oppressor more power.
My answer is closer to lie back and accept the rape rather than giving the rapist more power for more raping in ways you've never even thought of before. But I'm not calling for people to lie back, just to not weaken one of the few explicit constitutional rights that remain and instead pursue other solutions.
polite request for equal treatment The government does not make polite requests.
But beyond that, there is no cut and dried separation between government, media, and big tech.
Yes, legally there IS a clear, "cut and dried" separation between government and private actors like media and technology companies, and that quite properly translates into differences in what they can and cannot do. But there do need to be safeguards against government engaging in "censorship by proxy" by pressuring private media to suppress views the government doesn't like.
BTW, I just saw the "Heads up" notice about editing messages here and related changes. It seems appropriate that I would first see it when posting on this particular topic.
“Censorship by tech companies is just as bad as censorship by the government.”
‘Tis not. Those tech companies didn’t even exist for most of human history, and people managed to find ways to communicate.
Now, if everyone will put away the hyberbole, maybe there’s a case that at the ISP or SaS level there should be some laws about access as a common carrier, but not at the social media site level.
The company is “taking away” the thing it created that didn’t exist before it took it away?
Or is this conservatives adopting “you didn’t build that”? I thought that kind of covetous thinking was anathema to conservatives.
Let me see if this new edit button works…
Yes
NO IT DOES NOT WORK.
Post a comment with two lines/paragraphs. It shows up fine.
Click EDIT. You see only the first line/paragraph. Everything else disappears.
It doesn’t work for me either. But I was tumescent to see the button itself
The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dogs.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
It worked for me.
Line 1
Line 2
Line 3
Yep, working now.
get it right the first time lol
I clicked Edit on my comment above, which consists of three paragraphs. All three showed up in the edit box. I didn't actually make any changes though, and closed the box by hitting Cancel.
"With narrow exceptions for speech that is not constitutionally protected, Facebook et al. are not allowed to favor tolerance over bigotry, peace over violence, or verifiably true historical or scientific claims over demonstrably false ones."
As if all of those categories are objective and non-controversial about what fits those definitions. We now have people putting forward that choosing one's sexual partners based on whether they have male or female genitals is bigotry, that riots that caused billions in damage and dozens of deaths "mostly peaceful", and labeling scepticism about scientific claims that turned out to be false as misinformation. The platforms are not equipped to perform those kind of editorial functions in any kind of evenhanded or even intelligent manner. They do not have the expertise and their employees do not have the disinterest. The platforms when starting up claimed to be more or less open forums, not the equivalent of a newspaper with an ideological viewpoint.
It is interesting that Section 230 is not brought up here, since the original intent of that law was to enable some moderation without requiring them to be heavy handed about it. Also, the provision allowed protected light moderation, it also restricted moderation to be in "good faith". Given the collusion between the platforms and elements of the government and the Democratic Party to suppress speech and press that goes against their interests, the opaqueness of what the rules are and arbitrary nature of the decisions of what gets banned, the handwringing about the loss of a right to"editorial discretion" is laughable from companies that have abused the trust of their users and content creators.
Tl;dr. Did Sullum mention all the shit Democrats are currently doing with moderation?
Also, commenters are now able to edit comments during the first 5 minutes after posting.
Who are you people and what have you done with the Reason staff???
Jesus Christ, Jacob, get a clue! The state is USING social media content moderation! We keep trying to tell you!
Jacob clearly doesn't have one.
He ridicules the idea that conservatives take it for granted that social media companies have an ideological agenda—one that is hostile to people on the right.
As if that's not one of those verifiably true historical or scientific claims.
"one that is hostile to people on the right."
And one that is rabidly pro-government.
The problem is two-fold:
EDIT button sucks -- DON'T USE IT.
That first line/paragraph was in my original comment. So was everything below this second edit. But the first edit showed only the first line/paragraph above. I had to hit the back arrow to recover the text box with the original comment.
First, government actors telling private companies what to censor and promote are not held accountable for this blatant government censorship.
Second, ordinary users of social media sites have no practical recourse when the tech companies violate their own terms of service. They advertise and promote themselves as universal platforms for universal discussions, encourage businesses to build up clientele using their platforms, then shut them down arbitrarily and capriciously, and the only possible theoretical recourse is civil suits costing a fortune, taking years, and with unpredictable outcomes.
So fuck the social media companies. Turn them into common carriers is about the most practical solution I have seen. This Texas law sure ain't perfect, it's probably not even constitutional, and it sure isn't my idea of liberty. But the systemic collusion of government, big tech, and the judicial system isn't working either and isn't any more moral or ethical.
