Rudy Giuliani

Trump's Lawyers Surrender in Georgia Despite Giuliani's 'Conclusive Proof' of Election Fraud

Trump attorney Kurt Hilbert claimed he had reached settlement agreements with state officials, which was news to them.

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During the rally that preceded Wednesday's deadly attack on the Capitol by enraged Trump supporters, Rudy Giuliani, the president's personal attorney, said he was about to blow the lid off machine-facilitated election fraud in Georgia. That was not true. The next day, President Donald Trump's lawyers dropped four lawsuits alleging election irregularities and fraud in Georgia, claiming they had reached settlement agreements with state officials, who supposedly had promised to investigate Trump's outlandish charges. That was not true either.

Those two lies confirm that Giuliani never had any credible evidence to back up his reckless allegations against Dominion Voting Systems, which he claims helped Democrats rig election machines to switch "hundreds of thousands" of Trump votes to Biden votes. That widely promoted conspiracy theory, which on Friday prompted Dominion to sue former Trump campaign lawyer Sidney Powell for defamation, was at the heart of the grievances underlying Wednesday's violence. Yet Giuliani now has implicitly admitted it was all a hoax.

According to the final election results, Biden won Georgia by about 12,000 votes. Georgia reaffirmed Biden's victory after a statewide audit and two recounts, including one by hand. Those recounts, which found that paper ballots confirmed the outcome, should have laid to rest Giuliani's claim that the election was corrupted by fraud-facilitating software. Furthermore, as Georgia's Republican secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, notes in January 6 letter debunking Trump's fraud claims, "an audit of voting machines…confirmed the software on the machine was accurate and not tampered with." But Giuliani still was not satisfied.

"If they ran such a clean election, why wouldn't they make all the machines available immediately?" Giuliani asked thousands of ardent Trump supporters at the "Save America March" on Wednesday. "If they ran such a clean election, they'd have you come in and look at the paper ballots. Who hides evidence? Criminals hide evidence, not honest people. So over the next 10 days, we get to see the machines that are crooked, the ballots that are fraudulent. And if we're wrong, we will be made fools of. But if we're right, a lot of them will go to jail."

Giuliani claimed "one of the experts that has examined these crooked Dominion machines has absolutely what he believes is conclusive proof that in the last 10 percent, 15 percent of the vote counted, the votes were deliberately changed by the same algorithm that was used in cheating President Trump and Vice President Pence." With that "conclusive proof" in hand, Giuliani was confident that the truth would come out. "So let's have trial by combat," he said. "I'm willing to stake my reputation. The president is willing to stake his reputation on the fact that we're going to find criminality there."

Given that Giuliani has had more than two months to back up his "easily provable" claims and has repeatedly failed to do so, you might think the ship has sailed on his reputation. But even if you are a diehard Trump supporter who was hoping the evidence would finally materialize, what happened the next day confirmed once again that there is no rabbit in that hat. Facing a state trial on Friday at which they would have had to put up or shut up, the president's lawyers abandoned four lawsuits challenging Georgia's election results. It turned out that Giuliani and his associates did not have the guts to face "trial by combat," or even combat by trial.

Trump campaign lawyer Kurt Hilbert, who participated in the January 2 phone call during which the president pressured Raffensperger to "find" the votes he needed to overturn Biden's victory, told a federal judge the campaign was dropping Trump v. Kemp, which alleged that Georgia's election was "conducted contrary to clearly established law," "due to an out of court settlement agreement." But Georgia's Republican attorney general, Christopher Carr, said there was no such agreement.

While the state officials whom the campaign sued in federal court "do not object to Trump's voluntary dismissal," Carr said, "Defendants do object to the false grounds articulated in the notice." Contrary to Hilbert's claim, he said "there is no 'settlement.'" While "Plaintiff's counsel inquired on numerous occasions about settling the disputes," Carr explained, "those inquiries were repeatedly rebuffed by Defendants on the grounds that Plaintiff's litigation efforts were frivolous and the certified results of the November 3, 2020, Election were valid."

On Thursday, Hilbert also cited "an out of court agreement" in seeking dismissal of Boland v. Raffensperger, a November 29 state lawsuit alleging that "20,312 ballots were cast by individuals who are no longer Georgia residents" and that signature verification procedures were inadequate. Carr again responded by denying that any such agreement had been reached.

Hilbert's notice of voluntary dismissal in Trump v. Raffenspergera December 4 state lawsuit alleging that Georgia's election procedures "deviated significantly and substantially" from state law, likewise asserts "an out of court agreement" that Carr says never happened. So does Hilbert's notice in Still v. Raffensperger, a December 12 state lawsuit alleging "electronic recount anomalies" in Coffee County.

Hilbert insisted that state officials had reached an agreement with the Trump campaign, even if they did not realize it. "We are confident that we have a valid settlement agreement," he said in an email quoted by Bloomberg News. "If you have doubts, we recommend that you speak with an independent contract attorney who we believe would corroborate our interpretation."

Raffensperger offers a more plausible explanation in a press release he issued on Thursday. He notes that Trump's lawyers were scheduled to present evidence in one of their cases at a trial on Friday before Cobb County Superior Court Judge Adele Grubbs.

"Rather than presenting their evidence and witnesses to a court and to cross-examination under oath, the Trump campaign wisely decided the smartest course was to dismiss their frivolous cases," Raffensperger says. "Spreading disinformation about elections is dangerous and wrong. It was wrong when Stacey Abrams and her allies made false claims about Georgia's election processes following the 2018 election and run-up to the 2020 election, and it's wrong when the President and his allies are doing it now."

Giuliani's persistent promotion of baseless allegations regarding Dominion's role in the anti-Trump plot that supposedly deprived the president of his rightful victory not only sacrificed whatever reputation he had left. It also may expose him to serious legal risk insofar as his conspiracy mongering went beyond advocacy of his client's position in litigation. A Dominion executive already has sued Giuliani for defamation. On Friday, the company filed a $1.3 billion defamation lawsuit against Powell, an erstwhile Giuliani ally who for months has been telling the same basic story.

"As a result of the defamatory falsehoods peddled by Powell—in concert with likeminded allies and media outlets who were determined to promote a false preconceived narrative—Dominion's founder, Dominion's employees, Georgia's governor, and Georgia's secretary of state have been harassed and have received death threats, and Dominion has suffered enormous harm," says the complaint, which was filed in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. Since Giuliani is one of those "likeminded allies," he may also be sued by Dominion. Unless Giuliani blinks again and settles out of court (for real this time), such lawsuits may finally force him to produce his "conclusive proof."

NEXT: Why Is America Still In Syria?

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    2. Trump will be deposed. He will be arrested. His criminal family members will be arrested too. The Democrats are on the right side of history and we have the American people on our side too. President-elect Biden will put forward a progressive-libertarian agenda that raises taxes on the wealthy, pushes sensible, science-based regulations, and prohibits weapons of war from being owned by your average American citizen.

      1. “Progressive-libertarian” is the ultimate oxymoron. And just like in other banana republics, former leaders and their families will be arrested. Welcome to the Democratic Peoples Republic of America.

      2. If you hate liberty so much, why are you here?

        1. If you hate liberty so much, why are you here?

          This was the last place.

    3. Still a better resume than a con-man reality TV congenital liar.

      1. Please explain.

        1. Don’t bother; bullshit and outright lies.

          1. Fuck off. You are one of the assholes supporting and enabling the insurrection that got people killed.

            1. Yeah BLM is the worst.

            2. He’s an Antifa/BLM member? Those people got 50+ people killed and over 1 Billion in damage from their riots.

      2. Thousands of drug criminals disagree.

    4. Is Joe Biden Donald Trump?

      Oh, Joe Biden isn’t Donald Trump? Not even a little?

      Then he, like any random potted plant, has the necessary qualifications.

      1. I’m sorry you’re upset that you voted for a potted plant.

        1. I’m not very upset about that at all.

          1. I’m sorry you’re upset that we can see you’re upset.

            1. Fuck off.

                1. Hey Trumpist felcher! (I’d bet you’d do it too!) I’ve sent screen shots of some of the posts in which you threaten violent action against various government officials and promote the violent overthrow of the US government and mass violence against civilians to the FBI. Hopefully Preet will be back on the job as a US Attorney (maybe in your district, because I doubt you live in the SDNY unless you’re from guido trash Staten Island, lol) and you’ll get to experience the full weight and penetrating force of the US government. He’s a bad-ass prosecutor.

                  Time’s up for Trumpists!

          2. A potted plant is about your level of intellect

          3. Yeah, that sounds about right for you actually.

          4. “I’m not very upset about that at all.”

            Ken S. posited earlier today in one of the other “orange man bad” threads that certain commenters are assumed to be dishonest, but that grants them far too much credit: Dishonesty requires a mind acute enough to recognize and reject fact.
            There are Tony, turd, M4e, jackass and others here who qualify as incapable of that. I propose this be called the “KS Line”; and those under it might be due some sympathy for their condition. It’s not easy getting along in a world full of information and data with a brain simply not equipped to really “think”.
            Regardless, they still need to be called on their idiocy; perhaps one or more might even become capable of critical thought, doubtful though that seems.
            You ain’t among them, shitstain; fuck off and die. A painful death; you deserve it.

            1. I admit I’m probably not sad enough at the prospect of you people hurling your sweaty fat asses into the abattoir of US justice.

              Just remember, Dick Cheney wrote the rules.

          5. Tony is almost as smart as a potted plant, that’s why he votes for them.

      2. Biden is a vicious, vilely dishonest party hack.

          1. Everyone is upset that Trump is so vile, angry, with no filters on his speech. Because of that – he isn’t very “presidential.” To them, a president needs to smile, say nice things, and then stab in the back, in the darkness. And that’s what they got in Biden. Congrats.

    5. Fuck off.

  2. Whole lotta scare quotes in this story.

    1. Do you disagree with writers using scare quotes in general, or do you doubt that Giuliani had used those exact terms?

      1. The Trump campaign already presented evidence of voter fraud and unconstitutional changes to Georgia election law.

        The Georgia state legislature sent Trump electors to the National Archives to contest the scheme by Democrats to steal election 2020.

        AZ, NV, MI, WI, PA did too.

        1. Fuck off, you lied filled sack of shit.

          1. Suck a dick, dumb shit!

        2. Remember when you repeatedly promised us that the results would be overturned on January 6th? How’s that prediction working out for you?

        3. “The Georgia state legislature sent Trump electors to the National Archives…”

          The legislature did? Or maybe a handful of state legislators suggested that “alternative” electors using those “alternative facts” challenge the results even though they had zero legal or constitutional standing to do so? Or did any current Georgia elected or appointed official sign on to these people declaring themselves being electors at all?

  3. The obsession over Trump isn’t gonna stop, is it.

    1. This was their moneymaker. With Trump gone all the news outlets wont have anything to criticize or lie about. For Reason is means back to very weakly attacking the Left and or semi praising like they did for 8 years of Obama. Sullum will probably spend the next four years criticizing Trump and his supporters while ignoring the terrible things the Left will try to do to this country. At least Dalmia isnt here anymore.

      1. They will have plenty to lie about, but it will not get the clicks. Rip Van Joe is about as exciting as milk and toast.

    2. We will have the next 4 years to uncover the crimes committed by the Trump family. I await the publicized trials and legal commentary on CNN and MSNBC.

    3. It will stop after he is impeached, humiliated, and relegated to the dustbin of history where he belongs.

      1. Lol. Never stop being you sqrsly.

        1. traitor

          1. ^ Ooh! look at the patriot here.
            Maybe you should buy a bigger flag for your pickup truck.

          2. I’m feeling feisty tonight and I hate DOL/WK, so I’ll bite.

            Who’s the traitor and why, you demagogic piece of shit? Spit it out.

          3. fuck off White Blight

          4. De Oppresso Liber
            January.10.2021 at 8:28 pm
            “traitor”

            You’d assume that those capable of rational thought would be familiar with the actual definitions of words and you’re probably right.
            Ken S. posited earlier today in one of the other “orange man bad” threads that certain commenters are assumed to be dishonest, but that grants them far too much credit: Dishonesty requires a mind acute enough to recognize and reject fact.
            There are Tony, turd, M4e, jackass, ODL, and others here who qualify as incapable of that. I propose this be called the “KS Line”; and those under it might be due some sympathy for their condition. It’s not easy getting along in a world full of information and data with a brain simply not equipped to really “think”.
            Regardless, they still need to be called on their idiocy; perhaps one or more might even become capable of critical thought, doubtful though that seems.
            ODL, welcome to the sub-KS line; nothing a fucking lefty ignoramus doesn’t deserve!
            Oh, and fuck off an die; your mommy will be pleased.

    4. Apparently not.

      Sikkim is beating the ever living shit out of this dead horse, while it seems all of Reason is content to just let the purposeful purge of conservative thought on the internet get obliterated.

      I’m certainly not a “Reason needs to cover my pet peeve and if not they’re commies” type of guy, but one would think that the extermination of open speech in our society would be something they’d think was important.

      1. You’re thinking of old Reason, it got replaced in 2008 by the new and more culturally relevant TeenReason.

      2. Reason is really going for the gold medal in democrat ball gargling this year.

    5. All these Trump articles, and nothing on the Parler scenario. So it appears Reason is now against the first amendment.

      1. Right, because Parler was kicked off the internet (temporarily) by the government. Oh, wait, no. It was kicked off of a cloud service by a private company claiming that Parler was violating the terms of service it agreed to when it started doing business with that private company. Those alleged violations, by the way, were in allowing threats of violence to persist on its platform from its users. Users that don’t seem to be doing themselves any favors, as there appear to be some saying elsewhere on the internet about what a shame it would be if someone blew up Amazon’s servers or whatever, while making a note that those locations are publicly available.

        Why is it that right-wing crybabies don’t understand the 1st Amendment to the Constitution they claim to love? No one owes you a platform to spew hate and threats of violence, and the 1st Amendment doesn’t protect you from people that will call you out and refuse to associate with you when you do.

        1. No, it’s a coordinated effort by leftist operatives at key corporations (Apple, Google, Amazon) to shut down a social media platform favored by the enemies of their progressive political allies.

          What is it that left wing crybabies don’t understand about your master’s ceaseless efforts to crush any dissent? It does make sense as none of you have any credible ideas of your own. So you can’t handle debate.

          But feel free to keep lying and distorting the truth. It’s your only option.

          1. You have the freedom to start your own internet cloud service and host a bunch of apps, too. Or are you just too lazy?

          2. “But feel free to keep lying and distorting the truth. It’s your only option.”

            And feel free to keep appealing to conspiracy theories about your political views being silenced by the Deep State or whatever other boogeyman whenever you don’t have any other argument.

            Does Amazon, Twitter, or anyone else hosting web services or providing platforms for users to post to the internet have to allow threats of violence and incitement to violence against others? In case you can’t figure that out for yourself, I’ll give you a hint. No.

