George Floyd

Derek Chauvin's Belief That George Floyd Was Intoxicated Does Not Help His Case

If drugs played a role in Floyd's death, the prone restraint only compounded that danger.

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After paramedics removed George Floyd's body from the scene of his fatal arrest on May 25, Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin defended his use of force in a conversation with a bystander. "We got to control this guy, because he's a sizable guy, and it looks like he's probably on something," Chauvin told Charles McMillian in a body camera video that was played for jurors in Chauvin's murder trial yesterday.

McMillian testified that Chauvin was responding to his criticism of the way the officer had treated Floyd, who was handcuffed and lying facedown on the pavement as Chauvin knelt on his neck. According to prosecutors, Chauvin maintained that position for more than nine minutes, despite Floyd's repeated complaints that he was having trouble breathing. Chauvin kept his knee there even after concerned bystanders repeatedly warned that Floyd's life was in danger, even after another officer repeatedly suggested that Floyd should be rolled onto his side in light of his "excited delirium," even after Floyd was no longer responsive, even after Chauvin was repeatedly told that Floyd had no detectable pulse, and even after the ambulance arrived.

Chauvin said that use of force was justified because he and his colleagues were dealing with "a sizable guy" who seemed to be intoxicated. Former Minneapolis police officer Tou Thao, who is charged with aiding and abetting Chauvin's assault on Floyd and will be tried separately, shared that impression. "This is why you don't do drugs, kids," he jocularly told bystanders as Chauvin knelt on Floyd.

After Officers Thomas Lane and J. Alexander Kueng arrested him for buying cigarettes with a counterfeit $20 bill, Floyd panicked and struggled with them as they tried to place him in their squad car, saying he was claustrophobic, complaining that he could not breathe, and asking if he could ride in the front seat. Chauvin apparently thought Floyd was behaving that way because he was on drugs. But that consideration should have underlined the danger of the prone restraint he used.

The evidence indicates that Floyd had ingested black-market "Percocet" tablets that contained fentanyl and methamphetamine, and an autopsy report from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office said both drugs were detected in his blood. The report still classified Floyd's death as a homicide, saying it was caused by "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression." Chauvin's lawyer, Eric Nelson, nevertheless argues that the drugs were partly responsible for Floyd's death, which he attributes to "a cardiac arrhythmia that occurred as a result of hypertension, his coronary disease, the ingestion of methamphetamine and fentanyl, and the adrenaline flowing through his body, all of which acted to further compromise an already compromised heart."

Nelson says Floyd continued to resist even after he was handcuffed and pinned to the ground by Chauvin, Lane, and Kueng. But judging from a bystander video of the encounter, Floyd's resistance was limited to moving his head and right shoulder (consistent with his complaint that he could not breathe) and begging for mercy. In any case, Floyd's apparent intoxication should have counted against the restraint technique that Chauvin used rather than in its favor.

Lane, the officer who suggested that Floyd should be rolled off his stomach, offered this reason: "I am worried about excited delirium or whatever." The same concern figured in a 1998 case involving a man who died in police custody. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit held that police force can be excessive "when a drug-affected person in a state of excited delirium is hog-tied and placed face down in a prone position," which "may present a substantial risk of death or serious bodily harm." Although Floyd was not hog-tied, the obvious stress caused by the prone restraint plausibly contributed to the "adrenaline flowing through his body" and the "cardiac arrhythmia" described by Nelson—even if you rule out asphyxia, as Nelson does.

The prosecution, meanwhile, argues that Floyd's breathing was obstructed, so much so that it caused "an anoxic seizure." But either way, Chauvin's actions can hardly be viewed as irrelevant to Floyd's death, even if there were other contributing factors.

Chauvin is charged with unintentional second-degree murder, which applies to someone who "causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense"—in this case, third-degree assault. To prove causation, the prosecution need only persuade the jury that Floyd would not have died if Chauvin had not committed that assault.

Alternatively, the jury could convict Chauvin of third-degree murder. That charge accuses him of causing Floyd's death by "perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life." Here, too, causation hinges on whether Floyd would have survived this encounter if Chauvin had acted differently.

Chauvin also faces a charge of second-degree manslaughter, which alleges that he caused Floyd's death "by his culpable negligence, creating an unreasonable risk and consciously [taking] the chances of causing great bodily harm to another." Again, that requires showing that Chauvin's actions were the but-for cause of Floyd's death.

The second-degree murder charge also requires proving that Chauvin intentionally committed an assault, while the third-degree murder and manslaughter charges require proving either that his actions were "eminently dangerous" and reflected "a depraved mind" or that he "consciously" created "an unreasonable risk" of "great bodily harm." In these analyses—especially the latter two—Chauvin's belief that Floyd was intoxicated does not help his case.

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  1. I’m very much looking forward to the peaceful protesters burning down Minneapolis again. Emote Magazine will ignore the billions of damage to small businesses and side with globohomo corporations… again.

    Perhaps we should sending overdosing nutjobs to Emote’s headquarters and the can deal with it

    1. They’re in the modern Green Zone. It’s not likely.

      Are we going to have this fight in the comments every night until this trial is over? I mean, it’s red meat for this site’s shitty Alexa ranking, I guess.

      1. 6cc is a poor parody Jay. Probably Welch.

        1. Is he? I hadn’t thought of him as such. Shrug.

          He made a decent point about this magazine not giving a shit about civil disorder until the Mob showed up to their doorstep. I’ve made that point a few times before.

          1. Could be wrong. “Emote Magazine” and “globohomo” are what made me think so.

            Maybe I should just be proud that “Emote Magazine” is taking off, since I COINED IT!

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  2. I do wish Mr. Sullum would indicate, at the outset, whether he is reporting or editorializing.

  3. So he’s supposed to be an expert on intoxication? Anyway nothing proves intent on his part. Oh I know the powerful government wants its noose in the public square to ward off the pitchforks.

    1. Another meeting of Libertarians For Abusive, Cruel Policing (Ideally Against Black People) is convened . . .

      1. Yep. I question whether it’s their loyalty to police or racism. Either way, result is the same.

        1. Well they don’t have much sympathy for police officers when it is white men beating on the officer.

    2. They do not need to prove intent. Actually none of the charges require the prosecution to prove that he intended to kill him.

      Chauvin himself said several times that he believed Floyd was on drugs during the incident. His supervisor stated in court that this should require the officer to use more precaution in use of force, not less.

      The defense has not presented their case yet so we will see what they come up with.

    3. Also yes he is expected to be something of an expert in intoxication.

  4. This whole thing is a pain in the neck.

    1. Just take a deep breath and relax.

    2. Hmm, just like Freddy Gray. Call Sherlock Holmes, we have a mystery!

  5. From here on out, violent junkies are to be treated lovingly and with respect. Their selfless nature should be admired by all. None of these poor “urban angels” were warned about the dangers of heroin and Fentanyl, so little is known of it’s side effects! Who knew?
    I grew up around junkies. They robbed kids regularly. They broke into cars, houses, and businesses. They rob their own families. They are constantly on the prowl. I never saw a single junkie that was doing something productive, ever. Not once. You had to have your head on a swivel and carry a knife or they would rob you. The PCP “Dustheads” were even worse. They cruise the neighborhood like a Zombie on speed. You can’t just cross the street, they hunt people. You can’t hurt them, they feel no pain. If you do fight, you have to do something heinous. People should not have to live like that. I wish they would release a pack of “Dustheads” in Congress and lock the doors. Most people are clueless about junkies. Nobody feels sorry for them after they have lived around them.
    Everyone in the ghetto hates junkies except the dealers. They are a constant pain in the backside. When they die, their families are relieved. The entire neighborhood cracks jokes and are just tickled that they no longer have to deal with that particular scumbag.
    I watch these people praising Floyd and I want to vomit. That man lived to get high and by doing so he has brought nothing but misery to law abiding people wherever he was. The angel wings are ridiculous. The murals are an eyesore but they will let you know that you are in the ghetto. Floyd should be a cautionary tale, not a damn hero tale.

    1. And they all want cake.

    2. Floyd should be a cautionary tale, not a damn hero tale.

      Well, I suspect your average black American is a lot closer to being George Floyd than they are to being Thomas Sowell. He is a hero for a reason and that is because a whole lot of people are complete fucking losers. Degeneracy is the norm.

      1. Goddam.

        1. Problem?

          1. I’m not wading into that, lol.

            1. Floyd got a gold casket and national recognition. Sowell gets called a worthless house nigger.

              That should tell you everything you need to know.

              1. Whoa, who calls Sowell that?

                Calm down, homie. My city, and even my neighborhood has been overrun with crime this year, so I’m sympathetic to your anger with junkies. I try not to extrapolate that anger to subcategories of probably unrelated and different people.

                The best look for libertarians would be to keep Floyd’s death and Chauvin’s trial about criminal justice and police accountability. Not race.

                1. Whoa, who calls Sowell that?

                  It’s pretty common. If you listen to KPFA – Hard Knock Radio the hosts of that show have referred to Sowell specifically, and generally any black who shows deference to education and a work ethic, by that term. It’s so common that it really doesn’t even elicit a second look anymore – they will throw that term out without hesitation.