Yeah, that's what I am seeing as well. Damn
"First, government actors telling private companies what to censor and promote are not held accountable for this blatant government censorship."
So... Example please of ANY private company that was actually PUNISHED for NOT LISTENING to Government Almighty nannies, while still in obedience to Section 230? The FIRST thing that Government Almighty nannies actually DO to threaten private (social media) companies is to TEAR DOWN Section 230, which gives us internet free speech! And so all the partisan idiots ("both sides") pile right on, DEMANDING that Section 230 be torn down! Imagining that the replacement to S-230 will allow them to pussy-grab the other side, and that other side will NEVER figure out just HOW does one pussy-grab right back! ... Power pigs will power pig! Free speech for me, but NOT for thee!!! Go figure; just HOW stupid and ignorant can power pigs GET, about some pretty simple, basic things? (PS, the bum under the bridge ALSO threatened my free speech... He said he'd hold his breath if I didn't obey, till he turned blue... SO FUCKING WHAT? There is NO serious problem with empty threats! Ignore them! It is ACTUALLY IMPOSED PUNISHMENTS that matter!)
Oh fuck off. How can any self-proclaimed libertarian look himself in the mirror and deny that government coercion isn't limited to firing squads?
Normal social interactions are "coercion" by this kind of daffy-nition! My wife is "coercing" me by frowning at my bad jokes!
WHO is the USA Government Almighty ACTUALLY PUNISHING for not moderating exactly as USA Government Almighty wishes?
So punishing your enemies is more important to you than constitutional "rule of law and not men", liberty, and property rights. This is how we get more and more authoritarianism, you know!
And for WHAT?!?! "They took down my post! Waaaaa!!!~"
Hey whining crybaby… I pay (PAY! With MY money! I OWN!) for my own web site at Go-Daddy. I say some VERY sarcastic and un-politically-correct, intolerant things about cults like Scientology there (and Government Almighty as well). I am QUITE sure that a LOT of “tolerant” liberal-type folks at Google etc. would NOT be happy with the types of things I wrote! Yet, if you do a search-string “Scienfoology”, Google will take you STRAIGHT to MY web site, top hit! #1!
https://www.google.com/search?q=scienfoology&nfpr=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPzZqf0dXsAhUCT6wKHez9DNwQvgUoAXoECDEQKg&biw=1920&bih=941
Your whining and crying is (just about ) UTTERLY without basis!
WHERE is your respect for property rights?! I learned to respect the property rights of others, before I was in the 1st grade! Didn’t your Momma raise you right?
And if your buddy the IRS auditor happens to drop a hint that changing your web site content would make the audit go a lot easier, what would you do?
If a Senator makes a lot of speeches and introduces a bill threatening to redefine your business model as a monopoly because you don't moderate your content fast enough, what are you going to do?
Fuck off, ignorant fake libertarian. No true libertarian can be that naive. I remember when you used to complain about government interference with lung flutes. What happened, can you get them now? Itch satisfied, so now you only complain about safe topics?
If someone threatens me I will have the BALLS to wait till they actually HARM me, and THEN I will fight back! This is pretty simple!
(Legal action BEFORE harm is actually done is OK by me when there are blatant, verifiable threats of violence against people or property.)
OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230
The day after tomorrow, you get a jury summons. You will be asked to rule in the following case: A poster posted the following to social media: “Government Almighty LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know!”
This attracted protests from liberals, who thought that they may have detected hints of sarcasm, which was hurtful, and invalidated the personhoods of a few Sensitive Souls. It ALSO attracted protests from conservatives, who were miffed that this was a PARTIAL truth only (thereby being at least partially a lie), with the REAL, full TRUTH AND ONLY THE TRUTH being, “Government Almighty of Der TrumpfenFuhrer ONLY, LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know! Thou shalt have NO Government Almighty without Der TrumpfenFuhrer, for Our TrumpfenFuhrer is a jealous Government Almighty!”
Ministry of Truth, and Ministry of Hurt Baby Feelings, officials were consulted. Now there are charges!
QUESTIONS FOR YOU THE JUROR:
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, true or false?
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, hurtful sarcasm or not?
Will you be utterly delighted to serve on this jury? Keep in mind that OJ Simpson got an 11-month criminal trial! And a 4-month civil trial!
On the first question - Government loves no one. Government
is incapable of love.
On the second - it cannot be a legal question whether it is sarcasm, hurtful or not.
