Coronavirus

How Much Is $2.3 Trillion? More Than Even Obama Could Imagine

The CARES Act plunges the nation into a crash course on experimental economics.—and we're the lab rats.

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In 2009, the last time Washington aimed a trillion-dollar firehose at the distressed U.S. economy, the president, a Democrat, repeatedly coupled that act of temporary profligacy with the rhetorical aim of long-term budgetary sobriety.

"One of the central goals of this administration is restoring fiscal responsibility," Barack Obama asserted back then. "Even as we have had to spend our way out of this recession in the near term, we've begun to make the hard choices necessary to get our country on a more stable fiscal footing in the long run."

There were plenty of reasons for contemporaneous skepticism about Obama's claims, but even insincere nods toward a presumed virtue can contribute to a mild braking on vice. Policy battles over deficits, debt ceilings, and old-age entitlements dominated national politics through the end of 2013, and not merely because of then-ornery, now-quiescent Tea Party Republicans. Erskine Bowles, after all, was a Democrat.

But the twin rise of President Donald Trump and Sen. Bernie Sanders (I–Vt.), along with the strains of populism they channeled, chased deficit hawks to the despised corners of polite society by 2015. After that, the main questions left were how many zeroes would end up on the federal check when the next crisis inevitably hit.

George W. Bush's Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of October 2008 came with a $700 billion price tag. Add in Obama's $833 billion American Recovery and Reinvestmenty Act in February 2009, and we're talking a bailout/stimulus combo of $1.53 trillion, or $1.84 trillion in 2020 dollars.

By comparison, the bipartisan stimulus that was very temporarily held up by the near-universally despised Rep. Thomas Massie (R–Ky.), totals around $2.3 trillion, according to the bean-counters at the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. Even accounting for population increase (the U.S. had 307 million residents in 2009, around 331 million today), that's an inflation-adjusted per capita increase from around $6,000 11 years ago to $6,950 today.

How much is $2.3 trillion? In nominal terms, it's the same as the entire federal budget for Fiscal Year 2004. Adjusting for inflation gets you back to the federal government's $1 trillion outlay for 1987. Inflation and population together take you back to 1974. In short, Congress just approved a bailout/stimulus of $6,950 per person, which is more than the $6,600 per person in constant dollars that the entire federal government spent in Richard Nixon's final year in office.

The accumulated national debt in 1974 was $475 billion, or around $2.5 trillion in today's money ($11,700 per U.S. resident). George W. Bush inherited we-owe-yous of $5.67 trillion (which adjusts to $8.52 trillion and $30,200 per capita), and left for Obama a present of $10 trillion ($12 trillion/$39,600). As Trump readies his black sharpie for the rescue package, the debt clock stands at $23.6 trillion ($71,300 per person)—and it was being goosed by trillion-dollar annual deficits even before COVID-19 hit the fan.

And unlike Obama in 2009, Trump doesn't currently feel the need to even rhetorically hint at future tradeoffs. The president reportedly said in late 2018 about any future fiscal crisis: "Yeah, but I won't be here." Add in the likelihood of future bailouts and stimuli, and basically we're all Modern Monetary Theorists now.

The annual budget deficit, which snapped an entire generation of conservatives into attention when it crossed the $1 trillion threshold a decade ago, is likely to top $2 trillion before the fiscal year is out. The Government Accountability Office and Congressional Budget Office were calling the country's long-term fiscal outlook "unsustainable" back when the good times were still rolling. Now revenues are taking a massive hit, demand for government service is going through the roof, and the U.S. Mint's going brrrrr.

Libertarians back in 2008-09 tended to make four types of predictions about the bailout/stimulus. One—that the unpredented swooshing of cash and Federal Reserve intrusion into the economy would trigger long-dormant inflation—did not come to pass, and so many policy enthusiasts have taken that as a cue to ignore libertarians.

But there were three other forward-looking objections to socializing the failures of deep-pocketed losers during the financial crisis: that the ensuing debt load would unduly dampen the eventual recovery, that failing to fix the underlying government distortions that caused malinvestments in the first place would make bailouts an eternally recurring phenomenon, and that papering over problems with money would create new, even more dangerous bubbles.

With today's Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act, Congress has cemented what we already suspected: that the federal government does not care about learning from directly relevant mistakes it made in the recent past.

There is no more politics of fiscal prudence in America, just a competition to see who can wag the biggest firehose. While the bodies begin to pile up in New York City and elsewhere, Washington has responded with a massive course of experimental economics. May we respond better than rats in a cage.

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  1. Trump is right. Massie deserves to be kicked out of the Republican Party. He obviously isn’t thinking big (government) enough!

    1. Looking forward to the peanut gallery calling him a traitor. However, they’ve been strangely silent on this $2 trillion dollar bailout.

      1. Your imaginings of what your opponents think simply make you look stupid.

        Enough of us have said this is the wrong type of package. We pointed to the initial payroll tax as a better form of bailout. Weve tolerated the zero interest loans, although we generally dont like favored loans. We have generally hated the direct cash payments even to consumers (oddly those who you tend to groupthink with have supported the direct cash payments even in excess of the taxes paid by the individual). We have also flatly stated we hate the lockdowns the most and this government induced recession is the problem.

        But you have ignored all this because you’re a fucking idiot that resorts to strawmen arguments instead of actually engaging in argument.

