There Is Nothing 'Conservative' About Letting Police Violate Our Rights
Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin's support for qualified immunity is in opposition to the principles he says he stands for.

Newly-minted Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin appears on track to become somewhat of a star in the Republican Party. He ran a successful campaign around the more lightning-rod issues of the moment: nixing critical race theory in public schools, lifting remaining restrictions around COVID-19, cutting taxes by a significant margin, and prohibiting the public from holding government actors accountable in civil court when they violate your constitutional rights.
For the limited government advocate, one of these is not like the others.
Qualified immunity allows state and local agents to infringe on your rights without fear of civil suits if the precise way in which they violate those rights has not been "clearly established" in a prior court ruling. Buried underneath that legalese are stories that would be comical if they didn't involve real people who had no recourse after dealing with misbehaving civil servants.
It's how two police officers in Fresno, California, were able to avoid a lawsuit after allegedly pocketing $225,000 from two suspects—who, it bears mentioning, were never charged with a crime—during the execution of a search warrant. It's how a cop in Coffee County, Georgia, was able to skirt civil court after shooting a 10-year-old boy who was lying on the ground, leaving his family with the bill after he needed extensive care from an orthopedic surgeon. It's how cops have been able to assault and file bogus charges against people, destroy their property, and violate their First Amendment rights while victims are left without the privilege of asking a jury for damages.
The legal doctrine became a bipartisan target for reform after the death of George Floyd in May 2020. Before that, discussions around qualified immunity were mostly conducted by think tanks and outlets like Reason. But despite a select few Republicans willing to come to the table, a faction of the back-the-blue right still offers a sort of reflexive defense of the doctrine. Like this:
https://twitter.com/njhochman/status/1484024081108320258?s=20
It's a retort worth addressing in good faith when considering it likely undergirds a great deal of support for qualified immunity among conservatives like Youngkin, who in almost every other instance would claim that their ideology stands for keeping government honest and accountable to the people it serves.
Hochman, an Intercollegiate Studies Institute fellow at National Review, is correct that there's been a spike in violent crime, something that many people interested in criminal justice reform would like to conveniently ignore. The problem: That metric has just about nothing to do with qualified immunity, and hinges on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the doctrine works.
Put more plainly, the response implies that because we're experiencing an uptick in violent offenses, police officers need to be able to steal, shoot children, assault surrendered suspects, and destroy property. I prefer to believe that good cops—of which there are many—can do their jobs without relying on illegal tactics.
"Conservatives who embrace qualified immunity do law enforcement a tremendous disservice. I think there's nothing more demoralizing to good police officers than being trapped in the profession with bad police officers," says Clark Neily, senior vice president for legal studies at the Cato Institute. "If you're going to be thoughtful about it, police do not have the ability to just unilaterally prevent or solve violent crime….As long as police officers are perceived as being institutionally unaccountable, [they] will not have the support of the community." Confidence in police hovers just over 50 percent, according to a 2021 Gallup poll, up 3 points from a record low in 2020—the first time it ever fell below a majority.
Importantly, the response—that victims of police misconduct should have no recourse during times of higher crime rates—fails to account for how qualified immunity actually works in practice. For starters: More than 99 percent of judgments handed down against cops are paid out by taxpayers, according to a study conducted by Joanna Schwartz, a law professor at UCLA. That's because municipalities indemnify their employees from having to pay full judgments—or from having to pay anything at all. About 0.02 percent of those damages came from the actual individual government actors. Their bad behavior did not bankrupt them.
But can't victims just sue the city? They can try, but it's likely they'll be unsuccessful there as well. Municipalities are protected by the Monell doctrine, which shields cities from lawsuits unless they had a specific policy or rule on the books that enabled the misbehavior in question. In many ways, it's an even more difficult standard to overcome than qualified immunity.
But what about the onslaught of frivolous suits that would come down against the police? That also misses the mark, particularly when considering that it is not possible to simply enter a federal courthouse and file a lawsuit because you're mad at the cops. Before suing a government actor, a plaintiff must satisfy two conditions: that the public servant affirmatively violated someone's constitutional rights, and that the violation of the rights is clearly established in prior case law. Without qualified immunity, a would-be litigant would still need to prove to a federal judge that his constitutional rights were infringed on. Qualified immunity is only the second part—the part that sends a victim searching for a perfect court precedent where another victim experienced a near-identical sort of misconduct.
It's for that reason that the doctrine gives license to some disturbing behavior—the sort that should concern anyone who positions himself as a defender of responsible governance. An example: "The City Officers ought to have recognized that the alleged theft was morally wrong," but the police "did not have clear notice that it violated the Fourth Amendment." This is a real quote from a real decision from a real federal court—the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit—awarding qualified immunity to two government actors who we apparently cannot trust to know that stealing during a search warrant is unconstitutional unless there is some obscure court precedent saying so. I'd posit that most of the public has more faith in police to do their jobs with integrity. I certainly do.
Though qualified immunity reform appears to be in the legislative graveyard, the Supreme Court has been willing to comment more on the topic as of late. Its two most outspoken detractors are Associate Justice Sonia Sotomayor and Associate Justice Clarence Thomas, the former being one of the most liberal jurists while the latter is arguably the most conservative. "I have previously expressed my doubts about our qualified immunity jurisprudence," wrote Thomas in a 2020 lone dissent after every other justice declined to hear a case pertaining to two officers who were given qualified immunity after allegedly releasing a police dog on a suspect who had already surrendered. The high court is a particularly suitable venue for that pushback: It legislated qualified immunity into existence a few decades ago in direct contention with current civil rights law. Opposition to that sort of judicial policy making is typically a hallmark of conservatism, although in this area it's less politically expedient.
But perhaps most insidious in this case is the idea that principles around limited and accountable government should be subject to change based on the year—a strange argument for any conservative.
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Youngkin been good on some issues, but definitely wrong on QI, along with most politicians.