        2. Now do cake baking.

        3. Indeed, Jason, indeed.

          Jason, one thing is clearly proven here, the right-wing crybabies only ever understood (mostly) or cared much about the 2nd Amendment, all the rest of the Constitutional protections can go to hell in their minds. Due process, F-off, cut out the “legal loopholes” and “it takes too long to execute people”, 1st Amendment, well, anyone who disagrees with them in the MSM should be killed, 3rd Amendment or 4th, nah.. unreasonable search is fine, after all “profiling” isn’t bad and if the government needs something from you for warmaking, well if you object, then “yer against US” – as W once said. The 5th and 6th, bad, no one who is innocent should need to protect themselves from self-incrimination (and we already covered due process). No, really only the 2nd is worth caring about. Even the 10th isn’t REALLY important, after all, they want to strip the states of their powers to legally and lawfully and fairly adjudicate elections whenever those elections don’t go their way, and equally, they want to impose federal bans on numerous things (like abortion), even in states where it’s legal. They CLEARLY oppose the 13th-15th Amendments which guarantee minorities the right to vote w/o intrusion – as they keep trying to impose poll taxes (called voter ID requirements), and they oppose birth-right citizenship.

          So, the only thing these pseudo-Constitutionalist agree on is the support for the 2nd Amendment, and in that only with THEIR right to keep and bear arms.

          Yep, sure are some damned fine patreeeotic murkins.

          1. One day comes when you are hungry.
            One day comes when you naively rely on your “friends”
            One day may never come when you are independent, however
            One day comes as TRUTH is revealed:

          2. More the reason we need secession, now!

            You and your leftist can take you presuppositions about our philosophies and ideas, frame them in a picture frame on your wall and fuck off and make your own union. And we can make ours.

            “But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.”

            Secession time! Break this union up! Now.

        4. Parler has only itself to blame for a terrible interface and a repelling user experience.

          1. YOU must have pictures?
            The superficial interface imposes restrictions over content?
            That is laughable AND pathetic

        5. Right, because Parler was kicked off the internet (temporarily) by the government.

          That’s correct. Apple, Twitter, Google, Amazon, the mainstream media, Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest. Those are your government now. They pull strings, government does what they say. Now they have said Biden won this thing. They have also said that these capitol hill people are seditious insurrectionists. The BLM & Antifa bunch that killed 50 people and incurred over a billion dollars in damage throughout the year. Those people are not. Their rioting was “okay.” These people on on the right… their rioting is NOT okay. Trump mentioned section 230. So the powers at be had to get him out of there. Biden, a paid employee of the country of China, will never, ever, ever, mention section 230. And so he is good to go. Next, the powers that be, will ask biden to continue moving forward with socialism (making everyone equally miserable). And your complaining ass is going to get in line. Or else.

    6. unreason knows they helped steal an election. Americans wont accept the Commies lies from unreason and MSM, so the Lefties need to destroy dissent.

    7. Fuck off. Sullum was reporting on new, relevant news.

      1. “Giuliani and his associates did not have the guts to face “trial by combat,” or even combat by trial”
        Trials presented before liberal activist judges,
        afforded no redress of factual grievances:
        Jacob only parrots your orgasmic dreams…

      2. Fuck on! Sullen Dick was sucking Biden Sr's cock while Biden Jr. was filling up his guts with his AIDS infested hot load!

    8. Nope, and Trump is gonna make a lot of money off all the hate.

      Great job liberals! You suckers are helping enrich the orange man, LOL!

    9. I don’t care about Trump. It’s about the left’s treatment of him. And the right will have it’s retribution, one way or another.

  4. Losers gonna lose

    1. Expert opinion

    2. Assholes gonna asshole.

    3. Democrats lost alright. The election fraud scheme has been publicly exposed.

      It will be fun when this all plays out.

  5. “Trump’s Lawyers Surrender in Georgia Despite Giuliani’s ‘Conclusive Proof’ of Election Fraud”

    Trump’s Lawyers are ENTIRELY TOO STUPID to check with the Amphibian People to present THEIR ‘Conclusive Proof’ of Election Fraud; THERE is your problem!

    What we have seen in very recent history, is that Trumpistas have been adamantly opposed to immigrant Lizard People, who use Mind-Control beams to make voters against Trump. They have, however, welcomed with open arms (and open legs), the Amphibian People, who use Mind-Control beams to make voters FOR Trump.

    Before we get a flurry of posts here from xenophobic Trumpistas slamming even the idea of pro-“R”-party Amphibian People immigration… “R” fanatics saying that ALL immigration is UTTERLY EVIL… Let me point out to you, that the Amphibian People ARE indeed “benevolent”, per the “R”-Party yardstick (“R” good, all other parties BAD!).

    Let me give you a VERY prominent Amphibian Person with the CORRECT thoughts and attitudes! I give you Pepe the Amphibian Person, stolen-IP-4Chan-Frog! Racist frog, NAZI frog, yaya-yada!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepe_the_Frog

    1. Amphibians are not Kosher and therefore anti-Semitic.

      1. Good point!

        What about future, GMO Amphibians? Tack some split hooves on them, get them to properly chew their cud (with their green mouths properly kept SHUT, fer Chrissakes!), and wear forelocks and white clothes with blue trim… THEN will they be kosher? Can I eat them NOW? Can I eat them in a boat, with a goat? Can I eat them here, or there, or anywhere, Sam I Am?

        1. AHAHAHAHA SARCASMIC TOLD US HIS MOM FUCKS MOOSE AHAHAHA

          Every time I see you sarc.

          “SQRLSY One
          January.10.2021 at 12:09 pm
          Momma NEVER EVER makes a lick of sense! Moose-fucking does that sort of thing to ya, ya know…”

        2. It makes reading a thread so much more pleasant when you flag all the posts from a spastic.

        3. SQRLSY SUCKS DICK FOR COKE!!!!

          1. John el Diablo worships the Evil One for FREE!!!!

        4. Here. You can eat this:

          ……..…. ▄▄ ▄▄
          ….……▄▌▒▒▀▒▒▐▄
          ..…. ▐▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▌
          ..… ▐▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▌
          ..….▐▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▌
          ..….▐▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀▌
          ..….▐░░░░░░░░░░░▌
          ..….▐░░░░░░░░░░░▌
          ..….▐░░░░░░░░░░░▌
          ..….▐░░░░░░░░░░░▌
          ..….▐░░░░░░░░░░░▌
          ..….▐░░░░░░░░░░░▌
          ..….▐░░░░░░░░░░░▌
          ..….▐░░░░░░░░░░░▌
          ..….▐░░░░░░░░░░░▌
          ..….▐░░░░░░░░░░░▌
          ..….▐░░░░░░░░░░░▌
          ..…▄█▓░░░░░░░░░▓█▄
          ..▄▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░ ▀▄
          .▐░░░░░░░▀▄▒▄▀░░░░░░▌
          ▐░░░░░░░▒▒▐▒▒░░░░░░░▌
          ▐▒░░░░░▒▒▒▐▒▒▒░░░░░▒▌
          .▀▄▒▒▒▒▒▄▀▒▀▄▒▒▒▒▒▄▀
          ….. ▀▀▀▀▀…..▀▀▀▀▀

    2. Oh, come on! That’s mean! Cold blooded creatures have feelings too!

      1. You mean, That’s cold!

        1. Um, no. That’s definitely not what I mean.

    3. SQRLSY is an expert on ‘too stupid’, so let’s hear him out.

      1. Wow, what literary talent and rapier wit! Let’s see if I can match or exceed it, with some OTHER brilliantly smart comments that I have created just now!

        Fuck off, spaz!
        You eat shit, you said so yourself!
        You’re a racist Hitler-lover!
        Take your meds!
        That’s so retarded!
        You’re a Marxist!
        Your feet stink and you don’t love Trump!
        Your source is leftist, so it must be false!
        Trump rules and leftists drool!
        You are SOOO icky-poo!
        But Goo-Goo-Gah-Gah!

        Wow, I am now 11 times as smart and original as you are!

  6. Jesus Christ, the Sullum-bot is on autopilot.

    1. Google’s machine learning algorithms have made libertarian “journalists” redundant.

      1. If a nuclear war broke out yesterday and an alien flying saucer had landed next to the reflecting pool on the National Mall this morning, Sullum might have written the same thing.

        Meanwhile, libertarians are staring at the most authoritarian and socialist policies America has ever seen with no opposition in sight–specifically because President Trump lost.

        Some people have a hard time with moving the goal posts. No one should ever accuse Sullum of that. Sullum can’t even seem to change the subject!

        1. Racist man sad. Look at the man throwing an ignorant tantrum.

          1. Yes, because Biden only gave one speech to the Klan and was totally against them after.

            Meanwhile, when Trump was awarded with the Ellis Island Award, along with Rosa Parks and Muhammad Ali in 1989 for his work with black charities, he was secretly something, something.
            https://www.thewrap.com/donald-trump-met-rosa-parks-muhammad-ali-photo/

            Or when Trump dated black woman for two years it was just jungle fever or something, something.

            Or when Trump fought the City of Palm Beach, when he bought a segregated club, Mar A Lago, to open it to Blacks, it was purely because of Blacks huge financial power.

            Or when Trump funded Jesse Jackson’s first presidential campaign it was because something something.

            Anyway, totally racist.

            1. Just because his kids, and in-laws, and grand-kids are Jewish, doesn’t mean he’s not a Nazi anti-Semite alt-reality-(tv)-right winger.

            2. Trump is a malignant narcissist. He does whatever he needs to do to sate his own need for constant attention. Right now, he panders and stokes racism in his base because they like it and he needs them to keep coming to the rallies he so craves. Yes that makes him a racist, regardless of the meaningless list that you so diligently put together without context. The man does not care about black people any more than he cares about your wall, your tax dollars, or your vapid need to be entertained by public servants. He only cares about his money, his ego, and, by extension, his family and he will say absolutely anything you want to hear to keep him in power. If that is a bunch of racist shit so be it. Sad.

              1. No shit Sherlock.
                However, sometimes it does no harm to state the bleedin obvious.
                Here, it adds a note of Sanity. Compared to the ASCII art dick pix used by some commenters as rational argument.

                Yes, they are psychotic. Actually mentally ill, not just misled or differing in opinion. Dangerous? Mostly not.

                The Bad Actors amongst them, using them, yes.

                The Fools who think an armed attack on the United States is just hilarious cosplay are only dangerous to themselves, as they are finding out now the FBI are calling, without any trace of a sense of humour.

                Meanwhile, what should be a place for rational, reasoned debate is now 90% poo flinging by screeching simians. There are no “sides” here, just lunacy.

                To state the obvious.

          2. ohlookMarketthugs
            January.10.2021 at 7:40 pm
            “Racist man sad. Look at the man throwing an ignorant tantrum.”

            Assholish liar trowing temper tantrum!
            Fuck off an die, lefty shit,

        2. Ken, the red scare 2 just isn’t going to be a thing. Stop trying to make it a thing.

          Meanwhile, Schwarzenegger, the son of a nazi and a succesful GOP governor, just called you guys all nazis. Might be time to lie low and reinvent yourself, or you know, just self reflect and apologize.

          1. He’s trying to avoid getting put against the wall. It won’t work.

          2. Yes because unlike the Nazis, the Democrats are against censorship, book-burning, gun control, abortion and infanticide, starting wars and rampant corporatism… Oh wait.

          3. You think you’re gonna be lauded don’t you.

            Friend the left is gonna find your posts here and cancel you too.

            Anyway it takes a nazi like Schwarzenegger who pimped for warmongers like Bush to call others nazis. Count yourself in that group.

            1. DOL/WK imagines he’s going to be nomenklatura and get a private apartment in Frisco and a sweet dacha in Aspen, but he’s actually going to end up on the gibbet with the rest of us kulaks.

              1. But the gibbet is in Aspen, so the view is nice.

          4. Your WK sock is better

    2. Like Trump’s lawyers.

    3. Have you seen sarcasmic bot lately?

      unreason is so close to having their Commie wet dreams realized.

      It just never works out for them.

    4. Fuck off.

  7. This was a con game. Those insurrectionist that stormed the capital were pawns of Trump and his lawyers. Those people gave their money for nothing. Some of them will have criminal record and some (that kill a police officer) will go to jail. For what, some made up story by a bunch of lawyers. All Trump and his lawyers had to do was withdraw the lawsuit before they had to put up evidence. They will lose little, others will lose much more.

    1. Con game is you, sqrsly, and sarcasmic (i repeat) of ever pretending you were libertarian.

      1. So what if someone is or isn’t a libertarian? Is that why you come to this website and comment? To be around others who think just like you do and call to vote off the island anyone that doesn’t have the same purity of thought?

        This is why I’ve never subscribed to any named ideology. It too easily becomes about identifying with the group. People may think that a political ideology helps them be consistent and hold to core values and principles in varying circumstances, but tribalism overwhelms any potential benefits that might be gained from this.

        Also, political ideology starts with subjective values for many of its premises to begin with. And values that might end up competing or conflicting with each other in specific situations then need to be prioritized. Those factors mean that ideology will not constrain people from giving in to their cognitive biases as well as they assume that it will. They will find the flexibility to believe what they want unless they work hard and consider arguments from outside of their group.

        Why do you think that essentially every person that has ever argued or debated about politics has engaged in hypocrisy at some point? (I include myself in this, obviously.)

        1. It doesn’t matter if they aren’t libertarian, but Sarc/Sqrls, DOL/WK/Chipper and Jeff and his millions of socks are constantly pretending to be libertarian when they’re obviously not.
          At best they’re bog-standard progs with authoritarian sympathies.

          Tony is the only one somewhat honest about his political proclivities.

          1. So what if they aren’t true libertarians in your eyes? What do you have to say in response to their actual comments? Do you think that Trump or any of his allies are real libertarians?

            1. They don’t need to be. Many of their goals were libertarian, or at least in the right direction. Since I’m not a prog I don’t need everyone to agree with me 100% on everything. That lets me support someone like Trump who at least mostly has it right.

              1. “They don’t need to be. Many of their goals were libertarian, or at least in the right direction.”

                Sure, environmental deregulation sounds all great and libertarian until it is your backyard and your drinking water being polluted. Trump promised 4% a year to GDP or more from the combination of deregulation and the corporate tax cuts, yet the pre-COVID reality was mostly a continuation of the existing upward trends. How much of the money corporations saved did they put into stock buybacks instead of investing in America? And how in the hell are his unilateral tariffs libertarian?

                “Since I’m not a prog I don’t need everyone to agree with me 100% on everything.”

                I’m not a progressive either. It is the Trump phenomenon that insists on complete loyalty to Trump on everything. To whatever extent progressives insist on conformity, it pales in comparison to Trumpism. They will still vote for moderate Democrats, and that is because the Democratic Party still tries to appeal to a real majority of the population, instead of only trying to leverage the loyalty of its base.

                1. Did you consult your doctor before you decided to take that many blue pills at once?

            2. Why are you such a passive aggressive pussy that you have to pretend to be anything other than leftist?

              One confident in the correctness of their position doesn’t hide their foundation.

              1. Nardz,

                I don’t hide anything. You are the one insisting that you can place me on a one dimensional political axis based on the comments I write here. And since the topics of the articles I comment on aren’t about broad political ideas, but specifics about Trump and his bullshit, you have no fucking clue what I think about many, if not most political topics.

                I am definitely to the left on many topics, but less so on others, and I do lean right in a few other areas. Basically, I go issue by issue rather than looking to build a system of political thought around where I want to be on that left-right spectrum. I like to be this way because it allows me more freedom to be skeptical of both those that generally want the same things as well as my own ideas.

                Why do all of you insist on people you argue with being labeled with some political ideology or party? I think it isn’t about whether someone is a “progressive”, “libertarian”, or “socialist”, but simply a matter of “us” vs. “them”.

