Feds Used a Secret Database to Track Journalists Covering the Migrant Caravan: Reason Roundup
Plus: Facebook says it's pivoting to privacy, and congressional Democrats want to "save the internet."

Remember the unfounded hysteria over the migrant caravans making their way toward America's border last year? Well, the U.S. government came up with a constitutionally questionable way to address it. KNSD has obtained leaked Department of Homeland Security (DHS) documents showing that the feds created a secret list of journalists covering the caravan, at least one U.S.-based immigration attorney, activists, "organizers," "instigators," and others.
The list has 59 names, mainly American citizens. Ten reporters were included in the database, seven of them U.S. citizens.
For the most part, inclusion on the list has meant additional questioning from Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) agents at the border as part of a "secondary screening." During that screening, journalists and lawyers say, they are "told that they are being interviewed as part of a national security investigation and that they must give officers access to their cell phones," NBC reports.
For some, it meant alerts were placed on their passports. At least three photojournalists could not get into Mexico as a result, KNSD says.
On the database, each person's name includes a photo, country of citizenship, and "role," as well as information about whether an alert has been placed on their passport and whether they have been interviewed by border officials, had their visa revoked, or been arrested or deported. An unnamed DHS source tells KNSD that border agents created a dossier for each person in the database.
The Mexican government appears to be involved as well. The front page of the list has the seal of the International Liaison Unit, a government agency that coordinates intelligence efforts between the two countries.
NPR and The Intercept have previously reported on journalists, lawyers, and activists who say they've been harassed at the border. These latest reports seem to confirm their claims.
So what did the feds have to say for themselves? Per NBC:
CBP told NBC News the names on the list are people who were present during violence that broke out at the border with Tijuana in November and they were being questioned so that the agency could learn more about what started it.
"This is an outrageous violation of the First Amendment," American Civil Liberties Union staff attorney Esha Bhandari says in a statement. "The government cannot use the pretext of the border to target activists critical of its policies, lawyers providing legal representation, or journalists simply doing their jobs."
A senior ICE official who had no involvement in the database tells BuzzFeed that "it is hard to support this activity," especially considering the DHS didn't have any specific goals in mind. "It starts to smack of dictatorship or the persecution of actors and press during the 'red scare,'" the official says.
FREE MINDS
Facebook pivots to privacy. Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg announced in a lengthy blog post yesterday that the social media network would shift to being a "privacy-focused communications platform":
Today we already see that private messaging, ephemeral stories, and small groups are by far the fastest growing areas of online communication….Many people prefer the intimacy of communicating one-on-one or with just a few friends. People are more cautious of having a permanent record of what they've shared. And we all expect to be able to do things like payments privately and securely.
Essentially, the company says it plans to offer "end-to-end encryption" on its direct-messaging services, so that no one, not even Facebook itself, can see what users are saying. Zuckerberg also says the company won't be storing "sensitive data in countries with weak records on human rights," and that the direct-messaging services on Facebook and the two platforms it owns—Instagram and WhatsApp—will be integrated. In an interview with Wired, Zuckerberg says that public sharing will still exist on Facebook and Instagram, but that there's an increasing demand for "private messaging, stories that are ephemeral and don't stick around, small groups."
So is he for real? "The first question people are asking is whether Zuckerberg means what he says, and there are plenty of doubters," writes The Verge's Casey Newton. The New York Times, meanwhile, wants to know what Facebook's new business model will look like, whether users actually want the various platforms Facebook owns to be integrated, and when all of this will happen.
FREE MARKETS
Congressional Democrats want to "save the internet." The "Save the Internet Act," which Democrats introduced yesterday, "would bring back net neutrality, plain and simple," reports TechCrunch. The bill says the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) vote in December 2017 to end the Obama-era net neutrality regulations, which barred internet providers from charging websites more for faster access to their sites, "shall have no force or effect."
