Alito's Abortion Ruling Overturning Roe Is an Insult to the 9th Amendment
The Constitution protects many more rights than it mentions, as James Madison explained.

At the heart of Justice Samuel Alito's opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, which overturns Roe v. Wade (1973) and eliminates the constitutional right to abortion, is Alito's objection that "the Constitution makes no mention of abortion." For Alito and the many legal conservatives who think like him, unenumerated constitutional rights are inherently suspect. When a court recognizes an unenumerated right, these conservatives say, that court is almost certainly guilty of judicial activism.
But this conservative mindset is at odds with constitutional text and history, both of which make clear that unenumerated rights are entitled to the same respect as the small handful of rights that the Constitution specifically lists.
Remember that when the Constitution was first ratified, it did not yet contain its famous first 10 amendments, otherwise known as the Bill of Rights. Those amendments arrived a few years later. They were added in response to the fierce criticism leveled against the Constitution by the Anti-Federalists, who opposed ratification on several grounds, one of which was that the document lacked a bill of rights, and therefore, in their view, left a number of key rights unprotected (because unmentioned).
The Federalists, who labored on behalf of the Constitution's ratification, rejected this argument. Why? Because, explained James Wilson, one of the leading figures at the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention, "if we attempt an enumeration, everything that is not enumerated is presumed to be given." And the consequence of that, Wilson told the Pennsylvania Ratification Convention, "is, that an imperfect enumeration would throw all implied power into the scale of the government; and the rights of the people would be rendered incomplete."
James Iredell, a future justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, made the same argument at the North Carolina Ratification Convention. "It would not only be useless, but dangerous, to enumerate a number of rights which are not intended to be given up," he said. That is "because it would be implying, in the strongest manner, that every right not included in the exception might be impaired by the government without usurpation." Furthermore, Iredell added, "it would be impossible to enumerate every one. Let anyone make what collection or enumeration of rights he pleases, I will immediately mention twenty or thirty more rights not contained in it."
James Madison, one of the principal architects of the new Constitution, closely followed this debate. On June 8, 1789, he gave a speech to Congress proposing the group of amendments that would ultimately become the Bill of Rights. While doing so, he directly addressed the Anti-Federalist/Federalist debate. "It has been observed also against a bill of rights, that, by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration," he said, "and it might follow by implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the general government, and were consequently insecure." Madison acknowledged that "this is one of the most plausible arguments I have ever heard urged against the admission of a bill of rights into this system; But, I conceive, that may be guarded against. I have attempted it."
Madison's attempt became enshrined in the Constitution as the Ninth Amendment. Here is what it says: "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." In short, unenumerated rights get the same respect as enumerated ones.
Today, most legal conservatives purport to be constitutional originalists. What that means for the legal debate over abortion is that any purported originalist must face the question of whether abortion rights may be considered to be among the unenumerated rights "retained by the people" that Madison's Ninth Amendment was specifically written and ratified to protect. Alito's opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization entirely fails to grapple with this necessary question.
Here is my answer to the question: Founding era history strongly supports the view that abortion rights, at least during the early stages of pregnancy, do fall within the orbit of Madison's Ninth Amendment. "When the United States was founded and for many subsequent decades, Americans relied on the English common law," explained an amicus brief filed in Dobbs by the American Historical Association and the Organization of American Historians. "The common law did not regulate abortion in early pregnancy. Indeed, the common law did not even recognize abortion as occurring at that stage. That is because the common law did not legally acknowledge a fetus as existing separately from a pregnant woman until the woman felt fetal movement, called 'quickening,' which could occur as late as the 25th week of pregnancy."
William Blackstone's widely read Commentaries on the Laws of England, first published in 1765, made this exact point: Life "begins in contemplation of law as soon as an infant is able to stir in the mother's womb." Under the common law, Blackstone explained, legal penalties for abortion only occurred "if a woman is quick with child, and by a potion, or otherwise, killeth it in her womb."
Blackstone's work was a major influence on America's founding generation. The founders read Blackstone and they well understood that abortion was legal during the early stages of pregnancy under the common law. What is more, because every state at the time of the founding followed the common law as described by Blackstone, no state originally possessed the lawful power to prohibit abortion before quickening. We might call this the original understanding of the regulatory powers of the states.
That same original understanding extends to the Ninth Amendment. Because the states followed the common law at the founding, the American people originally understood that lawmakers lacked the lawful power to prohibit women from ending an unwanted pregnancy during its early stages. The freedom to end an unwanted pregnancy before quickening thus falls within the original meaning and understanding of a right "retained by the people."
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Terrible take number 1. I expect many more.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/18/herschel-walker-fathers-day-weekend-pass-social-conservatives-00040710
Social conservative crowd cheers Herschel Walker after revelations of undiscussed kids
The former Heisman winner got applause from the Faith & Freedom crowd, after a week of reports that he had more children than he’d publicly acknowledged.
“Pro-family-values” square-jawed super-hero Republicans like Herschel Walker will be cheering the new abortion restrictions, ‘cause their lied-to harems full of fertile babes will now have a MUCH harder time of using abortion as “veto power” against lying scum-bucket men!!! Herschel Walker and ALL the other “Lying Lotharios” for the win!
See “Lying Lothario” details here… http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/#_Toc105750001
Herschel Walker will put an entirely NEW meaning to the phrase “binders full of women”! The harems of women will have “binders” on them, binding them as womb-slaves, by the onslaught of new anti-choice laws!
he's paying child support and everyone has to deal with family court regardless of consent agreements
Is he really? Do we actually know this?
Looks like you got your news from Crooksandliars.com.
Women are so helpless, eh SQRLSY?
Damn Lotharios….
What, the lied-to are guilty for having believed the lies? And the SUCK-CESS-POOLS-FULL of liars are innocent, and to be admired? This is what we would expect from a "person of the lie", indeed!
If you ever come around to wanting to work on your affliction, EvilBahnFuhrer, start here: M. Scott Peck, The People of the Lie, the Hope for Healing Human Evil
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684848597/reasonmagazinea-20/
People who are evil attack others instead of facing their own failures. Peck demonstrates the havoc these “people of the lie” work in the lives of those around them.
And the only solution, ever!, in any situation, avoid pregnancy... is to go ahead and get pregnant and then kill that fucking baby!
Stopped reading at title word "Insult". Guaranteed hack job.
Typical authoritarian response.
LOL
"You need to give me the freedom to murder people! Or you are an authoritarian!" - retarded libertarian.
Great rebuttal dumbass.
Why would I rebutt an obviously terrible take?
What utter bullshit.
Meanwhile the law professors over at Volokh say the ruling is so brilliant they could teach classes based on it.
And just this morning, ENB was talking about these overhyped takes on the SCotUS rulings...And this is an "Insult", says Root. smdh
ENB hardest hit by this decision.
To be honest, I wouldn't mind hitting her so hard she had to visit the ER every time any court in the United States issued an opinion.
"Meanwhile the law professors over at Volokh say the ruling is so brilliant they could teach classes based on it."
As of 1:28 pm Eastern time I have seen no column at Volokh addressing the ruling at all.
Look harder.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/05/03/ive-finished-reading-the-apparent-dobbs-draft-opinion/
"I took the time to read the apparent Dobbs draft opinion. It is a tour de force.
Justice Alito meticulously dissects, and forcefully responds to, every conceivable position in favor of retaining Roe and Casey. I could teach an entire law school seminar class on this opinion.
It touches on nearly every facet of constitutional law. Moreover, the opinion carefully addresses the concerns of other members of the majority. Alito cites Justice Gorsuch's book. Alito discusses safe harbor laws, which seemed important to Justice Barrett. Alito repeatedly cites Justice Kavanaugh's Ramos concurrence, and calls on returning the issue to the democratic process.
This is an opinion designed to hold five, as the saying goes."
Every facet EXCEPT the 9th amendment.
Because it's irrelevant? Because Root's argument is a joke?
This 9th amendment nonsense is bullshit because abortion was illegal pretty much everywhere before Roe v. Wade. The exact opposite of being a widely held unenumerated right.
This must be the talking point all the fifty-centing trolls flooding the comment sections everywhere are getting emailed from ActBlue and Media Matters of today. Too bad it's retarded.
Josh Blackman is right-wing authoritarian hack. He knows full well that the so-called legal reasoning behind this decision is nonsense. He doesn't care about that because it achieves his political goals.
The legal reasoning behind Roe was nonsense, too.
Call it an in-kind contribution.
Cope and seethe, ghoul.
"He knows full well that the so-called legal reasoning behind this decision is nonsense."
Also, tell us again about penumbras formed by emanations.
I was just there and that is NOT true.
You know they have twitter accounts right?
It wasn't Twitter. I was a whole analysis posted on Volokh after the leaked draft was released.
This guy's an idiot who only scanned the front page.
Oh, and they also have articles regarding the draft article, most likely what he is referring to.
You do know about the draft leak right?
@PLP 2
"I was just there and that is NOT true."
You're a fucking idiot. They've been posting about it since the beginning of May.
I've posted the quote above, here's the link again.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/05/03/ive-finished-reading-the-apparent-dobbs-draft-opinion/
It IS true.
There's nothing "brilliant" about it. Human rights issues, which both sides of the abortion argument claim this subject matter is, were never meant to be left up to the states to decide.
It's right there in the Constitution. Under the section labeled "Human Rights Issues."
"Human rights issues, which both sides of the abortion argument claim this subject matter is, were never meant to be left up to the states to decide."
Why and how so?
Human rights, eh? Good God man haven't you been paying attention? Everything is being called a human right nowadays. Just 2 or 3 days ago I read yet another article calling housing a human right. Also food, utilities, health insurance & on & on. We started out having the right to pursue happiness, now it's pursuing us! Like Terminator!
Username checks out. You're clearly incapable of reason.
Says the guy that thinks the 9th amendment argument is remotely valid.
sarcasmic is having a really bad few days here. Don't cut him any slack, I'm just reveling in it.
You forgot the core "human right" claimed by modern progressives: a life without personal responsibility or sadness.
Except that Abortion is NOT a HUMAN RIGHT and never has been. It was never CONSTITUTIONAL. IT was PRECEDENT LAW and based upon the attorney for Jane Roe (Norma McCorvey) using an illiterate woman to represent and creating a "what if this was the case" scenario.
Norma Mc Corvey later became educated and let everyone know that the entire case was LIES by her attorney.
Bottom line R v W was and is FRAUD UPON THE COURT and at all times under law should have been considered a NULL VERDICT. In other words legally speaking it never existed. SCOTUS corrected a 50 year old injustice and made the decision based upon the CONSTITUTION itself.
Well, a federal ban on it would likely not make you happier. Be glad for what you were provided.
There's nothing "brilliant" about it. Human rights issues, which BOTH the pro-choice and pro-life camps claim this to be, were NEVER meant to be left up to the states. Part of the reason the Civil War began is due to breaching that concept. The claim that this is just to uphold the morally correct principle of "states' rights" is utter nonsense. The end-game is a Federal ban on abortion. This is just a step closer to that goal. Both Republicans and Democrats have resorted to claiming they are trying to champion states rights after attempts to get what they want continuously fail at the federal level. Would leaving whether murder in general was okay or not up to the states sound like a reasonable thing to do? Of course not! How about rape? Pedophilia? You get the point, I hope...
Your strategically placed CAPS in your comment were very helpful, and made your argument so persuasive....You should write for Reason. Definitely. 🙂
My audience is NOT the intelligent crowd that already understands these things... ????
Actually, the question of what constitutes murder IS (and was originally intended to be) left up to the States. Only a moron things that what you imagine to to "human rights issues" were made a "Federal matter" by the US Constitution. And pedophilia??? Jeez, you are a moron.
"Would leaving whether murder in general was okay or not up to the states sound like a reasonable thing to do? Of course not! How about rape? Pedophilia? You get the point, I hope..."
You're an idiot. Leaving the states to be define their own laws and penalties around rape, murder, incest and pedophilia is perfectly okay. Explain to us why federalism wouldn't work there.
I'm an idiot because you are unable to understand a fairly simple concept? Yeah
okay... For murder, rape, etc,
states can decide sentence lengths and how different degrees are defined and whatnot. But they would not, in reality, get away with doing something like making it legal to just go out and kill people. You better believe that if states began trying to legalize murder or something insane like that, it would be addressed fairly quickly and added as an amendment to the Constitution or something of the sort as a failsafe against deranged state governments that think it's okay to do that, like when the 13th amendment was added to prevent slavery. The first of the main points I was trying to make here is that the vast majority of pro-lifers and pro-choicers alike would be totally fine with having their way at the federal level. They aren't really concerned about states rights. And the second is that human rights should not be, and usually aren't, left up to states to define. This isn't hard to underatand, idiot.
Contrary to what you might believe, the vast majority of Americans do not believe in abortion on demand.
"But they would not, in reality, get away with doing something like making it legal to just go out and kill people."
If somebody assaults you, in some states, you are allowed to defend yourself. In other states, you're required to run away and then, if unable to do so further, THEN defend yourself.
So, yes, states can and do define what is and what is not murder.
Because the Constitution lists the VERY FEW things that the Federal Government is allowed to be involved in. It specifically states that anything not specifically ENUMERATED in the Constitution is RELEGATED to the STATES.
The federal government is daily overstepping this. Each "state" by definition was an individual COUNTRY and the Federation was there for JOINT PROTECTION, interstate commerce, international treaty and international trade tariff. In fact the constitution CLEARLY told us that the ONLY way for the federal government to fund itself was trade tariffs! Today we need to take back the constitution and diminish the federal authority limiting it to the least possible interpretation as designed.
Are you implying motherhood is akin to slavery?
No, he is implying that any requirement to deal with the consequences of personal decisions is slavery.
Lmfao. That *is* left up to the states you colossal fucking dumbass. In order to be charged with federal murder there has to be a federal (interstate) nexus in your crime. If you kill somebody in Louisiana, and then spend the rest of your life in Louisiana, do you know how much jurisdiction the federal government has to prosecute you for murder? I won't leave you in suspense since you're clearly very stupid and with a very, very short attention span: the answer is 0 (zero).
Root (again) is claiming that the Ninth Amendment prohibits states from regulating ANYTHING addressed by common law. That seems like a very wild claim.
I thought at first you were making some knee-jerk idiot claim, but here it is:
Root is too smart to really mean that, but darned if I can tell what else it can mean. Legislation has always been able to modify common law, far as I know (IANAL). But then there is common law which backs up the 2nd Amendment, which is part of the reason for overturning the NY law. So I don't know what the legal quibblery really says about it.
As I note below, it is a complete flipping of what was actually happening.
200 years ago, we did not know that mercury was deadly. When we learned that it could result in brain poisoning and even death, it was outlawed. According to Root's logic, common law obviously recognized an unenumerated right to poison people because at the time, there were laws that assumed its use (in hat construction, for example).
Obviously there was no such unenumerated right. The simpler, more elegant answer is that there is no magical right to fetus killing, or mercury poisoning. We have a well articulated right to engage in commerce, medicine-taking or other activities as long as it doesn't grievously injure or kill another person. As soon as we discover that our actions are directly resulting in harm, common law recognizes the power of the government to intervene on behalf of the harmed.
What? This is absurd, mercury was never outlawed, it was in common usage well into the 80's and people simply understood it was dangerous and they needed to use caution when handling it. Your analogy sucks.
"This is absurd, mercury was never outlawed, it was in common usage well into the 80's and people simply understood it was dangerous and they needed to use caution when handling it."
Sorry, not outlawed, but heavily regulated. It is illegal to put mercury in all sorts of things that it was put in back in the 1800s.
But feel free to sub in any other thing that we have learned to be poisonous. Lead, Asbestos, etc.
...lead, asbestos, conservative opinion on social media...
...haggis, Juul e-cigarettes, The 1958 Federal Switchblade Act, bump stocks, Cuban cigars, Alcoholic energy drinks, Raw milk, Lawn darts...
I love the government and the government loves me.
YOUR POINT HAS BEEN INVALIDATED!
But feel free to sub in any other thing that we have learned to be poisonous. Lead, Asbestos, etc.
"We" have always known that lead and mercury are poisonous. Always.
Asbestos isn't poisonous, it's carcinogenic.
What you're describing is not evolution of human knowledge, it's the evolution of the regulatory state that decided hatters don't understand mercury as well as legislators do.
Not sure about this argument. Violate the 9th...weak sauce. Roe v Wade violated the 10th...strong sauce.
Or how about this...Mississippi now regulates abortion like the socialist paradise France does. Yawn.
Not sure about this argument. Violate the 9th...weak sauce. Roe v Wade violated the 10th...strong sauce.
That's . . . not actually the argument I made.
> isn't poisonous, it's carcinogenic
a distinction without a difference. god you're dumb
a distinction without a difference.
Actually, it's not. But you would have to be not dumb to know that.
"a distinction without a difference"
Wait, what?!
So the sun is poisonous? Bananas are poisonous? Dihydrogen monoxide is poisonous? (Hint: they're all carcinogenic).
i suppose i should've clarified: if it causes cancer, it's poison, even if that's inconvenient for your political ideology of deregulation and private control & domination.
"We" have always known that lead and mercury are poisonous. Always."
Absolute and utter horseshit.
Calomel, mercury chloride, was a commonly used medication into the early twentieth century. Often used to treat nothing more serious than constipation.
Lewis and Clark carried it on the Journey of Discovery by recommendation of Jefferson's physician.
The difference between a poison and medicine is often simply dosage and application. This has been known literally since the most ancient of times.
Lead was prescribed to Beethoven as a medication for his digestive issues, IIRC, and probably caused his deafness.
The ancient Romans even knew that lead was poisonous in large enough amounts, but used it for their piping anyway because it was the only pragmatic material and they accepted the tradeoff.
Read Chaucer's Canon's Yeoman's tale, the one about the alchemist, if you think people didn't know mercury was poisonous.
Hell - look into the various things associated with the god Mercury if you think people didn't know mercury was poisonous.
In fact, I'd be curious if you can name me a "medicine" that isn't poison.
Now you are just playing at sophistry. The point still stands that mercury and mercury containing compounds were widely available without any sort of restrictions or specialized supervision required. And I specifically cited calomel because opinions about it varied widely even while it was in common use refuting your "we" usage. Plenty of otherwise educated people thought it was perfectly fine to ingest large doses. And plenty of people did just that, suffering very serious and often permanent consequences. Do not try to pretend that those people knew what they were going to experience.
You cannot even put a mercury switch in a thermostat anymore, and look at what happens when you break a trace mercury containing light bulb in the workplace.
It wasn't always that way.
The point still stands that mercury and mercury containing compounds were widely available without any sort of restrictions or specialized supervision required.
Yes, which why I said:
What you're describing is not evolution of human knowledge, it's the evolution of the regulatory state that decided hatters don't understand mercury as well as legislators do.
Do "we" understand the effects of mercury and lead with more precision now?
Yes.
Did people prior to 1850 know mercury and lead were poisonous?
Yes.
What has changed is not our awareness that these things are poisonous. What has changed is the government's relationship with that fact.
""We" have always known that lead and mercury are poisonous. Always."
Come on man. The chinese used to eat it as a medicine. Hatters went mad from the fumes of using a mercury solution to help turn fur into felt. We didn't "Always know" shit. As recently as the fucking 50s we were using lead in paints. Because we didn't know that it could cause brain damage.
We didn't know that Asbestos was carcinogenic until after it had been installed in buildings as insulation. And now it is absolutely banned. Not because the "Regulatory state" grew to outlaw something we always had a right to use. It was banned because we learned that it is carcinogenic.
Come on man. The chinese used to eat it as a medicine. Hatters went mad from the fumes of using a mercury solution to help turn fur into felt.
Holy Hell, man, at least respond to things I'm actually saying.
Check this out from a comment sitting right there just ripe and ready to read:
The difference between a poison and medicine is often simply dosage and application. This has been known literally since the most ancient of times.
And you counter this with "The chinese used to eat it as a medicine?"
Ooh, you got me!
Hatters went mad from the mercury fumes but didn't understand they were poisonous?
Opium was also used a medicine a lot - did people not understand that it could kill you?
We didn't know that Asbestos was carcinogenic until after it had been installed in buildings as insulation. And now it is absolutely banned. Not because the "Regulatory state" grew to outlaw something we always had a right to use. It was banned because we learned that it is carcinogenic.
So . . . it was banned not because there was a regulatory state that had grown up around the practice of banning things that the state has determined to be harmful, it was banned because . . . a regulatory state that had grown up around the practice of banning things that the state has determined to be harmful . . . determined it was harmful and banned it?
And the reason that these things weren't banned and regulated before was not the lack of a regulatory state but was because people just didn't realize that they were poisonous?
Democrats...
Overt, while you make arguments and use reason in your posts, you make up stuff and post it as fact (such as your post that mercury was outlawed, then later you changed it to "heavily regulated"). For that reason, and as a libertarian who knows better and actually wants more freedom, I'm muting you.
From Wikipedia on erethism:
By 1934 the U.S. Public Health Service estimated that 80% of American felt makers had mercurial tremors. Nevertheless, trade union campaigns (led by the United States Hat Finishers Association, originally formed in 1854) never addressed the issue and, unlike in France, no relevant legislation was ever adopted in the United States. Instead, it seems to have been the need for mercury in the war effort that eventually brought to an end the use of mercuric nitrate in U.S. hatmaking
The Wikipedia entry on Mercury Regulation in the USA shows the first regulation regarding using mercury, being the 1938 Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FFDCA).
"Your analogy sucks."
"Hurr, durr, only effectively and not literally"
You should drink some mercury to really drive your point home.
There has also been a scientific change; assuming no life or soul before the quickening probably seemed pretty reasonable until relatively recently. Now there is no such sharp line.
Plenty of people are wallowing in intellectual dishonesty, trying to pretend that the focus on quickening was anything other than the first legally acceptable evidence that another human life was present.
Absence of quickening was never thought to be absence of pregnancy, merely absence of proof of pregnancy.
Thank you! Blackstone would have a field day with a modern ultrasound.
The quickening argument is so odd to me. Even taking that as the common law argument, it comes from the science at the time presuming that was when the baby was alive. We have better data and techniques now and can pretty reasonably say that one has a distinct living thing, that is genetically a human, at conception. So, following the quickening argument doesn't buy them much.
But, I also just think it's weird that I so often see people who claim to be scientific (or at least Sciencey) really quickly fall back to medieval philosophical understandings of gestation.
The only reason why the Quickening is a thing was that it was the best understanding of "New Life" that they had at the time. I don't know of anyone who, today, thinks it is the appropriate demarkation point for life.
So the Quickening's importance is as a historical footnote to help us understand the intent of the common law. It seems pretty clear that they chose the Quickening because it was the first point at which a mother would understand that her actions could harm a separate life. YMMV of course, but if you look at the laws that even Root provides, it is at this point they are saying that the mother is killing the child.
I agree. That's my point. The medievals used it as their best measure of life. We have better measures now, and so to stick with the Quickening argument, which I actually hear a lot. It's saying that we should ignore their reasoning, but use their technological understanding. I could see ignoring both, or following their reasoning, but I do feel comfortable saying our technological capabilities have in fact increased..
Dang I thought Joe died.
I had hoped so.
As if no one at that time had seen a fetusand thereby understood they were living beings with 2 arms, etc., i.e. human. Of course they did and probably much more commonly than we do today. The issue was not life but viability.
Oh bullshit. There is no viability at quickening even now, and never was when that standard developed. You take a fetus out at the quickening and it will die.
You are so full of shit in everything you say.
Even a 1 month old isn't viable from its own actions, which seems to be Joe's implications here. Because if it just means able to survive. A fetus is able to survive until birth as long as it isnt aborted.
But stop feeding a 1 month old it too will die.
Viability meaning active and vibrant, not capable of independent existence - obviously. Miscarriages were also as well known then as now at least, and fetal development not unknown.
Viability means being able to survive with or without medical intervention. This has been an issue that arose from Casey, as Viability was defined as a standard there, but medical technology has pushed viability further and further back.
Joe, a 1 month old baby post birth can't survive independently.
It’s funny how stupid you are.
More "pathetic, curious" funny than "ha-ha!" funny, but sure, funny.
"Viability meaning active and vibrant, not capable of independent existence - obviously."
they were living beings with 2 arms, etc., i.e. human
Or even living beings with gills and webbed and hands and feet, i.e. not-quite-human.
https://twitter.com/LilaGraceRose/status/1540405446967562240?t=DgTEC0oj6YnG98ewmkWttQ&s=19
CNN commentator uses her disabled brother & step granddaughter who has Down syndrome as examples of why we need abortion.
