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First Amendment

ACLU Abandons First Amendment in Colorado Gay Wedding Web-Hosting Case

How do you justify government speech mandates? Apparently, you deliberately pretend that businesses have no right to control the messages they choose to present.

Scott Shackford | 8.22.2022 2:25 PM

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Online album featuring gay wedding | Illustration: Lex Villena; Pressureua, Photo: Akesin / Dreamstime.com
(Illustration: Lex Villena; Pressureua, Photo: Akesin / Dreamstime.com)

Would you believe the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and Republican Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis have something in common? They both believe that the state should be able to force web companies to host content that these platforms disagree with or find morally objectionable in some fashion.

If that sounds remarkable, check out the amicus brief that the ACLU submitted Friday defending the authority of the state of Colorado to make a small web company host pictures of gay weddings against the will of the company's owner. Note how similar it is to Florida's attempts to force web companies to carry campaign messages from political candidates against the platforms' will.

Lorie Smith, owner of web design firm 303 Creative, is challenging Colorado's Anti-Discrimination Act, part of which requires businesses in the state to accept customers regardless of race, sex, sexual orientation, and many other categories. Smith has moral objections to the legal recognition of same-sex marriage. She says does not intend to discriminate against any LGBT customers, but she also believes that forcing her to post images of gay weddings on her site is mandating that she carry expressive speech and violates her First Amendment rights.

The Supreme Court agreed in February to hear 303 Creative LLC. v. Elenis later this year. The question at hand is whether a public accommodation law can compel an artist to speak or remain silent without violating the First Amendment.

The brief by the ACLU rejects the central question and instead attempts to reframe the entire argument as whether "an artist who has chosen to open to the business to the public at large" can be prohibited by a public accommodations law from "discriminating against customers on the basis of a protected characteristic." From the very start, we hit a problem that is consistent throughout this brief. The ACLU repeatedly treats refusing to host a particular image or message (a gay wedding) as discrimination against an individual or couple (a gay person or couple). This is obviously not the same thing, and it strikes at the heart of the flaws of the ACLU's argument.

Then, the ACLU argues that because 303 Creative is a business that sells services to the public, it must offer those goods in a nondiscriminatory manner according to Colorado law. Again, the ACLU deliberate blends the message and the client: "So, too, here, 303 Creative need not offer any particular website service to the public, but once it chooses to sell wedding-website design services to the public at large, it cannot selectively decline to sell those same services to same-sex couples."

Smith's point is that she's not refusing to sell all services to same-sex couples. She's refusing to host wedding pictures of same-sex couples because she holds religious objections to gay marriages and, therefore, does not want her company to be forced to be a vehicle for expressing this celebration.

The ACLU would have us see speech discrimination and customer discrimination as the same thing. But if 303 Creative refused a customer's request to host a bunch of images of an ISIS terrorist attack, is that discrimination against the customer's religion if the customer is also Muslim? Clearly, it's not. She's not turning away the customer because he or she is Muslim. She's refusing to host images she finds objectionable. In this exaggerated example, it's very easy to recognize the imposition on free speech and the violation of the business' First Amendment rights.

Similarly, it was fairly easy to see that Florida's attempt to mandate that Facebook carry campaign statements by anybody who runs for certain offices in the state would force the tech giant to potentially carry some content it would find truly offensive and display it in front of other customers who probably didn't want to see it. And so it shouldn't have come as a surprise that federal judges determined that Florida did not have the authority to make such demands of these businesses and, by attempting to do so, violated their First Amendment rights.

In this case, the ACLU is doing everything in its power to encourage the Court to reject any consideration of Smith's and 303 Creative's First Amendment rights, even going so far as attempting to reframe the central question to make it appear as though these rights are not relevant to the case. The ACLU would have us believe this is just a neutral application of an anti-discrimination law and that creating exceptions for businesses that involve creative expressions or customized works is "unworkable." This is clearly untrue. In 2019, Kentucky's Supreme Court determined that a T-shirt printer couldn't be forced to print pro-gay messages on his products in violation of his religious beliefs. The court was easily able to determine the difference between discriminating against a customer vs. rejecting a message. It is not confusing at all!

One of the more depressing inclusions in this ACLU amicus brief is its use of a Supreme Court case from 1968, United States v. O'Brien, to attempt to bolster its argument that the state of Colorado has the power to regulate speech in this way. In that case, David Paul O'Brien was convicted of violating federal law by publicly burning his draft card in protest of the Vietnam War. The Supreme Court determined that the prohibition against burning draft cards didn't violate the First Amendment because the federal government had a compelling interest in maintaining the draft and the rule was narrowly tailored to achieve that goal.