What you say is true... For now!
What happens AFTER they tear down Section 230?
The law is whatever the law says! It was illegal in the USA, a while ago, to be, or to shelter, a runaway slave!
Well, I’m going to test this edit button thing again.
People are reporting difficulties, so maybe I’ll have difficulties, too.
Let’s find out…
No, it still works.
Let me try a second edit…
Still works.
Maybe I'm special?
Nope, it worked for me a few minutes ago. Maybe it was only glitchy for a while.
Problem... Crony Socialism..
So long as government has it's fingers on media through journalist grants, subsidies and *threats* it will be government ran media.
Obama: ‘Google, Facebook Would Not Exist’ Without Government Funding
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/obama-google-facebook-would-not-exist-without-government-funding
“They took down my comment, so let’s nationalize FacePooo, and shit all over private ownership and property rights.”
“They didn’t elect MY candidate, so let’s burn down democracy.”
“I want my toasted marshmallow NOW, and there’s NO fire to be had, so let’s burn down MomDad’s house NOW!”
Rotten spoiled BRATS, ALL of them!!! WHY is this so hard to see?
"They took down my post because Elizabeth Warren made veiled threats against them that they cannot allow information contradictory to the government's dishonest propaganda."
Some rando: “They took down my totally benign post about Covid but left up the post of the socialist saying he was going to run his car through a Republican Christmas parade.”
SQRLSY: “They shouldn’t be held liable for implicit endorsement of an attack on retarded MAGA sky worshippers! You’re a totalitarian!!!1!1!1”
Everyone (ALMOST everyone) censors those who they don't like. https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/29/as-predicted-parler-is-banning-users-it-doesnt-like/ ... Free speech for me, but not for thee!!! Those who expect LARGER Government Almighty to "fix" this for them, FAVORING THEIR SIDE, are fooling themselves! Preserve and protect Section 230!!!
The Right claims they want no moderation at all, the Left claims they want more moderation. Let's wait until Elon Musk takes over Twitter to test the Left's claim ("Noooo! That's not what we meant!") or ,conversely, let's wait until the spambots completely take over moderation-free social media ("Noooo! That's not what we meant!") to test the Right's claim.
It's not that he right is demanding NO moderation just moderation within the 1A.
Spambots are a problem not for what they say but because they drown out all other speech or are unwanted and unrelated commercial pitches of dubious legitimacy. And just as you have no right to shout down all counter positions or engage in fraud the pruning of spambots can at least be justified over explicit viewpoint discrimination of legal speech.
Testing Comment History
Please Ignore.
It didn't work, right?
The Government Can't Fix Social Media Moderation and Should Not Try
That's not even close to true. Not within a thousand miles of true. The government has been at the forefront of social media
censorshipmoderation... or are all those emails between the tech execs and the Biden administration (or sympathetic [fill in any administration for the last 50 years] officials a figment of my lying eyes?So who actually got PUNISHED for something that is expressly allowed by Section 230? Are they taking it to court? Do we need to somehow spend some more money to ENFORCE Section 230 better?
Well the thing is, the government IS pressuring social media to do something. And the government is being pressured by special interests from both the left and the right. So social media does do it. Stuff like refusing to host Parlor anymore. Or banning Trump for life (a 30 day sleep, sure, but ban for life?). And my friend a tenured economics professor is having all of his posts about inflation flagged with fact check fail stickers. WTF?
So government isn't actually imposing moderation rules, but they are strong arming social media companies to limit the speech the government does not like. And this sort of stuff happened before Biden took office. It's not necessarily coming from the president. Just hints of new congressional hearings is kind of bully pulpiting.
All too true!
What gets me "WTFrustrated" to no end, is that a prime threat being wielded here (by "both sides") is "do what we want you to do, or we'll take Section 230 down, so that we can GET YOU!"... THIS, from our asshole politicians... On both sides!!!
And then the peons will "pile on", in agreement, that... We need to kill Section 230!!! All while imagining that "I can pussy-grab my enemies, and my enemies will NEVER think of pussy-grabbing me right back", after we kill Section 230!!!
WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE that one-sided retaliation-free pussy-grabbing has EVER worked well, for long-term peace and prosperity? Look at history, and we can SEE that pussy-grabbing leads to MORE pussy-grabbing, going both ways! When will humans learn this simple lesson?
If the government hadn't been compelling "moderation", I would agree that they should stay out of fixing it. I don't see it ending well, but at least we should be told what's happening. The fact that censorship was happening at the request or "suggestion" of government employees makes it a completely different situation. Muh private companies doesn't apply when they are doing the Gov's bidding for them.