                  1. Ah, Hard Knock Radio. Used to listen on my commute home every day. One of my favorite comedy shows. Haven’t heard it since my work hours shifted.

                    1. I used to put a bee in the bonnet off progs by pretending to be stunned that it wasn’t comedic performance art when it was brought up

                  2. Never heard of it. Sounds awful.

                    1. You’re not missing much. I only listen to KPFA because I don’t have to hear ads for Kars4Kids, OrangeOil, Solar Panels, Steven Moskowitz, Dynovite, Dave Ramsey, etc every ten minutes.

                2. “ Well, I suspect your average black American is a lot closer to being George Floyd …”

                  Whole stop.

                    1. I have yet to find any “I am Thomas Sowell” shirts for sale.

                    2. I found like 30 Sowell t shirts

                    3. And not a single “I am Thomas Sowell” shirt.

                      Nice deflection.

                    4. You are a very funny person sometimes.

                      Perhaps it would be rude to declare “I am” for someone who is still alive. He certainly has many fans.

      2. You think the average black American is closer to holding a gun to the belly of a pregnant woman than they are to being educated and employed?

        1. Is that what I said?

          1. Well, I suspect your average black American is a lot closer to being George Floyd than they are to being Thomas Sowell

            Unless you didn’t know he had done that, yes. I know a few melanin enhanced people that have never tried to pass counterfeit money let alone threaten a pregnant woman and unborn child with a handgun, let alone possess the mentality that accepts such actions as viable options in every day life

            1. From your username, I did not expect this opinion. What a pleasant surprise.

            2. That is not what I said. If you cannot engage with the actual written words, do not bother engaging at all.

              In the meantime, this should help:

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)

              1. Well, I suspect your average black American is a lot closer to being George Floyd than they are to being Thomas Sowell

                Ok I am willing to suspend the notion that you are being obtuse and I admit misinterpreting what you are saying. So what did you mean with the above statement?

                1. In response to Talcum X, I posited that George Floyd is deified and upheld as a “hero” by black Americans because his circumstances are not all that far remove from their own. Many black American see themselves in George Floyd. And, why shouldn’t they? Many black Americans are convicted felons (particularly males) with a shaky relationship with the legal system. That was the point and I thought it was clear.

                  1. Many black American see themselves in George Floyd. And, why shouldn’t they?

                    Citation missing

                    Many black Americans are convicted felons (particularly males) with a shaky relationship with the legal system.

                    I would be willing to bet my paycheck vs yours that the number of Americans who are felons and black is dwarfed by the number who aren’t felons and black.

                    That was the point and I thought it was clear.

                    I really hope you got me with an April Fool’s gag and you aren’t as bigoted as may be inferred from your statement.

                    1. > I would be willing to bet my paycheck vs yours that the number of Americans who are felons and black is dwarfed by the number who aren’t felons and black.

                      No idea one way or the other, but if you’re trying for a real comparison you need to use percentage instead of number.

                      And it should also be noted that GG’s statement doesn’t in any way take into account whether any of those people of any ethnicity are *correctly* felons.

                      In fact, the more woke crowd should likely believe this to be true, if the claims of a racist justice system are to be taken as a given. Arguendo; black people are more likely to be treated harshly by the justice system, it follows that a higher percentage of black people would end up with a felony record.

                    2. No idea one way or the other, but if you’re trying for a real comparison you need to use percentage instead of number.

                      I’m not the one who claimed that most black men are closer to George Floyd than Thomas Sowell, said black men see themselves in a drug addicted, violent criminal, and claimed that black men have shaky relationships with the law.

                    3. You’re the one that offered the bet. I’m just pointing out the necessary conditions for a legitimate comparison.

                    4. Fuck off White Knight.

                  2. many =/ average

      3. Geiger’s wrong here. But he isn’t as wrong as we all would hope. And the claim is incendiary anyway: I’m closer to having George Floyd’s career than I am to the incredibly accomplished life Thomas Sowell has had. Doesn’t mean I’m committing home invasions anytime soon.

        But see this, https://www.sentencingproject.org/news/5593/ , for a look at how bad the problem of crime in the black community is, wherein they cite a prison demographic study and make the claim that, “one-third of black men had a felony conviction in 2010.” Unquote.

        Not arrested, not misdemeanors. Felony convictions. Holy fucking shit. I really hope they were double-counting frequent fliers, but I’m not sure they were.

        I’m sure the situation has gotten better as crime got worse with things like decriminalizing theft and Covid-related compassionate release. We have a serious problem in this country with the culture in the urban black community.

        1. That’s a long winded way of saying I’m right lol

        2. If you identify more with criminal drug abusers, while ridiculing the successful (for “acting white”), then your culture has a problem.

          Now there are white communities that have these same pathologies, but the white population as a whole works very hard to NOT memorialize them. We have true crime literature aimed at law enforcement and reporters specifically aimed at best practices to reduce focus on the worst of our people. No one complains when our violent offenders get killed during an arrest.

          But the black community, manipulated by the media, gloms on to the absolute worst cases to illustrate police brutality. Maybe Breonna Taylor was the right case, but she is not going to get Freddie Gray, George Floyd, or Trayvon Martin treatment. MAYBE because whites AGREE with that one!

          The cases pushed by the media simply do not amount to the level the average white person thinks is brutal – an innocent person getting gunned down in cold blood. You know, like the Hispanic father who died because his house got SWATTED because of a video game spat.

          I can’t, for the life of me, figure out how Black Lives Matter only for drugged up, violent gang bangers, but they ridicule valedictorians and straight laced hard workers that come from their own communities.

          1. This is controversial, but I endorse this viewpoint as well.

      4. When I call you out for being a bigoted racist redneck remember this post.

        Backwards white trash fascist

        1. Nazi racist.

          1. You’re the Racist nazi. You’re also an anti-American traitor.

            1. No, you’re the bigot racist.

              1. Whatever traitor.

                Why did so many others have a problem with your comment?

                1. Because they cannot read and/or cannot accept a general observation about reality and/or are sock accounts, just like you.

                  Now go die in a hole, you racist bigot nazi terf.

                  1. TRAITOR

                    1. LDS chaser.

                  2. Fuck you, asshole. You know you you were talking out your ass and got called on it.

                    And now you pull this sophistry to try and make yourself not look like a fucking cock by impugning everyone for inferring your obvious bigotry for what it is.

                    No one misconstrued what you said. You aren’t that clever.

                    1. Fuck off DOL

                    2. Not me, bro.

      5. I don’t think that most people are losers. Many are a product of their environment. If we could get the young kids out of their environment and show then a different life, we can fix the broken cities.
        Instead of prisons, we should try remote work/training camps. Teach them the basics. Give them a path. Build them up. That could break the cycle. If they adhere to the program, teach them a trade. When they are trained up for the job market, you can place them. Clearly, our current system isn’t working. You can send a kid to trade school in the city but there are usually challenges around them that they can’t overcome. Getting them out of there for a few months is key.
        You see it happen in military basic training all the time. I made a 180 in basic training and never looked back.

        1. Yup. Discipline goes a long way. And we need to do something revolutionary, because this old way clearly has not worked.

    3. Right, and that’s got what to do with kneeling on the neck of a cuffed suspect who says he can’t breathe, over and over again, for nine fucking minutes how, exactly? The motherfucker was BEGGING

      Only if they acquit him. And if this fucker gets acquitted, well,

      1. Runner up for retard of the day goes to you, sir.

      2. He was saying he couldn’t breathe when they first cuffed him and were trying to get him to sit down in the back of the patrol car. That he began with “I can’t breathe” and then proceeded to fight the officers when they tried to put him in the cruiser is probably why they didn’t pay a lot of attention to that.

        If he was cooperative from the start with police, even after he surreptitiously swallowed his stash, and then complained he was having difficulty breathing the kneeling on the neck doesn’t happen. I think manslaughter will be the jury decision and a just result.

        1. The initial knee-on-the-neck subdual method was fine, but after Floyd became unresponsive — and especially after he stopped registering a pulse — is when the method stopped being appropriate. From that point on, Chauvin made a conscious decision to remain where he was.

          1. That’s my view as well. Use whatever force you have to to make the arrest, but once he’s in cuffs, there’s no need to keep applying force.

            1. Restraint is not force for purposes of this discussion, unless you care to characterize the cuffs themselves as force. The question of Chauvins guilt will hinge on his training. If he was doing as trained, then it is an indictment of the system, not the man, or perhaps not an indictment at all, since police are performing combat in these cases. It only take moments to choke a man out, this is not what was in the video. This became a big deal in order give the left a reason to riot, a political rush to judgement that served to shake the jar of ants. The attorney general is a political hack, and all the elements are in place for this to be a miscarriage of justice. Thinking people need not participate in this GOTCHA form of justice.

      3. Right, and that’s got what to do with kneeling on the neck of a cuffed suspect who says he can’t breathe, over and over again, for nine fucking minutes how, exactly?

