Why Is It So Hard To Admit When You're Wrong?
When it comes to political polarization, it's confirmation bias all the way down.

People who commit intentional murder—and only those people—should be executed. That's a view I held for virtually all of my adult life.
I am fully aware of the decadeslong debate over the death penalty. I have made it my business over the years to read the many conflicting studies on the practice's efficacy. But I didn't care if executing convicted murderers has a deterrent effect or not: I supported capital punishment because I want to do justice.
I am by nature a peaceable man; I have not hit anyone in anger since my teenage years. But my conception of what is just is informed by what I would want to do to a person who, beyond any shadow of a doubt, willfully killed my wife, another family member, or a close friend: inflict barbarous atonement for a barbaric act. One of the chief purposes of state-sanctioned execution has been to maintain social peace by forestalling blood feuds between people who would otherwise seek justice on their own.
I was not alone in advocating death sentences for murderers. Gallup reports that an average of 66 percent of Americans (and a majority of both parties) favored the death penalty for convicted murderers during the first decade of this century. By 2020, however, that number had dropped to 55 percent. Gallup has been documenting a widening gap on the issue between Republicans and Democrats over the past two decades, with a rock-solid 80 percent of Republicans still favoring the death penalty even as Democratic support has dropped to under 40 percent.
Despite that recent shift in the numbers, any rancor over the widening partisan divide with respect to the death penalty has been relatively mild compared to the growing estrangement over such issues as guns, affirmative action, climate change, and vaccinations. Research shows Americans increasingly align their opinions on hot-button issues along partisan lines and that they are likely to stick with those positions once committed.
Today, if you are a member of one of the two major American political parties, you are statistically likely to dislike and distrust members of the other party. While your affection for your own party has not grown in recent years, your distaste for the other party has intensified. You distrust news sources preferred by the other side. Its supporters seem increasingly alien to you: different not just in partisan affiliation but in social, cultural, economic, and even racial characteristics. You may even consider them subhuman in some respects.
You're also likely to be wrong about the characteristics of members of the other party, about what they actually believe, and even about their views of you. But you are trapped in a partisan prison by the psychological effects of confirmation bias. Being confronted with factual information that contradicts your previously held views does not change them, and it may even reinforce them. Vilification of the other party perversely leads partisans to behave in precisely the norm-violating and game-rigging ways they fear their opponents will. It's a classic vicious cycle, and it's accelerating.
It also traps individuals within their preexisting worldviews. As a libertarian, conventional left/right partisan splits over many public policy issues are not particularly relevant to me. But even as my unease about the death penalty slowly mounted, I found in myself an incredibly powerful reluctance to publicly change my view and renounce prior commitments on the matter. Why is it so hard to admit when you're wrong, especially in the realm of politics?
Social scientists have a term for the phenomenon described above: affective polarization. In the U.S. context, that means Democrats' and Republicans' growing tendency to dislike and distrust each other.
Since 1978, the Northwestern University psychologist Eli Finkel and his colleagues have been trying to capture this phenomenon with a thermometer. By asking Americans to describe their feelings on a scale from cold (0 degrees) to warm (100 degrees), they've found that people feel quite warmly about their co-partisans, consistently reporting between 70 and 75 degrees. In contrast, feelings toward opposing partisans have plummeted from a mild 48 degrees in the 1970s to a frosty 20 degrees today: an emotional cold snap. "Since 2012—and for the first time on record—out-party hate has been stronger than in-party love," they write in the October 30, 2020, issue of Science.
The consequences of this big chill are apparent in several other studies, notably the work of the Louisiana State University political scientist Nathan Kalmoe and the University of Maryland political scientist Lilliana Mason. One of their more striking results is that 60 percent to 70 percent of both parties in a 2017–18 survey said they thought the other party was a "serious threat to the United States and its people"; 40 percent of respondents in both parties thought the other party was "downright evil." In another poll, 15 percent of Republicans and 20 percent of Democrats agreed with the brutal sentiment that the country would be better off if large numbers of opposing partisans in the public today "just died." And 18 percent of Democrats and 13 percent of Republicans said that violence would be justified if the opposing party won the 2020 presidential election.
Such studies suggest that there is something substantially different about the virulence of partisan sentiment in recent years and that the trend isn't going away.
Why do Americans increasingly think ill of their political opponents? To some extent, people may be taking their cues from political elites. Parsing the roll call votes of Democratic and Republican legislators reveals steeply increasing partisan polarization in Congress since the 1970s. In a 2018 Electoral Studies article on how party elite polarization affects voters, the Texas Tech political scientist Kevin K. Banda and the University of Massachusetts Lowell political scientist John Cluverius find that "partisans respond to increasing levels of elite polarization by expressing higher levels of affective polarization, i.e. more negative evaluations of the opposing party relative to their own."
The Emory University political scientists Steven Webster and Alan Abramowitz have been tracking the growing mutual dislike of Democratic and Republican partisans, and they note that the growing ideological distance between Republican and Democratic Party elites may be contributing to broader partisan polarization.
In addition, partisan affiliation used to be much less correlated to other social and political divisions. Mason and the Louisiana State University political scientist Nicholas Davis have analyzed survey data that YouGov/Polimetrix and the American National Election Studies collected from 1948 to 2012. In a 2015 working paper, the two scholars report that "the stronger and more strongly aligned our religious, racial, and partisan -identities, the more neatly our parties correspond to our ideological identities. This increased ideological consistency corresponds to an increase in partisan bias and intolerance across the electorate."
Even with the growing ideological split, partisans dramatically overestimate the substantive differences between members of the two parties.
In a 2015 YouGov survey, respondents reckoned that 32 percent of Democrats are LGBT, 29 percent are atheists or agnostics, and 39 percent belong to unions; the right figures are really 6, 9, and 11 percent, respectively. Meanwhile, they estimated that 38 percent of Republicans earn over $250,000 per year, 39 percent are over age 65, and 42 percent are evangelicals; actually, just 2 percent earn that much, 21 percent are senior citizens, and 34 percent are evangelicals.
Democrats and Republicans also regularly overestimate just how much their opponents loathe them. On a sliding scale from 0 (least evolved) to 100 (most evolved) Republicans rated the humanity of their fellow partisans at around 85 points and that of Democrats at 62 points, a 23-point difference. Conversely, Democrats gave 83 points to their political confreres and only 62 points to Republicans, a 21-point difference. Even more interesting is that the Democrats guessed that the Republicans would award them just 36 points (26 points less than the true number), while Republicans estimated that Democrats would give them a measly 28 points (34 points less than the true number).
"Democrats and Republicans equally dislike and dehumanize each other," concluded the University of Pennsylvania political scientist Samantha Moore-Berg and her colleagues in a 2020 study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, "but think that the levels of prejudice and dehumanization held by the outgroup party are approximately twice as strong as actually reported by a representative sample of Democrats and Republicans."
One of the more dire consequences of this exaggerated meta-perception—the perception partisans have of the other side's perception of them—is that it seems to make people more willing to support illiberal and antidemocratic policies, such as curbs on free speech and political participation.
Moore-Berg's findings were essentially replicated in a 2021 study by the University of California Santa Barbara social scientist Alexander Landry and his colleagues, who further found that "despite the socially progressive and egalitarian outlook traditionally associated with liberalism, the most liberal Democrats actually expressed the greatest dehumanization of Republicans." Democrats also expressed greater antidemocratic outgroup spite than Republicans.
The Yale political scientists Matthew Graham and Milan Svolik conducted experiments asking partisans if they would still support their party's candidates if those standard-bearers advocated various policies that violate democratic norms. Among the policies: a redistricting plan that would give their own party two extra seats despite a decline at the polls, and a proposal to reduce the number of polling stations in areas where the opposition party is strong. The researchers found that only a small percentage of voters would withhold their support from politicians from their own parties who violated such norms. "Put bluntly," they conclude, "our estimates suggest that in the vast majority of U.S. House districts, a majority-party candidate could openly violate one of the democratic principles we examined and nonetheless get away with it."
According to Kalmoe and Mason, about 20 percent of both Democrats and Republicans agreed that if their own parties break a few rules to oppose the other party, it's because they need to do it for the sake of the country.
Given that many of these views about the opposing party are mistaken, would more accurate information help solve the problem? Unfortunately, a large body of research shows that political partisans tend to see what they want to see when confronted with data and that they tend to seek out information that confirms their previously held views, even when the cost to doing so is clear.
In a 2012 experiment, partisan viewers were shown the same protest video. "When participants thought that the video depicted liberally-minded protesters (i.e. opposing military recruitment on campus), Republicans were more in favor of a police intervention than Democrats, whereas the opposite emerged when participants thought the video showed a conservative protest (i.e. opposing an abortion clinic)," observed the New York University psychologist Jay J. Van Bavel and the Leiden University psychologist Andrea Pereira in a 2018 Trends in Cognitive Science article. "Faced with the same visual information, people seem to have seen different things and drawn different conclusions depending on their political affiliations."
But are partisans really seeing different things? Perhaps they are mostly cheerleading their team rather than asserting actual beliefs. This is the thesis explored by the University of Nottingham philosopher Michael Hannon in a 2020 paper for Political Epistemology. He points to a survey of nearly 1,400 Americans conducted in January 2017. Researchers showed half of the respondents photos, simply labeled A and B, of the crowds on the National Mall during Barack Obama's 2009 inauguration and Donald Trump's 2017 inauguration. They were asked which photo depicted the crowd for each president. Forty-one percent of Trump voters said the photo with the larger crowd depicted the Trump inauguration, which was actually the one from the Obama inauguration. Only 8 percent of Hillary Clinton voters picked the wrong photo. The researchers argue that it is likely that Trump voters picked the photo with the larger crowd as a way to express their partisan loyalties and show their support for him.
More tellingly, the researchers asked the other half of the respondents which photo depicted the larger crowd. One answer was clearly correct. But Trump voters were seven times more likely (15 percent) than Clinton voters (2 percent) to assert that the much less populous photo of Trump's inauguration had more people. Remarkably, 26 percent of Trump voters with college degrees answered incorrectly. "When a Republican says that Trump's inauguration photo has more people, they are not actually disagreeing with those who claim otherwise. They're just cheerleading," argues Hannon. "People are simply making claims about factual issues to signal their allegiance to a particular ideological community."
Partisan cheerleading sounds harmless—not much different from fans rooting for a local football team, right? Nope. Hannon argues that "if our disagreements are not based on genuine reasons or arguments, then we cannot engage with each other's views." If team loyalty is the main thing, then the upshot for Hannon is that "we cannot decrease polarization by reasoned debate."
A 2015 study in the Quarterly Journal of Political Science sought to distinguish partisan cheerleading from sincere partisan divergence. The Northwestern University political scientist John Bullock and his colleagues found that offering participants small payments for giving correct and "don't know" answers to politically salient questions reduced the partisan gap between Republicans and Democrats by about 80 percent.
"To the extent that factual beliefs are determined by partisanship, paying partisans to answer correctly should not affect their responses to factual questions. But it does," they observe. "We find that even modest payments substantially reduce the observed gaps between Democrats and Republicans, which suggests that Democrats and Republicans do not hold starkly different beliefs about many important facts." Based on these results, the researchers urge analysts of public opinion to "consider the possibility that the appearance of polarization in American politics is, to some extent, an artifact of survey measurement rather than evidence of real and deeply held differences in assessments of facts."
On the other hand is a series of experiments conducted by the Texas A&M political scientist Erik Peterson and the Stanford political scientist Shanto Iyengar. As they report in a 2021 article for the American Journal of Political Science, they asked Republican and Democratic partisans to evaluate the truth of claims about several hot-button issues, such as "illegal immigrants commit violent crime at a significantly higher rate than legal American citizens" and "40 percent of firearm sales in the U.S. occur without a background check." (In both cases, the correct answer was they don't.) The researchers found that 97 percent of the Democrats got the right answer about immigrant crime vs. 45 percent of the Republicans. But on gun sales, only 22 percent of the Democrats got the right answer, compared to 56 percent of the Republicans.
Peterson and Iyengar also gave respondents access to various news sources so that they could check for additional information on whether their beliefs were accurate. These included sources identifiably associated with both liberal and conservative partisan loyalties, so-called mainstream sources, and expert sources from peer-reviewed journals. Some 29 percent turned to co-partisan sources, 26 percent to expert sources, 38 percent to mainstream sources, and only 7 percent to out-party sources.
The researchers offered another set of respondents a small monetary incentive for providing accurate answers, along with access to the various news sources. Even with the incentive, they found, "roughly 60 to 70 percent of the initial partisan differences remain." That is evidence for some cheerleading, but it also suggests that most partisans sincerely believe factually inaccurate claims.
If unincentivized partisans are mostly cheerleading, Peterson and Iyengar hypothesized, reliance on congenial partisan news sources should decline when they are paid to provide an accurate response. On the other hand, if they are confident that their responses are already correct, partisans' preferences for biased information would be unaffected by a financial incentive. Peterson and Iyengar report that "the incentives have no effect whatsoever on news choice."
Nearly 900 participants in Peterson and Iyengar's experimental surveys also agreed to have their everyday media diets tracked using an app installed on their computers. Out in the wild, these participants likewise tended to rely on news sources that confirmed their partisan views.
The proliferation of self-consciously partisan broadcast media, such as Fox and MSNBC, and of partisan gathering places on social media platforms provides political sectarians plenty of opportunity to find information that confirms their ideological predispositions and disparages their opponents' views. In 2019, a Perspectives on Psychological Science review of 51 studies testing for political bias found that "both liberals and conservatives were biased in favor of information that confirmed their political beliefs, and the two groups were biased to very similar degrees."
"Our studies indicate that partisans are genuinely committed to the inaccurate beliefs they report in surveys," Peterson and Iyengar conclude. It's confirmation bias all the way down.
Maybe the way out of this quagmire is to examine why partisans believe their views are correct in the first place and why they're so sure their opponents are wrong.
Hrishikesh Joshi, a philosopher at Bowling Green State University, did just that in a 2020 paper called "What Are the Chances You're Right About Everything?" He begins by listing nine highly politicized propositions: abortion is wrong; a carbon tax to address global warming is a good idea; illegal immigration is a serious problem; homosexual couples should be allowed to marry; the federal minimum wage should be raised; controls on gun ownership should be increased; racial affirmative action in college admissions is not justified; African Americans are unfairly targeted by police; and there are too many regulations on U.S. businesses.
Joshi contends that these propositions are orthogonal—that is, your position on one doesn't necessarily commit you to any particular position with respect to the others. Your stance on abortion rights should not, as a matter of pure logic, suggest anything about your views on climate change. And yet we all know that by quizzing people about their views on a couple of hot-button political issues, we can often figure out where they stand on the rest of Joshi's list of nine. If they support gun control, they are likely to favor affirmative action. If they don't support gun control, they are likely to think business is overregulated.
"Since the two sides disagree with respect to a host of political issues," Joshi writes, "one side's getting it consistently right entails that the other side is getting things consistently wrong." Somehow, each side's political opponents "succeed in consistently getting the wrong answer with respect to a large domain of rationally separable political questions!" If that were so, argues Joshi, those opponents would be not just unreliable but anti-reliable: They would reliably choose the wrong answer on each separate issue. He challenges partisans to "identify psychological differences between conservatives and liberals that can plausibly ground an explanation of why one side is anti-reliable with respect to the issues of partisan disagreement."
Joshi himself explores various ways that this could happen. One possibility is that they are systematically wrong because they share a core false belief.