The ugly cruelty. The utterly bald ageism and ableism. The unfettered call for violence against the unborn disabled.
[Video]
While that doesn't really respond to the point I'm (somewhat flippantly) making, and while I agree that there's something a bit macabre about pointing to your own living relatives as candidates for euthanasia, I'm actually an advocate of euthanasia.
I don't really understand people who bring babies with severe Down's into the world with no plan for how to care for them after they're gone and think they're doing something morally wonderful.
And I really, really don't understand people who force other people to live lives of intense suffering because they can't personally imagine anything worse than death.
That's a you issue
Maybe, but that's the beauty of being a libertarian/individualist. I get that I'm in the minority on that one, but it doesn't bother me.
Wasn't trying to imply anything different
If you took a poll, the sample would quite obviously be biased by the fact that everyone who responded is, in fact, alive and not aborted.
I really don't understand how people think killing retarded children is not evil.
it was the first point at which someone other than a mother would understand that her actions could harm a separate life
FTFY
This is the heart of the matter, and always will be.
You have a new life that is coming into being inside of the mother's own internal organs.
No one has power over that other than her, not even if a legislature decides to insert itself in between a woman and her own womb.
It has always been thus, and thus it shall always be.
And quickening does not support the Roe/Casey regime, which wanted to say that restrictions on abortion around that time in a pregnancy were forbidden as well.
Yes. The 15 week bans are quickening bans. Quickening is 15 - 16 weeks.
12-18 is a more reasonable spread, but 15-16 is the middle of the range. Personally I'd be comfortable allowing the full 18 weeks in law, but the ghoulish fucking Moloch-worshipers won't have that. And then they'll go on to to tell you that only 0.0000000000000000000000001% of abortions take place after the first 3 days anyway, so it doesn't even matter. If it doesn't even matter, then why are you having histrionic fits of apoplexy about it?
We have better data and techniques now and can pretty reasonably say that one has a distinct living thing, that is genetically a human, at conception.
First - you are now making a 'living constitution' argument.
Second - that better 'data and techniques' is NOTHING more than justifying government by Top Men in white lab coats.
The value of 'quickening' now is exactly the same as it was then. An objective criteria that is obvious to pretty much everyone. Which is the prerequisite if the action taken at/after that point is now going to be a social/public decision rather than a private decision.
The value of 'quickening' now is exactly the same as it was then. An objective criteria that is obvious to pretty much everyone. Which is the prerequisite if the action taken at/after that point is now going to be a social/public decision rather than a private decision.
^
"Quickening" might possibly be the furthest possible polar opposite of an "objective" standard that could ever possibly exist. It can happen as early as 10 weeks for some women, as late as 20 weeks for others, and since babies in the womb generally don't spend most of their time practicing the mambo in there, you'd be pretty hard pressed to identify it as an outsider unless you happen to be lucky enough to have your hand on a woman's pregnant belly when the baby randomly kicks or moves.
That was the entire point of the post this braindamaged sack of shit and you replied to. We no longer have to post up a sheriff at the woman's house to feel around and see if the baby is kicking because we can just visualize it in 30 seconds on a fucking ultrasound. What you two abject fucking morons are saying is exactly like suggesting that we should do away with transducers and return to exclusively using water or mercury barometers to measure atmospheric pressure.
"Quickening" might possibly be the furthest possible polar opposite of an "objective" standard that could ever possibly exist.
That's . . . not actually what we're talking about. Do try to keep up.
I am not making a living constitution argument. I'm saying the reasoning stays the same, but the technology has changed the implications of that.
You're now making an argument akin to "They only had muskets back when the Constitution was ratified." We can change in our understanding of the facts, but the underlying reasoning remains the same.
For your second comment, it is a less objective criteria then genetics as it depends on the ability of a mother to feel the baby moving. That's the definition of Quickening and because it relies on the question of the sensations of the mother, is not objective. It's a reasonable line at a time when it was the best we had.
Now we have genetics measurements that are able to answer two questions:
1) Is it human? Yes. This is clearly true, it's a human with a distinct genetic composition. If it is not a human, then what is it? A fetus is a developmental stage, not a species so please don't answer with that.
2) Is it alive? This is where the hard question lives, but it meets a pretty standard definition of life used in most other fields. One that is only ignored when it is inconvenient.
Quickening is not based purely on the sensations of the mother. It is based on everyone else feeling the moving and kicking. By definition, it is certainly intrusive. But then so is everything else about abortion as a social/public decision.
Genetics is only based on something objective once you have faith in the person in the white lab coat interpreting the genetics. Which is of course the purpose of wearing the white lab coat - to instill faith in expertise. It is very much akin to determining paternity. If the father believes the purpose of the testing is gotcha or 'take my money', then he won't believe the results
No. Quickening is when mother first feels movement. Roughly 15-16 weeks gestation.
In legal terms it was when others could feel the quickening. 'pleading the belly' was a legal delay in imposing capital punishment on a woman. That delay - like most legal actions is not based on one person's say so.
No. "Quickening" was that the baby moved. In 1779 the way that was detected was that the mother, or others, could feel it do so. Now we have ultrasound and can detect it a bit earlier, but that doesn't change the legal analysis of what quickening implies, merely the available proof.
You ignore the "musket" analogy. It sinks your premise entirely.
Your genetics response is word salad. Humans beget humans. Humans have inalienable rights. The interest of the human fetus matters.
What else would you expect? He exhausted every other possible thread of his limited intellect. This is a guy, mind you, who has spent the last 30 months (yes, 30 months folks) in a blind fucking panic about COVID-19 and insisting that anyone who didn't "trust the science" and get pricked with the jab plus 5-6 boosters was a literal murderer. It's a stupid, backward, bootlicking, Nazi piece of shit. Treat it as such.
Hey, aren't you the pathetic piece of shit who spent the last 30. fucking. months. suggesting that anyone who didn't get the COVID-19 vaccine as well as 4-5 "boosters" was an anti-science selfish piece of shit personally responsible for over 1 million deaths? Hey, look at that, you are! You can fuck yourself so far into eternity that the second coming of Jesus will seem like the blink of an eye you Nazi bootlicking piece of shit. Fuck. You.
Progressives are just as much into a faith-based existence as Baptists. And like Baptists, they might deviate from scripture when personally convenient, and re-embrace the doctrine when judging others. So no surprise that their emotional panic over COVID had them genuflecting, and crusading to bring "science" to the infidels, but questioning the science faith when they get inconveniently knocked up.
"That's the definition of Quickening and because it relies on the question of the sensations of the mother, is not objective."
Nonsense. The sensations of the mother when a fetus kicks are actual physical sensations from an act that can be readily observed in the presence of an ultrasound machine. There are always boundary issues, but that is true of basically anything.
Hey, aren't you the histrionic faggot piece of boot licking Nazi shit who just spend the last 30 months hiding under your bed with 3 masks strapped to your face insisting that anyone who didn't get 5-6 injections of the experimental and failed mRNA treatment for COVID-19 was personally responsible for over 1 million deaths in this country? Oh right, you are! Fuck off with this shit now after the pathetic fucking display you've put on over these last 2.5 years you actual fucking Nazi piece of shit. I hope you take up arms one day so I can have the pleasure of blowing that air and fecal matter out of the part of your skull where a brain should have been.
Ooh. A coprophilic moron with anger management problems and obsessed with Nazis.
That might be an interesting shtick. For a two year old.
Notably, jfree argued for months that anyone who didn't take the experimental covid vaccine should be absolutely prohibited from hospital treatment if they subsequently sought it.
I think we were supposed to forget that…
I didn’t.
What on earth makes you think Root is smart enough to put his left shoe on his left foot?
but lets go with that. Much better country that way.
"prohibits states from regulating ANYTHING"
It should prohibit the state from regulation of things WITHOUT INQUIRING about the 9th amendment and its impact !
thats not a bad take - a sort of mandatory 'Environmental Review' policy
The principled part of me has long agreed that
* Roe v Wade was an abomination (IANAL) because the 9th amendment was enough. Dragging in the penumbras and emanations was really dumb, because it almost explicitly said abortion was not covered by the 9th. And hell, if the 4th isn't about the right to privacy, what is?
* I am glad to see Roe v Wade finally discarded, because its legal reasoning was so atrocious, a typical activist court afraid to recognize the 9th even existed because that might allow other rights that they did not like. It reminded me of Slaughterhouse in its wholesale repudiation of what both opponents and proponents said of the 14th Amendment.
* Laws against abortion are the kind that give me the creeps, being impossible to enforce fairly in the vast majority of the cases. Miscarriage? Rape? Incest? Mother's health? Bah. Their vagueness and selective enforcement alone ought to be grounds for being unconstitutional.
* All this fuss over abortion as a legal / constitutional right really frosts me. It is too easily circumvented to be worth so much fuss when there are far more people hurt by drug wars, judicial immunity, and shitting on economic liberty.
Here here!
Hear, hear! even.
"Hear, Here!" makes the most sense of all
Here? HERE?!?!?!
Hear a Hare here?
Hay guise, cum on now.
Ignorant indignant indigenous indigent with a carribean carbine caribener.
And always Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
The really, really principled side of me says:
profityay for me!You think a human can have an owner?
That explains much, and that a right to abortion is a libertine, rather than libertarian, notion.
Well, I own myself, as you own yourself. And I've been known to sell my labor and fruits thereof to others as I'm sure you do. Anyway, I think she may have been referring to the animals.
First of all, Roberta is a guy. Second of all, he said:
He wasn't talking about animals. He legitimately thinks the "owner" of a child (which turns out to be the person who contributed exactly 50% of the genetic material of which the child is composed) has implied permission to kill it. He thinks this because he is a sociopath piece of shit, just like most abortion advocates, and really, really, really, really, really, really, really needs to have some kind of legal recourse for killing children. You should be very, very, very, very, very, very cautious around people like that. They mostly keep their sociopathy hidden because they know it would not be socially acceptable, and in that way are usually more dangerous than unrepentant sociopaths. The Ted Bundys rather than the Jeffrey Dahmers.
>I don't think fetuses or even newborns care whether they live or die
What planet do you live on? What kind of nonsense is this?
Exceptional formatting
Let's try it out:
::marker
" Roe v Wade was an abomination (IANAL) because the 9th amendment was enough. Dragging in the penumbras and emanations was really dumb, because it almost explicitly said abortion was not covered by the 9th. And hell, if the 4th isn't about the right to privacy, what is?"
That is a rational analysis. Making one wonder why they so obviously chose not to invoke the Ninth?
My supposition is that they didn't invoke the Ninth because to do so would have been a Pandora's Box that risked unravelling far too much of the 20th century progressive administrative state.
That, and they really didn't believe the Ninth mattered because to them the Ninth never had any real meaning or provided any meaningful recognition of anything.
If they had used the 9th as their reasoning people would have been able to successfully argue that the war on drug users was unconstitutional.
Question asked, question answered. Sacrifice your children to Moloch all you want, just don't you dare smoke a J before you do it.
The 9th should cover murder too. In case I don't like people #freedom.
You're half right but if abortion is an unenumerated right then it is a subset of a right to bodily autonomy, and a huge portion of the federal governments apparatus goes bye bye.
Roe v Wade was a terrible, low IQ decision because it tried to thread the needle of "abortion and abortion only,before the 3rd trimester" instead of "yeah you own your fucking body"
"yeah you own your fucking body"
Of course, what the fetophiles say is that a woman loses her ownership of her body AFTER fucking.
And I guess a child only gets ownership of its body as long as it isn't inconvenient to mom.
It's more that the question is whose rights come out on top in that conflict.
Here is my reasoning:
Probably a few more I left out. They will come to me later.
a child only gets ownership of its body as long as it isn't inconvenient to mom
A child gets ownership of its body once it has a separate body.
It has a separate body.
No problem then—just remove the embryo from the woman and let it get on with its life. Maybe you can rent it an apartment.
"No problem then—just remove the embryo from the woman and let it get on with its life. Maybe you can rent it an apartment."
Last time I checked, when a mother does that with its infant, it is called neglect and- if the infant dies- murder. SO your analogy seems strained.
A mother can turn over an infant to someone else to care for it. That isn't possible with a zygote. That's why those of us who are in touch with reality see a difference between the two situations.
Maybe if you weren't a moron, you'd realize there's quite a bit of development that takes place between the zygote and magic birth canal trip stages.
But then he'd have to sacrifice his religious adherence to baby murder at the altar of modern science just like they've been telling Christians to do for 200 years. Can't have that.
-fix-
The difference is trivial, and will become increasingly more trivial as surrogacy and artificial womb technology continue to mature. You'll still remain a death cultist Moloch-worshiping child sacrificer though, so at least you'll have your demented principles to take to hell with you.
Oh, also, a mother can simply bring a zygote to term as a ~22 week old fetus and then give it up. We're talking about killing a child because you are such a lazy, entitled piece of shit that you can't manage to gestate the life you fucked into being for a whole whopping fucking 5 and a half months. If only I could discard the rest of my obligations that easily!
It has a separate body.
Define "separate." I strongly doubt you can come up with a definition that will apply to a fetus still in the womb.
It is genetically unique from the mother.
Doesn't make it separate. When a baby comes out, you literally have to cut it away from its mother with a knife.
So it's not murder if you stab it in the head instead of cutting the umbilical cord?
We're not discussing the definition of "murder," we're discussing the definition of "separate."
The fetus quite literally does not have it's own separate, independently-owned body until it is born.
Thus, the question of "bodily autonomy" or "bodily ownership" is irrelevant to discussing a fetus.
Yes, I was extending the question to whether the child is considered a person prior to the umbilical cord being severed, because that's the logical extension of the argument surrounding whether the unborn child is a distinct individual.
If not, the act of birth wouldn't change that fact prior to the umbilical being severed.
I was extending the question to whether the child is considered a person prior to the umbilical cord being severed, because that's the logical extension of the argument surrounding whether the unborn child is a distinct individual.
What does the word "person" mean, again? I was told it had something to do with bodily autonomy and being separate from the mother.
I've also been told it's heartbeat, and unique human DNA.
I'm sure there are solid arguments for not killing a fetus at 40 weeks, but bodily autonomy isn't one of them.
Potential bodily autonomy? I could see an argument for that one - pretty much the same concept as viability.
But pre-viability there's no argument for potential or even hypothetical bodily autonomy.
So as long as the umbilical cord is attached the mother can kill it?
So as long as the umbilical cord is attached the mother can kill it?
That's . . . the exact opposite of what I said.
You're going to have to have a pretty serious discussion with tens of millions of babies who were extracted prematurely and never took a trip down the MagicVag™
No, it's actually not. It's a much more succinct, much less pretentious way of saying what you're desperately struggling not to say, because like most abortion zealots you realize what a ghoulish sociopath it would make you look like to civilized human beings.
like most abortion zealots you realize what a ghoulish sociopath it would make you look like to civilized human beings.
Thank you for your invaluable contributions to the discussion - I assure you that I continue to take you completely seriously.
When a baby comes out, you literally have to cut it away from its mother with a knife.
My question was in response to that statement, and is a logical conclusion to the “not a separate entity” argument.
Stupid threading.
"Doesn't make it separate. When a baby comes out, you literally have to cut it away from its mother with a knife."
Oh my god between your word games with poisons and now this nonsense you are demonstrating an extremely shallow thinking.
But if you want to get down to it, it is QUITE easy to tell the difference. The Baby's "Body" is all the tissue that is genetically unique to that baby. That includes the child, its umbilical, the amneonic sack that the baby is in until birth and the placenta that is the interface between the mother's uteran wall and the baby.
Despite the fact that these are attached, any doctor can tell you where the uteran wall (the mother) and the placenta (the baby) begins. When the baby is born, these external organs (sac, placenta and umbilical) are amputated because they are no longer needed.
You guys act as if this is some mystical grey area. But it is well known where the baby starts and where it ends, ffs.
Oh my god between your word games with poisons and now this nonsense you are demonstrating an extremely shallow thinking.
Go fuck yourself if you can't have a respectful conversation.
Despite the fact that these are attached, any doctor can tell you where the uteran wall (the mother) and the placenta (the baby) begins.
I can do the same thing with your liver.
Don't accuse someone of engaging in sophistry if you're going to turn around and engage in sophistry.
Are you really arguing that no separation is involved when a baby leaves a mother's body and has it's umbilical cord cut?
Really?
And yet your liver isn’t a human being.
And yet your liver isn’t a human being.
No, but removing it would involve a separation, which is what we are talking about. My liver does not have bodily autonomy by virtue of being identifiable and separable.
There's a different thread about viability.
My liver will continue to grow into an independent person as soon as it is separated from my body?
If you keep drinking that heavily, yeah - probably.
Actually you don't, the placental expulsion or "afterbirth" will follow the baby by a very short period of time, and the practice of severing the umbilical cord too early is now widely acknowledged as an error of previous medical science. The orthodoxy today is to wait 1-5 minutes before clamping and severing the umbilical cord, and it's not uncommon to bank the remaining placental blood for possible future medical treatment. The resultant children (late-state zygotes, if you makes you blood-cultist murdering pieces of shit feel any better about your blood-cult) typically suffer less from fetal nutritional deficiencies and may experience more rapid brain and lung development.
It really is absolutely remarkable how abjectly ignorant and fucking stupid most of you are about basic biology, and yet feel eminently qualified to make public policy based on your idiotic, ill-conceived, century-old, deprecated, ignorant superstitions. Anything for your blood cult.
I wonder whether you've ever actually seen a birth happen. Or, for that matter, ever kept company with a female at all.
I have my doubts.
So is cancer.
Deeeeeeeeeefinitely keep up the "fetuses are cancer" messaging bro, makes you look like a totally normal and not completely fucked up, deranged piece of sociopathic shit.
"a woman loses her ownership of her body AFTER fucking."
Much like parents "lose ownership" of their lives after the birth of their child.
Certain acts impose responsibilities.
We're libertarians here. We believe assuming responsibilities should be voluntary.
The vast majority of pregnancies are the known consequence of voluntary actions, unless you're going with the "all sex is rape" position.
That's irrelevant to the question of whether a woman should be coerced into continuing the pregnancy.
Continuing a pregnancy that you began with the volitional act of fucking is no more being "coerced into continuing the pregnancy" than continuing to breath is being "coerced into continuing your life". If I sign a loan agreement completely voluntarily, and then decide that the cost of the loan doesn't fit into my budget, I do not get to discharge the loan because it is no longer convenient to me. When I signed the contract with another party, I subordinated some of my rights to theirs. I know you're incredibly fucking stupid and biologically literate to only about a 2nd or 3rd grade level, but surely even someone of your extremely limited intellectual capability can see how OPTING IN to a predictable consequence imposes some obligation on the person who OPTED IN to that predictable consequence of their own free will, right? Or are you still going to go with the "B-B-B-B-B-BUT RAPE!!!!!!!!" argument despite rape babies comprising less than 1% of all abortions?
Yes. The birthing person voluntarily had unprotected sex, hence assuming the responsibility of childbirth. Rape and incest are a separate issue, and a distint minority of cases anyway. If Planned Parenthood's fetal tissue business model had to depend solely rape and incest cases, they'd go belly up ;-b
So, like after a losing night at the casino funded by VISA?
Like most libertarians, Vernon is really fucking stupid, really fucking proud of it, and wants to be treated exactly like the child that he actually is.
Yeah, guess what, fucko? Every fucking responsibility you assumed since the part of you that would have developed into a brain slid down your mother's asscrack and became a stain on her sheets was one you assumed voluntarily. Remember when you had to club that girl over the head and take her unconscious body into a back alley so you could shove your microchode into her slit for a minute and a half? That was you voluntarily assuming responsibility for the child you would have fathered. Don't like it? Don't be an irresponsible piece of fucking shit! You don't get to fucking pick and choose which obligations you wish to recognize based on whether they are convenient for you or not. Want to avoid an unplanned pregnancy? Well, don't worry, your 46 IQ and the fact that you look like a troglodytic Downie should take care of that. But in the event that you avail yourself of the only reproductive avenue accessible to you - rape - be prepared to man up, you pathetic little faggot pussy.
To be clear, i'm not making a judgement about where to land on the fetus vs. woman autonomy question.
the point is that Roe was a terrible decision because it was a convoluted and unintelligent meandering load of bullshit to support an outcome-based ruling that made no sense and failed utterly to address the question of a person's actual right to privacy.
And even worse, it was based on and continued to promulgate the false and backwards legal approach to constitutional rights, namely that the only rights we have are "found in" the constitution . The truth is literally the opposite. the only powers the federal government has over us are enumerated explicitly in the constitution and we citizens enjoy EVERY OTHER possible freedom you can imagine.
Even today's decision gets it backwards claiming 'there is no right i the constitution for abortion'
Yeah, well, the judges have for decades been embarrassed by anti-sex statutes' persistence in the USA, and have worked to establish a right of privacy as applied to fucking, and limited to fucking and its consequences, while pretending it's about something else — something vague that they can tempt people with and make business for lawyers in futile appeals.
It seems the only place we give perfect autonomy is to women wrt pregnancy. Men are not fully autonomous, their work product being forced from them to support a child, either voluntarily or by force. Parents do not have full autonomy. Full autonomy is a fiction feminists made up, thinking men have full autonomy. If men ever had full autonomy, it’s because society tolerated some of the worst excesses of men. But men have never morally been autonomous, even societally. Cads and deadbeats were never viewed with social approval.
Men should not be so coerced. Men should be held responsible for the child of a woman they impregnated only if they are married to her or otherwise entered a contract to support the child.
So that whole "individual responsibility" thing, that's actually pretty flexible in your extremely slow-moving, dim-witted, half-functional, illiterate mind, huh?
Artificial insemination aside, a child is not the product of "individual responsibility". Especially given the ability of females to abort or not abort irrespective of the wishes of their sex partner I don't see much downside to Depner's suggestion. Women not having sex with men unless his sig is on a dotted line would solve many problems.
I just heard all of the 'libertarian" women go "RHEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!"
"Even today's decision gets it backwards claiming 'there is no right i the constitution for abortion'"
I looked in the decision for the phrase "Constitution for abortion". No hits.
Thank you and congratulations on a post covering the topics Root brings up in the Constitution, instead of a post arguing about "where to land on the fetus vs. woman autonomy question." Any libertarian should realize libertarians are on both sides of the issue, simply because it's a conflict between the rights of the mother vs. the rights of a fetus. Root discusses enumerated vs. unenumerated rights (specified in the 9th Amendment), and argues abortion is an unenumerated right based on the common law history. I agree with his argument.
My favorite SCOTUS nominee question (that's never been asked for obvious reasons, but maybe we can get Rand to ask it): "The Ninth Amendment discusses unenumerated rights, not listed in the Constitution, that the government may not 'deny or disparage'. Can you please list for us, some of those unenumerated rights and the basis for them being "retained by the people"? It seems to me, the political class has taken both Alito's and Lawrence Tribe's view of the 9th amendment. As Tribe argues:
'"The ninth amendment is not a source of rights as such; it is simply a rule about how to read the Constitution."
As Alito puts it:
"... the Constitution's refusal to "deny or disparage" other rights is far removed from affirming any one of them, and even farther removed from authorizing judges to identify what they might be, and to enforce the judges' list against laws duly enacted by the people."
The political class, and that includes our judges, mostly sticks together so the government can tax the population and redistribute workers taxes for the political class' benefit. 50 years ago, Democrats defended personal liberties, and Republicans defended economic freedoms. Today, only a segment of the GOP defends either (that would be the libertarian leaning GOP, I can't even call the Democrat governor Polis "libertarian leaning"). Many in the political class dream of being King ruling over us, with freedom existing only for them.
But that thread was already most of the way thru that needle because of Griswold. That decision was just about the same piece of shit, just concerning a less controversial topic: contraception. It would've been very hard to not decide in favor of Roe without admitting they'd fixed it for Griswold, just a few years earlier.
What's funny was that the Griswold case had to be manufactured, as laws against birth control were practically dead letters across the country. Maybe the court thought in the case of Roe that within a few years abortions would cease to be controversial too, in the USA at least.
Cry more, leftist bitch.
LOL. You read her articles? It takes less than 3 sentences to discern her "arguments". Clearly she and most jurinalists were not classically educated.