O'Brien was represented in this case by Marvin M. Karpatkin, who after this case would become an ACLU attorney and join its board of directors. He died in 1975. There's now a fellowship program at the ACLU named after Karpatkin.

In this brief, the ACLU essentially throws Karpatkin's arguments in the trash bin all in favor of supporting the power of Colorado to force a web company to carry gay wedding photos. Once, lawyers connected to the ACLU fought for the right to burn draft cards. Today's ACLU lawyers say, "No one disputed that O'Brien's burning of a draft card to protest the Vietnam War was expressive. But because the government's interest in prohibiting destruction of draft cards was unrelated to what any particular act of destruction communicated, intermediate scrutiny applied. And the result would have been precisely the same had O'Brien burned his draft card as performance art rather than political protest," and apparently believe that this is a good and defensible outcome.

How far they've fallen. Take a look at this paragraph:

Any incidental burden these laws impose on public accommodations that sell expressive goods and services is no greater than necessary to vindicate the government's anti-discrimination interest. Where the goal is to end discrimination in the public marketplace, an exemption for all businesses that might be deemed "expressive" (theaters, bookstores, architecture and law firms, hairdressers, gardeners, florists, caterers, and the like) would defeat the law's very purpose.

This would seem to argue that Colorado could mandate bookstores and theaters to carry books and movies that contain content that the business owners find objectionable. I'll do the ACLU a favor here and point out that's not what they mean. It has again confused messages with customers. They are attempting to argue that businesses that produce "expressive" works can't turn away customers because they fall under protected characteristics, which is true. But, yet again, they're deliberately confusing "serving a customer" with "printing and distributing the customer's message."

The ACLU's brief ends by listing a litany of wedding-related customizable products, including custom M&Ms, and wondering if this means that all of these businesses could refuse to serve same-sex couples. Do they want to? It's worth noting here that most businesses don't want to refuse service to them. This is not an actual crisis for gay couples. The only people who are potentially harmed here are those who get punished by the state.

If we're going to push absurd hypotheticals here, let me conclude with some of my own. Could 303 Creative be forced by Colorado law to host pictures of a gay wedding where a Bible is burned as part of the ceremony? What about a Koran? What about an American flag? Or a Russian flag? Would the ACLU defend Colorado's right to force 303 Creative to host images of a gay couple burning down ACLU headquarters at their wedding ceremony?

This is an embarrassingly bad brief by the ACLU, turning its back on decades of protecting citizens against authoritarian demands on citizen speech. They even threw one of their own lawyers under the bus in the process.

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NEXT: Number of American Mass Murders Relatively Steady Since 2006

Scott Shackford is a policy research editor at Reason Foundation.

First AmendmentFree SpeechACLUReligion and the LawDiscriminationGay MarriageLGBTColoradoSupreme CourtInternet
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  1. Don't look at me!   3 years ago

    Gays are protected.

    1. Brandybuck   3 years ago

      Just like Pandas.

      1. SQRLSY One   3 years ago

        What if you are a gay panda... But living in an area where gay pandas did NOT evolve, and you are an ALIEN INVADING species?!??!

        1. Eeyore   3 years ago

          You trick the panda into having straight sex, duh. How you do that I'm not sure. Can think of a few things to try.

          1. SQRLSY One   3 years ago

            The intersectionality is STRONG with this one!!!

            (Eeyore will go far, if ONLY he can raise his long-assed ears up MUCH higher up, buck UP, and cheer up, Buckeroo... And GO with the Farce! Oh, and... Panda to the masses of the asses! There is NO butter way, other than to butter up the masses of the asses! Else your ass is grass, and the asses are the lawnmowers! Gas, grass, or ass, no-one rides for free!)

            Quiz time: If all of the above is true, and you had two asses, and three bundles of grasses, but each ass is hungry for at least 1.5 bundles of grasses, and you had an expanse of grass of 3.5 kilometres to cross, with your gas-powered automobile, which car can carry only 1 ass and 1 bundle of grass, at a time, while each ass eats 0.5 bundles of grass per kilometre passed, but can pass gas to be burned by your car, at the energy-available rate of 0.0001 K-calories of gas per parsec traveled, for 10% of the propulsive needs of your car, then...

            ...Would you vote for an ass, for POTUS? Or only in a dire emergency, to save your ass?

            1. Eva56John12   3 years ago

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              1. Rob Misek   3 years ago

                Free speech is an inalienable right.

                That means it can’t be given, sold or taken away.

                It further means that if anyone invites the public to speak on their property they don’t get to censor what is considered legal activity.

                If you don’t like this, pack up and move to a place that doesn’t guarantee the inalienable right to free speech.

            2. Eeyore   3 years ago

              Thank you for your insights.