He’s still a huge 8 pro cement over Al Jolson or the Clinton henchman.
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Wanna know what's missing from this article? Anything evidence for Youngkin's position on QI. Seriously, not even a quote from Youngkin.
It was one of the major themes of his campaign.
https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/chesterfield-county/governor-elect-glenn-youngkin-meets-with-local-law-enforcement-discussing-challenges-solutions/
Thank you Chasman. I wonder why Binion was incapable of posting a link.
Binion, "protecting police from frivolous lawsuits" and "nothing conservative about letting police violate our rights" are compatible. I suggest discussing how to improve QI rather than outrage at something that was never said.
The infant like takes on QI by reason continues to be amazing.
Without QI a desk clerk handing out marriage licenses could have been sued for following prior precedent and law prior to the USSC suddenly declaring gay marriage a right in all states. Despite following established and adjudicated law, she could have been sued as it was now a right and she had violated the rights of people not prior established.
Not every case if QI is egregious. Only children treat a discussion solely from the most egregious case and apply it to all cases.
So you're saying those cops who stole $225k had every right to steal it and get away with it scot-free?
Wow. And I thought sqrsly was a retarded shit. Welcome to his shit show.
I wonder how I knew when I saw it was a Billy Binion article, that it was going to be a one-sided article on QI and that he was going to link to his own same tired old articles for the 80th time. Billy is the real-life Rain Man.
My original debate teacher used to say that unless you can argue against the position that your opponent would make, you're not qualified to debate anything. Billy has one drum, one beat, and he only captures the imagination of novice Reason readers who are prone to be led by the nose.
Billy just inserts every new name [this time Youngkin] into the same article and the dumbasses at Reason keep paying him for it.
And if you are simply being sarcastic, no. It needs to be reformed. Not completely rejected as reason always claims.
Blame the headline writers. I don't recall the bloggers saying that, or at least not many of them. Most just point out the problems and expect the reader to support unspecified reforms. That's a reporter's job, isn't it? They don't spell out the solutions, the call our attention to the problems. But some of the headline writers then translate that to "QI Must Go!" Those are not the only headlines here that contradict the articles.
" Headline Writer"
Now THERES a challenging varied career like " lifestyle expert" or " piss bucket carrier."
The Left Media are so bad they cant even write heaflines...
" Oh Piss Boy!"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7OWMB3ewpNM
I doubt that was sarcasm, seems like run of the mill reactionary progressive stupidity, trying for a gotcha.
Good job missing the point. There are abuses but the shield exists for good reasons too. The debate should be how to eliminate the abuse not throw out policing in toto. See, I can do bad faith arguments just like you and Billy.
^This
The infant-like takes on QI by JesseBahnFuhrer is like, like, like an infant, JesseBahnFuhrer like, likes ANY policy by ANY power-hungry idiot with an "R" attached to his name, and utterly despises ANY policy by a person with a "D" or an "L" attached to his or her name!
By the way, JesseBahnFuhrer the high-school dorp-out, if urine will ONLY stop dorping out, "infant-like" is a LOT more readable than infant like likes dorping-out-of-the incumprehesile, prehensile penis of the Creature from Venus, like an infantile ramble-o-phile, ramble-style guanopile!
It's the most egregious cases that need reform. Is it childish to scratch where the itch is? QI as it now stands came from a line of jurisprudence in response to statute that had resulted in some extreme consequences. But the judges clearly took things too far in the opposite direction, as exemplified by the most egregious cases. Can't we keep striving for a happy medium that will protect all parties from injustice?
Agreed. Reform can be tailored to address this, I think. If this will be the case, knowing that the great majority of politicians are dim bulbs, is an unknown.
I think that rather than completely abolishing QI, it needs to be reformed in such a way that it's extremely limited and can't be used to protect bad actors or illegal actions by government employees.
The way that I would restrict it, is to say that it only protects government officials who are legitimately performing the duties of their office in good faith, and legally following established policy.
So, you couldn't just sue the AD of your state university for hiring a football coach that you don't like (unless he broke protocol, refused to conduct any interviews, and just hired his cousin or something).
But you could perhaps sue a police officer who broke into your house, shot your dog, hit your wife, and stole all your money, after falsifying an affidavit to secure a no-knock warrant.
The way that I would restrict it, is to say that it only protects government officials who are legitimately performing the duties of their office in good faith, and legally following established policy.
That is not a reform at all. All of the miscreant cops would simply say "I was acting in good faith, I 'feared for my life'" and they would point to their training manual which does not explicitly say "never shoot the dog".
That is a vapid, paranoid argument Jeff. Reforms can include language preventing just that sort of defense.
"I think that rather than completely abolishing QI, it needs to be reformed in such a way that it's extremely limited and can't be used to protect bad actors or illegal actions by government employees."
Human nature is towards abuse. People do not naturally limit themselves, ergo, laws.
That will fail. It will fall to the System and the System is not the Solution.
The System put it here in the first place but you expect a different outcome...
One can also reasonably take the position that this should fall under criminal law, that the money he stole should be returned, and that damages he cause should be directly paid for by his employer--the city--who are responsible for hiring and training him.
That is, having QI doesn't automatically mean that officers can do whatever they want, or that there is no civil liability, it means that civil lawsuits against individual officers are not the best way for accomplishing those goals.
Oh, it absolutely should fall under criminal law - it's just that it often doesn't, currently.
( ͡????️ ͜ʖ ͡????️)? I think there were several convicted cops in 2021 that would disagree with your assertion... from their prison cell. Please try to keep up.
Republicans had a good proposal for fixing this in 2020. Sadly, it never made it out of committee. The proposal would have changed the precedent rule for QI. Instead of "QI can only be overcome if there is a substantially similar case ruled a violation before" it would be come "QI can only be invoked if there is a substantially similar case ruled a not a violation before".