No, I rarely read the garbage these Reason leftists write. I come for the commenters.
But the leftist hivemind feelz are easily predictable.
Please, let's not disparage, insult or bring hate to our Reason authors. Further, I'd say your insult of Damon Root as a bitch is misplaced and obviously incorrect. I'm of the belief there are two sexes (male and female), and AFAIK Root is neither female or a bitch. Further, I don't find his beliefs "leftist". Root didn't judge the law (or morality of abortion; law and morality often not intersecting), he merely pointed out the common law basis of an unenumerated right not listed in the Constitution. One can only presume Root supports a woman's right to abortion based on his analysis of how it was handled before the US existed, and AFAIK he could be a pro-life guy. The article isn't about whether abortion is right/wrong; it's about the unenumerated rights mentioned in the 9th amendment, and how the abortion ruling is an affront to the unenumerated rights. Hey, there's many more unenumerated rights I want to keep, that are more important to me personally (given plans and inability to have more kids with my wife).
If you've got a beef with one of Reason's authors, use your reason, solid facts and an argument to rebut them, and hopefully persuade/change them to be better libertarians, and as a result, a better person.
Reading your post, I won't analyze what it reflects about you, but I hope you calm down and use reason instead of emotion in your thinking. Good luck.
Since the constitution does not mention abortion then it can not regulate it by allowing or denying it and hence it goes to the individual states which the constitution itself says anything not mention in the constitution is the purview of the states, Reason is being silly here. It is the correct decision. I for one abhor abortion but would not outlaw it other than not letting the government use my tax dollars to pay for it.
We do have a lot of rights the Constitution doesn't mention, because what is outside the power of the federal government is supposed to default to the right of individuals.
The obvious issue here is that this is one "right" that potential robs another individual's right to life. So again, the question isn't about just whether mothers have a right to bodily integrity (they do), but the question is about when and how a fetus comes into its rights.
Follow the science, so the Left told us from March 2020 forward. Except when they opt to act like the Catholics they skewer when it comes to their interpretation of the Catholic Church allegedly rejecting Galileo's scientific contributions.
one sperm has 23 chromosomes (haploid), which fertilizes an ovum that also has 23 chromosomes (haploid), creating one cell with 46 chromosomes, a diploid organism, that undergoes immediate cell division demonstrating electrical, genetic, biochemical, metabolic and physiological activity characteristic of only one entity in our world: life
If you stick to science, abortionists lose their emotional arguments
Life is sacred, far more than the US Capital building that was allegedly "desecrated" on Jan 6, 2021.
If you stick to insisting that a woman does not lose her right to bodily autonomy when she becomes pregnant, then the anti-abortionists lose their "scientific" arguments.
no they don't... it becomes a game of which do we value more... and what is the proper place of our rights in a civilized society.
Also.. one could make the argument that the space occupied by the baby is not part of the body of the woman although it is encompassed by the womans body - think the vatican within italy. She has no (or limited) authority over that space. To invade that space with a doctors ice pick or a coat hanger or whatever would be an act of aggression since it is acting on or within an area that is not the womans body.
Where's the laughing face button?
3 days of birth can a mother leave her baby on the ground and walk away. Or is she forced to take it to a drop off center? Because she has no autonomy there either if you require action from her to make sure baby can survive abandonment. Your argument is simplistic.
It's quite a stretch to say that a woman has "no autonomy" because you make her go to the nearest police station/hospital. That's like saying I have no autonomy because I need to drop my census form off at the mailbox once every ten years.
It is exactly the same. She is forced to do something she isn't doing voluntarily.
As is every parent right up until the moment the state acknowledges they are freed from that burden.
If you stick to
insisting that a woman does not lose her right to bodily autonomy when she becomes pregnant, then the anti-abortionists lose their"scientific" arguments all else fails.Science is not interested in your feelings.
Galileo sends his warmest regards
Science has no answers to questions of philosophy, values, or ethics. What rights people should have is not a question for science.
How many people are directly involved in an abortion?
Is this the setup for a Polish joke?
Four. Two to call the servants, and two to mix the drinks. Wait...
You guys terminated the point I was developing!
If you think that arguments like that are winners, then you really don't understand what you are arguing against.
No one in the modern age thinks a fetus isn't life. That's not under debate. The questions are whether a person has an absolute right to control their own body, and what actually constitutes the moral status of being a human being with all the rights that entails.
You can't answer moral and political questions with science.
“ No one in the modern age thinks a fetus isn't life. ”
At least two people on any given abortion thread will state such.
Once a woman is pregnant, it's no longer just "her" body. She is no longer simply an individual. Perhaps we need to define a new legal entity. One that must wear white hats and red gowns, and no shoes.
We have a well documented and accepted definition of life - sustained brain waves: when they cease you are dead.
This should define the start of life as well, which would be 15-20 weeks of gestation.
Logical, consistent, scientific.
There are more than 2 people IN THIS FUCKING THREAD arguing that a fetus isn't life you stupid fucking cunt. Seriously, do you ever bother reading those long strings of text just above the "reply" button when you're posting?
If you want to quibble, everything is technically alive. Grass, butterflies and any number of animals that are killed daily.
Life is sacred?
So men can fuck & bounce, but the female has to be a broodmare?
You may have noticed that the law tends to value *human* life rather more than grass and butterflies. Is a fetus grass, or a butterfly?
Is a zygote a person equivalent to a woman?
Sure is. It has every single distinguishing feature of an individual life that the woman possesses. If you were educated past the 4th grade you would be humiliated by your ignorance in even saying something this nonsensical and stupid.
I have no idea what the phrase "a person equivalent to a woman" is supposed to mean, and neither do you, mush-brain.
I guess you're one of those people who doesn't know what a woman is.
Your guesses are as accurate as one would expect from someone capable of writing the meaningless sentence you are now shown to be incapable of explaining.
bounce and add child support you mean?
Yeeeeeeeah, the whole "deadbeat dad" thing is self-defeating on two levels: for one, the entire force of the federal government will come down upon you as a man if you try to obtain employment when you have a child support obligation. For two, if the fetus is just a useless, non-differentiated clump of cells with no right to life, then the father should have no more obligation to care for it after its birth than the mother who is legally allowed to kill it with total and complete impunity any time from the morning after to when the head and shoulders are wriggling out of her cunt.
" because what is outside the power of the federal government is supposed to default to the right of individuals."
Or the States.
The idea here is that when a life is worthy of legal protection against destruction remains unclear.
Sure, sure... Because of course the 9th Amendment doesn't read...
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the PEOPLE.
It must mean
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the STATE.
What you're referencing is the 10th amendment, which states that POWERS not vested in the federal government are retained by THE STATES, or THE PEOPLE, respectively. This is why most "police powers" are left to the states. Murder somebody in downtown Tahoka Texas? Guess what? The feds won't charge you with murder. You haven't committed a federal crime.
The federal USC didn't legislate abortion...
WHY??????
Because "The People's" Supreme Law interpreted/enforced by the Supreme Court was held **OVER** their Federal POWERS... The Federal Government was required by the Supreme Court to LEAVE the subject of Pre-Viable Abortion to "THE PEOPLE" (not the State's either) as they also must adhere to the U.S. Constitutions Bill of Rights provisions. (I.e. Individual Rights/Liberty)...
It is entirely incorrect thinking to think of the Supreme Court as Federal Legislation. The Supreme Court works **AGAINST** Federal Powers for "The People" and Individual Liberty.
"Murder somebody in downtown Tahoka Texas? Guess what? The feds won't charge you with murder. You haven't committed a federal crime"
Actually, you might have. Not murder, but deprivation of rights. See Derek Chauvin (although he actually wasn't guilty, of course).
I would not allow abortion either, and favor it for totalitarian leftist cancer like ENB, but it is certainly homicide.
What I still haven't seen an answer to is how abortionists are different than hitmen, who perform the exact same service.
The best argument I've seen was someone here, years ago and forgive me for forgetting who made it, that the government shouldn't have jurisdiction within a woman's body. Thus what the woman does to her child before it's born isn't a justified matter of law. However, an abortionist clearly exists within government jurisdiction and so is reasonably subject to penalty for performing the procedure.
Abortifacents could be illegal, though I'd say the only requirement here would be to market the drug for some other ostensible purpose, with termination of pregnancy acknowledged as a side effect. Seems an easy workaround.
Or an even a better story is how Pro-Life is any different than totalitarians insisting that poor "baby" be locked up in someone else's womb....
FREE those ?babies?!!!
There really isn't any evidence that you've made it out of the womb yet
Touché
U2 summarized... [WE] bullies rule!!!!
I actually find personal attacks a good sign a point has been made.
So nobody is worthy of insult?
the government shouldn't have jurisdiction within a woman's body
This is a big part of my personal stance.
It's really the best argument.
It doesn't create inconsistencies with other laws, and it removes the scientific or moral debate from the legal debate.
Ironic thing is, if you're a Lefty you think government has jurisdiction over everything and anything in the universe.
Not necessarily restricted to lefties - note that one of the objections in the majority opinion is that notions of bodily autonomy might extend to unauthorized chemicals and unauthorized sex acts.
So they agree with you entirely, they just have a different opinion about which chemicals and sex acts are cool.
So they agree with you entirely, they just have a different opinion about which chemicals and sex acts are cool.
Um . . . what?
I mean I get that you get off on attributing things to people they didn't say and then wailing on them to make yourself feel smarter than you really are, but this one doesn't even make sense on any level.
What is it you think I'm saying that you think you're countering here?
Oops, really messed up that comment
*
"I would not [outlaw] abortion either" is what I meant to say
You say "Reason is being silly here." The Ninth Amendment states there are unenumerated rights not listed in the Constitution.
If you ask me, it's silly and foolish for libertarians to not defend all our Constitutionally granted freedoms, whether enumerated or not. BTW, there's a lot the Constitution doesn't mention, but since abortion is a commercial exchange, if it occurs across state lines the Constitution can regulate the inter-state commerce aspect of it, as an enumerated right specified in the Commerce Clause. Which will happen more now, but I recall (Alito or Roberts I think) said the ruling doesn't stop people from crossing state lines for an abortion, and States can't prohibit crossing state lines to obtain one.
IMHO, people should be at least able to state the position of the other side. Pro-choice folks say "My body, my choice" (a fair and libertarian principle), while Pro-life folks believe killing a fetus is murder. Personally I'm pro-choice because I can't see forcing women to carry babies to term that are the result of incest, rape, have serious health issues, or that threaten the health of the mother. But I'm also amenable to restrictions such as the abortion must be early in the pregnancy, and potentially counseling for the mother (or parents) about the long term consequences to them.
None of which justifies the claim that Roe discovered
a constitutional right. Roe and Casey took us well beyond the quickening in the common law and up to the moment of birth. States are now free to set their own standards and polling indicates that a majority favor restrictions after the 15th week. Looks like we're going back where we started from and it makes sense to me.
Soon, American women will be plunged into the depths of theocratic darkness that European women have lived under since about 1930.
You actually believe the gaslighting pro-choice folks? All of a sudden we're a theocratic state? What religion? I'd say securalism or the religion of government is winning. In which case, you're right!
We're returning the depths of darkness represented by more government power, for everyone not just women, and less individual freedom, overall with Biden in office. Except for abortion, an issue which has rightfully been returned to the states per the Constitution.
The conflict between the rights of the mother and the rights of the fetus will continue to exist. Some might make the argument, that a fetus resulting from rape, represents a fetus that is initiates harm to the mother after the rapist harms the mother by impregnating her against her will, that can only be remedied by an abortion. Others will argue the fetus isn't responsible and is an innocent being, and while sharing the DNA of the rapist and propagating it, this situation isn't an offense to the mother if it's allowed to live. I just can't imagine a mother looking at the face of the rapist and raising it as her son without bringing the rape to the front of her mind. That's psychological harm.
U have no idea what UR talking about..
Roe v Wade specifically granted State's the right to ban abortion post-viable.
Over-turning Roe v Wade had ZERO effect on anything but pre-viable (ie.. 'unicorn' imaginations)...
Feel like we read this and commented on this yesterday.
This is the
6th846th blog post Reason has posted about this, and they have become exceedingly efficient at it.*30 months of federal vaccine mandates, mask mandates, travel bans, lockdowns, house arrest, and literal fucking concentration camps*
Reason: I Sleep
*SCOTUS returns abortion policy to the states where it always should have been to begin with*
Reason: REAL SHIT NIGGA!!!!!!!!!!
"Here is my answer to the question: Founding era history strongly supports the view that abortion rights, at least during the early stages of pregnancy, do fall within the orbit of Madison's Ninth Amendment."
This is such an absurd parsing of words. There is one clear fact: The founders, the lawmakers who sent them to the Constitutional Convention, and many, many others absolutely regulated abortion. And the historical record shows that they considered abortion wrong as soon as you were killing another human life. Originally, this was when another could feel the baby kick. But more recently it was when the mother first felt the baby stirring in the womb.
Even the laws that Root quotes support this. They don't say "You are free to kill babies up until a point." No, what they say is "As soon as you know there is a baby there, it is wrong to kill it." That doesn't require an unenumerated right. It is freedom of bodily autonomy- for both a mother and the child.
So indeed, when you look at the actual progress of common law, what you see is that there was no "Unenumerated Right to Abortion". It is merely a judgement of when "Life" begins.
Let's note that this is now the 4th article that Root has flogged this point. Not once has Root dealt with this counter point or changed his argument to deal with the fact that criticism of this argument is all over the internet. All he does is repackage and requote the same Amicus Brief over and over again. This is the legal journalist's analog of a childish temper tantrum, screaming again and again how unfair the world is to him.
And for me it's never been a question about whether "abortion" is a right. The question is when does a fetus come into its rights. We acknowledge that smothering a 2-day-old infant is murder. Does it start at birth, or prior to birth? Considering anyone with any level of education knows that it's living for a long time prior to being born, there's reasons to probe where the baby's rights begin.
Your rights are always limited by the rights of others. So the question will always come down to choosing when the baby's rights can be recognized.
Um.... When it's not a 'piece' of someone else.... Support fetal ejection....
Oh but that's right 'Fetal Ejection' would not only be entirely sensible and but yet a body autonomy recognized right to medical services; it would also stomp the Pro-Life's [WE] mob Power in the dirt............
Sooooooooooooooooooooo............... EVERYONE IGNORE the option to Fetal Ejection.....
"And for me it's never been a question about whether "abortion" is a right. The question is when does a fetus come into its rights."
Right. That is my point.
Root's argument that there is some sort of "Unenumerated" right only holds water if there is some special unique right in play that other enumerated rights didn't already have.
This is simple. We have well expressed rights to Liberty and to Life. The laws of the period clarify at which point a child is being deprived of Life, meaning her right to Liberty is limited. You don't need to come up with other mystical rights for just the case of abortion. It's all you need right there, and consistent with the common law of the time.
Root's attempt to deflect and say, "No, there was actually this recognition that a mother could terminate a pregnancy even if it was killing a life" is just over-complicating what was happening- like the Catholic Church's absurd, overly complicated models purporting to show an Earth-centric universe, or a Humanity Studies Professor's attempts to show that hair cuts are a form of patriarchal slavery.
The question is when does a fetus come into its rights.
And the answer is that the fetus does not have the right to have the state seize control of the pregnant woman's body for the benefit of the fetus.
We have a well documented and accepted definition of life - sustained brain waves: when they cease you are dead.
This should define the start of life as well, which would be 15-20 weeks of gestation.
Logical, consistent, scientific.
Even the laws that Root quotes support this. They don't say "You are free to kill babies up until a point." No, what they say is "As soon as you know there is a baby there, it is wrong to kill it."
This is not quite right. The common law was clear that killing an unborn child was always wrong, and necessarily criminal. The question was - what evidence do you need, to prove that that is what has happened ? The quickening rule was an evidenciary rule, which established that aborting a child after quickening did as a matter of evidence, prove that a live child had been killed. Prior to quickening, you could not prove that the child was alive.
Except ...... if an abortion was performed and the child was born alive. If the child then died as a result of the abortion, the crime could be proved, because as a matter of evidence, "quickening" was not necessary. The fact of the child being delivered alive proved it was alive. Thus you could get a conviction for pre-quickening abortions, if the child was born alive.
Thus the quickening rule has nothing to do with any notion that killing a child before quickening is not wrong and not a crime. It is entirely to do with the evidence that is necessary to prove the crime. And the "live child" rule, which was sufficient evidence even without "quickening", proves that there was no "right" to abort a pre-quickening child.
It is analagous to how the law of murder used to be at some times and in some jurisdictions. You couldn't be convicted of murder without the evidence of a body (though you could be convicted of other related offenses.) This did not mean that the rule was that it wasn't a crime to kill someone, so long as you successfully disposed of the body. It just meant that the body of the deceased was required to prove murder.
"Let's note that this is now the 4th article that Root has flogged this point. Not once has Root dealt with this counter point or changed his argument to deal with the fact that criticism of this argument is all over the internet. All he does is repackage and requote the same Amicus Brief over and over again. This is the legal journalist's analog of a childish temper tantrum, screaming again and again how unfair the world is to him."
This is pretty consistent with other Reason editors. As far left progressives, they do not consider opposing views to be legitimate, so they don't engage them. Standard MO for progressives. IF they were actually Libertarians, I would expect a more open mind to both sides of the political spectrum. Obviously, that isn't what we see by most Reason editors.
Damon wrong!
9A: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
followed by
10A: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
No they got it right. There is nothing in the constitution that restricts the states ability to limit or not limit abortion.
If a state wanted to re-institute prohibition it could while drinking would remain legal in other states. Many localities do prohibit drinking .
But you could start an amendment establishing a federal right to abortion. It's been done with a lot of other things. States could also amend their constitutions to establish a right within that state.
Have at iot.
If there's an unenumerated right to abortion, is there a corresponding unenumerated right of the fetus to not be aborted?
Good point. For all the fist shaking about right the baby is most certainly a living being. Yea they'll scream zygote or clump of cells (which all of us are as adults even) but the baby transitions pretty quickly to a human with functioning organs after conception and then on to viability outside the womb.
No rights? In many states it still is a double murder if you kill a pregnant woman.
What "baby"? PROVE IT - Support "baby" ejection.
+ Is it some unknown right to FORCE a "baby" into a cell (womb) just big enough for it to exist in??? Set the "baby" free - slavers...
That doesn’t hold any water.
It sure doesn't hold any of that propaganda indoctrinated water that's for sure.
“propaganda indoctrinated water”
Please explain wtf this means.
No, but only because the right to life is actually enumerated.
Which Biden carefully left out in his speech today when talking about the rights now "under threat"
I doubt they prohibit drinking. At most, they probably prohibit the sale of alcoholic beverages.
Root's tears are yummy.
I'd just like to see Root at least TRY to grapple with the counter arguments-namely, the question of whether people have rights prior to birth. It seems that history does recognize that people have rights prior to birth, so the question is about when in the pregnancy is a fetus developed enough to claim those rights. And believe it or not, 17th-century legal decisions didn't apply a lot of scientific rigor on that question.
“For Alito and the many TEAM BE RULED who think like him, unenumerated constitutional rights are inherently suspect.”
Fixed that for you Damon. (Imagine thinking that this problem is contained to conservatives)
Ahahahahahahahahahaha………………. Haaaaasshahahahahahaha
I don't think any of it actually matters very much. The anti abortion crowd think this is a win, but is it? We live in an age of readily and moderately priced transport. Anyone who is mind made up on abortion can make it happen with a tank of gas and a Motel 6.
As an aside, with Biden's' war on American energy, Motel 6 can not afford to leave the light on for us anymore.
Correct.
But it causes leftists pain, so it's good.
That's not true. The states where abortion will remain legal do not have the facilities to pick up the demand from the Handmaid's Tale states.
they'll ramp up production [..destruction?] if there is a buck to be made....
ah, i mean, if it means helping those poor victims..
Perhaps, but if the medical regulators allow it, it will take time.
Walmart has a sale on coat hangers. If you were smart, you would buy all of them, then sell them to Planned Barrenhood. Its not like you or Planned Barrenhood care about life, so...look for the blue light special
Anyone who is mind made up on abortion can make it happen with a tank of gas and a Motel 6.
That's true in most places. It's probably the least true in TX.
If find it pretty common that one of the biggest things that people on the two sides of the Mississippi don't understand about one another has to do with the size of states.
If you grew up in coastal CA, and I imagine it would be the same growing up any significant distance into TX, this notion of "just pop over to another state" is a little foreign.
All of Mexico now has legal medical abortion care in clean hospitals not members of the Kleptocracy medical cartel. Doctors there light holy candles to little efficies of Gregg Babbitt. Oh, Canada has no abortion laws whatsoever, and physicians there also speak English and Cajun French. British Islands and Cuba are also easy to reach from no longer "former" Slave States. Send Naral a donation if you want to make room for the Libertarian Party.
There's also the 19th Amendment--the one that got rid of the 18th Amendment and limited the GOP to Father Coughlin, Bund and Silvershirt Nazi rallies for a quarter-century.
Damon, you leftist shitbag, the Ninth does not include the right to violate the rights of others.
You DO NOT have the right to force someone to work for you.
You DO NOT have the right to eliminate a person's capacity to expres THEIR rights.
And you CANNOT have a right to privacy for the purpose of doing the above.
What "others"?
Or on the flip side; Where's your right to FORCE this so called "others" be inside "others" bodies?? Doesn't that eliminate this "others" capacity to express their rights?
But your almighty 3rd party UN-related (and frankly none of ur F'En business) dictation I guess certainly has every 'right' to FORCE that "person" to keep that other "person" locked up inside....
Or on the flip side; Where's your right to FORCE this so called "others" be inside "others" bodies?? Doesn't that eliminate this "others" capacity to express their rights?
This is an interesting argument that's making me reconsider my position on this.
This "other" showed up, uninvited into my body. Therefore I can kill this other like I would any other intruder into my home.
It's not that we deny it's a person, it's that we accept it's a person, but an uninvited guest. A 'squatter' if you will.
Well played sir. Well, played.
The issue there is that the "other" wasn't uninvited, but arrived as the known result of voluntary action on the part of the person who now wishes to exterminate the "other".
Now, as I said above, I'm compelled by the argument that government doesn't have jurisdiction because the "other" exists entirely within the woman's body. So the woman who exterminates the "other" while it within her, before its been born and reached government jurisdiction, should face no legal punishment. But a doctor who performs an abortion on others is certainly within government jurisdiction, thus should face the same legal penalty a hitman hired to kill any adult would.
"voluntary action" --- Ya know like leaving the front door unlocked...
Anyone who leaves their front door unlocked and a bumb moves into their home; the home owner will be required by law to support that bumb until that bumb gets a job..... Because obviously; kicking the bumb out is MURDER!!!! /s
https://www.french-property.com/news/french_property/eviction_squatters_new_law
"All sex is rape"
-TJJ2000
"All unlocked doors are public domain"
-Nardz
You should give up on analogies.
No, but you also don’t get to shove a giant metal spike in his cranium and scramble up his brain before you evict him.
No, but if a trespasser continues to refuse to leave, at some point the police will shoot him.
Or the trespasser could just be removed from the property peacefully...
Support Fetal Ejection... End of Debate.
Because let's face it...
If you can't support Fetal Ejection ( The "baby" / unicorn theory )
You're supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction...
Interesting, but isn't the doctor an agent acting on behalf of the woman?
Yes, and this is really the essence of what you might call the pragmatic case for abortion rights - that if a woman has the right do it, and more importantly there is no pragmatic way to stop her, she should have the right to have a medical professional help her do it safely.
Good question. Were Robert Dear and the Army of God murdering doctors on behalf of the Prohibitionist Caucus of the Republican and George Wallace 'Murrican parties? There was a time when the Republican party wanted to stop the enslavement and rape of female "other persons." Now they have joined the Christianizers.
A hitman is also an agent acting on behalf of whoever hired him too.
We have 3 parties here:
A. Woman
B. Child
C. 3rd party contractor
B exists entirely within A, so I'm fine with considering that outside US or state jurisdiction for the purposes of whatever A does herself.
But once A involves C, C's actions bring the procedure into state or US jurisdiction.
Let's say A is suicidal. If A hangs herself, no crime. But if A hires C to kill her, C is still going to be held liable for murder.
Maybe it's the procedure rather than the result that can/should be outlawed. It's not like consent makes any experiment a doctor wants to perform legal even if the subject agrees to it.