        1. Jesse, curious to hear your thoughts on this very bill. Should Republicans have voted for it, almost unanimously? Should Trump sign it? Assuming you don’t like the bill as is, would you hold them accountable in any way for this?

          I wouldn’t ever NOT want payroll tax cuts. Those are almost certainly out of the question now though, in the future. Somebody has to pay for this $2T in handouts.

          1. We’ll pay for it with the deaths of the Boomers and the saving in Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

            1. Meh. Gen-X is already well on the way to taking over for the boomers. There is nothing that special about a particular generation. We’ll pay for it with taxes and inflation.

              I never expected Trump to be particularly fiscally responsible. But fuck this shit.

              1. Boomers are distinct. Gen Xers are distinct because they are not like any of the other current Generations. Millennials are distinct.

                The welfare passed with veto proof majorities.

                Ain’t no way Trump is going to ceremoniously veto a spending bill that will pass anyway under this media induced hysteria.

                If the mob hangs all the MSM types and Democrats by light poles, then I would start blaming others.

                1. However; He would have kept some respect if he did Veto it – whether or not the veto was over-ridden or not.

                  The so-called vote on it was a joke. All at one ‘eyes’ and ‘nays’ yells with 5% of the house present????? No roll call – the speaker dictates who yelled the loudest…

                  On a bill that costs each citizen (including children) $12,500/ea…. This IS NOT the USA anymore. We don’t take such a bill and give it a battle of band scream vote. The Federal Government is in utter disarray.

                  1. You’re right. When/if I get a check I’m going to sue the Feds and we’ll see if the damned thing is unconstitutional.

                  2. Trump spent his respect early and often; there was none left in the till when he signed this.
                    The worst nightmare is ‘printing your way out of it’ with a couple of trillion extra dollars in ‘fake’ money, thus dropping the value of every dollar in my pocket.

                2. “Boomers are distinct. Gen Xers are distinct because they are not like any of the other current Generations. Millennials are distinct.”

                  IMO The idea that all Boomers are the same, all GenXers are the same, all Millennials are the same, etc. is one of the stupidities of modern politics. Even in terms of tendencies people in the same group 10 years apart will tend to be different, and some people are on the borderline between generations.

                  But if you look at polling, if you actually drill down into specifics and don’t focus on generalities, there is consensus between generations on a wide range of issues. But politicians focus on the generalities in order to divide and conquer. Same way politicians try to divide black and whites, men and women, etc., they try to divide Boomers from Millennials from Gen Xers.

                  The sooner we move past generational politics, the better, though.

          2. Yes, Jesse, is Trump responsible for this bill?

            1. Solely? No. And the assertion is fucking idiotic.

              Was there ever a chance of no bill ever being signed?

              1. Stay At Home  Mom From New York Shared Her Secret On How She Was Able To Rake In $1500 Weekly From Online Work Just 3 Weeks After Losing Her Old Job……. Read More  

            2. The fact that this is the question you ask after my post just shows you doubling down on perceived strawman as your primary form of argument. You are literally worse than Jeff.

              1. Remember the other day when I was a pro big government socialist out of thin air? That was fun.

                1. R Mac, you are gonna vote for Trump in November, a president that is about to sign the biggest bailout in the history of the world. If that doesn’t make you a big government socialist, then nothing does.

                  1. How many times did I fuck your mom?

                  2. So he should vote for the senile idiot who is for even BIGGER government??

                2. See…Trump voting for a veto proof emergency budget bailout because treacherous Lefties are causing an artificial panic is totes the same as Democrats who want to spend trillions for no emergency reason.

                  Lefties just want to act like Trump is the same as them, yet they hate him which automatically tells every American that Trump is better.

          3. My thoughts are literally in the post you responded to. This is a bad bill in and of itself. But I also am a realist and new something would pass as that is what governments do

            1. Democrats wanted to blame Trump for the Wuhanvirus, the economic collapse from state lockdowns on business, and because he’s still a poopyhead.

            2. Should Republicans be held responsible though? Why keep giving them majorities if they are just going to act like Democrats when a crisis hits. See GWB in 2008 and now.

              I’d rather vote for a party like the LP, though not perfect, if my only choice is between spendy and spendier.

              1. Why are you desperate to blame one side when it passed with a unanimous vote?

                This is the shit that makes you, chipper, etc. seem blindly partisan. (Yes, you come across as anti republican as you almost never actually attack the other side)

                Would you have preferred Pelosis bill?

                Let’s not pretend the LP has a chance here. You seem oddly determined to present yourself as an idealist instead of trying to achieve even small wins. That’s why libertarians fail. Ideal worlds dont exist.

                1. No I’m simply frustrated with the Republicans who are supposedly for limited government. The Democrats are worse, but at least we know where they stand and they’re honest about it.

                  Blaming the dems on this site is basically preaching to the choir. There aren’t economic freedom converts to be had on the left. Why harp on it?

                  1. “There aren’t economic freedom converts to be had on the left. Why harp on it?”

                    Ask mango ward

                  2. Republicans haven’t been for limited government since, like, the 1980s. Arguably earlier.

                    Americans like big government, so we have two big government parties. They just use government muscle in different ways to different ends.

                    Eh.

              2. Leo, you are not gonna get Jesse to admit that Republicans are full of shit. Nice try, though.

              3. A solid point – but there was SOME politicians in the Senate and House that were against this bill. Not surprisingly the against were all Republican politicians.