As an example, Joshi posits a libertarian belief in a limited-government night-watchman state. For proponents of an extensive social welfare state, such a libertarian would be anti-reliable with respect to funding universal health care, generous unemployment insurance schemes, and subsidized housing for low-income individuals. But as Joshi points out, these issues are related to the libertarian's core belief and so are not orthogonal—that is, they are rationally related to one another.
Joshi evaluates other possible explanations for the anti-reliability of partisan opponents. Is one group of partisans on average more intelligent than the other? Not really. Joshi cites a 2019 study, "(Ideo)Logical Reasoning: Ideology Impairs Sound Reasoning," that found an equal tendency among liberals and conservatives to ignore the soundness of classically structured logical syllogisms in order to reach conclusions that supported the political beliefs that they already held. (He also notes that some 2018 research by Danish psychologists finds that greater cognitive ability predicts greater social liberalism but greater economic conservatism, a combination that may sound familiar to libertarians.)
Recent research finds neither liberals nor conservatives exhibiting greater distrust of scientific expertise, Joshi notes, yet greater science literacy correlates with more polarized beliefs on such topics as climate change and stem cell research. In other words, greater scientific knowledge may facilitate defenses of positions motivated by nonscientific concerns.
Another possibility: Perhaps your opponents are consistently wrong on political issues because they are in thrall to a perverted set of morals. But a 2018 study in Political Psychology, "Deep Alignment with Country or Political Party Shrinks the Gap Between Conservatives' and Liberals' Moral Values," found that liberals and conservatives broadly share the same moral foundations and values.
Basically, liberals and conservatives do not formulate their opinions in fundamentally different ways. And that, Joshi argues, suggests that partisans cannot account for how their opponents must be anti-reliable.
"It is not plausible to suppose that there are some people who are in general drawn toward falsity," concurs the University of Colorado philosopher Michael Huemer. "Even if there are people who are not very good at getting to the truth (they are stupid, or irrational, etc.), their beliefs should be, at worst, unrelated to the truth; they should not be systematically directed away from the truth. Thus, while there could be a 'true cluster' of political beliefs, the present consideration strongly suggests that neither the liberal nor the conservative belief-cluster is it."
Joshi acknowledges that his arguments about anti-reliability of opponents do not apply to libertarians, Marxists, or others whose views on political issues are derived from a core principle. (As it happens, I agree with five of the nine propositions Joshi highlights.) Instead, his analysis applies to partisans who confidently hold virtually all the opinions on one side or the other of the conventional right/left spectrum. "The problem for the partisan is not simply that someone disagrees with her," argues Joshi. "The problem is that political beliefs are distributed across the population in such a way as to make it highly unlikely that the partisan's beliefs are all or mostly true." This implies partisans should at least become less confident in their views.
Joshi suggests that partisans seek out and engage with the best arguments for their opponents' convictions. His recommendation mirrors John Stuart Mill's admonition in On Liberty: "He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side; if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion."
In an intriguing 2020 study in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, a team of Duke psychologists notes that "Americans have become increasingly likely to dislike, distrust, and derogate their ideological opponents on contemporary social and political issues." Why? Perhaps partisans assume that their opponents do not have good reasons for their views, leading them to believe their opponents must be intellectually or morally deficient. What would happen, the Duke researchers wondered, if we provided partisans with their opponents' arguments on such issues as concealed gun carry, mandatory body-worn cameras on police, and universal health care?
The good news is that when presented with reasons favoring their opponents' views, partisans were less likely to report that their opponents lacked intellectual ability or moral character. "Our results provide evidence that reasons serve a novel function distinct from persuasion, decision change, or acquiring knowledge," conclude the researchers. "Even if the consideration of opposing reasons does not induce a change in one's position, our results indicate that presenting opposing reasons might at least make people less likely to view their opponents negatively. This, in turn, might have the potential to make people more willing to listen to opponents and more willing to engage in genuine discussion with their opponents, which might have positive implications for compromise, fruitful deliberation, and the pursuit of a common good."
With all that in mind, let's turn back to the partisan split over the death penalty. For years I defended capital punishment in arguments with friends, colleagues, random people I met in bars, and my patient wife. Although I don't think I ever persuaded anyone to come around to my view, I hope that, since I was giving reasons for my position, at least some of my interlocutors concluded that I was not entirely lacking in intellect and morals.
At the heart of many of my opponents' desire to abolish capital punishment was their revulsion toward state-sanctioned execution. Modern civilized people, they argued, simply cannot endorse such barbarity. They recognized that I did not share that view. So they would cite studies purporting to show that the death penalty did not deter murderers. I, of course, sought to persuade them using the same sort of evidence—that is, contrary research showing that the death penalty did deter would-be murderers.
For years, these back-and-forth arguments did nothing to blunt my desire to enact vengeful justice on those who killed other people with brutal malice aforethought.
Many of my opponents did, however, deploy one argument against the death penalty that pierced my conscience: the possibility that an innocent person might be wrongfully executed for a murder that he or she did not commit. As evidence, they would point to the rising number—the count currently stands at 186—of people exonerated after being confined to death row. I had to admit that this fact was disquieting. Nevertheless, I would respond by pointing out that since the Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty as constitutional in 1976, none of the more than 1,500 people who have been executed were later conclusively proved innocent.
Then in 2021, belated DNA testing of genetic material from the murder weapon in the case of Ledell Lee pointed to an unknown someone else. Lee was executed for murder by the state of Arkansas four years ago. Perhaps he was guilty, but I find the evidence that the government executed an innocent man quite compelling in his case.
My desire for retribution has not abated even a little bit. But the arguments marshalled over the years by friends, colleagues, random bar patrons, and, yes, my wife have finally convinced me that the death penalty cannot be justly administered. I was wrong to support it.
Changing my mind on this topic was wrenchingly difficult—and this despite the fact that I was joining my fellow libertarians, who for the most part oppose the death penalty administered by the state, meaning that I had little at stake in terms of my other prior commitments.
Everyday experience and political science data amply confirm that affective polarization between partisans in the U.S. is growing. The political divide is sustained and made ever wider by the fact that many Americans tend to seek out information and arguments that confirm what they already believe and to discount contradictory evidence.
Joshi persuasively challenges the notion that one wing or the other of the conventional right/left political spectrum is likely to be right about every issue. Since that is so, he counsels partisans to be less confident of their views and to seek out and engage the best arguments of their opponents. In fact, other recent hopeful research confirms that when partisans are presented with reasons favoring their opponents' views, they think better of them. The question is: How likely is it that today's partisans will stop shouting past one another long enough to realize that the other side may have a point?
The fact that it took decades for my friends and colleagues to persuade me that I was wrong about the death penalty—even in the absence of strong affective polarization—is not a good omen.
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The death penalty is a good thing not because it serves any kind of justice but simply because there is no point in housing and feeding the sort of people it is inflicted on.
But it's not always inflicted on the right people. Lots of people are acquitted.
Shockingly few are acquitted of their crimes, probably because the death penalty forces a level of scrutiny on punishments that "life in prison" does not. There's no extra injustice to looking closely at a case before a particularly barbaric punishment versus simply leaving a person to rot in a cell for eternity without close consideration.
“probably because the death penalty forces a level of scrutiny on punishments that "life in prison" does not.”
Cite?
When's the last time you saw a "justice for whoever" campaign for someone sentenced to life in prison. Literally no one cares if an innocent man is sent to prison for life.
I care.
Mike is the BEST person to talk about people admitting when they are wrong.
https://reason.com/2021/09/09/california-is-set-to-outlaw-unannounced-condom-removal/?comments=true#comment-9091773
That is Mike insisting that he “would never look to Rolling Stone” for news, after spreading their bogus ivermectin story only days earlier. Consider that: He didn’t apologize. He didn’t even try to ignore his mistake. He brazenly tried to dunk on Rolling Stone to make himself look like an arbiter of truth.
Single Mom Makes $89,844/Yr in Her Spare Time on The Computer Without Selling Anything. you can bring from $5000-$8000 of extra income every month. working at home for 4 hours a day, and earning could be even bigger.
The potential with this is endless….. WorkJoin1
Literally it’s called the Innocence Project.
https://innocenceproject.org/
I would like the death penalty applied to "monsters" only. Multiple, brazen and admitted murders only. The kind who are often murdered by inmates anyway.
In college, my Anthropology professor had done his thesis work in studying the California prison system. He said the convicts on Death Row were in favor of the death penalty in one circumstance -- for death row prisoners who kill other prisoners. Their reasoning is that once a murderer is already on Death Row, the only protection possible for the other Death Row inmates possible is to execute the person.
Mike is the BEST person to talk about people admitting when they are wrong.
https://reason.com/2021/09/09/california-is-set-to-outlaw-unannounced-condom-removal/?comments=true#comment-9091773
That is Mike insisting that he “would never look to Rolling Stone” for news, after spreading their bogus ivermectin story only days earlier. Consider that: He didn’t apologize. He didn’t even try to ignore his mistake. He brazenly tried to dunk on Rolling Stone to make himself look like an arbiter of truth.
You used to be interesting. Now you’re just a repetitive douche, posting the same thing over and over.
You’re becoming just like the ass you’re criticizing.
...says Mike's sad and crusty sock.
It’s pathetic, isn’t it?
Yes.
The only sad and crusty sock is the one you use to get off to mom jeans.
And this is somehow a bad thing? Mom jeans are hot.
So circular firing squad. Noyce.
OT but why is the comment function so retarded? I have tried to post a new comment several times, and got the dreaded scroll to the top and no post result.
You didn’t donate enough during the Webathon.
Damnit, NPR doesn't do that. It maintains that somnambulent voice and that "Hmm...hmm...hmm..." whether you give or not.
The death penalty is not a good thing because I don't trust the government one iota, and particularly not surrounding matters of killing people.
The last ten years should illustrate to everyone what stupid, corrupt, psychotic fucks your average cop, judge and prosecutor are.
Sure, housing and feeding the sort of people it is inflicted on is expensive, but look at how many people are later found innocent thanks to DNA and other new evidence. At least a life sentence doesn't turn the state into an ordinary murder if new evidence is discovered.
Plus, I don't trust the current establishment and clerisy not to soon extend the death penalty to "political crimes".
What if it was a libertarian government?
Especially a libertarian government.
Look at all the fakers hanging around here. Imagine Shrike, Mike and Sqrlsy with the power to execute people.
WHO is lusting after killing their political enemies? It ain't me!
https://www.newsweek.com/pro-trump-congressional-candidate-says-audit-all-50-states-execute-all-involved-1632838
Pro-Trump Congressional Candidate Says 'Audit All 50 states' and 'Execute All Involved'
I say again... BURN the witches AND the vote-stealing Demon-Craps! Bring ON the 1-party "R" state! (I say this when "channeling" MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer the Chthonic Cunt, Twat of Twits, that is.)
Asshole spaz afflicted with TDS gets another flag!
"It ain't me!"
It's you. Look at all the lying you do and the hate you post.
I do hate evil and hypocrisy; I 'fess!
Now, MammaryBahnFuhrer? SHE just absolutely LOVES these things! (With lying as a side dish.)
You shouldn’t hate yourself sarc.
No, he should just end it all.
EvilBahnFuhrer, drinking Sexless Kool-Aid in a spiraling vortex of darkness, cannot or will not see the Light… It’s a VERY sad song! Kinda like this…
He’s a real Kool-Aid Man,
Sitting in his Kool-Aid Land,
Playing with his Kool-Aid Gland,
Has no thoughts that help the people,
He wants to turn them all to sheeple!
On the sheeple, his Master would feast,
Master? A disaster! Just the nastiest Beast!
Kool-Aid man, please listen,
You don’t know, what you’re missin’,
Kool-Aid man, better thoughts are at hand,
The Beast, to LEAVE, you must COMMAND!
A helpful book is to be found here: M. Scott Peck, Glimpses of the Devil
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1439167265/reasonmagazinea-20/
Hey EvilBahnFuhrer …
If EVERYONE who makes you look bad, by being smarter and better-looking than you, killed themselves, per your wishes, then there would be NO ONE left!
Who would feed you? Who’s tits would you suck at, to make a living? WHO would change your perpetually-smelly DIAPERS?!!?
You’d better come up with a better plan, Stan!
Funny how "vote-stealing" is criminal.. But I guess it would only be a capitol crime in sqlsy's book if a Republican won.
His book requires crayons.
And unfortunately he ate most of them.
The 1st 2 are progressives, who are totalitarians by nature. They are always on about denying rights, basic care, food to the out-group, so, yeah, not trusting them is a given. Sqrsly seems a bit unstable...
Speakimg of, this is somewhat on-topic and off-topic--Here is one more reason why I love the political philosophy of Libertarianism, but avoid the Libertarian Party like the Plague:
Former Libertarian Party of Iowa chair arrested, accused of stealing party funds
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/2021/12/10/former-libertarian-party-iowa-chair-accused-stealing-party-funds-police/6461310001/
People within the Party and bearing the good name of the political philosophy can't even get it right on the most bread-and-butter matter of Party organization and ethics!
Between this, the in-fighting in the LP New Hampshire, Augustus Sol Invictus' psychopathic violence, and the silliness of the 2016 National Convention, I'm thinking maybe the political philosophy needs a new untainted label. More to come later as I think of some.
But, yes, you're right here, ML: I would never bet my Life, Liberty, or Property or anyone else's on this or any Party.
I agree. But I also don't trust the government to put people behind bars when they should. We have had a couple of local incidents lately where judges released suspects or convicts with rather optimistic expectations about behavior, proven wrong by additional aggravated assaults, robberies, and one murder.
"... there is no point in housing and feeding the sort of people it is inflicted on."
-
Unfortunately, that is generally cheaper than effecting an execution.
Unfortunately, shipping them off to Coventry (as when the Brits sent prisoners off to Australia) isn't available anymore as a practical option for dealing with criminals. It's a great way to get them out of civilized society without having to support them financially.
We would contribute to your ticket.
We could still drop them off on Aussie shores. Sounds like the gene pool there needs a boost anyway.
Indeed we could.
Aktually, we could!
Coventry for life could still be an option with man-made atolls-for one. It would really be more fitting for hardened predators who do things for which no restitution is possible. And rescue would be possible in cases of false accusation.
Te extra cost comes from Gov imposed mandates and how the Gov runs it. That's like saying private school is more expensive because Gov school is free
the death penalty works every single time it's used. it is always effective at it's task. arguing that innocent people are executed is a weak argument. that is an argument for improving the judicial process, not for eliminating the penalty. every person convicted of murder should be executed. period.
“that is an argument for improving the judicial process, not for eliminating the penalty.”
It’s an argument for both. And until the former is achieved, the later will save innocent lives.
It works for the one executed, of course, but how would it deter someone who doesn't fear death or who wants martyrdom, such as Islamic Jihadis?
And "improving the judicial process" in this case requires Omniscience, which is a logically contradictory trait, since Omniscience is knowledge of all things at once without acquisition and verification. Omniscience also contradicts Volition, since Omniscience requires that the future is pre-set and unchangeable.
A better option for punishing the murderer and protecting the innocent falsely accused and protecting society at large is lifetime exile on artificial atolls for one The falsely accused could be rescued, the truly convicted left to their own devices to live.
https://reason.com/2021/12/02/best-selling-author-alice-sebold-apologizes-to-innocent-man-who-served-16-years-for-her-rape/
The Illinois governor commuted all death sentences to life without parole because more death row prisoners had been exonerated than were executed one year. All those exonerations were due to prosecutor or police fraud.
Is that your idea of extra vigilance?