You ask a legit question, and the answer depends on how many people are involved. Is it a medical decision between woman and doctor, or 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on who's for dinner?
Different states will provide different answers to that question now.
But once A involves C, C's actions bring the procedure into state or US jurisdiction.
But does this still hold if the fetus never leaves the womb alive?
Yes, because C exists entirely within US jurisdiction. At the point C acts upon B, C has brought B into that jurisdiction with him
Doesn't C have to enter jurisdiction A to act upon B?
Or maybe this entire discussion is irrelevant...
Just "ban" the "murder" part of fetal ejection....
See that wasn't so hard.
I find it humorous that Pro-Life has indoctrinated society so terribly that they seem to not even notice that "unborn baby" ejection doesn't automatically have to equate to "murdering babies"....
There is no jurisdiction A.
A exists within the jurisdiction of the state, as does C.
B exists within A, so B is out of contact with the external world.
C brings the outside world, the state's jurisdiction, with him into contact with B.
C is a killer-for-hire who profits by taking the lives of defenseless beings. C gets no legal protection.
To clarify:
There is no jurisdiction A.
While A and C exist within state jurisdiction, within A is jurisdiction-less space inhabited by B.
The intervention of C extends state jurisdiction into space that had no jurisdiction prior.
It's easier to draw the concept, but I'll try to describe it instead.
We have 3 parties (A, B, C) in 2 spaces/dimensions (X=outside A, Y=inside A).
A+C inhabit X
B inhabits Y
X and Y are separate, unconnected.
The State has jurisdiction in X, thus A and C are within jurisdiction of X, but that jurisdiction does not extend to Y as it is unconnected to X. There exists a barrier between X and Y.
C breaks the barrier bringing Y, and therefore B, into X when C performs the abortion and connects Y to X.
C cannot escape X because C is a subsection of X.
When C enters Y it establishes connection of B to X.
Also, the “other” is now residing in the physical compartment designed specifically for its residence.
Almost all the male/female sex organs are developmental mirrors of each other… except the uterus. It’s existence is specifically for housing a developing human and has absolutely no other purpose. It actually could be argued it belongs to the developing and unborn human and is their property.
I might be on board for hysterectomies as a byproduct of fetal eviction.
The history of biology has taught us to be cautious about declaring biological structures to have singular "purposes."
Dear Women... UR not a person... UR a "baby" incubator....
-CLM1227
The self-justification I find in comments of those trying to support the repeal of Roe v Wade gets more absurd by the day.
This "other" showed up, uninvited into my body. Therefore I can kill this other like I would any other intruder into my home.
Not quite. It's more like this.....
A partner and I kidnapped this "other" and then we went out of our way and enthusiastically and creatively, forced them into my body.
Because I have forced this other to be utterly and completely dependent on me I can kill this other because I claim they're an actual part of me and nothing more.
Fetal Ejection................ Anyone???????????
"It's not that we deny it's a person, it's that we accept it's a person, but an uninvited guest. A 'squatter' if you will."
There are two points here.
The first point, of course, is that the vast majority of Abortions are for cases where the child was put there through the consensual act of the mother. Maybe she didn't INTEND to get pregnant, but she willingly participated in the situation where there is now a child in her body. You don't get to put someone in your house and then kill them for trespass- especially if they are in a condition where they cannot actually vacate on their own.
The second point is that it is well recognized that if a person is trespassing without their knowledge, their life is not automatically forfeit. It is not the child's fault that they are in this position. They are there because of someone else's actions, and that does not give the mother the sudden right to kill the child.
Of course these are moral questions on the act of abortion. It is undeniably the case that it is morally wrong to kill a child. But there is also a moral question of how a state should be empowered to prevent these infringements on the rights of the child. I can believe that the level of government power necessary to prevent abortion would create a far worse world than one where individual women were killing babies.
The point here is that one can both agree that something is morally wrong, and that we don't want an all powerful state invested with the powers to stop that wrong.
Is it objectively or subjectively wrong? The entire function of government is to prohibit actions that are objectively immoral.
"The entire function of government is to prohibit actions that are objectively immoral."
Hmmm...where in the Declaration does it say that is the "entire" function of government?
I'll buy that it is *a* function of government to ensure that rights are not unjustly abridged. Of course, even though our government has always had that function, it (and no other government to my knowledge) has never been 100% effective at this. In fact, quite often we are willing to hamstring the government's ability to pursue justice and prevent injustice because giving it further powers would be a greater moral outrage. That's why we have the whole "fruit of the poisoned tree" stuff when talking about evidence. That's why we don't let the government compel you to testify against yourself in court.
"The entire function of government is to prohibit actions that are objectively immoral."
That is... a dangerous path to go down.
The point here is that one can both agree that something is morally wrong, and that we don't want an all powerful state invested with the powers to stop that wrong.
One can even go further and acknowledge that it is not a matter of universal agreement that it is morally wrong, which makes an even firmer case that the government needs to just stay out of it.
"One can even go further and acknowledge that it is not a matter of universal agreement that it is morally wrong, which makes an even firmer case that the government needs to just stay out of it."
No. Your moral confusion and unwillingness to think more than an inch deep on a subject is not the same as failing to reach universal agreement. In fact your attempts to do this are part of what has kept the country from achieving the same kind of peace on the subject that much of the rest of the developed world was capable of doing.
Your moral confusion and unwillingness to think more than an inch deep on a subject is not the same as failing to reach universal agreement.
Universal agreement except for me and all the other people who don't agree.
My opinion of you is dropping by the comment. You keep patting yourself on the back for being so willing to engage others, and then you act like a perfect dick when you meet an argument you can't counter.
We currently do force people to provide for others even when they do not wish to and have no reason to expect it. Men who are tricked into impregnating a woman are still on the hook for support, for instance.
But those men are not required to feed their blood to the baby.
But those men are required to feed their baby; they can't put in the basement until it starves to death, much less kill it.
The key word being "baby". Not blastocyst, zygote, embryo, or fetus.
Cute how Vernon loves using the analogy right up until he is out thought and then it is time to change the subject.
I'm using no "analogy". A mother or father with a baby in their care is a different situation than a woman with an unwanted pregnancy.
"We currently do" ..... a lot of things that are destroying Liberty.
The point; How FAST can we accelerate the flushing of the USA...
We're about to find out.
Attention Ammo Seeker Shoppers. prices have dropped for NATO 5.56.
People are going to start Civil War 2.0 because they can’t kill their crotch goblins?
Let's hope so
Not for that reason only, but sooner or later the last straw will be loaded on one side or the other.
We should stop doing that.
Or on the flip side; Where's your right to FORCE this so called "others" be inside "others" bodies??
I have no right to do that.
It is the parents who force the 'other' to be inside 'one of the parents bodies.
The law is only involved because no one has the right to kill someone because their existence is inconvenient.
Fetal Ejection................................
FREE the ?baby?.............. 🙂
It is the parents who force the 'other' to be inside 'one of the parents bodies.
And where was this "other" prior to being forced into this situation?
It doesn't matter. If you were forced to be inside someone's house, it doesn't matter if you were at the bar or in a river before hand. They put you there.
No, they didn't, because you weren't anywhere, Mister "My Thoughts Are As Deep As The Sea."
You know technically a fetus isn't "inside" the woman? You can reach up her vagina and touch a fetus. You can't with her heart. The heart is inside the fetus is external. It's actually an external parasite.
Don't try that argument at your rape trial.
lol... "I just bumped up against her externally, geez... And everyone thinks there is even such a thing as rape.... It's not my fault she has external access between her legs..." 🙂
' "When the United States was founded and for many subsequent decades, Americans relied on the English common law," explained an amicus brief filed in Dobbs by the American Historical Association and the Organization of American Historians.'
OK, then since everything we have learned since 1600, including biology, has no bearing, I hope Root sticks with leeches and healing vapors when he feels ill.
Right. Scientific knowledge has no relevance to a belief in human rights.
Free the human...... Fetal Ejection....
This is a pretty solid metal lyric.
Fetal Ejection as a band name?
Wooops... there went the Humus Septic. I lose more redneck christianofascists to this Mute Loser dingus. Must be government's fault for baiting goons with guns to threaten women with deadly force, ever since Teddy Roosevelt's "race suicide" letters invited them to public stonings. I'll bet the Afghani Beobachter website offers no such pagan feature. Public stonings are in their public announcements section... What was Teedy Rosenfeld's party, anyone recall?
Did you just have a stroke?
>>the constitutional right to abortion
it never was this. and your tears are delicious.
Just can't wait to start [WE] mob voting on what you are going to do or not do with your own body!!! Yeah!!! /s You people are completely sick in the head full of Power-Mad dictation.
fewer abortions is a win. idkwtf you're on about Power-Mad dictation but Roe and Casey were legal abominations and the babies of the world are much safer today. works for me.
Gov-Gun dictation of other people's own body autonomy works for you......... Yep; I could see that.... Exactly like mask mandates during COVID worked for EVERYONE yeah..... Say; How about mandated "get the shot" dictation... After all; It works for me... F Your belief you have any body autonomy..... WORKS FOR ME!!! /s
>>Gov-Gun dictation of other people's own body autonomy
it's not this. chickie can still drive to all the states where babies are slaughtered and have at it. any fewer dead babies is bueno.
So what did Pro-Life actually gain by overturning Roe v Wade?
Oh that's right; They overturned a precedence that People might actually own themselves (Individual Liberty) above and beyond State Dictation....
And don't kid yourselves.... Lefties (National Socialists) are going to use that against you for years and years and years to come. They'll talk about how YOU don't OWN YOU; [WE] OWN YOU! And ironically that door was opened even further by Pro-Life instead of Pro-Choice.
they overturned a living joke of jurisprudence ... somebody finally advocated for the babies.
Maybe someone was "advocat[ing] for the babies," but it wasn't the Supreme Court. Nor was advocating for the babies any part of the Supreme Court's job. Their job was to apply the constitution as written, by holding the Mississippi law up to the constitution and seeing if they conflicted, and that's what they did.
Those who want to advocate for the babies can do so in the state legislatures.
And those who want to advocate that they should be able to kill them can likewise do so through the legislature. Where it should have been happening all along.
That was the venue of choice for advocating for the Christianizing of "other persons" bred from African stock. Nothing like the lash, come-alongs, living on a peck of cracked corn a day and sweating in the cotton fields to imbue even the most pagan Angolan with a healthy fear of the Lawerd "Our" God, while whitey raped his daughter outside a quadroon ball.
They could do that before over-turning Roe v Wade....
Now they can save 'unicorns' they've imagined in their heads against other people's own will...
Because that's what Power-Mad people do... They use 'imaginary' excuses like 'weather changes' or 'feed the poor to save someone' or etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc.............. The excuses are endless and entirely B.S. What their hearts really desire is Gov-Gun Dictation over 'those' 'evil' people....
Pro-Life is EXACTLY the left in every mental sense.
>>but it wasn't the Supreme Court
it was the advocates advocating *before* the Supreme Court.
What "baby"??? You didn't "save" sh*t because you could make a "baby" magically appear before Roe v Wade...
All you did was use unicorns (mythical creatures) in your propaganda loaded sheeple head to stomp on other people's liberty...
If you don't support fetal ejection ( freeing the baby )...
UR supporting FORCED reproduction against people's will...
A "precedence" without any grounding in the constitution.
Humorously... Pro-Life's insanely fixation on 2-People is PERFECT grounding in the Constitution.
13th Amendment...
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
But of course no reasonable person actually believes that B.S. so Pro-Life plays the it's just pregnant women in one legal example and it's 2-People in others... Any B.S. twist of logic they can come up with to justify putting their Gov-Gun Authority into other people's personal lifes.
In other words, exactly what they've been doing for years and years and years. That "my body my choice" slogan sounded nice, but the left never believed it, and never applied it in any context other than abortion.
Nor did they really believe in their "follow the science" shtick
So Christian National Socialists are the New commies?
Yep apparently... But it seems (as this is like the 4th comment as such) that retaliation against lefties is one of the root causes for it.
So I wouldn't get to smug about it.
They overturned a willful repudiation of the 9th, thereby potentially expanding the rights of all of us.
Moron. This isn't about what you can and can't do with your body. It's about what your federal govt has a right to tell states what they can and cannot do. Stop being a retard.
It is exactly that... There was ZERO reason to overturn Roe v Wade except to allow State's to trample an Individual Liberty granted by the Supreme Court. How about U stop being a retard.
POOF! In 1973 the SCOTUS invents a new right that never existed before, and Federally protected abortion.
POOF! In 2022 the SCOTUS removes the right magically created by the 1973 court, thus returning the control of abortion to the States.
And the Court reaffirmed that the 2nd amendment is an individual right and of equal importance to the others rights.
Seems like our system is working as it should. I'm happy.
It's not, nowhere close, but these decisions are correct and the best that we can hope for in an irretrievably broken and corrupt system.
It's one part that still (partially) works.
It would not be surprising if Justice Amy C Barrett or her family were hurt after this decision, because that is all the Left knows to do: violence
POOF! The Supremacy and Uncle Long Dong declare the 13th and 14th Amendments unconstitutional, lynching relegalized, TU SWIVEY found hanging from tree in tar and feathers. POOF, Mute Loser Trumpanzee...
Note Hank’s responding to a post that didn’t include Trump, but still called him a trumpanzee. I think Hank might have some sort of disorder. (Not talking about drug use here)
And another magically created right, Gay marriage, could POOF!
I'm all for removing magic rights and returning power to the States.
Gotta LOOOOOOOOVVVVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEEEEE those Gov-Guns.
F*ck Individual Liberty................. /s
Have you ever thought of just shutting the fuck up about abortion instead of going full leftist?
Have you ever thought about supporting Individual Liberty even when your [WE] mob party doesn't???
Babies have individual liberty too.
Babies, yes. Blastocysts, no.
Then contact your state rep and let them know you don’t think abortion before the fifth day should be illegal.
Or keep crying. Matters not to me.
If you have any respect at all for Other People's PERSONAL Liberty you can easily come to the conclusion that Fetal Ejection shouldn't be "banned" by Gov-Guns. For such a thing would be FORCING other people to Reproduce against their will; treating them as your own "baby" incubator by poking GUNS in their faces.
What is a right to privacy anyways??? Having things PERSONAL be kept PERSONAL.. Exactly how is someone else's pregnancy any of YOUR business???? Is my wife's pregnancy YOUR 'unicorn' to save???
“For such a thing would be FORCING other people to Reproduce against their will;”
Still don’t know how the whole reproduction process begins, huh? It’s not my fault your father didn’t teach you about the birds and the bees.
Still don't know how the whole car accidents kill people huh? It's not my fault your father didn't teach you about high-speeds that kill.
Tyrant Dictator, "Ban those people driving cars from emergency services!!!" --- Make them face the consequences of choosing to drive high-speed vehicles...
Yeah; That is how absurd your reasoning is.
I’m perfectly aware how car accidents can kill people. That’s not the biological purpose of driving a car, or even a likely result though, so your analogy is stupid.
For your analogy to work, you’d have to be talking about people who cause car accidents on purpose causing deaths. Are you saying it should be legal to cause car accidents on purpose?
It’s still not my fault your father didn’t teach you about the birds and the bees.
The whole point of having a Bill of Rights and 14th Amendment is to place matters of basic human rights beyond the reach of the states and democracy.
And a massive difference between those two is that "marriage" is but a State *grant* of recognition instilled by a pick-n-choose tax-code. Unlike say; how women can get pregnant without a government blessing.
No, the point of the Bill of rights is to guarantee that the federal government, not the states, would not interfere in these rights. People seem to forget that it goes from the states, and then to the people. States can limit rights all they want.. at least they used to be able to. That's why they had their own Constitutions.
^That's good knowledge right there...
But that was changed by the Civil War and the end of slavery...
And the passing of the 13th & 14th Amendments.
And that's why we have the 14th Amendment—so that all Americans enjoy protection of their rights, regardless of how state government might want to infringe upon them.
No. Marriage is to be equally available to all, regardless of genitals. Not at all like abortion, it is well grounded in our laws.
I like how I can get through the Reason site in 20 seconds just by reading the headlines and the authors.
I usually just read the headlines and then go straight to the comments.
The quickening argument has always been retarded. It's not that everybody in the colonial era believed that infants before quickening had no moral value and should be killed with impunity, it's that it was difficult to know that somebody was pregnant before quickening. Sure there was pseudo-science (urine "tests" or augury) and simple wishful thinking either way, but it was impractical to demonstrate that a woman knew she was pregnant before then and that she was killing a child (rather than it being an accident).
Or just set the child FREE!! Support Fetal Ejection....
Heck; children are liable to suffocate in such a tight prison as someone else's body.
Congress could pass a law. We have a "remarkably stable consensus" on this, do we not? DO WE NOT?
The only thing worse than giving the power to the 'State' is giving the power to the 'US Congress'... But now that [WE] mob Power-Mad dictators have successfully REMOVED Individual Liberty; I'm sure those magical "democratic" powers will end up with who-ever has the bigger [WE] mob.
The left has effectively corrupted the 9th Amendment out of existence, but now they want to resurrect it solely to protect abortion?
No thanks. Live with the consequences.
Although retaliation isn't a path to a better society... I couldn't help but love that take...
Do clumps of cells have any unenumerated rights?
It doesn't matter if they do. The woman still owns her own body.
The woman still owns her own body.
And ONLY her own body.
She is not permitted to wantonly slaughter those who inconvenience her--particularly if she forced them to do so.
Fetal Ejection??????????????? Anyone???????????
Irrelevant because when it occurs it does not prove or disprove someone is alive or dead.
lmao...... So dead people get rights too now??????????
Oh yeah.......... That's been the argument all along hasn't it.....
How already dead unicorns (because obviously they aren't life sustaining) gets to enslave living people...
Dawn of the Death anyone??? 🙂
Please take your meds.
She didn't force anyone to do anything.
So the fetus just magically appeared in the uterus?
I guess you slept through 7th grade health class.
We are all clumps of cells when you come down to it.
If you want to really get deep we're nothing but perturbations in the quantum fields.
And most of them aren't human.
But we aren't all 'pieces' of someone else...
I have a car for sale $20.....
Oh thanks for the $20; here's your tire.....
What do you mean a tire isn't a car!!!! It most definitely has 'potential' to be a car; thus it is a car!!!.. Don't accuse me of pretending a tire isn't a car; It is, It is, It is --- see my "facts" 🙂
Or how about I have an apple for sale $0.50....
Oh thanks for the $0.50; here's your seed...
What do you mean a seed isn't an apple!!!! It most definitely has 'potential' to be an apple; thus it is an apple!!!... Don't accuse me of pretending a seed isn't an apple; It is, It is, It is --- see my "facts" 🙂
Buyer; It's not a 'car' or 'apple' right now!!! But It is, it is...... /s
9th Amendment was interesting. I don't know enough about it though. I kind of fear that 14th Amendment and incorporation that the 9th Amendment could allow for a federal judiciary to control states arbitrarily by asserting unenumerated rights and then incorporating them against the states. I don't know enough about it though or know the arguments about it. That's a quick thought.
“What that means for the legal debate over abortion is that any purported originalist must face the question of whether abortion rights may be considered to be among the unenumerated rights "retained by the people" that Madison's Ninth Amendment was specifically written and ratified to protect. Alito's opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization entirely fails to grapple with this necessary question.“
But Alito does grapple with your question-as do originalists. He expressly notes that those ( unenumerated) rights must be “deeply rooted...in (our) history or tradition and implicit in...ordered liberty.”
Sorry, abortion does not rise to that standard.
Does owning one's self?
Owning one’s self vis-a-vis abortion ( suicide, etc.) is necessarily tethered to liberty interests from a constitutional ( SCOTUS) standpoint. Those liberty interests find their weight-and ability to be regulated-based on the “deeply rooted...ordered liberty” metrics.
Unless you can establish that abortion satisfies the metrics, the “it’s my body “ premise alone won’t get you too far.
"won’t get you too far" --- And perhaps that general consensus is what I have a problem with... How much Individual Liberty can there ever be when one's self isn't even recognized as their own property? Did slaves have Individual Liberty? Apparently they were not property of themselves. But of course there were excuses.... Endless, endless, endless excuses... Heck maybe someone 'PAID' for that slave. Doesn't there invested interest qualify them OWNERSHIP over someone else's body????
If a fetus is given a proprietary right to the use of the uterus it in fact enslaves the woman to the fetus.
We've seen here that that is too obvious for many to see.
Nope, because "one's self" is not an object of ownership.
Huh? A person is definitely an object.
Id so, Jacobson v Massachussets was wrongly decided.
The problem with the 9th amendment is, what authority can you turn to for what rights the people had, and therefore retain? So here you turn to Blackstone, and if you can find a right there, that's damn good authority that would've been recognized at that time. But I don't really see a right of abortion in this explanation in Blackstone of what abortion is. That is, Blackstone wrote about a prohibition on aborting a pregnancy, which can be shown to have occurred by the previous quickening of a fetus. But that says nothing about the status of any pregnancy which is undetectable by that means. As far as the law considered it at that time, nothing that was done before that could produce an abortion. Abortion then was simply nonexistent, so there could not have been a right to perform one.
It's like reading into Blackstone rights to automobile repair. So the only hope would be subsuming auto repair as part of a more general right the people had at that time. If you can find in Blackstone or other literature describing ancient rights to do things that could be understood to be of a broad class of actions that would include terminating pregnancies pre-quickening, then you've got something.
that's a lot of words to say nothing
I agree. I think the problem with the 9th Amendment argument and recourse to what the common law prohibited at the time of the founding is that it assumes that anything that was not prohibited was not prohibited because of an understanding that it was beyond the power of the state/Crown to do so. But there are a lot of things that are illegal today that did not violate the common law. That doesn't prove (or even imply) that there is a 9th Amendment violation when the modern statutes are enforced.
^ disagree. You have every right and freedom not explicitly deprecated by the powers granted to govt in the constitution.
Nearly every law on the books is a violation of your constitutional rights.
You think ancient people didn't induce abortions? That's not true. At all.
Alito's opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization entirely fails to grapple with this necessary question.
It's hard to see how this sentence could have been written by someone who actually read the opinion.
No, the 9th Amendment doesn’t empower justices to make up new constitutional language based on their personal preferences.
Pass an amendment if you want new constitutional language. It’s the only honest approach.
lol.... Let us all take the authoritarian view of the Constitution as far as it can possibly go....
You know what else is a "made up" constitutional language of ( I wouldn't say personal preference; I'd say Constitutional Intent ) is ANY right to privacy at all....
That's right folks... State police can tear down your doors, enter your bathroom while your taking a shower, lock you up for watching R-rated movies because there isn't a SINGLE Constitutional Individual Right granted that forbids it....
Sometimes the pursuit of Individual Liberty and Justice for all means the summation of implied intents of many amendments.
https://constitution.laws.com/right-to-privacy
That an unenumerated right was discovered in 1973, around 185 years after the adoption of the Constitution, by very dubious legal reasoning, makes it suspect Mr. Root.
It is a very odd argument to say that the old standard of quickening meant that there was a common law right to abortion, and then say that the law did not even consider such cases abortions. That implies that the common law allowed that anything considered an abortion under its standards to be outlawed, not that there was a right.
Furthermore, the quickening standard does not support the Roe/Casey regime as it stood. For abortion rights advocates who say that Roe/Casey does not allow a ban after 20 weeks to try to shelter under the quickening standard is absurd.
The problem with advocating for unenumerated rights is proving what you want is actually a right. That means coming up with a convincing argument why such a right exists. Screaming 9th Amendment is not a convincing argument.
Damon Root has the reasoning skills of a child apparently. It's an absurd claim.
It does call into question his ability to develop a cogent principled argument. I have less respect for him after these last couple of posts.
"The *only* Individual rights you people have is specifically listed in the bill of rights..", signed Truthteller1 & Mickey Rat......
It floors me how people can turn full-on dictators with just the flip of a coin. And it shows in this Nazi-Addled Nations politics.
The fundamental legal problem with Root's analysis is the assumption that every right secured against the Federal Government by the 9th Amendment was incorporated against the states by the 14th.
Those that fought hardest for the ninth amendment were worried about the Federal Government superseding states rights. Back then, States were the supreme authority, and this 'Federal Government' -- a necessary evil for national defense and interstate commerce, etc -- had to have its power checked if these States were going to remain free. Sadly, we're living in their worst fear -- a nation where Federal agents can murder with impunity!