                1. Actually this is a good example to use when someone screams partisan politics at Republicans. Although pitched by Republicans more Republicans fought its passage than did Democrats.

                  1. Yet, they passed it = Although pitched by Republicans more Republicans fought its passage than did Democrats.

          4. the play on this is easy. regardless of what is actually done the left will play the other side. AOC will be on whatever leftist news broadcast crying about how donald trump wants to kill little brown babies. i can hear it now: 1.trump didnt do enough to stop the spread of the virus = dead babies. 2.trump did too much and now the economy has crashed = dead babies. its the same playbook time and time again.

      2. You seem to have missed my asking him to please take that pile of pork out behind the barn and kill it with a pitchfork.

  2. >>repeatedly coupled that act of temporary profligacy with the rhetorical aim of long-term budgetary sobriety

    everyone in the solar system knew he was full of shit. nobody in Congress today is evidencing otherwise either.

  3. And we’re going to need another one in a few weeks. This is fucking insane. We don’t need stimulus. This isn’t a demand problem.
    We need to either stop trying to control so much, or come up with an actual plan that allows people to get back to work.
    And if the problem is that we don’t have enough hospital beds and ventilators, why the fuck aren’t they spending a $trillion on those things instead of making a big money fire so people can continue not producing the things we all need.

    1. Exactly. We squeezed off supply. If we let people back out of their homes, the supply can be turned back on to fill the demand.

    2. Careful now zeb, chipper assumes you’re blindly supporting trump because he is too dumb to comprehend what your argument is.

      1. No, I know Zeb is not an idiot.

        1. You dont know much chipper, see your response to my response.

    3. Yeah it’s crazy. Government is talking about handing out an unfathomable amount of money, 10% of our GDP, $2 Trillion dollars. Yet they complain about having to pay 3-400% markups for “much needed” masks despite the obvious increase in demand.

      And they wonder why there’s a shortage.

      You go waive even $2 Billion dollars in front of our manufacturing base in terms of contracts, and I can guarantee you get the masks, beds, and respirators that you want.

      1. You’re so right! The solution to this crisis is so simple and so less expensive. The federal government simply says: “The market is open, we’re buying! We want face-masks, test kits, respirators, hospital supplies,… We want good quality stuff, we want quick deliver and we’re paying top dollar. We don’t care where you’re from–US, China, Mexico. If you’re selling, we’re buying”. Of course the price would go up, it has to for the supply to go up!

        It’s as if, in WW2, we were to say: “Stop spending so on guns, tanks and planes. Let’s instead give $1000 to every American and encourage them to spend it”.

        It’s absolute lunacy!

    4. “We need to either stop trying to control so much, or come up with an actual plan that allows people to get back to work.”

      Let’s see, there’s a word for such a “plan”, and it doesn’t include a “plan” at all!
      Get the fuck out of the way and let people do what they please.

    5. Amen, Zeb.

      When the only tool you love is a hammer, everything and everyone looks like a nail.

      Congresscritters of both parties love spending. So every “crisis” is liberating. It’s un-American to question it… how much, or where it is really going. The rubes even think it’s all about their $1200…

  4. Obama imagined 2 trillion just fine. Remember, we had almost a trillion bailout and a trillion stimulus and 2 trillion in QE.

    1. And he rolled in the one time TARP and Stimulus into even more by having the baseline budget post 2010 assume the spending from 2009.

    2. Obama added $8.588 trillion to the National debt.
      George W. Bush added $5.849 trillion.

      Donald Trump added :FY 2019 – $1.203 trillion
      FY 2018 – $1.271 trillion.

      As with as federal spending and debt, it’s still 6/10 Congress’ fault.

        1. 1.2*8=9.6

          What’s your point? In terms of total money he’s not there (yet) but in terms of per year he’s doing a good job of ramping it up.

          And that’s not counting this bill. Your point though that spending/budget isn’t just on the executive is a fair one though.

          1. The bill had not passed as of my post.

    3. How many trillion dollar coins were being contemplated in the previous administration?

  5. If this was passed without a quorum, does anyone have standing to sue?

    1. You’d have to show standing… maybe your grandchildren could sue?

    2. “does anyone have standing to sue?” — ACTUALLY YES!!!! Someone – anyone!!! PLEASE…. Throw this bill into the judiciary system because it is BLATANTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL…

      1. Sue the government for what? Money? Sure, you win. Fine. Money printer go BRRRRRR.

        1. I’d just like see the U.S. Constitution mean something and be enforced again. This bill as well as probably 90% of the last decade is wildly unconstitutional and everyone knows it – perhaps the judicial system will finally “Honor their oath of office”…

  6. Man, that 2 trillion we tacked on before for tax cuts would’ve been nice right about now. Still dumb, but nicer than incurring debt in a “great economy.”

    1. OR… we could have started from a much worse economy if not for the tax cuts.

      1. Nah. The trend was basically intact from 2009 on. Tax cuts inflated the bubble. Corona is both a cause and a catalyst.

        1. What bubble? The stock market? You can’t honestly believe that the stock market wouldn’t have gone down from COVID even without the tax cuts.

          We might have well been heading to a correction, but I just don’t get how the tax cuts contributed. If you’re saying government debt is the problem, then why focus on the tax cuts and not the reckless spending?

          1. Lefties are getting scared because the $23 trillion National debt is in fact causing problems and tipping Americans away from government solving problems.