          2. Saint Sebastian   3 years ago

            There have been many attempts to encourage panda sex over the years, and generally seem to be unsuccessful. China has entire institutes dedicated to the subject. Guess the pandas just aren't interested.

            1. SQRLSY One   3 years ago

              They need to try adding breast implants to the females!!! Pole dancing, high heels, come-hither looks, makeup, beehive hairdos, glitter... Try EVERYTHING!!!

            2. MK Ultra   3 years ago

              The zoo in DC has had a pretty good record in panda procreation in recent years.

  2. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   3 years ago

    Abandoning the first amendment? It's all the rage with the cool kids these days. Sam Harris is getting ripped for abandoning the First Amendment too, and due process... and the truth in general...

    1. Sometimes a Great Notion   3 years ago

      Well when one doesn't believe in free will, is it really Sam Harris' opinion that the Post's Hunter story was rightfully suppressed or did words just come out of his mouth based on a preprogrammed responses?

      1. Agammamon   3 years ago

        Doesn't matter.

        If you provide sufficient negative stimulus, the learning box will change it's behavior just the same.

        1. WilliamSanon   3 years ago

          I just worked part-time from my apartment for 5 weeks, but I made $30,030. I lost my former business and was soon worn out. Thank goodness, I found this employment online and I was able to start working from home right away. (res-07) This top career is achievable by everyone, and it will improve their online revenue by using this article:>> https://incomebuzz7.blogspot.com/

    2. JohnTheRevelator   3 years ago

      Exactly. It's all a popularity contest. I argue this point with people who take the ACLU's position, and they basically hand-wave the whole notion of compelled speech and go for "those people are icky so they should have to do what we want."

    3. Finrod   3 years ago

      ACLU is now treating the rest of the Bill of Rights the same way they treat the Second and the Tenth.

  3. OpenBordersLiberal-tarian   3 years ago

    The ACLU is a wonderful organization. When I'm not buying yachts and mansions with my Biden boom earnings, I send them a fat check every month. You Peanuts just don't like the ACLU because you're not as libertarian as I am.

    #TemporarilyFillingInForButtplug

    1. BigT   3 years ago

      OBL, you genius. Of course we love the ACLU. I mean LIBERTY is right there in the name! How can you miss?? Not to mention AMERICAN, and UNION. Always buy the UNION label!

      1. Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf   3 years ago

        Ah .... no. Liberties, plural, is in the name. That means they get to pick and choose, not you. Definitely not all.

  4. A Thinking Mind   3 years ago

    If you're using a camera and you're not using to make gay porn, you're a bigot.

    1. Vernon Depner   3 years ago

      I suspect the first Gay porn was made within minutes after the first camera hit the stores.

  5. Brandybuck   3 years ago

    So she's not refusing to do gay wedding photos, she's just refusing to advertise her site using gay wedding photos.

    Sorry, I don't see the problem.

    1. Don't look at me!   3 years ago

      You monster!

    2. MatthewSlyfield   3 years ago

      In this case, she doesn't do wedding photos, she does websites for weddings.

      1. mad.casual   3 years ago

        A-HA! So, just like the Memories Pizza refusing to cater a gay wedding because they don't cater, she is refusing to do gay wedding photos!

        1. Pear Satirical   3 years ago

          Prosecutor: "Your honor, the defendant has refused to bake a gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, gender queer, 2 spirit, and/or a non-binary cake!"

          Judge: "Your response?"

          Defendant: "Um, I'm an electrician."

          Judge: "Guilty, death penalty!"

    3. Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf   3 years ago

      Yeah, no, try RTFA next time.

  6. A Thinking Mind   3 years ago

    And so it shouldn't have come as a surprise that federal judges determined that Florida did not have the authority to make such demands of these businesses and, by attempting to do so, violated their First Amendment rights.

    Guess what organization filed an amicus brief to challenge that Florida law? So the ACLU think you can't force people to host speech they dislike, but you can force them to share pictures they have moral qualms with.

  7. Foo_dd   3 years ago

    i think the problem here, like has become common, is that all the arguments come from extremists, and reality gets ignore.

    no, you can't refuse to do business at all with people just because they are gay.....

    BUT.... any business can refuse specific speech or material they object to... especially on a platform they own.

    they are not refusing to make a cake, they are refusing to put a same sex topper on it..... they are objecting to specific content that is not consistent with what they accept from other customers.)

    1. mad.casual   3 years ago

      I think the problem here is trolling extremists are baiting common businesses in order to distort or get others to ignore reality. Including yours.

      The cake shop specifically offered them a cake off the shelf. The pizza place didn't say they wouldn't cater a gay wedding, they said they don't cater. The Lake Park Community School District didn't refuse to accept a trans student. They didn't even refuse to accommodate their special need. They refused provide the student special accommodations at the direct cost to other students standard accommodations.