Apparently those that fought hardest for the 9th Amendment made a typo when they put "retained by the people." when all along they meant "retained by the State."
What a load of horsesh*t you guys peddle.
A better word than "typo" would be 'synonym'. Perhaps I could have chosen a better word than "State"; commonwealth perhaps. It's not like it was anarchy in the 'colonies' before we had a Federal Government. There were always laws and rules governing everyday affairs, the question was where were they going to be mostly made in DC by bureaucrats or locally e.g. state and/or local government. The United States Federal Government was not meant to be in our daily lives as much as it currently is.
P.S. You don't have to use the asterisk in horseshit -- no trigger warnings either -- we're big boys here.
lol... "People" is a synonym for "State Government"???
Is that not just a declaration that people are but property of the State... for the "commonwealth".... lol....
Commie Gov-Guns shall not be denied! Ever think that not having "law and rules" in PERSONAL affairs might be the very corner stone of Individual Liberty? Or did everyone in the USA forget the USA was founded on Individual Liberty and Justice for all??
Yes! 'The people' and 'the commonwealth' are synonyms. Again, are you talking about anarchy? Even Henry David Thoreau didn't advocate for anarchy.
"I heartily accept the motto, 'That government is best which governs least.'" "To speak practically and as a citizen, unlike those who call themselves no-government men, I ask for, not at once no government, but at once a better government. Let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect, and that will be one step toward obtaining it."
-Henry David Thoreau
Do you even live in the USA??
"Let every man make known what kind of government would ?command? his respect" is pure unlimited democracy that has ZERO respect for Individual Liberty nor Individual Justice.
I've been noticing this a lot lately. People insisting the USA is an unlimited democracy (I.e. The biggest [WE] mob rules!) is that what they're teaching in commie-schools these days?
The USA is a CONSTITUTIONAL Union of Republican States.
All this ruling says is that the federal constitution has nothing to say over abortion. It does not outlaw abortion. It just does not prevent the states from regulating abortion.
Correct.. It also instills the premise that the U.S. Constitution doesn't grant any right to the people not specifically spelled out to a T..... A very dangerous and contrary to the stated purpose premise of this nation..
Essentially making the 10th Amendment read; The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states .............. and just chopping off................. "or to the people."
The last time this narrative was played out; we had civil war.
"The last time this narrative was played out; we had civil war."
In terms of narratives, all the civil war did was shut the South up. The question of states rights has continued ever since -- ebbing and flowing. It's just that the victorious North saw eye to eye on a lot of issues. Today it's just as fractured, take sanctuary cities, gun rights or legalized marijuana as examples.
Twerent about state rights or there wouldnt have been fugitive slave act in which states rights were subjugated to the federal govt on behalf of other states.
States rights canard was just a bullshit talking point because "we can't live without or slaves or side by side with those niggers" isn't intellectually solid.
The FSA, Dread Scott, the Civil War and reconstruction were the beginning of the end for the 9th and 10th.
Ahh but you see, the fascists here are thrilled. They don't give a shit about the constitution except to use it as force against the people and things they dislike.
Roe was a bad decision, never founded in the text of the Constitution, just in the imagination of a Justice trying to get to a preferred result.
A preferred result that people might actually own themselves....
Maybe learn what a fascist is, moron.
Nazis believed in abortion. They used it to get rid of undesirables. It is not "fascist" to consider the original Roe ruling to be deeply flawed Constitution-wise. The tyrannical court at the time decided to create, out of whole cloth, the concept of substantive due process by which they could LEGISLATE whichever rights into being as they wished, anti-democratically.
Returning this usurped power to the states is the essence of a democratic republic.
It's fun- this same court can say it's not a right but also hold that any swinging dick is any form of "well regulated militia."
Well regulated meant properly functioning not controlled by regulations.
No it didn't. Read the ducking constitution where the discipline, training, Funding, and calling up are delineated.
Militia clearly and unambiguously refers to all able bodied men of fighting age, and well regulated refers to "bring a gun and knife and a bedroll when you come, and know how to use them". Just because you don't have that process today doesn't mean that everyone in the 1700s didn't understand exactly what it meant.
Read the constitution. You're wrong.
That isn't even a little bit defensible. If they meant "guns are only for the military and the state", that is what they would have written.
The language is unambiguous. "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Even if you disagree with the "why" portion of the sentence, the imperative declaration remains. What to do about it is not debateable..debatable... it says "the people" can keep and bear arms without being infringed.
Making up new interpretations of militia and regulated do not impact this statement at all.
Damn you’re bad at this.
Ah, i see you went to the same public school that Tony did. Maybe learn what a prefatory clause is, then sit down and shut the fuck up.
The 9th???
Are you high?
Are you saying that anything which was legal under common law at the time of the founding is a right and can never be prohibited? Because that sounds like a profoundly stupid argument that you'd only make if you were trying really hard to justify something and didn't have any actual *good* arguments.
I mean, it was also legal under common law to beat your children back then. Using this argument, doesn't that mean there's a right to beat your children that exists to this day?
How do you define "beat"?
At the time "beat" would likely have encompassed most anything short of breaking bones or causing death.
Yes, well reason. Another way to describe Roe v Wade is that it was activist against women in that it conferred "personhood" on a fetus, which was not in the declaration or the US Const which used "Persons." Prior to Roe, a fetus could have no constitutional rights as it was not a Person. However, the Roe court was wise enough to go the "historical precedent route" (to which Judge Michael Luttig recently alluded in another context). A strict constructionist could have said that a fetus is not a person and hence a woman may do whatever she pleases. Roe, however, took the wise path.
Uh Roe specifically says a fetus is NOT a person in regard to the 14th amendment.
Yes; Roe v Wade is very very Pro-Life... It was written by a Republican Supreme Court....
I find it humorous that Pro-Life and Republicans today are wildly against their own winning....
Just goes to prove there is no 'end' to the thirst of MORE Gov-Gun Authority over 'those' icky people. We've seen this mentality in history develop time and time again and it doesn't end pretty and without regrets.
I'm just gonna keep saying this till you dummies get it: you wanted your right wing judges, now they're going full fascist. lie in your fucking bed.
Trump certainly never made any pretense of being a big fan of Constitutionally protected rights. The problem is that the other major party isn't either.
Fascism as defined by the left - in a country of 325 million, it's fascist to prohibit a majority of 9 from deciding if a woman can or can't have an abortion and allow 160 million individual voters the right to decide the issue in each of the 50 States, through their democratically elected representatives; or, if 2/3rds agree, to impose a national solution by way of Constitutional Amendment as was the case with Slavery and Woman's right to vote. They think that's fascism. You can't make this shit up - they are truly psychotic and unable to think or reason individuals. Evil is how the Bible would put it.
The whole point of having a Bill of Rights and a 14th Amendment is to place our rights beyond the reach of legislators and democracy.
You want abortion in the bill of rights, write and pass an amendment putting it there.
9th Amendment
Please, make that argument.
But make it in a way that only includes abortion and not every other medical procedure.
Or prostitution.
Or drugs and alcohol.
I cannot see any way to so arbitrarily restrict such a notion to abortion based entirely on "well, that is private".
Or pederasty. Or animal abuse. Or revenge porn.
And all be darn if y'all didn't just list the TOP reasons this Nation is starting to suck... Alcohol prohibition winner or looser? Prostitution prohibition winner or looser? Animal rights winner or looser?
All Power-Mad [WE] mobs using B.S. excuses to grow the Gov-Gun Authority in people's lives and stifle Individual Liberty.
You seem very upset by the fact that you having a sexual relationship with a prepubescent child, a relationship that possibly revolves around torturing kittens, is not your inherent right.
Right; because obviously the problem with this Nation is it doesn't have enough Government...
I have this inkling that Reason would be fine and dandy with states allowing undocumented aliens to vote or receive federal welfare, even though not a thing in the constitution permits that. Arguments in favor of open borders is based on morality, not rule of law or even logic.
In the end, there is no such thing as a purely logical individual or discourse. Where does the constitution grant rights to foreign nationals to bypass federal protocol to establish residency here? Nowhere. Is it logical to strip police officers of liability, and yet grant that to private businesses out of fear of unintended consequences?
Damon,
Yes, but which rights were incorporated by the 14th amendment?
The court today repeats the notion that only fundamental, longstanding rights are incorporated by the 14th. Over time that has come to include much of the Bill of Rights, though early proponents did not view the doctrine as even that expansive.
So the 13th really allows True Christians™ to still enslave women, kinda like conscripts in the Republican War on Race Suicide?
That was... Something.
Root's argument might have some validity had the authors if Roe had cited the right as resting within the 9th amendment.
That they did not tending to make his assertions something of an ass pull.
Roe cited Griswold which cited the 9th and 14th in finding a right to privacy.
Today's Dobbs decision simply brings the rights back to the people of the state through their state legislature, not a weak construct of the Federal Government. Even the author of RvW admitted it was a weak ruling:
"“One of the worst mistakes in the court’s history or one of its great decisions.”
That's how Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun, who was also a former Mayo Clinic attorney and former director of Methodist Hospital, described the controversial 1973 Roe v. Wade decision a year after he wrote it."
Rights are not meant to be subject to the vote of religious fanatics.
Rights are not meant to be subject to a vote, period.
Ah yes, like the 21st Amendment made sure all states would shoot, jail, rob and murder beer dealers throughout Herbert Hoover's second, third and fourth terms. This lynching of women voters ought to prove the best thing since the Jones Five and Ten Law for getting rid of Klan, Nazi, Fascist and Prohibition parties. Let women voters appreciate Ayn Rand's opposition to Ronald Reagan and George Wallace.
"not a weak construct of the Federal Government"
Hey lookie.... Another ignoramus who hasn't figured out yet that the Judiciary branch is there to CURB the Government (works for the people's Supreme Law over government authority) instead of it working for legislation.
I thought the whole (Not Federal Authority, Nor State Authoirty) Individual Right to Pre-Viable Abortion might clue a few on how the branches of government work.
Had Roe been based on the 9th amendment it would have definitely been stronger but instead they pulled a rabbit out of the 14th with a little magic hand waving.
Of course no court in the drug war era would ever use the 9th for anything other than bird cage lining.
No, Roe cited Griswold which found a right to privacy in the 9th.
Yes it does in a contorted concurrence by Justice Stewart who twists it into a 14th argument.
"Yet, the Connecticut law did not violate any provision of the Bill of Rights, nor any other specific provision of the Constitution. So it was clear to me then, and it is equally clear to me now, that the Griswold decision can be rationally understood only as a holding that the Connecticut statute substantively invaded the 'liberty' that is protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. As so understood, Griswold stands as one in a long line of pre-Skrupa cases decided under the doctrine of substantive due process, and I now accept it as such."
THANK your local looter Kleptocracy party and support NARAL. They are ace snipers at detecting and eliminating nazi politicians one by one, kinda like Hannie Schaft and her sister. The LP needs a Freddie Oversteegen and Hannie Schaft Caucus. Austria rejected the Anschluss right after the unconditional surrender. Oh, ask a Dem or GOP brainwashee what caused the 1929 Crash and Great Depression...
The problem with Roe and the 9th Amendment is that if one accepted Roe as outlining a Constitutional Right, it implies that the Supreme Court can make anything it desires a Constitutional Right. Indeed, the Warren Court was doing that right and left. But that is not a democracy, it is rule by a Court.
Instead, Madison needed to include some procedure by which one can recognize an unenumerated Right. He didn't. So we need to figure out some such process. We haven't.
I am therefore, a Scalia textualist. Show me what is written.
Somebody show the Christian National Socialist the 13th Amendment.
"But the 13th Amendment never *specifically* said pregnant women couldn't be put into involuntary servitude by unicorns and [WE] mob banning all other available options to avoid it.... You want to change it write an amendment....",, will be there answer....
It so funny to be agreeing with you Hank... I usually despise the crap out of your thoughts... But that's true about the 'abortion' take. It's the only subject where the left wants LIMITED government and the right wants MORE government.
Should Reason really be opining on abortion when it was absent the past two years during the pandemic? This is the reason the libertarian movement is dead. They are becoming like the ACLU. Let concerned with civil liberties, and more concerned about party politics.
Ah, now Reason subscribers can clearly see why the National Socialist half of the looter Kleptocracy was so eager to will pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the initiation of deadly force create a smaller, harder, angrier Tea-totalitarian Party and erase from all LP history the plank which read “We further support the repeal of all laws restricting voluntary birth control or voluntary termination of pregnancies during their first hundred days.” Nice work, Jeremy, Boothead, Knapp and Tokyo Pink.
Once again almost everyone on this board reveals themselves as right wing MAGA freaks, not libertarians. Enemies of the 1st Amendment in Florida and now of the 9tn and any right to privacy found therein. Thomas has already announced that's the next target.
Of course the court is illegitimate, having 2 seats stolen from popularly elected democratic presidents in the GOPs court packing scheme. Having the GOP minority in the bedrooms of Americans is just fine with this group of creeps, as is the idea of state legislatures canceling the rights of women because of their religious beliefs. 6 Catholics dictating this cap just underlines the idiocy.
You're ignoring that a person can be a libertarian without believing that the written constitution enshrines our personal libertarian beliefs as the law of the land.
They'll all be gone in a week, just like the Tea-party imitators trying to convince voters libertarians are girl-bullying race-suicide rapists like them. The grey rectangles will be gone with them.
Wow are you an idiot.
You know what's even more "not libertarians" than right-wing MAGA freaks??? Democrats................ Every single one of them by a long stretch.
May Long Dong Silver, Palito Flaco, "Blackface" Gorsuch and Dickless all wake up feeling exactly like John Wayne Bobbitt.
What the Roe Court did was create a newly enumerated Federal Power which is not its place.Unenumerated rights, are not within the The Tenth Amendment clearly leaves this in the hands of the States, or to the People.
What the Roe Court did was create a newly enumerated Federal Power which is not its place.
Unenumerated rights, are not within the power of the Federal Government to regulate. The Tenth Amendment clearly leaves this in the hands of the States, or to the People.
Beta Version of MacOS screwed me.
No, it cited Griswold which found a right to privacy in the 9th. That is next on the block according to Thomas. These are the kind of religious fanatics the GOP has packed the court with.
It simply means, as the very f'ing document that your referencing states, that those decisions are left to the states OR the people. He means the Supreme Court has NOTHING to say about it, you dolt.
He means the Supreme Court has NOTHING to say about it...
Another one who can't differentiate between an entity meant to uphold the Supreme Law of the Land OVER governments authority and governments themselves.
OR the people --- Is what Roe v Wade instilled...
now it's
The State Gov-Gun Forces.
Liberty lost; State's gained MORE government power over people.
And one of my BIGGEST concerns about all this is we all know where those State Gov-Gun Authorities eventually ends up don't we.....
Usurped by National Gov-Guns "democratically" and UN-Constitutionally. Why one could almost predict that in another 30-years the federal government will have full dictative Gov-Gun authority over any person 'pregnant' because State's were just granted that power. Which power have State's been granted exclusively that the feds didn't eventually take-over????
Roe cited Griswold which found an unenumerated right to privacy in the 9th. You don't agree we should have that? Thomas doesn't and said they're next.
Whether we have it or not has NOTHING to do with the supreme court!! That's the point.
It HAS EVERYTHING to do with the Supreme Court which uphold the Supreme Law of the Land ( The U.S. Constitution ) OVER the Government....
Holy crap... If there is no enforcement entity for the U.S. Constitution then what ground does it stand on???? It's just a piece of paper and generally that's how much respect it gets but at least we have a Supreme Court we can pretend upholds "The People's" law over ever-growing Gov-Gun Power...
The enforcement entity for the US constitution is The People.
The Supreme Court's job is interpretation, not execution.
Your concept of government prioritizes central planning and authoritarianism.
"The People" who wrote the U.S. Constitution are all dead so I'm not sure how they're going to 'enforce' it. Are you trying to pretend that today's people "democratically" enforce the US Constitution? As-in put it to a [WE] mob rules majority vote on if the dead-mans law gets upheld?
If only the author had read just one more amendment, this decision would make much more sense to him.
Rights in the 9th are not subject to the 10th.
I think that would be correctly stated as government doesn't "Grant" people their rights; but instead they are inherent.
This analysis is fine as far as it goes, but you just gloss over whether there actually is an unenumerated right to abortion, and if so, why.
Right to privacy. See Griswold
As many have noted, the author’s argument is illogical and inconsistent. He argues that a woman had the right to destroy a child of which she was unaware. The quickening was the first definitive evidence of pregnancy in colonial times as recognized by common law.
The actual history argues for the opposite conclusion than what the author proposed. This history shows that for hundreds of years the legal standard is that society has the duty to protect any unborn child that they are aware exists.
More to the point, the quickening was the first proof the HUSBAND had of a pregnancy, so, at that point, he needed the right to forbid the woman from terminating the pregnancy.
lol... what "children"???
You people and your unicorns in other people's bodies.
I finally get the tin-foil hat joke...
"entirely fails to grapple with this necessary question."
Um, no, it doesn't. It addresses it directly, including the ludicrous claim that early term abortion was never criminalized, or it was somehow protected at common law.
If the stars insist on being in on these decisions with women they need to take responsibility for the child and its upbringing or they are just deadbeat dads.
States not stars
This is really a stupid take.
Agreed. Reproductive decisions should be entirely up to the woman, and the state should have no responsibility for the child. Nor should the father be held responsible for supporting the child unless he is married to the woman or has agreed to that prior to the pregnancy.
Nice try and sorry to hear about your problems with your ex-wife.
^Yes; This... That is the Individual Liberty the founders spoke of...
This whole "enslave" this person to "save" that person has been a curse through and through. After all; The Jews were enslaved by the Nazi's to keep Germany from economical collapse. Sadly; I see that playing out here in the USA way too clearly..
ALITO: The Court’s decisions have held that the Due Process Clause protects two categories of substantive rights—those rights guaranteed by the first eight Amendments to the Constitution and those rights deemed fundamental that are not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. In deciding whether a right falls into either of these categories, the question is whether the right is “deeply rooted in [our] history and tradition” and whether it is essential to this Nation’s “scheme of ordered liberty.”
Alito then lays down his case and concludes (long read) that the right to abortion was not part of our "history and tradition" and "ordered liberty" up to the day that the Roe v Wade was rendered. Therefore, the 9th and 14th do not apply. Game over.
Which is why some more ordered reading of the law is needed.
There are many questions that precede the abortion question, chief among these is personhood.
Leaving that aside, the power in question is the power of the states to regulate healthcare. Not being among the enumerated powers of the federal government, nor an act of interstate commerce, it would seem that healthcare falls to the states to regulate. Which we half follow and half don't follow.
Then you have to ask, per the 9th plus 14th argument above, does the state have the right to regulate things that the feds cannot. I.e., does the 14th completely obliterate state constitutions? We pretend it doesn't in almost every case.. so let's continue.
Now you have a simple question... Can the state regulate gynecological procedures. Well, they already regulate DNC, which is a normal procedure as well as a method of abortion. It is currently a legal procedure, but nobody would claim that states cannot regulate it.
So, on the medical side, this "right to privacy" angle is not respected in any situation other than narrowly targeted reproductive issues. How can the 9th guarantee that the state cannot regulate a dilation and curettage while a fetus is present in the uterus, but it can regulate happy endings? This interpretation of the 9th is incoherent.
So, if we are to have any sort of coherent law on the matter, either all healthcare (at a minimum) is unregulatable due to privacy, or all healthcare is regulatable.
Which leads us back to the prior question... Is the presence of a fetus a legitimate concern for the state? For many purposes we pretend it is. But not for abortion.
So... It is all back to the question of the value of a fetus to the state and society. Which in turn means it is all down to personhood.
And good luck locking that argument down.
Alito's crackpot "history" is thoroughly debunked by a friend of the court brief submitted by the American Historical Association. Alito strive mightily to justify and impose his radical religious ideas on the nation
.
6 Catholics, my ass!
The link
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/19/19-1392/192957/20210920133840569_19-1392%20bsac%20Historians.pdf
The first US anti-abortion laws were early "progressive era" stuff, lobbied for by feminists because the procedure was unsafe and women were being forced to have abortions by husbands or lovers who didn't want kids (or more kids).
It wasn't until Roe looked like an opportunity to pull (often otherwise progressive) Catholics to the right in a "moral majority" coalition that evangelical Christian sects suddenly decided they weren't pro-choice after all.
Excellent points, even though our understanding of fetal viability has grown more medically precise the principle of that understanding guiding our acknowledging that two humans are involved at some point is sound. Too bad Roe didn’t point to the 9th amendment but the penumbra of the shadow of the Fourth. Bad decisions beget more bad decisions.
This article is an insult to James Madison and the 8th Amendment.
You're so right!
Reason has officially become one of the dumbest publications ever. The Constitution was only ever conceived to put constraints on the federal govt. It dictated what they could do, the main body, and what they couldn't do, the bill of rights. James Madison was right, their are plenty of rights not listed that the FEDERAL govt has no business interfering in. And abortion may be one of those, if you believe the unborn are simply garbage to be tossed away on a whim (as this tag Reason clearly does). That never prevented the states from passing laws to restrict whatever they wanted. It wasn't til later in our history that the bill of rights someone got screwed up with the states. But all Reason is suggesting here is the we should just abolish states and have one giant federal government that runs roughshod over the citizens. Congratulations, Reason, for pushing tyranny so brilliantly.
Root is correct about the 9th Amendment, but incorrect about the Supreme Court ruling in Dobbs. Dobbs does not make abortion illegal, it leaves that decision to the states. Root's arguments about "quickening" are interesting but misses the point about when life begins, and what that meant before ultrasound and medical advances provided a better picture of fetal development.
Guess I need the right to kill the unborn in our Constitution pointed out to me. Can't find it.
Yeah dude... Guess I need the right to tear down your unbuilt house too man....... /s Omg... stop with the idiocy already.
Support Fetal Ejection ---- Problem solved.
Had an amicus brief been presented and that had been the main thrust of the argument it might, heavy on the word might, have succeeded. Instead it became a battle of women's rights, stare decisus, and ignored the basic history of the Constitution and the States that existed before it. More's the pity.
We will now get to see if DeSantis has the foresight to keep it for the first 15 weeks, or go whole hog, as it where.
Roe was never codified even though the demo-rat cowards had close to fifty years to do it. The rat pack dims from the left never put it into law because they knew if they did they would lose elections for decades. They relied on a flawed court ruling that everyone knew was impossible to defend in the future. I am surprised it lasted this long.
As Ruth Ginsberg said. "There's a fatal flaw in Roe v. Wade." She was right. Now the states can deal with it as it as it should be.
You misunderstand what RBG was saying about Roe and abortion and 'states rights' and Alito was deceitful in invoking her position. According to RBG, the fatal flaw in the Roe decision was the lack of legal reasoning based on equal protection - in her words during her confirmation hearing if you subject a woman to disadvantageous treatment on the basis of her pregnant status, you would be denying her equal treatment under the law. Roe was more about doctors being free to practice their profession as it was about women having the right to decide what to do with their life.
The abortion case she would have preferred to decide re abortion was Struck v Secy of Defense not Roe v Wade.
I don't find an Individual Right to take ownership of ones self a flawed court ruling.. In fact; I find it's discovery one of the very corner stones of Individual Liberty.
The ninth amendment says the FEDERAL government may not ban abortion. The control of this right is left to the people and the states. That is exactly what the current decision does.
See the 14th Amendment. Or ask your Government teacher to explain it to you.
> "DAMON ROOT is a senior editor at Reason"
Really? How did that happen? No wonder I am not drawn to Reason as I was in the past.
Root fails to include the context of the 10th Amendment that was proposed and ratified on the same dates as the 9th. The 10th Amendment is clear:
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
People addressed by central government lived in states or territories. Their lives were governed by the state or territory in which they lived with the exception that the enumerated rights of the Constitution were supreme and beyond the reach of state and territorial powers.
The 9th Amendment is similarly clear:
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Rights not enumerated but retained by the People cannot be infringed by a central government.
It is clear that the 9th and 10th Amendments clarified the jurisdictional boundaries among federal and state governments, and territories.
Rights governing the unborn and their mothers were not enumerated in the Constitution and so would be governed by the states or territories according to the 9th and 10th Amendments. As an unenumerated right, the 9th Amendment would prohibit the federal government from denying rights to the unborn and their mothers. The 10th Amendment in this matter prohibits federal power over the unborn and their mothers.