A report last December from Recode showed that internet speeds rose almost 40 percent in the year following that vote, which suggests that save-the-internet rhetoric was overwrought. For more on why FCC Commissioner Ajit Pai rejected the net neutrality regulations, check out his 2017 interview with Reason's Nick Gillespie here.
QUICK HITS
- Sen. Martha McSally (R–Ariz.) said during a Senate hearing yesterday she was raped by a superior officer during her service in the Air Force. McSally, the first female fighter pilot to fly in combat, said her distrust of the system caused her to not initially report what happened. But eventually, she explained, "I felt the need to let some people know I, too, was a survivor."
- Former U.S. Rep Aaron Schock, who's faced high-profile corruption charges in recent years, is off the hook as long as he pays back what he owes to the IRS and his own campaign. As Reason has reported in the past, Schock was a rising GOP star before facing allegations that he used taxpayer dollars and campaign money for such necessities as redecorating his office to resemble Downton Abbey, taking staffers to a Katy Perry concert, staying in expensive hotels, and attending sporting events. Schock resigned in May 2015.
- The U.S. "trade deficit hit a new record high at the end of 2018," Reason's Eric Boehm reported yesterday. This despite President Donald Trump's well-documented attempts, including a trade war with China, to accomplish the exact opposite.
- Be glad you don't live in Russia, where refusing to honor a Stalin statue is apparently reason enough for police to tackle you:
????? ??? pic.twitter.com/h69KtrfxDb
— ????????? ????? (@tvrain) March 5, 2019
- The NFL "is prepared to make major concessions regarding" its substance abuse policy, particularly as it relates to marijuana, NBC Sports' Mike Florio reports. As things currently stand, NFL players who are caught with or test positive for marijuana face suspensions, even if weed is legal in the state they were in. Is the NFL finally getting with the times?
- Speaking of getting with the times, the Utah legislature passed a bill Tuesday that legalizes fornication. Amazingly, sex outside of marriage is still a misdemeanor offense in that state.
- Meanwhile, a federal court* says boys can compete on their Minnesota public high schools' dance teams. Hurray for equality!
- On a sadder note, longtime Jeopardy! host Alex Trebek announced yesterday that he's been diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer, though he plans to "beat" it. Our thoughts are with the legendary game show host.
*CORRECTION: This post originally claimed a federal court in Washington State said boys can compete on their public high schools' dance teams. In fact, the ruling came out of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit, and applied to a case out of Minnesota. I regret the error.
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...the feds created a secret list of journalists covering the caravan, at least one U.S.-based immigration attorney, activists, "organizers," "instigators," and others.
Government needs an enemies list just like everyone else.
Speaking of enemies, why is Setyon stuck with this terrible assignment now?
They have a big scoreboard in the office and the writer who scores highest in a day gets to do the following day's Roundup.
What a mess that was...
They're scoring negative comments is what the scoreboard is for.
Some might call that "scoreboard" a "database"....
I just assumed it was like golf. Low score wins... and it's mind-numbingly boring to watch the whole process.
Rape and infidelity articles?? These sex links suck.
I don't know but shouldn't he be on spam duty? C'mon dude, the geosalary bots are taking over.
Do you know who else likes lists?
Schindler?
Santa?
Damn!
You know the rules. You have to go wander the desert for the next 20 years.
Santa?
EMILY?
My ex-wife?
Alehandrrrrria Ocasssssio-Corrrrteth?
AOC: Descendent of the Spanish conquistadors who spilled the blood of Native Central and South Americans over centuries of ruthless persecution, genocide, and enslavement, capped off by decades of catastrophic socialist despotism.
So, bonus points for staying true to her culture?
Angie?
Liam Neeson?
Mel Kiper Jr?
The guy who invented lists? (Yes, it was a guy)
The Dean?
Michael Hihn?
Totally forgot about being on the JournoList.
Every tourist visiting Pisa?
Hello.
