Congress Wants Taxpayers To Bail Out the Postal Service
The House passed the bill this week with little fanfare and broad bipartisan support.

A first-class stamp costs more than ever, and the U.S. Postal Service (USPS) recently received a $10 billion loan from the federal government as part of a major pandemic relief package passed in 2020.
Now, Congress might force taxpayers to cover the cost of retired postal workers' health care—something for which the supposedly self-financing agency has always been responsible.
With little fanfare and broad bipartisan support, the House of Representatives voted earlier this week to pass the Postal Relief Act of 2022. The bill sweeps retired postal workers into the already strained Medicare system, whether they want to join or not, and excuses the USPS of having to self-fund health benefits for its retirees.
The Washington Post euphemistically describes the arrangement as "relieving [USPS] of tens of billions of dollars in liabilities" and says the bill "wipes clean $57 billion of" future health care costs the USPS expected to have to pay. Of course, those liabilities will still exist—retired postal workers will get routine medical care, require hospitalization, receive prescriptions, and the like—but those costs will no longer show up on the service's ledger. Instead, it will be the rest of the American work force, which funds Medicare via payroll taxes, footing the bill.
There's no doubt that the USPS is in need of a serious overhaul. It's been hemorrhaging money for years—more than $78 billion in red ink since 2007—thanks to a business model that the Government Accountability Office has termed "unsustainable."
But it's unclear how this latest plan will address the underlying problems. The USPS and the union that represents postal workers seem more interested in shifting costs onto taxpayers—something they are also trying to do with the USPS's massive pension obligations—than make the changes necessary to keep this monopolistic, archaic government service functional.
Many of the USPS's underlying problems stem from an "inability to adapt to changing markets, congressional impediments, and union quagmires," wrote a collection of conservative and free market groups in a letter to Congress opposing the Postal Service Reform Act. "Many of the reforms provided for in H.R. 756 lead USPS further away from the core mission of mail delivery, unfairly shift the Postal Service's financial burdens onto the American public, and fail to address many of the underlying issues facing USPS."
As Reason's Christian Britschgi wrote last year in a feature-length exploration of the USPS's many, many issues, the idea to put retired postal workers into Medicare doesn't make much sense for anyone. "If the USPS stops putting money down today to cover tomorrow's retiree benefits, there are obvious risks for both postal workers, whose pensions would be less secure, and taxpayers, who could be called on to cover the costs of these unfunded obligations whenever the bill comes due," Britschgi explained.
That's doubly true because Medicare is also on shaky fiscal ground. Parts of the program are on track to be insolvent—meaning that Medicare will be unable to pay the full cost of promised benefits—in less than five years.
It wouldn't be accurate to describe Congress' plan to shift workers from the underfunded USPS health care plan into Medicare as rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. No, it's more like moving deck chairs from the Titanic to the Lusitania.
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The government wants taxpayers to bail everybody out.
That money is free money. Why not use it? The mentality of the politicians and 90% of the voters, is why not? As long as the voters don't directly see it coming out of their paycheck today, they're fine with it. Both sides.
Because the problem is not the taxes, the problem is the spending. And both sides jack off to more spending. The only difference between the two sides is that one tries to hand wave away where the money comes from. But they both love more and more spending.
Nailed it.
https://simulationcommander.substack.com/p/inflation-and-you
Rest assured, whatever Biden and his team come up with, it will work just as well as everything else the government has touched in the last…….well, my whole lifetime. Meanwhile, the answer to getting inflation under control is staring us in the face: Remove the barriers we’ve placed in front of the economy. Dismantle all the stupid covid rules. Hire back the people who were fired (if they will have you). Stop Congress from spending so much money every year. And above all, stop creating so many dollars out of thin air!
And do it quick, before the situation calls for a modern-day Paul Volker to jack up interest rates into double digits.
Brandybuck... I don't want to bail out everybody. How about privatizing the the mail delivery system? It will force our military personnel stationed overseas to pay lot more (FedX, UPS, etc) to send letters home and their families living in rural America will really pay from privatization of mail system. I must change sides to the progressive viewpoint {Don't Privatize}. At least until my little brother [US Airforce Airman] returns home.
We JUST BAILED THEM OUT....
AGAIN?????????
W T F ??????
Biden must want to buy postal workers votes.
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"Brandybuck..."
Oh, the Brandyshit, still trying to justify his TDS!
Hey, Brandyshit! Stuff your TDS up your ass; your head is already there and asking for company, you pathetic excuse for humanity
Overseas mail from military personnel can be addressed separately. So privatize.
I make 85 dollars each hour for working an online job at home. KLA I never thought I could do it but my best friend makes 10000 bucks every month working this job and she recommended me to learn more about it. The potential (cdc06) with this is endless.
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Except the taxpayers.
The first step forward would be is if DeJoy is fired. He's made already-bad situations far worse since he's headed the USPS, thanks to Donald Trump, who put DeJoy in there, for the purpose of privatizing the USPS. He's screwing everybody.
"...thanks to Donald Trump,..'
Stuff your TDS ups your ass; your head is already there and hoping for company, steaming pile of lefty shit.
the bill "wipes clean $57 billion of" future health care costs the USPS expected to have to pay. ... Instead, it will be the rest of the American work force, which funds Medicare via payroll taxes, footing the bill.
Obviously the solution is simply another bill that wipes clean the $57 billion from the American work force.
Who wipes clean SleepyJoe?
The US Diaper Czar.
Jill?
the can has been kicked how many times?
Its no longer a can!
Over a decade ago, the USPS made a deal with congress: In return for being given the authority to set its own stamp prices, they would have to fund the hell out of their pensions and health care systems. They did this specifically, and intentionally because they KNEW that the demand for physical post was decreasing and eventually the USPS would go out of business.