        Well duh. Because he’s a black guy on drugs. /sarc

        1. According to Chuck you and I are the same person.

          I’m fine with letting that mormon pos think that, but I’m not sure if you wanna be associated with me.

          1. According to a lot of people, not just Chuck. Personally, I hope you aren’t a sock because that would be a sign of someone who needs help.

      4. I think that you should watch the entire video. It will give you a better perspective. Chauvin is a moron but Floyd was no angel.

        1. Exactly. Floyd put himself in this situation by trying to pass a counterfeit bill and subsequently escalated the problem until the confluence of his compromised health, criminal lifestyle, refusal to cooperate, and a morally bankrupt police officer resulted in his death

    4. Shit. No edit button, either. Fuck you, Reason. Alright, here we go:

      Right, and that’s got what to do with kneeling on the neck of a cuffed suspect who says he can’t breathe, over and over again, for nine fucking minutes how, exactly?

      The motherfucker was BEGGING for his life, begging for mercy, UNABLE to move, but the pig wouldn’t budge. Chauvin had plenty of opportunities to change course, but he didn’t, so fuck him.

      Floyd not being a fucking hero or whatever don’t mean shit. And I’ve got a feeling the jury won’t care, either.

      1. Take matters into your own hands, homeboy.

      2. But wouldn’t you agree that Floyd also had plenty of opportunities to change his course? Floyd passed that bill. Floyd ingested the drugs while knowing that he had a bad heart. He was also about to drive an SUV while higher than a kite. He was getting arrested no matter what.
        If Floyd had not resisted, the entire situation would have been different. He would have never have seen Chauvin that day, he would have been at the station where an AED and counteractive drugs would have been available. Instead, he fought. He was killing himself by adding stress and increasing his heart rate.
        I have been given Fentanyl in an ambulance. I had six fractures in my hip and three broken ribs. When they mentioned Fentanyl I was scared but I was in agony so I was willing. Within seconds, maybe 15 or 20, I felt very little pain. It washes over you immediatley and you completely relax. You aren’t stressed or worried. Fight? Hell no.
        George was on more than just Fentanyl. He was on a cocktail of drugs. In his condition, survival was a slim chance no matter what.

        1. I tried 2 fent lollipops that they were issuing for a little while in place of morphine auto injectors. They were expiring so our senior medic asked for volunteers in disposing of them. He wanted to have one of us try them to gauge the actual effect. Weak sauce. Took down 2 lollipops and barely felt a 2 beer buzz.

          I have no doubt fent is one of the most powerful narcs out there, but that army lollipop gave me no confidence.

          Now, a single hydrocodone after breaking a rib…pure relief.

      3. He said he couldn’t breathe in the car when nobody was touching him. He asked to lay on the ground.

        Perhaps his drug abuse, with his dealer being one of the state’s top witnesses, is a problem.

    5. Yes, the blm and that movement in general have been picking some real losers for their causes, but then again, they aren’t picking them, right? The cops are picking them, by killing them.

      I have no doubt that Floyd was a junkie, a thief, a scumbag. But do we think cops should be empowered to kill junkies, scumbags, and thieves? Or would we rather not empower state employees with a GED and a gun with a license to kill?

      It may well come out that the jury fails to convict, and that may even be the most justice outcome. I don’t know, I was not there. But the video I saw, with paramedics and other cops expressing concern over Floyd and Chauvin’s hold…it deserves this trial.

      1. I’d be willing to bet there is a crapload of people commenting on this website that absolutely want cops to be empowered to kill junkies, scumbags, and thieves.

        1. Probably just as many who want to empower the junkies, scumbags, and thieves so it balances out

        2. I’m listening on the “thieves” part. Don’t visit Texas, Joejoe.

          “Scumbags” too, depending on what made the scumbag a scumbag.

      2. I agree. There needs to be a trial and all sides should be heard. Chauvin is a known scumbag and he will no doubt suffer for his actions. Do you think that Keith Ellison was ever going to let this slide? It was never going to happen.
        I think about how many people were harmed by the over-reaction. I have read that 1800 businesess were damaged or destroyed in Minneapolis alone. That number is difficult to fathom. Minneapolis is not very big, they don’t even have a million in population. 1800 families lost their businesses. This will kill entire neighborhoods. Why should innocent, productive people suffer?
        BLM gave cover to the crazies and the arsonists. For that they should be punished, not paid. Serial arsonists are just like pedophiles in that they cannot be cured. They are still out there, waiting for the next march/riot. I have watched FBI videos of serial arsonists. It is scary. They masturbate while they watch the fire. Fire is their sex and last summer made them really horny.

        1. On rioting, I see riots as similar to a hurricane, a force of nature. If you have the right set of circumstances, a hurricane is inevitable. The same for a riot. Yes, the individual rioters are always responsible for their individual actions, but to be surprised when one breaks out is to show that you were ignoring the conditions that allow for and lead to rioting. MLK said it better:

          “Certain conditions continue to exist in our society, which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation’s summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention.”

          BLM (the org.) is full of power hungry and ambitious leftists, I have no doubt. But I see that as a separate, and much less important sub issue in the overall giant mess that is racial justice/relations in America. Maybe I’m wrong, and maybe the Jesse Jacksons, BLM’s, and various other race baiters are the true problem. They certainly have not been helpful.

    6. Floyd, however odious, didn’t deserve to die for passing a counterfeit bill and being a junkie. Chauvin killed him – not intentionally, but he did kill Floyd. I don’t believe it was racially motivated either – had Floyd been Asian, Latino, or white, Chauvin would have done the same thing I suspect. Chauvin is answerable for the death and it is exacerbated by his complete lack of humanitarian remorse.

  6. What is the most common cause of death among Junkies?
    It is time.

    Only Keith Richards is rich enough to live a long life. The rest aren’t “so lucky”.

    1. You put alcoholics in that category, buddy boy, or is that different ’cause reasons?

      1. I have witnessed the tragedy of someone drinking themselves to death. 2-3 years will do it.

        1. Yup. Asceites and Cirrhosis is a horrible way to go.

          1. As my Organic Chem proff use to say there two types of alcohol. If you drink one it will kill you, if you drink the other it will kill you quickly.

            1. But see, that mild drinkers may live longer than either teetotalers or heavy drinkers. https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/179/9/1049/2739140

              Now, it’s difficult to tease out why this may be so. Teetotalers may have been told to abstain for medical reasons, and those reasons may lead them to die sooner anyway, with or without booze. And the dose to assist longevity is, IIRC, fairly small. Like 0.5-1 drink a day. It’s easy to overdo it.

              Contrast with methanol consumption…

              1. Keeps the arteries clean at light levels which may be 1-2 drinks per day. Red wine in particular.

                Doctors have known this for years. I remember my grandfather who had vascular problems drinking a glass of red wine every night on doctors orders.

        2. Yep.

        3. Hahaha! I hope it was a close loved one Chuck!

          Hahaha! Whoever it was was a little bitch who couldn’t handle their booze.

          If they were close to you they were a goddamn piece of shit. The world is a better place without them.

          Hahahaha! That made my night!

          1. Hahahaha! That made my night!

            I sincerely hope that you are not so fucking wretched a human that this is a serious statement. If it is, you need to get off the internet and reconcile your approach to life and learn some empathy.

            1. If he was a buddy or relative of Chuck they were probably a terrible person.

              Fuck em.

              Hahaha! It’s still cracking me up! Hahaha, mercy!

              1. KARen is trash, Exhibit A.

                1. You’re a Mormon loving fascist

                  1. Please troll somewhere else.

      2. I worked with a lot of functioning alcoholics in the past. Have you ever seen a Junkie hold a job and function well? I have not. It is highly unusual.

        1. James Taylor comes to mind. Other creative types. I might’ve said Hermann Goering, were it not for witness accounts that he got a hell of a lot brighter once the Nuremberg authorities detoxed him off morphine.

          I’d say opiate addiction does negatively correlate to a person’s ability to hold a job, or be a contributing member of society though. Even if we got zapped overnight into Libertopia, and you could buy patches out of vending machines.

      3. There are alcoholics and there are heavy drinkers. Winston Churchill was one of the latter but it never seemed to be a problem.

        I asked a doctor friend why some drinkers get cirrhosis and others don’t he said “well when you get all of yours calories from vodka that’s what happens”. Nutrition certainly plays a role which makes sense when you consider what the liver does and there are probably genetic factors. Same for the pancreas.

        Churchill was a big eater. Starting each day with a big English breakfast, whiskey and a cigar. He lived to 90.

    2. Richards is a a zombie – it’s the only explanation.

  7. To prove causation, the prosecution need only persuade the jury that Floyd would not have died if Chauvin had not committed that assault.

    Serious question: Could the prosecution enlist a disinterested party to volunteer for having xir neck kneed upon for ten minutes?

    1. That would be a ballsy move.

  8. Why do we even need a trial? We have the video.

    1. Haha. We don’t. Video speaks for itself. All I need is 10 minutes to decide: Guilty.

      1. All I need is 10 minutes to decide:

        And that’s why you are a giant asshole.