      Half the problem is people painting it as "Extremists on both sides." when, overtly, the extremists on one side are specifically generating situations to make the mundane seem extreme and then dismiss the normies content with individual rights and the status quo with cries of 'Phobia panic!'.

      1. Foo_dd   3 years ago

        and here is why the problem continues to perpetuate.... people who see someone say both extremes are wrong, and proceed to inject motives and statements not in evidence to pretend the person saying it is just the "other" extreme, and their extreme position is justified. as if not agreeing with unadulterated bigotry and discrimination in every single case is somehow an endorsement of every extreme act of flagrant harassment in the other direction.

        because, i guess saying they have to treat all customers equally while still maintaining veto power for any special requests is somehow saying i think a pizza place that does not do catering should be forced to cater a gay wedding..... somehow...

        1. mad.casual   3 years ago

          as if not agreeing with unadulterated bigotry and discrimination in every single case is somehow an endorsement of every extreme act of flagrant harassment in the other direction.

          I gave specific examples. Your leap to 'every single case' is an extreme leap. Maintaining veto power for special requests and treating all customers equally is an extreme position. Conflating "can't" with "won't" in defense of a false 'veto' narrative is an extreme position. If you can't provide a service, you aren't exercising a veto. If you're a compulsive liar, you aren't exercising a veto power over the truth, you're just lying.

          1. Foo_dd   3 years ago

            you gave specific examples i in no way advocated for..... and i SPECIFICALLY called out those SPECIFIC examples as hot garbage....

            and now you are resorting to a jumbled mess of garbage logic to try and maintain the delusion that i am. if you think treating people equally is an "extreme" position, you might be a bigot.

            1. mad.casual   3 years ago

              and i SPECIFICALLY called out those SPECIFIC examples as hot garbage....

              Right. You falsely called them out as garbage because of extremists on both sides when, in fact, one side was plainly conducting business as usual, or trying to, and activists on the other side deliberately stirred shit up in the extreme, accepting no compromises.

              Paraphrasing: "in a time of universal deceit, plainly telling the truth is a extremist act". Telling the truth and conducting business as usual is only an extremist act to sociopaths.

              1. Foo_dd   3 years ago

                sorry..... you are just too stupid to get it..... you have been simmering in the hate and propaganda too long to think rationally anymore..

                might i suggest you go and find someone who is actually making the arguments you are trying to claim i am and yell at them instead....

    2. n00bdragon   3 years ago

      no, you can't refuse to do business at all with people just because they are gay.....

      Hot Take: You should be able to refuse to do business with people just because they are gay (or you don't like their face, or any reason). The CRA makes a joke out of the right to free association. When you don't give people the option to avoid those they find objectionable, don't be surprised when some truly objectionable people decide, without your input, that you should not be able to avoid them.

      1. retiredfire   3 years ago

        THIS!
        The entire concept of a "protected characteristic" is an abomination.
        It is robbing Americans of the freedom that is supposed to be the bedrock of our governance.
        Once the CRA strayed into the area of compelling individuals and private businesses to conduct themselves in a particular manner, based on "protected characteristics" it went beyond the bounds of what the Constitution allowed for government.

      2. mad.casual   3 years ago

        The CRA makes a joke out of the right to free association.

        Free association *and* presumption of innocence. Refusing service to one, maybe two gay people is OK, refusing service to several is not. Even if you're a lesbian POC masseuse empirically refusing to massage people with monkyepox or an Asian hygienist refusing to wax some lady's scrotum.

      3. Foo_dd   3 years ago

        i know people who love to hate really hate the CRA.... but i never said anything about the CRA.

        when you open a PUBLIC storefront, you are choosing to associate with the PUBLIC. the CRA and public accommodation laws only ever came to be because of how many people are too stupid to understand that gay/brown/tall/short/female people are part of the PUBLIC. you don't want to serve the general public? fine..... don't open a public fucking store.

        1. mad.casual   3 years ago

          you don't want to serve the general public? fine..... don't open a public fucking store.

          You dropped your 'veto power' mask you lying sociopath.

          1. Foo_dd   3 years ago

            i said that the store owner has veto power for nonstandard requests, but they should otherwise treat all customers equally...... (as in, you can't ban members of the general public just because bigotry is fun, but you can refuse to make a cake shaped like dueling penises.)

            i dropped nothing, shit for brains. if you think so, you are even dumber than i thought. (which..... is pretty dumb to begin with.)

  8. SQRLSY One   3 years ago

    "Team R": Government Almighty must BLESS it, first, from an anti-abortion, pro-life, anti-woke, pro-Blue-Lives-Matter, anti-Black-lives-matter, perspective, before you can say it."