Less than 5 years later, the USPS Unions were running ads on TV talking about how unfair it was that congress mandated that the USPS spend so much money on retirement programs. It is one big racket. The USPS should be declared insolvent right now. The fact that they almost went bankrupt during the pandemic- when everyone in the country was getting everything delivered to them- shows just how terrible the service there has become.
I ordered several things during the pandemic at about the same time and the delivery time gap between the various services was VAST.
Amazon Delivery: 1-2 days
FedEx / UPS: 3-4 days
USPS: 2-3 WEEKS.
I got a call from my sister-in-law to see if I would be attending my niece's baptism. She had sent me a postcard invitation by mail a month prior to the celebration, and hadn't heard from me. It hadn't arrived yet. She lives across town.
Yeah, the Lisa
Tal service is pretty worthless and unaccountable. I absolutely hate when a vendor ships to me using them.
The problem came when legacy Gimmement jobs favored for security started piling up perks.
nothing says " irrelevant " like Username Sevo!
Exactly.
The lefty shits posting here whine that the USPS should not be required to fund the benies to which it has agreed!
I wish it was surprising.
Not until the occupy downtown with postal trucks.
Why pick on the Post Office? It's one of the few federal entities actually mentioned in the Constitution. Yes, it costs money, but so does every other agency. Why not first attack an extra-constitutional outfit that does real damage, like the EPA?
I know, I know, Reason is paid to shill for UPS, FedEx, Amazon and the like, but these businesses are doing well without squashing the Post Office.
If all the competition is doing well, and you are not, what does that say?
Technically, only the roads to be used by whoever delivers the mail; nothing about the feds actually being the only ones to deliver mail.
As I mentioned below, the mail used to be delivered by private contractors, and in rural communities still is.
The postal service used to be extremely small, made up of appointed postmasters who then contracted with private individuals and companies to handle the actual mail delivery and maintain post offices. In rural communities almost all mail is still delivered by private contractors (rural mail deliverers are private contractors, who operate their own vehicles). This business model works, but if you mention privatizing mail delivery, the progressives get all up in arms.
Yeah... soldiermedic76... privatizing the the mail delivery system will force our military personnel stationed overseas to pay lot more (FedX) to send letters home and their families living in rural America to really pay for privatization of mail. I must change side to the progressive viewpoint... at least until my US Airforce little brother returns home.
Not necessarily, companies will compete to carry the mail. Hell, they could ship letters and such by corporate airlines (it's how a lot of overseas mail is already delivered). And don't play the fucking poor serviceman routine on me. My user name isn't just a user name. I'm fourth generation army, my son is fifth. My nephew is in AIT at Ft. Leonard Wood.
It's funny you think the USPS flies overseas to collect mail, it's all shipped by private contractors from overseas already.
Surely your little brother in the US Airforce knows how to use his free military email account.
Yeah, Jack Bauer, you
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
program managers wanna manage.
What good is a tiny kingdom?
Make more to manage. Pad that CV.
Millions more dollars in retirement.
A bronze parachutes not so attractive.
Golden is better!
When's the last time anyone here read the text of the 1873 Comstock Law? The mails were for the next century used to ban birth control, smut and "disloyal" literature, and that year's Panic (Crash) threw the nation into a deep depression. Search "Republicans Banned ALL Birth Control"
Yeah we get it. You love murdering babies, and hate religion, and republicans. You’re a huge bigot.
I concur. Funding the USPS is a Constitutional obligation; "The Congress shall have Power ... To establish Post Offices and post Roads". US Const, Art I, Sec 8, Cl 7. And in many regions it is the essential service.
If "UPS, FedEx, Amazon and the like ... are doing well", the reason for it is beyond me. When there was more competition for those companies - remember DHL, Airborne, etc. - there was more incentive to provide good service. Consolidation of competition, generally and in particular in this arena, almost always results in deterioration.
In my instance I have resolved, if possible, to only purchase goods from companies that allow shipping by the USPS. In my experience, the services provided by UPS and FedEx, and the latter in particular, are abominable, viz, delivery to wrong addresses and depositing of packages in bizarre locations for the convenience of the drivers rather than the recipient.
It reminds me of the response by George Bailey, about the Bailey Bros Savings and Loan, roughly to the effect: "we need this one-horse institution if only so people don't have to crawl to Potter" ...
That establishes the power to do so; it does not establish and obligation.
If you can't live somewhere without federal subsidies to the USPS, perhaps you should simply move. Federal tax payers don't owe you the ability to live in a region of your choice.
"UPS, FedEx, and Amazon all ship through the Post Office while having large distribution systems of their own. Why? For things that are not as profitable as overnight mail it is cheaper for them to ship through the Post Office than deliver themselves. Why? Because Congress, not the Post Office sets the rates, and Congress sets them artificially low. That means Congress is not only subsidizing the Post Office, but they are subsidizing "UPS, FedEx, and Amazon. Keep that in mind!
"the union that represents postal workers"
There's your problem.
Bohem complaining that he got what he voted for and supported, what a refreshing take
If not for the USPS, people in rural Alaska for example could never send or receive mail. I have no idea of what it costs to fly post in and out of these villages, but it can't be cheap. I suppose I could get an idea by running the prices of UPS or FedEx to someplace in BFE, but I'm too lazy.
Is this a job for government? I think so. Have the incompetents in the USPS fucked it all up? Definitely.
I've got a family member who is part of that organization. According to him they'll shut down an office, fire all the worker bees, but keep paying the manager to do nothing. Not sure how accurate that is being he's the president of the local USPS union, but it probably contains a grain or two of truth.
What's the solution? I dunno. Fire the lot of them and start over?
You're right. It's not only every American's responsibility to fund pension and health cost for postal workers, but their responsibility to make sure some tiny percentage of fellow residents don't have to pay the costs associated with choices they have made.
Flood insurance...can't have people live in coastal areas bear the cost of their own protection.
Crop insurance...can't have farmers bear the risk of their own profession.