The problem isn't with QI, it's with the court's absolutely bananas interpretation of what counts as a reasonable misunderstanding of the law. A desk clerk trying to navigate conflicting orders in how to handle paperwork cannot be personally sued for trying to carry out their job in the most correct way they figure, even if they get it technically wrong. Cops committing literal highway robbery, murder, falsifying evidence, stealing cars... those aren't ambiguous cases. It shouldn't even be a question. Cops must understand, without having to be told, that doing the sorts of things most people instantly recognize as "crime" is unacceptable.
Are there valid invocations of QI? Absolutely, but there is a real and serious problem with police and courts colluding to abuse that process and the legitimate purposes of QI will suffer because of it.
QI is EXACTLY the problem.
It says " you can violate Law with official sanction and INVALIDATE LAW AND CIRCUMVENT JUSTICE."
When Certain Persons are exempt from lsw, they invariably abuse it.
It says no such thing. It says that officers can't be sued privately in civil court for matters that arise while they carry out their official duties.
Officers are still criminally liable, and their employer also remains liable.
Lucky then that QI doesn't "exempt" people from the law.
Just like how you can't sue an accountant in civil court if he committed criminal fraud; you must sue his employer instead. Oh wait, we don't do that in any other circumstance. Almost like cops are exempt from generally applicable tort law.
That is patently false.
First of all, QI applies to all government employees, not just cops.
Furthermore, employees and corporate officers also are shielded from many civil lawsuits while on the job.
LOL! You have no idea what you're talking about. No, an accountant who commits criminal fraud goes to criminal court, not civil court. And you actually DO sue his employer for not providing adequate oversight. It's called agency law, and it's a thing. A LOT of companies are sued, sometimes into oblivion because of the criminal actions of their employees.
The accountant is still subject to suit.
QI prevents cases from being heard in court. That's the problem.
Sure there will be cases where QI is abused to sue government employees for just doing their jobs, but that's what court is for.
Those who don't want cases to even go to court, whether they realize it or not, are defending evil.
Who said they shouldn't go to court? QI is just a matter of who goes to court for what. In any workplace environment, it is the employer that gets sued for wrongful actions of the employee. It's called agency law, and then it's up to the employer to potentially fire or sue their own employee.
Outside people have dealings/relationship/expectations from the employer and the employer has those things with the employee. This is what keeps the employer responsible for supervising and training the employee. Otherwise, if it's the employee that can be sued, this all but forces the employer to throw the employee under the bus, deny responsibility, and the plaintiff gets far little justice, if any at all because the defendant likely goes bankrupt.
In the provate sector, both employer and employee can be sued.
In my experience the conservatives who support QI think that eliminating it will leave all police officers homeless, barrel-wearing indigents so their support for it is grounded in the belief that without it there will be no police at all. When I explain that cop QI was created in the early 1980s and we had no shortage of officers before that the comeback is we are so much more litigious now and all the police would quit to avoid inevitable financial ruin.
Cop qi isnt a thing. Qi is for all government employees. Cops are a subset.
Consider the modern context and that every single arrest is an assault and it's not incorrect to think they could be held liable for every single mistake. Better to not make mistakes in that environment so don't act.
Is there a link to Youngkin's comments on QI?
Youngkin AGREES (as ALL right-thinking totalitarians generally do) that people should be FORCED to buy Reason magazines!!!
Hey Damiksec, damiskec, and damikesc, and ALL of your other socks…
How is your totalitarian scheme to FORCE people to buy Reason magazines coming along?
Free speech (freedom from “Cancel Culture”) comes from Facebook, Twitter, Tik-Tok, and Google, right? THAT is why we need to pass laws to prohibit these DANGEROUS companies (which, ugh!, the BASTARDS, put profits above people!)!!! We must pass new laws to retract “Section 230” and FORCE the evil corporations to provide us all (EXCEPT for my political enemies, of course!) with a “UBIFS”, a Universal Basic Income of Free Speech!
So leftist “false flag” commenters will inundate Reason-dot-com with shitloads of PROTECTED racist comments, and then pissed-off readers and advertisers and buyers (of Reason magazine) will all BOYCOTT Reason! And right-wing idiots like Damikesc will then FORCE people to support Reason, so as to nullify the attempts at boycotts! THAT is your ultimate authoritarian “fix” here!!!
“Now, to “protect” Reason from this meddling here, are we going to REQUIRE readers and advertisers to support Reason, to protect Reason from boycotts?”
Yup. Basically. Sounds rough. (Quote damikesc)
(Etc.)
See https://reason.com/2020/06/24/the-new-censors/
Learn to Google.
You’re the last person to be saying that. Sea lioning asshole.
Lmfao, exactly what I was going to say. cytotoxic requires citations to prove that the sun rises in the east, but requires no source for the comments about which an entire article was written.
I had that thought as well.
So...no?
Got it.
You know who should include a link? The AUTHOR of the piece.
It's pretty funny that jeffy was defending lazy journalism when he accuses others of just such a thing.
Police violated Ashli Babbitt’s rights
Hey Chumpy Chump the Toddler-Humper!
Don’t fear the revolt!
(insurrection)!
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Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain
(We can be like they are)
Come on, baby
(Don’t fear the revolt)
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Here but now they’re gone
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(Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbitt)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Wessel
She was insurrecting. That's different.
ANYTHING done in support of the Orange Hitler is ADMIRABLY different! 'Cause My Team Good! Your team BAD; VERY bad!
This (below) poetry inspired by the REAL facts of a REAL nightmare!
https://www.salon.com/2021/04/11/trumps-big-lie-and-hitlers-is-this-how-americas-slide-into-totalitarianism-begins/
Trump’s Big Lie and Hitler’s: Is this how America’s slide into totalitarianism begins?