        Ignore the first 10 minutes of the 20 minute encounter and you miss the guy squeezing out the window of a squad car and mewling that he can’t breathe with nobody touching him. Behavior that was consistent right up until he became unresponsive. The guy wasn’t choked out.

        Chauvin is an asshole and deserves jail time for unnecessary force and obstructing aid, but he didn’t cause Floyd’s lungs to swell up or stop his heart which was the cause of death.

        Philando Castile was murdered by a terrified man screaming inconsistent orders at him. That was the travesty of justice worth protesting until remedied.

        1. We know you don’t care when blacks are murdered Chuck.

          Racist asshole.

          Hahaha I’m still cracking up about someone you know dying from being a bitch who can’t handle their booze.

        2. Philando was the guy who was high with kids in the car. The kid your thinking of, who got shot while crawling on the floor in board shorts and had the gall to pull them up when they were falling off and got shot in the face for it was WHITE.

          His life doesn’t matter.

          1. Daniel Shaver, 26 year old white male and father. The cop that executed him got retirement for PTSD with a $2500 a month pension. George Floyd degenerate scumbag gets memorialized and his family gets rich.

            1. Cops love playing Simon Says, and hate it when they lose.

              Wrong color for the victim. Atatiana Johnson was the right color, but couldn’t inspire enough division.

              Division, with widespread societal chaos, is the point. Floyd provided that.

              1. My view is that a high percentage of cops are likely to violate any citizen’s rights they come into contact with. Cops then come into contact with black people at a far higher rate than white people, for reasons ranging from socioeconomic, historic redlining and ‘ghettoization’, an actual higher rate of certain types of crime among the young, male, black population, and last (and least, imo), individually racist cops.

                I have also known cops who have become fairly racist only after their police service started. Not like “White people are superior genetically” type of racism, but more like “Every other criminal I meet is black. Blacks are bad.” kind of racism. Which is wrong and harmful for society, but I can see how this attitude develops. You see the same things in the lower ranks in war. They start to hate the entire population. Being on guard all the time, fighting people who look a certain way over and over, is going to make some feelings.

        3. Chuck

          “ he didn’t cause Floyd’s lungs to swell up or stop his heart which was the cause of death.”

          I can’t get the full article. This is the abstract from a JAMA article I found.

          “Acute fulminating pulmonary edema developed in three patients after acute airway obstruction secondary to tumor, strangulation, and interrupted hanging (one case each). The common etiologic factor was vigorous inspiratory effort against a totally obstructed upper airway. Acute pulmonary edema followed the event in minutes to hours and required ventilatory assistance to maintain oxygenation. All patients eventually responded to fluid restriction, diuretics, and steroids. One case was complicated by aspiration of gastric contents following respiratory failure.

          To our knowledge, this condition is previously unreported in English literature. We presume that the pathogenesis is related to alveolar and capillary damage, induced by the severe negative pressure generated by attempting to inspire against the closed upper airway.“

          He also is prone with his hands locked behind his back on the pavement. His head and body down on the pavement. He can’t move his neck. Airway and major vessels compressed. Not a good position for breathing.

          The pathogenesis is likely this. Pulmonary edema – increased work of breathing – Hypoxia and lactic acidosis – decreased cardiac return – decreased oxygen to the heart muscle – decreased brain function ( he is no longer responsive and loses bladder control as we saw, respiration is controlled by the brain) – complete respiratory failure – cardiac arrest.

          1. The common etiologic factor was vigorous inspiratory effort against a totally obstructed upper airway.

            The video does not show Chauvin compressing his airway. The fact that the guy was still talking means his airway, even if compromised, was without question not totally obstructed. I don’t claim to be a doctor, but I understand plain language. You have presented a very good argument that Chauvin’s knee did not cause his death at all.

            1. You only have a problem with cops if they go after your fascist pals Chuck.

              You’re a racist piece of shit.

              Floyd wasn’t perfect but he was 100x the man you were.

              Racist mormon piece of goddamn shit.

    2. Because the video doesnt show Floyd’s toxicology report with a fatal level of opioids in his bloodstream. The video doesnt show that Chauvin was using the precise knee on neck technique taught in Minneapolis police training manuals. Like it or not, Chauvin has a defense and its that Floyd very possibly died of a drug overdose rather than as a result of a knee on his neck.

      1. Chauvin was the ‘tipping point’ factor. Floyd was compromised, and Chauvin himself established he “knew” Floyd was on something based on his behavior. Chavin held Floyd for far too long for no good reason. Protocol should have put Floyd, once subdued, in the squad car and taken him in for booking and medical assessment, not held him in the street kneeling on his neck.

  9. Chauvin’s lawyers are likely to argue that use of force is accepted as a means of stopping an intoxicated arrestee from hurting himself or others. It doesn’t help that the MPD training manual at the time seems to have included Chauvin’s hold as a non-lethal and accepted restraint.

    I’ve also seen some people arguing that Floyd was kicking at the officers early in the takedown.

    Ultimately, though, I think Chauvin still loses – in hindsight, it obviously would have been better to turn Floyd on his side or let him sit up and assume they could probably restrain him again before he hurt himself or someone else, and even the MPD manual suggests putting a restrained suspect on his side to avoid ED.

    1. “It doesn’t help that the MPD training manual at the time seems to have included Chauvin’s hold as a non-lethal and accepted restraint.”

      https://spectator.org/george-floyd-police-training-minneapolis/

      1. Does the training manual instruct cops to remain in that position until after the suspect’s pulse has stopped? Here, it seems to indicate that once the suspect is in handcuffs they should be turned on their side so they can get air, something Chauvin refused to do more than once.

        1. he DID put him on his side. and chauvin did not have his neck on george floyd’s carotid. the neck restraint didnt contribute to his death in the slightest.

          1. Once they are cuffed, you take them in. You don’t press them into the asphalt.

    2. I’ve also seen some people arguing that Floyd was kicking at the officers early in the takedown.

      It’s on the video captured by the bodycams of the police. He fought tooth and nail against being placed in the back of the cruiser and kicked his way out of the backseat from the rear driver side door through the rear passenger passenger door; handcuffed and saying he was claustrophobic and couldn’t breathe. That was why they had him out of the cruiser and face down on the street

      1. Most bad guys put up a fight to keep from being arrested. HIGH bad actors on drugs more often put up a fight. Happens every day in police world. Arrest ’em if you have probable cause, cuff ’em, load ’em, take them to jail, and be done with it. Don’t hang in the street displaying your jaded lack of humanity for all to videotape.

  10. It went from “he killed Floyd” to “he didn’t stop him from overdosing.” This is White Knight/Brian Sicknick caliber slinking away.

    1. If Chauvin’s actions were unreasonable and they caused the death, then he’s guilty (the specific crime depends on his intent and knowledge).

      I think it’s definitely possible that the stress of being restrained and in pain pushed Floyd over the edge – if so, the question is when it happened, and whether Chauvin’s actions up to that point were reasonable.

      As I said just above, I suspect most juries are going to find that not letting a handcuffed suspect turn on his side once he stopped resistance is unreasonable, even if he’s gigantic and high.

      1. I think it’s definitely possible that the stress of being restrained and in pain pushed Floyd over the edge …

        Fortunately, we do not yet convict people of crimes in this country on the ground that it is “definitely possible.”

        If it is “possible” then that means there is a reasonable doubt as to possibility — in which case the verdict should be not guilty.

        This fly by the seat of your pants approach to criminal prosecutions is a joke. Too much emoting. Too much opinion unrestrained by the facts. Too much bullshit.

        1. Sure – the trial hasn’t gotten to medical evidence yet, and it will be up to the jury to decide whether there is reasonable doubt over the cause of death.

          1. I can’t see there not being reasonable doubt. If you have to competing autopsy reports, both of which are equally plausible, both of which come to opposing conclusions, there should be an acquittal.

            1. Lawyers providing analysis of the trial said this afternoon that in Minnesota the prosecution need only show that the knee on the neck substantively contributed to his death while in custody. IANAL, so I don’t know but ‘reasonable doubt’ is probably much more difficult for the defense to establish than the ‘substantively contributed’ bar the prosecution needs to meet.

              1. They would need to show beyond a reasonable doubt that the knee substantively contributed to his death.

                Everything is reasonable doubt. Everything. I cannot stress that enough. Everything. Do not lose sight of that burden of proof.

                Every element has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Reasonable? Beyond a reasonable doubt. Substantive? Beyond a reasonable doubt. Contributed? Beyond a reasonable doubt. There is no lesser standard and anyone telling you different is full of shit.

                1. Everything is reasonable doubt.

                  No, everything is *doubt*, both reasonable and unreasonable. There is also such a thing as “unreasonable doubt”.

              2. I’ll square this, though I too, am not a lawyer (and not being familiar with Minnesota law or the jury charge here): the prosecution must establish each element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. It sounds like one of those elements is that Chauvin’s conduct must have substantively contributed to Floyd’s death.