"If the government hadn’t been compelling “moderation”..."
And right here you are, commenting on a ZERO-moderation forum! Reason takes down (just about absolutely) NOTHING! WHERE is this COMPELLED moderation, exactly? If it exists, it sounds like a market opportunity for Reason.com! And for you! Start up your forum NOW! All of the "victims" of COMPELLED moderation will come flocking towards YOU!
(The bum under the bridge, even if he has a Government Almighty badge, threatening to hold his breath till he turns blue, doesn't count. ACTUAL IMPOSED PUNISHMENT counts.)
Years ago at a Reason event I got into a conversation about the lack of moderation here. Then Matt Welch joined in. Basically the consensus (but not me) was that the free form nature of the comment section was a good thing. But then again, this was before the hate and the Trumpista takeover. The same people who used to mock Eric Dondero for calling Sarah Palin the most libertarian person alive are now declaring that Trump was the most libertarian president ever (world's tallest midget, etc). Whatever.
The point is, the commentariat has jumped the shark and has become meaningless. Moderation of some sort is needed. Does NOT mean we ban users or remove their posts, but there are other ways to moderate.
And it's not just Reason. Most Reddit forums have similar problems. But others do not. And I think the difference is moderators. /r/libertarian has been taken over by the worst sort of alt-right wingers, and I don't mean the Mises Caucus. Some other libertarian leaning sites are under attack by the same people. It takes active moderation to stop it.
Some simple rules can help. Do not directly attack and insult another poster, for example. Do not engage in spam, for another. But there still needs to be human moderators, and that's expensive and takes effort.
It's beyond the point were a culture of respect and discussion can emerge, any hint of that gets slapped down hard by the yahoos.
He was objectively the most libertarian president since Calvin Coolidge. That’s a low bar when you’re up against people like Obama, Bush the lessser, FDR or Nixon, to be sure.
I’m not really surprised that you think moderation is needed, but then I didn’t even think it was needed in the great White Indian/Mary Stack flame wars, so maybe my pain tolerance is higher.
I’m not really surprised that you think moderation is needed, but then I didn’t even think it was needed in the great White Indian/Mary Stack flame wars, so maybe my pain tolerance is higher.
That was an instance where Section 230 “gentle moderation” was needed, because Mary made the threads unreadable with her copypasta and multiple socks. Recall that the same thing happened with Dumbfuck Hihnsano, until he went and whined to his attorney about it.
Oh, and the comment section here was infamous long before Brandy's timeline. Why do so many here who bitch about the supposed quality of commenters forget L'Affaire Woodchipper? Hell, most of the best commenters went over to Glibs specifically because Reason was constantly bitching about Trump.
I remember L’Affaire Woodchipper, fuck Preet.
It’s been a while since I’ve posted at glibs, the threading on mobile gets to a point where it’s damn near unreadable, but I generally enjoy their columns and the comments were usually top notch.
I don’t care how long ago a comment was made. I want the exact date and time. This is not a goddamn math class to subtract time from the current time.
I’m aware I can click “ago” to get the times. That’s an added and annoying step.
Page jumps around like a stupid script is broken.
The page jumping is really weird. I figure it means I've been reading FB too long (two minutes) and it's time to close it down and go elsewhere.
re: “While such neutrality is constitutionally mandatory for the government, imposing it on private actors violates the First Amendment right to exercise editorial discretion.”
That line gets to the crux of the whole debate. Are social media platforms like Facebook and Twitter exercising editorial discretion?
If they were exercising editorial discretion, they clearly have a right to continue doing so. But is that what they are doing in the first place? As a factual matter, that is at best open to debate. Most of their users and readers would say that they are not. Facebook exercises editorial discretion when it writes its own pages and posts but that is not at all what they are doing when they moderate content. They do not, for example, edit your posts for clarity or conciseness. They either allow the post through as is or reject it entirely based on automated criteria.
I think Oldham has the better argument – what they do is not really that much like what a newspaper does. What they do is a lot more like what a phone company does – they enable communications between their customers. And they block a fraction of the clearly spam/telemarketing/fraudulent messages.
Step two then is ‘if a phone company can be legislatively deemed to be a common carrier (and the precedents are clear that it can be), what legal rule prevents a legislature from making the same common-carrier determination about an internet equivalent?’
"...what legal rule prevents a legislature from making the same common-carrier determination about an internet equivalent?"