"The Sound Of Despots"
Hello darkness, my old friend, I've come to talk with you again
Because a nightmare in jackboots, left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the nightmare that was planted in my brain, still remains
Within the sound of despots
In nightmares I ran alone, narrow streets of cobblestone
Neath the halo of a streetlamp, I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of an orange blight, split the night
And touched the sound of despots
And in their naked greed I saw, millions of sheeple, maybe more
Sheeple talking without speaking, sheeple hearing without listening
Sheeple’s thoughts, sanity never shared, and no one dared
To question the despots!
Fool, said I, you do not know, despots, like a cancer, grows
Hear my words and I might teach you, take my arms then I might reach you
But my words, like silent raindrops fell, and echoed in the wells of despots
And the morons bowed and prayed to the orange god they'd made
And the sign flashed its warning in the words that it was forming
And the sign said the words of the despots are written in the echo chambers
And tenement halls, and shouted, in the sounds of despots
Watching that video gives squirrel an inserection.
Thanks to permanent whiskey dick, sarcasmic needs a popsicle stick and scotch tape to even rape his daughter these days.
Well, that sounds like an inincerection!
Being a traitor and trying to attack Members of the House are not rights.
Thankfully, none of those folks either of those activities.
That didn’t happen. At least outside of your Marxist fan fiction.
WHO was she "trying" to "attack"?
Which members?
She almost raped AOC with her babecock, damikesc! She barely escaped with her cunt intact!
That should've been the first notice that AOC is quite obsessed with how hot she thinks she is.
You will keep this pathetic line up until the bitter end, eh? What treason was committed? And prove that she was trying to attack members of the house.
Unless you're a Bernie Bro with a scary black assault rifle shooting Republicans on a baseball field, or a mob of Neiman Marxist mostly peaceful rioters trying to kill a Republican senator and his wife, or a mob of #resistance organizers dragging an immigrant limo driver out of his vehicle and beating the shit out of him while burning his livelihood to the ground (not covered by general liability or auto insurance, btw), or a merry band of judicial branch enthusiasts trying to smash down the doors of a senate hearing to confirm a supreme court justice, or a wealthy white trust fund baby detonating bombs in the capitol and the pentagon, or Puerto Rican nationalist storming the capitol with guns and wounding 5 members of congress while shooting from the gallery during debate on an immigration bill.
Why should ignorance of the law be a defense for police officers but not for the rest of us? Today, many, if not most, cops have "criminal justice degrees." They all certainly get more education in the law than average John Doe. It shouldn't be too hard to get rid of QI for the most egregious cases while protecting some clerk who was yesterday following a law that was just changed today.
Exactly. This is just a legal dodge for their Employers to hide behind.
They pretend to be so highly trained but it takes five of them to shoot some person only armed with a knife?
Incompetent cowards.
Usually only after shooting 2-3 bystanders.
Victims of police misconduct can sue the police department, and officers can be held criminally responsible and are subject to disciplinary procedures as well.
QI only protects government employees from personal civil liability in the performance of their job duties.
If you want to argue against QI, you need to get the basic facts straight.
The simple fact, however, is that most Americans simply don’t care one way or another; QI is way, way down on the list of political and economic concerns we have.
Conservatives often polish their authoritarian boner - see Trump and his fondness for Eminent Domain and Asset Forfeiture Theft.
Have I mentioned how fantastic it is that you find a way to reference Drumpf in every single thread? Please never stop doing it for as long as this website exists.
#DrumpfAboveAll
Trump (or Drumph to use his Aryan surname as you do) is the new Bigshit in the GOP.
You rightly noticed that in 2016 I thought that the Bush family were the real Bigshits in the GOP.
The Bush family no longer appealed to the Gutter Trash rank-and-file that made up the new GOP.
You got that one right, OBL.
"...new Bigshit in the GOP."
Nah! New TrumptatorShit!
You had the SqRL at 'shit'.
OBL is in your head almost as much as Nickelodeon is.
Pluggo the Clown thinking about unsupervised kids again.
Sevo the Pedo, sitting on a park bench, eyeing little boys with bad intent: “How do you like to entice the little tykes? I like to use candy!”
Sharing-that-bench, Chumpy Chump the Toddler-Humper: “Candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker!”
"No U" would work a little bit better if the guy you're defending wasn't, you know, an actual, literal pedophile who actually, literally posted child pornography at Reason.com, sarcasmic. Once again though I have to tell you how absolutely delighted I am that you have chosen defending a known pedophile who posted child pornography and got banned from Reason.com as your hill to die on.
So... Sqrlsy is a CNN producer?
Polish? You mean like when you’re watching kiddie porn?
Yeah we Koch / Reason libertarians suffered a setback when our preferred candidate McAuliffe lost that race. I suspect the Republicans "won" with their usual methods — JIM CROW 2.0 and / or RUSSIAN HACKING.
#VAsGovernorIsIllegitimate
#(SoIsGAs)
VOTER SUPPRESSION
Yes, democrats want to suppress our votes.
TL;DR (yet), but first of all, there's always going to be some weight on the scale favoring QI when it's government functionaries of any sort in solidarity with other government functionaries, not just police. So that weight has to be overcome before any ideologic consideration can even come into play.
Yes, "conservatives" are cop-suckers and cop-lickers for the past 55 years in the USA, running against their general leaning on government matters. As near as I can figure, it's because "conservatives" see the police as hassling "not-us" but rather hippies and ghetto types (except for ghetto-dwelling "conservatives", who see the cops as hassling those "more ghetto" than they are). I doubt things would've aligned this way had not the 1960s (i.e. the late 1960s and early 1970s) happened, but they did and the pattern got locked in, self-sustaining culturally.
On top of that, where cops are permitted to organize, they attract pro-union, mostly Democrat support as well.
I don't see a chink in all that armor, but perhaps one can be found.