      2. Nice retort, but what does it mean.

        People were strung along with a false narrative of a fraudulent election. There were solicited for money. There were told to riot. And nothing they were told was true, because when the time came to support the narrative, Trump’s lawyers folded up shop. It was a con job.

      3. Fuck off, insurrectionist incel. You are full of shit from your head to your toes, and have not one shred of decency.

    2. Largest election fraud scheme in US history by Democrats. I agree that it was.

      Look how upset the Commies in Silicon Valley are. They are trying to stop dissent. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

    3. The significance of storming the Capitol is totally lost on you.

      1. Enlighten me?

        1. Ever since the 1960’s the left has had, with few exceptions, a monopoly on storming buildings and breaking shit. And they overplayed their hand over the summer.

          In the past, conservative outrage was always pacified by “we must beat them at the ballot box, have faith in our great system.”

          You geniuses just removed the one thing that kept them in line. And now we see they were willing to copy leftist thugs in their tactics.

          That is a major shift, especially when you consider the public either doesn’t give a shit, or thinks it was funny.

          1. What does this have to do with there being a con job. Those people storming the Capital were told a lie. When time came to show evidence Trump’s lawyers folded.

  8. You trumpies tired of winning yet?

    Man I hope your little tantrum was fun for ya. The GOP was already going to be stained after trumps term, but it will almost certainly be a laughing stock for years to come, and they might even have trouble putting a check on biden in 2022. Which should have been a lock.

    Guess maybe next time you will put some more thought in before supporting a blatant conman, disconnected from reality, and following him in his fever dreams. Also, cpt bone spurs couldnt have stayed more true to his cowardice when he riled up a bunch of yokels, said “lets march to the capitol!” and then…went inside and watched them march there from the comfort of his couch. A true king you want to fight with/for if I have ever seen one.

    1. Kirkland’s second show. Not a lawyer but a hell of a performance artist.

      1. It’s DOL/WK shitposting with a week old sock.

    2. This is winning at its finest.

      Democrats started the Civil War 2.0 and it was going to turn into bloodletting in 2024 or now.

      Better to get it over with and defeat the Democrats now.

    3. “maybe next time you will put some more thought in”

      No, next time they will put more thought into copying Antifa tactics next time they peacefully protest.

  9. This is quite the legacy that Trumpistas want to be associated with. A narcissistic buffoon who lied to his supporters over a fair election and got them to violently storm the Capital in an effort to overturn said election.

    Why anyone would want that to be their badge of honor is beyond me.

    1. And yet you’ll cheer your bae on for 4 year whose legacy is a number of wars, expanded federal government, growing debt. Got what you want buddy.

      1. Oh look! A little flag over there! Wonder what that does? The gnat disappeared! Joy!

        1. Stay off the drugs son.

        2. Sarcasmic getting in the mood indulge in his own little cancel culture here in the comments.
          He’s had a raging censorship boner ever since the great woke deplatforming and Parler shutdown started.

          But don’t you dare criticize his libertarian bonafides.

          1. That’s not sarc, he doesn’t post on the weekends.

    2. It’s kind of embarassing to watch you try so hard.

  10. Just a suggestion:
    Perhaps instead of the same tired comments on the umpteenth Sullum article on this topic, let’s discuss instead what we would like to see in an ideal voting system. What would you keep, and what would you do differently?

    1. Would you retain the secret ballot?
    2. Would you retain absentee voting in some form or fashion? If not, then how would you deal with situations of legitimate voters who can’t physically appear at the voting booth on election day (deployed soldiers, people in nursing homes/hospitals, citizens living abroad)? If so, then what security precautions would you insist upon?
    3. Would you retain early voting? Why or why not?
    4. Would you support universal mail-in ballots? Why or why not? If so, what security precautions would you insist upon?
    5. For in-person voting, what identity verification procedures would you insist upon? If you would insist upon a state-issued photo ID, what steps (if any) do you think the state should take in order to facilitate voters acquiring that ID?
    6. Do you support the use of voting machines *instead of* paper ballots? Do you support the use of voting machines *along with* paper ballots? Why or why not? If yes but conditionally, then under what conditions?
    7. In terms of ballot counting, how should the ballot counters be picked, and how should they be supervised?

    Just a few questions I’ve been thinking about over the past few weeks.

    1. My office is filled with the sound of crickets because my gecko didn’t eat all her food.

      I’m guessing the response to those questions will be similar.

      1. Well, maybe. But IMO these are more interesting questions than the same old stuff from the previous 200 Sullum articles on the topic.

        1. I agree, but with few exceptions (Ken comes to mind) most of the posters only come here because calling people names makes them feel smug.

        2. Boy am I glad to be wrong sometimes!

        3. I think a secret ballot is absolutely essential to a democracy. Otherwise, you will get spouses pressuring each other to vote a certain way, people getting fired over their ballots, and buying of votes by special interest groups.

      2. Dubias and mealworms/superworms don’t make sounds and can’t fly or jump

        1. I don’t mind the chirping, and the critter has fun chasing them around.

          Girl at the pet store suggested I put out a small water bowl with the calcium dust rather than dusting the crickets; said the animal knows when it needs it. Thought it sounded odd but I tried it, and the next day saw a couple tongue marks. Guess she was right.

          1. Works with chickens too.

            Put out a bowl of grit (basically small bits of calcium), and they’ll peck at when they need it.

            Haven’t had a calcium deficiency since I started.

        2. Dubias are so much better than crickets. Crickets are disgusting. They smell bad and one always gets away and hides in some inaccessible spot, where it chirps until it dies.

    2. The current 50 state system is good enough.

      Nut jobs will always bitch about imaginary voter fraud.

      1. RESIST!
        Not my president
        IMPEACH!
        Russian influence!
        #NeverBiden

      2. I am fine with a 50 state system as well. I guess that was more of an implied assumption behind those questions. They were more about what each of the 50 state systems might look like.

      3. Fraud… The EC can let someone win while losing the popular vote… What was Gore’s excuse?

        No matter what, losers have excuses.

    3. they dont want a relational conversation about voting systems or security. they have had ample options and time for this. at every turn they reject it, until they got riled up by a conman

      all of those point should be discussed, and we SHOULD have election reform. I just find it entertaining the party that wholly rejects any sort of election reform or security all of a sudden found their voice for it when they lost.

      frankly, I am fine with something like a PIN system tied to your SS that you have to set up with significant security measures that you have to use to vote.

      1. It’s Racist to ask for ID when voting.

        1. The racism comes when the state DMV puts far less offices with reduced hours in minority areas. They also make it hard to get the documents needed for ID.

          1. What kind of ID are we talking about here? The kind you need to, I dunno, get a job or go to school? If these people choose not to work or go to school I doubt they’ll make good choices in the voting booth either.

            1. You can get a job with documents that are not accepted for voting.

              1. You need to present ID to vote? I guess I’m confused.

              2. Incorrect – see the I-9 form.

                1. The list of acceptable IDs for I-9 is much longer then the list of IDs to vote in many states.

          2. The DMV does not discriminate, they make the process equally horrible for everyone.

            1. They don’t. In some areas there are entire counties with no DMV. In my county, the only DMV is a fair bit out in the rural area with poor bus service. If you don’t have a car it is at least a half day trip to get there, do what you need to, and get back.

            2. No, that’s not true. The DMV offices in nice suburban areas are more like waiting in line at a supermarket. Annoying but not soul-crushing. The DMV offices in run-down areas can be downright scary.

              1. Like walking down the street at night alone?

                1. AHAHAHA SARC IS SCARED AHAHAAHAA

              2. How could a loving and caring government have an office that doesn’t fill you with joy and hope?

      2. frankly, I am fine with something like a PIN system tied to your SS that you have to set up with significant security measures that you have to use to vote.

        That sounds eminently reasonable.

        1. Racist. Not everyone has a SSN.

        2. Yes, not bad at all.

    4. 1. Yes
      2. Yes. Must present photo identification with REAL ID, and signature verification. Would not change military ballot process.
      3. Yes, for a shorter time period, say one week.
      4. No. Too ripe for fraud. Even Jimmy Carter said that. He was right.
      5. State issued Photo ID, with REAL ID and citizenship verification. The state can announce where to get them, and provide them at no cost to low income.
      6. If there is an ironclad audit trail, sure. Voting machine + paper ballot audit trial is fine.
      7. In accordance with law, passed by the state legislature.

      1. 2. How would the photo ID thing work with absentee balloting?

        3. Why only one week?

        5. One of the arguments against requiring a specific ID to vote is that the cost of obtaining an ID represents a backdoor poll tax, which is of course illegal. The cost to obtain an ID is not just the cost of the ID itself, but the time and effort spent to get the ID. Given that, do you think the state should be more proactive in helping voters to get ID?

        1. 2. The voter walks into the Registrar’s office, presents ID, is verified, and then handed an absentee ballot.

          3. One week is more than sufficient time to cast a vote.

          5. No.

        2. 5. The very act of voting requires time and effort. These are not a “cost” in the same sense as a poll tax. Otherwise every voting system could be attacked as insufficient because there is always some arbitrarily expensive step the state could take to make voting just a little bit easier for individuals.

          Furthermore, I think it should take a bit of time and effort to vote. That’s one way to prevent things like ballot harvesting from low information / low interest people. If you can’t be bothered to take a couple hours a year to vote, then you probably aren’t taking the time to keep up with the candidates and issues either. So, I really don’t want some political operative to be able to just drop by your house, “help” you fill out your automatically mailed ballot, and then mail it for you.

          This plays into 3 as well. If you need more than a week to get your act together enough to vote, then I don’t really want your opinion influencing who has coercive power over me.

    5. 1. To prevent vote buying or harassing people based on their vote.
      2. Yes.
      3. Yes. Because some people cant make it on election day due to work, and we already have too long lines on election day.
      4. Yes. Current practices of individually numbered ballot envelopes, internet verification of the ballots arriving, and other current methods seem to be working fine.
      5. What we are currently doing seems to be fine. Voter ID only if it is make easy and free for every citizen to get an ID.
      6. No. Paper ballots only.
      7. All non-partisan.

      1. Buying votes can be done now in secret. And people already harass others for their political choices without proof anyways. Simply look at any given day in the mainstream media. I shouldn’t be but I;m amazed so many of you think you have a right to privacy when it comes to public matters.

      2. How do you define non-partisan?

        And why would “I don’t give a fuck who wins!” be better than “I’m so personally invested in the outcome!” when it comes to verifying paper ballots?

        1. Ooops the liberals are fighting again.

    6. 1. Yes
      2. Not sure on that one, never understood whey military could not vote in the district where they are based. If they are forward deployed the command would be responsible for running the voting and submitting the results. That would just leave nursing homes…but really if you are so far gone you can’t make it to a polling station should you be allowed to vote, do we let those in mental hospitals vote? If you can get on a bus, you can make it to the polling station. In my district elderly and disabled get moved to the front of the line but they still show up.
      3. Yes, and would actually extend it. never understood why so many are against them. As long as they have the same rules as election day. If they did reduce the days, then add much more polling stations.
      4. No, don’t trust them and all the arguments for them will never change my mind so don’t even try.
      5. Same that they require you to have to do most anything from flying to cashing a check to entering a federal building.
      6. The one I used was fine, it had a strip of paper that the minute you approved your selections it printed them out, you took them to a second machine that tabulated the vote and dropped the strip into a secure container if needed after for an audit.
      7. At least one from each major party but I would have them randomly chosen from around the county instead of those who may know and work with each other. I also would change the counting to secret until the final vote is counted no more of this dribs and drabs. Each county would wait until they are complete and then report them to the state and the state would not announce the count until all counties are in.

      1. 5. Same that they require you to have to do most anything from flying to cashing a check to entering a federal building.

        Well, I would say that the difference between those things, and requiring ID to vote, is that it is expressly illegal to require a poll tax to vote.

        1. So, change that law?

          1. You mean the 24th Amendment?

      2. And not everyone at a nursing home is completely decrepit. Some are recovering from surgeries like a hip replacement, or need extensive physical therapy after things like spinal injuries. I don’t think it is fair to write off voting for completely legal voters who simply don’t have the mobility to vote in person. If you don’t want absentee voting at all, then could you imagine some type of secure proxy voting system for this class of voters?

        1. Some are overweight, right fatty?

    7. Interesting questions, and worthy of discussion. But, since each State, under the constitution, decides, pretty much, which form of voting they use, isn’t it pretty much a moot point? As far as mail-in voting, I am a big fan. It saves me lots or time waiting in line just to ensure that my candidate will lose (voting 3rd-party 90% of the time, losing is pretty-much a given.) Oregon had 87 incidents of fraud in the 2018 election. Eighty-seven. Total.

      1. But, since each State, under the constitution, decides, pretty much, which form of voting they use, isn’t it pretty much a moot point?

        No, not at all! In fact our voices will be heard much more loudly at the state/local level when it comes to reforming election systems. IMO it is actually more constructive to discuss something that we have more of an opportunity to directly effect.

        And I agree with you when it comes to mail-in voting, it is very convenient.

        1. And I agree with you when it comes to mail-in voting, it is very convenient.
          Cheaters love it.

        2. You are correct, of course: the discussion need to take place at the State level, where it actually might mean something. But a lot of people just like to complain and blame rather than do anything about it.

    8. In Pennsylvania, the framework for voting (who can voter, where and how to vote) is in Article 7 of the PA Constitution and the details are in the election code.

      But the PA Supreme Court said, “Nah, that’s what you think it says. It really says what we say it says.”

      So go ahead and waste time coming up with your rules and plans, they’ll do what they want to do, and fuck you if you don’t like it.

    9. 1. Would you retain the secret ballot?

      Of course.

      2. Would you retain absentee voting in some form or fashion? If not, then how would you deal with situations of legitimate voters who can’t physically appear at the voting booth on election day (deployed soldiers, people in nursing homes/hospitals, citizens living abroad)? If so, then what security precautions would you insist upon?

      They use signatures now, right? I’d say that’s fine but I’d add that since signatures change over time, if they encounter one that doesn’t match they contact the voter rather than simply tossing the ballot in the bin.

      3. Would you retain early voting? Why or why not?

      Yes. There are minds that will not be changed. Look around!

      4. Would you support universal mail-in ballots? Why or why not? If so, what security precautions would you insist upon?

      What’s the difference between that and everyone deciding to vote absentee?

      5. For in-person voting, what identity verification procedures would you insist upon? If you would insist upon a state-issued photo ID, what steps (if any) do you think the state should take in order to facilitate voters acquiring that ID?

      I see it as a path to eliminating the secret ballot, which I vehemently oppose. And I really doubt that impersonation is as bad an issue as those who are using it as an excuse for losing claim.

      6. Do you support the use of voting machines *instead of* paper ballots? Do you support the use of voting machines *along with* paper ballots? Why or why not? If yes but conditionally, then under what conditions?

      Use machines to count paper ballots. That way you’ve got a paper trail when the loser refuses to admit defeat.

      7. In terms of ballot counting, how should the ballot counters be picked, and how should they be supervised?

      Like any other job with that level of trust and responsibility.

      1. I like how you dont consider for one second a) chain of custody, b) voter ID to register to vote.

        There are already investigations of people going to nursing homes and pre filling out ballots for them to sign. This was admitted to by one of the canvassers on the project Veritas video.