            1. Current events don’t seem to support that very well.

              1. Just because government is doing something does not mean that Americans support it.

                In fact, I would argue that poor Congressional polling supports this conclusion. Voters still only get to choose between a turd and turd sandwich.

          2. “…..why focus on the tax cuts and not the reckless spending?”

            That’s madness! You’re incoherent, you’re babbling nonsense!

            Haha. Resentment always wins out over common sense.

        2. Yes we understand. You think we should always tax to the governments desired spending level. You’re a leftist.

          1. +1000

    2. “Man, that 2 trillion we tacked on before for tax cuts would’ve been nice right about now.”

      We could also have started at a higher level if lefty assholes like you didn’t waste X-millions trying to impeach Trump for some late library book returns.
      Asshole.

      1. Or a fake investigation into collusion they knew never happened within weeks of starting it yet they continued it for over a year.

  7. I don’t know, I could imagine quite a bit.

    /Han Obama

  8. Because this worked so well in the Weimar Republic, didn’t it?

    I’m worried about hyperinflation.

    1. Not much inflation during 2008 and 2009 stimulus. The fed and others have gotten creative in managing that balance sheet.

      What you should be worried about is the $200 trillion in underfunded liabilities coming over the next several decades. That will have to be dealt with, but neither major party or anyone really in Congress has the balls.

      1. Inflation might just be the cure to the underfunded liabilities. Just wait until seniors have to get by on today’s SS payments at half their purchasing power.

        1. Old people don’t tend to handle their stock investments personally, so I am quite certain that most senior portfolios took a scary hit 1Q 2020.

  9. This is Obama’s economy, so….

  10. Well, at least Obama saved a few bucks by not replacing the masks he pulled out of ’emergency’ stock.

  11. I noticed that the fuckers in Congress combined couples into one Treasury check.

    I don’t think that I am getting a check to tear up and send to unreason because our income or taxable income is outside the parameters that I saw. We’ll see.

  12. Yea, pulling $2 trillion out of thin air sucks.
    The fed giving grants or no interest loans to airlines sucks.
    The fed handing out money to everyone, including people who lost their jobs to the pan(ic)demic sucks.
    But I ask this: what does the alternative look like?

    1. Put out big contracts for necessary medical supplies. You want to throw money around, spend it on the actual problem. Support people who are particularly vunlerable to the disease. Encourage everyone else to get back to work and be careful out there.

      Seems like a better plan to me.

      1. And when the airline industry collapses?

        1. Somebody will come by and buy up the planes that make the companies worth having, without the risky debt the current companies are holding.

          1. Probably true at some point (though this would be unlikely for the cruise industry).
            But until then, 90% reduction in international and cross country travel?
            No domestic airline industry?
            Complete economic collapse?

            1. Isn’t that happening now?

              1. Yes, and most of us hope briefly

          2. This ^^

            And for every industry, business, and individual. No bailouts, No stimulus giveaways, and very little unemployment. The pandemic requires a paradigm shift from economic and social fragility to economic and social resilience. Who better to lead the way than those individuals and companies the were so economically and socially resilient as to be ready to buy the wreckage from the economically and socially fragile, and build it anew into something better, and better suited to this risky new reality?

            1. This is the this, which I meant:

              “Somebody will come by and buy up the planes that make the companies worth having, without the risky debt the current companies are holding.”

        2. The planes and infrastructure won’t disappear. Maybe someone else will do a better job of it.
          As far as I know air freight is still going along.

        3. The airline industry won’t collapse. People will still need to fly. They aren’t doing much of it now but they will again. The planes aren’t going to fall apart between now and then.

    2. “But I ask this: what does the alternative look like?”

      Let the economy begin running again; get the fuck out of the way.

      1. As much as I support this, unfortunately it won’t be happening anytime soon. No matter how much the mortality rate continues to be downgraded people are freaking out and demanding everyone lock themselves up because the media is driving this, not science.

  13. And it’s fairly clear that nobody knows how the economy works anymore.
    We keep adding debt, we keep adding currency… but where is the inflation? Where is the collapse?
    Is it all in housing, healthcare, and education?
    We’ve been hearing how everything “we’re” doing with economic policy is wrong – for 2 decades (if not longer). I’d have thought we’d see some consequences by now.
    But what has changed?

    1. That’s really a good question.

      Who knows? I suspect everything seems like it’s OK until it’s not. I’m a little worried we may start to see the consequences of the past few decades in the next year.

      1. The Government Accountability Office and Congressional Budget Office were calling the country’s long-term fiscal outlook “unsustainable” back when the good times were still rolling.

        And yet *somehow* things were “sustained”.

    2. The dollar is still the reserve currency, holding everything above water.

      1. Because that explains everything, eh eunuch?
        I don’t understand why you insist upon posting when you have nothing to say

        1. Maybe it’s because wealth is so concentrated in the hands of so few and when combined with increased productivity from every corner of the world is tampers inflationary pressure.

    3. Deficits don’t matter, dude.

      Nothing changed. That’s the way it always was. We’ve been blowing up the debt for like half a century now. Republicans and Democrats alike.

      Doesn’t matter. There is no tipping point. No one is ever calling the debt due. That’s just not how it works.

  14. “Even as we have had to spend our way out of this recession in the near term, we’ve begun to make the hard choices necessary to get our country on a more stable fiscal footing in the long run.”