    "Team D": "Government Almighty must BLESS it, first, from a pro-choice, pro-abortion-rights, anti-womb-enslavement, anti-fascist, pro-Black-Lives-Matter, anti-Blue-lives-matter, perspective, before you can say it."

    WTF choice is left, other than to vote libertarian? And tell ALL of the fascists to FUCK OFF, no matter WHICH way that their swastikas may twirl?

  9. Mickey Rat   3 years ago

    Television and radio stations have been legally compelled to accommodate political advertisements from all candidates for decades. Individual production studios have not. I believe Shackford is making a category error that 303 Creative and an internet platform to make this "both sides" argument.

    1. Chip D   3 years ago

      That is just because they have a federal government license. The airwaves are controlled by the government.

  10. BigT   3 years ago

    GOOD NEWS.

    Fauci to quit in December!

    It couldn't happen soon enough!

    https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-stepping-down-next-chapter-152236446.html

    1. Fats of Fury   3 years ago

      Is he retiring to his ranch in Paraguay?

      1. Don't look at me!   3 years ago

        We should be reopening San Quentin for him.

        1. Vernon Depner   3 years ago

          Plum Island would be more appropriate.

          1. Rat on a train (FR)   3 years ago

            Fort Jefferson

  11. Gaear Grimsrud   3 years ago

    The whole thing is obviously the fault of Disantis and can ultimately be linked to Trump. We never had these problems when Obama was in the white house. We were all too busy basking in hope and change.

    1. Nardz   3 years ago

      Well yea, it takes a lot of basking to stop the seas from rising. Doesn't leave much time for anything else.

    2. retiredfire   3 years ago

      The 3.5 million voters, who abandoned him between '08 and '12 weren't basking in any "hope and change".
      And that was the context of an increase in the overall population of roughly 9 million, over the same time period.

  12. BigT   3 years ago

    Would the ACLU defend Colorado's right to force 303 Creative to host images of a gay couple burning down ACLU headquarters at their wedding ceremony?

    They need a GOFUNDME page. They'll rake in the cash!

    1. Finrod   3 years ago

      I read "burning down ACLU headquarters" and got all excited until I realized it was just a hypothetical.

  13. swillfredo pareto   3 years ago

    The brief by the ACLU...attempts to reframe the entire argument as whether "an artist who has chosen to open to the business to the public at large" can be prohibited by a public accommodations law from "discriminating against customers on the basis of a protected characteristic."

    Let's give the ACLU a break here Can we really expect an organization devoted to "civil rights", whatever the fuck those are, to understand an issue as complex as the natural right of freedom of association? If we can't use armed agents of the state to bully individuals then why even have a state?

  14. Gozer the Gozarian   3 years ago

    ACLU = Another Crappy Leftist Ulcer

  15. sarcasmic   3 years ago

    Thop it! I'm totally serious!

    1. Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf   3 years ago

      But not therious.

  16. Agammamon   3 years ago

    The ACLU is already on record as saying they will not defend the civil rights of people they feel 'are on the wrong side of history'.

    This is just the next *small* step.

    1. defaultdotxbe   3 years ago

      A logical step though. To say you defend civil rights, but not for people you disagree with, is a decidedly un-principled position to take, requiring a bit of mental gymnastics to maintain. Much easier to begin moving toward "people 'on the wrong side of history' don't have civil rights" and be done with it.

      1. Chip D   3 years ago

        let's just take it to the next step.... "people on the wrong side of me don't have rights"

        1. Earth-based Human Skeptic   3 years ago

          And then, "people on the wrong side of me are not really people, and should be eliminated"

          1. Finrod   3 years ago

            And then begins loading "those types" into boxcars.

            1. Ed Grinberg   3 years ago

              Those boxcars will be decorated with decals of "ACLU" and "Tolerance!" and "Say no to hatred!" and lots of smiley-faces.

    2. JFree   3 years ago

      It's sad to watch a courageous defender of unpopular principles turn into a bog standard political advocacy group.

  17. Spiritus Mundi   3 years ago

    Bake the damn webpage!

  18. NOYB2   3 years ago

    Would you believe the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and Republican Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis have something in common? They both believe that the state should be able to force web companies to host content that these platforms disagree with or find morally objectionable in some fashion.

    Would you believe that the state should be able to force phone companies to carry voice messages that they find morally objectionable?

    Would you believe that the state should be able to force landlords to rent to people they find morally objectionable?

    Would you believe that the state should be able to force taxpayers to subsidize telecommunications infrastructure, R&D, and the provision of capital investments to companies taxpayers find morally objectionable?

    Welcome to living in a progressive social welfare state. Your outrage over deviations from libertarianism seems rather selective.

    I wonder why that is.