                Then we can argue about what does “substantively contributed” mean…

                1. What I know about ‘What Is The Law?’ stops after “No Spill Blood” so I am curious to see how this plays out.

                  1. Oh, though I normally will say that criminal juries try their best to parse this stuff, the jury here is trying not to fucking die at the hands of White Knight’s fellow travelers.

                    I’ll be surprised if Chauvin is acquitted at trial on the state charges, though I think it should happen. Maybe he gets acquitted on appeal? I don’t have a great faith in the rule of law in the US right now. Neither should you.

                2. “Then we can argue about what does “substantively contributed” mean…”

                  The fact is that George Floyd would have been alive after the fact had Chauvin not knelt on his neck for the time he did. So yes he contributed substantively. There is really no getting away from that fact.

                  1. If Chauvin was uninvolved, he was going to die regardless based on the toxicology report. Likely within an hour or two.

                    1. He died because Chauvin knelt on his neck. By your logic there is no murder because we are all going to die of something.

                  2. the neck restraint didnt contribute to his death at all. george floyd said he couldnt breathe multiple times before he was on the ground and he was foaming at the mouth. and the autopsy revealed pulmonary edema.

        2. Too much inhumanity. The phrase is ‘Protect and Serve’, not ‘punish what you find reprehensible’ to the point of (albeit unintentional) execution. Chauvin didn’t set out to kill Floyd – but he did.

      2. That’s not accurate. Reasonable v unreasonable isn’t necessarily the deciding factor here. The prosecution needs to establish (in the face of a bad looking toxicology report) that Floyd died because of a knee on his neck and not a drug overdose. From that point, the prosecution needs to establish intent. Whether Chauvin’s actions were reasonable or not might help establish intent but he’s not being tried on the reasonableness of his restraint technique (which was taught in the MPD manual).

    2. Citation needed!

      Two citations needed!

      Multiple citations from trusted sources from a list I provide you needed!

    3. if you think he overdosed on fentanyl I’m sorry to tell you that you are telling on yourself. you clearly don’t have background in drug overdoses, nor did you do any relevant research to proclaim an opinion like this so brazenly.

      George Floyd died because Derek Chauvin put his knee on his windpipe for 9 minutes and 29 seconds.

      If you are making disparaging remarks, yr letting yr overall political agenda get in the way of what yr (supposed Libertarian) philosophy should be….

      This was a complete overreach from an increasingly militarized police force.

      1. I think Chauvin gets convicted, but as far as I know, he didn’t put his knee “on [Floyd’s windpipe” – he put in on the side of Floyd’s neck.

      2. Retard of the Day award goes to you, sir.

        1. lol anyone with any experience with overdoses will tell you that he wasn’t about to overdose on drugs.

          must be nice to have a world view where yr the authority for things yr absolutely ignorant about.

          1. anyone with any experience with overdoses

            And I suppose that’s you, isn’t it?

            1. So what if it is him? People can change. That’s sort of the problem with letting cops kill criminal suspects on a whim.

              1. Geiger thinks drug users [but probably not alcoholics] deserve to be murdered by the State, so I imagine he just wants to add him to the list.

                1. Nice sock White Knight.

              2. He’s full of shit, that’s so what.

          2. “Yr?” You can’t even spell, and we’re supposed to take your expertise on opiate overdoses on faith? Floyd had lungs that were multiples of the size of a healthy male his age and size. From pulmonary edema, which is a symptom of overdosing from fentanyl. See, for example, this study detailing the grossly negligent death of a 2 year old from fentanyl overdose.
            https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26055040/
            Transdermal patches make shitty band-aids…

            Bring up a cite or two. Maybe you’ll be believable then.

      3. He had a blood concentration of fentanyl sufficient to fall in the range of anaesthesia. Source: https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/fentanyl_en

        Which means he wasn’t breathing, absent some anesthesiologist doing it for him. And getting past the pulmonary edema he was experiencing.

        This magic knee that prevented Floyd from breathing, somehow did it without crushing or bruising the tissues in and around the airway. Floyd killed Floyd.

        1. An EMT offered her assistance in helping Floyd. She was told to fuck off. Chauvin kept the knee on the neck. Now, he’s paying the price. Sucks to be him, huh.

          1. Was she in uniform? If some random walks up and starts demanding to interfere with an arrest, claiming they’re a medical professional, I’d have told her to fuck off, if I didn’t recognize her. If she was in uniform, when making the claims, then that’s a good piece of evidence for reckless disregard for the risk of Floyd dying.

          2. she was off duty and presented no verification that she was a firefighter.

        2. If there was no bruising found, I can’t see how any rational person could determine beyond reasonable doubt that Chauvin caused Floyd’s death.
          Unless the argument were that he unreasonably denied/prevented medical attention from reaching Floyd.

          1. *rational person in the vacuum of the facts at issue in the trial.
            A rational person could certainly determine that their own life is at risk of being doxxed/harassed/assaulted/murdered acting in accord with their conscience, thus choose to render a verdict in accordance with mob intimidation.

          2. But don’t we have testimony by a paramedic that they couldn’t get close enough to Floyd because of the hostile, but loving, mob… I mean crowd?

      4. Chauvin put his knee on his windpipe

        When exactly did that happen? His knee is clearly not on his windpipe in all of the video I saw and that would directly contradict every coroners report.

        strawmandawg is not just a handle, it’s a way of life.

        1. Admit it Chuck. You’re glad a black guy died you racist piece of shit. haha

          1. If we’re being honest here, almost everyone would have much rather it had been you instead of Floyd.

      5. knee on his windpipe

        Nope. If that were so, Floyd wouldn’t have been able to talk.

        -jcr

        1. When you hear the medical experts you will find that is not true.

      6. Except neither of the autopsies shows any evidence of his knee on his windpipe, generally speaking Chauvin would have to be facing the OTHER way for that to occur. Also knee to the back of the neck in that position doesn’t ashyxiate you, it is uncomfortable as hell, but Chauvin was NOT obstructed from what I can see on account of him talking up a storm and screaming (until he didn’t). You strangle someone for 9 minutes there is a hell of a lot more physical evidence than I have seen in either autopsy.

        Now you COULD argue that the weight of the cop along with everything else made it harder to breath in general, and that mixed with the cocktail in his blood, the 90% clogged artery, the flooding lungs, and the rest is what pushed him over the edge. That’s what the prosecutors are going to try and prove.

        1. Heh. “Assisted positional asphyxia”. Not impossible, I suppose.

      7. Floyd had, by varying estimates, either double or triple a fatal dose of various opioids in his blood toxicology report. He had also OD’d two months prior and then went for a period of sobriety before going back to using in May. This was established during the trial yesterday. If you have any supporting evidence to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that the opioids in his blood stream did not cause his death, please share them.

      8. No, this is one soulless individual pissed at a junkie for being a pain in the arse.

    4. Dude had an EMT offering her assistance. He shut her down. So, yeah, anything that arises from that is pretty much his own fucking fault. You’d better hope the jury ignores that little fact.

      1. And he knows she is an EMT how? Someone in street clothes walks up to the crime scene and proclaims to be an EMT and it turns out they were not an EMT what happens then?

        You get all kinds of Lookie Lous at any crime/medical scene.

        Worth Noting: Everyone here is employing hindsight which I think skews their opinion whether they think the officer is guilty or not.

        1. Not to mention there was an angry crowd forming, for good reason, but they were trying to not let that get out of control.

  11. The reason why the police let George Floyd out of the police car (after he repeatedly said “I can’ breathe) and put him on the ground was because they correctly thought he was overdosing and/or experiencing a medical emergency.

    1. In the video, he also requests that he be allowed to lay down.

      1. He was complaining about not being able to breathe when they were talking to him in the back seat of the squad car, too. Frankly, from what I have seen, it is entirely unclear that Floyd was even killed as opposed to simply dying from preexisting cardiopulmonary distress. If there is reasonable doubt at to him even being killed, all the other bullshit about neck restraints, etc., is irrelevant.

      2. He lost the opportunity to submit requests when he stopped cooperating by resisting being placed in the police cruiser. It isn’t like he was cooperating and then said “officer, I am having trouble breathing. Can I be allowed to lay down on the sidewalk whilst you summon paramedics?”

        1. “It’s Floyd’s fault because he wasn’t being calmer about dying.”

          1. Maybe St. George shouldn’t have shoved enough fentanyl in his mouth to kill a fucking horse.

            1. He told the cops he had been “hooping”. That is a pretty risky behavior, as it gets the drugs into the bloodstream very quickly.

              He was foaming at the mouth, which is a strong indicator of fentanyl overdose. Also breathing problems and irrational fear.

              After he cut his head from banging it on the car window, the cops called for medical assistance. They called dispatch to check on and hurry up the ambulance as they put him on the ground.
              They put him on the ground because he kept asking them to do so-
              “I want to lay on the ground. I want to lay on the ground. I want to lay on the ground!”
              “I want to lay on the ground! I’m going down, I’m going down, I’m going down.”