    Emphasis added. “Begun”, in the sense of becoming dimly aware of a possible problem for someone in the future.

    1. A hard choice would be NOT throwing 2T down the toilet and letting people fend for themselves.

  15. My big discomfort is having a credit/debt based economy. And it’s not just government way but, more importantly, the basis of our consumer system.
    Everything is financed on credit – from sensible things like mortgages to typical consumer spending like groceries on credit cards.
    How does this not make everything more expensive and distort demand? It is not exceptional, but routine (and worse: necessary), to buy what one cannot immediately afford.
    It’s a precarious system.
    And while we rightly condemn China’s social credit score, do we even pause to consider the impact of basing our own way of life on credit scores?
    Ramble over

    1. do we even pause to consider the impact of basing our own way of life on credit scores?

      Hell, no! Improve Your Credit Scores Instant for Free

    2. There’s more shit being produced than we could ever use. I’ve inherited and stand to inherit so much shit I could stop buying shit now and I’d still be drowning in shit.

  16. How much is $2.3 trillion? My guess is that it’s enough to get Krugman to criticize it. I’m not sure how he’ll do it, but we’re in an emergency situation, desperate times call for desperate measures, tough times call for tough men, and I’m sure Krugman can come through with an inspirational rationale for his economic analysis that will be just the opposite of what he’s known to have said before.

    This is, after all, the same guy who criticized Obama’s big stimulus as being woefully inadequate to the task and suggesting it needed to be at least twice that size. And that the only “shovel-ready” job that mattered was shoveling money out the door, it mattered not a bit how the money got out there – pay a bunch of people to go around burying bags of money and paying other people to dig them up, didn’t matter. Just spend a couple trillion dollars however you can, that’ll fix things.

    This right after criticizing Bush’s big spending on the Iraq War since you can’t just go wastefully spending a couple trillion dollars on producing war material without it doing huge amounts of damage to the economy.

  17. “…near-universally despised Rep. Thomas Massie (R–Ky.)…”

    Despised because he’s a libertarian, unlike Justin Amash.

  18. People who say there’s been no inflation are stooges. The money is being printed and handed to rich people, so the price inflation is seen is what rich people buy: real estate and stocks.

    1. Inflation is there. People just need to look at price comparisons over the decades. Some inflation is created by the USA getting wealthier and wealthier. Most is caused by government manipulating currency and financial policy.

    2. Yep

  19. I’ll bet Obama can sure identify with all the pork in the silly stimulus plan. As usual, the perps will reap the most benefits and you will need to hire an accountant or lawyer to apply for benefits if you are a small business. This is only round one. I expect the red ink to top $5 trillion by the end of the year.

    1. I find we talk too much about the empty suit.

      He’s not gone enough. His wife too.

      1. She is coming back.

        1. Biden’s VP. That is how she’ll get the presidency.

  20. It’s mostly self-induced.

    The calculus is: What is the cost of doing something v. nothing?

    Good luck with that. Here in Canada both the Feds and Provinces are pumping money into small business. But the way I see it, if the government is going to mandate a shut down, then the least they could do is support business on some level – after all, they did pay into the system through a combo of corporate (including payroll) and income taxes.

    We know where Coolidge would land.

    That being said, Trump even beat Obama at stimulation. Or is it stimulating?

  21. Trump is Obama’s third term.
    Trumpulus is a dramatically more biggly piggly Porkulus.

    Massie was very Trumpy, until this nationalist / socialist Godzilla hit the floor. Kicking him out might be kicking out the last Republican; but, like with almost no C-19 testing, that voice vote ensures that we will never know the truth.

    Trump and Xi are such great pals for a reason.

    1. “Trump and Xi are such great pals for a reason.”

      There are treatments for TDS. You should seek some.

  22. “The CARES Act plunges the nation into a crash course on experimental economics.—and we’re the lab rats.”

    No, it doesn’t; this is not “experimental”.
    This is one more try at central economic planning, following the exercise implemented a couple of weeks ago allowing every tin-pot local dictator to shut down the national economy.
    IOWs, this is the follow-on ‘5-year-plan’ to fix the results of the disastrous earlier ‘5-year-plan’.
    It will follow in the foot steps of every effort in this regard since 1918: It will fail.
    Every.
    Goddam.
    Time.

    1. They’re addicted.

      1. Just one more hit, right?
        “Here’s what Nancy Pelosi wants in Congress’ next big coronavirus bill”
        https://www.sfgate.com/search/?action=search&firstRequest=1&searchindex=solr&query=pelosi+pans+for+next+bail-out

        Start with one ‘5-year-plan’, fix that one with a new ‘5-year-plan’ in a week or so, rinse and repeat.
        It’ll be different this time.

  23. Washington Examiner › news › he-…
    ‘He did promise America First’: Clinton mocks Trump after US becomes nation with most …

    Is this what would have saved us Welch?

  24. Interesting this article does NOT list the projets, categories, targets, etc, for this lavish distrobution of FedBux. From what little I’ve seen in that regard, there is almost nothing that has much connexion to this silly virus that has near everyone’s knickers all beknotted.