Too big to fail...can't have banks bear the enormous costs of their own risk management failuresfoolishness.
If those remote Alaskans want mail service, they can either move somewhere that regular deliveries are possible or pay the full costs of having it delivered.
You must have been in a hurry and not read my last sentence.
Your last sentence is meaningless. It is not a solution. It doesn't suggest any changes or pinpoint any problems.
In other words, it's typical sarcasmic, full of weak sound and impotent fury, signifying nothing.
I see what you did there.
"It is a tale told by an idiot." Indeed.
Oh dang! I had forgotten that part of the quote, but it sure does apply. Good catch!
Exactly. My response below didn't address that explicitly, but it is definitely part of privatization. If some little podunk wants daily service, someone living there can make that round trip daily. It probably wouldn't even cost more, since almost certainly someone in even the smallest town will drive that way every day, for work, groceries, etc, and if it truly is a real small town, one of those people will volunteer out of a sense of community. Maybe the local part time postmaster will throw in a couple of bucks for the few extra minutes it takes and the extra mileage for gas and wear and tear.
This is not a hard problem, at all. It just requires privatization. Leaving it in the hands of government, government cronies, and government unions, is just begging for expansion like all government bureaucracies.
Rural route carriers are already private contractors, and we get mail delivered daily.
Who pays for the private delivery contractors?
I'm not an anarchist. There are things government should do. Yep. It's heresy around here to some but I'll day it again. There are things government should do. And facilitate communication could be argued as one of them. Should the USPS go away because of email and other modern means of communication? Perhaps. But that's a different argument.
And compare that to your protest above that your last sentence was ignored! Wups, yep, nothing new. Your "fire the lot and start over" only means a new crop of government cronies.
You are a damned statist and proud of it. Fuck off, slaver.
There are things government should do. Yep. It's heresy around here to some but I'll day it again. There are things government should do. And facilitate communication could be argued as one of them.
I agree that there are few things that the government "should" do. Maybe "facilitate communication" is one of them, maybe it isn't. That argument could be expanded to include subsidies and government control for everything from the Post Office to the internet to text messages to carrier pigeon. At a minimum we can agree that there is an argument can be had on the merits of that statement.
Your view that no one should bear their share of the costs of that policy are where we differ. First class mail should cost $20 to deliver to those remote outposts, not 58 cents or whatever a stamp costs. And it definitely should not cost US taxpayers $57 billion+ to do it.
As Various A's outlines, the gap in mail deliveries should the Post Office cease to exist could easily be filled by UPS or FedEx or courier service almost overnight. The only difference is that instead of me paying to have Nanook's mail delivered to him in the middle of nowhere, he'd have to pay for it himself because he made a choice to incur that additional cost.
But you know that's the real argument. You also know that allows anyone to make a case for nearly anything they think the government "should do" being fully subsidized so you respond with some bullshit "Libertarians want Somalia" argument about anarchy and non-existent government.
As I said below to jeff, as long as sending papers is a requirement for dealing with the government, then the government has a responsibility to facilitate such communication. If the courts got onboard with Verisign or something then it would be a different conversation.
There are things government should do.
Yes. Quit asserting powers not granted by the Constitution. Quit demanding more money to support failed programs. And quit holding unconscionable contracts they made with themselves as sacrosanct.
Really, they should just quit.
Article I, Section 8 "To establish Post Offices and post Roads;"
It is not mandatory. It is allowed.
To establish Post Offices
It is no longer necessary to hold my mail until I have a chance to pick it up once a month when I ride my horse-drawn wagon into town to pick up supplies. If I do need it held, well, $10 billion = $50 per taxpayer. We could just keep our money and get a PO box at the UPS store.
and post Roads
Moot. And I must have missed the part where they were authorized to buy planes.
Move the goalposts much?
I agree that the Post Office is comically wasteful like everything government does. But as I (and jeff) said, as long as sending pieces of paper is a requirement for dealing with the government, then there is a legitimate argument for socializing the cost of sending those pieces of paper back and forth.
Digitize all dealings with the government and the argument for government post offices gets really weak. But then the argument becomes one of broadband access or whatever is required for digital communication.
Same idea as being given counsel if you can't afford it. So maybe privatize the USPS but require the government to pay for communication both ways as jeff suggested?
It's slightly more complicated than "Guvmint baaaaah baaaah baa-aad!'
No. Just because the government wants to do something does not mean the citizenry has to go along with obsolete practices. Government is supposed to serve the public, not the other way round. Just because government bureaucrats want to continue sending pieces of printed mail is no reason for the public to have to put up with an obsolete method.
Sarcasmic, I actually do not disagree. If the Post Office did only what it was permitted to do, then it would not be an issue.
But it would also not have the financial problems it has.
At this point, we are currently throwing money into a never ending pit. We have to shut it down because we cannot afford to keep it.
Which is why my original post ended with "What's the solution? I dunno. Fire the lot of them and start over?"
Thing is, the only fix is to completely privatize them. Congress has proven, for decades, they will do nothing beneficial for it since the unions contribute to campaigns and pols are whores, obviously.
We have to privatize the whole thing and allow a bankruptcy proceeding to deal with the debt that we cannot afford it.
Most of the Post Office woes are a direct result of unions and their promises.
Even FDR opposed public sector unions.
As I said earlier, I've got a family member who is a mail carrier and a proud union guy. Even he admits that the union raises costs astronomically. But because he personally benefits he of course supports the union.
If I was king, rather than shutting down the Post Office I'd ban all unions for people paid by tax dollars.
It wouldn't solve everything, but it'd be a damn good start.
If I was king
You would immediately be assassinated. People can tolerate the ravings of syphilis-ridden inbreds. They can't help themselves. Your gaslight-trolling is insufferable.
Move the goalposts much?