        2. Being polite isn’t mentioned in the statutes. When you are HIGH on drugs, in an excited paranoid state AND being arrested, you are not reasonable. The sane cannot expect the temporarily insane to act in a sane manner.

  12. I’m starting to feel a little snookered about this whole thing.

    There’s no way in hell that anyone should be kneeling on somebody’s neck, but was it murder? Probably not.

    1. I’ve watched the video several times and Floyd was able to freely move and maneuver his head and neck the entire time he was being restrained. For this reason alone I find it hard to buy into the notion that Chauvin was “crushing” Floyd’s neck.

    2. The retired MPD sergeant on the witness stand said that the kneeling should have stopped once they had him on the ground.

      Not a murder but almost by definition manslaughter.

      1. Meh. That can still cost Chauvin a lot of years. He’s not so young, anymore. I don’t know about you, but if I was him, the idea of “just getting manslaughter” wouldn’t comfort me much.

        1. Either way he is fucked, but the time for a manslaughter charge will be less than that for murder; especially as he will probably get the max sentence for whichever he is convicted of

          1. Minnesota has a 15 year maximum for voluntary manslaughter, a 25 year maximum for third degree murder, and a 40 year maximum for second degree murder. I have a hard time believing a judge would give the maximum sentence for either of the murder charges, since the murder cases are so weak. It’s more likely that they (or the appeals court) would throw out a murder conviction in a post-trial judgment.

            1. Today they had Chauvin’s supervisor testify that he should have stopped the restraint once he was cuffed and on the ground. Tomorrow they will have the MPD Chief Of Police on the witness stand repeating the same.

              Combine all this with the Paramedic’s testimony and video of the paramedics having to ask Chauvin to get off the body to load on the gurney and there is nothing but bad optics to say the least.

              I have no idea whether or not the judge will think that the actions of the police officer elicited the public’s sense of outrage….but if it does, I can definitely see the potential for that to be the punishment. But again, what I don’t know about the law could fill volumes of case history

      2. ESPECIALLY if it all comes down to a 10 minute window. 10 minutes. All the time in the world to get up and change tactics. He didn’t. If he goes down for this, regardless of the charge, you just know that’s gonna get to him. The sheer weight of his own immense stupidity will haunt him forever.

        1. Yes, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that given the chance, the officer handles things much differently.

          1. “…given the chance, the officer handles things much differently.”

            It’s called smiling and waving.

            1. Call it a ham sandwich….it’s like discussing what happens if Germany doesn’t over-engineer their armored fighting vehicles prior to and during WW2: Given the chance…..

              1. Really, it’s like discussing what happened if the Germans decided to burn about 50 to 70,000 of their dudes, and overrun the Dunkirk pocket. That probably kicks Churchill out (at least Lord Halifax was hoping it would). Hard to blame the British citizenry for being pissed at eating a third of a million casualties, and it was Churchill’s idea to be there.

                Which means armistice with Britain, and no more sea blockade of Nazi Germany. As I hope US behavior recently has demonstrated, the US would have gleefully traded with the Nazis. To, through, and beyond Reinhardt. Nazi trade likely means the US watches as Germany and the Soviet Union try to kill each other. I think the Nazis win.

                1. Well put, and an interesting topic away from Reason’s comments section

      3. Somebody needs to fix their training materials then.

        If the cops were following how they were trained to deal with this type of suspect, then it’s pretty damned hard to claim they were recklessly disregarding the risk of Floyd dying or suffering permanent harm. Which you need to show for manslaughter to apply.

        I’ve been consistent in saying that criminally negligent homicide might apply, provided you can establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the cops’ actions were the legal cause of Floyd’s death. (As well as establish the police failed to act as reasonably prudent officers would in that situation.) The lack of physical damage shown in the autopsy, and the large amount of fentanyl in Floyd’s blood, along with all the other shit, makes that difficult to show.

        1. I think he put himself in mortal danger with the exertion of resisting being put in the cruiser after swallowing his fucking stash. He was already Mayor McComorbidity as the autopsy shows.

          As a random blowhard, I think where Chauvin and the other officers are at fault is the negligent stewardship of Floyd’s health while in their custody. But George Floyd put himself in that situation and made everything worse by escalating it until he suffered the consequences

          1. “I think he put himself in mortal danger with the exertion of resisting being put in the cruiser after swallowing his fucking stash. He was already Mayor McComorbidity as the autopsy shows.”

            Plus that the pills he took, evidently had a stimulant in them as well as the fentanyl. Not surprising, since I doubt the big dummy could’ve even spelled River Phoenix or John Belushi, never mind knew who they were.

            Further, wasn’t there testimony that Floyd had been trying to get clean in the weeks/months prior to the incident? While opiate addicts can establish impressive tolerances to their drug, tolerance fades away readily. It’s almost a stereotype that former heavy opiate users, relapsing, will use a significant portion of the dose they used to use, and promptly OD. Which means the 11 ng/ml in Floyd’s blood would’ve acted on him the same way it would act on you or me, and not a heavy opiate user. The massive pulmonary edema—a symptom of fentanyl overdose—that his lungs exhibited at autopsy, would support that.

        2. The knee on the back of the neck is supposed to be a mild hold technique that does the least amount of harm while subduing someone.

        3. His supervisor testified that he did not follow procedure. Not in initiating but subsequently.

          Pleoger said all police officers are trained that if a suspect is restrained with handcuffs on the ground, they should be turned on to their side as soon as possible because of the danger of “positional asphyxia”.

          1. he was on his side. and pleoger admitted that he never performed a formal review of the entire incident.

      4. If the goal is to put Chauvin in jail, charging him correctly would help achieve it. Swinging for the fences could get him off.

      5. I think you missed something here.

    3. No – I don’t suspect malice aforethought. But Floyd died in the care, custody, and control of Chauvin while under the influence of illegal drugs. Chauvin was not assisting – he exacerbated the situation and for that, he is answerable. Chauvin in his official capacity is supposed to be part of solution, not a contributor to the problem.

  13. What Chauvin did to Floyd reflected what the socialists did to the country: they held us down and asphyxiated the economy while casually pretending it was necessary. Of course you’ll say, “My state was never closed you idiot.” However many parts of the country suffered devastating lockdowns and when we complained they said, “Your ignorance will get people killed.” And, “You can restart a business, you can’t bring someone back to life.” And if we pointed out that obesity was a greater threat than the virus, they responded cavalierly, “Just set up a gym in your garage.”

    Regardless, the country is now $6 trillion deeper in debt because of the economic destruction. Not to mention widespread educational, emotional, health and financial ruin.

    But after Floyd’s death, the country came back to life. People poured into the streets by the millions to demonstrate. (Thus exposing the hypocrisy of the left’s ‘super spreader event’ hysteria.) We could breath again. I’m not saying Chauvin did it consciously, but it wasn’t entirely uninentional either. He will be remembered as a hero for this reason.

    1. That is an idiotic statement which has no relevance to this case. It is not a political or business commerce issue.

      Floyd is not a martyr – he’s merely one more sad junkie who met a premature death. Chauvin, I suspect, will be a victim of his own inhumanity and will serve time in jail for a second degree murder charge. Abysmal decision making by both men and clearly a lack of critical thinking.

  14. Was Chauvin guilty of “something”? Probably so. Certainly in a generally ethical sense he did something we should all consider wrong… he did not tend to the well being of someone in his charge. When the state took control of Floyd, the state became responsible for caring for him. The fact that they did not roll him, check his complaints about breathing, or refused to check in on his status for almost 10 minutes while he was claiming that he was in distress… that, surely, has to be covered somewhere by some law. If not… the law is a joke.

    BUT WITH THAT SAID… those aren’t the charges Chauvin is facing. Based on the charges he is facing, I have a hard time convicting. He MIGHT have caused the death. He MIGHT NOT have due to the drugs. Would another person survive the restraint had they not been intoxicated? If so, how can Chauvin be said to have intentionally killed anyone? The doubts are reasonable… even if the otherwise unknown to us reality of it is that he did murder Floyd. And that doubt means not guilty on these charges (certainly on the 2nd Degree charge, quite possibly on the 3rd).

    1. FWIW, Minnesota allows juries to convict on lesser charges. If Ellison is smart, he’ll ask for an instruction that the jury can convict on voluntary or involuntary manslaughter. In fact, he probably has to in order for any conviction to withstand appeal, as both of the murder cases are incredibly weak.

    2. Seems to me, if I’m the defense, I need only put a sober person in the knee on neck position for 9 minutes without them dying to prove that Chauvin’s actions aren’t what killed Floyd. The other day I saw Steven Crowder let one of his interns put their knee on his neck for 2-3 minutes. He was talking and moving his head the whole time and was adamant he could breathe just fine. I’m wondering if that video gives the defense any ideas to try and demonstrate that a person can be placed in that position for 9 minutes, or even longer without asphyxiating. If they can do that it seems murder or even manslaughter fall apart as charges. Maybe the prosecution would the argue that, in some other way, Chauvin’s actions prevented Floyd from getting the medical care he needed to avoid dying from his OD.