The Bronx Conservative Committee (a fund raising front group for the Bronx Conservative Party) at its annual dinner-dance used to have a panoply of police unions and associations (one for the patrolmen, another for the sergeants, another for the detectives, I think another for the captains or lieutenants) honor one of each of their number basically for longevity in the job, keeping their nose relatively clean, and kissing ass of those above them — basically honored for having been honored. How the police represented "conservative" values was seldom made explicit, because was law enforcement supposed to be a political issue? But apparently it did amount to taking the side of "the police" in any controversy that came up. QI had not really come to the fore 6 years ago when I was in the Bronx, but to the extent it was to save the wealth of even very errant government agents, they'd probably support the widest QI protection that was in the cards.
Thus exemplifying the arbitrary-seeming, path-dependent way political party systems organize and maintain themselves, especially if it's a system of just 2 or very few parties. One party in a polity winds up as the party of the bell ringers, cake decorators, and wheel balancers, while the other is the party of the drummers, candy makers, and tire changers. The groups in each faction have really no connection other than as supporting the same party and hence the same politicians, with their money and votes, so the politicians have to cater to such a motley crew. So such seemingly diverse platform planks as cutting taxes, keeping critical race theory out of government schools, and making sure you can't sue government agents all "go together", and after a while the combination of stances is memorized and seems perfectly natural to people, as if any group of some such opinions implied the others just out of the course of logic.
I don't see a chink in all that armor, but perhaps one can be found.
It is simple. Get rid of Qualified Immunity, and a system of liability insurance will naturally arise. Bad cops will have unaffordable premiums, good cops will have affordable premiums.
Jeff, do litigations in America only occur against "bad" people? Do lawyers target only companies and individuals that gravely violate public safety and commit the worst kinds of crime?
Why were vaccine companies and some grocery chains afforded liability protection? If they slip up and put my health at risk, shouldn't be able to hold them accountable? Tell me you understand why liability protections need to exist for practical purposes, rather than just applying them to individual cases in a vacuum.
There aren't separate premiums for "good" and "bad" members. The bad police that get sued will raise the price on everyone else. Any frivolous lawsuits (of which will be aplenty) will raise insurance costs untenable, and all of that will come out of your pocket.
I doubt it will come out of Jeffy’s pocket since he is certainly not a net layer of taxes.
Even if he was a net tax asset rather than a net tax liability, he lives in the greater Toronto area of Canada, not the United States.
Where is it written that only "bad" people should only ever get sued? Of course all sorts of people are sued all the time for all sorts of things. It is a waste of time, however, to sue people who aren't guilty.
Part of what it means to be a professional, making life-or-death decisions, is that your decisions are sometimes subjected to legal scrutiny by aggrieved parties. They have every right to scrutinize those decisions.
We don't have an epidemic of patients suing doctors, to the extent that it requires shielding all doctors from lawsuits. Why would it be different for police officers, who admittedly make FEWER life-or-death decisions as a whole than medical doctors?
The bad police that get sued will raise the price on everyone else.
Perhaps, but only within a certain jurisdiction. And maybe if rates are high in particular jurisdiction, that says something about the nature of policing in that area.
Any frivolous lawsuits (of which will be aplenty) will raise insurance costs untenable,
There are already judicial sanctions against frivolous lawsuits. Again we don't see the epidemic of lawsuits that you fear with doctors and patients, so I don't consider this concern to be meaningful.
and all of that will come out of your pocket.
Okay? The point here isn't to minimize cost to the taxpayer. The point here is to see to it that victims of harm get justice. The current system does not get rid of the harm, it only sweeps it under the rug. Victims of injustice get the shaft, and because they aren't compensated for their loss, the rest of us get the benefit of partially subsidized policing. The subsidy comes at the expense of someone's harm however. Is that really a defensible position?
Everywhere? You can't sue without a cause of action. In order for a cause of action to arise someone must have committed a tort. People who commit torts have done something "bad".
The entire basis of the libertarian argument for corporate welfare "tort reform" for the last 30 years has been that civil juries are giving out jackpot verdicts due to frivolous lawsuits against innocent doctors.
Interesting that you decided to entirely ignore the blanket immunity for any form of liability for vaccine manufacturers.
No, I mean how do you get thru all the above-described political armor to be able to do anything about QI?
If things worked that way, it would be good. But cops are government employees; they will be "insured" by their employer.
But that's effectively the situation we already have. When cops are guilty of misconduct in their official capacity, you can sue the city.
The only difference QI makes is that you can sue individual cops privately in civil court, even though the judgment will likely be paid for by the city anyway.
That is, by ending QI, you create a situation in which people get sued as individuals and may end up settling, but taxpayers have to foot the bill without having any input on the legal proceedings.
As I keep saying, I think QI probably should be reformed or abolished. But most people who object to QI don't even know what QI actually is or make coherent arguments about how it should be changed.
If things worked that way, it would be good. But cops are government employees; they will be "insured" by their employer.
That's fine. If employers wish to pay for the insurance costs of their employees, they have every liberty to do so. That then expense becomes a cost that is a part of the city's itemized budget, and we all would be able to see how trustworthy the cops in the city are, based on the insurance expense that the city was paying.
The only difference QI makes is that you can sue individual cops privately in civil court, even though the judgment will likely be paid for by the city anyway.
And if we had a system of liability insurance instead, the insurance company would pay the judgment, not the city.
That is, by ending QI, you create a situation in which people get sued as individuals and may end up settling, but taxpayers have to foot the bill without having any input on the legal proceedings.
And EVEN IF the city pays the settlement, the whole object here isn't to minimize the cost to the taxpayer. If we wanted to minimize cost to the taxpayer, just declare that cities and their employees have "sovereign immunity" and can't be sued for anything, and that is the end of it. The point here is to seek justice for those who are harmed by the police.
And then when no insurer will work with the city, it will self-insure as municipalities do in a million other scenarios, and you're back to square one.
Unless it's an unarmed protester who is shot in the face by a racist cop, of course.