"Be glad you don't live in Russia, where refusing to honor a Stalin statue is apparently reason enough for police to tackle you:"
That guy is a hero.
Wait till the Obama monuments go up.
Hey, this isn't a statue of Robert E Lee or Stonewall Jackson or some other oppressor. Benevolent figures like Stalin should have their statues respected.
Why can't the cops stand by twiddling their thumbs while *this* statue is toppled?
a secret list of journalists covering the caravan, at least one U.S.-based immigration attorney, activists, "organizers," "instigators," and others
Wait wait wait. So you mean it ISN'T the penniless Guatemalans undermining my rights by voting for socialism? You mean, it's the state that is undermining my rights in the name of trying to stop the penniless Guatemalans? No way! Nobody could have ever predicted that!
It's both Jennifer.
Essentially, the company says it plans to offer "end-to-end encryption" on its direct-messaging services, so that no one, not even Facebook itself, can see what users are saying.
So when you start seeing targeted ads for KY Jelly after having your first intimate, encrypted chat, it will just be a coincidence.
The "Save the Internet Act," which Democrats introduced yesterday, "would bring back net neutrality, plain and simple..."
Never let it be said the Democrats aren't simple.
...internet speeds rose almost 40 percent in the year following that vote, which suggests that save-the-internet rhetoric was overwrought.
They're going to have to create first an actual crisis to solve.
The continued resilience of quiet America. A great piece comparing the environment of 1969 to today.
The Welchie Boys of the world may be constantly fantasizing about murdering all their political opposition in order to usher in a Maoist leftopia, but in the meantime, quiet, normal, hard-working everyday Americans continue to do great things, just like back then.
Voltaire: "Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities"
"Only those who attempt the absurd can achieve the impossible." -Miguel de Unamuno
WTF? Words have actual meanings. The impossible, by nature of the definition of impossible, cannot be achieved, otherwise it is not impossible, just improbable.
"Only those who attempt the absurd can achieve the improbable" is just stupid.
Please leave the gobbledygook quotes on my Facebook wall like my idiot brother-in-law.
So what you're saying is you're just another cog in the sprocket not looking to upset the order.
Slacker.
"How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?"
"Only those who attempt the absurd can achieve the absurd."
But that's not really true, either...
The Welchie Boys of the world may be constantly fantasizing about murdering all their political opposition
Wait, does this mean I have to stop buying grape juice?
Just the dark kind.
"constantly fantasizing about murdering all their political opposition"
Link? I heard about it, but didn't see it.
Here you go: Matt "Welchie Boy" Welch calling for an organized mass murder of people he doesn't like.
Thanks!
I don't watch GOT but assuming some sort of massacre at a wedding.
SPOILER ALERT!
It takes a special kind of mind to think that is humor.
Yep. There's a pretty sick mofo under that harmless-looking Howdy Doody face.
I don't think Gen-Xers or Millennials really get how violent things actually got in the US during the late 60s and early 70s. Increased public support mandatory minimums, the drug war, and Nixon's appeal to law enforcement didn't just appear in a vacuum. It happened because the left completely lost its shit and started openly supporting terror bombings and shootings of law enforcement officials during the period.
And the result was the same as what happened during the 1920s--the radical left, always an itinerant political force that had no clue about the complexities of community social bonds, ended up alienating both the middle and working classes as soon as those people became inconvenienced by their antics. The same thing happens now every time Antifa or BLM do one of their protests--they don't gain the sympathy of anyone but the activist press and Democratic politicians. The Women's March organizers are at least smart enough to stage their events in a manner that doesn't piss off their fellow citizens.
Yep. And I strongly suspect that Welch wishes that he had been in the Weathermen or the Symbionese Liberation Army. He doesn't call his podcast the "Fifth Column" for no reason.
Hey man, don't dis the Fifth Column. That's like dissing Kmele Foster; he's actually solid libertarian, unlike much of Reason and the commentariat here. Don't be a Weigel.