      When I first saw the video, I thought Chauvin was a murderer. Now considering the toxicology report on Floyd and the MPD training manual with the same knee on neck position, I’m not so sure Chauvin gets thrown in jail.

  15. “The evidence indicates that Floyd had ingested black-market “Percocet” tablets that contained fentanyl and methamphetamine, and an autopsy report from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Office said both drugs were detected in his blood.”

    The question is how much fentanyl was in his system and whether there was enough to kill him.

    According to George Floyd’s autopsy report, the concentration of fentanyl in George Floyd’s body was 11 ng/mL.

    https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf

    A study from the National Institute of Health gives the following median concentrations in groups of patients who died of a fentanyl overdose:

    —-19 fentanyl fatalities in south western Virginia (USA): median 18 ng/mL

    —-101 fentanyl deaths in Wayne county, Michigan: median 20 ng/mL

    —-Montgomery county, Ohio, 56 cases without concomitant use of heroin or cocaine: median 9 ng/mL

    —-Large series of fentanyl fatalities in Florida (USA): median 9.7 ng/mL

    We’re limited to one link per post, so the link for that NIH study will follow this post.

    People can and do survive the levels of fentanyl in Floyd’s system, and the median concentration was higher in some of the people that died, in that study, than it was in George Floyd. That being said, it appears George Floyd had a high enough concentration of fentanyl in his system to kill him without any assistance from the police. After all, lots of people in that study died with lower concentrations than George Floyd had in his system, too.

    It’s a good thing they have a second degree manslaughter charge against him, if the prosecutors want a conviction, which doesn’t require the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant killed George Floyd intentionally. I wouldn’t bet on a jury to convict a cop for intentionally killing someone, when the victim may or may not have died because of all the fentanyl in his system. That’s what reasonable doubt looks like to more than one out of twelve people.

    It’s my understanding that Floyd saying he was having a hard time breathing is consistent with a fentanyl overdose, too. A jury is like a box of chocolates, but we’re staring reasonable doubt in the face in regards to the murder charges. If they only manage to convict him of manslaughter, expect the Biden administration to come after Chauvin on federal charges–especially if they can drag out the trial until the midterms.

    1. Frankly, I do not even see how the jury can convict on the second degree manslaughter charge.

      To convict Chauvin of second-degree manslaughter prosecutors will need to prove that Chauvin caused Floyd’s death by “culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another.”

      If Chauvin was following training protocol, and doing everything he was taught to do, the restraint was not unreasonable, and certainly cannot be characterized as consciously taking a chance of causing death or great bodily harm.

      “This is how I was taught to restrain people and have done it a hundred times, with nobody ever dying” seems like a complete defense.

      1. People rationalize what they want to see happen, and when the jurors watch the video, they’ll want the defendant to pay. I just think that even an emotional jury is likely to convict him of the charge that takes an overdose of fentanyl into consideration. When they’re rationalizing, they won’t have to ignore the fentanyl on the manslaughter charge.

        1. You are probably right.

        2. I think a jury that doesn’t want their houses burned down will convict irrespective of just about anything else.

          1. Then we owe it to the jurors to jail or kill the attackers at any cost. What would killing jurors do? It would undermine our entire system. If that happens, Floyd’s newly rich family is toast. Eye for and eye, right?
            I have lived in countries without courts. It is not pleasant. Divorces were settled with RPGs and AK-47s.

            1. Well, we have activists taking their pictures in court. A conviction will likely be overturned on that alone.

              1. I do not share your faith in that. See my comment above about expecting the rule of law to still be around.

                In a perfect world, it would be witness intimidation, the activist would go to jail, and the people giving the activist their orders would go up on conspiracy charges. Instead, we have this.

            2. I’m just predicting, not advocating.

              And I expect that such attacks would get punished just about as heavily as the riots were. Another prediction, not advocacy, BTW.

            3. We have several groups with the stated goal of undermining the entire system.
              The advocate for such things because they have unrealistic and utopian ideas about how things would be when the system crashes down.
              I think it is a basic problem of them believing that civilization is keeping us from utopia, where most of us know better.

        3. Ken you can’t diagnose an overdose from a blood level and a Google search. It is a clinical diagnosis. One person can tolerate more than another and all drugs especially opiates act differently in different individuals.

          Even in medical use you may need to use 2-3x as much in one person than another to get the same effect even if both of them never use drugs.

          1. The grossly excessive weight of his lung tissue (due to pulmonary edema), plus the foaming at Floyd’s mouth, suggest incipient fentanyl overdose, no? Particularly given his blood concentration of fentanyl—sufficient for anesthesia for a normal adult, per the cite I listed upthread—as well as pharmacological significant concentrations of methamphetamine and its metabolites.

            In short, the physiological evidence from the autopsy, plus his behavior during the arrest, suggest he took a speedball by mouth, after having avoided opiates for some time, and gave himself a deadly overdose.

          2. While a heavy drug user needs increasing levels of a drug to get the same high, their resistance to overdose does not follow resistance to intoxication in a predictable, linear fashion.

      2. If it’s about staying on his neck afterwards, are we charging for desecration of a corpse?

    2. They have a charge of unintentional second degree murder. None of the charges requires proof of intent.

    3. He also was a chronic opioid user. You develop tolerance and chronic users can and will use much higher doses.

      Overdoses as you point out can be treated and police carry naloxone.

      Overdose is a clinical diagnosis not a number. The blood concentration varies from one person to another.

      People are clutching at straws when they bring this up. We all saw what happened.

      1. “Overdose is a clinical diagnosis not a number.”

        I addressed this in multiple ways in my original comment.

        The fact is that plenty of people have survived higher concentrations of fentanyl than George Floyd had in his system, and the fact is that plenty of people have died with lower concentrations of fentanyl than George Floyd had in his system.

        And the standard for conviction isn’t a clinical diagnosis. The standard is reasonable doubt–rather than metaphysical certitude. A jury is like a box of chocolates in that you never know what you’re gonna get.

        Are you picking a side and then looking for a rationalization? Because unless you’re a lawyer taking whatever case you’re assigned or unless you pulled a random topic to defend out of a hat on the debate team, that’s a bullshit way to deal with the world.

        Under normal circumstances, they should have a hard time convicting someone of murder beyond a reasonable doubt when the dead man had what may have been a lethal concentration of fentanyl in his system.

        And that’s regardless of the particulars in this case.

        1. You say that now after your Wikipedia post about blood levels.

          What a dodge. May have been. Yeah it was a coincidence. He was well enough to struggle against his arrest, drive a car before it, walk and talk before the police killed him. In nine minutes he was dead.

          Nobody with any background in overdose would buy that for a second. Police arrest drunks and intoxicated people all the time. If that is all the defense they have it is the weakest I have ever heard.

      2. george floyds fiancee said that he had stopped taking opioids for a few months and started again only two weeks before the incident. undercuts the argument that an overdose was unlikely

    4. Chauvin didn’t kill Floyd INTENTIONALLY. No LEO in his right mind kills a junkie they have under control, down on the ground, with back up, and cuffed in broad daylight in full view of the public. Floyd was the one on drugs with impaired judgement, not Chauvin.

  16. Sullum is just flat out wrong in how he portrays the law regarding homicide. In Minnesota, felony murder is second degree murder. Most states say assault can’t be the felony that underlies the felony murder charge. Minnesota is (as far as I know) the only one that doesn’t have this rule (the so-called merger rule). Even so, there still has to have been intent to commit the underlying assault. Hard to prove that when the alleged assault was standard Minneapolis police procedure. The death also has to occur in furtherance of the felony. Really hard to say that a death is in furtherance of an assault (which is why almost every other jurisdiction has the merger rule). And this is before the issues of factual and legal causation. In short, Sullum’s presentation of the legal tests for felony murder is sorely lacking. His factual presentation is even worse.

    1. He’s also wrong on third degree murder (depraved heart murder). First, depraved heart murder must be a death that occurs as a result of a callous disregard for public safety, not the safety of any particular person. Second, it’s hard to argue that Chauvin’s actions bear a substantial risk to human life. Again, this was standard procedure in Minneapolis. Moreover, these actions have been used hundreds of times by police officers and not caused death. Really hard to prove a substantial risk when most end up just fine. Again, this is aside from the massive factual and legal causation issues.

      1. There’s a good case for voluntary or involuntary manslaughter here. Take the win. Voluntary manslaughter would still put Chauvin away for up to 15 years. It’s overcharging that lets police get off without punishment. Not only that, but the rule of law is supposed to matter more than emotions. No matter how enraged Sullum is over Floyd’s death, it doesn’t change the legal standard for 2nd and 3rd degree murder.

        1. Out of curiosity what how much time would involuntary manslaughter prescribe for prison time?

          1. 10 years maximum.

            1. What’s the required mens rea for invol manslaughter in MN? I had thought it was recklessness, which as I keep writing in these threads, I don’t think the prosecution can show. Is it a lesser mental state?

              Thanks again; I was hoping you’d show up to this thread. Your point on merger was interesting, when we were talking about this a few months ago.