You are such a disingenuous cunt. I didn't move the goalposts one fucking inch. You posted Article 1, Section 8 and I pointed out that it was moot.
Every time you get a direct response, you flick the gaslights. You don't even bother to hide behind the curtains. You just stand there and flick the switch while claiming we must be crazy, the lights are not flickering.
And you can shove your witless rejoinder right up your ass. The USPS isn't 'wasteful. It's fucking moot.
Post offices were originally contracted in places of business. Carrying and delivering mail was originally contracted, and still is for overseas mail and rural carriers. The federal government used to appoint a postmaster for each district, whose sole job was to contract mail delivery. Interstate mail was contracted to stagecoach and rail companies. Private businesses and individuals openly competed for these contracts.
You’re not special or a rebel for saying that government should do some things. In fact, that’s pretty much everyone who comments here.
Oh bullshit. You can use your imagination and see a solution without much trouble. A small town, population 100. Who picks up and delivers mail? First off, you don't need a full time postmaster. The local grocery store or gas station can do it as a sideline. If the town is too small to have any store or have anyone who can handle it, then it's too small to exist.
This collection point can also have PO Boxes for delivery.
Now how to get that mail to the next bigger town for distribution, or pick up mail from that distribution point? Well golly, do people from that town never go anywhere? Could no one pick it up or drop it off? Use locked and sealed containers to preserve privacy and prevent pilfering.
Or someone from that distribution point could make a trip once a day to all the surrounding podunk postmasters. Or once a week -- no reason little tiny towns need daily service if they are so extraordinarily small that they only process, say, a dozen letters a week, plus magazines and bills which certainly aren't urgent.
A private postal system would be incredibly efficient compared to the mess we have today. Use what little brain you have to estimate the costs. I bet stamps would only cost half as much in a privatized system.
Here's an expansion of that idea, showing how people can pay for the level of service they want.
Whether a post office retail point is a sideline at the grocery or a private home, or a full-blown big city enterprise with hundreds of employees, they have to get their mail from and to the wholesale distribution points. Distribution points charge for their processing and redistribution, presumably less if pre-sorted and standardized, more for unsorted, odd sizes, packages, special handling, etc. Anyone can show up at their loading dock with outgoing mail; just pay the price.
Distribution points will split all mail for local delivery or outbound to other distribution points. Local delivery will mean either holding it for pickup (which is lower cost) or using their own redistribution vehicles (at higher cost).
Long distance redistribution will be by contractors, and again could be split by priority, either by different transport (trucks, trains, airplanes, ships, pony express) or priority (messenger, next regular schedule, space available).
There may or may not be stamps. No stamp means ordinary default handling. High and low priority stamps are tracked for apportioning the different costs.
All this could be handled entirely without any national organization or even national standards; anyone could take mail to distribution centers. Obviously any retailer or distributor would have to know about standards of their contacts, such as addressing, envelope sizes and weights, content restrictions, etc.
Receiving mail from distribution centers, the retail side, would require contracts, not just for security, but so the distributors know about the new postal code, if the retailer wants scheduled and/or priority delivery or will always pick up mail, and who to contact if the retailer doesn't pick up mail for a while.
This is not a hard problem. It does not require a federal bureaucracy frozen by Congress.
Hey Alphabetroll, why are you replying to my comments? You literally begged me to put you on mute so I won't read or reply to your comments. You said "Please mute me, I want to be cool like JesseAZ, Mother's Lament, and the rest of the insult trolls."
Yet you reply to my posts? Why? Virtue signaling to the other girls?
This is a rhetorical comment. To the stupids (you know who you are) that means I don't expect a reply, and if Alphabetroll replies I won't read or reply. I respect his wishes.
Because it is so fun to know you are reading my posts anyway, either logged out or not actually muted makes no difference. I rub my hands in glee every time you do respond. You make my day.
And I don't even have to bait you. All I need do is respond, and you get all a-flutter with faux outrage. It is a very satisfying moment.
What do you call someone who is constantly dropping comments that will not be read or responded to by the recipient? If you guessed "troll" then you just won two gold stars.
So why is Alphabetroll posting a reply to all of my posts?
Is he begging me to unmute him like he begged (and I mean this literally, dude begged) to be muted? Doubtful. Is he trying to impress the the other insult trolls? More than likely. So what does that make him? Yep. My thoughts exactly.
What do you call someone who ....
"Sarcasmic" -- did I get it right?
Yes.
This comment shows a complete lack of self awareness.
Other than the occasional response to Ken who has me on mute, and not because I begged him to mute me, who do I constantly reply to who has me on mute?
There are threads were literally every post of mine has a comment from JesseAZ who is on mute. On this one Alphabetroll has posted a comment to almost all of my posts.
If I lack self awareness then the implication is that I do the same thing to other people.
So, do you have a point, or was that just a snipe intended to impress people with the maturity of middle school kids?
*hint* that was a rhetorical question, everyone knows the answer is the latter.
What do you call someone who is constantly dropping comments that will not be read or responded to by the recipient? If you guessed "troll" then you just won two gold stars.
This part. You always respond with bullshit answers that make no sense.
Actually, most everyone agrees it's the former. You constantly mention Jesse and respond to him even though you have him muted for one. You also respond to DesIgNate but claim you have him muted. And Chumby. I can keep going. Often you make a complete fool of yourself in the process and always make a point of saying you didn't read what they said but you can guess because you have them muted. This is no different than people you have muted responding to you. It is complete trolling.
POST THE ENEMIES LIST!
I hope I'm up in the rankings
i know of nothing that i receive via usps that can't be delivered electronically, except for packages. packages can be efficiently delivered by the many private delivery services. in 2022 the usps is not needed.
It's needed if you have to deal with the government.
Why do you demand that We The People follow government diktat, instead of government adjusting its services to what the people do?
If government were still sending telegrams to dead soldier's families, would Western Union still have to maintain telegraph equipment? No, everyone would tell them to fuck off and get with the times.