What legal rule prevents a legislature from nationalizing all food, clothes, and housing production in the USA? Or re-legalizing slavery for blacks, or concentration camps for Japanese-Americans?
Decency, humility, respect for freedom, self-ownership, and private property stand in the way of ALL of these things, but they're not legal rules! "There is no controlling legal authority above me", so I can do as I damned well please! So said every authoritarian and every totalitarian ever!
Relegalizing slavery would violate a Constitutional amendment. That is a legal rule that prevents a legislature from making that determination.
The Commerce Clause should prohibit the nationalization of production but that clause has been effectively gutted by decades of precedent. You're on the right track by saying that it's a decency and policy debate more than a legal rule to keep that from happening. But if you're going to follow that line of reasoning, follow it all the way. Why is it good policy for a telephone company to be deemed a common carrier (and most people do say that it is a good policy on net) but bad policy to do the same thing to a social media company?
If you're going to argue against all common carrier laws, then say that. But if you're going to argue against just some common carrier laws, then explain why your choice is better than Texas'.
"Why is it good policy for a telephone company to be deemed a common carrier (and most people do say that it is a good policy on net) but bad policy to do the same thing to a social media company?"
'1) Telephone wires (and radio bandwidth allocations for wi-fi for example) are limited commodities. Stringing 20 wires for 20 telephone companies is inefficient as all git-out! NONE of this applies to moderation of internet comments! We can have unlimited numbers of web sites with comments-posting capabilities!
'2) The telephone company doesn't post your comments for the public to see. If I post totally racist and hateful stuff to Reason.com, and Reason leaves my comments up (and doesn't add an editorial post to my comment saying that they disagree, either), then the public may possibly blame Reason.com for agreeing with my comment(s), and even, boycotting Reason Magazine, etc. NONE of which is true when I talk privately over the phone with my Aunt Mildred!
‘1) Telephone wires (and radio bandwidth allocations for wi-fi for example) are limited commodities. Stringing 20 wires for 20 telephone companies is inefficient as all git-out! NONE of this applies to moderation of internet comments! We can have unlimited numbers of web sites with comments-posting capabilities!
So the one WITH limits can be classed as a 'common' carrier, but the one WITHOUT limits shouldn't be?
2) The telephone company doesn’t post your comments for the public to see. If I post totally racist and hateful stuff to Reason.com, and Reason leaves my comments up (and doesn’t add an editorial post to my comment saying that they disagree, either), then the public may possibly blame Reason.com for agreeing with my comment(s), and even, boycotting Reason Magazine, etc. NONE of which is true when I talk privately over the phone with my Aunt Mildred!
The comments section at Reason does not work in the same fashion as social media. Reason's comment section is public. Social media accounts are only as public as the user makes them. Thus, the racist conversations you have with your Aunt Mildred on Facebook can be just as private as those on the phone--or the can be broadcast with a bullhorn depending on what YOU decide.
Nothing in the design of the platform forces you in any direction. It is strictly your choice.
"So the one WITH limits can be classed as a ‘common’ carrier, but the one WITHOUT limits shouldn’t be?"
That was what I was taught in economics in school (50,000 years ago, yes!). The legal-rational "public utility" regulation applies to water, sewer, power wires, radio bandwidth, roads, railroads, and so on, because building 12 or 17 or each, for economic competitors, makes NO sense, for the public good.
Your point about FacePooooo (etc.) does make sense... If we nibble away at Section 230 "as is", I sure do hope they nibble away ONLY at entities (like FacePooo) that allow you to keep your posts "for personally-privately approved users" only!!! You are correct, in saying (or implying) that in this case, w/o full public access, sane people will NOT confuse YOUR "posting stance" on FacePooo, with the stance of FacePoooo Inc.!!!
re: “So the one WITH limits can be classed as a ‘common’ carrier, but the one WITHOUT limits shouldn’t be?”
That is not the definition (or original justification) I learned for common carrier status. That is the justification offered for regulated utility/local monopoly status but that’s different. Common carrier status has its origins in mail and freight carriers – markets in which there was a LOT of competition even at the time. Markets that were functionally unlimited in capacity. Telephone lines were originally both utilities (for the economy of scale reasons you cite) and common carriers but the two sets of restrictions were different. Note that telephone companies’ common carrier status still exists even though landlines are (nearly) dead and there are many competing telephone companies.