              1. Yep. The voluntary manslaughter law in Minnesota only requires that the defendant commit an assault and that death be reasonably foreseeable. Nebulous enough proximate cause-type language that an appeals court is probably going to let whatever the trial court does stand. Paragraph (2) in the link below.

                https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.20

                1. “The death was reasonably foreseeable?” What the fuck. I hope that’s moderated by case law, not that I have time to dig through it.

                  That’s a negligence standard for giving someone medical bills and nominal pain and suffering. Not for depriving someone of liberty for 10 years. The MPC got a lot right when the drafters took a look at criminal law.

                  I did take a look at the statute you cited. And others. How does 609.06(1)(i) not excuse the initial assault the manslaughter elements are using to bootstrap assault to manslaughter? It’s not an assault if the force is used to “effect a lawful arrest.”

                  Again, something probably very easy to discern in judicial opinions, that I’m not going to pore over.

      2. It remains that Floyd died in Chauvin’s custody, though. “Most” who end up “fine” have no bearing individual to individual in these circumstances. Chauvin knew or should have known Floyd was on drugs which places Floyd at risk as a detainee. Chauvin knew or should have known Floyd was impaired in an irrational, heightened state of excitement. Under the influence, this is fertile circumstance for heart attack, stroke, seizures, and yes…asphyxiation. It’s common knowledge – especially for first responders.

  17. I’ve gotta bounce, but the last thing I want to point out is that the typical mens rea things you’re talking about are from the common law approach. Minnesota is one of those states whose legislature has statutorily preempted criminal law. And the Minnesota Supreme Court has been very hesitant to impose judicially-created doctrines on top of those statutes. That’s the only real reason that they haven’t adopted the merger doctrine. If the legislature wants to create a merger doctrine, it’s not hard for them to do so.

    1. Comment nesting issue. This was to Gray_Jay in the thread above.

      1. Thanks for the info. It provide some clarity which I think is at a premium in the face of so much nonprofessional speculation and emoting

      2. Thanks. I was getting my concepts from how the Model Penal Code does it. A giant chunk of it is codified in Texas criminal law.

        Great discussion.

  18. The propaganda machine is in full spin mode.

    CNN immediately followed live coverage with a panel of “experts” who began spinning hard…. They were not content to comment on the evidence and testimony and opine that Chauvin is guilty, they had to go further…. Floyd was a wonderful man who had many great things ahead of him… He was a light in the community. The defense was going to go on a smear campaign to defame his character (bit it won’t work).

    It was bizarre. You can be a criminal drug addict AND have been victimized by an indifferent police officer. It isn’t hero vs scumbag who should be killed.

    They were also pushing hard for anger and outrage by minorities in particular. They desperately want riots and unrest.

    They are trying hard to ensure that no verdict less than guilty on the top murder charge with a maximum sentence will be greeted as proof of racism (by Republicans) and greeted with violent protests.

    1. “They desperately want riots and unrest.”

      Yes. It pays off tremendously for them. Greater ratings, feeds their ego as they feel like Murrow describing London burning. They’ll continue to do it until punished for it.

    2. A lot of people are fed up with police violence. I am one of them. The reason this became an icon and a flashpoint is because it is all right there on video and audio clear as you can get with Floyd begging for his life and a crowd yelling for them to stop.

      An then the race card. I am not black and I am just as sickened and angry about The whole issue as anyone.

      There is no escaping that. I love how self proclaimed libertarians now think that drug users and past offenders somehow get what they deserve when they are murdered in this way. We have been pushing these issues for decades. But who cares about “scumbags”.

      1. No one deserves to be “murdered”. By anyone.

  19. The fact that Floyd was complaining of not being able to breathe when put in the squad car suggests that there is a reasonable doubt that his complaint of not being able to breathe while being kneeled on by Chauvin was not caused by the kneeling but by the physical and mental complications of the amount of drugs in his system. The argument by Chauvin’s defense for establishing doubt for Chauvin directly causing Floyd’s death seems a logical one to make.

    Chauvin indirectly contributing to Floyd’s death by ignoring EMTs and such would seem a more provable case to make.

    1. Maybe he was just scared shitless as anyone would be and adrenaline pumped. Heck I get nervous when I get pulled over for speeding. Cops are scary.

    2. Chauvin as his supervisor pointed out is responsible for situational awareness. He needs to know what is going on at all times. Training is to put someone on their side as soon as possible. He wasn’t even breathing and he still kept him prone in a chokehold.

      There is no way to defend that.

      1. I am not suggesting Chauvin acted properly. I am suggesting that proving beyond a reasonable doubt that his actions directly led to Floyd’s death and the assertion that Floyd being on drugs is not relevant to judging that is a weak argument based on the evidence.

  20. Not sure how you can’t find him guilty. Doesn’t matter what Floyd was or wasn’t on- cops don’t get to play judge, jury, executioner.

    Chauvin’s actions caused that man’s death and there is no way around that. He is a murderer. Had he not had a badge he would’ve already been in the cell and the key thrown away.

    1. There is a large amount of space between the cop overindulged his authority and the man in custody died and the cop executed the man in custody for what the cop perceived as crimes, and either has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.

    2. Remember the day’s when the term “murderer” had to be established with intent?

      Today if it snows and the owner salts the sidewalk (addressing the hazard – hut hum; passing counterfeit cash) which later turns to water and then later freezes again (resistance to purpose) then once the mailman comes and slips, falls and dies the homeowner is a “murderer” by the “weather changes” charges.

      Exact same foundation — Which to choose; Let the icy sidewalk alone (criminals go) and become wildly hazardous or address the “hazard” and pretend in no-way anything else will go wrong.

      UR an idiot.

    3. Chauvin didn’t intentionally with malice and aforethought kill Floyd in broad daylight on video in front of dozens of witnesses. He did accidentally kill him or at least substantially contribute to his demise, however.

  21. What really “compounded” the danger was resisting arrest.

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  23. Did Floyd vote in the Dem primary? Was he planning to vote for Biden? If not, he ain’t black, so that would rule out racism.

  24. First off, why are you still referencing the edited bystander videos rather than the broader evidence now being introduced at trial? You realize Andrew Branca is live-blogging it over at Legal Insurrection, right? You can keep up to date on the actual evidence?

    It’s already been shown that one video shows Floyd kicking out at the officers during the arrest, which is why they were looking for leg restraints which they ended up not using. It’s been established by the prosecution’s witnesses that person’s seemingly “out” can “come to” with near instantaneous violence, which is why they need to be restrained.

    And you have the interplay between the officers incorrect, in the initial police report the younger officer says he fears excited delirium and Chauvin replied that’s why they were doing the restraint as they were, which was per the policy and training they had received at the time.

    Excited delirium is not “intoxication,” it is the body burning itself out, allowing the suspect to move increases that. They were following protocol, restraining him for their and his safety while awaiting EMS which had the equipment and training to actually treat his OD. The same kind of OD, it turns out, he had narrowly survived under similar circumstances a year before.

    1. It wouldn’t have hurt to let up enough to show good faith and compassion.

  25. Jacob Sullum didjya read the piece about how the two lead officers, Chauvin and his partner up toward Floyd’s head, had recetnly taken a specifically targetted training class on how to identify and safely deal with people who were overdosed on drugs like Fantanyl and Methamphetamine? They had, it is documented. The Pinneapolis PD had requestd a number of their officers, including these two, to take that class just weeks prior to this incident. Both independently recognised Floyd’s overdosed condition and confirmed it with each other, then began to apply the protocols they learned in that course. They correclty identified fentanyl as the likely intoxicant, and that the dose was heavy and coming on rapidly. Their trainig specifies the precise restraint the two applied to Floyd, and they did so perfectly according to their training. It is dssigned to prevent the patient’s harmin ghimself by the violent thrashing about that is typical of such overdoses, and as Floyd was exhibiting. Tjey also called for mdica, ideintifyint the condition, advising them to be prepared to deal with fentanly. The medics were delayed long enough AND the dose was high enough (four times lethal on fentanyl, and twice letlal on meth) Be prepared for all this to come out at trial, MPD will work hard to uphold and protect their actionis, and their training,

    Of course NONE OF THIS will affect the court of the rabble portion of the general public, they are once again itching for a new excuse to run wild and trash this country. They will be triggered by the Not GUilty verdict. And theyhave their game highly refined by now, having had a whole year or so to practice and perfect and train.
    And da gummit are skeered of the “locl militia’ concept. THIS will be a time to deploy the localmilita to quell the rioting and assure “the security of a free state”. The present administration will just wathch, propose new useless or worse laws, whinge on about “ray sizm” and enact new laws to deny our right to defend ourselves in precisely this type of situation. Instead of arresting and moving agaisnt the rioters/thieves/anarchists, they will be arresting and charging numbers MORE who were merely ettampting to preserve their lives, as the couple in St. Louis, Mr. Rittenhauer, Andy Ngo, and dozens more.

  26. Could you tell me – was it decided that qualified immunity does not apply to this case?
    And if not, then how is this case not stopped by the QI?

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