Fuck off, slaver. You've outed yourself.
that is true today, but it does not need to be in future. seems you completely missed my point. just because some antiquated institution says they need the usps does not mean it's true.
I think we're in agreement. Did you read any other of my comments?
Junk mail?
It's a MONOPOLY. Any who try to compete are kidnapped, robbed and jailed, and shot if they are any good at resisting. Lysander Spooner undercut them before the Civil War.
There's no doubt that the USPS is in need of a serious overhaul.
Overhaul? It's mission has passed. The post roads are already built and maintained separately. Online document delivery is instantaneous and safer too. The only thing most people get in the mail is unwanted advertising.
Sell off the assets and let private companies compete to deliver stuff.
Definitely. I walk my "mail" directly to my recycling bin 4 or 5 days a week.
Daily delivery is such obvious low hanging fruit.
If we got rid of the USPS, private carriers can refuse to deliver unsolicited mail.
GASP! UNINTENDED BENEFITS!
Only a conspiracy theorist would think the dems are dumping everyone they can think of into Medicare in order to create a crisis that "requires" a single payer (government) medical system controlled by fascist sycophants.
Standard "argument from intimidation" format.
Deliver first class mail on Monday.
Deliver packages on Tuesday.
Deliver everything else (junk mail or helpful ads, depending on your view) on Wednesday.
No weekend or overtime pay.
^sort of this^
Outside of businesses, daily delivery probably isn't needed. I rarely check my mail more than once a week. Delivering every other day would likely put a significant dent in costs (labor-wise, one driver could handle 2 routes).
I'm with Homple and sarcasmic on this. Picking on USPS right now seems out of place. This seems like the debates about "privatizing the roads". I suppose in Purist Libertopia, we can have a discussion about how precisely to privatize the roads or how to privatize the post office but right now it seems like a concern not worth losing sleep over.
How about Congress lets them set the postage rates for what it costs to deliver mail instead of playing up to all the fly-over (or no flying there at all, as sarcasmic suggests) crowd? I know how much progressives hate all of those folks 99% of the time. Takers not makers, right? Basket of deplorables? Bitter clingers? Am I missing any?
You can make a legitimate case for the Post Office. I may not agree, but I grant there is a reasonable argument to be made.
There is no reasonable argument for the government to continually subsidize some people's life choices at all taxpayers' expense.
There is no reasonable argument for the government to continually subsidize some people's life choices at all taxpayers' expense.
When it comes to civil rights, yes there is. For example, suppose a very poor person is accused of a crime. Should that person have access to a government-funded defense lawyer? One can think of public defender as "taxpayer subsidization of poor people's choices" (after all, if they had made better choices, they wouldn't be poor and they wouldn't need a public defender, would they?). Most of us would agree that paying for public defenders is a reasonable taxpayer expense because securing the right to due process is a legitimate function of the government.
It is the same with voting. If there is going to be absentee voting, it needs to be available to all who are eligible for it. And if there are going to be paper ballots distributed via the mail, then everyone eligible should have access to that mail service.
Now I would be in favor of a privatized postal service IF AND ONLY IF the government paid the cost of postage *both ways* for official government documents, such as ballots or court papers. But you are illustrating why that compromise is unlikely to be acceptable in some quarters.
"Now I would be in favor of a privatized postal service IF AND ONLY IF the government paid..."
Smells like private enterprise.
"And if there are going to be paper ballots distributed via the mail, then everyone eligible should have access to that mail service."
Your desire for more fortifications is noted.
Highways are needed for evac in the event of nuclear attack. Also for postwar supplies movement to prevent mass starvation. California started its good road system right after Japan surrendered.
Also keep in mind that every citizen does need to have the ability to send and receive official legal documents, such as absentee ballots, court summonses, tax documents, etc.
That's mostly because the legal people (government courts) haven't caught up with technology.
Once they do post will become obsolete. Then we can have a conversation about eliminating or privatizing the USPS. But while sending pieces of paper is a requirement for dealing with the government, then the government needs to facilitate the sending of those pieces of paper.
Well, keep in mind that the MOAR ELECTION SECURITY crowd would have an absolute fit if one were to propose electronic absentee ballots. So if we're going to have paper absentee ballots, the exercise of the right to vote should not be unduly burdened by exorbitant postal costs if a voter lives in a very rural area. In the extreme, it could be considered an illegal poll tax.
I suppose privatizing the post office could be reasonable if it were required that the government would pay for the cost of postage *both ways* for official government documents. But I don't think that would be a popular position among some folks.
At the end of the day there are much bigger problems to deal with at this moment, though.
Your buddies the Democrats are more than happy to send a car to your house to pick up your ballot. They will even fill it out for you.
Why do people in Alaska need to vote anyway?
Really a fundamental right when you think about it. Be wrong of the government to deny anyone the right to mail stuff.
And that can be done the same way it was done during the first century of the US postal service: by private carriers employed for that purpose by the government. Think Uber, just for packages. That’s what the US postal service used to be.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
{wipes tear}
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Ahhhh, that's good. The federal government loaned money to a branch of the federal government.
*Whew* I needed a good laugh.
want a real pants pisser?
." theyll pay it back..."
ROTMFFLMAO
it's long past time for the usps to go. we don't need them and they've clearly demonstrated serious incompetence. they bleed billions every year and the taxpayers keep funding them. this needs to stop. if the usps disappeared tomorrow the open market would step up and provide the services that the public wants.
>>Now, Congress might force taxpayers
there are peaceful, loving ways around the tyranny of Congress.
And why not? How is this different from the highway system? Aside from being obsolete...
So they're not having to budget around pre-funding retirement accounts for 75 years. Which is totally a normal thing for a for-profit enterprise to do and wasn't an attempt to kill the program by people who'd much rather we spent our money with FedEx.