Nice article. Here are a few more thoughts: the Civil War made American political parties "unnatural". The Democrats were a bizarre alliance between white southerners and northern ethnics, mostly Catholic but also including Jews. The Republican Party was "the" party in the North, except for a few big cities, and occupied the "vast middle". Now the two parties are more "natural".
In addition, there are lots of reasons why people are reluctant to admit that they were "wrong". Ex-communists often try to white-wash their past ("If believing in equal rights for everyone made you a communist, then I was a communist") first because it is embarrassing to admit that they endorsed mass murder, but also because, often, they were "young" at the time, and whatever you do when you were young will seem precious to you. "We were young! It was exciting!" There is also simple group loyalty. It is "interesting" to see how many groups in the U.S. are being put under great strain by Donald Trump. This includes Republicans, libertarians, Catholics, Jews, Evangelicals, etc., etc. It's hard to turn your back on both your friends and, often, your paycheck. And, of course, us liberals are pretty fissiparous ourselves.
“fissiparous”
Wow, good vocabularying.
Seems to me that many people don't even bother to seriously think about their political positions. They simple become party members and go along with that party's positions. In other words, it is all about intellectual laziness and fear of rejection by one's "club."
What's with all this hand-wringing and pearl-clutching about "confirmation bias", and other pointy-headed silly things, when...
The Bider-Grunch has stolen Trumpsmas!!! Get a grip, people, and focus on the BIGGLY problems around here!!! Man the battle stations, full speed ahead, DAMN the Lizard People AND their mind-controlled vote thieves!!!
How the Bider-Grunch Stole Trumpsmas
‘Twas the night before Trumpsmas,
And all through the lands,
Patriotic feelings were stirring our glands!
The voters ALL firmly fixed to vote RED!
Vote BLUE?!? They’d rather be dead!
Visions of Eternal Redness danced in their heads!
The Great Whitish-Orangish Pumpin-Father would soon be there!
All one-party Republican states would soon be square!
While every You Down in Youville Liked Trumpsmas a lot...
But the Bider-Grunch, who lived just north of Youville, Did NOT!
The Bider-Grunch hated Trumpsmas! The whole Trumpsmas season!
Now, please don't ask why. No one quite knows the reason.
It could be his head wasn't screwed on just right.
It could be, perhaps, that his shoes were too tight.
But I think that the most likely reason of all,
May have been that his heart was two sizes too small.
Whatever the reason, His heart or his shoes,
He stood there on Trumpsmas Eve, hating the Yous,
Staring down from his cave with a sour, Grunchy frown,
At the warm lighted windows below in their town.
For he knew every You would vote Trump,
THIS, biggly, made the Grunch a real grump!.
"And they're preparing ballots!" he snarled with a sneer,
"Tomorrow is Trumpsmas! It's practically here!"
Then he growled, with his Grunch fingers nervously drumming,
"I MUST find some way to stop Trumpsmas from coming!"
For Tomorrow, he knew, all the You girls and boys,
Would wake bright and early. They'd rush for their toys!
And then! Oh, the noise! Oh, the Noise!
Noise! Noise! Noise!
That's one thing he hated! The NOISE!
NOISE! NOISE! NOISE!
Then the Yous, young and old, would sit down to a feast.
And they'd feast! And they'd feast! And they'd FEAST!
FEAST! FEAST! FEAST!
They would feast on You-pudding, and rare You-roast beast.
Which was something the Bider-Grunch couldn't stand in the least!
And THEN They'd do something He liked least of all!
Every You down in Youville, the tall and the small,
Would stand close together, with Trumpsmas bells ringing.
They'd stand hand-in-hand. And the Yous would start singing!
They'd sing! And they'd sing! And they'd SING!
SING! SING! SING!
And the more the Grunch thought of this You TrumpsmasSing,
The more the Grunch thought, "I must stop this whole thing!"
"Why, for four years I've put up with it now!"
"I MUST stop this Trumpsmas from coming! But HOW?"
Then he got an idea! An awful idea!
THE GRUNCH GOT A WONDERFUL, AWFUL IDEA!
"I know just what to do!" The Bider-Grunch laughed in his throat.
And he made a quick MAGA hat and a coat.
And he chuckled, and clucked, "What a great Grunchy trick!"
"With this coat and this hat, I look just like Saint Prick!"
"All I need is a Proud Boy..." The Bider-Grunch looked around.
But, since Proud Boys are scarce, there was none to be found.
Did that stop the old Grunch? No! The Grunch simply said,
"If I can't find a Proud Boy, I'll make one instead!"
So he called his cat, Chairman Meow. Then he took some red thread,
And he tied a big MAGA hat on the top of his head.
Then he loaded many bags and sacks, made ‘em all fit somehow,
On a ramshackle sleigh, and he hitched up Chairman Meow..
Then the Grunch said, "Giddap!" And the sleigh started down,
Toward the homes where the Whos Lay asnooze in their town.
All their windows were dark. Quiet snow filled the air.
All the Whos were all dreaming sweet dreams without care.
When he came to the first little house on the square.
"This is stop number one," the Grunchy fake-Trump hissed,
And he climbed to the roof, empty bags in his fist.
Then he slid down the chimney. To his fat gut, a punch.
But, if Trump could do it, then so could the Grunch.
He got stuck only once, for a moment or two.
Then he stuck his head out of the fireplace flue.
Where the little You ballots all hung in a row.
"These ballots," he grinned, "are the first things to go!"
Then he slithered and slunk, with a smile most unpleasant,
Around the whole room, and he took every vote!
This, surely, would get the You’s goat!
And he stuffed them in bags. Then the Grunch, very nimbly,
Stuffed all the bags, one by one, up the chimney!
Then he slunk to the icebox. He took the Yous' feast!
He took the You-pudding! He took the roast beast!
He cleaned out that icebox as quick as a flash.
Why, that Grunch even took their last can of You-hash!
Then he stuffed all the food up the chimney with glee.
"And NOW!" grinned the Bider-Grunch, "I will stuff up the tree!"
And the Bider-Grunch grabbed the tree, and he started to shove,
When he heard a small sound like the coo of a dove.
He turned around fast, and he saw a small You!
Little Cindy-Lou You, who was not more than two.
The Grunch had been caught by this tiny You daughter,
Who'd got out of bed for a cup of cold water.
She stared at the Grunch and said, "Lord Trump, why,”
"Why are you taking our Trumpsmas tree? WHY?"
But, you know, that old Grunch was so smart and so slick,
He thought up a lie, and he thought it up quick!
"Why, my sweet little tot," the fake Lord Trump lied,
"There's a light on this tree that won't light on one side."
"So I'm taking it home to my workshop, my dear."
"I'll fix it up there. Then I'll bring it back here."
And his fib fooled the child. Then he patted her head,
And he got her a drink and he sent her to bed.
And when CindyLou You went to bed with her cup,
He went to the chimney and stuffed the tree up!
Then the last thing he took Was the log for their fire!
Then he went up the chimney, himself, the old liar.
On their walls he left nothing but hooks and some wire.
And the one speck of food That he left in the house,
Was a crumb that was even too small for a mouse.
Then He did the same thing To the other Yous' houses
Leaving crumbs much too small For the other Yous' mouses!
It was quarter past dawn... All the Yous, still a-bed,
All the Yous, still asnooze When he packed up his sled,
Packed it up with all of their ballots… ALL of their votes!
THIS, the fake Lord Trump grumped, will get ALL of their goats!
Three thousand feet up! Up the side of Mt. Crumpit,
He rode with his load to the tiptop to dump it!
"Pooh-Pooh to the Yous!" he was Grunchishly humming.
"They're finding out now that no Trumpsmas is coming!"
"They're just waking up! I know just what they'll do!"
"Their mouths will hang open a minute or two,
Then the Yous down in Youville will all cry Boo-Hoo!"
"That's a noise," grinned the Bider-Grunch, "That I simply MUST hear!"
So he paused. And the Bider-Grunch put his hand to his ear.
And he did hear a sound rising over the snow.
It started in low. Then it started to grow.
But the sound wasn't sad! Why, this sound sounded merry!
It couldn't be so! But it WAS merry! VERY!
He stared down at Youville! The Grunch popped his eyes!
Then he shook! What he saw was a shocking surprise!
Every You down in Youville, the tall and the small,
Was singing! Without any Trump-votes at all!
He HADN'T stopped Trumpsmas from coming! IT CAME!
Somehow or other, it came just the same!
And the Grunch, with his Grunch-feet ice-cold in the snow,
Stood puzzling and puzzling: "How could it be so?"
The Grunch-light came on! “Yes! Now I know!
The Yous down in Youville, they’re really quite slow!
Their election’s been stolen, but the whole Trumpsmas glow,
Overwhelms EVERYTHING, even democracy!
They’ll lie bigly, and impose mobocracy!”
So the Bider-Grunch whipped out his cell phone,
Called the Lizard People, who send out a drone,
Mind-controlled them all, as is Lizard habit,
Now NO ONE could save them, not even Saint Babbitt!
Gibberish flag.
That's what the Lizard People MADE you think of this Outstanding Poetry!!
TDS-addled spastic asshole flags.
Do you guys think Sqrlsy actually thinks this gibberish is clever, or do you think he's doing it just to clutter up the board and disrupt conversation?
I guess I'm asking if you all think he's a genuine retard or just a shitposting troll.
A bit of both. You have a mute button.
I hate to mute. It seems so authoritarian to silence others even on a personal level.
I prefer the spam button. It hides a shitpost I've already read and it's not like Reason is using it for anything else.
My life is too short to spend time reading chronic shitposters. Ymmv.
MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer the Chthonic Cunt, Twat of Twits, is envious 'cause she has NO sense of humor OR poetry!
Hey Chthonic Cunt! You know how the "mute" button works? Do you need instructions? MUTE me and QUIT yer bitching about my so-called clutter, stupid bitch!
(And I'll still feel free to challenge your lies and your stupid, brainless comments, when you commit them, to keep open-minded readers from falling for YOUR evil lies! It's just the price you pay, Bitch!)
"MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer"
Who's that? You?
Marxist ✔
Old saggy man tits ✔
German Railway leader ?
Sounds like you, Sqrlsy.
One more TDS-addled spastic asshole flag
Yes.
"I guess I'm asking if you all think he's a genuine retard or just a shitposting troll."
Yes.
But further, he's a narcissistic asshole for presuming anyone would waste time ploughing through his bullshit in the hopes of finding something better than kindergarten-age kid's babbling.
Super-Perv-Predator-Sevo the Pedo, Hippo in a Speedo,
AKA “SmegmaLung”, isn’t content to just mute me. Her Royal Highness INSISTS on trying to bully OTHER people into ignoring what I write!
Do You have ANY idea just HOW entitled Your Behavior shows You to be, oh Arrogant Bossy SmegmaLung?
Spastic asshole with TDS gets flagged. Fuck off and die.
I rather think he is doing a public service, because your posts are just plain idiotic.
I honestly think he posts when he's off his meds
I don't think so; more easily explained as the output of an ignorant, narcissistic asshole with TDS.
Nah he's been like that going back to pre trump
I mute him so I don't have to deal with his frothing insanity all over the thread. Can read Dr. Bronner in the ahower anyway.
Either way, it should be euthanized.
What happened to "Why Is It So Hard To Admit When You're Wrong?" ?
So long as all the Yous in Youville hold Trumpsmas closely unto themselves, in their very innermost hearts, and let their hearts grow 3 sizes, You will NEVER have to admit that You are wrong!
(If you're struggling, please appeal to Saint Babbitt. She can help! Despite what the poem says!)
Hold on. Has there been a subtle change from Trumpmas to Trumpsmas. Or is it a typo?
Is this subtle preparation for a political dynasty featuring Junior and Ivanka?
Trumpmas, Trumpsmas, no biggee, either one is fine, just remember to FIGHT FOR MOBOCRACY AND YER LIFE if and when the Lizard People come to try and control your mind when voting!!!
TDS-addled spastic assshole flag
You need to go eat a Trumpbuger and relax.
Vachel Lindsey couldn't have put it better.
First he bitches about bias and then in the exact same comment makes a 300 line shitpost of crazy gibberish and hate about Trump supporters.
Sqrlsygruppenführer is hypocrisy incarcerate.
Anyway, that ejaculation of idiocy gets a spam flag so that I don't have to waste five minutes to scroll past it each time.
Reichsquirreler Squoebbels is gonna do what he does.
WTF. Dude, don't take yourself off the meds. It's dangerous...
"Joshi persuasively challenges the notion that one wing or the other of the conventional right/left political spectrum is likely to be right about every issue."
Is the Death Penalty right or wrong? It depends on what you are trying to get out of it. Mr Bailey thinks he has migrated over time to the "right" answer, but in fact he has merely changed a subjective opinion.
And this is a problem that I believe drives much of the political problems in our country today- too many political decisions are treated as "Fact Based" rather than moral questions. The researcher quoted above, and even Mr Bailey, seem to drop into this binary mode where something being "right" or "wrong" is the same as it being "true" or "false".
"Is the earth warming due to anthropogenic C02?" That is a fact-based question. It is either true or false. "Should we hamstring the production of workers today to prevent warming" is a moral question. It does not depend on scientific facts.
I think a lot of the vitriol in modern politics comes from people believing that certain questions are actually fact based- that you *can* science your way into whether or not the Death Penalty is correct, or vaccinations should be mandated. If you could be scientifically certain about this, then facts (which your bias will happily lead you to) are all you need to impose your will.
But that isn't the case. No matter how many facts and analyses Sullum and Bailey post about Vaccination or Lockdowns, the question of mandates (among others) remains a solely moral one. I find this refreshing, because while there are myriad scientific facts to prove whatever bias you prefer, moral reasoning requires only you and your core beliefs. And once you realize that, it no longer becomes a question of others being "right" or "wrong" its about whether or not they have core beliefs.
Yes, this! In the 1970s they used to talk of "value judgments", which is a good term (it may have been over-used way back then). Not all things are strictly "data-driven". Is chocolate or vanilla better?
TDS-addled spastic asshole gets another flag
Is chocolate or vanilla better?
That depends. Which one does Biden prefer? The answer the other one.
Boring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irmL3zezMSo
I value your judgment! That was a valuable link, in my judgment, which is based on mechanistic materialism!
Spastic asshole addled wit TDS gets one more flag.
You know, before I had to breK down and make a living, I wanted to be competition for Jay Leno's Philosophy Shop. I was going to charge only $,25 instead of $,50 to say: "The World Is An Onion."
Just so, and, although it's a little hard to tell for sure from the article, it looks as if Mr. Bailey and Dr. Joshi are making that mistake. It's also known to philosophers as conflating "is" with "ought", although there are some who suspect that latter may be derivable from the former, though at least they recognize that's no easy thing.
well put
you've correctly delineated science/facts from policy. people like the leftists in control think that "science" dictates the policy, but that should never be the case. science can inform policy. in the case of covid the fearmongers like fauci think that because there is a virus loose (fact) that we must lock down, wear masks and mandate injections (policy). one does not necessarily follow from the other. there are things to consider like morals, risk assessment, preservation of individual liberties, etc.
"people like the leftists in control think that "science" dictates the policy, but that should never be the case."
And unfortunately, the Right tends to fall into this trap as well. When some nut jobs back in the 80s and early 90s started arguing that positive feedback loops would lead rising CO2 to burn up the planet, people spent too long arguing the science rather than the morality of forcing the entire world- and especially the poor- to pay more for their life-giving energy.