Governments don’t “pay for insurance costs for their employees”, they self-insure.
Furthermore, the object of civil litigation (the only kind QI applies to) isn’t justice, it is compensation for damages. Even if you could win civil litigation against cops, the cops wouldn’t be punished as a result.
Meting out justice and punishment to bad cops is the job of DAs, courts, city government, and disciplinary committees, and they operate independent of QI.
Insurance is a scam, and not any better solution than broken QI. What the wobbly fuck is wrong with you?
Insurance is a scam
And I thought vapid, paranoid arguments were forbidden.
Insurance was illegal for centuries because of the moral hazard involved you historically illiterate retard. And if vapid, paranoid arguments were forbidden you would have been bounced off this site for the 2 years you spent shitting your Depends about COVID.
He would have been out long before that.
...except its a Straw Argument.
Nowhere in this Nation are " police" and " law enforcement" established, valid Constitutionally permitted ideals.
In fact, the WA State C. FORBIDS " armed men of corporations."
That aint the Boy Scouts!
Thats Cities.
The 9th and 10th amendments allow the states or the people, respectively, to pass laws and exercise powers beyond the more limited set granted to the federal government. "Armed men of corporations" does not refer to municipal, county or state police either, it refers to private armed forces and was intended to address the excesses of mining interests whose company towns were policed by private armed security. The idea that police forces are unconstitutional is nonsense on stilts. Make a real argument instead of being a retard.
End the drug war.
That'd be a good thing in itself, but not connected much to this problem, any more than cigaret taxes (as alleged many times here) were to the Staten Island Strangler.
Is completely connected.
War on this or that manufactures Laws and criminals for the Police State to claim the ned to chase after.
Wed not have the NFA and such wholesale infringment in the 2A if the War on Alcohol hadnt been invented.
Not true. There may be a connection, but the causality runs in the opposite direction. Many people just want a strong police presence to keep "them" down, and they manufacture laws and criminals out of that same sentiment.
In the meantime there's something we can do: get up a "QI fund" to reimburse those who can't sue for damages.
Especially the dead ones.
Dead men call no tails
To benefit their families, yes, the dead ones too.
If the Supreme Court invented QI on the pretext it is required by the constitution how can it be reversed legislatively?
Why is Youngkin even mentioned if you're not going to give some example of his supposed support? Terrible writing.
It wasn't on the pretext that the US Constitution required it, other than general principles of the 5th amendment that underlie everything; rather it was judged to be something the legislators intended when they wrote the civil rights legislation. So it can be amended by legislation that makes clear otherwise, because the 5th amendment provides for people's being deprived of property in case of a judgment against them.
So if I oppose scrapping QI out of concerns over rising crime, that is the equivalent of me granting the police carte blanche to rape and murder people. How does Reason expect to be taken as a serious academic publication when they publish this kind of disingenuous take?
Has Reason fully adopted the progressive attitude that lawsuits and regulations will STOP crime and bad behavior? We should support them as deterrent? Binnion says "Here are cops who stole money from suspects and QI is the reason why". If we just had the ability to civily sue cops, they would stop this kind of behavior! My, with all the lawsuits in this country, one wonders how corporate theft, defamation, and rape happen here at all.
If one understands how unintended consequences works, he cannot take the misinformed position that QI abolishment has nothing to do with crime. Crime is rising because BLM anti police rhetoric gave birth to progressive DAs who refuse to enforce the law and concentrated attack on police that hampered law enforcement efforts.
I can easily counter Binnion's instances of police abuse with stories about college students getting stabbed to death, black beauty salon workers getting gunned down in front of their stores, a deranged lunatic running down people in a christmas parade or taking a synagogue hostage, etc - of course these stories rarely make an appearance here.
If you think the BLM fanatics won't sue every police for even the slightest perceived mistake, there are bridges to be sold. You can make a case for a sensible reform. Getting rid of QI is opening up a pandora's box.
You’re right. They would absolutely engage in lawfare. In fact, BLM would likely start setting up the police for lawsuits on a regular basis. And while I have a number of issues with the police, that would be unworkable.
Like everything else, the core issue is getting rid of the democrats.
Binion is emotive, not rational. He covers interesting, from civil liberties viewpoint, stories, but gets stuck on the zero sum binary view that the left-leaning crowd favors.
I don't think they have any such aspirations, but even if they had, publishing disingenuous bullshit would be the surest possible way to get themselves taken seriously as an academic publication.
QI is not the problem. The problem is a lack of criminal charges. QI doesn't protect from those. If victims felt they were getting justice they wouldn't try to get it by suing.
That's not true at all. Criminal justice isn't individual justice!
How very communist of you.
The proper recourse for crooked or malicious police is them being prosecuted for their crimes.
If that isn't being done enough (and it's not), then do something to ensure it is.
Being able to be sued for every action someone doesn't like isn't going to do anything except result in no one wanting to be a cop. And like it or not, they are a necessary evil
Lie of the Day!
They claim theyre necessary.
Kennesaw GA PROVED they are not.
K. had a crime problem.
After Mandating that ALL Residents be ARNED, crime dropped 85 %.
Tell your Police Union Reps to pack their Carpetbags. You with them.
https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/08/kennesaw-georgia-gun-ownership-cnn/
Like what? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
I am curious why it is so important to eliminate QI to be able to sue cops as individuals rather than reforming the Monell Doctrine to make suits against the municipality that may be tolerating bad cops or bad police procedures.
What makes sense to me is a cop should be open to personal liability if they are a bad actor going against their department's procedures. If they do following procedures then that should be on the government. Opening up personal liability for cops in all cases seems to be wanting to legally harass individual police for being cops.
Even under the most expansive use of "respondeat superior", the business entity isn't responsible for clearly-not-part-of-the-job actions such as described here.
Opening up personal liability for cops in all cases seems to be wanting to legally harass individual police for being cops.