1. The USPS doesn't need to return a profit as long as the people find the service itself of value. The "profit" from stamps and stuff is just a tax paid on a user fee basis. It's all the same dollars, so who gives a shit?
2. The same people who vote for the party of ruining government services are the first ones to whine like little old bitches if their mail doesn't get to them in time. It will be a Democrat's fault, no doubt, even if Trump did that and did it on purpose.
3. You people are the least interesting contributors to this conversation of all, as there is no circumstance in which you'll defend a government program that works well. I have probably said so many times, but you should try not having a strict cult-like ideology around an incredibly smooth-brained premise that "gov't=bad."
You people are the least interesting contributors to this conversation of all, as there is no circumstance in which you'll defend a government program that works well.
First you'll have to define "works well" and then find a government program that does.
And I don't accept "people like it" as an example of "works well."
The US Armed Forces killed Nazis pretty efficiently.
They can only make so many Nazis per news cycle. This is not a sustainable industry.
Not really. WWII was a war of attrition. It sometimes took a dozen or more Shermans to take out one Panzer. We bombed their factories while enjoying geographic security. The war was not won by efficiency.
Do you know anyone in the military? They waste money like it's a joke.
Not saying we should privatize the military. No. However the military is a great example of how government wastes money. Whatever government does is wasteful. That's why the proponents of limited government don't bother to argue about efficiency. Rather we argue about what money will be wasted on, rather than coming up with ideas to make government less wasteful. We live in reality.
Of course I was being facetious, pointing out the fundamental disconnect with libertarians: sometimes I think you care more about what government can do for you than what it should stop doing.
Government is good when it defends borders and property rights, but bad when it supplies health and education.
One gets the impression that the landed want government all to themselves without any dirty poors getting in on the action, and that the ideology is a pure con.
Government is good when it defends borders and property rights, but bad when it supplies health and education.
Borders and property rights are uses of force. Government is good at force because it has a monopoly on the initiation of it, and it trains people very well in using coercion through force and violence.
It's really shitty at doing anything else, like for example providing health care or education.
Citation needed. You're just saying shit. Every country on earth you'd dare set foot in has universal public education and healthcare. None has these things through private market forces alone.
So?
Tony still does not get that National Socialists were socialists... Positive Christian Socialists. They hated liberalism, capital, securities markets and deregulation like any other socialist, and initiated deadly force against all that. Like many Europeans, they were convinced Jews were selfish, but that the trait could be bred out of humanity using racial eugenics. For centuries Christians had burned Jews at the stake. Hitler's platform and books extolled Christianity, yet communists, brainwashed by the 1944 "Hitler's Gang" movie, recite that nazis "weren't really" socialists, but were Christian.
Of course they called themselves socialists. The Cold War hadn't happened yet, and socialism was pretty popular with the regular Joe or Josef.
I'm not a socialist, however, I'm a capitalist, so I don't know what point you're trying to make.
And the big problem with the Nazis was not their generous healthcare system, as you might have read about in school.
You know, the FedEx guy doesn't get away with telling me to 'get the fuck back' if I approach him while he is making a delivery. Or have the power to lien my business if they don't deliver the tax checks that I posted with them.
You must have some supremely dickish mail folks. Or more likely you approached them as a total dick and they just responded like normal people. I know I've never had an unpleasant or threatening encounter with a letter carrier.
LOL! You bitch and whine endlessly about people putting words in your mouth, yet here you are assigning motive and opining about an encounter you didn't witness.
The incident I described happened right in front of my office when a woman approached to get her mail and the carrier still had the adjoining box open. It wasn't even me, douchebag.
"So they're not having to budget around pre-funding retirement accounts for 75 years"
they aren't. while they have to forecast obligations over that time horizon for financial reporting, they are only mandated to pre fund retirement obligations as they are accrued, which is HOW ITS SUPPOSED TO BE.
not pre funding future obligations for work performed in the present is generational theft. this is why all other public pension plans are screwed.
I'd much rather save the USPS than support Ukrainian fascists and "moderate" Syrian terrorists, wouldn't you? And the Constitution actually does have a Postal Clause, you know. Anyone who really wants to spend $8 sending a postcard can already do so with any of the several private couriers.
So medicare will be unable to meet it's obligations in less than five years huh? Nah. Medicare will spend whatever dollars congress tells it to spend and because politicians don't want to push grandma's wheelchair off a cliff their is no limit on those dollars. It's much more likely that dollars will no longer be the world's reserve currency within the next five years. Nobody will buy them and they will be worthless but medicare will absolutely keep cutting checks.
How many times is this now? What was that succinct definitions of insanity/gov't welfare programs again?
Private enterprise can more than fill the gap, and higher rates can only help the junk mail.
Your private entetprise will lead to mass fraud.
Nothing stopping the CARRIERS from stealing your credit cslard account statement and info. Or walk by thieves.
Read the bill. It's a good bill. The Republicans put laws in place to throttle and kill the post office - but the PEOPLE don't want it.
We have the BEST post office service in the world. Some things SHOULD NOT be privatized. They are in the commons where the government SHOULD BE.
And for all you free-marketers - smarten up. The prices only stay low in the acquisition phase, then they either go up or quality suffers. READ ADAM SMITH.
A public mail company? Does it compete with a private mail company? No! It couldn't, so a law forbid competition. How does that protect property rights, competition? It doesn't. How is it justified? It isn't. Neither is coercive govt. No matter. Authoritarianism doesn't justify, it coerces by violence, threats, fraud. But first it brainwashes children to accept force as an unquestionable political paradigm. This short-circuits cognition, questioning, resistance. That's why home schooling is so hated by govt.
Congress does, and always has, set the Postal Service Rates. Taxpayers do and always have subsidized the Post Office.
How about Congress gets out of the way and let's the Post Office manage their own affairs, and see if the Post Service sinks or swims on it's own?