    1. JohnTheRevelator   3 years ago

      Don't worry, Shackford truly is equally outraged when Florida bans schools from teaching sexualized ideas about gender to 3rd graders. That's a much better "why not this?" because the schools are publicly funded, not private entities with a natural right to associate (or not) with whom they please.

  19. Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf   3 years ago

    This is the Shackford who I used to respect before he decided that child genetical mutilation was ok, in spite of female genetical mutilation being verboten.

    More liberty-oriented articles, please, instead of child abuse.

    1. Nardz   3 years ago

      LOL

      Such little self respect.

  20. JohnTheRevelator   3 years ago

    The ACLU abandoned the First Amendment in general quite awhile ago, in favor of hothouse leftist politics and those sweet, sweet left billionaire donations. Luckily, for those of us who want a non-partisan free speech advocacy group to donate to, FIRE (thefire.org) has stepped into the breech.

    1. The Margrave of Azilia   3 years ago

      ...and defends the right to advertise abortions.

      1. JohnTheRevelator   3 years ago

        Not sure which group that's directed at, but yes abortion providers have a First Amendment right to advertise their services. I may dislike their services, but they have a right to speak.

        And a given seller of ad space has the right to refuse their business, unless that seller substantially controls all the ad space in a market--which is the argument for imposing a 1A burden on Twitter and Facebook. Sure there are alternative platforms, but most people aren't on them. Twitter has an effective natural monopoly. If they ban you, there's no going down the street to the next vendor like you could if you were buying a cake for your gay wedding (or Nazi-themed wedding, etc)

        1. The Margrave of Azilia   3 years ago

          "I may dislike their services"

          Objecting to a moral wrong, whose legal status under the Fourteenth Amendment (due process/equal protection) is at best highly dubious, is not really what I'd call "dislike," unless not wanting to swallow arsenic amounts to "mild distaste."

          1. BYODB   3 years ago

            For the record, I think abortion is pretty horrific but I also happen to recognize that rights can actually can be in conflict. The fetus has a right to life, and the woman has a right to their own body. There are few clearer instances of conflicting natural rights than this.

            Unless you're willing to lock up every pregnant woman in a padded room to ensure the perfect conditions for a healthy pregnancy, I'd suggest you're a reactionary that doesn't really think about this kind of thing.

            I also wonder if you're the kind of person that thinks if a woman smokes while pregnant she should be tried for attempted murder.

            Something tells me you are.

            1. Azathoth!!   3 years ago

              >i?The fetus has a right to life, and the woman has a right to their own body.

              And if a woman and a partner force a fetus into her body, against it's will, by deliberately engaging in an act whose sole purpose is to force a fetus into her body, she does not then acquire the right to expel the person she has forced into being dependent on her.

              There is no conflict of rights because, by her actions, the woman has moved from the exercise of rights to the area of personal responsibility.

            2. The Margrave of Azilia   3 years ago

              Recall the pre-1973 days when pregnant women were all shackled to the wall until they gave birth?

  21. Fats of Fury   3 years ago

    So what is new here? The ACLU joined in trying to force the BSA to accepts gay scouts. When they lost that case they started suing states and cities to sever connections to the BSA. Win or lose the ACLU hands their legal bills over to the US taxpayers.

  22. Joe Friday   3 years ago

    Not the only time DeSantis has tried to take away 1st amendment rights as governor:

    1. The law covered in this article.
    2. Law now on hold by a federal judge where he tried to dictate allowable political speech by private companies.
    3. Punished Disney with stupid and not thought out legislation because their CEO criticized the legislation in #2.
    4. Removed twice elected DA for declaring his intent to not criminalize abortions or transgender surgery, though no cases have been brought before him on these issues, Florida's abortion law is on hold while being challenged as violating Florida's constitutional right to privacy, and while there is no Florida law about transgender surgery.

    If you like leaders who get in your stuff all the time and try to limit what you can say, he's your guy.

    1. Enemy of the State   3 years ago

      #4 - when you as a DA publicly announce you will not uphold the valid laws of the state that employs you that you personally disagree with, you have effectively resigned...

      1. Joe Friday   3 years ago

        Doofus, they are not valid laws of the state. Can't read?

        1. Finrod   3 years ago

          If a Republican DA said he wouldn't uphold environmental laws, you'd whine like a stuck pig.

          1. Joe Friday   3 years ago

            Sure, but I wouldn't expect the governor to remove them from office. That right is intended for malfeasance and or extreme misbehavior by office holders, not for voicing ambiguous statements about hypothetical situations. The guy was twice elected and if and when he actually did refuse to prosecute a case he can be voted out by citizens, a fate DeSantis deserves for his many autocratic and dictatorial impositions of his will on local governments and private businesses. Who do Floridians ask to remove him?