        Just admit you don’t care about voter integrity.

        Also not on Jeff’s list of questions is how to make voting auditable, change of address to clean up voters, dead voters, or how to maintain records of adjudicated ballots.

        You know the fucking issues with the last election.

        Your sophomoric views of everything are hilarious to watch.

        1. Also not on Jeff’s list of questions is how to make voting auditable, change of address to clean up voters, dead voters, or how to maintain records of adjudicated ballots.

          I didn’t claim to present an exhaustive list of every possible detail associated with voting systems.

          So instead of bitching about my list, why don’t you offer something constructive associated with the issues that are most pertinent to YOU.

          1. I did answer a question with a question…

          2. which you answered a minute later, oh wait you didn’t

      2. I largely agree with you, and I had not considered the possibility of requiring ID to vote to be a path to getting rid of the secret ballot.

        Unfortunately I think we are going to have mandatory national ID’s foisted upon us soon enough whether we like it or not. Both teams are more or less in favor of the idea and John Roberts will find a penaltax reason why it’s not a violation of the Fourth Amendment.

        1. We already have national IDs dude. They look different from state to state, but they conform to federal standards so what’s the difference.

          Voting must remain anonymous, and requiring ID to vote could so easily end that. Think about it from an Orwellian perspective.

          1. ID already required in many states, and still anonymous.

            Are you really this retarded? Are you Molly?

            1. I do not post under any other name.

    10. Just a suggestion. Give up sophistry.

      1. Why am I not surprised that you have nothing intelligent to offer to this conversation.

        1. I’m starting to think Tulpa has a retarded cousin in Arizona.

          1. Of course you think about me constantly, I turned you down and you havent stopped crying since.

            #sourgrapes

    11. 1. Yes. That’s paramount to a free society.

      2. Yes. But unless you’ve been pre-approved to vote in that fashion (with the list of reasons being pretty small), either you show up or you don’t vote. It cannot again be a situation in which most votes are mailed in. Piss on that shit. Not even for a pandemic. If you can protest, you can fucking vote.

      3. No.

      4. No. See above. If it’s important, you can show the fuck up. If you won’t show up, it can’t well be that important. Of course exceptions can and should be made, but those exceptions must be limited in scope, and verifiable. I’m okay with grandma in the retirement home sending in a ballot. I’m not okay with healthy people sending in ballots because they want to avoid a line. Show up or fuck off.

      5. Yes. State approved, picture ID of any kind from DL to CCW permit card. No ID? You can fuck right off. In this case all forms of state ID would necessarily need a way of identifying the eligibility to vote. Perhaps even a card specifically designed for voting. It’s “free”, has a picture, and is a guarantee that the person voting is eligible to do so.

      6. Ostensibly I’m okay with voting machines. But I think there needs to be strict accountability (I.e., we can’t use voting machines from a company owned by political operatives) or with any connection to politics outside of the machines. The owner’s wife is a dem pol? Next in line. No connection to politics. If that’s not possible/feasible, then paper only.

      7. Tough one. There’s a shitload of planning and logistics involved. But every vote is counted by at least 2 separate people. Perhaps even those in opposing parties. Person A notes the vote, person B immediately verifies it. Not on a recount. Not later in a second count. Right then. If you pair people from opposing parties, and make them verify each other’s count as it happens, it closes lots of room for fraud. If there’s a discrepancy, it gets moved up the chain for a different pair of vote verifiers.

      1. Why not early voting? I don’t quite understand the objection to that.

        Also I like your idea of instantaneous duplicate counting of the votes.

        I’m not okay with healthy people sending in ballots because they want to avoid a line.

        Well, people do have jobs and other commitments.

        1. And voting is important enough to eschew those. But fuck it, let’s make it a national holiday.

      2. Why is secret voting paramount to a free society?

        1. Keeps the winners from kicking in the doors of the people who voted “wrong”.
          How do you find your way home at night?

          1. So as long as I say I didn’t vote for trump I would be safe from the left because they wouldn’t know. Has that been working for people that say they support Trump but offer no other proof than wearing T shirts or waving flags. Believing that somehow hiding my vote is what keeps me safe is a foolish thing. Those same people would come after you without voting proof. Their proof is whatever they feel, or think. It doesn’t have to have a lick of truth to it. If they don’t think you fit the party line, youll be disposed of. what keeps you safe? Nothing truly, but keeping weapons and training yourself in their use is at least a way to try. My way home at night. I I follow my nose for dinner.

        2. Would you want the liberal mob to know you voted for Trump right now? Or you okay with losing your job because you were reported as a white supremacist 13k times?

          1. If we live in a society where people having verifiable proof of the person you voted for means that you have to live in fear of reprisal, then we definitely don’t live in a free society. We don’t get to act like this in a “civilzed society”. I voted trump in 2016 and I dont care what others know. there is a bigger principle here. If we live under a social contract, that means we supposedly both agreed to the rules. You don’t get to make secret decisions in a contract i signed with you. I get to know about descisions you make regarding my life. As in my reply to dont look at me. These people don’t care about anything other than what they want. You voting for any other candidate means nothing to these people. The only thing that matters is what they believe and how much your willing to bow to their demands. Both those things you mention already happen to people simply for saying good things about trump. You think it will really make a difference to them if they actually knew you voted for him. Theyll treat you the same either way. Cattle car and gas. Work and reeducation camps or outright execution. Its how these people work.

          2. i forgot to mention. We supposedly all enter society and give up some of our rights or restrict them in certain ways and in return gain others from the joining of society. But you wouldn’t join society if you knew your decisions about your life could simply be erased by the lies or cheating of others or simply omission of your vote by accident. Your voice in society shouldn’t have that much say over others lives anyways, but they should know that their part in society and that self determination matters. Others don’t get to hide their desires and intentions and rule your life through secret orders. If you think this election was fair, then by all means continue to support secret ballots where we can be unsure of who actually is voting, it theyre even a real person, if you’re vote was even counted. Every voter has that right. I contend you have no right to hide you decisions relating to decisions affecting my life without my knowledge. As well that I demand to know that only those of us who have agreed to these rules actually get to have a say, and that my voice won’t be taken away or silenced. To believe so otherwise is an usurpation of an individuals right to life and his her rights.

            1. One needn’t have open verification of individual people to verify that an individual vote was cast for a particular candidate.

              1. If you cant verify your vote to me then you cant prove you voted. Why do care about id to vote but dont care about the ability to verify that vote after its been cast. A citizen should be able to track their vote as well as others to verify the legitimacy of the vote. If even one voter feels that their vote was diluted violated etc… why would they “willingly” join society. So they can be ignored disenfranchised or oppressed?

    12. None of the above.

      The older I get, the more I think universal suffrage moves us further down the path to two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner. Only, in reality, most people are the sheep and only the politicians are the wolves.

      Whatever system we put in place, they will figure out how to game it. I think the only voting change I would like t see is one where only people who will pay a tax vote on whether to approve it.

      1. “I think the only voting change I would like t see is one where only people who will pay a tax vote on whether to approve it.”

        That sounds great if your goal is to “starve the beast” and have government be so limited as to fit the libertarian ideal.

        Like it or not, all people will have to pay taxes for things that they don’t want the government to do, and most will pay more than they think they should, precisely because of that. Paying for government is a social responsibility of all people that live, work, or even just visit that government’s jurisdiction, because there is always something that government will do that will benefit each person.

        There is no perfect tax structure where only the people that benefit from the spending will end up paying the tax, and thus be able to consider the cost/benefit of the tax like they would buying something at a store. Likewise, there will always be people that do benefit from a government action that will not pay a tax directly to fund that action.

        We will always be paying taxes as a package for large chunks of what the government does. Even gas taxes that mostly go to funding roads and highways actually benefit people that never drive, because it facilitates the transportation of goods and services that they will use. That tax will be passed to consumers via the price of those goods and services, so everyone is affected by the tax rate, even if they don’t pay it directly.

        What we really need, in terms of taxing and spending, is to find ways to stop incentivizing our legislators to promise us more than we are willing to pay for. Everyone wants something from government, and they would likely be willing to pay for that, but they definitely don’t want to pay for what other people are demanding. So everyone fights for taxes to be higher on other people to pay for what they want, for spending to be less if benefits other people, and for future generations to pay the inevitable shortfall.

        If you really want to know why federal debt got out of control, it is because the voters on both sides won’t hold their own side accountable for the failure to balance the budget. Nor will they allow their side to cut the spending that benefits them, or that they believe is necessary for the country in other ways. Nor will they allow them to raise taxes on them when the budget can’t be balanced with all of this other gridlock going on.

        I don’t know how to fix things, but recognizing where the failures are really occurring is a starting point.

    13. I’m on the fence about the secret ballot. Robert LeFevre thought it a bad thing that we couldn’t tell who to credit or blame for election results.

      I’m not sure whether it would be a good or bad thing to have accountability to each other for our votes. Maybe pressure on each other to vote a certain way is a good thing, maybe a bad one. Like, why shouldn’t we be able to shun, criticize, or boycott people for voting wrong? Why shouldn’t we be able to pay people for voting right? I don’t know which way produces better results, anonymity or responsibility.

      1. Like, why shouldn’t we be able to shun, criticize, or boycott people for voting wrong?
        Why bother voting if the “correct” vote is preordained by your betters?

      2. “Maybe pressure on each other to vote a certain way is a good thing”

        Cripes!

        1. It’s getting depressing here.

    14. 1. Yes.
      2. Yes – I support absentee votes, even aside from people serving the government or military overseas for extended periods. There are always people that would be burdened far beyond the typical voter to be required to show up to a polling location in person.
      Follow up on security – This is something that I would want studied and researched on what is both secure and reliable with current technology, so I am not prepared to say what I would “insist upon” at this time. Expecting someone that is not a handwriting expert to do signature matching sounds unreliable to me, in both directions. I wouldn’t want a vote tossed because it doesn’t look right to person that has to look at hundreds or even thousands of signatures in a day, just like I wouldn’t want a vote accepted that was signed by someone other than the voter. And I don’t know how accurate and reliable software is now.

      Whatever security for absentee ballots is adopted, it should be based on being very highly accurate and reliable at catching ballots not filled out by the voter and not falsely indicating that the ballot was filled out by someone else.

      3. Yes – Early voting is necessary as long as elections are going to take place without it being some kind of holiday where all but a few businesses and essential services are closed. If absentee voting is included, then two weeks should be enough, but I am not opposed to up to four weeks of early voting. Also, all 7 days of the week need to be included with the same hours each day.

      4. Depends on the acceptance of 2. and 3. If absentee voting is secure and does not require a specific reason, then that becomes universal enough that people would have the choice of what is convenient for them. I would not, however, want to see a system that only used ballots mailed to homes. I do think that mail ballots should be specifically requested in advance.

      5. ID – An ID is fine to require, but it should be fairly flexible about what IDs are accepted. If the idea is to prevent someone from showing up to a polling location and claiming to be a specific registered voter that they are not, then most IDs would be fine for that. IDs issued to students of colleges or universities, by government employers, any government agency, etc., would work. It may not even need a photo if it is otherwise obviously valid. If it does have a photo, I would not disallow it if was expired, either. Texas, for instance, required a limited number of state or federal government issued IDs, and they couldn’t be expired by more than a few months.

      As for what steps should the state make to get IDs to eligible voters, well, that is crucial. If the state decides to accept only a limited number of IDs, then it on them to be very sure that everyone can conveniently get them. That will mean: offices that issue the IDs being open more and more flexible hours, more locations, state and county record offices being better staffed and funded for people to be able to get things like certified copies of birth certificates if they don’t have them. And all of that needs to be very low-cost with no unnecessary hurdles.

      6. No to voting machines instead of paper ballots. While I have trust that technology can be made secure and reliable enough, there always should be a back up method to verify. I am fine with a voter entering their choices on a machine where it then prints them a hard copy of their choices that they look over and give to the officials as the paper record to be checked if errors are suspected. Or, just having the ballot marked by the voter and then run through a scanner like most do now is fine too.

      7. With ballot counting not being a full time, full year job, I would suggest a mix of repurposing other government clerical staff for a few days and temp workers. I think that existing government workers and those that applied to be temps should be part of a pool that will be randomly selected and then trained for however much time is appropriate before the counting starts.

      Supervision of those doing the counting should be mostly by career election staff that know the procedures, equipment, and the laws. Partisan and non-partisan “poll watchers” should be permitted, of course, but their roles should be clearly defined with the parties being responsible to properly train them on what they can and cannot do, what to expect to observe, how the counting will take place, etc. I think that a big part of the issue with this election was with the large numbers of partisan poll watchers that really didn’t know how things are supposed to work, so they then might have seen something as indicating ‘fraud’ that absolutely is not.

      My issue with how the right has handled election security questions over the last couple of decades is that they put far, far more emphasis on fears of fraud than they do about whether eligible voters can vote and have their votes count. Ballot security and ballot access are equally important to being able to trust that elections are free, fair, and open. People cannot point to the bad old days of corrupt machine politics with dead people voting in Chicago or wherever and then not acknowledge the history of outright denying Blacks their rights to vote for a hundred years.

    15. 1. Would you retain the secret ballot?
      Absolutely

      2. Would you retain absentee voting in some form or fashion?
      Absentee voting yes, for those reasons. Mail in voting without a genuine hardship, no.
      Ballots would be numbered, watermarked and security threaded. The envelope would be sealed and signed by the absentee voter.

      3. Would you retain early voting? Why or why not?
      No, for far too many reasons to list. Election day would be a statutory holiday or whatever their called in the US.

      4. Would you support universal mail-in ballots? Why or why not? If so, what security precautions would you insist upon?
      No. They’re fraud personified. It’s near impossible to ensure their security.

      5. For in-person voting, what identity verification procedures would you insist upon? If you would insist upon a state-issued photo ID, what steps (if any) do you think the state should take in order to facilitate voters acquiring that ID?
      Virtually everyone has photo ID. You need it to open a bank account, pay with a credit card, own a car, buy a gun, get hospital care, etc.
      I think it’s a non issue.

      6. Do you support the use of voting machines *instead of* paper ballots? Do you support the use of voting machines *along with* paper ballots? Why or why not? If yes but conditionally, then under what conditions?
      No, voting machines are perhaps the stupidest thing the US has ever done. They’re far too susceptible to shenanigans.
      Most countries don’t use them for obvious reasons including mine.

      Because a substantial number of voters thought that the 2000, 2004, 2016 and 2020 elections were frauded, the next election needs to restore the voters faith, or the US is done.
      Turf voting machines and go strictly hand-marked paper ballots with fluorescing dyes, security threads, watermarks and serial numbers. In-person voting with strong criteria for absentee votes. Dip fingers in voter ink. Counting will be televised and streamed with overhead cameras.

      7. In terms of ballot counting, how should the ballot counters be picked, and how should they be supervised?
      Ballot counting should be done publicly in arenas and auditoriums under overhead cameras streaming and broadcasting the process.

      1. Mother’s Lament,

        How do you reconcile the obvious conflict in your responses to 2. and 4.? Absentee ballots are not different in procedural detail than universal mail in ballots, except for 3 things: The only differences are whether a person would have to request a ballot, perhaps give a valid reason, and how many ballots would end up in the system that would have to be counted. If absentee ballots can be made secure, then why not mail ballots for everyone else?