    Airline bailouts? Subsidies for this and that? MORE money poured down the four inch vertical black pipe that ends up in the CDC building, where they do almost NOTHING beneficial in regards tracking and helping to prevent the spread of disease. They find plenty of other things to waste it on, though, which is why they nevre bothered to replace all those N 95 masks the kinyun pilfered seven years ago when some thing or other happened… all they want to do these days is give money to already overpaid pharma companies to figure out the next list of mandatory vaccines they want all of us to get, then the money to develop and “test” them and huge marketing programmes to tell us how wonderful they are and when they want us to start lining up to get poked.

    Trump should refuse to sign this atrocious piece of paying paper, as it does NOT address nationwide needs, but special interest groups.

    1. Trump has already signed it. He signed it as fast as he could. Trump has been seeking a $1T+ stimulus plus since he took office. Using the Obama strategy of never letting a crisis go to waste, he now has his $2T+ Trumpulus.

      Trump is Obama’s third term.

      1. This is Obamas economy after all.

        You know why Trump is the best President in US history? Because Lefties hate him more than any republican president they have hated. If the Party of slavery hates you that much, you must be doing something right.

        1. “Because Lefties hate him more than any republican president they have hated.”

          True, and what I really dread is the day that they get over Trump’s boorishness enough to recognize that the lifelong lefty is still one of them and governs in a way so very near their wildest (Trumpulus = 2x Porkulus) wishes; that they join forces against Americans. Maybe, this is their joining; happening behind a smokescreen of mean tweets.

          1. Exactly. If Democrats had any brains, they would be lavishing Trump with praise while he agrees to all their demands.

            1. Well, Trump is white and rich – and if anyone doesn’t know with all certainty that the Democrats are the party of racist, envious, criminals and a hate group – they haven’t been paying attention.

              3/4 of the prison population is registered Democrats.

    2. Tionico
      March.27.2020 at 7:55 pm
      “Interesting this article does NOT list the projets, categories, targets, etc, for this lavish distrobution of FedBux….”

      Irrelevant.
      This is central-planning for a large part of the economy. It matters not who is the supposed beneficiary, it matters only that the entire package is a centrally-planned economic package. Such efforts have failed everywhere and always.
      Every.
      Goddam.
      Time.

  25. And the biggest culprit to this mess is “FEDERAL” — Federal is a pack of everyone…. Not everyone has COVID-19…. Many states only have 1 or 2 area’s of concern. But EVERYONE has to steal from their neighbor or the future???

    The Constitution doesn’t authorize the federal government to do wealth redistribution… IT’S a VIOLATION of the USA.. This is a Local, County, City, State ISSUE and would be handled 100000000 times better that way….

  26. “And the biggest culprit to this mess is “FEDERAL”…”

    Nope; irrelevant.
    This is central-planning for a large part of the economy. It matters not who is the supposed beneficiary, it matters only that the entire package is a centrally-planned economic package. Such efforts have failed everywhere and always.
    $2.3Tn has been removed from the economy, roughly 1/10 of the current total, and (with the obvious frictional loses) ‘re-distributed’ by the government, as if the government had any idea where that money is required.
    That money, now removed from voluntary trade, no longer adds to the wealth of humanity; by fault of coercion, it has now become a drag on that wealth.
    Central financial planning, as it obvious to anyone who has read history beginning at least in 1918, has FAILED miserably…
    Every.
    Goddam.
    Time.
    And in most cases (Judt, “Post War”) has resulted in centralized murder.
    You think it will be different this time?

    1. But, but, but the world ends in 12 years anyway, so…

      Now all hath seen the sausage makin’
      Got Pork? Go ahead and hide beneath checks to individuals, see?

      What’s FREE now, costs incrementally more later – it’s the magic of compound interest.

      Worry not, for inflation cometh, brethren.
      (living wage $15/hr won’t buy avocado toast for a week.

      WHY GO FORTH? Just “Imagine” the sound of pigs at the troughs wallowing in the swamp; multiply by lobbyists and donors, and activists pigeons!
      A cacophony of deafening noise.

    2. Well – true but certainly not “irrelevant”…

      Federal re-distribution will destroy the entire USA whereas only States, Counties and/or Cities will be destroyed by their own stupidity. Remember Detroit?

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  28. Oh matt, matthew, mattie,
    Soetero had no economics bean counters for barry to exploit, opting instead for overwhelmingly deficient staff that kissed on his scrawny mulatto cheeks.
    THIS BILL funds Lincoln Center reno – obviously dire for pandemic corralling, PBS for failed liberal psychotics, planned “parenthood” for killing future welfare needy and regulation funding on planes and auto emissions, so Uber and Lyft drivers to pick up yorkers in rickshaws.

  29. Since there are only about 100 million taxpayers, 2.3 trillion will cost us around 23,000 dollars each. People act like this money is free.

    1. Some people imagine the government has money to hand out. They and others imagine the government has some idea or where that money should go.
      No, the government doesn’t. This is central planning which has failed…
      Every.
      Goddam.
      Time.