So what? If the lawsuits are without merit then the accuser loses and is out a bunch of money. It's not like it will cost cops anything. The union or department will pay all the legal fees.
The problem with QI is that cases are dismissed without ever going to court. That sends a very clear message to the police: You can do whatever you want and nothing else will happen.
It's a good thing the same incentives don't exist when suing state election commissions for irregularities with their voting procedures and inauditable ballots.
This would seem to set up the process being the punishment. And I am not sure how much of those expenses are actually covered. Frankly, that sounds like the excuse for tolerating property destruction in the riots because "the businesses are insured".
It's easier for the marxists trying to destroy Western society to target the individuals rather than their god, the State.
I love how Binion uses examples that aren't from VA then goes on to complain about ferderal courts.
Good point. It's not like it's a national problem. It's specific to VA and no where else.
Actually, it's not a national problem at all; when it happens, it's a local problem. And QI does vary state by state.
And what is abolishing QI actually going to accomplish? It is unlikely that civil lawsuits are going to act as a deterrent because the cost of judgments will just be passed on to taxpayers.
So, how do you want to actually reform QI and what does that actually accomplish? Is there evidence that your reforms will improve law enforcement?
(FWIW, based on first principles, I think QI should not exist and police departments should be private security firms. But those issues are way down on my list of political priorities.)
And what the fuck is the Gov of VA going to do about QI in CA or on a federal level? It is like you have no clue how government works.
I wonder if those who oppose QI reform because Democrats like the idea realize that they inadvertently support Saint Babbitt's "murderer" from ever seeing a civil court room.
Partisan politics makes people stupid. Or do stupid people gravitate towards partisan politics. Regardless, they're stupid.
Or maybe it's not stupidity. Maybe they oppose QI reform so the cop won't be held accountable, which makes Saint Babbitt even more of a martyr for their Trumpian religion.
You really are a nasty, angry, stupid human being, attributing the worst motives to other people while not reflecting for a moment on yourself.
I actually clicked 'show username' out of curiosity, given that that describes the vast majority of the shitposting, trolling, shilling, progressive types who comment. I had guessed RAK, since that's it to a Tee...
Or possibly the partisanship you are attributing to them when they ostensibly act against their own interest is merely your rabidly partisan interpretation of what we call "having principles".
There Is Nothing 'Conservative' About Letting Police Violate Our Rights
You're kidding, right? Conservatives have always given vocal support for cops while preaching tough on crime rhetoric. Holding police accountable is weakness. It's coddling criminals. But most importantly it's something Democrats support, which means it must be opposed as a matter of principle no matter what.
When do Dems support holding police accountable? Provide examples.
The came on board to QI reform, which is why most conservatives oppose the idea.
You really have a one-track partisan mind and have swallowed left wing propaganda hook line and sinker.
Support for/opposition to QI is most likely based on whether someone views law enforcement as a part of their social circle and community, or as some kind of abstract (possibly hostile) function of government; it's also based on whether people think about the cost of law enforcement as something that they themselves end up having to pay for, or whether it is paid by others.
It is hardly surprising that a low income Democratic voter in an anonymous big city wants to end QI, while a small town Republican voter who knows police from their social circle and knows the town's budget does not. The kind of "knee jerk reaction" you postulate may be how you form your political opinions, but most other people are better than that.
There were a few decent police reform ideas over the last few years but they got hijacked by the race baiters. Then come the summer riots and now many associate police reform with rioters, so they reflexively oppose it.
Besides, it doesn't matter. The article is about conservatives, not Democrats.
Or are you invoking the "WEEZEN WAS MEAN TO WEPUBWICANS WITHOUT BEING MEAN TO DEMOCWATS NOT FAIR WAHHHH!" rule?
Democrats run the federal government. Makes total sense to whine about Republicans.
The simple fact is that for most Americans outside the inner cities, police and police misconduct simply isn’t an issue. That’s why police reform has no political traction outside some hardcore progressive ideologues like you.
For certain values of "always". Do you have evidence those were "conservative" stances in the USA 75+ years ago? They seem to have become such in the 1960s. Also, I don't know how they align in other countries.
Fine. By "always" I meant "in living memory." Better?
"Also, I don't know how they align in other countries."
What's the price of tea in China?
That's because conservatives tend to live in communities where there is a good relationship between police and the community; where crime is low; and where police are seen as helpful and useful.
Conservatives don't think in such bizarre ideological abstractions. They think about whether they want some random out of town crazy to destroy Officer Smith, who lives down the road and whose daughter goes to school with their kids.
Of course, if you live in an environment where "police" are abstract minions of the state, where nobody knows their neighbor, and where police abuse is rampant, you end up with different preferences.
'Destroy Officer Smith' is the key, a goodly portion of suits that would be brought would likely be the typical resentment culture attempts at completely destroying a person's life. There's something about progressivism and feminism that makes live and let live impossible for them to accept.
Leftist groups would absolutely be endlessly suing cops. And not for them having actually done anything wrong. With the left, we can’t have nice things.
It's something getting beaten by libertarians has taught democrats they'd better support. That way maybe the libertarians will butcher some other looter adversary with their spoiler votes next election. We win freedom by allowing voters to make the worst looters lose!
Can you name any election in which a libertarian defeated a Democrat for any office? Go back as far as you want, I know your brain is perpetually locked in 1972. Go ahead. Name one. We'll leave aside that libertarians didn't discover the issue of qualified immunity until about 20 years after leftist legal activists created it and it's never been a campaign issue or been included in the Libertarian Party platform. Just name a single election wherein a libertarian defeated a Democratic Party challenger.
He just rants and races nonsensically about ‘looters’, ‘spoiler votes’, ‘the Gee oh Pee’, and ‘mystical bigots’. Hank just gibber, and is not meant to be taken seriously. He’s probably at least as mentally infirm as Biden.