Roe vs. Wade was never codified into law by Congress. It was a ruling by the US Supreme Court.
Importantly, today's ruling regarding aborting the unborn does not prohibit aborting the unborn. It simply removes the role of federal government in aborting the unborn.
Root writes:
" ..... when the Constitution was first ratified, it did not yet contain its famous first 10 amendments, otherwise known as the Bill of Rights. Those amendments arrived a few years later ..... added in response to the fierce criticism leveled against the Constitution by the Anti-Federalists, who opposed ratification on several grounds, one of which was that the document lacked a bill of rights, and therefore, in their view, left a number of key rights unprotected ....."
So Root can call AOC and tell her he's available to help propose Amendment XXVIII. I'll help him get started:
Amendment XXVIII
The right of a mother to abort her unborn child shall not be denied by the Federal Government or the States. The right to terminate the life of an unborn child shall extend to the moment of birth. The right to terminate the life of a born child shall follow according to the laws of the State of residence of the mother.
So there you go Root, have at it. Make history.
A right to abortion through a right to privacy established in Griswold is not a power of the federal government - as limited by amendment 10 - but an unenumerated right of the people as per 9. This is therefore not primarily an issue between the states and the feds except for the religious nuts looking to impose their will on the majority.
[WE] mobs rule!!!!
Your reading of the 10th doesn’t seem to be the consensus reading of it.
This was in reference to MLevi.
my god Root is a dilettante
The protection of unenumerated rights under the 9th Amendment has sadly been ignored by the courts and present-day jurisprudence. But by your own argument, the 9th Amendment could only be construed to protect the right of a women to abort during the early stages of pregnancy based on common law precedent. Today's Supreme Court decision upheld a Mississippi law banning abortion after 15 weeks, which is likely beyond the "early stages of pregnancy" time frame. So it's hard to fault the Court for not referring to the 9th Amendment in this case. However, a plausible future Constitutional challenge built around the 9th Amendment could be made to states which outlawed abortion entirely or after some short time period (e.g., 6 weeks).
It wasn’t the early stages though. The 9th amendment could allow abortion for up to 25 weeks.
Damon, as you should know, the Supreme Court answers to the constitution, not you!
https://reason.com/2020/12/12/trump-lost-because-scotus-answers-to-the-constitution-not-to-him/
Over 500 comments. Well, I'll just comment on one part of the post:
"an amicus brief filed in Dobbs by the American Historical Association and the Organization of American Historians."
I checked the American Historical Association Web site to see the kind of impartial way in which they do history.
Here's a Florida research project from a few years ago, proudly documented on their Web site. They wanted an impartial account of women who had abortions pre-Roe, so here's how they went about it:
"We began the project by reaching out to our contacts at Planned Parenthood, the Unitarian Universalist Church, and the local Coalition of Progressive Religious Voices. Supporters passed along the names of women who might have stories to share, while the UUC allowed us to place an ad for the project in their newsletter."
That, undoubtedly, provided a balanced sample of sources.
and
"The project also strengthened our ties to the local community and built bridges across generations. We have spoken with our students at Planned Parenthood and ACLU events across southwestern Florida, and students from the project have co-organized on-campus events with the local chapter of the National Organization of Women (composed mainly of retirees)."
https://www.historians.org/publications-and-directories/perspectives-on-history/january-2015/teaching-and-researching-roe-v-wade
Because that's how history is impartially studied.
"The American Historical Association (AHA) is the oldest professional association of historians in the United States and the largest such organization in the world. Founded in 1884, the AHA works to protect academic freedom, develop professional standards, and support scholarship and innovative teaching. It publishes The American Historical Review four times a year, with scholarly articles and book reviews. The AHA is the major organization for historians working in the United States, while the Organization of American Historians is the major organization for historians who study and teach about the United States."
On the other side we have a religious fanatic with an agenda.
Certainly no agenda is reflected in their choice of organizations to consult with.
I'm reminded of the judge who only listened to the plaintiff's evidence, refusing to hear the defendant's evidence because "hearing both sides tends to confuse this court."
Interviewing only sources recommended by pro-abortion groups is behaving like the judge in the story. Of course there are people who survived abortion attempts, people who wouldn't be alive if their mothers had been able to abort them, women who regret their abortions, etc., but they wouldn't learn about such sources from Planned Parenthood, etc.
The AHA, once reputable and scholarly, has been hijacked by neo-Marxists and their long march through the institutions.
A very interesting take on the 9th amendment. Biden brought up the 9th before to defend abortion, but it was a different take then this. I feel this is a lot more clear cut. I’m surprised I haven’t heard it before. Of course religious institutions didn’t care about abortion back then and often encouraged it.
The reason conservatives are only nominating Catholics to the Supreme Court is because that church was:
the only consistent prolife advocate from 1967 (when life begins at conception was adopted by the Pope) to 1972 and
the Catholic Church has no interest or history of being concerned about establishment of religion
It will be interesting to see whether only Catholic judges can be nominated by R's from this point forward. I suspect that now that Roe is no longer, abortion opinion will become even more important in judicial confirmation
You must be a Project 1619 fan, too.
I'm a fan of all history projects. And the arguments that always accompany them. The more controversial and lively, the better.
Long live the 1st Amendment.
Do you have some problem with allowing dissonant narratives?
The 1619 project is a bunch of racist, neo-Marxist crap. If you're a fan of it, you're an asshole.
I have no problem allowing the 1619 project. But decent people should speak out against it, the same way decent people should speak out against holocaust denial. Since you're a "fan" of the 1619 project and don't seem to feel a need to speak out against it, you're not a decent person as far as I'm concerned.
You haven't even read that Aug 18, 2019 NYT magazine. Which is why you and your ilk can never point to the racist article or the Marxist essay or the racist Marxist and discuss. You just point and screech like it is Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
I have.
I said "neo-Marxist". Before we can even have a discussion about that, you need to understand the difference between "Marxist" and "neo-Marxist".
Well, Invasion of the Body Snatchers is indeed a good metaphor: neo-Marxists came from Europe and are turning Americans into soulless minions. Oh, and they screech too.
AFAIK, neither Thomas, nor Souter, nor Miers, nor Roberts are Catholics.
And why would abortion even be an issue? Roe was struck because it was a bad decision; it's not going to be reinstated.
It's politically good that abortion is finally taken up by legislatures and we are having a public debate about it.
You git it all backwards.
The Constitutioin assigns FEW and SECIFIC powers to FedGov, leaves everything else NOT specified to THE PEOPLE.
Then, when the Bill of Rights came along it specifuically names SOME rights that are naturally accruing to THE PEOPLE, tells Government and all others to LEAVE THOSE RIGHTS ALONE, leaving them to the citizens. It evenspecifically says in one of them that rights not mentioined are not denied or restricted. Other rights exist that are NOT named as accuring to the individual. But FedGov have FEW and DEfINED areas of responsibility and powers, these are ASSIGNED to FedGov to manage.
NOWHErE amongs them is the right for FedGov to interfere with interprsonal realaitonships, anything to do with medicne, health, welfare, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, exlosives, vaccines or other injections (medical matters, see above) .
Thus the Court have it preciesly correct that the "right" for one person to kill another without due process of law does not fall to FedGov to regulate.
And NOWHERE in the rants from the anti-baby-murder crowd do I see even a whisper establishing the BASIS for this "riight" imagined out of whole cloth by the Roe court back when. FedGv hav NO authoiryt to meddle wiht any medicalissues, and the surgical termination of an inocent life is most certainl a medical issue. And yes, I also mean to say FedGov have NO authority whatever to be prattlng on and funding thinks like "vaccine" development, production, administering, mandating, or any other such thing. Per the Constituoin, some private enterprise might develop aninjection, test it for wafety and efficacy, then market it however they see fit to whoever thinks they want it. NOWHERE can they tell ME I mUST get the poke as a condition of trvel, socialislng, emplyment, etc. So along with Roe dying a long-derserved deatha and going away the entire Fed racket that has foisted these injections upon us agaisnt our will, putting milions in real harms' way
Way past time for FedGov to het her oversized destructive wings seriously clipped. Get them OUT of al manner of places the Constitutoin doe sNOT assign them. And, whilst the game is affoot, how's about getting them IN to some of the "few and enumareted" powers/responsibilities they DO have assigned them but are NOT finctioning. Maybe something like, uhm, SECURING OUR BORDERS, repelling foreign invaders, seeing to SOUND money, better maintaining the "post roads" (interstate jhighway system) and making the sinking Post office FUNCTIONAL again.. WHY do they have thousands of armed agents performing criminal investigations and spyiing against us as we go about our daily business? Take that overpriced manpower and applying it to MOVING the mail on time, not damaged, and securely.
The things they meddle with they are not tasked with addressing, the things they ARE assigned they play games with and sandbag and fail. On OUR nickel.....
To distill your rant: the Feds have no inunerated power to regulate Healthcare.
You are headed directly into the logic of Roe.
Step 2 is the 14th incorporates all of this to the states.
Therefore, the states cannot refulate abortion.
No, the court is not consistent on this. Bit that is the very short logic train.
Incorporation only incorporates a subset of the rights specified in the Bill of Rights, one at a time. The Bill of Rights does not explicitly prohibit the federal government from regulating abortion; the federal government is only prohibited from regulating abortion because it is not a delegated power. Therefore, incorporation doesn't apply to abortion unless you manage to relate a right to abortion to the incorporated portions of the Bill of Rights. Roe tried such a legal argument, but it was utterly absurd, which is why it was struck down.
Correct. It falls to the states.
Great article. I agree completely.
Even with the part where he thinks present-day law should still be based on a 300-year old concept of medical science? I guess doctors should still have the right to do bloodletting then.
If you want abortion to be a "right" then get the House and Senate to pass a bill and have the president sign it.
The reason this has not been done is because there isn't anything near a consensus on abortion.
I keep hearing the false binary positions, but reality is that more people fall somewhere in between these two positions.
It is far better to leave the decision at the state level where various methods of where to place the deliminator between when an abortion is acceptable and when it is not.
Personally, I believe that here are at least 2 humans rights in play. There is a sliding scale where as the pregnancy develops that child gains more rights. A spouse may also have some limited rights to consider.
At some point regardless of the circumstances where abortions should not be allowed. If the mother's health is at risk then induce and attempt to save both mother and child.
Wantonly killing a child when they have developed enough to survive as a premature baby is pure evil. What is the point other than the convenience of not having to deal with an unwanted child. To be anyone who supports abortion after this point is guilty of violating the non-aggression principle and I would put into question any claims of being a libertarian.
I'm not sure that would be sufficient; regulating abortion either way is not a power delegated to the federal government.
With this SCOTUS ruling, abortion is firmly returned to state legislatures. Both sides have to make their case to voters in each state.
And I see nothing wrong with that.
I'm no lawyer, but the list of examples of unenumerated rights includes the right to vote. From what I am seeing, the Federal government does not have jurisdiction over unenumerated rights. Any definition of these rights are left to the states. Even voting rights are generally left to the states with the exceptions having been made via amendments to the constitution such as the 15th and 19th amendments. So, in this case, the SC appears to be saying the the Federal government does not have jurisdiction and the previous SC decision by the SC created a right that either should have been created via a constitutional amendment or left to the states.
This author never read Roe v. Wade. Blackmun's miserable excuse for an opinion claimed abortion was protected under the 4th Amendment, which was and is ridiculous. He never mentioned the 9th, because statists like Blackmun and his patron, Burger, hated the 9th and 10th Amendments. The general legal agreement that Roe was bad law, and would eventually be overturned, was based on this 4th Amendment nonsense. Finally, the Court has indeed rejected that spurious reasoning.
If someone wants to bring a 9th Amendment-based suit supporting "abortion rights," they are welcome to do so. Of course, like the author, they have to deny the personhood of the baby to do so, but that's never stopped the killers before.
Legally, fetuses clearly do not have personhood under the US Constitution. If you want to change that, you need to amend the Constitution.
The Court's criteria for unenumerated rights sounds, on the surface, kind of 9th Amendment-ish. Is the right so rooted in the traditions of the people as to rank as fundamental? If it is, it can plausibly be seen to be retained by the people at the time of the Constitution, per the 9th Amendment (or at the time of the 14th Amendment, in the case of the privileges and immunities clause).
My quarrel is with what they define as rights deeply rooted etc. I myself would list things acknowledged at the time of the Constitution such as
-The right to a judicial remedy for injuries to life, property or reputation
-The right to earn a living at a lawful occupation without being hampered by legal monopolies
-The right not to have the government promise your property to other people before its taken by a fine or forfeiture
-The right of conscientious objectors not to have to render military service in person
and others of a like nature, recognized at the time.
The person most consistent on abortion is Peter Singer of Princeton. And while I disagree with him, he contends that transit through the vagina does not confer personhood, and as such infanticide is acceptable. Again, while I don't agree with him, his argument is logically consistent as such, since most pro-choice arguments are based around the idea of personhood. He is also a utilitarian, another objectionable quality and one I find inconsistent with libertarian principles.
The Constitution protects rights from usurpation by the federal government.
But the set of rights actually granted by the Constitution is limited to the Bill of Rights, and only under the incorporation doctrine. That is, the set of rights that states are required to respect under the Constitution is limited to those explicitly protected by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The Constitution does not protect or create unenumerated rights at the state level.
That's why Alito's decision is the correct one: the federal government lacks the delegated power to regulate abortion, while states are not constrained by the Constitution in their ability to regulate abortion. Hence, abortion is a state matter.
The Constitution grants no natural rights, only civil rights, aka privileges.
It’s comments like this that illustrate why libertarianism is failing.
Was the 9th Amendment even raised by the plaintiffs in Dobbs? I didn’t see any mention of such an argument in the opinion including in the dissent. (I only saw references to Roe mentioning it and Casey focusing solely on the 14th). If it wasn’t raised by the plaintiffs in their constitutional challenge to a state law and properly preserved in the courts below, what does that do to the premise of your article- that Alito/the majority has insulted (or disregarded) the 9th Amendment?
The Supreme Court does not raise constitutional grounds for striking down state laws that are not raised by the parties in the courts below.
Perhaps the issue was raised and presented, but if not, the article should have attacked the plaintiffs legal team, not the Supreme Court.
You can't be serious that you think a 500-year-old or so concept of pregnancy still has standing to be the basis for modern-day law. That is the equivalent of saying the 2nd amendment only protects ownership of muskets. Also, even ancient law recognized "formation of the fetus" as a legal basis for protecting the life of the unborn, which was said to occur weeks before "quickening."
"Quickening" in common law is the equivalent of "muskets" in the Second Amendment. Shame on Reason for pretending that this is anything other than a red herring. People have the right to life, and defining the date of life other than conception is a red herring.
The article makes the claim, "because every state at the time of the founding followed the common law as described by Blackstone, no state originally possessed the lawful power to prohibit abortion before quickening." As the court's opinion explains, the states *did* have this power. States legislatures are not bound to common law. The may regulate where legitimate interests provide a rational basis, such as the tradeoff between the wellbeing of mother and unborn human being. Indeed, the tenth amendment provides to states this unenumerated power.
The ruling does not disallow other legal decisions in favor of abortion, it just corrects the legal decision in the Roe case. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was a strong supporter of abortion rights, but she also thought it was a terrible legal decision. She only supported it because of her personal, not legal beliefs.
The 9th Amendment says that the fact that only certain right are enumerated should not be taken as denying the existence of other rights. Logic tells us that just because “not enumerated” does not mean “denied” it does not follow that “not enumerated” means “not denied”; it just means that identifying a right is not dependent on being included in the Bill of Rights. It’s not enough to show that the law only punished abortion after quickening, you should be able to show general acceptance of abortion at earlier points in the pregnancy. Otherwise, it’s just a matter of deciding the point in the pregnancy at which to punish the act of abortion and that is what the people of each state, through their legislatures, will again be deciding.
"It’s not enough to show that the law only punished abortion after quickening, you should be able to show general acceptance of abortion at earlier points in the pregnancy."
Are you not paying attention, or just being dishonest?
Quickening was the legal standard for determining when someone was pregnant. There was no "general acceptance of abortion at earlier points in the pregnancy" because there was no legally recognized way to know someone was pregnant.
Ergo anything that happened prior to quickening was never legally considered to be an abortion.
Mr. Damon Root there is but ONE FLAW THAT STANDS OUT IN YOUR ARGUMENT OF "Today, most legal conservatives purport to be constitutional originalists. What that means for the legal debate over abortion is that any purported originalist must face the question of whether abortion rights may be considered to be among the unenumerated rights "retained by the people" that Madison's Ninth Amendment was specifically written and ratified to protect. Alito's opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization entirely fails to grapple with this necessary question."
That OUR (and I use that term loosely concerning YOU since apparently you are NOT A RESPECTER OF HUMAN LIFE but like the devil lies and twists the TRUTH!) Founding Fathers were ALL CHRISTIANS (in one or another denomination) and who would consider MURDER NOT A RIGHT UNDER THEIR NEWLY FOUNDED CONSTITUTION.
You see the BIBLE and the HISTORY of what they had all gone through as well as their PREDESSORS in England and Europe went INTO the CONSTITUTION AND THE RIGHTS THEREOF. Truly Mr. Demon Root MURDER WAS NOT EVEN CONSIDERED AN "unenumerated rights "retained by the people"".
No, but neither is there an obligation by states to punish it in all cases.
Ultimately, the legality of abortion is a matter for state legislatures. If you want to outlaw abortion, you need to make your case to voters in each state.
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved by it to the states respectively, or to the people."
10th Amendment
Hence, a state can regulate or outlaw abortion, if the people in that state wish it.
Then they should have to "wish it" unanimounsly since it involves individual rights. We can't have evangelicals imposing religious dogma concerning the sanctity of two divided cells (or every sperm) upon rational secular people or outlawing birth control because it interferes with "god's will".
Whether it's right or wrong is immaterial. The question is who gets to decide. The supreme court has firmly punted it to the legislative branch. You seem to only care about the outcome and not the process used to achieve it. The process is important though, just as important as the results.
You may wish that, but that's not actually how state legislation works.
You mean the same "rational secular people" who used to use abortions and forced sterilization in an attempt to eliminate minorities and other "undesirables"?
The Roe decision was overturned. That does not mean some other legal argument could not be made to support it. It only means that the Roe vs. Wade decision was faulty. There are definite self defense arguments to be made in the case of some abortions. Self defense is a right of all people. The thing is Roe was bad law and it set up numerous other decisions which will have to be revisited.
I fail to see what "self defense" arguments could be made. And I just don't get this obsession with trying to push this through at the court level.
If you want to legalize abortion across the nation, you have two options: (1) work with each state legislature and convince the voters, or (2) pass an amendment.
A woman at all times has the basic human right to control her own body -- including exerting control over whether or not to gestate a blastocyst or zygote to human viability. Human women are not livestock to be forced against to gestate another life. A fetus develops its own "rights" when it is capable of suriving autonomously outside of a womb in a manner non-parasitic to its host. Contrary to largely uninformed male beliefs, pregnancy is not benign. Pregnancy confers ample and abundant bodily harm upon the maternal host even when the pregnancy is welcomed and wanted. We don't force fathers to give up a kidney to save "an innocent child" even though he has two. We don't even allow organs to be harvested from a dead person who has no use for them to save "an innocent child" if the dead person did not give express consent when alive. I cannot say this emphatically enough: at no point can a female be morally forced to gestate against her will. At the point of fetal autonomous survivability, it is reasonable and moral to require that a fetus be removed from an unwilling host in a manner that preserves its life. It can then be incubated though the miracle that is modern medicine until it has fully formed and can be disconnected from medical machinery. Science is moving the needle of "survivability" but it is currently at about 20-21 weeks with heavy medical intervention in a Tier 3 NICU.
It's fine that you think that, but it has nothing to do with what the Constitution says or requires or prohibits. It's an argument to make to the legislature.
You've got this exactly backward. The court is saying this question is not theirs to decide, and never should have been. They are returning the right of the states and the people to make this decision for themselves. The Bill of Rights is a set of "declaratory and restrictive clauses" on the federal government in order to "prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers" The 9th Amendment becomes pointless if you say the people retain unenumerated rights the federal government can't "deny or disparage," while granting it the final authority to decide what those rights are.
A bit late to the party on this one but what the hell? The 9th has nothing to do with abortion, this case, or especially with this ruling. Dobbs just says that the federal government will leave it to the states to regulate an activity as they please. It's not banning abortion. The rights of the people to decide for themselves (through their elected representatives) is explicitly preserved.
This is hilarious. The whole point of Alito’s ruling is that it’s up to the state to define “quickening”.
We have a bill of rights because a handful of states refused to ratify the constitution without one. And if they weren't in there, we'd be like Australia and it would be illegal to own guns. At the whim of politicians. Leaving what's not enumerated in the constitution up to the states seemed to work up until 50 or so years ago.
Look dipshits. I don't know why y'all think that being libertarian means that anyone should be able to do buy a gun (which I agree with) and do any drugs they wish (which I also agree with), but disagree that another human being should never be legally responsible for keeping another person alive with the use of their own body. AND Y'ALL THINK THE STATE SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT?
I don't give a fuck if a woman fucks 7000 men with no birth control. She is not responsible for keeping another person alive with her own body. If that were the case, than the law would require every parent who has a child who needs a kidney transplant to donate their own kidney or be arrested for murder.
All of y'all have kidneys in your bodies that could save the lives of thousands of children needing kidneys. Should congress enact a law that requires you to donate one of your kidneys when a child in your area needs a kidney transplant? When YOUR child needs a kidney transplant?
"I don't give a fuck if a woman fucks 7000 men with no birth control. She is not responsible for keeping another person alive with her own body."
That's about as succinctly as it can be put. I would just add that if the woman chooses to keep the baby, the man should not forcibly be held responsible for its care. No one should be coerced into being a parent, man or woman.
The writer may feel this is an abrogation of the 9th amendment, but it is a 100% affirmation of the 10th amendment.
There is no argument of "choice". It is not now, and has never been about the woman's body....she isn't the one receiving a death sentence.
The argument set out in this article is what we lawyers call "bad." (Or at least some of we lawyers call "bad.")
First, the Ninth Amendment has never been incorporated by the 14th, so it doesn't apply to state laws. It's one thing to say something was beyond the powers delegated to the Feds in the Constitution, but another thing entirely to try to apply that to the States. After all, this thing you're calling a "right" under the Ninth Amendment might just be something reserved to the States under the Tenth. The federal government was supposed to be limited to those powers delegated to it by the Constitution, while the States had broad powers to do pretty much as they pleased, subject to the limits of the State constitutions.
Second, the argument assumes that the Ninth Amendment would do away with the States' general police powers. Just because something was not a crime at the time the Ninth Amended was adopted does not mean it was regarded as a "right" that was beyond the power of the States to regulate. Otherwise, everything that was not expressly prohibited in 1791 is magically transformed into a fundamental right, beyond the reach of government regulation. Was cockfighting generally legal in 1791? If so, fundamental right and no one can mess with it. Child labor? Fundamental right. Could a man be convicted of raping his wife in 1791? Nope. Fundamental right. Drugs? Fundamental right.
Third, prior to the 14th Amendment, none of this applied to the States as a metter of federal Constitutional law. Only later did we get incorporation, either through the Due Process Clause or the Privileges and Immunities Clause (if you listen to Thomas). By the time the 14th was adopted, most states had abortion bans, and no one thought it was a "right" that States couldn't interfere with. So you'd have to argue that when they adopted the 14th Amendment, they intended to incorporate a fundamental right that no one recognized as a fundamental right at the time.
The question has to be whether the "right" at issue was recognized as a right at the time, in the sense that it was something that would have been seen as off limits even to state governments at the time. And there's no evidence of that.
All due respect to Mr. Root, but his quoting of Blackstone left out some key context.
Blackstone quoted Sir Edmond Coke, whose full quote was: "If a woman be quick with childe, and by a potion or otherwise killeth it in her wombe, or if a man beat her, whereby the child dyeth in her body, and she is delivered of a dead childe, this is great misprision, and no murder."
The intent of the quote was to spell out when the privileges of personhood were owed to the unborn child - SPECIFICALLY precluding a murder charge against a pregnant woman whose unborn child is killed.
Defining personhood is related to but is definitely not the same thing as defining abortion before quickening as a right. To say that personhood was not afforded to the baby before quickening, therefore common law granted a right to abortion that was codified by the 9th amendment...that's a bit of a leap.