Over time, the science of AGW has increasingly BACKED OFF of the doom estimates of the first IPCC reports, moderating the expected effects of warming. But it has also attained the veneer of "scientific certainty" (as if such a thing existed). And we have argued so long over the science that the point at which the "science was settled" the nation in general decided the conversation was over as well.
Too often, the right should be saying, "Even if your science is accurate, it is not moral to do X."
That isn't to say that the science is unimportant. And morally, and pragmatically speaking, this is also a logical and consistent reason why as many decisions as possible should be rendered down to the individual: so that they can look at the facts at hand, and choose the decision that is right for them, confident that the facts aren't being shaped by political operatives engaged in a high-stakes game of national, winner takes all politics.
yea it appears too many people are not immune to this, but the leftists are way, way more guilty
Radiative forcing by CO2 has been plain vanilla textbook science since 1924, and to Ron's credit as a science writer, he read up and changed his mind about global warming less than a century later:
https://vvattsupwiththat.blogspot.com/2021/11/what-did-they-know-and-when-did-they.html
Unfortunately, that was about a decade after CEI paid him to edit Global Warming and Other Eco Myths: How the Environmental Movement Uses False Science to Scare Us to Death
It seems to me that the big difference between the progressives and everyone else, these days, really boils down to a fundamental disagreement over conflicting assumptions about the appropriate place for morality in our society. Progressives believe the government is the correct place for morality. In other words, it isn't just that progressivism has taken on the characteristics of a religious faith. It's also that progressives don't believe in the separation of their church and the state.
Overtly religious Republicans may see religion as an important part of society, but the government is a corrupt influence in society--not the center of their morality. They believe that the center of morality is the church and not the state. The reaction fundamentalist Christians used to provoke by trying to force their church on the corrupt stat, for instance, by trying to force public schools to pray publicly and teach creationism, are now being provoked by progressives who want to inflict their own religious morality on others by way of the state through forced sacrifice for climate change and teaching Critical Race Theory in schools.
I believe that global warming is a serious problem that requires market driven solutions by willing customers who care about the issue and the entrepreneurs who cater to them. Generally speaking, I find that people on the right are reluctant to take global warming seriously because they--quite correctly and rationally--surmise that progressives would use the government to force them to sacrifice their standard of living on the altar of climate change if they could. Because progressives see coercive government as the appropriate center of morality, in other words, those who oppose being subject to progressive policies are rationally reluctant to alter their opinions.
Climate change is just one example. You can see this divide on all the most divisive issues. The real divide between Republicans and progressives on race issues isn't that one side is racist and the other side isn't. The real divide is between progressives who believe that the appropriate place to address the moral failure of racism is in the government, on the one hand, and others who believe that the solution to the moral failure of racism is in the hearts and minds of individual racists (which should be addressed by churches, friends, family, and other parties outside the state). Again, progressives might diminish or destroy the police to address the problem of racism, and people on the right, who depend on the police to protect them from criminals, become reluctant to believe racism is a serious problem, under those conditions--because they fear progressives using the government to inflict their religious morality on them and diminish the police.
Our neocortex evolved to leverage the benefits of religion (among other things), and those benefits had a lot to do with things like group cohesion. While progressives may not believe in God per se, their brains are still hardwired for religious belief, and progressivism gives its believers a sense of being part of something larger than themselves. Shared sacrifice gives them a sense of belonging. Crusades against the evils of racism, climate change--and the sins of non-believers--give their lives a sense of purpose and meaning. Many of them believe in racism as original sin and a paradise without it. The divide between us isn't really between racists and the good or climate change deniers and scientists. It's between progressives who want their progressive church in charge of the government--and the government in charge of morality--on the one hand, and, on the other, those who don't want the progressives' religion inflicted on them by the government.
Progressivism is the Catholic church vs. secular society all over again, and make no mistake--the progressives are the Catholic church in this fight. Watching progressives deny that progressives spending trillions on climate change, expanding entitlements, etc. contribute to inflation is like watching the Catholic church deny heliocentric theory. They can't have people believing these heresies--not if the government is to force us all to sacrifice our standard of living on the altar of climate change. Cancel culture is excommunication. Progressivism is a religion without regard for the separation of church and state or the concerns of unrepentant sinners. You can see this model in the center of every major political controversy.
Wow, 710 words, kicked off by glossing over the Trump worship and personality cult that has spread within fundamentalist Christianity. One troubling aspect of that movement is the abandonment of moral standards when it comes to Trump, apparently as part of a deal where challenging abortion is placed as a goal above all else.
Why never any acknowledgement of both sides?
Because there is a key difference. I agree with Ken's assertion that modern progressives are different, and more dangerous.
It took decades (centuries?) to recognize and reject the infestation of mostly right-wing religious ideology from US government. You can decide when we achieved an essentially secular national code, but we now face a new, equally ideological and doctrinal infection.
IMO, people are entitled to believe any bat shit crazy ideology they can invent. But they are not entitled to a state ideology, aka religion.
We've successfully rejected the infestation of right-wing religious ideology from US government? I don't think this is a fait accompli.
the infestation of right-wing religious ideology
Meanwhile the actual infestation of left-wing religious ideology continues unabated.
White Mike is terrified of people keen on Jesus, but Woke radicals destroying society and Gaia cultists destroying the economy are a-okay.
I'm not sure the religious right has ever had less influence in the Republican party than it does right now.
Shining example of trotting out claims no longer valid and attempting to get others to buy such lies.
Dee’s stuck in whatever time warp Hank abides in.
^
CDS? (“C” for Coolidge)
As the Supreme Court is hearing a case that may overturn Roe v Wade. The religious right is alive and well.
Or maybe they just decided that killing kids isn't as much of a civil liberty as you ghouls pretend.
With the advent of sonograms and earlier and earlier survivable premature births, many atheists are realizing that a trip down the birth canal is an arbitrary and unscientific place to set the advent of an organism's humanity.
Hitchens made a good case for an atheist to hold pro-life sentiments, and Peter Singer made the case that a fetus is definitely a human at conception (Being Peter Singer he still wanted abortion, but also the recognition that you're killing people).
There are even atheist pro-life organizations now.
So maybe we can dispense with the idea that it is just a religious thing to oppose baby-killing, and recognise people like you for the vermin that they are; using anti-religious sentiment as a cover for your monstrous beliefs.
It's not like pro-choice people go around bragging about their daughters having abortions either. It's generally considered either an embarrassing failure to take responsibility for something important--and when it happens to teens, it's generally seen as parents failing to supervise and raise their children properly--regardless of whether that's the way things should be, that's the way people see these things on both sides of the argument. Why would atheist parents or kids brag about making a mistake that requires a procedure like that?
There are those people too. I have no idea why they brag, but I've had the displeasure of meeting several who wore their abortions proudly.
Tribal allegiance to thr left fully cemented, idk.
I suppose there probably are activists out there who do stuff like that, but lowercase "pro-choice" average joes and jills out there aren't bragging about their kids having abortions. It's not considered something to be proud of--by average voters. The activists on both sides nuts.
If you’re not convinced Dee is a simpleton, think about how much thought went into her post above.
So you’re for murdering babies? Do you think that only devout Christians are against murdering babies?
I think in the 1950s the religious "right" had less influence on the Republican party than now. However, you may think that what we call "the religious right" in the USA didn't exist at that time. I'm just referring to it as whatever cluster of traditionalists existed who'd've tied it to their religion in this country. Part of it, though, was that to whatever extent it did exist, they divided their chips between Republicans and Democrats then; in fact they might've leaned Democratic.
The Bible Belt was certainly more Democrat, and the Republicans were basically religious fundamentalists going back to the abolitionist movement. The point is that the religious right is practically a spent force in the Republican party--compared to what they've been in the past. We're not arguing about intelligent design, prayer in public schools, gay marriage, or Terri Schiavo like we used to do. For the most part, they're a spent force.
That they lost a bunch of battles is not a good argument that the religious right are decreasing in their influence within the Republican Party. They are still very much present in the party, and concentrating on overturning abortion rights.
“That they lost a bunch of battles is not a good argument that the religious right are decreasing in their influence”
With this statement, Dee makes the case that losing a bunch of political battles doesn’t indicate losing political influence. We’re to believe that those winning political battles are losing influence?
This is a ludicrous position, but she takes it with all seriousness.
Dear god you are a moron.
Reason logged me out this morning, so I accidentally saw R Mac's reply.
What I said is that the religious right still has influence within the Republican Party -- that the Republican Party has lost battles with those outside the Republican Party over intelligent design, prayer in public schools, gay marriage, or Terry Schiavo is not a sign that they have lost influence within the party.
Evidence that they still have influence within the Republican Party: Trump cow-towed to them by pretending to be a faithful Christian (he clearly is not); they have gotten the issue of abortion to the Supreme Court.
The latter is evidence that they are still have influence in general. There's a good chance they will win on their biggest goal -- overruling Roe v Wade.
Ok, so you rave about Trump taking over the party, and the religious right controlling the party. This isn’t terribly compatible.
Of course, being a prog means simultaneously accepting two contradictory premises.
Right the idea that Trump is some sort of manifestation of religious ideology when he is a clown from new york is hilarious to me.
It is pretty clear that the religious right is ground zero of the fracture in the GOP right now. Mormons generally hate the guy, and among southern evangelicals, I understand that Biden gained more support in 2020.
Mike is the BEST person to talk about people admitting when they are wrong.
https://reason.com/2021/09/09/california-is-set-to-outlaw-unannounced-condom-removal/?comments=true#comment-9091773
That is Mike insisting that he “would never look to Rolling Stone” for news, after spreading their bogus ivermectin story only days earlier. Consider that: He didn’t apologize. He didn’t even try to ignore his mistake. He brazenly tried to dunk on Rolling Stone to make himself look like an arbiter of truth.
That's not moden progressives. Going back to teddy Roosevelt the progressives have believed that the government should use force to solve societies moral failures.
It isn't just that they want government to solve society's moral failures. The religious right wanted to do that, too. It's that they see the government as the appropriate and proper center of ethics. The religious right may see the government as corrupt and try to reform it in line with their religious convictions, but they still see the moral center of society as the church, the bible, the family, etc. That is different from the progressives.
To progressives, the government is the proper seat of ethics. The government is not supposed to reflect the mores of God, the bible, the church, or Christian tradition--in the progressive mind. In the progressive mind, the government is God, the bible, the church, the family, etc. To progressives, government is the moral center of society. See the world through their eyes!
The idea that people should be free to make choices about what is and isn't right or whether they should or shouldn't support something--and the government should reflect that consensus--that's out the window with progressives. If their government says you're morally wrong, you're morally wrong. There is no higher power. There is no moral standard beyond their own control of the government.
" To progressives, government is the moral center of society. See the world through their eyes!"
This is incorrect. Look at the two most progressive presidents of recent history: Johnson and Nixon. The idea that they believed government was the moral center of society is ludicrous. They believed that government was the center of power, and acted accordingly. The moral center of society lies in the hearts of the electorate, government merely panders to it, or not.
Let's try something more modern, yes?
How about Obama and Brandon? Not much respect for other centers of power there.
Those two are corporate shills, and not so progressive as LBJ or RMN. Trump and Bush also fall short.
One side being authoritarian, and the other tolerating a president who fucked a whore, isn’t “both sides.”
Nice dismissiveness.
Which isn't what he's doing, but certainly is what you're doing by labeling it as such.
A billionaire NYC real estate developer fucking a hooker? Yes, I dismiss that as being important.
Remember folks, Dee’s the one true libertarian, but hiring a prostitute is too much for her to stomach.
And I'm sure your double standard is that it is important if the president molested his daughter, see both sides!
Hiring good tax attorneys is just like using the IC to spy on your political enemies.
Biden still got elected, so obviously not a concern.
He didn’t dismiss anything. He just used reality to point out what a fool you are.
Because progressives are evil. They are just pure evil. They have bad intentions and they're just evil. You can't compare the good guys to distilled evil. They're evil people who cannot change. They were born evil and they will die evil. It's like a genetic affliction of evil.
Both sides are not evil. Only one side is evil.
That and Ken has never been wrong about anything ever, because he's not evil. Anyone who says he's wrong is evil.
Remember folks, Mike Laursen and his pet/girlfriend sarcasmic are trolls who have made it their personal mission to harass Ken, as Mike has clearly stated here before.
https://reason.com/2021/09/18/environmentalists-pan-unintended-environmental-consequences-of-flawed-agricultural-laws/#comment-9110728
Bowf sidezzzz baybeeee.
Really though, progshits are vile totalitarian sociopaths who have no problems with any flavor of tyranny if it leads to the ultimate goal of a society fully regulated by qualified individuals who will micromanage goodness and fuzzy unicorns into the world.
Ends over the meanies!
And you, sarcashit, are the gargler at the end of Brandon's southern trumpet exclaiming over corn like gold.
Sarc, just keep drinking the pain away. We can only hope your liver shuts down sooner than later, and our shared suffering will end.
You will not be missed. Even by your imaginary children. Wait, that was mean. Feel free to pretend someone could actually love you.
I mean, they couldn’t, but you are strong with delusions, and it’s almost Christmas. So go nuts.
Your creepy obsession is noted.
Lol. Dude, you actually count this guys words.
Think about that. Wow.
"I believe that global warming is a serious problem that requires market driven solutions by willing customers who care about the issue and the entrepreneurs who cater to them."
How is this belief of yours, faith in the 'invisible hand' of the market, any less religious than the beliefs of those you disagree with?
It seems you use the word 'religious' to mock and deride beliefs you disagree with. A term of ridicule. Religion is beliefs or practices that bring us into contact with the supernatural world. It really has no bearing on how we choose to deal with climate change, by definition, an issue of the natural world.
"How is this belief of yours, faith in the 'invisible hand' of the market, any less religious than the beliefs of those you disagree with?"
Here's an example of how stupidity refuses to give up on stupid.
The "faith" in the invisible hand is the same as my "faith" that the sun will first appear in the East each day; supported by evidence.
But you have to remember when this smug asshole posts anything:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
Yeah, the invisible hand generally works the same way in evolution. A creator God isn't necessary to explain evolution for more or less the same reasons that a central planner isn't necessary to optimize an economy. Doesn't she sometimes claim to be libertarian?!
LOL
Meanwhile, altruism arises from natural selection--just like Smith's invisible hand. We're just dealing with total ignorance, here, on the part of these progressives, which shouldn't be surprising, since these same trolls have repeatedly demonstrated an aversion to facts, logic, etc.
They're just talking about the feelings, and they aren't smart enough to differentiate between how they feel and what they think.
LOL, Ken is responding to Sevo, one of the grand, non-contributing trolls of all time. Ken is claiming commented on this thread are being illogical, while he is calling them “progressives” with no evidence that they are progressives.
Mike is the BEST person to talk about people admitting when they are wrong.
https://reason.com/2021/09/09/california-is-set-to-outlaw-unannounced-condom-removal/?comments=true#comment-9091773
That is Mike insisting that he “would never look to Rolling Stone” for news, after spreading their bogus ivermectin story only days earlier. Consider that: He didn’t apologize. He didn’t even try to ignore his mistake. He brazenly tried to dunk on Rolling Stone to make himself look like an arbiter of truth.
I'm not talking about Rolling Stone. I'm pointing out that faith in the power of the invisible hand to pull the chestnuts out of the global warming fire is at heart based on faith rather than a scientific approach.
mtrueman is Dee?
"I believe that global warming is a serious problem that requires market driven solutions by willing customers who care about the issue and the entrepreneurs who cater to them."
How is this belief of yours, faith in the 'invisible hand' of the market, any less religious than the beliefs of those you disagree with?