  30. National debt, in a sovereign country acts, potentially, like a future tax, on those wealthy enough to honor it, or lend the money… And a national debt acts real free money for now. I say potential, because, if one is Argentina and the money comes from foreigners, one may have to pay part of it… But if one is the US, one doesn’t have to pay any of it.
    One of the reason the European economy has stagnated is that it has insisted to inflict high taxes on citizens, instead of much more forgiving debt (which growth can erase; so debt enables and incites a sovereign country to grow faster…)
    As it is, moreover, Trump’s two trillion is not necessarily a debt. And it’s actually six trillion dollars.
    Japan has a national (“Federal”) debt in excess of 200% of GDP. On March 27, it had only 49 deaths from Coronavirus, out of 1,700 cases, with a (so far) completely flattened curve, and a death rate per million not even one tenth that of the USA. In general the Japanese economy had not been doing badly with that debt… maintaining, for example a first class universal health system…. At a time when the USA is demonstrating, for the whole world to see, that a profit guided health system is a colossal disaster. Indeed, soon the USA may have much more than a million Coronavirus cases, and that will be imputable in part to not have been willing to spend more on healthcare (instead of spending on the billionaires who profit from US healthcare).

    The Federal government created two trillion dollars as direct help with CARES. To this one has to add 4 trillions of the US Federal Reserve at the disposal of banks through leverage (to start with; the Fed has said it will create whatever money is needed). None of this money is really debt. At most it means part of the US economy is getting nationalized (the average citizen becomes a shareholder).

    Take four cases I personally know of:
    Picture a 500 rooms/apartments hotel/resort without any revenue for the rest of the year. It’s a “family business”. It has employees, pays their healthcare 100%. It’s at 7,000 feet, it has large fixed cost in heating, security, maintenance. And revenue is now zero. And will stay so for many months. What to do? A bank loan! But where does the bank get the money from? The Federal Reserve, which lends it at zero interest!

    Picture my climbing gym. Actually a company with a dozen climbing gyms, with course setters, maintenance, staff, and paying 100% health care. Same story as the preceding.

    Third example: a research institute in AI getting its money from corporations with now zero revenue. They said they were firing all their scientists, effective in June. The Trump administration is stepping in.

    Fourth example: Several science museums I know. There is money for them in the two trillions. Trump himself explained the Kennedy Center for the Arts needed 25 millions to pay salaries, maintenance (the Dems wanted 35 millions initially).

    What is important is that expertise not be lost. OK, a bit of expertise lost in completely useless parts of the economy will be OK… But futuristically essential services should be maintained. For example in teaching, research, industrial base.

    The mightiest states are always living with fiat money. The Inca were using knots on ropes. The very fact a state can impose fiat money is an expression of its power. As it is, there is going to be a hole of one third of GDP, because one third of all transactions in one year will not happen. So the state making it so that it will appear these transactions did happen… Even if they didn’t.

    Debt, left unpaid, means some people with excess capital may be cheated on. But debt, left unpaid, can save an economy. What is it not to like? I always said that Trump, as his chronology and behavior indicates, was truly a real Democrat (aka “populist”). TARP, organized by Obama, was truly a Transfer of Assets to Rich People. Whereas CARES has tight oversight, and pays the average family (which TARP didn’t do). CARES is the right thing to do. The alternative was a depression worse than 1929.
    .

    1. I’m always amused by how those who are completely wrong have to write the longest comments on why their wrong is right.

      You just filled up a whole screen about how my labor and produce (which I receive USD$ for is supposedly worthless) because ___, because ___, because ____…. Your excuses don’t violate reality.

      FYI: TARP was repaid. The cost was returned. The people who were ripped off by AARA never were re-reimbursed. Neither will anyone of the CARES act. It’s the law preforming THEFT and no length of buts and because is going to change that.

      1. More importantly “TARP was repaid” — by the VERY sector that received it and not some “other” party that got ripped off..

      2. “My my my…,” it’s ALL about YOU man. Nothing more needs to be said ’bout that.
        There is no cost for a currency sovereign IF the economy is operating in robust fashion. Paying back TARP reduced the money supply-recessionary!

        1. …and there is the problem… Lefties compulsively have this idea in their heads that what is MINE (i.e. My) isn’t.. It’s criminal!!!

          … and they’ll twist every which way they possibly can to justify their criminal ideology… Money Supply, Money means nothing, Currency isn’t really “owned”, etc.. etc.. etc..

          Same stupidity over and over and over again ALL excuses for why they have to STEAL from others.

          1. … and inside their own minds they’ll play this dishonest with themselves games about how, “It really isn’t like that” and they are right!! It really isn’t !!-LIKE-!! that… IT IS THAT EXACTLY!!!

      3. I am amused by the fact you brandish an insult (“completely wrong”)… But can’t even complete a sentence explaining what you are complaining about. We are left with suspension points…
        As someone else said, TARP was repaid by those who profited immensely from it. The TARP money was extracted from We The People, and given to those plutocrats who had lost it to the other plutocrats (through short selling, etc.)
        TARP was not all: there was 7 trillion (with a t) dollars of Quantitative Easing… which enabled the wealthiest bank deciders to lend to the wealthiest.

        The end result was that, at the end of Obama’s reign, inequality in the US was the highest ever.

        The present Trump stimulus package seems more directed to the non-wealthy… And it’s probably not enough, probably… Saint Louis Fed just warned that 47 million jobs could be lost in the Spring quarter (on top of the 4 millions already lost).

        1. Obama’s Quantitative Easing has no relation to the TARP bill – try the AARA bill.

    2. Federal debt is nothing more than bank savings deposits at the Fed, a burden on no one, especially the Monetarily Sovereign US federal govt.

      1. “Federal debt is nothing” — YEP… SEE!!! Exactly as I said in the above response.

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  32. But the twin rise of President Donald Trump and Sen. Bernie Sanders (I–Vt.), along with the strains of populism they channeled, chased deficit hawks to the despised corners of polite society by 2015.