Anything else, including what Reason is selling is just political propaganda.
ESPecially the part about privitazarion and losing SECURITY.
Mail frauds a FELONY.
Not so with private carriers.
Criminals would be all for that.
And Fuck Joe Biden. Cant state that enough.
Yeah, and how's that working?
If I want to send something securely, I send it by private carrier.
Joe Biden fucks you. And you're too dumb to even notice... for now.
The post office is the least of our worries.
Congress will force taxpayers to pay for state and local pensions when states and local communities can't do so; Congress will force the taxpayer to pay for pensions for retired union workers as well; and Congress will bail out the pension funds of big corporations. That's just the political reality.
And both Republicans and Democrats will vote for it.
"Congress will force the taxpayer to pay for pensions for retired union workers as well;"
already happened. look up "pbcg sfa"
The PBGC is currently not paid for by taxpayers. But it will be.
When Petr Beckmann was on the Reason board, The Golem Press sold boxfuls of stamps, perforated and glue-backed. Each showed a turkey and read "Protect the Postal Monopoly against Free Enterprise." There is a reconstruction posted on Tumblr, but I cannot find images of the originals.
At least the rural postal people are well dressed. They keep stealing my wife's Poshmark packages full of hot designed stuff. Hey - they're insured, right? No big fuckin deal. The postal service and public schools need the same treatment - just simple elimination and let the market scramble and create brilliant solutions. I only use UPS or Fedex if it absolutely has to be there.
Many of the USPS's underlying problems stem from an "inability to adapt to changing markets, congressional impediments, and union quagmires," wrote a collection of conservative and free market groups in a letter to Congress opposing the Postal Service Reform Act.
To most free market types, I would think that they'd want to get rid of the USPS entirely and let private businesses do everything the USPS does. After all, the basic problem with the USPS is that it has difficulty competing with FedEx and UPS and the like on the most profitable types of delivery. It is certainly up for argument and debate why that is, but it is core issue. If, on the other hand, those companies could make money on delivering junk mail and ordinary 1st class letters, they would.
This is the problem with the full free market/privatization approach. Private businesses will only fill niches that can be profitable. As another example, there is no market for automakers to sell new cars to people living near or below the poverty line. It simply couldn't be done in a profitable way for people with such limited resources. Even used cars can be out of reach for many of those people, given you also have to pay for maintenance, fuel, and, sometimes, places to park. And if they don't have reliable transportation, getting and holding a decent job that might improve their lot would be much more difficult.
That is why there is public transportation. How many of those systems are self-funded? (I genuinely don't know. Are any of them?) People pay into those systems because it benefits not just the poor, whether they work or not, but also because mass transit relieves traffic congestion for those that can afford a personal vehicle.
Maybe certain parts of what the USPS does should be subsidized by all taxpayers, instead of being subsidized by the functions that are profitable enough that it has competition from the private sector.
BTW, this is the steaming pile of shit who posted this:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?...”
Yes, this asshole is happy to have murder of an unarmed protester if s/he might, at a later time, done something this steaming pile of shit might find objectionable.
There is some level of sleaze which you'd hope even abysmally stupid lefty shits would avoid; you'd be wrong.
More later.
Much more, you lying pile of lefty shit.
"...If, on the other hand, those companies could make money on delivering junk mail and ordinary 1st class letters, they would..."
Stupidity or misdirection from steaming pile of shit?
Asshole, the taxpayers are subsidizing those mail classes. Either you are too stupid to know that or hoping your bullshit will pass muster.
"...If, on the other hand, those companies could make money on delivering junk mail and ordinary 1st class letters, they would..."
Shit-for-brains scores another! Asshole, by law, no one other than the USPS is allowed to deliver what can be considered 'first class letters. Were you born this stupid, or did it take long years of study majoring in "Lefty Stupidity"?
"...This is the problem with
[bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit,
bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit]
also because mass transit relieves traffic congestion for those that can afford a personal vehicle."
So steaming pile of lefty shit would have the taxpayer providing cheap automobiles to the poor (except you can't with government safety, fuel economy regs; lefty majors in womens' studies don't know that), but then suggesting we don't since the mass-transit (which no one uses) will relieve traffic congestion.
Hey, shit-for-brains! Isn't sitting on that fence painful to your ass?
"...Maybe certain parts of what the USPS does should be subsidized by all taxpayers, instead of being subsidized by the functions that are profitable enough that it has competition from the private sector."
Maybe lefty asshole ignoramuses like you should fuck off and die. Painfully.
Jason, allow me to add one more comment:
Please get fucked up the ass with a rusty pitchfork; you deserve nothing less.
I get were you are coming from, but it’s wrong. Before big government people in towns and cities across the US lived like Europeans that is within walking distance of all their needs. When cities got bigger in the US private street car operators provided cheap transportation for the masses. It is impressive looking at historical maps and pictures of those areas, you had middle of nowhere towns that looked as wealthy as our countries major metropolitan areas.
The government fucked that up royally and continues to do so. It demanded so much steel during our WWII that the competitors to street cars bought them out and sold out the tracks for scrap metal to break even and kill a competitor. Government heavily subsidized roads which prove a death knell to previously good passenger rail. It made private developers make “free parking” and other zoning regulations which destroyed walkability, induced sprawl, traffic, and reduced availability of housing. Government with large auto manufacturers manipulation squashed local pushback from the incredible amount of deaths caused by cars and those auto makers mostly escaped liability. I would like to believe government was good at solving problems, but it isn’t. I think the reasoning for this is private enterprise in general have a good feedback loop, and if a company fails to provide value and make a profit it disappears.
I sometimes wonder if we didn’t subsidize roads and rural power if the electric cars (which both existed and were competitive in the early years of automotives) would have done better. Additionally without subsidizing rural power we may have gotten good solar panels and battery tech decades and decades earlier.