It seems you use the word 'religious' to mock and deride beliefs you disagree with. A term of ridicule. Religion is beliefs or practices that bring us into contact with the supernatural world. It really has no bearing on how we choose to deal with climate change, by definition, an issue of the natural world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mnct2zWl4s&list=RDMM&index=9
Back up a second and answer the question, Dee.
I never used the word religious. Do you not understand how this comment section works?
Yeah, a point I have long made: most progressives and liberals abhor creationist biology but love creationist economics.
Yeah, spontaneous order can't possibly happen when humans interact peacefully!
Economics isn't a science. And there's no such thing as creationist economics. And I'm not a progressive. And I'm not a liberal, either. Otherwise thanks for your contribution.
“Otherwise thanks for your contribution.”
I doubt there’s a comment in this thread that contributes as much as yours here!
I prefer my earlier comment:
"I believe that global warming is a serious problem that requires market driven solutions by willing customers who care about the issue and the entrepreneurs who cater to them."
How is this belief of yours, faith in the 'invisible hand' of the market, any less religious than the beliefs of those you disagree with?
It seems you use the word 'religious' to mock and deride beliefs you disagree with. A term of ridicule. Religion is beliefs or practices that bring us into contact with the supernatural world. It really has no bearing on how we choose to deal with climate change, by definition, an issue of the natural world.
I am disappointed by folks that believe climate change is a big issue but aren’t individually carbon neutral.
Who is 'individually carbon neutral?'
Not you.
Well, since you posted it 3 times, here ya go, m…..
The “invisible hand” referenced here makes no demands from “willing customers” for someone else’s idea of the “greater good”. That’s the difference.
Pedantic asshole.
"The “invisible hand” referenced here makes no demands "
Neither does the holy ghost. They're not real.
"Economics isn't a science."
Please take the window to reach the bottom floor more swiftly.
Economics is a less faggy branch of sociology. It's not a science.
"Meanwhile, altruism arises from natural selection--just like Smith's invisible hand."
Nonsense. Natural selection works because genes spontaneously mutate, sometimes with success. There are no genes governing altruism, no genes for invisible hands. Interaction between individuals is subject to social contingencies. If you are arguing for social darwinism, you're a lot more 'progressive' than you think you are.
What a fantastic bunch of gibberish, dee. Tell us more about how you would never trust Rolling Stone for news. Remember that this is a thread about people admitting they were wrong, you know.
I'm not interested in Rolling Stone or its news coverage. Here is the comment:
"I believe that global warming is a serious problem that requires market driven solutions by willing customers who care about the issue and the entrepreneurs who cater to them."
How is this belief of yours, faith in the 'invisible hand' of the market, any less religious than the beliefs of those you disagree with?
It seems you use the word 'religious' to mock and deride beliefs you disagree with. A term of ridicule. Religion is beliefs or practices that bring us into contact with the supernatural world. It really has no bearing on how we choose to deal with climate change, by definition, an issue of the natural world.
Okay, once for the disadvantaged...
Natural selection refers to environmental pressure to SELECT the most advantageous mutations for inheritance. If a bunch of gray moths live in a black forest, eventually they will become blackened moths as the darkest pigmented remain the most camouflaged and least likely to be eaten.
If a group of social creatures are aggressive and uncaring, the group founders, whereas selecting for more compassionate traits leads to inter-group support and an increase in longevity and reproduction.
Genetic mutations are semi-random, but behavioral adaptations are situational and yes, influenced by heritable genes as well as nurturing environment.
"If a group of social creatures are aggressive and uncaring, the group founders, whereas selecting for more compassionate traits leads to inter-group support and an increase in longevity and reproduction."
This is what we in the commenting business call a 'just so' story, an untestable narrative.
The "invisible hand" has a lot more empiric evidence for it than ideas we usually call "religious" do. In fact, at least one major reason we specify them as "religious" is the lack of evidence for them. However, religions do adopt a lot of beliefs, most of which are conventional wisdom even to atheists and followers of other religions.
If, however, we just go by broad correlations such as between financial success and religious beliefs or practices, or between societal imbuement with religion and the general success of such societies, then we may find positive correlations we might attribute to particular religions or to religion in general, correctly or not.
"The "invisible hand" has a lot more empiric evidence for it than ideas we usually call "religious" do. "
It's faith based. The name is a dead give away. Climate science is based on observation and measurement, just like any other science.
"The name is a dead give away. Climate science is based on observation and measurement, just like any other science."
Most of climate science- specifically the stuff predicting doom- is based on modeling, not observation or measurement.
And the hilarious thing is if you believe Economics isn't a science (as you said in another post) then you have basically disavowed Climate Science. Since half of the climate models is translating economic projections into carbon balance changes.
But, you aren't here to promote science. Just to pose, as the other social signalers have long done. It was a passable effort, but you ought to probably switch to your other socks for a bit after this terrible showing.
"not observation or measurement"
The current atmosphere is both observed and measured. Same with the past, though through proxies. The future atmosphere is modeled.
"But, you aren't here to promote science."
Correct. I'm here to take exception to the widely held notion that climate science is a religion. That is why I'm here:
"I believe that global warming is a serious problem that requires market driven solutions by willing customers who care about the issue and the entrepreneurs who cater to them."
How is this belief of yours, faith in the 'invisible hand' of the market, any less religious than the beliefs of those you disagree with?
It seems you use the word 'religious' to mock and deride beliefs you disagree with. A term of ridicule. Religion is beliefs or practices that bring us into contact with the supernatural world. It really has no bearing on how we choose to deal with climate change, by definition, an issue of the natural world.
+10000000 to kens post.
I agree with Ken's analysis.
Left wing socialism is more totalitarian than religion.
As a libertarian atheist for the past 50 years who strongly supports women's right to abortion, I've always disdained Conservative Christians Republicans who demonized and campaigned to ban ban abortion, porn, gay and interracial marriage, and impose creationism in public school curricula and "God Bless America" and "In God We Trust" as government mottos.
But the left wing socialists (aka progressives) are much worse than theocratic Christian crusaders on many other issues, as they insist upon banning coal, oil, natural gas, guns and capitalism, promoting race wars, imposing totalitarian lockdowns, vaccine and mask mandates, encouraging millions to illegally come to America, and destroying our economy with excessive and wasteful federal spending, skyrocketing debt and inflation.
It has never been more clear which side sucks way, way more.
Sixteen hundred words, trying to find a sophisticated way to say, "Both sides."
Yup, tl;dr. Did Bailey say vaccines are the best protection against COVID while trying to explain why it is hard to admit when you are wrong?
It took him years to see the light on capital punishment. He'll probably die of myocarditis before he admits he was wrong about "vaccines".
Yup. Both sides is one of the major themes of Reason.
The opposite of "both sides" is "My Tribe's lies leading to violence against your tribe GOOD: Your tribe's lies leading to violence against My Tribe BAD!"
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/26/media/trump-interviews-reliable-sources/index.html Trump's new interviews and appearances show that a storm is brewing
Trump … said "they're destroying our country. Our country will not survive this. Our country will not survive."
BURN the witches AND the vote-stealing Demon-Craps!
Trump was in the middle of a fact-free rant about "vicious" Democrats cheating on elections when he said "they're destroying our country. Our country will not survive this. Our country will not survive."
https://www.newsweek.com/pro-trump-congressional-candidate-says-audit-all-50-states-execute-all-involved-1632838
Pro-Trump Congressional Candidate Says 'Audit All 50 states' and 'Execute All Involved'
I say again... BURN the witches AND the vote-stealing Demon-Craps! Bring ON the 1-party "R" state!
TDS-addled spastic asshole flag! Fuck off and die.
First he bitches about tribalism and then in the exact same comment posts two unhinged and dishonest links of tribalistic invective against the hated "other".
Sqrlsygruppenführer is hypocrisy incarcerate.
MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer the Chthonic Cunt isn’t content to just mute me. Her Royal Highness INSISTS on trying to bully OTHER people into ignoring what I write!
Do You have ANY idea just HOW entitled Your Behavior shows You to be, oh Arrogant Bossy Bitch?
PS, I posted TWO links to SHOW what I wrote about!
Where are YOUR links, witch-burner?
Your posts are my proof of your hypocrisy.
Witch-burner & Jesus-killer has NO links! WHAT a surprise!
Ron Bailey made NO mention of "do-gooder derogation", which explains a LOT of hateful, irrational, and non-data-driven, MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer-style behavior.
For those with an open mind, read about "do-gooder derogation" HERE! http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/
Don't forget this valuable link:
http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Melvin_Tastes_Dem_Dink/
Looks like sqrlsy deleted it. Such a shit eating scoundrel.
Three more flags for the TDS-addled spastic asshole.
“….hypocrisy incarcerate.”
Ok, that’s twice now. Auto correct or intentional double meaning?
True libertarians are Republicans. Anyone who says otherwise is evil.
Well, you do say otherwise and have posted a lot of evil, dishonest, antilibertarian trolling here... so maybe.
MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer the Chthonic Cunt, Twat of Twits, and many other Rethugglicans and like-minded authoritarians want to annex libertarians and assimilate them to be good Rethugglicans, just like Russia wants to annex Ukraine. Who are we to sit in judgment of their preferences, in either case?
TDS-addled spastic asshole gets another flag. Fuck off and die.
For those confused, MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer the Chthonic Cunt, Twat of Twits is Reichsführer Squoebbels pet name for himself.
MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer the Chthonic Cunt, Twat of Twits has a "pet name" for Herself... It is "Your Highness, The Perfect One"!
A simple list of everything Bailey's been wrong about the past 2 years would've been better, and about the same length.
Alas, Bailey - like all progressives - can't admit he's wrong.
“Thus, while there could be a 'true cluster' of political beliefs, the present consideration strongly suggests that neither the liberal nor the conservative belief-cluster is it."
Well, yeah. Duh.
Wow, 710 words, kicked off by glossing over the Trump worship and personality cult that has spread within fundamentalist Christianity. One troubling aspect of that movement is the abandonment of moral standards when it comes to Trump, apparently as part of a deal where challenging abortion is placed as a goal above all else.
Why never any acknowledgement of both sides?
(This was a response to Ken’s post.)
You’re a sick fuck.
Yeah, we know mike. Creepy twice.
This is a great demonstration of the fact that Mike has never thought through his positions.
"kicked off by glossing over the Trump worship and personality cult that has spread within fundamentalist Christianity. One troubling aspect of that movement is the abandonment of moral standards when it comes to Trump"
Evangelicals on Trump in a nutshell: “Donald Trump is going to embarrass me every day of the year, but unlike the other side, he doesn’t hate me and my faith, and actively seek to do me harm.”
In short, Christians are just voting for whichever political party is less likely to make their faith illegal one day.
apparently as part of a deal where challenging abortion is placed as a goal above all else
If you actually believe that a unborn child is a person, then abortion is a holocaust that blows away all others in it's scale and brutality. If you think they're human and don't place the issue above all else then you'd be a psychotic monster.
Why never any acknowledgement of both sides?
Because right now the Republicans are acting like Boss Hogg and the Davoscrats like Lovecraftian horrors, and to pretend that they pose an equivalent threat is facile nonsense.
Evangelicals on Trump in a nutshell: “Donald Trump is going to embarrass me every day of the year, but unlike the other side, he doesn’t hate me and my faith, and actively seek to do me harm.”
Trump only embarrasses evangelicals? I think you mean fools them into believing he cares anything more about them than he does anyone else not named Donald J. Trump. If someone is useful to him, he'll blow smoke up their ass to convince them that he cares about them, and he'll always claim to have done more for them than anyone else in history, regardless of what he really thinks of them. As soon as they don't show him unflinching loyalty, however, it will be "Fuck him", though, just like Netanyahu for having congratulated Biden.
And who "hates" evangelicals for their "faith"? Perhaps there are a fair number of people that dislike those among evangelicals that want to deny LGBT people equal rights and insist on imposing their beliefs on everyone else, but that doesn't match your way of putting it. (Especially since not all evangelicals have those kind of socially conservative views.)
In short, Christians are just voting for whichever political party is less likely to make their faith illegal one day.
This is just the usual fearmongering talking. No one is trying to make Christianity "illegal". Especially not in a country that is 70% Christian. Take a look at that video of Dan Crenshaw that's been circulating lately. Whether he meant to or not, he diagnoses the conservative mindset very well. He talked about the "performance artists" in Congress that know the conservative "heart" to be based on fear that what they have will be taken away. That is the basis of the "War on Christmas", "War on Christianity", "Critical Race Theory", and everything else in the culture wars. Everything good that you value will be taken from you if you don't vote for us.
They have no positive vision of the future, no plans or policies to make our lives better. They only have opposition to the caricature that is what they say the other side wants. Trump was just the most blatant at using that kind of demagoguery to come along.
If you actually believe that a unborn child is a person, then abortion is a holocaust that blows away all others in it's scale and brutality. If you think they're human and don't place the issue above all else then you'd be a psychotic monster.
Really? "all others"? We fought a devastating war to stop the Nazis, and the American public, at least, didn't even know the extent of the Final Solution. What have anti-abortion evangelicals done to stop "a holocaust that blows away all others in it's [sic] scale and brutality"? Elected Trump and other Republicans that would put religious conservatives on the Supreme Court to overturn Roe? Which wouldn't even outlaw abortion, just allow the states where the anti-abortion voting block is strong enough to do that. Such willingness to do whatever it takes to stop a great evil! They must really believe that it is horrible!
Because right now the Republicans are acting like Boss Hogg and the Davoscrats like Lovecraftian horrors, and to pretend that they pose an equivalent threat is facile nonsense.
Now that comparison to Boss Hogg is really funny. A baffoonish, greedy politician willing to do all kinds of corrupt, illegal things to get his way, including constantly trying to get the "good ole' boys" that would stand against him and expose his corruption thrown in jail. True, he wasn't 'evil' and wouldn't try and actually harm people with his schemes, but he was always the villain of the series. Perhaps that is what you mean? That as bad as Republicans can be, they won't cross a line into evil, but the Democrats would? Could you exemplify what Bailey was trying to say any better?
Maybe brutal, but not remarkable. With billions of people in the world, the overwhelming majority of them strangers, what do most of us have to lose by the turnover? It's happening all the time, and why shouldn't people want to influence the composition of the remainder?
And it would be effective. It was said by the hippies that we'd get legal pot when enough of preceding generations died off, and they were right. I'm pretty sure that was the key to moving the polls enough to move the issue politically as it has been, because nothing has changed regarding the relevant facts over that time.
And it would be effective.
Trying to reason with most progressives is certainly frustrating. The first thing you have to do is convince them that it matters whether their facts are true or false. The second thing you have to do is convince that it matters whether they're rational or irrational. Then you have to convince that it matters whether they're wrong or right. And there's no guarantee they'll accept any of those things--before you start trying to persuade them of anything. Why should we try to persuade people who don't care whether they're wrong or right?
Much better to focus on moderate Democrats, average Republicans, and swing voters.
Kyrsten Sinema is being subjected to progressives chasing her into the restroom and screaming at her while she's on the toilet. She also has 20 students in Arizona who are on a hunger strike because she won't support the latest iteration of H.R. 1. Should somebody try to reason with these activists? They don't care whether they're right or wrong, and they don't care why. They're religious fanatics. You don't reason with progressive fanatics. You address the people who see them and expose them as fanatics.