        5. “Virtually everyone has photo ID.” Virtually everyone is not everyone. Voting is a fundamental right in a country with democratic elections for its government leaders in a way that opening a checking account is not. It is an issue if even a small number of eligible voters face barriers to obtaining a valid ID that other voters do not. When the legislators that demand photo ID laws also work hard to make obtaining that ID easy for the few adult citizens that don’t have one, then I’ll believe that they want election security.

        1. re #5: Then they can cast a provisional ballot. It won’t count until ID is verified.

          1. That would mean that the voter would have to come back to an office when it was open in order to provide the ID credentials that are allowed. That is an extra burden compared to those that have the allowed ID already. What needs to be guarded against is when the partisan legislatures allow IDs that their voters almost always have, while the other side’s voters might lack those forms of ID in larger numbers.

            If 3% of Team A’s voters don’t have one of the allowed IDs, but 6% of Team B’s voters lack those IDs, then that is an Equal Protection problem.

    16. I think we should move to a universal online voting system that retains ballot secrecy while enabling each voter to verify his or her vote. Of course, this is a very difficult problem, because those two requirements work against each other. The most promising approach seems to be mixnets, though it will still take years to work out. One silver lining in the cloud of all these voter fraud allegations is that we will hopefully get some real movement on this in the near future.

    17. You forgot one: no Democrats are allowed to be poll workers.

      (anybody with a history of fraud should not be counting ballots, of course)

      1. “You forgot one: no Democrats are allowed to be poll workers.

        (anybody with a history of fraud should not be counting ballots, of course)”

        Okay, I get that. How about we make it easy and say that no one convicted of a felony be allowed to be a poll worker? Election fraud is a felony, so that would cover it.

        When people are convicted by a jury of their peers with evidence that meets the state’s burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, then we can say that they have committed election fraud. Until you even have enough evidence that would allow for specific people to be investigated for that kind of crime, let alone convicted, you are just being a ridiculous ass laying that kind of charge on all “Democrats”.

        How about we put anyone wearing a MAGA hat on no-fly lists because of the storming of the Capitol building? That work for you? It doesn’t work for me, so I don’t think your statement is worth anything either.

    18. One possibility: establish a voting system that works rather like credit cards. 0.075% of dollars spent through credit cards worldwide are fraudulent transactions. If we can keep voter fraud to that level, I think we’d have a pretty secure system. And those transactions are made in person, through the mail, on phones and over the internet.

    19. Serious answer : copy Australia.

      Maybe in a US context, a universal national photo ID is needed. Australia does without ID documentation at elections, but the society is not the same, so a free, easily obtained ID issued to every person turning 18 to automatically register them to vote is probably needed in the US.

      But the other questions are answered.

      An independent electoral commission is the key.

      Voting machines that have formally provable software, source published on the net, COTS hardware inspected for trapdoors in chips and BIOS. Most voters still prefer paper ballots, so they can use those instead. It’s mostly the vision impaired who use the machines so they can vote in secret.

      A national holiday for elections. Australia just does them on weekends. Votes can be cast in pre polls on any day of the week with a good excuse. A pandemic is a good excuse.

      Australia has compulsory voting, so voting has to be made really easy. It is however everyone’s right to deface their ballot with “none of the above!”, dick pix etc.

      The voting machines don’t provide dick pic capability – the electoral commission determined the additional expense was unjustified – but do allow casting of deliberately “informal” votes for nobody. That was an essential requirement.

      To answer in more detail would take volumes. But you get the gist.

  11. It is now after 7PM EST, Sunday, January 10, 2021.

    Reason, supposed “Libertarian” site, has yet to comment on Big Tech working in conjunction with the Democratic party to stifle “unapproved” thought and prevent access to sites they cannot control.

    Reason told us to “create your own site” as alternatives to Facebook and Twitter. What does Reason have to say now that said argument has been blown to smithereens?

    Is Reason going to comment at all, or is it going to besmirch the libertarian name while Jacob writes yet ANOTHER TDS riddled article? Will Reason only “care” once the powers-that-be decide that this site is no longer on the “approved” list?

    1. Prepare for a world with no thoughtcrime.

    2. Google is not “preventing” access to Parler. It does not have the power to do so.

      1. No.

        But Amazon does, and they’ve cut Parler off of their backend servers.

        If you can’t see what’s going on, you’re willfully blind.

        1. Well as I wrote below, I think it is a much more likely explanation that these moves are about limiting Google/AWS/Apple’s potential legal liability for unintentionally facilitating a seditionist riot. They’re not banning all conservatives, they are banning the seditionist crowd.

          If Trump had won and there was a seditionist Antifa riot that stormed the Capitol, they’d be doing the same thing with banning the seditionist Antifa crowd.

          It’s way more about covering their own asses, more than furthering some ideological pogrom against conservatives.

          1. …..banning the seditionist Antifa crowd.
            Hasn’t happened yet.

            1. They also haven’t stormed the US Capitol building.

              1. I thought they were just an idea?

              2. No. They only destroyed thousands of buildings, including courthouses, both federal and state, as well as police stations, thousands more cars, and had non-stop rioting for several months in dozens of cities nationwide. They ruined an untold number of lives.

                That’s all.

                1. But never enter the sacred halls and sit at the desk of our exalted leaders! It’s blasphemy!

                  1. Well, it’s certainly dumb as fuck.

                    Yeah attack the people who write all the laws. And miss.

                    Imagine what they could accomplish if they were literate.

              3. No, just lit 200 fires and damaged 40 other federal buildings in their Washington riot.

                The ones who stormed the US Capitol building were the Kavanagh protesters… who caused far more damage than Orange Hitler’s minions BTW.

                1. So your solution to Trump’s minions is to punish other people harder?

              4. Democrats legalized peaceful protesting, so nothing wrong with that.

          2. Should Google/AWS/Apple be forced to host they find abhorrent? How is this different from forcing someone to bake a cake?

            1. GOOGLE/AWS/APPLE ARE PRO SLAVERY!

              They allow pro-slavery CCP on their platforms. They allow dictators that torture and maim dissidents. So by implication they are pro-slavery and pro-torture.

          3. What liability? I thought the argument was that Section 230 shielded them from liability for what users post. It is amazing how that conveniently disappears when the argument calls for it.

          4. Don’t forget plain old protecting their brand.

    3. The far right still has the loathsome Stormfront. No one has shut it down.

      1. No one’s shut down Stormfront”

        Yes they did, twice.
        https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/28/another-neo-nazi-site-stormfront-is-shut-down/?guccounter=1

        You’re so amazingly ignorant. How do you even function?

    4. well, you didnt create your own site. someone created it and used a big tech company to host it.

      so they can get their own servers and host it. but sorry, this fall under individual property, next time dont set you tent up on someone elses land and get pissed when they decide to do some landscaping.

      1. First of all, Reason doesn’t give two shits about “individual property” or “property rights”. Just read some of the articles posted here from the Spring and Summer of Love (I recall one such article referring to CHAZ/CHOP as a test in self-governance).

        Second of all, Parler effectively being shut down didn’t happen in isolation. It’s a coordinated effort between the Democratic party and Big Tech. Reason told us that anyone who didn’t like Twitter could go start their own platform, and dismissed concerns over Big Tech colluding with each other to stymie conservative opinions. Well, today is here, and oddly enough Reason has gone deathly silent on the subject. Parler did exactly as Reason said they should, so I’m curious a to the writer’s responses.

        Chances are they’ll just shift the goalposts. It’s going to be interesting when Reason ends up in the leftist chopping block.

        1. https://reason.com/2020/06/10/seattle-protesters-establish-autonomous-zone-outside-evacuated-police-precinct/

          Correction; of CHOP/CHAZ, Reason said it was “vaguely encouraging to see people try to set up their own self-governing enclave in the vacuum left by the police’s withdrawal”.

          Which is extremely kind.

          1. …to seditious behavior.

      2. “bUiLd y0uR oWn iNtErNeT”

        You do realize after the Democrats and the oligarchs are done dismantling the threats to their right, they’re going after the left, who are currently eagerly handing the oligarchs the tools of their own destruction.

        If the left had a brain they would’ve noticed that Parler doesn’t have the ability to support groups. Most of the MAGA arrangements happened on Facebook, not Parler.
        What Amazon, Google and Apple are claiming happened, couldn’t have actually happened. The whole thing is a fiddle.

        Parler is going to sue Amazon, Google and Apple for millions, and win. But Amazon, Google and Apple won’t give a shit and can afford it.

        Silencing opposition voices is far more important to them. This year it’s the right. Next year it’ll be the Bernie bros. The year after that it’ll be anyone who gets in their way.

        1. That third year is when the crocodile eats Reason.

      3. That just means those companies are totes cool with known slavers on their platform (CCP).

        Glad to know the values of the liberal mind.

    5. I’m on board with the idea that private parties should be free to do as they please with their own property.

      I’m not sure that what these companies are doing doesn’t amount to collusion, which may not be libertarian or capitalist at all.

      “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices…. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies, much less to render them necessary.”

      —-Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations

      https://lpmaryland.org/liberty-quotation-adam-smith-collusion/

      There are a number of aspects of that quote that may apply to this situation, especially the one about conspiring against the public.

      It seems to me that the case against Parler and the free hand these big tech companies feel they have to do this to them is specifically because Trump lost the election and the Democrats took control of the senate. They’re trying to prevent conservatives from organizing–that’s the point of canceling Parler. Some of these big tech companies are now under active investigation by Biden’s Justice Department under the guise of antitrust, and the Democrats have made it abundantly clear that they expect companies like Facebook and Google to censor and deplatform conservative voices.

      In other words, it isn’t clear, to this libertarian, anyway, that rolling over for this is the only libertarian position at all. The legitimate purpose of libertarian small government is to protect our rights, and IF IF IF government antitrust actions have a legitimately libertarian purpose, they would only be to protect our rights from precisely this kind of collusion.

      That the Democrats are using antitrust as a means to encourage collusion in this way may be seen as like a case of police brutality: The legitimate purpose of the police is to protect our rights from criminals–not to violate our rights with police brutality. There isn’t anything libertarian about using the police to violate people’s rights with police brutality, and there may not be anything libertarian about the Democrats violating people’s rights with the powers of congress and antitrust law either.

      1. It seems to me that the case against Parler and the free hand these big tech companies feel they have to do this to them is specifically because Trump lost the election and the Democrats took control of the senate.

        Or, it could possibly be that these companies want to avoid liability for being unintentionally complicit in the next seditionist raid which is already being planned for Inauguration Day.

        The legitimate purpose of libertarian small government is to protect our rights

        Which rights precisely are you asserting are being violated here? Are you asserting that app developers have a right to have their app appear in Google’s app store without Google’s permission?

        1. Parler doesn’t have the ability to support groups.
          All the MAGA arrangements happened on Facebook, not Parler.
          What Amazon, Google and Apple are claiming happened, couldn’t have actually happened. The whole thing is a fiddle.

          Parler is going to sue Amazon, Google and Apple for millions, and win. But Amazon, Google and Apple won’t give a shit and can afford it.

          Sometime in the next for years you’re going to wake up and realize that you’re never going to be an inner party member, no matter how hard you shill. But it’ll be too late for you by then.
          They’ll hang you right next to us.

          1. No, people like chemjeff want to be programmed and told they’re Good for being on the right side of history.
            He won’t be canceled because he’ll adopt whatever moral dogma he’s instructed to adopt.
            People like chemjeff are who they get to clean the showers after each day’s mass cleansing.

        2. “Or, it could possibly be that these companies want to avoid liability for being unintentionally complicit in the next seditionist raid which is already being planned for Inauguration Day.”

          Where did the Section 230 protections from liability for user’s posts? Has anyone seen those pesky protections?

        3. But you’ve assured everyone that 230 provides them protection from liability, so what do they have to fear?

      2. Some of these big tech companies are now under active investigation by Biden’s Justice Department under the guise of antitrust, and the Democrats have made it abundantly clear that they expect companies like Facebook and Google to censor and deplatform conservative voices.

        This is where I’m at too. BigTech saw the way the wind is blowing, and caved just as fast as they could, giving dems everything they’ve been complaining about. They want conservative thought banished from the internet, and they’re working together to make sure it happens so that these antitrust cases might just go away.

        1. Right?

          There’s no reason for them to fear Trump or the Republicans–at least for the next two years. And two years from now, the antitrust case will be settled with a consent decree already.

        2. They want conservative thought banished from the internet

          You do realize that there is tons of conservative thought, right now, that has not been banished from the Internet?

          I think it’s way too conspiratorial to think that this is about “banning conservatives”. It’s about limiting their own potential legal liability for unintentionally facilitating a seditionist riot. They’re not going after every conservative. Last I checked, Twitter doesn’t ban you for advocating for tax cuts or banning abortions. They are going after the sedition crowd.

          1. Suppression of thoughtcrime. Ideas are dangerous.
            But “Defund the police” is not a dangerous idea , because shut up.

          2. “…I think it’s way too conspiratorial to think that this is about “banning conservatives”…”

            Does not require a conspiracy, no more than CNN/NBC/CBS/WaPo/NYT conspire; shared derangement syndrome and a hive mind will suffice.

          3. Do you realize that we’re literally only 2 days in to this purge, Biden’s administration hasn’t even officially taken control of the government yet, and the talking heads and media elite are both cheering it on, and juicing for more of it?

            This is EXACTLY what Democrats have been DEMANDING for years. It started with phoney “fact checks”, “missing context”, and other algorithm fuckery. A legitimate newspaper story was completely blocked from social media circulation, and blackballed by the entirety of the mainstream press, via transparent collusion, simply because it hurt might team blue in the election. Now we have the complete de-platforming of Parler, with all 4 of the major social media companies, and Amazon, acting in concert to suppress speech by Americans. You cannot utter a word on any social media platform right now that might question the integrity or results of the election without being flagged, blocked, or banned. Not even reasoned, non-conspiratorial conversation that doesn’t touch “sedition” in any capacity is allowed to survive unmolested by the official narrative, if it survives at all. And the one platform you could do these things, was literally vanished overnight.

            Fuck you and your “They’ve only banned this one thing!” bullshit. These companies have literally given in to Democrat demands on silencing speech they don’t like under the guise of “encouraging sedition.” All of these social media platforms did nothing for months as the lives of untold numbers of people were being ruined by rioters. Ones who used their platforms to plan and commit their violence.

            You need to sit the fuck down and re-evaluate some shit if you think this is okay.

          4. I love how certain commenters complain that Reason does not support free speech, when this is the only comment section that will have them. The irony is delicious.

            1. Conservatives don’t want free speech. They want compelled speech.

              They’re no different than the people they hate for forcing bakeries to make cakes.

              1. None of them called for the government to do a damn thing here sarc, so no, that’s not the same thing.

    6. Was thinking the same, 50 articles on Trump and his lawyers but nothing on this. The scariest is Apple and Amazon. Apple because apparently you cannot install the app unless it is from them (one more reason not to get an iPhone) and Amazon for turning off their servers in the middle of a weekend with barely any notice.
      Hopefully Parley can get in front of a competent federal judge first thing Monday and get an injunction against Amazon. Don’t see how what they did will pass legal muster. I assume they have a contract and unless they did something illegal then there is no excuse for this. Hopefully they can get damages as well.
      This should scare the pants off of everyone, that they could coordinate an attack like this and get away with it. watched an interview with the head of Parley and apparently he cannot find another service to replace Amazon, they are all stating that because the big guys won’t service them they can’t either. If that is not monopoly power don’t know what is. I hope my state AG is taking notes.