    2. thoughtcrime inc.   3 years ago

      So tech companies lose the right to control what political ads I see, my employer loses the right to compel my attendance at "white privilege" training, and Soros-funded law-nullifying DAs lose their offices?

      Is there a part here where DeSantis gets in MY stuff specifically, or am I supposed to feel sorry for these supposed victims?

      1. Joe Friday   3 years ago

        Tech companies have that right as DeSantis's law is a violation of the constitution. Quit if you don't like your employer's training classes. The DA did not refuse to try any real case and there is no real law in question.

        1. thoughtcrime inc.   3 years ago

          Sounds like a no to DeSantis limiting what *I* can say.

          >Quit if you don't like your employer's training classes.

          Or I could elect DeSantis, skip the corporate racism, keep my job, and be happy (in violation of my HR department's alleged constitutional rights to the contrary).

          1. SQRLSY One   3 years ago

            Or I could elect someone to take ALL of your shit, give it to MEEEE, and call it a GREAT day! 'Cause Government Almighty might-makes-right, so long as you can "find" some votes to back it up!

          2. Joe Friday   3 years ago

            Sure, but he'll yank the other people you helped elect from office.

  23. Chip D   3 years ago

    The ACLU has been on a downward track for a bit. It is funny how progressives claim that private tech companies should be allowed to decide that they don't want to host messages from anyone who does not agree with their world view. Why should a small web hosting service have different rules? Because the rules are not the point...rules mean nothing. Each side just reflexively does whatever they think they have to do to win. They are so convinced they are right and nothing else matters.

  24. Enemy of the State   3 years ago

    The ACLU lost all credibility during the two years of covidmania when it chose to focus on defending the rights of thousands of prisoners to be protected from covid and ignored the trampled liberties of 300M citizens under state laws arbitrarily restricting their freedoms of association and religious expression...

  25. IceTrey   3 years ago

    Facebook is protected by 230 though so does that make a difference?

  26. mpercy   3 years ago

    Just learn to shut up, sit down, OBEY, and bake the fucking cake.

  27. Joe Friday   3 years ago

    The ACLU will not likely be the next president of the US, while DeSantis has a shot. If you want an enemy of the 1st amendment who's not shy about trying to take it away from citizens and punish others who say stuff he doesn't like, DeSantis is your guy.

  28. mpercy   3 years ago

    As repulsive as they are, I'm kinda rooting for Westboro Baptist Church to hunt down some gay-owned establishments and sue them when they refuse to provide services based on their religious messages.

    I also kinda want someone to go into a Muslim bakery and demand that they decorate a cake with the image of Muhammed so that they can sue when they refuse.

  29. John Rohan   3 years ago

    This is the same specious argument people used against the baker in the Masterpiece cakeshop case. Constantly people say "they aren't allowed to discriminate against gay people".

    But the baker in that case had no problem serving gay customers. He had done so many times previously with no issues. What he refused to do was decorate a cake that would be used in a gay wedding. And weddings are not a protected class.

    1. Foo_dd   3 years ago

      the baker had a right to refuse any non-standard request..... he refused to even hear what they wanted. where the cake gets eaten was really none of his fucking business.... it did not change the cake in any way, whatsoever.

      this is where it all falls apart with the dedication to absolute extremes. i think most people could get behind the fact that the baker can't be forced to put same sex toppers on, write the names of two guys, decorate with rainbows and dildos, etc..... but it turns to absolute insanity when you try to pretend that it being eaten after a gay wedding makes any fucking difference.

      1. mpercy   3 years ago

        As I recall, he told them they could buy a standard cake, so he didn't care where it was eaten. He just refused to decorate it.

        1. Foo_dd   3 years ago

          in other words, he refused to sell them a standard wedding cake.

          1. Azathoth!!   3 years ago

            No they could have a standard wedding cake. With the standard decoration. He was not going to personalize it.

            1. Foo_dd   3 years ago

              we don't know that they wanted it personalized in any way. he refused to hear what they wanted. he refused to sell them ANY wedding cake.

              sorry, but you are wrong. for those bakers where that is what happened, i am with you...... but that is not what happened in the case of this one. in this case it was a flat out refusal to sell them the product in any form. there was no specific objection beyond the people buying the cake being gay.

              1. mpercy   3 years ago

                Are we talking about different cases?

                "...refused to design a custom wedding cake..."

                "informing the couple that he did not create wedding cakes for marriages of gay couples...although the couple could purchase other baked goods in the store."

                Wikipedia:

                The case dealt with Masterpiece Cakeshop, a bakery in Lakewood, Colorado, which refused to design a custom wedding cake for a gay couple based on the owner's religious beliefs.