I ask progressives IRL all the time questions like, "How much will will need to sacrifice in GDP per capita before our sacrifices have any impact on average temperatures?" Their standard response is that it doesn't matter--that we should be making those sacrifices anyway. What's the rational response to someone who says they want to sacrifice our standard of living--regardless of whether it's effective in combatting climate change? The most effective way to combat that kind of fanaticism is probably humiliation and ridicule.
About time you admitted to wanting to see your political enemies die.
Where does he say that, you dishonest piece of shit.
"Trying to reason with most progressives is certainly frustrating."
Really? I've found that the most effective way to get a liberal, progressive, or conservative to start changing their mind about issues is to simply put them in a situation where they are hanging out with a different crowd: by going to college, moving to another state, etc. Simply getting them away from their echo chamber.
to start changing their mind about issues is to simply put them in a situation where they are hanging out with a different crowd
I think your presence here is proof against that. I've yet to see you assume a libertarian position that conflicts with the Democratic Party narrative.
Here's Mike arguing for "well-crafted regulation".
https://reason.com/2020/12/18/the-bipartisan-push-to-gut-section-230-will-suppress-online-communication/#comment-8647905
"I ask progressives IRL all the time..."
Do you ever have a two-way conversation with someone where you open yourself to the possibility that the other person might change your mind? If you are not doing that, it isn't possible to have a quality, true conversation.
It's very hard to sell that to a self-awarely libertarian crowd, but it's true, and I've brought it up several times. "What if we're wrong?" Un-possible! ("Wrong" not in the factual but opinion sense, of course. As in "politically incorrect".)
I've been pounding the table here for fallibilism for years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallibilism
We can never be absolutely certain that we're right about anything--it's the fundamental problem of science, even, but the things that are most likely to be true are the things that have survived the most and best scrutiny. When this place is working properly, it makes us smarter than we would be otherwise. I want to be shown where I'm wrong--which is why my posts are longer than a lot of people's. If I don't tell you why I think I'm right, how can you show me where my thinking is wrong?
I don't think there's anyone here who agrees with me on everything, and there are plenty in this thread who disagree with me completely on specific issues--from free trade and Section 230 to foreign policy and immigration. There are plenty of intelligent people here who can be persuaded with facts and logic, and I'm one of them. So, please, somebody tell us all where where we're wrong--the intelligent and knowledgeable people here want to be persuaded with facts and logic.
Ultimately, I think libertarianism has an advantage, however, in that since we want everyone to be free to make choices for themselves, being wrong is okay. As I wrote elsewhere, being wrong becomes a big problem with progressives because they want to inflict their will on the rest of us--who do not share their feelings. When the only person who suffers if I'm wrong is me, who cares? If I'm forced to suffer the stupid mistakes of progressives because they control the government, that is completely unacceptable.
You want to be shown where you’re wrong. OK, let’s start with the very first sentence of your first comment in this thread.
“Trying to reason with most progressives is certainly frustrating.”
What is your basis for generalizing about “most” progressives. You certainly can’t have personal experience with debating with anywhere near a quantity of progressives that would be “most”. You are making an illogical, overreaching generalization about a huge group of people based on interacting with only a few of them.
How about your voting record? Not inspiring trust when all your heroes are fascists.
He mutes anyone who shows him to be wrong. He's just like the people he hates.
I think we also have the advantage that few of us "inherited" our libertarianism, i.e. by being surrounded by libertarians early in life. I think in the USA we do have a little head start in that the culture is generally among the most libertarian in the world. But we still had to be convinced, one by one, so we already have the experience of being persuaded to change our ideas.
+1
#+Two
"Do you ever have a two-way conversation with someone where you open yourself to the possibility that the other person might change your mind? If you are not doing that, it isn't possible to have a quality, true conversation."
This is rich coming from Mike. Every single day he is here dissembling, pretending to be reasonable. He acts like he WANTS to have a conversation, but then you will find him here a week later arguing the exact same points he argued before. He will back off his facts and logical conclusions in your discussion with him, but then a week later he'll be making the exact same conclusion he couldn't logically back up the week before.
That is because Mike is here to sow chaos in the comments threads. He parachutes in and leaves "do you have cites for this" all over the threads, and makes snarky little half reasonable concern troll comments in an attempt to derail conversations. It is his MO because he actually isn't interested in conversation whatsoever.
"...He will back off his facts and logical conclusions in your discussion with him, but then a week later he'll be making the exact same conclusion he couldn't logically back up the week before.
That is because Mike is here to sow chaos in the comments threads..."
Like turd, he deserves what you're doing to him and deserves it every time he posts.
He lies, lies constantly and every post by him should be tagged as bullshit.
I ask progressives IRL all the time questions like, "How much will will need to sacrifice in GDP per capita before our sacrifices have any impact on average temperatures?" Their standard response is that it doesn't matter--that we should be making those sacrifices anyway. What's the rational response to someone who says they want to sacrifice our standard of living--regardless of whether it's effective in combatting climate change? The most effective way to combat that kind of fanaticism is probably humiliation and ridicule.
How much GDP are you willing to sacrifice to have any impact on the damage to human health caused by air pollution? Should we do away with all pollution regulations in the name of increasing GDP?
Even framing the question that way reveals what you think of the issue as much as what you say they answer reveals about their thinking. GDP is a really broad measure of economic growth. By itself it does not reveal that much about how economic policy affects the lives of people. We might say that 3% annual GDP growth is "better" than 2%, as a general statement. But you need a lot more detail than that to say whether working class people would benefit significantly from that extra 1%, for instance, since different sectors of an economy can be growing at different rates for different reasons. If 1% less GDP growth was the cost of making a significant impact on environmental health, would that be worth it? How do you want people to answer your question? How would you answer it?
Your question is largely rhetorical, since you know that it isn't going to be possible to answer it within the space of a single, relatively short conversation. Analyzing the tradeoffs of environmental regulation quantitatively takes the efforts of large numbers of experts in many fields of science, economics, and public policy. And it will always have uncertainties, as well. I get the impression that you have already assumed that it won't be worth it simply by framing the issue with that question.
Maybe humiliation and ridicule is the correct response to people that just want to "Drill, baby, drill!" and damn the consequences.
It's true of pot legalization, and it's true of paradigm shifts in scientific theories. Major thought change usually requires the older generation to die off.
It's also true when one nation slaughters the people of another, and then politically dominate the remaining minority from then on. You don't have the votes (or influence with the sovereign) if you're dead.
We are talking about different things. I am referring to natural death from old age only. There is a well-known adage that scientific paradigms only change when the older, established generation of scientists in a particular discipline die off (naturally).
But wouldn't the same have happened if they'd died of some other cause?
Yes, but then my comment would take on a sinister element that wasn't there when I made it.
Lying sack of shit is lying again about shit they just posted. Imagine that.
Mike Laursen
December.11.2021 at 4:23 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
We are talking about different things.
Dee’s MO in a nutshell.
"Why Is It So Hard To Admit When You're Wrong?"
Perhaps because there is an objective truth, and those who find the facts do not fit their fantasies, like Tony and turd and our newest lefty ignoramus, dbruce, for example, they simply ignore the facts and continue with the fantasies.
If they were to admit they are wrong, as they are, they would have to admit most of their lives have been spent spouting bullshit.
Don't you even post-modern?
I know you're being funny, but just for the record, there's a big difference between postmodernism and the willful stupidity of progressives, who don't care about facts, logic, or whether they're wrong or right. A postmodern argument might hold that everything is subject to perspective, and that the whole objective truth can't be known, but they can achieve that position by reasonable and factual processes. The willful stupidity of progressives, on the other hand, is more about believing in something in spite of all the facts and logic that contradict it.
A postmodernist might tell us there's no way to know for sure what's at the bottom of that cliff since it's cloudy and we can't see the bottom. Progressives, on the other hand, are insisting that we all jump off the cliff no matter whether the facts and the logic say that's an extremely stupid thing to do. In fact, the more we resist jumping off the cliff, they more progressives want the government to force us to jump--with facts and logic all being willfully ignored. Listening to progressives talk about inflation over the last week has been telling.
Oooh, them darn progressives!!!
He's right about you, you know.
Trump: Never put personal profit over national security
Please remember this: I will never put personal profit before national security. Nobody should.
[Charlotte, NC, 8/18/16] It is a culmination of a 6 year crime spree breaking every law possible in the Constitution.....High Crimes, Misdemeanors, Treason, Emoluments ($1.7 Billion) foreign and domestic, Hiring illegals, Bribery, Election payoff, Obstructing Justice.
Hush money, Abuse of power, Obstruction of Congress, Tax Fraud, Misappropriating government funds, Lying to the American People, Aiding and abetting in the murder of thousands and Rendering himself obnoxious.
“Trump: Never put personal profit over national security”
Except that extremely well documented time he threatened to withhold aid to Ukraine unless they helped him embarrass the leading opponent in his Presidential re-election race.
So well documented he wasn't convicted.
Yes you are right. My post was about what Trump said...Never put personal profit over national security on 8/18/2016. He literally puts personal profit over EVERYTHING.
Oh, and that other time he held a rally just down the street from where Congress was certifying the electoral vote, whipped the crowd up and told them to march on the Capitol building.
Mike is the BEST person to talk about people admitting when they are wrong.
https://reason.com/2021/09/09/california-is-set-to-outlaw-unannounced-condom-removal/?comments=true#comment-9091773
That is Mike insisting that he “would never look to Rolling Stone” for news, after spreading their bogus ivermectin story only days earlier. Consider that: He didn’t apologize. He didn’t even try to ignore his mistake. He brazenly tried to dunk on Rolling Stone to make himself look like an arbiter of truth.
So well documented he wasn't convicted.
Dee’s the most libertarian commentator here. Here, she explains how exercising 1A is a crime if she doesn’t like you, or agree with the time and place of doing so. That’s why she’s the most libertarian commentator here.
"Go home in peace" is the deadliest rallying cry of racism to ever befoul our air.
They would have to admit they'd previously been ignorant and/or stupid. People don't want to acknowledge that to themselves. It's a reason people will throw good money after bad.
I feel the same as Aleister Crowley when he listed the rights of man, and then concluded, "Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights." Or see the hilarious movie How to Murder Your Wife. I'm not saying you should murder lightly or if you can't get away with it, but that if that's the only effective and safe way, then you should. Why allow life to be worse if it could be better, just because someone else either wants to make it worse or can't be convinced that what they want is making it worse?
By the way, if any of you watch Futurama cartoons, where dis you think the Zap Brannigan character got his name and characteristics? And why his sidekick is named Keef?
Ha! Went down the rabbit hole on your prior comment and ended up on the imdb page for the movie - read the plot description and immediately made the connection. Then I came back to see your follow-up remark.
Futurama was a series that was great for its entire run.
But do see the movie. That was back when if you cast great comic actors together, you usually got a funny movie. Somehow that formula seems not to work as well any more.
Now I think Bash Brannigan was to reflect Slam Bradley, a character from Detective Comics #1 starting in 1937. I'd've thought Zap Brannigan was based on him directly, except "Brannigan"...nah. Cartoonists and comic strip writers seem to be especially good about cryptic acknowledgments like that.
(fourth attempt--I removed the link to the Perception Gap site so you will have to find that yourself)
"You're also likely to be wrong about the characteristics of members of the other party, about what they actually believe, and even about their views of you. But you are trapped in a partisan prison by the psychological effects of confirmation bias."
To see how wrong people, including you, are about others, go the the Perception Gap web site and take the quiz.
You can also see their insightful poll data and analysis, and how errors increase with political partisanship (both sides), media consumption (both sides), and education (left-leaning).
My Democrat Perception Gap is 9% (Average for Republicans-27%, for Independents-20%)
My Republican Perception Gap is 10% (Average for Democrats-19%, for Independents- 13%)
Interesting, thanks for that!
IMO, a big share of blame has to go to democracy itself, especially the modern(?) election strategy we can call "motivate the base".
I could be wrong, but I remember a previous era where candidates and parties aimed their messaging, and even actual policies, at the middle. Winning elections meant appealing to the broadest possible spectrum of voters.
Then, probably driven by social science consultants and pollsters, campaign managers determined that they could get more votes by increasing the turnout of the ideological core, and refocused messaging and policy. Of course, this turned off the middle--and I wonder if that was intentional.
We are now approaching a hyper-polarized government of the 20%, with wack-jobs from the 10% on each end of the spectrum that even their own party allies really do not like.
Can we fix this? Would requiring everyone to vote help? How about requiring not a majority of votes cast but a majority of registered voters? Maybe if every ballot had "None of the Above"?
"Maybe if every ballot had 'None of the Above'?"
It would rock the whole way American politics is done.
As I've said before, I'd also like to see Tax Day and Election Day be the same day.
The libertarian problem with the death penalty is that it requires competent and honest initial law enforcement response, detectives and prosecutors. We don’t currently have those as documented by many articles right here at Reason.
In 1988, filmmaker Errol Morris released The Thin Blue Line that documents a Texas man that was put to death over a crime that he did not commit. I like Morris’ films and this one is worth a watch.
This is where I’m at with the death penalty. If you wrongfully convict someone based on corruption and you put them to death, later exonerating evidence can’t bring them back. If that same person is put in prison, they can be released.
Still sucks, but at least they’re alive.
That movie changed my position on this issue. As had his Fog of War offering for war. Art compels humans to explore. And Morris is an artist.
I'll check them out.
Like use of the nukes to end WWII, this subject had me on both sides at one time or another.
By now, I agree that even letting egregious cases like Manson rot in jail is preferrable to allowing the state to kill an innocent person.
I would have dropped the bombs. We had firebombed the crap out of their cities and still would have needed boots to go house by house and foxhole by foxhole on the home islands. As horrific as they were, the nuclear bombs saved many Japanese lives.
The movie Fog of War touches on this. It is the film version of former Sec Def McNamara’s autobiography. Much of the film is interviews with him.
My interpretation is that McNamara, a genius, used this medium to make an argument about being accepted into heaven. And he almost pulled it off.
While he talks about WW2 where he served under Cutis Lemay, firebombing Japan and the nuclear bombs, much of the film is about Vietnam.
"...As horrific as they were, the nuclear bombs saved many Japanese lives..."
Frank's "Downfall" is the definitive literature on this. Got several 'but, but, but,' books on the shelves; all assume facts not in evidence.
Frank puts the numbers down and backs them.
Japanese lives, probably by the millions, Allied military and POW lives by likely more than a million, east Asian civilians on the Pacific littoral likely in the same range.
Each year, I ask the opponents which alternative would have been more humanitarian. Once, the asshole Tony proposed (I believe without irony) that the Allies should have surrendered to the Japanese, and I'm certain he truly is stupid enough to assume that would have resulted in fewer deaths.
Have not seen the film.
Had once played “what if” and thought if the US had stopped after say Midway. The public demanded an unconditional surrender. And I think the brass understood that Europe happened due to a failure for Germans to understand they actually got beat in the Great War and not the “stab in the back” theory they ran with in the interwar period. Because no foreign troops entered Germany via fighting (they did occupy the Rhineland as part of the Treaty pf Versailles).
That movie talks about how the US firebombed 67 cities in Japan. And they refused to surrender.
"...That movie talks about how the US firebombed 67 cities in Japan. And they refused to surrender."
Similarly, many anti-nukes ask why we didn't do a "demonstration"; surely the Japanese would surrender after seeing the power of the thing!
Well, we did a "demonstration" over Hiroshima. And they did not surrender.
Got some time...
"And I think the brass understood that Europe happened due to a failure for Germans to understand they actually got beat in the Great War and not the “stab in the back” theory they ran with in the interwar period. Because no foreign troops entered Germany via fighting (they did occupy the Rhineland as part of the Treaty pf Versailles)."