    7. The suppression of their online platforms will only fuel their conspiracy theories.

      They’d have little reason to worry about conspiracy theories around who’s controlling the country from DC if they didn’t see the politicization of our entire lives moving forward with no sign of stopping.

      But that would require leaving them alone.

      1. At some point, the big tech companies being out to get them stopped being a conspiracy theory and became a fact.

        1. Im not all the way there yet, but I’m close.

  12. Almost as if it was bullshit the whole time and the only idiots dumb enough to believe it also charged the Capitol.

  13. I look forward to the SleepyJoe regime where there will be no dissenting voices heard.

  14. 1.No-All votes should be public information. You should be able to see who’s registered, who voted and whom they voted for.
    2.. I would rather people vote in person so they can visibly see the process and verfiy what’s going on .That being said Mail in voting is fine if it’s carefully controlled. Not everybody can always access the polls . But again without a voter database the potential for fraud is too high. All voters must register ahead of time. How much is flexible but it should be more than less. They will receive back a copy of their registration in paper. The ballot they cast has either a carbon copy or a duplicate non castable ballot that the voter marks to show what they chose. Ballots have unique identifer numbers as a second form of identification. The voter marks what they want and sends it in. A copy of the ballot must copied and returned to the voter. Ballots envelopes must be dropped in specific ballot boxes which will be camera monitored 24/7. if the ballot isn’t returned as marked and numbers don’t match then ballots would be rejected. Of course this depends on mail carriers not throwing ballots out.
    3. Early voting is fine. I would like people to vote even earlier, maybe three months prior to elections. Crazy how this shit is done now.
    4. No. People should be free to choose how they would like to vote.
    5. I actually think you could get around a drivers license or state issued id if you could show credentials for citizenship and age. It’s just that that helps simplify the matter. I dont believe that governments have the right to mandate licenses to drive, nor do i like the idea of state identifcation mandation, but if it solves the issue of voter identification and verfication, so be it.
    6.there should always be a paper copy. And of course all votes are public domain so we can check these. But the voter should have a copy of his/her results to show the proof of what they wanted. People should have complete faith their vote is what they say it is.
    7. Ballot counting should consist of multiple people under camera supervision. They should identify from at least three different parties, though that could be frauded. Counting will only happen between certain hours and only with close public scrutiny, The way this shit was done this election was a complete fraud to american voters.. Honestly if voting is public information and copies are retained, there really wouldn’t be any issues like there were in Georgia.

    The most important point thing to remember is we supposedly live under a social contract. That somehow we all agree to these rules. By voting a person expresses their part of the contract, their voice and what they believe should affect their life. the second a vote is damaged, lost, cheated you’ve completely usurped that person rights and life. I never actually signed that contract, nor has anyone asked me what I think. It’s all tacit consent bullshit. Im just supposed to vote and hope that this tyrannical thing called “Democracy” where majorities get what they want and can do whatever they want, doesn’t cause me to be in the minority and have my rights crushed. If your vote has an effect on me then I get to know who voted and for whom. You don’t get hide decisions made about me. If we’re signing a contract, I get to know all the conditions that affect both of us. Read Lysander Spooner “No Treason, Constitution of no authortiy” about contracts voting and taxes. It really spells out the horrible flaws of government and voting. As well as you get to read Lysander spooner. Always a great libertarian choice.

    1. No-All votes should be public information. You should be able to see who’s registered, who voted and whom they voted for.
      Makes it easy to round up the people who voted “wrong”.
      Idiot.

      1. Believing they won’t come after or find you because you “vote was secret and they dont have a list” is idiotic.

        1. A good bit less idiotic than your idiocy; your neighbors could come after you under what you propose.
          I propose you grow up.

          1. Your neighbors can do that now, like in portland or anywhere else a mob attacked people not wven having to do with voting. Do you think people that suffered and died under Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Pol Pot, Mao ever thought they would be outed or classified. They never expected that they would be swept away without proof of dissent or disagreement. Theh didnt even have to be in the public eye. People dont need verifiable proof to do so. I dont believe in gun registries or licensing or background, but i do believe that verifying only the people who agree to a particular societies laws hvae a right to vote and that others have a right to check to make sure that only those who agree to those laws can vote. I guess we all get to enjoy the unverifiable fraud of the Biden presidency and the tyranny of destroying or cancelling others voices and votes. Im sure youll enjoy that as much as i will sevo.

          2. Yes, but you could also go after your neighbors for how they voted. Why assume tools will be used only by the bad guys?

            1. Uh, what?

              There is no good guy who might come to any conclusion of me or my character based on who I voted for. All of those people are bad guys.

              Never use the ring.

            2. I sincerely hope no one ever lets you have any power of anything.

  15. At some point, we need to have a conversation about whether a two party system is a good sandbox to create a civil war in.

    1. If you want to have that conversation, you can build your own website, which the powers that be will then ban for totally normal free market reasons

      1. Maybe we should change the First Amendment so that it states:

        “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Congress shall, however, make a law to ensure that every person has a social media account on each of the top social media websites.”

        1. How about “No agency or officeholder of the federal government shall conspire with, cajole or threaten private institutions in order to suppress free speech”?

  16. Only 10 days left for you fake libertarian Block Yomommatards to vent your spleens. Get it all of your systems!

    1. IF IF IF and when Biden packs the Supreme Court, institutes the Green New Deal, and comes after our gun rights like we’ve never seen before, how will they walk all this back?

      The progressive axe is about to fall hard, on libertarians especially. If it isn’t abundantly clear already–the only way to avoid the axe was to have voted for Trump, and the only way to make them stop chopping us to bits will be to vote for Republicans two years from now.

      Swing of the axe!

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOWf8uqGf8A

      They better get on the right side of history soon. A couple of weeks from now, there won’t be any way to walk this back. Maybe they plan to start defending the socialism and authoritarianism to come?! It’s time to stop pretending that Trump and the Republicans were the enemy.

      1. Probably hoping for too much, but when they try to take peoples guns I hope those people decide use those guns and throw those people out of office. but since we have slowly accepted control of our rights and weapons, I can imagine how it will actually go. Not well.

        1. What Biden is promising is far worse than what Clinton did–and drove support for the militia movement.

          If Biden really goes through with his promises, I’d expect the reaction will be even bigger than the militia movement in the 90s.

          1. I hope. People always seem to cower to tyrants. Trump seemed to have sparked something in the republican base, effectively making them trumpists since they seemed to have rejected those republicans that didn’t support trump. I hope they have stones to back up their concerns. Cause they certainly havent fought hard in the past for gun rights or against abortion or religious freedom as much as they claim to care about them. But for libertarians and other third parties, the trumpists may be our only ally if the left really does try all the horrid shit they want to implement.

            1. In the past Conservatives were pacified by this phrase: “we need to beat them at the ballot box, have faith in our great system!”

              That phrase no longer has meaning.

          2. As long as the government and/or corporations are doing everything possible to banish conservatives from the internet, you can bet that we’ll have a newfound militia movement. And with good reason.

            People will be heard, and if you take away their means to participate in public discussion, the means of communication will change, and it won’t be pretty. And that’s exactly what the last 2 days is starting.

            1. Silencing your critics always had the same result all throughout history, pretty much without exception, but this time it’s gonna be different because Joe Biden cares about people!

              1. Right. You can voice your opinions via speech, or you can do it via other means, very few of which are better than just plain old words, especially when it’s because your ability to speak openly has been taken from you.

                This is NOT a good development if you crave any future that doesn’t involve escalating violence.

                People will not be silenced. Try, and they’ll speak in other ways.

                1. Let them go to a street corner and speak nonsense like crazy people who know their place do.

                  You don’t have a leg to stand on. One, they’re private companies. You people have spent an enormous amount of your lives explaining why that means they don’t have to be hounded by government to go against their ethics or bottom line.

                  You have to admit you’re a raging hypocrite first, and then maybe someone will hear you out on your newfound love of socialism and compelled speech.

                2. Two, all the major companies are censoring them because they plotted and carried out an act of war on the United States.

                  Twitter doesn’t have to be complicit in the destruction of the country that lets it exist. Any more complicit than it already is, I mean.

                  1. Multiple companies conspiring to remove a competitor (Parler) is called an anti-trust violation.

                    Textbook example of illegal anti-competitive practices.

      2. Sarcasmic will happily clap.

    2. And they say I drink too much.

  17. Sullum is in denial about the massive evidence of voter fraud.

    Here in PA, tens (and probably hundreds) of thousands of mail in ballots for Biden were counted that unlawfully
    – did NOT contain matching signatures,
    – did NOT contain resembling signatures,
    – did NOT contain any signature,
    – did NOT contain a postmark prior to the election,
    – did NOT contain any postmark,
    – did NOT contain the required outside envelope,
    – were NOT submitted prior to election day,
    – were submitted by dead people,
    – were submitted by people who had moved from the address, and
    – were submitted by people who cast multiple ballots.

    Real libertarians oppose the theft of elections.

    1. Pa threw away voting envelopes despite state law requiring them to be kept for 2 years.

      Sullum also has to comment on the electors clause and its violation through court and executive changes to voting laws.

      1. Pa threw away voting envelopes despite state law requiring them to be kept for 2 years.

        You have evidence for this claim?

        1. You sure on that? In Oklahoma, I had three envelopes (1) the mailing envelope, (2) an affidavit envelope to which I attached a scan of my driver’s license, and (3) the ballot envelope. Since I took my ballot to the election board, they received it, made me sign and verified my identity by my actual driver’s license.

      2. Explain the legal reasoning behind your apparent belief that Donald Trump gets to be president despite by all legal indications losing the election by millions of votes and failing to supply a single shred of evidence in 60 lawsuits.

        We have 10 days until the new president has to be inaugurated. You gonna have a redo before then, or should we just suspend the constitution indefinitely until former president Trump gets to the bottom of things?

    2. “Here in PA, tens (and probably hundreds) of thousands of mail in ballots for Biden were counted that unlawfully…”

      EVERY mail in ballot (all 2.6 million of them) was unlawful. Why? Mail-in balloting is NOT in Article 7 of the PA Constitution.

      In person voting is there, Section 1.

      Absentee voting is there, Section 14 (added by Amendment in 1957). This section spells out who and under what conditions voting by absentee is allowed.

      Mail in balloting was “allowed” by Act 77 of 2019. But as we ALL know from grade school, you can’t amend a constitution with a mere law. You need an amendment.

      The PA Legislature knows that, too. That’s why they passed a resolution to amend the PA constitution to allow voting that is other than in-person. (SB413, printers number 1653)

      So what’s the problem? The problem is that for SB413 to become an amendment is has to pass the next session of the Legislature and then be approved by voters. It hasn’t done that yet.

      This is not rocket science.

      1. Legal insights from slack-jawed bigots, disaffected clingers, superstitious yahoos, and half-educated incels are always a treat.

        1. Not a legal insight. Just grade school civics and basic reading comprehension.

        2. No really you should stick with your Tony sock

      2. Let’s just grant all of that. The problem is that disenfranchising millions of voters after the fact, based on the failure of the legislature, courts and administration to properly run the election is still wrong.

        I mean, if we’re playing with conspiracy theories, imagine a state in which the legislature is majority one party, but expects an important presidential election will go for the other party. They just intentionally slap together some shitty laws, forcing the administration and courts to patch things up, and then, when their candidate loses, they say that the votes shouldn’t be voted because the process was flawed. Great way to steal an election, isn’t it?

        And that’s exactly what was attempted in Pennsylvania, with the possible exclusion of the word “intentionally.”

    3. Ummm sure

      Now prove all that.

  18. Since all these allegations of voter fraud were lies then all the politicians that supported Trump should be punished as be an accessory to fraud and maybe insurrection. What might be a fitting punishment would be to be banned from politics and any government job for the rest of their lives. Maybe that would cause the next person who thinks of doing something like this to have second thought on the matter before trying to do so.

    1. Perpetual poverty and shame for having the wrong opinion!
      Now that’s freedom!

      1. This is what the left has advocated since November 7, 1917.
        They’re being remarkably consistent.

        Anyone who imagined they wouldn’t institute a Songbun system wasn’t paying attention.

    2. “Since all these allegations of voter fraud were lies then all the politicians that supported Trump should be punished as be an accessory to fraud and maybe insurrection. What might be a fitting punishment would be to be banned from politics and any government job for the rest of their lives. Maybe that would cause the next person who thinks of doing something like this to have second thought on the matter before trying to do so.”

      Ken was hypothesizing that some commenters here are simply incapable of critical thought; the poster offering this steaming pile of shit qualifies.

  19. The ballot system should be completely on paper with the name of the selection written by the voter.

  20. Hey sullum, how about a fucking article about Cori Bush trying to expel duly elected members of congress?

    https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/01/10/rep-cori-bush-looks-to-expel-gop-members-of-congress-using-the-14th-amendment/

    1. I can’t even…
      When fascism comes to America it will be wearing clown shoes and a rubber nose.

  21. Sorry but you guys had your day, and playing up to the left in hopes they ignore you won’t work. See they are culling the herd and the low hanging fruit are the easily identifiable who resisted them online. reason may be around for a bit longer with koch money but don’t expect them to turn a blind eye.

    Did you see how easy it was to unscrew parler from the web? They cannot find a new hosting service. Think anyone will take them on unless it’s some screwball Philippines operation? Or on some tor network maybe. Bottom line though they can figure out where they are and block them.

    They are holding all the keys and guarding all the doors.

    1. Less bitching and more constructive ideas.

      What specifically do you suggest happen here? Should the state force Google and AWS to host content that they don’t want to?

      1. Jeff, what do YOU think should happen? The libertarian solution was “hey, start your own platform and complete”. Apple and Google said get that weak shit outta here.

        They know it’s obvious what they’re doing and they don’t care. You’re cool with a handful of people having that much control over public discourse? With one side (either one) getting squeezed out?

        1. Well , after all, they are the right people….

        2. I try to think of these things in analogy with the physical world because it’s just easier for me to think of things this way.

          The Internet itself is like a public road. All sorts of businesses can appear on the public road, wholesome ones and seedy ones. Having an app in an app store is like having a “shortcut” to one of the businesses on the Internet public road. Apple & Google, owners of their shortcuts, decided to remove those shortcuts to the Parler establishment. But Parler is still connected to the public road. They just don’t enjoy the shortcuts that Apple & Google were providing them anymore.

          Parler being hosted by AWS is analogous to having offices in an office complex. So AWS decided to kick Parler out of their office complex. I don’t know what the contractual arrangements were like, but provided that kicking them out was consistent with the contract, AWS has the right to do what they did because AWS is the one that owns the “offices”. So it may be that Parler has to literally build their own office building if they want to stay connected to the Internet. That sucks for Parler, but what is the alternative? Force AWS to host Parler’s content against their will? Force Google to maintain their “shortcut” to Parler against their will?

          If this drama was occurring in physical space, and the owner of an office building kicked out one of its tenants (again, assuming it was consistent with the lease agreement), no one here would be asserting any sort of right for the tenant to have an office in the building against the owner’s wishes.

          I think the only real danger, from a libertarian perspective, is if a businesses is completely cut off from the Internet entirely with not even the possibility of building their own server to connect to it. But AFAIK that is not the case with Parler. It is just more difficult for them.