Root’s argument is based on the premise that if something was permitted when the 9th Amendment was ratified, and was not enumerated in the constitution, it is *a right* that is covered by the Ninth Amendment.
That premise makes no sense. There are countless things that Common Law (or specifically, the American legislators) did not prohibit when the 9th Amendment was ratified which were never considered a right, and therefore cannot be said to be covered by the 9th Amendment. The lack of prohibition does not confer upon something the status of a right. It’s bizarre that Root thinks that it does, and it’s probably the reason few if any legal scholars buy his odd argument.
Pre-quickening abortions were not prohibited by the legislators, not because the legislators believed there was *a right* to abort, but for other reasons (e.g., because that was their only evidence that the fetus was in fact alive). They could have just as easily prohibited pre-quickening abortions without anyone raising an objection that the prohibition violates a right. In fact, at the time of the ratification of the 9th Amendment, the overwhelming number of States prohibited abortion entirely, without anyone objecting on the grounds that this violates a right.
**IF** there were a body of work from that era - writings of judges, legal analysts, philosophers, media pundits, publicists, etc. - that argued that the prohibition violates the right to abort a fetus, THEN his argument would be an exceedingly sound one. But alas, no such body of work exists. In fact, NO ONE seems to have raised that argument at the time for around 180 years (from 1791 when the 9th was ratified till 1973 when Roe was decided). Why was it not raised, literally by anyway, if there were a widespread understanding that such a right existed?
- because no one thought such a right existed.
In short, anyone reading the 9th Amendment at the time it was ratified would NOT have understood that it covers the right to abort. Root’s claim that a typical reader WOULD HAVE understood that it covers the right to abort is AHISTORICAL. AT THE TIME OF RATIFICATION, THE NINTH AMENDMENT *DID NOT* COVER THE RIGHT TO ABORT, and therefore Root's critique of Dobbs is wrong.
[edited comment, 7/20/22] Root’s argument is based on the premise that if something was permitted when the 9th Amendment was ratified, and was not enumerated in the constitution, it is *a right* that is covered by the Ninth Amendment.
That premise makes no sense. There are countless things that Common Law (or specifically, the American legislators) did not prohibit when the 9th Amendment was ratified which were never considered a right. The lack of prohibition does not confer upon something the status of a right. If this premise were true, we could never prohibit ANYTHING that was allowed in 1791, since anything that was not prohibited is a right, and that is a strange conclusion. It’s bizarre that Root thinks that the lack of prohibition implies a right. This is probably the reason few, if any, legal scholars buy his argument.
Pre-quickening abortions were not prohibited by legislators, not because they believed there was *a right* to abort, but for other reasons (e.g., because at the time, quickening was the only evidence that the fetus was in fact alive). They could have just as easily prohibited pre-quickening abortions without anyone claiming that the prohibition violates a right. In fact, at the time the 9th Amendment was ratified, the overwhelming number of States prohibited abortion entirely, without anyone objecting on the grounds that this violates a right.
As Alito writes, “the fact that many States in the late 18th and early 19th century did not criminalize pre-quickening abortions does not mean that anyone thought the States lacked the authority to do so.”
He is plainly correct.
**IF** there were a body of work from that era - such as writings of judges, legal analysts, philosophers, media pundits, publicists, etc. - that argued that abortion prohibition violates the right to abort a fetus, THEN Root’s argument would be exceedingly sound. But alas, no such body of work exists. In fact, NO ONE, or HARDLY ANYONE, seems to have raised that argument for around 160 years (from 1791 when the 9th was ratified till the 1950s when “the right to abort” was raised in the public discourse). Why in 160 years was this right never raised in objection to abortions bans, if there were a widespread understanding that such a right existed?
Because no one thought such a right existed.
In short, anyone reading the 9th Amendment at the time it was ratified would NOT have understood that it covers the right to abort. Root’s claim that a standard/educated reader WOULD HAVE understood that it covers the right to abort is AHISTORICAL. AT THE TIME OF RATIFICATION, THE NINTH AMENDMENT *DID NOT* COVER THE RIGHT TO ABORT, and therefore Root's critique of Dobbs is wrong.
"Kill babies because of irresponsible fathers" is the ghoulish idiot's actual argument.
What a psychopath.
"Fartilized egg smells have rights, but only if they are HUMAN egg smells, 'cause I say so!", says the power-hungry authoritarian. What a self-righteous Nosenheimer, Buttinksy, and power-lusting maniac!
You resent the hell out of the fact that many other people are flat-out, better, more honest people than you are, right? More “live and let live”, and WAAAY less authoritarian?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-love-and-war/201706/why-some-people-resent-do-gooders
From the conclusion to the above…
These findings suggest that we don’t need to downplay personal triumphs to avoid negative social consequences, as long as we make it clear that we don’t look down on others as a result.
SQRLSY back here now… So, I do NOT want you to feel BAD about YOU being an authoritarian asshole, and me NOT being one! PLEASE feel GOOD about you being an evil, lying asshole! You do NOT need to push me (or other REAL lovers of personal liberty) down, so that you can feel better about being an asshole! EVERYONE ADORES you for being that asshole that you are, because, well, because you are YOU! FEEL that self-esteem, now!
"Your consequence for having 'sex' is being BANNED from owning your body......", signed the Pro-Life Gov-Guns of authority mob......
Nope. You are saying a woman's body may be seized by the state for the benefit of "another". Her previous actions are irrelevant to her self-ownership.
Actually, I'm saying that. No one owns "her own body," whether herself of someone else. If she owned her body, then she would have to right to sell it, and I doubt many people want to go there.
Sadly, for many women that isn't true.
No, not really.
Forced vaccination is as intolerable as forced pregnancy, for the same reason.
No one is or was forced to be vaccinated against covid.
To get away from the tribalistic lynch mob!
I for one can’t STAND the idea that a casual reader here of a libertarian news and commenting site would read the vapid and vile comments, and conclude, “Oh, so THAT’s what libertarians are all about!” No, it’s just that libertarians (and VERY few others) still believe in free speech, so the troglodytes come HERE, where their vile lies & vapid insults will NOT be taken down!
The intelligent, well-informed, and benevolent members of tribes have ALWAYS been resented by those who are made to look relatively worse (often FAR worse), as compared to the advanced ones. Especially when the advanced ones denigrate tribalism. The advanced ones DARE to openly mock “MY Tribe’s lies leading to violence against your tribe GOOD! Your tribe’s lies leading to violence against MY Tribe BAD! VERY bad!” And then that’s when the Jesus-killers, Mahatma Gandhi-killers, Martin Luther King Jr.-killers, etc., unsheath their long knives!
“Do-gooder derogation” (look it up) is a socio-biologically programmed instinct. SOME of us are ethically advanced enough to overcome it, using benevolence and free will! For details, see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ and http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/ .
He saw some dog shit and wanted a snack?
OSHA said that when they required the vast majority of women to take a newly-developed vaccine to keep their jobs.
"Nope. You are saying a woman's body may be seized by the state for the benefit of "another". Her previous actions are irrelevant to her self-ownership."
Kind of like how the State can "seize" the body of a violent man by use of a restraining order? Kind of like the was the State can "seize" the body of any other citizen who owes renumeration to someone? Kind of like how the State can "Seize" the body of parents and force them to provide for the care of their 1 month old child?
That kind of seizing?
OK, I'll bite, figuratively speaking. Did he really state he eats excrement?
If you were alive you would appreciate the argument we are making about the sacredness of life.
There's no movement to forcibly impregnate women.
Multiple times.
https://www.livekindly.co/poo-legally-allowed-food/
This Is How Much Poo Is Legally Allowed In Your Food
If you eat grocery-store food or processed food, you eat poop! And over billions of years, the carbon cycle GUARANTEES that you are eating recycled whale poop, dinosaur jism, mastodon menstrual fluid, etc. Beyond mentioning that, I have NEVER written that I eat poop! But liars lie, you know? Beyond that... For R Mac most especially...
Some folks are intelligent, well-informed, and benevolent enough to competently discus ethics, morality, and politics. Others? They literally know how to talk shit, and little if anything else!
Yes. Many times.
Not just stating, but bragging.
He did!
Yet NONE of the evil low-brow liars can cite when I supposedly posted this! What an utter surprise!
Yes, he did. Among other unpleasantries.
^actually misogynistic statement
No, a statement recognizing that many women live in subjugation to violent men.
Bullshit.
Joe Moron will now respond by splitting hairs about what "forced" means.
LOL. You're not even trying anymore.
No one is or was forced to be vaccinated against covid.
I was. So was wife, and so was my daughter.
Was anyone strapped to a table, held down, and vaccinated while having a gun to their head? No.
Was anyone threatened with compulsory exclusion from a number of critical activities, including possible career ending termination of employment? Yes.
Which is still coercion.
Yes, and that was wrong, too.
No, those are all very different. But you knew that, and are bullshitting.
No, because no one else has the right to own her.
Omg. Still demeaning of women.
Less than half of 1 percent of all abortions in the country are a product of rape. Anything else you'd like to lie about while we're here? I'd be happy to stuff any number of false facts right back up your asshole where you pulled them from.
"The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Therefore if abortion was ever enumerated as a right it would most clearly deny the enumerated right to life of the unborn person.
It can never be.
It is an absolute joke to say " abortion is not mentioned in the constitution."
I am pro choice. I will happily change to anti abortion when the anti abortion crowd adopts every unwanted child and gives them a loving home. You cocksuckers don't even want to give them school meals.
The bigger problem, that courts love to create, is there are A LOT of things not specifically mentioned in the constitution.
Now that the radical extremist, and corrupt, far-Right Conservative activist justices have ruled that women are property again - The Maker/Contributor Blue States should pass laws forcing all Conservative women to have abortions.
That, children, is how you start to fight back to expose what the faults with Conservatism are.
Apparently you're ignorant of this problem.
Where is the right to life enumerated?
It is pretty obvious by reading these comments that most never bothered to read the 6-3 decision. Certainly the editor who wrote this article didn’t. By the way, where did he get his law degree and how long has he been a judge ?
In any event. Baby killers are now free to pass laws allowing publicly funded, post-birth abortions in week 40 w/o parental consent if they wish. — even if there is no reason other than they think the kid looks ugly or Is a girl instead of a boy
"Unborn person" is an oxymoron.
When is a fetus a person? At conception, one cell, or, two cell?
Do we have funerals for miscarries of a zygote? Do we even keep the result, put it in a casket? I have not heard of such. Is this a mistake all humanity has been making since the beginning of civilization?
The question: When does humanity begin? At conception? Is that speck a human being? Or, a beginning of a long process that may end in a human, or something else? There are organisms that are products of sperm/egg that are not human. What are they? When does a fertilization become a person?
These complex questions are not simple, obvious. Neither are they social. They are personal, unique for each of us. Therefore, a political answer is not possible, except to say there are questions that are outside the purview of politics, i.e., outside our social life.
Access to birth control and different types of contraceptives are more prolific than at any prior point in human history. If a woman doesn't want to get pregnant but still wants to have lots of sex, she's got tons of options. You don't have to have anything inside your body you didn't want. Even if you're raped, there's still a day-after pill that prevents the zygote from implanting.
This idea that putting limits on abortion is somehow denying women the ability to control their own bodies is asinine.
If others are free to retaliate against us by creating "consequences" for us when we exercise our rights, then, in practice, we don't really have rights.
I wouldn't call it a "movement", but there are subcultures that celebrate recklessly impregnating women and girls.
In the Declaration of Independence.
Youre more brain dead than I am!
The declaration of independence states:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are LIFE, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Article in amendment #5.
Declaration of Independence, which was understood to be the fundamental rights for the people of the United States.
Are you aware of the gender percentage of who the abuser in a relationship is?
"Was anyone...held down, and vaccinated"
Children and the mentally disabled.
"Was anyone threatened"
And nursing home residents threatened with eviction.
That's terrible. Did you call the police?
If you insist on not taking steps to protect others from a contagious disease it is long established and legal practice to restrict your contact with others. In fact your kids can't go to school without a entire series of vaccines.
You snowflakes don't know the difference between being forcibly vaccinated and being kept away from others if you refuse to take precautions.
I'm aware that Incels afraid of being beaten up by girls disingenuously quote stats on that that ignore the difference in size and strength between men and women. Is that what you're talking about?
I'm aware that Incels afraid of being beaten up by girls disingenuously quote stats on that that ignore the difference in size and strength between men and women.
That still doesn't change the fact that Plan B can be easily be purchased from a pharmacist.
Vernon wants to convince us of some delusion where women are helpless, not strong, pathetic individuals with no control over anything. They have to stay with a physically abusive partner and be baby machine. And in the United States too!
It's delusional bullshit. Now find a better fucking excuse for making a baby, and then having it's skull crushed and it's brain sucked out. WTF!
You need to find new social circles
Is it really force if you have breeding fetish?
True
That's terrible. Did you call the police?
It wasn't considered a crime.
Please. Tell me how it is different.
In all those cases the State is saying "you have an obligation to use your labor and energy to do X". If you fail to fulfill that obligation, it breaks the law. In all these cases your BODY is being forced to provide in some way- either through working extra hours, watching an infant on sleepless nights, or hosting the baby in the womb. In all cases the law is requiring you to honor that obligation.
So explain the difference, and WHY that difference is meaningful.
Roe is gone.
Now science can demonstrate the personhood aka right to life of the unborn in courtrooms everywhere.
"By the way, where did [Root] get his law degree and how long has he been a judge ?"
This is of course irrelevant to anything, given the miserable quality of our judges, so I rebuke you for implying that any such appeal to authority would be valid if it could be made.
That said... Root is an utter clown. And I didn't have to read the decision myself (I haven't, yet) to be able to easily demonstrate this.
Root writes, "At the heart of Justice Samuel Alito's opinion... which overturns Roe v. Wade (1973) and eliminates the constitutional right to abortion, is Alito's objection that "the Constitution makes no mention of abortion." For Alito and the many legal conservatives who think like him, unenumerated constitutional rights are inherently suspect"
This is a howler on several levels.Putting aside the fact that since there was never any actual Constitutional right to abortion for Alito to eliminate, the words quoted are (a) not his, and (b) not part of an "objection" to the existance of an abortion right. They're from the SYLLABUS, which is helpfully noted to be "no part of the opinion of the Court but has been
prepared by the Reporter of Decisions for the convenience of the reader." And the full sentence reads, "Even though the
Constitution makes no mention of abortion, the [Roe] Court held that it confers a broad right to obtain one" But, the Syllabus goes on to note, "The Court’s decisions have held that the Due Process Clause protects two categories of substantive rights—those rights guaranteed by the first eight Amendments to the Constitution and those rights deemed fundamental that are not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution." I'm not seeing anywhere that Alito says that "those rights... not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution" are imaginary in the same way the "right" to abortion is imaginary, so Root's entire premise goes *pffft*.
There are a few libertarians in the comment section here but by and large most of them are extreme right reactionary Fox / News Breitbart whackos.
It just never fails. I read a cogent, intelligent, and agreeable libertarian perspective article here, and look for cogent educated commentary that might be insightful, and no. It is grade school level name calling, insulting hostile, disrespectful, crazy town.
The American Conservative has far more enlightening and intelligent commentary threads.
Sad to say - but I think the Mises caucus and many of the commenters here share the same political beliefs - and certainly the same fondness for projectile vomiting.
So it may soon be that this is what Libertarianism becomes. Hope I'm wrong.
You need to get out more and find out that the whole country is not like your neighborhood.
Maybe at least a tort, though. Lawsuits are proceeding through the courts.
You don't realize that being "kept away from others" (also called "imprisonment" or "exile") IS being coerced and can be very damaging.
COVID vax does not stop infection or transmission, so fuck off, slaver.
I'm good.
You seem to be surrounded by domestic abusers and rapists.
Without going into details about my life and work history, yes, I've been around such people more than I would like.
Well that’s sad. What does it have to do with this topic?
What it has to do with the topic is that for women in these subcultures, sex is not as consensual as we would like to assume.
Fewer than 1% of abortions are sought because of rape or incest
Prison wardens insist that most prison sex is consensual. Not all non-consensual sex is prosecutable rape. Women often consent to sex in response to fear or social pressure. There's not a bright line between wanted sex and rape.
Now we’ve spun off to prison rape? You’ve gotten even farther than the topic.
Off the topic.
Since you're unable to follow the conversation despite my patiently explaining to you, I suggest you just stay out of it.
If you don't see the difference between going to work and having an embryo INSIDE YOU, I don't know what I can say to you.
The State can "Seize" the body of parents and force them to provide for the care of their 1 month old child?
Can they now??? I'm not so sure that is true just yet..... But thanks to the new Power-Mad grants of power; I'm sure it most certainly is on the way..... "Use those Gov-Guns and force mommy and 1-month old child into a prison cell until she is 'forced' to love it unconditionally.", proudly will announce the new puritan dictators.
But lets see here... Pregnant Women does not equal a violent man. Pregnant Women does not equal someone who owes renumeration.
Nobody cares.
Nice try White Mike, but you're not tricking anyone. Particularly when responding to Sqrlsy of all people like he's a voice of reason.
" I read a cogent, intelligent, and agreeable libertarian perspective article here..."
Then why are you commenting on THIS thread? Because THIS article is trash (as I pointed out above, OBVIOUS trash.)
When everybody else has a completely different understanding of words than you do, it's usually not everyone else who is wrong. Hope that helps, sarcasmic.
tzx4 is sarcasmic, as is sqrsly. He knows he can't get away with replying to himself anymore without me and a half dozen other people calling him out on it, so he had to create a new sock to bolster his shit-eating pedophile persona. Give him points for consistency.
Try Vox.
"It just never fails. I read a cogent, intelligent, and agreeable libertarian perspective article here"
Must be at the wrong site.
Just build your own health system.
It’s really cool to virtue signal that you will change part of your moral code based upon the actions of others rather than what is right or wrong.
You cocksuckers don't even want to give them school meals.
Isn't it the parents' job to feed their kids, rather than the government?
Adoption is a complicated process (the difficulty, I imagine, is partly rooted in racism and probably should be made a lot easier.) But the claim that an unwanted child has no value is absurd. Every human life has value, even the least capable among us. Each life and our society is better off with millions more babies being born every year than not. The trope that just because the mother doesn’t want it means someone else should have to care for it is also absurd. We know the father certainly has a legal and societal obligation to support his children and can be sent to jail if he neglects those responsibilities. When does the mother bear any responsibility for her actions - for creating another life through her mating? Has motherhood lost all value and meaning in our society?
This ruling does not strip anyone of their ability to obtain an abortion on demand, as is obvious by the soon-to-be California abortion tourism industry. I can picture the billboards now, “Come for an abortion, stay for the fun! Visit “The Happiest Place on Earth” in Anaheim, California.”
Your inability to make any actual argument is noticed.
It's a relevant FACT that "abortion is not mentioned in the constitution."
“Charity is no part of government” Jane’s Madison.
There are substantially more families who wish to adopt a child than there are children in need of adoption, shreek, but pieces of shit like you believe that a loving evangelical christian couple shouldn't be allowed to adopt unless some dysfunctional child grooming faggot pedophile like yourself is also able to adopt, and consequently millions of children face life in the gristmill of the foster care system being sexually abused by deranged fucks like yourself as well as their fellow wayward teens.
(freedomwriter, for the edification of the class, is a sockpuppet of the person who used to post here as Shrike and then as Sarah Palin's Buttplug before he got banned for posting dark web links to hardcore child pornography).
So, I guess the only left is for you to stop being a piece of shit pedophile, change your viewpoint to anti-abortion, and otherwise keep your cock holster shut.
Personal responsibility is such a drag, right? Why am I not surprised that a pro-abortionist wants other people to feed their kids?
A common leftist argument.
I can't put food in his mouth! Thus we should kill them!
No. The solution isn't to feed the babies that don't get aborted. The solution is to take some FUCKING responsibility and make preparations so you don't get pregnant. Men and women!
It is not a joke. Do you think for one fucking second that the 9th amendment was to protect killing babies???? Before 1821 abortion was a common law offence - before there were even statutes for it. Because it was universally abhorrent. By 1900 every single state had anti-abortion laws on the books.
But sure - the founders didn't believe abortion was murder inside a womb. Founding father: "We need to protect killing babies that are unwanted! - I propose the 9th amendment!"
You say it's a joke that abortion is not mentioned in the constitution. Had the people of the late 1700s seen what the future was today, they would have made an amendment explicitly not protecting abortion. LOL
If you like to have the "right" to kill babies before they exit a womb, have your reps write an amendment, and put it in the bill of rights, rather than install activist judges to claim the people in 1868 where actually trying to protect killing babies, instead of the events that actually took place at the time.
"I am pro choice. I will happily change to anti abortion when the anti abortion crowd adopts every unwanted child and gives them a loving home. You cocksuckers don't even want to give them school meals."
I'll support gun control right after you end all violent crime. Deal?
Because the left doesn't care about children. If they aren't killed in the womb, it is up to the pro-life supporters to adopt them and give them a loving home. Sounds about right. You are admitting that the left cares nothing about children. As to school meals, I assume you are a part of a group that makes sure needy children have meals that the tax-payer doesn't provide. No? Ah, you just like to virtue signal with OTHER people's money. Not your own.
lol... Pro-Life sure does stumble around a lot trying to gain Power.
Kind of like the way the Germans decided that the death camps were suddenly no longer socially acceptable.
"Progressives" are all about society, not individuals.
"It’s really cool to virtue signal that you will change part of your moral code based upon the actions of others rather than what is right or wrong."
Many conservatives claim to be okay with gays so long they don't show affection in public as heteros do, because then they're forcing their lifestyle. There's your moral code based on the actions of others rather than what's right or wrong.
No, the author is noting that her moral code is based upon the children not being cared for. He/she doesn't necessarily have a moral position on the act of abortion killing/not killing a "person" or a woman's right.
IMO doesn't have a legitimate interest in protecting the fetus before the point of viability. I don't think abortions for reasons other than the health of the mother are a good thing, but as long as my tax dollars aren't used to do it, I don't care.
You are merely a moron.
Actually in many states unborn are considered LEGAL PERSONS with regard to MURDER under the law. In fact there have been CONVICTIONS for MURDER of unborn. Therefore you know nothing of which you speak.
No it's not. Simply because you have categorized the unborn as not a person, doesn't mean an 8 mo old baby, which is in a womb, is less precious than a 9 mo old baby just delivered. Your simple lingual categorization of of fake boundaries, perceived by you, is not a rule we are going to live by. Humans, and all creatures, come into being, in a full color gradient from start to finish. It is not black and white.
Parents' job when there are parents who can do so. Your ignorance of the real world is unsettling. Maybe you should live in a city or low-income suburb a little while.
"You cocksuckers don't even want to give them school meals."
You're referring to the Biden admin's proposal to cut off subsidized school meals unless the schools allow trannys into girls' bathrooms?
Leftists lie.
It's fundamental to their being.
The fact that sexual deviance is disgusting and repulsive is entirely perpendicular to questions of morality.
Let me know, won't you, as soon as heterosexual people block off a 2 mile section of Folsom Street in downtown fucking San Francisco and turn it into a festival of public nudity, public fornication, and BDSM while schoolchildren look on. Oh? What's that you say? Straight people don't fuck each other in public and behave like a bunch of undomesticated chimps? Well I'll be damned.
You know nothing of what you speak. Gays have claimed an entire month to share with the world their sexual ideals and orientation. There is not a DAY for heterosexuals. Heteros do not FLAUNT their sexual acts or orientation and attempt to REQUIRE schools to teach how to do specific sex acts. The Gay LGBTQ etc DO this DAILY.
DO not give me your BS about "lifestyle" and your right to tell the rest of the world how bad they are because they do not want the "in your face BS put forth by many in the "lifestyle".
"Many conservatives claim to be okay with gays so long they don't show affection in public as heteros do"
We do not love hetero PDA, either. You can save that shit for your home if you so wish.
Your life has no value.
There is no indication that the parents whose brats are getting free meals from the taxpayer are unable to pay for them.
Parents' job when there are parents who can do so.
Is that why schools are bragging about providing free breakfast and lunch to every single one of their students now?
Your ignorance of the real world is unsettling.
Bitch, you'd get your white ass shanked if you walked down the neighborhood where my family grew up. I suspect I'm far more well-versed in the world of the working class than you are.