See this less as an "understanding" by the German population than as a propaganda success by the Nazis, but it was repeated by many of the Nazi POWs during interrogations.
Recommended before; still do: "Wages of Destruction" (Adam Tooze). As he makes abundantly clear, Germany's economy was barely above '3rd-world' at the time, and it took Hitler's converting potatoes to fuel to support the effort as long as he did, sacrificing his population's stored body-fat to fuel the Panthers.
The Japanese were even less rational, and regardless of all my research, nothing suggests that any in the Japanese power structure believed they could win a war which lasted longer than 6 months, and no one there ever made a convincing case regarding that scenario.
They more-or-less wandered into a murderous war and as a result, every Aug 6th should feature parades of grateful Japanese in Hiroshima thanking the US for saving all those lives.
Oh, and:
I was given a manuscript written by a very senior officer in a major Japanese financial institution; it was he who gave it to me.
We both had been participants in discussions regarding Japanese conduct leading up to and during WWII.
In the M/S, he makes the claim that the Bataan Death March resulted from a shortage of trucks to transport the prisoners.
Yes, he does. On inquiry, he made it clear that the Japanese (government) education system taught that version of events.
Wish I'd have asked regarding Nanking...
'it was he who WROTE IT'
Sorry...
Here again, I would think that small percentage of voters to have a bizarre scheme of morals. Like it's more important to play a fair game than for the world to be a better place outside the game. Maybe they just think politics is a game that has no consequences on the real world, but then you'd have to wonder why they'd care that much about such a slow and boring game when they could instead follow or play more fun ones. Then again, this attitude is the same one that's turned law into a game played by lawyers.
"Like it's more important to play a fair game than for the world to be a better place outside the game."
It's a very advanced moral realization, but one that requires looking at the big picture and thinking long-term. And it's one that used to be taught along with how to hit a baseball.
People have a pretty strong tendency to form opinions without bothering to become informed.
Ideological socialization.
Another problem is giving young people the impression that their teachers are ultimate authorities of knowledge.
Thats why i like the comments section here [generally...].
I come to most subjects here with my own views and prejudices but the unsparing and sometimes savage nature of the back and forth usually never fails to bring out every uncomfortable counter-example and\or flaw that could be formulated to any given position.
When i go to comments on other sites I am always confronted with reflexive unthinking partisan shots and talking points that have no depth and quickly make me go away in disgust. They end up offering nothing to the article being discussed which, after spending time here, is what i rely on... because as we all know - the initial article [on any website] never treats the subject to a fair hearing of both sides.
I guess if they ever did they would be 3x longer and the comments section would then be relegated to hashing out things already discusses in the article itself... therefore not as fun to engage.
Wait a minute — those are all opinions. How can an opinion be right?
Politics. If the person with the opinion has the correct politics, then the opinion is right. If not then it's wrong. It's really that simple. Actions, opinions, policies, and everything else is to be judged by politics and politics alone. Good guys can do no wrong, and the bad guys are pure evil.
and the bad guys are pure evil.
Or shitposting trolls like you.
The article notes that this political divide is fueled both people at the extreme ends of the political spectrum. We do need to get back to more moderate politics with people working together on issues. This starts with talk. Problem is if you are only taking to your own side you cannot work to effect change. I believe there are large number of people out there who would work together given a chance. We have politicians and media that are working hard to keep that chance from happening.
You know who else never admitted he was wrong?
White Mike the fire extinguisher warrior
Filled with deadly HO2!
Sarc pump and dumped her so she is lonely and bored.
Impossible. sarc swore he'd be a gentleman.
Ken.
You're peeking again, aren't you.
Also, John, but he doesn't hang out here anymore.
John was never wrong, so we'll never know.
Misek.
Der JesseBahnFurher, Sevo, R Mac, MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer, and MANY more!
Spastic, TDS-addled asshole gets one more flag.
Reichsführer Squobbels, Sqrlsygruppenführer, and that lunatic who misspells "führer" and obsesses about them being in charge of railways.
You know, the racist nutbag who wrote this:
"SQRLSY One
September.30.2020 at 12:53 pm
Yes! This FURTHER proves that Hitler was NOT a racist!
Since even Hitler wasn’t a racist, we can pretty firmly conclude that racism isn’t a “thing” at all!
Hey MammaryBahnFuhrer… How is Your new org coming along? Are You gaining many new converts and perverts to “Expert Christian Theologians for Identity Theft?” And where do we sign up for your newsletter?
In https://reason.com/2021/03/21/why-we-still-shouldnt-censor-misinformation/#comment-8818090 Mamma fesses to her being an identity-thief and sock!
chemjeff radical individualist
March.21.2021 at 4:27 pm
Uh oh, I think you left your sock on.
Reply
1. SQRLSY 0ne
March.21.2021 at 5:06 pm
Yeah, sigh.
Hey MammaryBahnFuhrer, Expert Christian Theologian! Did Jesus appear to You in a vision, and tell You that ID theft is a GREAT, wonderful thing? Or ARE You Jesus, returned to us, maybe?
Spastic, narcissistic asshole, afflicted with TDS gets yet another flag.
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of shit.
Who's MammaryBahnFuhrer, and what do tits have to do with German railways?
Reichsführer Squobbels as usual talks gibberish even in German.
https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1469474907700477958?t=dyYFgd_d0coF-EVb2-yuPA&s=19
The United States pays its debts when they are due. That’s why today, I signed a bill to fast-track the process to raise our debt limit.
https://twitter.com/CureHipHop/status/1469405944195031040?t=PPzo6Va7kEngOQ7CZnCVyQ&s=19
You tell these idiots that CNN isn’t a reliable source and they all say the same thing “you must watch Fox News”
https://twitter.com/TimRunsHisMouth/status/1469545083498340360?t=CXz6gH_yCYfLmbpNNXLHqA&s=19
Remember when vaccine passports, isolation camps and multiple booster shots were just "conspiracy theories"?
How much has to come true before people wake up?
To satanists and psychopaths there is no right and wrong.
The weak minded find it is in their interest to believe that right and wrong can’t be discerned.
Those who are left need to first learn how truth is discerned and then do it when it counts. That is when it demonstrates that you or those who have power over you are wrong.
The cancel culture exists to ensure that those who want to do right by truth, never do.
Fuck off, nazi.
You can neither refute what you deny nor prove what you claim.
If you think you’ve done either regarding anything I’ve said, prove it, cite your link.
You never have.
You have had your face wiped in your bullshit more often than a care to count and like the lefty stupids here, you return to repeat the same damn lies.
Fuck off and die, you pathetic excuse for humanity
You can’t cite a link to a single occasion to support your delusion though.
You have had your face wiped in your bullshit more often than a care to count and like the lefty stupids here, you return to repeat the same damn lies.
Fuck off and die, nazi shit.
SPRINGTIME FOR MISEK
Mel Brooks could handle that...
You’re the joke who is saying that your inability to refute anything I say is rubbing my face in anything.
If you had ever refuted anything I’ve said you could cite a link to it. You never have.
Instead, you’re the joke sitting there, face all rubbed in, well it ain’t roses.
You have had your face wiped in your bullshit more often than a care to count and like the lefty stupids here, you return to repeat the same damn lies.
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of nazi shit.
Everyone has seen that you’re a lying waste of skin.
I take great pleasure in that.
Fucker can't quit lying: Everyone has seen your face wiped in your bullshit more often than Icare to count and like the lefty stupids here, you return to repeat the same damn lies.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/1469727198345003009?t=KKunWhYCp9G3_0xmdyBKCQ&s=19
Hey @DavidAFrench, were you and your colleagues at The Atlantic given advance notice of the arrest of this high level CNN staffer before publishing this article called child sex trafficking fake, or was it merely a coincidence?
[Link]
The only reason the death penalty is completely illogical these days is because it is literally more expensive and more of a waste of government resources than locking a person up in a cage for the rest of their lives.
If we made the death penalty a lot less expensive I'd be more for it.
A bullet costs $.05 and pigs eat for free.
Biden’s inflation has increased the price of ammo considerably. A .22LR bulk is twice that. Something more appropriate like a 9mm +P hollowpoint will be about a dollar a cartridge.
Random decimation in the Roman sense. Via a lottery in the Shirley Jackson sense.
wrong /rôNG/ adjective
1. not correct or true; incorrect. "that is the wrong answer"
2. unjust, dishonest, or immoral. "they were wrong to take the law into their own hands"
Ron, you conflate these two definitions all the time. It's why I don't respect your writing, and I suspect that's true for many others.
You can't claim to be a devotee of science and then start telling a broad public audience that they're "wrong" about a matter of policy over which reasonable people may disagree. Doing so isn't "wrong", but it is stupid.
Unless you can provide any example of something that is true which is also unjust, immoral or dishonest, you’re wrong.
So your argument is that the two definitions are the same thing, despite the fact that the publishers of the dictionary considered them sufficiently distinct to list them separately? Really?
My argument is that context is important.
When used in the same context, truth cannot be immoral, unjust or dishonest.
Mixing contexts is irrational behaviour.
You have had your face wiped in your bullshit more often than a care to count and like the lefty stupids here, you return to repeat the same damn lies.
Fuck off and die, shitbag.
You can’t cite a link to a single occasion to support your delusion though.
You have had your face wiped in your bullshit more often than a care to count and like the lefty stupids here, you return to repeat the same damn lies.
Fuck off and die, nazi asshole.
You’re the joke who is saying that your inability to refute anything I say is rubbing my face in anything.
If you had ever refuted anything I’ve said you could cite a link to it. You never have.
Instead, you’re the joke sitting there, face all rubbed in, well it ain’t roses.
You have had your face wiped in your bullshit more often than a care to count and like the lefty stupids here, you return to repeat the same damn lies.
Fuck off and die, nazi asshole.
You’re just a lying waste of skin.
Make your family proud, steaming pile of shit: Fuck off and die. In a gas chamber.
You have had your face wiped in your bullshit more often than a care to count and like the lefty stupids here, you return to repeat the same damn lies.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Travelling back in time and killing Karl Marx as a child would have avoided many of the mass murders of the 20th century.
I don’t think we can know that. Perhaps in our efforts, we introduce more injustice. But this statement is factually incorrect in other ways (meaning it doesn’t deal with true things). We can not travel in time. This is a thought experiment involving mores and being factual has little to do with the experiment.
Stephen Fry's Making History.
http://library.lol/fiction/D7300DE56BAF0A72FACE84F3DD78FF80
Guy goes back in time to ensure that Hitler is never born. Comes back only to find that there was never a Hitler, but another fascist pig equally rotten and powerful had arisen as a kind of substitute.
Such studies suggest that there is something substantially different about the virulence of partisan sentiment in recent years and that the trend isn't going away. Why do Americans increasingly think ill of their political opponents?....Based on these results, the researchers urge analysts of public opinion to "consider the possibility that the appearance of polarization in American politics is, to some extent, an artifact of survey measurement rather than evidence of real and deeply held differences in assessments of facts."
This is exactly right imo. The polarization in polls is the intended CONSEQUENCE of the desire by top-downers in both parties to manipulate elections/opinions by using surveys, negative ads, national consultants, national issues framed in polarizing emotional terms - and the big money that understands exactly how the mass mind is and can be manipulated.
Unfortunately, understanding that dynamic doesn't solve a damn thing because it IS an intended consequence. Not an accident or a 'problem' to that group of 'elites'.
This from a lying piece of lefty shit who championed the chicken little school covid response, promoting top-down control of your life, and now OWNS the economic disaster he and other assholes caused by him and his brethren.
Now he whines about 'top-down'?
Stuff it up your ass with your PANIC flag, asshole, then please fuck off and die.
The increasing polarization is a direct correlative to the increasing power of the central government and the weakening power of the states.
Agree. But while government centralization is the specific purpose of the top-downer types (and has been since at least Santa Clara County v Southern Pacific), those mass communication/persuasion methods will always tend towards centralization even if the goal is decentralization. iow - if the goal is decentralization, then you can't use the same methods of persuasion as are currently being used.
Both major parties want to use initiatory force to carry out their policies so they're wrong from the start. In any action between individuals the first question should always be "Does it violate the NAP?" If you answer this question you'll never be wrong.
"Both major parties..."
One more TDS-addled pile of shit heard from.
I don't see your point. The Republicans don't want to initiate force? That's news to me. I mean I haven't heard even Rand Paul say let's end taxation or drug prohibition.
"I don't see your point..."
The point is there are major differences between parties, and if you don't see that, you're either not real bright or willfully obtuse.
Yess, government exists by force; it cannot do so otherwise, but that in no way affects the differences.
That's true but that doesn't change the fact both parties' policies violate the NAP. Since asking if an action between individuals involves the initiatory use of force by either party is the first moral question to ask neither passes.
As for your second part proper government holds a monopoly on the RETALIATORY use of force. When government initiates force that's tyranny and it's immoral.
"That's true but that doesn't change the fact both parties' policies violate the NAP. Since asking if an action between individuals involves the initiatory use of force by either party is the first moral question to ask neither passes."
Seems you're an anarchist or 'unrealistic'; end of discussion. Government cannot exist without violating the NAP; collecting taxes requires it.
If government only carried out its proper function of defending liberty it would be so small as to be funded on a nonceorcive basis. It would probably be voluntary. It would be a great honor to be asked to be a government official. Do you understand anything about libertarianism?
"If government only carried out its proper function of defending liberty it would be so small as to be funded on a nonceorcive basis."
I'd be happy to get your newsletter!
Or you could grow up.
I doubt the latter.
I thought the discussion was ended. I guess since you replied with an ad hominem instead of any kind of cogent counterargument it is.
This is only true where the population self-governs. Since we have largely done away with the discipline of self-governance, we reap big government.
Because lack of self governance leads to chaos and chaos leads to demanding more intervention and more intervention leads to bigger government.
We used to have a strong religious component that promotes self governance (or governance by God over personal self). The rejection of that has led to less self governance, more chaos, and bigger government.
"I thought the discussion was ended. I guess since you replied with an ad hominem instead of any kind of cogent counterargument it is."
Fuck off and die.
Now the discussion is ended, asshole.
You learn that in debate club?
"Both major parties want to use initiatory force to carry out their policies so they're wrong from the start."
This is the perfect solution fallacy.
"[It supposes] that a course of action should be rejected because it is not perfect, even though it is the best option available.
This fallacy is an example of black and white thinking, in which a person fails to see the complex interplay between multiple component elements of a situation or problem, and as a result, reduces complex problems to a pair of binary extremes."
https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/perfect-solution-fallacy/
Because the Drug War and the Holocaust both violated the NAP does not mean that the American government of the 1990s was just as bad as Nazi Germany, and because the Republican party an the Democrats both violate the NAP in various ways does not mean those violations are of equal frequency or intensity. Being shot in the face and being punched in the arm are not the same because they're both violations of the NAP--one is far more preferable than the other.
You yourself have promoted facile, black-and-white thinking in your comments. For example, your recent claim that American progressives are exactly the same as Chinese Communists, despite obvious differences such as their positions on, for example, gay rights and racism.
Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. The NAP is a black and white question. Force is initiated or it isn't.
False dichotomies are only false when they're false. If the reality is that we only have two options to choose from, and one is far worse than the other, then that's the reality--regardless of whether you we like it.
You can not vote.
Tl;dr, "why can't we all just get along?"
Division is natural, the whole notion of humans being a social species has it's limits, and everyone who's tried to disprove that ends up fueling the hatred they claim to oppose.