          1. So your solution is screw roughly half the country out of their ability to participate in public discussion. Or in the physical world, half the country has to go down your road homeless and with 200 lb weights on each ankle. That don’t work.

            I was laissie

            1. “So your solution is screw roughly half the country out of their ability to participate in public discussion. ”

              Parler didn’t have anything close to that kind of user base, as far as I know, so you are being hyperbolic. Besides, you are equating a forum where people were actively working to coordinate an attack on the Capitol to participating in “public discussion”. If Parler wasn’t going to do anything significant about people planning to riot using its platform, then why should anyone be obligated to assist them with anything?

              Something I’ve come to recognize about the far end of the modern libertarian/conservative belief system about “freedom” is that they think it means getting to say and do whatever the fuck they want. And not only is it an infringement on their freedom if the government stops them, but if other people want to disassociate from them for what they say and do, that is an attack on their freedom as well.

              The Founders would not acknowledge this as liberty. They knew that liberty and freedom meant a responsibility to restrict one’s own behavior voluntarily for the benefit of all. That is the core reason to have a government that has the consent of the governed. Instead of an arbitrary authority, like a monarch, to decide what restrictions to put on people to prevent anarchy, the people would vote on the best way to police themselves. (And we have a Bill of Rights and other constitutional provisions to try and keep the majority from abusing that power. But, to emphasize the obvious, that is about government restrictions on people.)

              Put simply, the People are expected to restrict themselves, so that government doesn’t have to. It is clear enough that one person’s right to swing their fist ends at another person’s face. But the idea is that all people are expected to choose to not swing their fist in a way that could harm others. And even if a person is not acting illegally, if that person’s fellow citizens think he is acting irresponsibly and recklessly, they can use their freedom to disassociate themselves from him and denounce his behavior. And that would not be an infringement of that person’s liberty in any way, shape, or form.

          2. As I was saying before the website froze, I was laissez faire as to these guys until this power play. Now I’m starting to consider breaking them up.

            The arrogance of this move is breathtaking.

            1. So your solution is screw roughly half the country out of their ability to participate in public discussion.

              But that’s not true in this case. Parler is still on the public road. They just don’t get the shortcuts and the comfy AWS offices.

              Would “breaking them up” mean AWS would be forced to “rent office space” to Parler and everyone else?

              1. Yeah. Them not getting the shortcuts and comfy office was the part about weights and homelessness. They’re crippled. Hell, that’s the stated reason for this from Apple and Google.

                At a point the disadvantage gets so big that they’re not viable.

                You’re excusing it, not fixing it.

                1. And you’ve all of a sudden discovered the benefits of socialism.

                  Private companies don’t have to host terrorist communications networks.

                  If they want someone to host them, they should call the FBI, who I’m sure could find it useful to have their chatter back online.

                  1. I’m sorry you’re upset that you’re guys are evil.

                    1. Hi Tulpa, try to overthrow any governments lately?

                    2. I’m sorry you’re upset that people point out your guys are evil.

                    3. I’ve said Tony was evil for over a year now. He’s genuinely a sinister fuck.

                  2. Here comes Tony with his non-sequiters. You forget I’m not a trumpster. Or even of the right.

                    Didn’t know you were such a big fan of monopoly power.

                    The thing that broken-brained partisans like you is that you never remember that if it can happen to your enemies it can happen to you. Idiot.

                    And it’s your, not you’re. And you continually do the if you’re not with us you’re against us thing. Because it hurts your brain to think of people’s thoughts in anything but the simplest of terms.

                    1. My side is never going to attempt to overthrow the US government. If they did, I wouldn’t be on their side. And if they did, Republicans would throw them all in a black site to be tortured without a single moment’s hesitation.

                      Republicans taking their ethical cues from Democrats. Tell me that bedtime story again.

                    2. It’s doing just that right fucking now Tony.

                      Pelosi got her hands rapped by the Pentagon on Thursday for trying to foment a military coup. Even the NYT bitched her out for that.

                      You sat here cheering the DNC on as it spent the last four years trying to undo the 2016 election. You pushed the Russian conspiracy. You wailed about a phony election. You cheered on rioters. You cheered the Kavanagh protesters assault on the capitol.

                      So fuck you, you dishonest hypocrite. Stuff your concern trolling about democratic processes up your hypocritical ass.

                    3. Everything you believe is a lie, and instead of keeping your problems to yourself, you made them my problem too.

                      My solutions are purely practical I assure you. I don’t give a fuck how you feel about things.

          3. “I try to think of these things in analogy with the physical world because it’s just easier for me to think of things this way.”

            Jeff has no idea why this is an admission that everything we say about his reasoning is true lololo

            1. He thinks it’s smart to tell us he simplifies complicated issues because they’re top difficult for him otherwise.

              Oh Jeff.

              1. Jeff just literally admitted that he changes difficult ideas to thing he van umdestand lololol

                #unintentionallyhonest

    2. It makes sense that government would drive conservative thought underground to the dark web.

      Then they’ll have the excuse they always wanted to dismantle it too. Even if only as well as they dismantled the drug trade. It’s the government way.

      Greenwald is right. They’re gearing up for a War on Domestic Terror, and no body on earth can make a War on X more painful for the people it doesn’t care for than the USG.

      1. What’s coming is going to make the patriot act look modest and restrained in comparison.
        Hell, it might even make the Nuremberg laws blush.

    3. No they’re NOT holding all the keys. Parler was run by a bunch of rubes, that’s all.

      The liberals have a head start on tech, but the right is catching up fast, so they’ll score some early victories before righties learn to harden their defenses.

  22. I AM Y-U-G-E-L-Y PROUD OF MY RUDY. HE FOUGHT THE GOOD FIGHT AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO FOR ME UNTIL IT IS PROVEN THAT THIS PAST ELECTION WAS STOLEN FROM ME BY THE CORRUPT DEMOCRATS! LOCK THEM UP! JUST TAKE A LOOK AT MY RUDY. NOT ONLY IS HE SANE AND BRILLIANT, HE’S ALSO ONE SEXY GUY: youtube.com/watch?v=QbBSUrAwfRM. IN FACT, SO SEXY THAT HE AND I OFTEN GET QUITE ROMANTIC: youtube.com/watch?v=4IrE6FMpai8. HOW CAN I RESIST?

    1. New sarcasmic sock is worse than his sqsly one.

      Take a night off drinking man.

      1. YOU SOUND LIKE THOSE COWARDS AT TWITTER WHO BANNED ME AND, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT I, KING TRUMP, DON’T DRINK ALCOHOL. ALTHOUGH I DO OF COURSE GUZZLE DOWN ABOUT 20 CANS OF DIET COKE A DAY.

        1. mmm this is your least interesting sock Tony.

  23. Just as better Americans are identifying arresting, charging, and firing the slack-jawed Republicans who engaged in insurrection, better American lawyers are going to arrange the disbarment of the lawyers of Trump Election Litigation–Elite Strike Force. Powell, Wood, Hilbert, Giuliani, and dozens of others are about to face disbarments, fee awards, civil claims, court sanctions, professional censure or probation, and the general disdain of their betters.

    Carry on, clingers . . . so far as your betters permit.

    1. How long should we leave the dead bodies hanging by the street lamps as a deterrent to others?

    2. Non lawyer. Performance artist. Old material.

    3. I like your Tony sock better.

      1. I like stomping bigoted misfits like you into political and cultural irrelevance.

        You get to whimper about it as much as you like.

        1. Yeah because the Reason comment section is so politically and culturally significant.

  24. Sullum did a nice job covering the tragic Houston drug raid that killed Dennis Tuttle and Rhogena Nicholas.

    Once his Trump boner goes down, I’m looking forward to his coverage of Ashli Bennett’s murder: https://vimeo.com/498853941

    1. OOH, A BONER. I LOVE BONERS! ANYHOW, MY CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN COMRADE DAN, I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU. POLICE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT ARE NEVER EVER WRONG. AND LOOK AT IT THIS WAY. THERE IS A POSITIVE TO BE FOUND HERE. ASHLI, AND MY OTHER CULTISTS WHO WERE KILLED AND/OR DIED THAT GREAT PATRIOTIC DAY, INCLUDING OFFICER SICKNICK, ARE NOW UP IN HEAVEN SMILING DOWN ON US, KNOWING THAT THEY DIED FOR ME. I BLESS YOU!

      1. Ok so your Haystack sock is better than this one Tony.

      2. We know it’s you Sleepy Joe.

    2. You mean once Trump stops being the active cause of all our problems, the libertarian magazine can get back to what it does best, reporting on manageable-scale infringements of liberty?

      I agree. Republicans ruin everything, and they do it spectacularly. No corner of the planet lacks for ashes from their eruption of fascist insanity.

      “We just want to be left alone.”

      You could have been left alone in your quarantine zone like any sane person during these circumstances. Instead we have pandemic + ongoing coup attempt. Add a fucking sea monster and Republicans will have achieved catastrophe bingo.

      1. “You mean once Trump stops being the active cause of all our problems”

        Trump didn’t give you AIDS or make you give 5 dollar handies Tony, get some agency pleass.

        1. He literally gave everyone around him a deadly virus.

          I wonder if he had to buttfuck them all to do it if he would lose any fans.

          1. I’m sorry you’re upset you can’t blame Trump for your poor choice of Johns.

            1. For a bugchaser, Tony is certainly in high dudgeon over Covid.

              1. For a president, Trump is also an actual bug chaser. The only one I’ve ever actually known about, and I’ve had some skeezy friends.

      2. Tony: “You mean once Trump stops being the active cause of all our problems, the libertarian magazine can get back to what it does best, reporting on manageable-scale infringements of liberty?”

        No, I don’t mean that.

  25. Yes that’s the near future of trump surrender and accept the election results.

  26. OMG Nooooooooooo. How can this be? Trump has proof. He said he had proof. He to the georgia SOS that he had proof on the phone. He said he would not show them the proof, but he had the proof. He said all he wanted was 11,780 votes. But since he really won by over 500,000 votes, there was no need to show proof for the SOS to just give him 11,780 votes. That’s sooooooo much proof, I don’t see why they didn’t just give trump the votes he asked them for. That’s what any red blooded american should have done right?

    Oh shit, it just got me. I hate it when reality slaps me in the face. But the reality is that Trump was, is and has always been lying just to get his way. Now look. All of his bitches got mad, really mad. Mad enough to storm the capitol. Now many of them are facing prison time. What a bunch of dumb fuckers. You all drank the Kool aid. 😀 😀 😀

    1. Material needs work.

      1. Brains would help also; sorely lacking.

        1. Proof would help Trump, but he’s got none. Hey told you he had proof, you believed him, but he fooled you. You voted for him and he lied to you for your vote. You might want to take a look in the mirror before spewing someone needs brains. Ask Trump to give yours back to you.

          1. Brains would help also; sorely lacking.
            Fuck off and die, TDS-afflicted lefty shit.

            1. “Fuck off and die.” 😀 😀

              Thats so clever, why didn’t I think of that? You better beg trump to give you your brains back. But he probably won’t give them back. He is in serious debt and he could probably get a whopping $1.00 for them. And when you need money like him, every dollar counts.

              1. I’m sorry you’re poor Tony.

            2. Now bugger off. Busy watching Nancy Pelosi badmouth Trump on 60 Minutes.

              1. Nope still prefer your Tony sock.

              2. Maybe she’s got another “Fake but accurate” scoop for them.

      2. You need a new President. Oh wait, you got one. It’s President Biden.

        1. For a couple of weeks, if they keep his meds heavy enough.
          You need a brain implant, or perhaps getting out of the 6th grade after how many years?

          1. For a couple of weeks after Jan 20th Trump might still have his freedom. But after that he’ll be in prison. You should start a class action suit against him for stealing your money and lying to you.

            1. I like your Tony sock better mtrueman.

            2. “For a couple of weeks after Jan 20th Trump might still have his freedom. But after that he’ll be in prison. You should start a class action suit against him for stealing your money and lying to you.”

              Yeah, I’m sure shitstains like you will be happy to support a charge of being Donald Trump. You’ve manage the dim-bulb accomplishment:
              Ken S. posited earlier today in one of the other “orange man bad” threads that certain commenters are assumed to be dishonest, but that grants them far too much credit: Dishonesty requires a mind acute enough to recognize and reject fact.
              There are Tony, turd, M4e, Haystack, jackass and others here who qualify as incapable of that. I propose this be called the “KS Line”; and those under it might be due some sympathy for their condition. It’s not easy getting along in a world full of information and data with a brain simply not equipped to really “think”.
              Regardless, they still need to be called on their idiocy; perhaps one or more might even become capable of critical thought, doubtful though that seems.

  27. Read the headline, confirmed my guess as to TDS-aflicted shit ‘writer’, ignored the article.

  28. Am I the only one who got the wrong idea from the headline? I thought, OMG, they’re locking up all Trump’s supporters already!

  29. How silly the people must feel who sacrificed their futures by committing terrorism against the United States based on a lie. Silly and cavity-searched.

    1. No one cares what you did last night.

      1. Your mom seemed to care at the time.

        1. She had to dodge your skidmarks to search you, so I can’t blame her.

    2. Hey Tony, define their “terrorism” and explain how it was worse than the Kavanagh protester’s invasion of the capitol.

      1. Explain why I should give a fuck how similar or dissimilar this was to some other thing that wasn’t an attempted coup?

        Or for that matter about the hurt feelings of one of the most powerful men on earth who, like every other Republican, is a revolting weasel?

        Your solution to this terrorist attack is, with a straight face, to punish leftists and black people harder.

        Now that you’ve coupled all your terrible ideas with a terrorist uprising, this country doesn’t have to dick around with your terrible ideas anymore. What a service you and your diseased terrorist friends have done.

        Remember, Dick Cheney wrote the rules.

        1. Look how pissed you are about storming the Capitol!

          Glad you finally know how the right felt all summer.

          Tony: Waa Waa no fair, only I’M allowed to play with those toys!

          1. You felt that way because you consume rightwing trash media that froths up your racial hatred for evil political ends.

            You cared more about a burned down Walgreens than hundreds of thousands dead from a virus.

            You let your brain be switched off by rightwing media, and they made their priorities your priorities. And that’s sad.

    3. Yeah BLM is silly.

  30. I see that in the aftermath of a terrorist attack, in the midst of what undoubtedly be more terrorist attacks, the main concern here coincidentally is exactly what the main concern was on FOX News all day.

    Just real independent fucking thinkers here.

    Oh woe are the terrorists and their leader thanks to the the latest “the Jews,” Big Tech. Presidents have a right not to put on pants before vomiting lies to planet earth!

    If he goes to the room downstairs completely dedicated to giving him an audience of billions, he’ll have to put on pants! Think of the effort that entails for a man shaped like Trump!

    And socialism! Love socialism now, as of Wednesday afternoon. Private companies need to bake that fucking cake and I mean bake that fucking cake now. By bake I mean “publish” and by cake I mean “my terrorist plots.”

    Won’t you think about the constitution we just smeared with our own shit?

    1. I’m sorry you’re still upset your guys are evil.

      1. You can Tell Tony knows his guys are getting their blood up and they are going to shit the bed any minute.

        1. At least we confine our shitting to our beds and don’t smear it all over the US Capitol building.

          They were so mad about that kneeling during the anthem thing. So mad.