Do you know what the word "article" means? Because you misused it.
The relevant part of the relevant CLAUSE reads "No person shall...be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
It's a declaration and not the Constitution, which is the Supreme law of the land.
The Constitution does not give anyone anything. It ONLY gives the Federal government certain, enumerated powers. The entire document is laid out expressly to name those powers and to limit the Federal governments powers over anything else.
There is no Federal power over abortion - so the SCOTUS correctly reversed Roe v. Wade as a gross overstep. And this author is an imbecile. Trying to state that the 9th amendment mans that the Fed Gov has a power to state that the people have a right to abortion. Untrue.
It goes to the states or the people. Let them duke it out as the Feds certainly have no business in the abortion arena. 9Or marriage for that matter).
I'm ok with aborting YOU right now.
It's so incisive because you copped it from a bumper sticker from 1978!
Cry more.
Go look at the NUMBER of women who are permanently maimed by abortion mills. They attempt to hide the tens to scores per year at every clinic that are ambulanced to hospitals with shredded wombs and internal bleeding etc. People like you want to argue "safe abortion" but there IS NOT SUCH THING. We can discuss the emotional destruction a woman goes through after an abortion. We can discuss the physical harm done, the increase in breast cancer statistics, we can go on and on with hundreds of reasons Abortion is BAD. You will not discuss these because you are brainwashed altogether.
Leftist: "We can't kill our babies in their states. So let's make them kill theirs in ours!"
Sounds about right.
"far-Right Conservative activist justices have ruled that women are property again"
Ahh, abortion is the only thing that frees women is the new canard. Nice.
Where the fuck did you come from? A guy who rejects credentialism and appeals to authority while also rejecting bad arguments from the disingenuous? Reminds me of the Reason comments circa 20 years ago.
Roe V Wade NEVER created a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO ANYTHING, IT UNLAWFULLY CREATED LAW ONLY. The fact is that Norma McCorvey was uneducated and somewhat illiterate. An attorney firm USED HER and created a "what if this were true" scenario. In the 1990's I met her. She had been educated and had actually read the case itself. She learned that not one fact given the court was true.
This case was FRAUD UPON THE COURT. Many attorneys and judges KNEW this but did nothing. The ONLY thing that needed done was a SWORN STATEMENT from McCorvey as to the facts and that her attorney made up facts. That one document filed with the First COURT her attorney filed in would have created a NULL VERDICT all the way to the Supreme Court. Meaning the decision itself never existed.
I believe that part of the reason it was overthrown is that somehow TRUTH has prevailed in the Court.
Roe V Wade should NEVER have existed under the law except for liar of an attorney who faked and entire case to SCOTUS. IT is much better that this has been overthrown altogether as it was NULL on its Face.
And progressive omelettes always require the state to crack some eggs.
Progressiveism is about equality and human rights. The GQP is about big government imposing christo-fascism on the American Republican and install Trump and his successors as dictators for life.
They’re continued insistence to ignore that the complaints are specifically about them involving children is telling.
Sexual deviance breeds more sexual deviance. There's an openness and a proven willingness to defy moral norms, and with particular flamboyance in the gay community. Social conservatives argued from the beginning that it's a slippery slope, and social liberals accused them of offensive, ridiculous fearmongering. While I don't agree with the conservatives on every issue, it appears they were completely right.
When the APA normalized homosexuality, that opened the door for the normalization of transgenderism, though gender dysphoria is still a psychiatric disorder per the DSM, only so that "transitioning" can be considered a necessary medical treatment. When SCOTUS officially redefined "marriage" in the name of "love," that opened the door for "woman" to be redefined also. The liberal legalization of abortion under the mantra of "safe, legal, and rare" paved the way for progressives to begin pushing it as a stigma-free, positive social good to be celebrated that liberates "menstruating people" from the patriarchally imposed slavery of motherhood rather than as any kind of necessary evil for dire circumstances. #ShoutYourAbortion The demand for universal tolerance of alternative lifestyles led to a demand for affirmation of alternative lifestyles, and if you express any moral or cultural misgivings, you stand guilty of bigotry, erasure, and inciting violence and deserve abject humiliation without mercy or forgiveness. The only shame progressives believe in anymore is the shame of cancellation for ideological heretics and those who have at any time demonstrated an insensitivity to the fragile psyches of a sacred, protected minority.
I used to wish libertarians would stay the hell out of the culture wars, focus on economics and anti-statism, and emphasize that all cultural views are welcome as long as they refrain from trying to impose their will on society by coercion rather than persuation. I think now libertarians have to stand up for cultural common sense, sanity, and decency as well. When our language loses its meaning, our stated principles are liable to get bent out of shape. When truth is not respected and the very notion of human nature is rejected, then all we're left with the will to power; the language of individual rights is turned upside down and weaponized to destroy and enslave.
Alito's Abortion Ruling Overturning Roe Is an Insult to the 9th Amendment
The Constitution protects many more rights than it mentions, as James Madison explained.
Doesn't protect baby murder! In fact, before abortion statutes, abortion was a common law offence. by 1900, every single state had anti-abortion legislation. I swear, libertarians "can" be completely retarded.
Retarded Libertarian: Freedom is paramount. That is why murder is included in the 9th amendment. We need the freedom to murder babies. And when the founders wrote the 9th amendment they were protecting baby killings!
The Declaration of Independence was an expression of the Founding Fathers' ideals and their grievances against the British Crown and their desire to break from The Crown. It was not a legal document and in fact was an illegal, treasonous document against The Crown, for which the Signers would have hung for Treason if they were caught and/or The American Revolution failed.
By the way, the "right to alter or abolish" clause referring to governments that desrroy protection of Individual Rights applies to National Socialism too.
So Fuck Off, Nazi!
It's a fact, but as the point of this article argues - and Alito actually does in his opinion - it's not relevant. If it WERE mentioned, that would be relevant, but simply because it isn't is immaterial.
Yep.
Lotta leftists need to be aborted.
I couldn't agree more! A right to an abortion? That is a surgical procedure. And a costly one at that to kill babies! How are we supposed to carry on a society? And what does that say about the value of life? I heard many women say that it's their womb. Well, what do you think a womb is for? This is a nonsensical argument for a 'right' that our forefathers would have thought us to be crazy for even brining up.
Claiming that this decision is a violation of an unenumerated right to abortion is ridiculous.
First, that would only matter if the decision was overturning a federal law. The federal government doesn't have the power granted to it in the constitution to regulate abortion. But instead, all this decision does is returns the legal framework back to the states and their general police power (which the feds lack).
Second, there's no unenumerated right to abortion. No legislature nor court in the first 100 years of the country thought there was a "right to an abortion". It was made up 50 years or so ago to serve a political purpose and was always based on poor legal reasoning, as acknowledged even by legal professionals who are in favor of legal abortion.
Look, Pretty-Boy Preet! Damon just cited Common Law! And might I add, even when post-"quickening" abortion was outlawed, it was never treated as capital murder!
Now go change your font and text coloring and stop looking and talking stupid!
Lol is there something magical about "by 1900 they had..." . They were wrong then and they are wrong now. GQP and their precessors need to keep their child diddling hands out of my pants and the pants of other women. Body autonomy is as important as any other right that people have and just as obvious.
For the pro abortion crowd, we would have to deem the fetus as non-existent. That would me that nothing exists in the womb. So why not leave it alone then and see what happens. Why go and put your legs in stirrups and 'scrape out' the non life? We are supposed to be more intelligent than this. This is how a society continues. And by the way, most rich people don't have abortions. Why is that? We just want to eliminate the 'deplorable' poor and minorities as Margaret Sanger intended?
The Declaration of Independence IS and was the FIRST Constitution that bound the several states under ideals, regulation and right until the several states had time to create their own Constituons and meet to create a Federal one. Since the Civil War the Supreme Court has pushed it aside because it TELLS THE PEOPLE WHEN THEY MUST RISE UP AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT AND NOT ONLY ALLOWS BUT REQUIRES IT, which is in opposition to the North being allowed to War with the South. The Declaration id Independence can NOT be pushed aside.
Go back and re-read the 9th amendment. I can't believe that so many people so sure of the "it isn't enumerated in the Constitution" argument do not know about the 9th amendment. I can't believe the SC was so ignorant of it.
I heard many women say that it's their womb.
Was it not their womb when they were banging that dude? Was it not their womb when they could have used a myriad of birth control methods? 99% of the abortion debate, is the shirking of responsibility and the maintenance of sexual deviancy. Stop creating things inside your womb to be murdered.
For example.
Ask a democrat, who is ready to abort their baby at a moments notice if they feel inconvenienced, if crushing a eagle egg kills an eagle. They will say yes. LOL. Ask them if crushing a turtle egg kills a turtle. They will say yes. LOL. Now ask them if an abortion kills a baby, or deprives a human being of their life. They will say "It's just a clump of cells."
LOL
No...THAT is OK. For any other reason, yes, it'd be horrifying.
You're aware states can make it legal if they so wish, right? Dobbs does not prevent.
I have no clear idea what the verb "does" in your sentence is supposed to convey. Try again.
Stop ordering others how to live, how to "create". It's their body, their choice! It's none of your business to order others how to live. They are not telling you how to live, e.g., your responsibilities. You do you, and leave others alone to do the same.
Authority penetrates to that very deepest level of human coersion possible. You must be a very authoritative person.
You don't have the right to live if you won't take responsibility for your life.
Go fuck yourself.
"You do you, and leave others alone to do the same."
..."unless it's a living being you created in your pursuit of pleasure. In that case, crush that other's inconvenient little skull and snuff out its innocent life."
"It's none of your business to order others how to live."
Right. So if I murder someone - it's none of your business? You can STFU? Or not? Do you want to live in a place where people can murder others in the privacy of their own home... or?
Someone has poisoned your mind and filled it with hate and fear. And I’ll bet you anything they made money doing it. And you let them.
Someone has poisoned your mind and filled it with hate and fear. And I’ll bet you anything they made money doing it. And you let them.
When does human life begin? At a zygote?
Do we have funerals for miscarries of a zygote? Do we even keep the result, put it in a casket? I have not heard of such. Is this a mistake all humanity has been making since the beginning of civilization?
The question: When does humanity begin? At conception? Is that speck a human being? Or, a beginning of a long process that may end in a human, or something else? There are organisms that are products of sperm/egg that are not human. What are they? When does a fertilization become a person?
These complex questions are not simple, obvious. Neither are they social. They are personal, unique for each of us. Therefore, a political answer is not possible, except to say there are questions that are outside the purview of politics, i.e., outside our social life.
Are you serious?
We don’t define human life with “funerals”. Trailer trash.
Would you even accept the science if you could understand it?
When does human life begin? At a zygote?
Do we have funerals for miscarries of a zygote?
Good question. Why to the abortion-on-demand fanatics (never more than 25% of the population even after 50 years of Roe) refuse to make the differentiation? Why do you think it's either a zygote or a fully formed being?
Well said
Yeah, I don’t think that will be refuted.
You could expand on your perspective of accusing people of offensive ridiculous fearmongering to coercively manipulate dialogue.
Hahaha
So you want that big government, but only for things your want it for. LOL typical LINO who is actually a republican.
I’m very surprised to see the comments here. They reinforce my impression that libertarianism is intellectually vapid, shallow, and self-serving refuge for narrow minded reactionaries.
The “right” at issue is NOT the “right to life of an entity that might eventually become an autonomous human”. The right at issue is the one held by the already autonomous mother to liberty and freedom regarding her own body, and her right to NOT be constrained or limited by government mandate, no matter which state she happens to live in.
It is the responsibility of the Supreme Court to ensure that these right may NOT be abridged under the US Constitution in ANY state. They have failed to fulfill this responsibility.
Most of the other comments here that define abortion as murder, and then on that basis DESCRIBE abortion as murder are guilty of circular reasoning of the most insipid order.
Just reinforces my impression that a magazine having the arrogance to call itself “Reason” is unlikely to be an exemplar of reason.
I'll take Jane's Madison over Jane's Revenge.
There are consequences for killing another person. The only issue is whether a pre-born human is a live person.
If you are old and pass out and no brain waves are detected, you are no longer treated as a living person. Same standard should apply to the newly conceived human; brain waves and you are a person with all that entails. This occurs at 16-20 weeks.
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"The “right” at issue is NOT the “right to life of an entity that might eventually become an autonomous human”. "
It's already a human being.
"Autonomy" does not define a human - if so, all infants, small children, wheelchair bound or otherwise profoundly disabled people and most extremely elderly people would be defined as "not human".
There are good arguments up to a point for the rights of the mother, but the most cringeworthy, illogical argument the left has come up with for abortion rights is "it isn't a baby!" This requires either a serious level of sociopathy or downright willful ignorance, and it has been used against you to great effect. Every pregnant woman who wishes to remain pregnant refers to what is in her uterus as "my baby". Every single one of them. Try asking a happy pregnant woman how her fetus is doing! You will be lucky not to get smacked.
Well you managed to insult nearly everyone here and demonstrate that you don't even know those you insulted. Reason staff is almost completely pro choice. And, most of the posters here hate Reason more than you. You can call all libertarians vapid and self serving, but what they understand that you apparently don't is that while the mother does indeed have rights, so does the child. When do those rights begin? It is a tough question. And at some point we must decide to protect the child and decide how to deal with those competing rights. Libertarians can come down on either side of the issue.
The problem is that it would not be a right to abortion - it would be a right to bodily autonomy. We would have to agree upon a Non Aggression Principle. No controlled substances, no prohibition of the sex trade, no vaccine mandates, no stay-at-home orders, etc.... Neither Democrats nor Republicans will ever go for that.
This. Correct to the ultimate degree! 🙂
Right. Because crushing a babies skull and sucking out their brains to avoid responsibility and maintain a life of pleasure isn't shallow or self serving.
code>No it's not! Nobody gives a flying fuck what she does with her body. it's her body, it's her choices. It's only that one fucking time she decides to make a baby, and then crush it's skull and suck it's brains out. That's the fucking problem. What the fuck! I thought this was reason.com. Let me check the fucking URL.
Again with the retarded libertarians. The same argument could be said of murder itself. Is murder not "constrained or limited by government mandate" - of course it is.
Further, it is NOT the responsibility of the supreme court to protect your delusional fairy-tale rights. You don't have a right to kill babies. Zero clauses in the constitution address baby killing when it was written. Bunch of weirdos here.
The word "privilege" has been overused to destruction by the progressive crowd - but it's original political use was, in fact, meant for the wealthy who act "above the law" or live as if "by private law" (privi - lege) so that the laws that are applied to us lesser beings are not inconveniences they have to bother with. This is nothing new and is not confined to abortion exceptions for the very rich man's mistress/daughter.
At conception, one cell, or, two cell?
You do realize there are more stages beyond that, right?
Do we have funerals for miscarries of a zygote? Do we even keep the result, put it in a casket? I have not heard of such.
You do also realize that there's actually a cottage industry for couples who lose a baby prematurely to have a picture taken with the fetus, yes?
Apparently the only difference between a "clump of cells" and "a baby" is whether it's been decided to carry it to term, which is hardly a scientific distinction.
Cope, seethe, and dilate.
You pasted this already, you waste of carbon molecules.
If that's true, then what the fuck are you going to do about it? Nothing. Except fuck off to a blue state where you can kill babies. Freak.
Except the guy on your side admitted that he snacks on Amber Heard's bedroom presents.
The only issue is whether a pre-born human is a live person.
No, it isn't. The rules of all societies including ours provide for the taking of a human life under some circumstances. In your next paragraph, you pointed one out yourself—we regard living humans as being no longer persons when their brain activity becomes undetectable.
How about Custer’s Revenge?
Ridiculous. The Articles of Confederation were the FIRST Constitution of the US. The Current Constitution is the SECOND. The Declaration of Independence wasn't a Constitution at all, in any way.
The idea that exiting the umbilical canal turns a non-person into a person is well beyond retarded.
The question is addressed to Jack, as in "...It's a fact, but as the point of this article argues - and Alito actually DOES in his opinion - it's not relevant."
From the headnotes is appears that what Alito ACTUALLY does is address the question of the assessing the validity of a claimed unenumerated right at significant length, contra Root's bogus claim that for him "unenumerated constitutional rights are inherently suspect" in some unjustified fashion. (Claimed unenumerated constitutional rights are OF COURSE inherently suspect. The headnotes gives a couple examples of such possible bogus claims.)
The child has rights from the moment of its existence when it begins life, conception.
Anything else is murder.
"It's already a human being".
This is a simple assertion. That does not make it a fact. If it is truly a human being with all the rights and responsibilities thereof, shouldn't a woman be allowed to order that it leave her body? Should rapists be allowed to stay inside a woman just because he got there?
Of course that's ridiculous. It's as ridiculous as equating the potential for life with an actual human being with agency and consciousness. If a fire broke out in a hospital and a nurse fleeing the fire could grab either a two infants or a two test tubes containing fertilized eggs for IVF, which choice would have the moral high ground. Roughly 25% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage- most often before the woman even knows she is pregnant.
To imbue a fetus with personhood requires religion. Imagining that a soul enters at conception is the only way to equate a clump of cells with a living, breathing human being.
Around 23 weeks a fetus' lungs are formed fully enough to trasnsfer oxygen from air into the blood stream. Recent improvements in NICUs have been able to bring this down to 21-22 weeks. Before that, a fetus cannot survive on its own. Not even for a few minutes. If pre-viable fetuses are going to be given the rights of personhood they should also be given the responsibilities thereof. Maybe don't call it abortion. Just call it eviction.
Religion offers certain answers to some completely unknowable questions. It's called "faith" because there is no empirical evidence for its tenets. If we are going to allow faith to provide answers to unknowable questions we also have to accept the religious contention that abortion is a requirement. Proof isn't a one-way street.
The easiest, most reasonable answer is to return to the limitations set forth in Roe. When a fetus becomes a legal person when it becomes viable. I have yet to hear a single argument for prohibiting abortion before that point that is not grounded in some religious faith. Faith alone is a completely unreasonable basis for determining public policy.
I've referred to them as "w9uld-be bundles of joy" with no ill consequence. Probably because the pregnant women knew that what I said was true.
And pregnancy does not absolve one from NAP, or the Edict of The Knights, Ladies, and Trans-Jesters Who Say: "NIFF!" (Non-Initiation of Force and Fraud.)
Once, there was a pregnant woman was convicted of assault on a child because a child told her: "I know what you've been doing."
No initiation of force is justified Because Fecund Vagina. Period. Or no period.
An assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Simply making that claim doe not make it true. Life is very different from a potential for life. Why stop at conception? Why not regulate all of a woman's eggs- they all hold that potential. And why not consider male masturbation a crime? Those sperm all have that potential. Why not legislate the mandatory fertilization of eggs?
What about the fact that somewhere around 25% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage? Should the woman be held liable for murder if she miscarries? What if she doesn't provide the absolute best care to her fetus? Should she receive child support for the first few months of pregnancy even if she miscarries?
When life begins is a hugely complex question. Religious faith offers a simple answer, but that doesn't make it true. If we knew it was true we wouldn't call it faith, and the Constitution guarantees people can believe anything they want to believe. Aside from religious faith, what convinces you that life begins at conception?
Let’s resolve your confusion.
Irrefutable human science demonstrates that from conception living individual human DNA exists in the unborn cells that are alive.
They grow along a curve of time vs development from conception until death. That can be nothing other than a living human person just like you are.
The unborn are better than you who advocate murder.
You may dismiss the irrefutable science and logic but that only demonstrates your bigotry.
“Since its own conception, the science of embryology has recognized that the union of sperm and egg gives rise to a new human being who then embarks upon an unbroken continuum of development until natural death.“
Educate yourself on the science of human life and the history of disinformation that you have swallowed hook line and sinker.
http://www.hli.org/resources/the-conception-conundrum/
A curious definition of humanity from a man who denies the clear-as-day murder of millions of living, vuable, actual, sapient human beings under Nazism!
Fuck Off, Nazi!
You would find my use of logic and science to prove what I claim and refute what I deny, curious.
While you invoke Godwin’s law for your argument.
Hahaha.
Freethinkman, I think the figure for miscarriage may be higher. Some have said 50-80 percent. Nevertheless, what you say is absolutely spot on and using the standard of "potential life," every pre-menopausal woman is Lizzie Borden every month and every man is Adolf Eichmann every time he gets an erection.
But don't tell Misek that or he'll never leave his bed...and like a teenaged boy, he'll claim it never happened!
Do you even care that you are teaching your child not to prove what they claim or refute what they deny.
But your religion is based on lies and the Satan you worship.
Thank you.
They want embryos viable so they can sit there in the same room together and be commanded not to resemble zygote nor fetus.
Because if their authority always extends without exception to every mother's womb then If you do not know what you want, you'll probably be ordered to receive something else, yes?
If I invite someone into my home, and they refuse to leave, can I kill them?
I'd want to live in a place where I wouldn't have to endure cotton candy-colored text. Is that your hair color too?
I do it to annoy sensitive cupcakes.
"Authoritarian" is the word you seek. One can be "authoritative" in a good, expert way without being an "Authoritarian."
Correction: "Would-be bundles of joy." And I'm still not sorry for using the term.
Agreed. Even Robert Bork called the 9th Amendment "an ink blot" (or, dare I say, a blob of ink.)
If this Amendment were carried to the hilt, and exercised completely, slavery could have been abolished without war and maybe even without legal repercussions, since the truth of freedom of slave by Natural Rightwould be universally understood.
Uh, except for the fact that one right can’t deny another.
The inalienable right to life means that women will never have the right to kill the unborn persons within them.
You both deny the constitution and advocate murder and then call someone other than yourself a Nazi.
Hahaha
You are advocating for a right to murder the unborn persons like slaves.
Bork was willing to rubber stamp nearly any government power grab (especially by Republicans?), so as far as I can see he regarded the entire bill of rights and every clause in the original constitution that aimed to limit federal power as ink blots. He was as bad a choice for the SC as Merrick Garland, although in the direction of complete inactivism regardless of the Constitution instead of overreaching activism by distorting the Constitution.
Unfortunately, not one Senator properly opposed his nomination for that reason. Instead, the Democrats had to make up crap irrelevant to his likely decisions as a Justice. They were lying and breaking their oath of office, while the Republicans supporting him were breaking their oath of office by turning a blind eye to the truth.
The Declaration of Independence was the first formal statement by a nation’s people asserting their right to choose their own government.
When armed conflict between bands of American colonists and British soldiers began in April 1775, the Americans were ostensibly fighting only for their rights as subjects of the British crown. By the following summer, with the Revolutionary War in full swing, the movement for independence from Britain had grown, and delegates of the Continental Congress were faced with a vote on the issue. In mid-June 1776, a five-man committee including Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and Benjamin Franklin was tasked with drafting a formal statement of the colonies’ intentions. The Congress formally adopted the Declaration of Independence—written largely by Jefferson—in Philadelphia on July 4, a date now celebrated as the birth of American independence.
lol everyday is hetero day. Just like every day is white-male-christian day in America. Quit pulling the victim card when you're in no way a victim.
Now go change your font and text coloring and stop looking and talking stupid!
I'm sorry you didn't like the facts in my post. But I'm sure you'll get over it. What else can you do about it? (hint: nothing.)
Right. Because crushing a babies head and sucking out their brains isn't the actions of an authoritarian.
Oh! Forgot the pink. Here it is again in pink for you.
Right. Because crushing a babies head and sucking out their brains isn't the actions of an authoritarian.
Nope. I'm just stating the majority opinion by the masses was that abortion was abhorrent, and it was universal in every state.
Nobody wants to be in your gross stinking pants where baby killing happens. And nobody cares about your body or what you do with it, to it, or neglect of it, with one exception.... when you make a baby there and then crush it's skull and suck out it's brains. Freak. WTF!
There is a financial test for the free and reduced-price meals, but it's part of a perversely idiotic system that is guaranteed to fail frequently. If parents or guardians are financially unable to fully pay for their kids' food, they can get "foodstamps" (now a limited pre-paid account on a debit card) to buy groceries to feed their kids. But because some of them are too lazy or disorganized to cook meals, instead of taking the children away from the parents who are unable or unwilling to take proper care of them even with full assistance, we're giving all poor families a double benefit for kids in school - while not ensuring proper food for pre-school kids and kids in the summer.
The architects of this system are accessories to child neglect and also irresponsibly squandered public funds.