Electric cars are not, were not, and never will be 'competitive' to IC-powered cars as regards range. Battery energy density sucks compared to gasoline.
Agreed ICE is best for long range. We might switch to hydrogen in the future to keep fuel density for heavy equipment if only because of government force.
It’s my understanding that the first popular electric cars had ranges of ~60 miles. They were ~33% of market in 1900. They were quiet, didn’t release emissions, slow, and thus a good fit for cities. The model T beat them on price 650 vs 1700, which ended the old heyday of electric vehicles. There isn’t a particular good reason why that form of assemble couldn’t have just as easily built electric cars for cheap.
But we subsidized and continue to subsidize rural roads (cost about $1.5 Mil a lane mile) We probable always would have always had ICE vehicles due to the need to bring food, lumber, and aggregates to market but without road subsidies we would have had more railroads doing this work instead of truckers.
I'm not sure who this "we" is. In our town, it's local property owners that pay for roads, either through the town or even individually.
The US has by far the largest rail network of any nation; it is larger than the entire EU plus the UK combined.The US also has more miles of rail per capita than Europe. And the US system is nearly 100% used for freight.
When you go to Europe, the highways are clogged with long distance trucks because their rail systems are inefficiently utilized and smaller.
Most communities don’t collect enough to cover their infrastructure maintenance costs hence why they then look to the FEDs. The FEDs then proportion $ to projects. A lot of that money feeding into road projects is not coming from user fees. In fact 6 Democrat Senators have just introduced a proposal to suspend the federal gas tax.
Currently per the Transportation Investment Advocacy Center federal funds accounts for on average 51% of annual state dot capital outlays for roads and bridges. The federal gas tax hasn’t increased since 1993 so infrastructure funding routinely gets back filled. So because of this and plenty of other reasons this “we” isn’t just local drivers but includes the general tax paying public.
We do have a superb freight system, I’m just saying it would have been even larger without subsidies to the interstate system. I’m making the argument that the interstate program was unnecessary to meet our transportation needs.
You're shifting the goalposts and failing to provide any evidence for your original statements.
The upshot is that both of our rail system and our highway system have been heavily subsidized by the federal government; both have resulted in overcapacities in both rail and highways and irrational land use patterns.
The solution to that is simply to eliminate all federal subsidies and finance both through user fees only.
y"I sometimes wonder if we didn’t subsidize roads and rural power if the electric cars (which both existed and were competitive in the early years of automotives)
.Wiw you pulled that BS envieonmental crap out of your ass...
" electric caes did well..". HAHAHA
In other words, private businesses will not supply goods and services below cost, while government will do just that and siphon off the money to pay for it from more productive sectors of the economy.
First of all, the only reason cars are so f*cking expensive in the US is excessive government regulations. If cars weren't stuck with those regulations, you could likely buy an excellent new car for a few thousand dollars.
Second, cars started out as luxury goods that people "near the poverty line" could not afford, and that is OK. Today, people "near the poverty line" can't afford private jets or private yachts either because those are still luxury goods. The reason cars appear to be so essential today is precisely because almost everybody can afford them, despite the government, not because of it.
Public transportation is government subsidies for people living in affluent cities, and subsidies to let their servants get to them cheaply and quickly. And public transportation is disproportionately funded by the poor. It's a ripoff.
The USPS is useless; it should be abolished. Completely and entirely.
"Congress Wants Taxpayers To Bail Out the Postal Service"
The workers are unionized, right? How much cheaper can votes get than when you can buy them with taxpayer money?
Privatizing the the mail delivery system will force our military personnel stationed overseas to pay lot more (FedX) to send letters home and their families living in rural America to really pay for privatization of mail. I must change side to the progressive viewpoint... at least until my US Airforce little brother returns home.
Sorry, but that suggests the US reduce overseas personnel rather than we pay to have you get cheap mail.
I didnt know Fedex picked up lettes in Iraq and brought them home.....
Quite a LIAR there.
More than one if you trolls pasting that false meme
FX arent allowed to handle military mail.
https://www.hrc.army.mil/content/Department%20of%20the%20Army%20Postal%20Program%20FAQ
Great! Let's bring the boys home. Two problems solved at once.
With no more money wasted on a failing USPS, the US has plenty of funding to just pay for free FedEx shipping for soldiers.
Oh, honey, who do you think you are kidding? Your reasoning and though processes are entirely progressive.
" Post Office needs bailed out."
Confucius say " he who not want to Bail should stop making holes in leaky ship!"
But leftards promised they would make the USA rich by "subsidized" import deals... lol... As-if that's not a broken record.... Never trust a leftard; they are too stupid to function without STEALING everything from somewhere.
Predictably, most of them, are even too stupid to realize taking everything from someone else that *earned* it by gov-gun-point is armed robbery.... How polluted can a human brain get?
The Post Office is one of thee biggest unions in the country. When it was obvious years ago, we should cut Sat delivery and scale back the PO, congress would have none of it. Those are union dues paying customers and that money funds dems reelections so we the tax payer take it up the shorts. I dont know the last time I mailed anything, My bills like most are electroni with auto deductions. Yet the PO is still in full force.
It cost $0.58 for a first class stamp. The 1982 cost was $0.22, $0.64 in constant dollars. FedEx wants $10-20 to deliver an envelope. Congress needs to let them raise prices to what it actually costs to deliver a letter, complete with pension and healthcare costs and not bail them out.
Congress needs to eliminate the USPS entirely; it can contract with private businesses and gig workers as needed.
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The only argument I can see to keep the USPS is to provide a guaranteed means to send and receive a package or letter from anywhere in the US to anywhere else in the world.
But I'm really not sure why that's needed any more; and if it is needed then there should be a way to require shipping companies to provide that service.
A reasonable phase-out period should start now. Phase out USPS entirely by 2040.
wait till the next ecinomic dump is taken.
There will go the retirement funds!