Once you accept this, you'll be happier.
The human race has transcended many aspects of nature.
Cite?
This is the kind of cawment Dee makes when she’s trying hard to sound intelligent. Pointless? Yes, but it made her feel good about herself for a moment. She needs that.
Humanity only has one problem, people initiating force against others. As long as I'm not being physically attacked I couldn't care less about what you think or feel or believe.
People who commit intentional murder—and only those people—should be executed.
Does that include Eichmann? Pretty sure he never pulled a trigger himself.
What about anyone else who orders a murder but delegates the dirty work to an underling? How about King Henry II and the murder of Thomas Beckett?
-jcr
He did commit intentional (mass) murder even though he did not pull the trigger (or did he? I believe it's possible he killed some). Furthermore, your example is similar to the liberal counter to the right to bear arms. They often tell libertarians that: "oh well, so would you allow people to buy nuclear weapons too?". The answer is ofc that the question itself is a ridiculous exaggeration. The right to bear arms has nothing to do with WMDs. Likewise, war crimes and genocide are leagues above simple homicide cases. In Eichmann's case it was obviously proven beyond any reasonable doubt that he committed those crimes and I see no problem with his execution, even though I don't support state-sanctioned executions in general. Even the appeal did not dispute his crimes, they argued on grounds of jurisdiction.
Would you execute one of Stalin's goons who looted farmers, causing them to starve to death, even if said goon hadn't actually shot anyone?
-jcr
It's seems to me that all real crimes are choices. It isn't what you did that makes it a crime. It's what you chose to do. Self-defense isn't murder--because we can't stand in judgement of someone's choice not to die. Still, if self-defense is intentionally killing someone, then intentionally killing someone by itself isn't murder.
If Eichman was guilty of anything, it was making a series of conscious choices that led to people's deaths. Even in cases of criminal negligence, we're talking about someone who consciously chose not to do something that they knew it would lead to someone's death.
To my mind, making the choice to kill a criminal for the best reasons you can give--whether it be to incapacitate the criminal permanently, retribution, or as a matter of saving the expense of housing him--is committing the same crime as the premeditated murderer. We're weighing the costs and the benefits, and deciding to kill someone on that basis.
It's the choice to kill someone that's wrong.
A man walks out of a grocery store, gets into what he believes to be his new car, starts it up with his keys, and drives the car home. An hour later, the police show up at his door and arrest him for auto theft. Turns out, he'd forgotten exactly where he parked, entered someone else's new car, they key every third car with the same key, and his just happened to fit the other guy's car. His own car is still sitting in the parking lot where he left it. Is he guilty of auto theft?
The correct answer is no--because he never chose to steal the car.
Mens rea is dead, dude. That person will be charged with grand theft auto and then be forced to take a plea bargain.
It can't be that hard.
If I'm ever wrong, I'm sure it will be easy to admit it.
NO IT WON’T!
Buckleys argument in favor was that if it deters even one murder, it is justified, and that it is impossible to prove that it doesn't deter at least a few.
For me it's an inequality. Is the number of murders deterred greater than the number of non guilty people put to death. During WW 2, around 50 U.S. soldiers were executed for raping French women. But if you were a white guy, you were much less likely to get such a severe sentence than if you were black.
CS Lewis' argument was that since deterrence doesn't even require actual guilt to be punished - merely the perceived appearance of guilt - then capital punishment for the purpose of deterrence leads directly to social scapegoating (or more accurately the sacrificial goat). As indicated by the example you cited.
Just looking at rapes during WW2 in different theaters.
There were an estimated 17,000 rapes by GI's in the European theater. JAG only recorded 854.
I'm gonna guess that only blacks (guilty or not) would have been executed for raping German women - and maybe not even then since the military didn't really care.
I don't know the stats for raping French/British women but my guess is that the white soldiers executed had serious other accusations as well (like murder, serial psychopaths, etc) while black soldiers could simply be executed to deter others.
In postwar Japan, the Japanese government set up brothels within a month or so of the end of the war to deter rapes on upper/middle class Japanese women. An estimated 10,000 rapes occurred in Okinawa between June and Aug 1945. Many thousands in occupied Japan during early Sept 1945. While the brothels were open (closed in mid 1946 because VD was basically universal by then and penicillin was in shortage), 40 rapes per day were reported. When they were closed, the number of rapes rose to 300 per day. The response to any reports of that in the press was - to censor the press not to punish anyone. There were only six courtmartials (no executions) - fewer than the number of journalists imprisoned for reporting on rapes in the press.
So what happens when no one gives a shit about deterrence?
Great source you link there, lefty shit:
Overall, we rate Truthout strongly Left Biased based on story selection and political positions that favor the left. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to publishing a false story and promoting anti-GMO propaganda.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/truth-out/
I think the Joshi discussion is off base. All of the controversial propositions are value judgments, not assertions of fact. The simple explanation for differences in preference is that people prioritize values differently.
For example, libertarians are likely to prioritize freedom over the benefits that are argued to accrue from the coercive measures in Joshi's list.
It's at least possible that all parties agree on factual data while remaining completely at odds on their responses to Joshi's list.
It's also worth pointing out that most positions can be supported by a variety of fact-based arguments, and that neither side chooses to present the full story.
Libertarians, again, are more likely to see big-picture costs and consequences, and be more skeptical that the good intentions of Joshi's proposals would in actuality play out for the best.
"It's at least possible that all parties agree on factual data while remaining completely at odds on their responses to Joshi's list.
It's also worth pointing out that most positions can be supported by a variety of fact-based arguments, and that neither side chooses to present the full story."
Libertarians take the good parts of people who disagree with us. Ayn Rand loathed libertarians generally (and both Hayek to Rothbard specifically), and we still take direct inspiration from some of her work--when appropriate. George Orwell was a socialist, which we loathe, but we take direct inspiration from his work about totalitarianism and do-good imperialism. Christopher Hitchens was a former Trotskyist convert to neoconservatism. As a libertarian, I disagreed with him on almost everything--and yet we were all reading everything he wrote. Here, take a look at this video he made with Reason:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZJ0mo0r3zs
There are some libertarian things about Greenwald, on the one hand, and other things that are not so libertarian. Plenty of us read him anyway. I'm a fan of Masha Gessen--even though [they] isn't libertarian at all. I generally prefer to read people who disagree with me because you generally won't learn anything new or interesting by reading, conversing, or associating with people who agree with us. You'll find that most of the libertarians here disagree on a whole slew of topics--there are libertarians in this thread who disagree with me about trade with China, open borders, Section 230, and foreign policy.
Orwell made a famous quote about how the real difference wasn't between conservatives and revolutionaries but between authoritarians and libertarians, and it was his adherence to rational discourse that makes his work amenable to libertarian sensibilities--even though he was wrong about socialism, etc. The issue nowadays is that the left has abandoned that kind of commitment to facts, logic, argument, and persuasion. The progressives simply don't care whether they're right or wrong anymore.
What if the reason it's hard for progressives to admit that they're wrong is because they don't care whether they're wrong, and why should we engage with progressives on the left if they don't care whether they're wrong? Just take a look at two stories over the last couple of weeks--Rittenhouse and inflation.
Progressives were openly calling for Rittenhouse to be convicted of murder--not because he was guilty of anything but because of the message acquitting him sent to racists (in their minds). Why should we engage with people who, in a discussion about a defendants guilt or innocence, don't care whether the defendant is guilty. They started inventing crimes (like crossing state lines) to justify it--but they didn't really care whether he was guilty of anything.
Have you see the inflation denialism coming from progressives in defense of the BBB budget reconciliation bill over the last week? It's one thing to claim that although the spending has contributed to inflation and passing the BBB budget reconciliation bill will probably contribute to it further, that we should pass the BBB budget reconciliation bill anyway for reasons x, y, and z. No, they refuse to acknowledge that inflation is caused by the money supply growing faster than the real economy--for the same reasons the Catholic church refused to acknowledge heliocentric theory.
I repeat. Progressivism--the dominant force in the Democratic party at present--does not care whether the facts support their position. They do not care whether their policies are rational. They do not care whether they are wrong or right on any particular position or whether they're wrong or right generally. They do not care about the likely real world consequences of their policies. Their beliefs are religious in nature, with little or no grounding in the real world, and there is no good reason to argue with them about anything.
Once they stop caring about facts, logic, or whether they're wrong or right, what's left to discuss? The issue isn't that we don't consider progressive arguments. The issue is that their "arguments" are based on nothing but their feelings--with a sharp bias against caring whether they're wrong or right. Much better to concentrate on Republicans, moderate Democrats, and swing voters at that point. Arguing with progressives is like deprogramming a Moonie. You need to somehow try to initiate critical thinking in their minds first, or facts, rational argument, etc. have no effect. You might as well argue with your cat.
Once they stop caring about facts, logic, or whether they're wrong or right, what's left to discuss?
Look in the mirror, bub.
I think the Joshi discussion is off base. All of the controversial propositions are value judgments, not assertions of fact. The simple explanation for differences in preference is that people prioritize values differently.
I think the point is that those value judgements are manipulated in order to link those together so that they are NOT simply individual preferences which would always have some elements of 'randomness' or 'inconsistency'. It is pure statistical distribution of independent factors v dependent factors. I can remember that sort of categorization/linking when I was doing county/state level stuff in the R's.
There were three 'types' of R voters - social conservatives, 2A/military, tax cut/deregulation/cronyism. Based on their own priority hot button. But the purpose of the party messaging is to
a)make each of those internally consistent - so that, eg the 2A/military folks support both the individual right to bear as well as a strong standing military, big defense budget, very active intervention overseas with good v evil typing of foreigners, and impugning 'anti-war' hippie/commies/peacenik/surrendermonkey types.
b)link those together so that even if only one is a hot button for that person, the views of the other two issues became associated purely as in-the-tribe (allies to gain power) or outside-the-tribe (enemies who deny access to power). And those 'unimportant' issues actually become the source of the emotional and anti-rational attachment to tribe.
Great source you link there, lefty shit:
Overall, we rate Truthout strongly Left Biased based on story selection and political positions that favor the left. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to publishing a false story and promoting anti-GMO propaganda.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/truth-out/
Sorry, wrong JFree bullshit; see a bit upthread regarding this outfit 'estimating' Allied rapes in WWII
And the cornerstone that ALL this debate and division rests upon??
The ever-growing National Socialism (i.e. Nazi) Regime in the USA that !!! Champions/Cheer leads !!! a limitless [WE] mob/gang democracy dictatorship over a Constitutional Union of Republican States.
...because that's what Nazi's do.
Which party is that? I can never tell.
I see the democraps in the lead on that one. The far-right would love it as well... they're just not as violent and overt about it right now.
Modern politics is like a sport now. Your team absolutely sucks and couldn't find their ass with two hands? Still gotta root for them. The other team has an impressive offense and real talent? F*** them. MY team just needs to rebuild. Going down with the ship used to be a sign of courage. Now it's a badge of stupidity seen every day on the news and in the so-called "social media."
The internet, nativity, and the absolute encouragement of egocentric behavior has mead this country and a complete sh*t-show. As a vet and a retired firefighter, I WASTED the last 30 years of my life. Time to say...f*** it all. Here's to hoping the next pandemic is something called Thanos and wipes out half the populace. Unfortunately, I can't choose half, but it's better than the current path we're on.
There are two sides but they aren’t right and left they’re right and wrong.
Truth, reality is on the side of right.
Lies are the side of wrong.
Choose right, maybe you won’t waste the rest of your life.
You should take your own advice, nazi scumbag.
Hey fuckwit, if you ever refute anything I say, you can accuse me of lying. Not before. You never have.
You fuck off!
You've been called on your bullshit claims enough that a human with even a room temperature IQ would be too embarrassed to post here again.
Not you, you pathetic excuse for humanity.
Fuck off and die.
Your ignorant meltdowns don’t intimidate or embarrass me.
Why Is It So Hard To Admit When You're Wrong?
A Reason contributor wrote this????
Here’s one link to a legit website
Marxism and Libertarianism derive from core principles but conservative or liberal values don't? Horseshit!
In my case it's from not enough practice.
Very frustrating article in that it fails to report the more likely cause of partisan division and rancor as the degradation of journalistic principles, especially with the once trusted MSM, do be primarily a mouthpiece for the DNC.
My wife hated Trump because she "knows" that he is a disgusting P-grabber. I explained that his comment was a hot-mic boys-chat recording from over 20 years ago when he was a billionaire playboy and that I have probably said similar things with the boys in the locker room. However, she had it repeated so many time from the dishonest DNC media that she was sure of her position. Multiply those type of "reports" from the MSM and then you don't have to wonder why Republicans begin to hate Democrats.
"You're also likely to be wrong about the characteristics of members of the other party, about what they actually believe, and even about their views of you."
Well I live in liberal land and routinely test out this question and I can frankly say that it is wrong. My liberal friends believe the extremes that I assume from the facts reported (for example, believe we should defund the police and limit individual freedom of speech and expression), and they call me all the names that are indicative of hate.
Just an aside. Trump said something that is actually true. He never said he did it. What he said is that if you are rich and famous woman will let you do anything even grab their "pu**y. That is a very true but vulgar way to put what is a reality. Some men will do and/or say most anything to achieve their ends. My guess is Trump was speaking from direct experience. Too many people in the political world utilize others statements for their own virtue signaling or political purposes.
I, in the past agreed with you on the death penalty. Problem is a conviction for a particular horrid crime is often NEVER 100% accurate. Just review on of the oldest cases. That of Jesus Christ. Convicted and executed for reasons having little to do with his innocence or guilt. That aside the argument for prison without parole is a false argument since murders of Police Officers who are beyond a doubt guilty are regulary released after a time in prison even after being sentenced to "life without parole."
Just a comment on your initial statement.
"To the extent that factual beliefs are determined by partisanship, paying partisans to answer correctly should not affect their responses to factual questions. But it does," they observe. "We find that even modest payments substantially reduce the observed gaps between Democrats and Republicans, which suggests that Democrats and Republicans do not hold starkly different beliefs about many important facts."
Can't say I've never answered a question with the fact I knew the teach sure thought was the correct answer even when I disagreed. Conservatives and most liberals will say anything if you pay them.
Did they administer the same test where participants were made aware the "correct" answer would be the one conforming to conservative belief, and see if liberals intentionally gave the wrong answer just to get paid?
As with so much of how the brain works, tribalism is a double-edged sword.
We are wired to see us and them. High empathy applies to "us"--but the same high empathy brain manifests a stronger revulsion at "them."
The good news is that what counts as an "us" is infinitely malleable. Experiments show a bleak tendency for white people in American culture to automatically count people with dark skin as a "them." But put a baseball cap on the black person with your favorite sports team logo, and suddenly they are an "us."
The challenge is simply to make the entire human species an "us." Teach it to children. Figure it out, or we will all kill each other over literally nothing.
If we just apply the NAP by prohibiting the initiatory use of force it wouldn't matter if they are us or them, black or white.
"Why Is It So Hard To Admit When You're Wrong?"
Well because I have never been wrong!
I thought I was wrong once, but I was only mistaken.
It is difficult to find value in analysis of human actions that does not take into account the law of human action. Unless that basic premise if factored into the choices individuals make the analysis is anecdotal and probably not worth much towards understanding the topic.
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It is not about right or wrong. It is about two political philosophies that cannot coexist.
One is socialism, a planned economy and dictatorship.
The other is capitalism, a free economy, liberty, and democracy.
Both camps think their is is the best option, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.
Everything is either capitalism or socialism?