By "crime" christianofascist looters mean production and trade of what folks are willing and able to pay for.
You mean like oil and natural gas, you senile old cocksucking partyline Democrat piece of worm shit?
Hank is becoming the new Michael Hihn.
Both “Michael Hihn” and “Hank Phillips” used to be minor personalities in the big-L Libertarian party. There have been a few more names used like that on Reason. My assumption is that there is some lunatic who just picks names like this for his socks.
(Of course, it is also entirely possible that libertarian has-beens from the 1970’s all suffer from the same mental issues; maybe it’s the result of one of the drugs popular at the time.)
You're kidding, right? Conservatives have always given vocal support for cops while preaching tough on crime rhetoric. Holding police accountable is weakness.
Right? Remember how those evil conservatives spent an entire year cackling gleefully about a racist cop murdering an unarmed person of a different race in cold blood and getting away with it with no criminal or civil penalties? Aren't they a bunch of sick, evil fucks?
The article poses a false dichotomy: "QI yes or no". You can believe in the principle of QI but differ on the range of cases where it applies and also a range of reforms.
In general, it's unclear why police officers should be personally civilly liable for actions they took in performance of their jobs. You can make an argument that officer misconduct should be handled by disciplinary measures and criminal law. Furthermore, ending QI will just mean that tax payers are going to shell out more money for massive judgments.
I do think that QI should be reformed or ended; but the other side isn't as ludicrous as people make it out to be.
(But then, I also think that police should be abolished and replaced by private security, at which point QI becomes a private insurance matter.)
So we're going to start suing individual teachers for teaching crt?
Is Billy insinuating that the looter politician would take things that don't belong to him AND say things that aren't true? I am shocked, SHOCKED to hear of such things happening in our Kleptocracy!
That's cool and all but how does it relate to the GOP Christanofascists secretly posing as a majority of Democrats and Democratic Party-controlled states to pass Prohibition a century ago?
None of Youngkin’s well-intended actions reduce crimes overall, it only changes who the perpetrators are. In the American system - with maximum individual freedoms/rights - there will be more citizen-committed crimes. Taking those citizen freedoms away doesn’t reduce crime at all, it increases crimes by oath-sworn officials like criminal statutes Title 18 US Code 242 and 245.
Under a foreign model of government (like Youngkin is currently promoting) increases authoritarian crimes by oath-sworn officials. American officials, including police-chiefs, swear a constitutional “Oath of Office” to the U.S. Constitution.
America has an “indirect” supreme and superseding loyalty oath - American Oath of Office - as a condition and limit of job authority. Not a single police officer or official in the USA takes an oath to “protect & serve”, there is no oath to the people directly and not to the nation directly. Any oath that violates the constitutional Oath of Office is not a legal oath at all.
Since unconstitutional authority has never been legitimate nor official duties, there should be no sovereign immunity or qualified immunity protection for officials violating their oath under Article VI of the U.S. Constitution and Title 5 US Code 3331.
I don't believe that qualified immunity should exist at all. Where it is necessary for a public official to do something that is against the law under ordinary circumstances, the law should specifically make allowances for that. In fact, this principle is already well established in the law. For example, it is illegal for someone to force his way onto private property but a cop may do so, *when he or she has a warrant*.
No exceptions for anyone unless explicitly spelled out. No one should be able to shelter under the umbrella of "qualified immunity".
They don't even need a warrant, all they have to do is manufacture "probable cause". "The dog signaled! I smelled weed! I heard the toilet flush!"
No QI
No public sector unions
No records secrecy
The biggest thing about being part of the libertarian party I disagree with is the over the top, irrational hatred of qualified immunity. If it was true that police feel there's no repercussions for any and all policing decisions they make, no matter how stupid, we wouldn't see the hands off approach most police are taking. Almost daily we see examples of police just standing back and letting criminals run rampant. Why? It's not worth losing a career or being called racist, fascist, etc... if you were a cop and felt QI really gave you a penalty free license to police any way you see fit this wouldn't be happening. This is the libertarian version of hands up don't shoot, or police are activity hunting black men, etc.... the vast majority of police encounters are just and professional. The ones that aren't should be addressed, but stripping police of QI is throwing the baby out with the bathwater
And yet there are hordes of cases of Police attacking innocent people and getting away with it scot free.
And there always will be. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Ditch QI and let the courts dismiss every suit against a cop for lack of standing, or let the judge handicap the proceeding in favor of the cop, or better still, let the cases proceed to the very same juries that let the cops off every time they get criminally charged.
It all depends on who you are attacking. White cop black perp the cop is total toast no matter the circumstances.
Other situations it depends. Like for protests what are their politics. Liberal anything goes. Conservative lock them up without bail for a year awaiting trespassing charges.
No there's not. And thank you for making my case
Their stance on QI is really amont the least of the LP’s problems. In fact, most people simply don’t care about QI either way.
In any case, the consistent libertarian position on policing is that it should be privatized, just like courts, roads, and pretty much everything else. At that point, QI becomes a non-issue.
Split-second decisions in volatile situations is one thing. But extending QI to situations where there was no urgency or danger is unconscionable.
Split-second decisions in volatile situations is one thing.
The law was already accommodating of this kind of thing, even before qualified immunity was a thing, and I would hope that most of us can agree that cops, prosecutors and judges shouldn't be completely unreasonable assholes. The point is, is that public officials should not enjoy any rights that others don't have, unless specifically spelled out. That system works. There is no need for anyone having extra rights on top of that.
Even if you’re for qualified immunity, it needs to be enacted by elected representatives, not imposed by judges. You need to be for bills that tell judges to heed the will of voters.
Qualified immunity is not bad in and of itself. It let's Police do their job without worry of every contact or arrest leading to a lawsuit. It is the current application of qualified immunity that is the problem, the theory no cop can ever do anything wrong. Police leadership and the courts are the problem.