    Welch is saying Trump was responsible for whatever he did before 2015, I.e. as a private businessman.

    TDS is strong in this one.

  33. Trumpulus keeps getting even worse with each bit of news:

    Trump Axed Congressionally-Mandated Pandemic Recovery Oversight with Stimulus Bill Signing Statement

    https://www.mediaite.com/crosspost/trump-axed-congressionally-mandated-pandemic-recovery-oversight-with-stimulus-bill-signing-statement/

    Now, it’s not only a nationalist / socialist invasion of the economy; but an enormous slush fund to be secretly split among Trump and his cronies.

    Not that Congresses oversight would be perfect, but at least with it the information would leak to the public. Sad is it not that our government is so bad that individuals only hope is that its nastiest secrets leak.

    1. beating a dead thread, but for the record…

      If Trump is so bad, why did Congress give him this special $500 Million Dollars. Seems pecuniarly criminal to me, but…. OK.

  34. Time for all states to secede and liquidate the federal government.

  35. What most Trump supporters real or those faking it will not acknowledge is that Trump has been a failure most of his life. He is fortunate that he generally gets out with little consequence. The wreckage falls on his investors and creditors. That why most of the real business people avoid him and he deals with the shadier lot. He has taken a good economy and trashed it. He spent money we did not have. He got in trade wars we did not need. And now he was sleeping and missed a pandemic. He will be fine and we the American people will deal with the wreckage. We will need another Obama type to come in an get the economy back on track.

    1. Obama trashed the economy you reality denier… They didn’t call it the Great Recession for nothing.

      Trump did a lot of deregulation, worked out better trade negotiations, supported the Constitution of which Obama didn’t even acknowledge existed.

      Move your Nazi (National Socialist) *ss out of here. This is not a Democracy… It’s a Republic…

      1. You need to take some time and read some recent history.

        1. “recent history”?? LMAO!!!! It’s funny you miss the very contradiction that presents itself as plain as day..

        2. You need to stop “reading” and letting other people brainwash you against what reality will teach you right outside your front door.

  36. We’re not bailing out companies that failed. We’re bailing out companies that were shut down by government in a pandemic. There is no question that the government must compensate them, just as they must compensate me for taking away my house so they can build a casino over it.

    Unlike 2009 we don’t really have weeks to debate the most optimal bailout or how to use it as leverage so GM could restructure. We’re fast approaching some seriously uncharted territory.

    Whatever bailout money companies and individuals receive is likely not enough to reverse the damage that’s already done, and we’re barely a month into shutdown. “Company X is getting too much money” might be a valid point in a vacuum, but in the grand scheme of things it’s hollow.

    1. NONE of that is the Federal Governments JOB…. Stop pretending we elected a monarchy king. Read you Constitution – you’re severely confused!!!

  37. COVID-19 hysteria is giving us a glimpse of America under Bernie Sanders and it’s happening while Trump occupies the White House. Trumptards and Bernie Bros should be holding hands in quarantine.

    On a sidenote it’s amazing how many Americans are so eager to destroy our economy over a flu strain. Are we going to shutdown again for COVID-20? Those promoting months of economic strife are promoting the eventual rioting, looting and breakdown.

  38. Taxpayers OWN, never owe US federal debt. Federal debt is nothing more than bank savings deposits at the Fed. The federal govt does not borrow one single penny in any debt account at the Fed. Author is either an idiot that does not understand federal financing or is a blatant liar in the pocket of the rich and powerful who desire nothing more than increasing the wealth and power gaps between themselves and the rest. By the way, the federal debt could conceivably be paid off by tomorrow simply by returning the dollars in securities (debt) accounts over to each debt holder’s checking account. DEBT paid off in full.

    1. “Federal debt is nothing more than bank savings”
      i.e. “Debt = Savings” — Carry on with your bad self. You belong in prison with the rest of the crooks.

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  40. Magic money. So much, much more money than needed. Loons determined to enslave taxpayers.

    1. Re-enact Slavery?? “But it’s an emergency because!!!………………
      pick one ——
      – The sun went down
      – The temperature changed
      – Someone is poor
      – I see smoke
      – Those people are of the wrong political party
      – Those people are of the wrong sex
      – Those people are of the wrong color
      – Those people are of the wrong religion
      – Those people have the wrong amount of wealth
      – Just because I’m an angel and slavery is charity
      – People who think they can just ‘own’ what they create are just ‘greedy’ (oh wait; isn’t that exactly promoting slavery?)

  41. A perspective on the recent US government 2.3 trillion $ bailout.

    If you stacked up thousand-dollar bills:
    One million dollars would reach four inches high.
    One billion dollars would reach 333 feet high.
    One trillion dollars would reach 64 miles high.
    Two-point three trillion dollars would reach 148 miles high.

    The current national debt of over 25 trillion dollars would reach over 1,600 miles high.
    The International Space Station orbits at an average of 250 miles high.

    Does anybody know where I can get a thousand dollar bill?

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  43. Oh come on it’s not like this is real money,it’s Federal manna from heaven.

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  46. Graphic illustration of what one trillion dollars looks like ( in $100 bills)

    http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html

  47. I love it. The more they spend the sooner it will collapse and we can rebuild Libertopia on its ashes!

  48. I only need 0.001% of $ 2.3 trillion dollars… Watch Star Sports Live Streaming

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