Posting comments for the public to see is also not determinative to the common carrier status. In addition to Azaroth’s comment, there’s the fact that courts have repeatedly said that a forum host cannot generally be held accountable for everything the speakers say. (This is especially true when the forum host is the government itself. See, for example, the recent SCOTUS cases about vanity plate restrictions.) However, to the point that the public at large might mis-interpret the speaker’s words as being endorsed by the forum host, the entire point of common carrier status is to eliminate that confusion. You can’t accuse the phone company of supporting the KKK merely for providing service because the common carrier law says they can’t deny service on that basis.
In other words, if all Facebook wants is to be sure that they won’t get blamed for what their users are saying, Facebook should want common carrier status.
And the whole point of 230 was to distinguish the host’s from the user’s speech without going down the common carrier route.
As I wrote earlier... "You are correct, in saying (or implying) that in this case, w/o full public access, sane people will NOT confuse YOUR “posting stance” on FacePooo, with the stance of FacePoooo Inc.!!!"
But not everyone is sane! FacePooo in this case may (sanely) fear the insanity of those who DO hold FacePooo responsible for the posts of their users! And so who is best situated to make decisions here? The owner, FacePooo! If FacePooo goes to some stupid extreme (as they are doing; Zuckerberg is losing billions of dollars; https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/03/mark-zuckerbergs-net-worth-fell-30-billion-as-meta-shares-tank.html#:~:text=Zuckerberg's%20%2429.8%20billion%20loss%20is,worth%20last%20week%2C%20Bloomberg%20reports. ) then the free market will fix it faster and better than Government Almighty will! I for one do NOT trust Government Almighty to replace Section 230 with a SENSIBLE (and bribes-and-favors-proofed) system to determine who is, and who is not, a common carrier. In a fair, impartial manner, that is.
That line gets to the crux of the whole debate. Are social media platforms like Facebook and Twitter exercising editorial discretion?
No.
They are censoring private communications between private individuals.
The format sold to each user is the ability to communicate with a circle of chosen people.
To see content, each person must choose to follow --and in many cases be accepted AS a follower of another.
Facebook provides only the platform, none of the content. As does Twitter. And Youtube, and Instagram and all the rest.
The platforms have every right to edit their own content and nothing else that is not directly illegal.
I don’t understand why this idea is so hard to grasp.
"They are censoring private communications between private individuals."
Sounds like a HUGE opportunity for a competitor to step in who does NOT do that! But, um... They would need some PROTECTION in order to do so! Protection, as in, Section 230! Do YOU really, actually trust Government Almighty to micro-manage all of this (replace S-230), in a fair, unbiased manner? Is Government Almighty going to willfully replace itself with, what, God and the Angels?
Several competitors have tried. But then Amazon and others block their web hosting, Google and Apple block their app from their stores, etc. Essentially the tech giants collude to maintain their monopolies.
“And they block a fraction of the clearly spam/telemarketing/fraudulent messages.”
That is exercising editorial discretion. The whole argument is what percentage of posts they block or tag is a red herring. Why does the amount matter?
>>That means platforms are obliged to treat all posts equally, no matter how objectionable their content
gasp! objectionable is objective. censors natural next step.
Declaring something unconstitutional isn’t an argument.
If the First Amendment provides the freedom to discriminate, then anyone can discriminate against anyone, for any reason, by making the discrimination into part of a performance. Stream a video of your business' front door, then exclude whomever you want from your "video production". Claim it’s First Amendment protected because the government can’t force you to make videos with government content.
That’s what these social media companies are doing. If they get away with it, then everyone else should too.
Then they don’t deserve protection from the editorialized content that they produce! Simple as that. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. They can’t have a 1st based editorial protection on what they allow or not, AND protection from civil and legal responsibility for it at the same time.
Personally I understand the need for 230 protections in all it entails, but i’m not going to sit back while major public squares are censored against majority views, in the name of one sides extreme ideological and political opinions.
And this is all ignoring the fact that the government has been directly dictating these "private" choices for a long time now. And as an actor of the government, are they not bound by the protections of the 1st?
I agree, except that when Social Media companies become arms of the government I believe that they lose their right to first amendment protections. They are colluding with government to suppress and stifle free speech. If they were doing it on their own then I would fight to the death to run their companies as they see fit. But when they are doing it specifically at the behest of government agencies and individuals then they must be treated like any other government agency.
So then judge Southwick is essentially admitting that social media platform is a publisher, just like a newspaper. Which means they shouldn't get the special protection under Section 230.
"verifiably true historical or scientific claims over demonstrably false ones"
Right. Let's just leave it all to the "fact" checkers of the Washington Post . . .