                Craig and Mullins visited Masterpiece Cakeshop in Lakewood, Colorado, in July 2012 to order a wedding cake for their return celebration. Masterpiece's owner Jack Phillips, who is a Christian, declined their cake request, informing the couple that he did not create wedding cakes for marriages of gay couples owing to his Christian religious beliefs, although the couple could purchase other baked goods in the store. Craig and Mullins promptly left Masterpiece without discussing with Phillips any of the details of their wedding cake.

                1. Foo_dd   3 years ago

                  "Are we talking about different cases?"

                  no, but English might not be your first language, i suppose.

                  "...informing the couple that he did not create wedding cakes for marriages of gay couples...."

                  he would not sell them ANY wedding cake. it was not a refusal to personalize it. it was not a refusal to meet any particular customization. he was not going to sell them a wedding cake because they were gay.... and no other reason.
                  i know "custom" is the word people want to hide behind, but it is right there in plain English..... he would not sell them ANY wedding cake. he did not object to the "custom order," he objected to them being gay.

                  "....although the couple could purchase other baked goods in the store."

                  kind of like a black person walking into a butcher shop and you tell them you don't sell black people steak, but they can buy baloney. he would not sell them the standard item they wanted to buy because they were gay..... and no other reason.

  30. mpercy   3 years ago

    Remember when Facebook and others were banning Trump? When they were banning COVID "deniers"? Etc.

    The cry from left was "Private businesses can refuse service to anyone they want to!" I knew they didn't mean it.

  31. Marshal   3 years ago

    It seems like it was just last week when all the leftists pretended to believe government cannot tell corporations what to say. Whoever could have guessed they would advance a principle only when it suits them.

  32. Thoritsu   3 years ago

    The difference between DeSantis and the ACLU positions are monopolistic control. The ACLU has abandoned freedom from an individual (or trivial minority business), in favor of a social movement. DeSantis is defending open communication from individuals over monopoly access control. This is virtually the same as anti-trust.

    Now one might argue that legislation was flawed. However, one can not argue there isn’t a overwhelming control of access in progress, and it is not at all fair or liquid in nature. (No, I didn’t say equity over equitable). Reason and Libertarians are victims in this particular media totalitarianism. Equating the ACLU to DeSants is wrong, spiteful and self-defeating.

    1. wreckinball   3 years ago

      Yes, companies colluding to cancel/censor certain folks is a violation of anti-trust.

      That is the difference but "Reasons"

  33. Joe Friday   3 years ago

    Thoritsu, DeSantis IS the monopoly control.

    Not sure how "libertarians" approve of a governor dictating speech and policy to private businesses but object to appeals to the law seeking the same thing.

  34. VinniUSMC   3 years ago

    I have less sympathy for the hosting portion of 303's web services than I do for the fact that they are designing something. They shouldn't be forced to design anything, for anyone, for any reason of their choosing. Could you force a street artist to paint a picture of something that they don't agree to? If 303 offers a service whereby any couple could generate their own wedding page automatically, with no further input from 303, then I think that it would be unoffensive to require that 303 allow that wedding page to remain hosted as if it were any other couple. But, if 303 is doing the designing, then they should have absolute freedom to decline to do so for any reason, so there should be no wedding page to fret about hosting in the first place.

  35. Fist of Etiquette   3 years ago

    Forget it, Shackleford. It's Virtuetown.

  36. questioner7   3 years ago

    Web _hosting_ isn't expressive. Visitors to a website don't see where it's hosted unless they purposely look that up, and they don't see what websites a given company hosts. So that's different from a bookstore's selection of books to display on its shelves.

    Website _design_ is creative, and forcing people to custom-design promotion of messages they oppose should be unconstitutional.

  37. alconnolly   3 years ago

    I tend to agree with any pro free speech argument, and I don't think the ACLU should have gotten involved. That said this articles main point was to seperate the customer from the service provided, giving examples where the argument makes sense.
    In this case creatiung and hostoing a wedding website for a gay wedding would always include pictures of the couple.
    I would venture to say there has never in the history of the company a single wedding website that they have created that does not include a picture of the couple.
    So, no in this situation refusing to host pictures is rejecting the customer from recieveing anything that could in any way count as prividing the service they offer.
    I don't think the author was being fair in trying to create a distinction (in this case) between the two.
    And I think in this clear cut case the ACLU conflation is eminintly reasonable.

    1. John Rohan   3 years ago

      I think you miss the point. The problem isn't that the people in the photos are gay. The problem, in the defendant's mind, is that they were celebrating a gay wedding.

      Weddings are not a protected class.

  38. Brett Bellmore   3 years ago

    I'm pretty sure the ACLU gave up on free speech quite a while ago. Maybe shortly after the CU decision, when they hired as director of litigation a guy whose claim to fame was gaming out ways to overturn the CU decision. The one where the ACLU had been an amicus on the WINNING side.

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