          Guess it was just racism after all, huh?

          1. Glad you prefer to sleep in your shit, and further pleased that your comment is irrelevant.
            Ken S. posited earlier today in one of the other “orange man bad” threads that certain commenters are assumed to be dishonest, but that grants them far too much credit: Dishonesty requires a mind acute enough to recognize and reject fact.
            There are Tony, turd, M4e, jackass and others here who qualify as incapable of that. I propose this be called the “KS Line”; and those under it might be due some sympathy for their condition. It’s not easy getting along in a world full of information and data with a brain simply not equipped to really “think”.
            Regardless, they still need to be called on their idiocy; perhaps one or more might even become capable of critical thought, doubtful though that seems.
            Tony is certainly not one capable of learning.
            Fuck off and die, shitstain.

            1. Your content is definitely not good enough to copy/paste.

              1. You’ve proven to be sub KS, shitstain.
                He’s more kind than am I; I hope you die of a long painful disease and hope your family is happy to be rid of such a pathetic piece of lefty shit.
                Those of us familiar with your lies sure will be!

                1. You say “lies” like some meek little voice in the bowels of your subconscious is worried to death that you’re the one who’s been lied to and Tony is right about everything.

                  Red pill motherfucker. At the bottom of the rabbit hole is little else but science and beauty. Stop resisting. It’s so much better than racism and fucking your cousin. Well, I haven’t met your cousin.

                  1. Tony
                    January.11.2021 at 12:19 am
                    You say “lies” like some meek little voice in the bowels of your subconscious is worried to death that you’re the one who’s been lied to and Tony is right about everything….”

                    Do you have some faint hope your continual lying is not noted as such here?
                    Ken, your assumption that idiocy was sufficient to account for shit like this is true, and the idiocy continues for the same reason; Tony and the lot simply have not the mental capacity to distinguish fact from fantasy.

                    1. I don’t need mental capacity, I just need books.

                      Know what a book is?

                    2. “I don’t need mental capacity, I just need books.”

                      Ken, you just got confirmation.

                    3. To those who understand Ken’s comment, “books” is irrelevant.
                      To be relevant, the reader of a book would have to attempt to understand what was communicated in those books and offer support for the claims as a result of that reading.
                      Tony has yet to provide any support for his bullshit from any outside source.
                      Tony is a sub KS source: fuck off and die.

                    4. Yeah I’m pretty sure I’m right (again), and you’re really kind of panicking that maybe the people you thought were your enemies were, in fact:

                      Scientists
                      Journalists
                      Teachers
                      Serious politicians
                      Artists
                      PhDs
                      Etc.

                      And not fanged communists who rape children in pizza shops.

                      Maybe the storming of the Capitol looked a little… off to you. Like somehow it seemed… wrong. Or bad. Like maybe these people don’t have the best ideas about liberty, let alone tax policy.

                  2. “Yeah I’m pretty sure I’m right (again), and you’re really kind of panicking that maybe the people you thought were your enemies were, in fact:..”

                    This is the sort of bullshit you get from those below the KS line; appeals to authority, claims of ‘morality’.
                    No evidence, no logical argument.
                    Fuck off and die.

          2. Tony: “At least we confine our shitting to our beds and don’t smear it all over the US Capitol building.”

            Weren’t you supposed to post up some proof of this, and by “proof” I mean a picture, or maybe an article that doesn’t have as its eventual source an unnamed person from Chuck Schumer’s office?

            1. After you provide proof the election was stolen.

    2. I don’t think BLM watches Fox.

    3. Tony: WAA WAA NO FAIR! ONLY LIBERALS ARE ALLOWED TO BREAK SHIT AND STEAL!!! NO SHARING!!!

      LOL, suck it bitch, you legalized peaceful protesting and now that’s the way people get heard in this country. YOU did that.

      1. You’ve demonstrated quite clearly that you intend to lie yourself into an excuse for whatever you want to do. I’m sure there’s some woman who wronged you and deserves to be taught a lesson too.

        It is absolutely no shock to me that some libertarians are itching to go out and impose law and order on some folk. You can make up all the lies you want to justify your bloodlust. Tell it to the cops.

  31. Oh look. Real oppression. 😀 😀

    1. Oh, look! Real idiocy!
      Fuck off and die.

      1. Keep reading. Hahahahahahaha

    2. Oh damn, I forgot to add the link to the real oppression. Here ya go.
      https://mobile.twitter.com/DJEkin/status/1348360258377412615

  32. So I saw the video proof that Giuliani has. But I got to see all of the video that he deliberately left out. Now I’m thinking Giuliani really needs to be disbarred ASAP. Although I’m sure there are many here that think the parts that were left out don’t need to be shown. It’s kind of like Sevo telling you all that I took a shit today because he he tased shit on my asshole when he licked it. But the whole tape shows that I took a shit two days earlier and just didn’t shower for a couple days.

    Oh, by the way I saw this evidence on 60 Minutes. But I’m sure most of you here refuse to watch a show like that because who needs to see the whole truth, right?

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    2. MSM are liars. they were liars before the election and they are still lying.

      Remember when the MSM said Russia hacked election 2016? That didnt happen in 2020 for some reason.

      I live in Georgia. There is ample proof of illegal ballots cast and more importantly state election laws not followed.

      Its funny that commies are so desperate to convince Americans that there was NO election fraud yet have nothing to counter the clear evidence that there was election fraud and unconstitutional changes to election laws.

  33. Isn’t it funny how in a country that prides itself on justice. I still haven’t heard a single ‘debunk’ of the GA live video or the multiple TV’s showing Republican vote counts being subtracted or how multiple election workers filed affidavits of seeing perfectly printed and unfolded mail-in ballots or how audits of the Dominion voting system which threw up entire books of faults had no merit or the excuse for thousands of ballots getting found during recount but still going with the ‘machine’ vote count or etc, etc, etc, etc,……

      1. Well lets see what we got here —
        dizzying array of fuzzy accounting and false claims – name-calling
        fabricating a slew of votes that he said should’ve been count in his favor — WHAT THE HECK DOES AUTHENTICATION HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT TRUMP *SAID*????????????
        Writer – “claims” Trump “suggested” ——– SUGGESTED???? WTF DOES THAT MEAN?
        The AP has a policy??? — Like Election Policy that changes by fiat-E.O??????

        Oh okay; my bad — here we go “THE FACTS”
        Trump lost Georgia in an election the state has certified — OH; Well golly-molly; that must settle and CANCEL all the evidence to the contrary……

        With ballots counted 3-Times (Ya lol… I’m sure Biden’s were) Georgia “certified” <— Oh, Golly, molly there it is again.
        Oh, the "OFFICIALS" sayed they found no evidence that Trump won. ALL HAIL THE OFFICIALS!!!!! ALL HAIL CERTIFICATION!!!!

        Judges have turned away……. Instead of carrying on the repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over AGAIN Charade….

        ONCE AGAIN I have to ask ——————– What part of the evidence present was 'debunked'???????? What part of it was 'Investigated'????????????????

        NONE!!! TONY!! None of it was investigated — The machines were audited (came up faulty), Independent Organization did their own audited and confirmed Trump was correct about massive election fraud. We're not talking about home-brew audits here… Symantec Corp was one of them that audited the machines and said they were faulty beyond believe.. TX wouldn't even use them they were so open to fraud.
        WHAT PART OF THOSE REPORTS WERE PROVEN FAULTY..???!!!!??!!

        NONE — The world is so busy pecking at Trump like a bunch of chicken-brainless birds THAT is what CANCELLED pure and undeniable evidence.

        TRY AGAIN!

        1. Here Tony… This is what I was looking for..
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjKXvqSNIkk

        2. Could you try again in standard English?

          You know what doesn’t matter about traitors? The sincerity of their beliefs.

          1. It’s a run down of the linked article you sent full of hateful name-calling and attempting to turn those “beliefs” (really just ‘feelings’) into “fact”. It actually didn’t DEBUNK anything (as nothing the lefty mob-media had pitched did); I had to go find the main ‘debunk’ I was after myself.

            And P.S. National Socialism isn’t a ‘belief’ it’s a political system and not the political system of the USA. So; if you want to use that word ‘traitor’ you’re pointing it in the wrong direction.

        3. Clearly, everyone is in on the conspiracy except you, me, and Trump, and I’m not so sure about me!

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  35. The dead horse and Mr. Sullum must be in a BDSM relationship, with Sullum as the Dom.

  36. Why are we reading this? We just observed absurd free speech suppression. You’re Reason, you should be shining all light and attention on protecting individual rights. What are you doing with my money? Maybe I’ll stop donating…

    1. What free speech suppression? You aren’t seriously talking about Twitter and FB banning Trump or Apple/Amazon blocking Parlor are you?

      If you are, and I hope you aren’t, you understand the 1st Amendment in NO WAY protects you from being censored by a private company, right? You get that I hope, right? Apple, Twitter, FB and Amazon all can do whatever in the hell they want to Trump’s twitter account or to Parlor’s sh$#$y app.

      That has zero to do with free speech, nothing at all, zero. And anyone who thinks it does, should then be protesting Faux News for their failure to give the Dems equal time on their network – which would be FAR FAR close to a 1st Amendment issue since the airwaves have been ruled to be a public space while the content on a private company’s Internet site HAS NOT.

      Those of you who pretend to know the Constitution need to actually learn a tiny little bit about it.

      1. No they can’t. They’re protected from liability for what’s posted only if they maintain a neutral platform which they aren’t. If they want to be publishers and edit content they need to lose that protection. You can’t have it both ways.

        1. I don’t think you know what the fuck you’re talking about.

          They’re protected from liability for removing stuff like rightwing trash incitements to insurrections. And that’s good, because private companies shouldn’t be required to endorse violent rightwing insurrections.

          There is no requirement that any platform be neutral. You’re insane if you think that.

          1. No they’re protected from libel for what their users post. They’re allowed to remove threats of violence because that’s not protected speech. They could if they wished leave such posts up like they did all last year with Antifa/BLM.

            1. But they don’t wish to.

      2. BTW Fox News is on cable.

  37. Reason isn’t some mouthpiece of a communist party media outlet, it is a libertarian site. Even IT points out that Trump’s lawyers, when asked to present evidence (which is what is demanded by logic and the law), pussy-footed away because they HAD NO EVIDENCE. They dropped their cases, they lied about out of court settlements just like they lied about fraud.

    If all of you Trumpers care SOOO much about dead people on voter rolls (for example), why do you care sooo little about people being thrown off those rolls?

    The answer is simple, either you are lemmings and only pay attention to that which Faux News calls out to you and they don’t call out voter suppression (except if it happens to Trump voters) OR you don’t care, because after all it’s the poor (and in many cases black) voters who are disenfranchised, and since the gamble is more of those voters are black, that’s fine.

    So, you don’t mind in engaging in fraudulent suppression of the vote by unethically denying people their right to vote but someone says (without proof) there’s cheating going on and tRump loses? Well then, time for war.

    Despite having no proof. Yep, good Murkins.

    1. Poor commies. They just cant ignore the evidence of unconstitutional changes to election laws and illegal ballots cast.

    2. There isn’t a right to vote for the President. The Constitution clearly states the Legislatures select the electors. They could flip a coin if they wanted to.

      1. So the whole country is in agreement that the electoral vote was valid. Good, we can all go home and stop trying to kill people because we lost an election.

  38. Poor commies at unreason. Lying again.

    There were changes made to election laws in Georgia without our state legislature’s approval in violation of the US Constitution.

    There were tens of thousands of illegal ballots cast in Georgia.

    The MSM and unreason lost all credibility years ago. Nothing you say will be taken as fact.

    1. Care to offer proof, Love? I mean, Trump’s lawyers had none but obviously you do.

      You don’t have to take Reason’s word, take the court’s. Trump’s lawyers, all over the country, when asked if they were alleging fraud (by a judge, in a court, where they can’t lie, unlike what they can do in front of a camera), each time, Trump’s lawyers said ‘No.’

      So, the people not having any proof, that’s you.

      1. Luckily, its on that thing called the internet. Check out the documents and filing before the Commies try to erase history.

        Commies tried the same thing over exposing the Russia lies, etc.

        I cant wait until the next Republicans win 1 trillion votes next election because election rules dont matter.

        1. Sorry Love, was that some attempt at evidence? You didn’t provide any at all.

          Where was ANYONE indicted (or even arrested) for an attempt at wide spread fraud (here’s a hint in 2018 in North Carolina, it was a Republican).

          Where were any counts (by hand) found to disagree with machine counts?

          Where were any judges barred from viewing ballot counting (no, sorry, not in PA, that was Trumpistas barred from adding in, there already were GOP judges preset).

          You just don’t have anything. You want to show a court filing that wasn’t tossed? Remember, you can put a lot of noise in a filing, it just can’t be false. Correlation doesn’t mean causation. Saying that because 18 counties voted one way in the past doesn’t mean them voting another way proves anything, it shows demographics change.

          So, again, got proof?

          No?

          Not surprised.

          1. If you recount fake paper ballots how would that change anything?

            1. What fake paper ballots?

              You’re here wasting your life trying to overthrow an election on the flimsiest of hopes because you have emotional problems instead of working through your issues like an adult.

              You people demonstrated quite clearly that you weren’t interested in fair elections. They tried to murder Congress. You’re interested in installing the loser of the election because he makes you feel good for terrible reasons.

              1. The ones witnessed by poll watchers who signed affidavits upon threat of perjury saying they had seen them. Experts have come forward claiming they could quickly detect said ballots if allowed to.

                1. Are you trying to justify future terrorism or are you just whining? The election is over. The electoral votes were counted (albeit delayed by the terrorist attack on the ones doing the counting).

                  Even if Biden cheated, you should be grateful we’re rid of the violent seditionist asshole who preceded him. The only way I wouldn’t be in favor of Biden cheating to save the country from Trump is if you assholes found out about it. Turns out you found out about cheating that is a total figment of your own imagination.

    2. I’m just grateful that Trump supporting lawyers were willing to go to court to try and disenfranchise entire states because of the screw-ups of their legislatures and attorneys general. That seems reasonable.

  39. Even though TDS doesn’t hospitalize or kill those it infects, its a far more harmful pandemic for America than covid.

    1. I’m sorry, you’re saying that you Trumpers have an illness? Yeah, I get it.. you blindly follow anything he spews out. Oh, and when you get over your ODS, and moreover, when you have any proof, I’ll start to read, til’ then, it’s just another factual post answered only by insult because it’s ALL YOU’VE GOT. There’s a saying, when the other side starts swearing and lobbing insults, you know you’ve won.

      Thanks.

      1. If you are shown proof you’ll just say it’s not proof because some judge refused to accept it as proof.

        1. That’s the only kind of proof that matters if you want to make a criminal accusation.

        2. I looked at a LOT of claims of “proof,” and most of it was utterly ridiculous. Here in Pennsylvania, the claim was that 1.2 million more mail-in ballots were requested than returned. That’s because they used the number of requests for the primary, and the number of returned ballots for the general. In Michigan, or was it Minnesota, because the people making the claim apparently couldn’t keep it straight, there were claims of 350% voter turnout…which evidently were the result of flipping the numerator and denominator with early voting numbers from the wrong state. And on and on and on.

          If there’s good evidence, maybe lead with that, because otherwise it appears that those claiming fraud are either too stupid or too dishonest, or both, to be credible.

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