Yeah, I have this kind of conversation with the "I can't even" crowd frequently. When I tell them to take an even strain because none of this shit is really new, they're dead sure I'm just making it up.
I don't think Gen-Xers or Millennials really get how violent things actually got in the US during the late 60s and early 70s.
I don't think baby boomers remember either.
For the Boomers, a lot of it's been glossed over in a haze of classic rock-radio nostalgia. And that's an underlying reason why the radical left didn't gain more support for their subversion and violence during the period--most people enjoyed the fashion-oriented side of the counter-culture, like the music and psychedelic artwork, but not the political ideology behind it. They didn't give a shit about Maoism or bringing down "the man" except as a contrarian exercise.
The boomers lived through Vietnam and Nixon then proceeded to start long, ongoing wars, created the DHS, created and keep voting for The Patriot Act - they are fucking garbage because they should know better. Other generations are just an extension of their bullshit.
The big protests dried up with the end of the draft. A few scattershot terrorist incidences occurred like the symbionese liberation army and weathermen. Stupidly terrorists Bill Ayers ,his wife and others were allowed to go into education and steer it into the mess it is today/
+100
Birmingham school stops LGBT lessons after parents protest
On Friday about 600 Muslim children, aged between four and 11, were withdrawn from the school for the day, parents said. The school would not confirm the number.
Get rid of public schools. Problem solved.
Britbongistan is going to be in for a hell of time once its Muslim population is large enough to actually implement Middle Eastern-style laws.
Michel Houellebecq, call your office.
How is the Guardian going to know who to demonize?
Whoever doesn't hold the power.
aged between four and 11
Now we'll never rid the four year olds of their rampant homophobia! SMDH
is it still acceptable for them to shriek about cooties when an opposite cis-gendered child touches them?
No. And NHS mandates no more cootie shots either.
What the hell is a LGBT lesson?
Here you go.
If any non-muslim tried this they'd be arrested.
Be glad you don't live in Russia, where refusing to honor a Stalin statue is apparently reason enough for police to tackle you...
In Russia, Stalin still stone cold.
"refusing to honor" looks more like "vandalism", from this point of view. If someone threw fruit at a statue here in the United States, the fact that nothing would happen to the thrower is more an indicator of apathy, not a Better Way.
Yeah, I was struck by that descriptor as well...
I'd like to know a little more context. That line of folks walking up one by one to pay homage to a Stalin bust was a bit odd. And then this dude in what I'm going to assume was a planned protest being filmed by a buddy yells something and throws something.
I have my own ideas about it - I mean, in a country where tens of millions were starved to death by Stalin, I can see where someone might find a reason to protest - but it would be nice to have the actual story behind the whole thing.
Also - to grab on to your thoughts - I wonder what folks here would make of it if someone did something similar at the unveiling of a bust of Obama? I'm gonna guess that the police or security detail might do the same thing. I'll guarantee that the media wouldn't treat him sympathetically, even if it was the parent of somebody killed at the hands of Obama's policies.
He threw two broken carnations. (Euromaidan comment here.) He wasn't arrested for vandalism because something has to be destroyed for it to be vandalism. Everyone already knows Stain was a murderer and probably murdered more people than anyone in the history of the world so he didn't ruined his reputation. What he did, literally, was refuse to honor Stalin. I know the concept of being arrested for something so irrational is hard to accept but that's exactly what happens in countries run by despots.
Putin wants the USSR back and needs history to be on his side- or at least force people to pretend history is on his side. He's a very patient man but he's getting close to the end of his patience so expect to see much more of this type of stuff.
He was trying to vandalize or show contempt to the statue.
Why was he forced to be in the line to 'honor Stalin'?
With that being said, Hitler killed millions of people and Stalin had him beat.
Trainer works for a McCainist NGO in western Ukraine, so you'll have to take everything he says with a neocon sized grain of salt
Every bust of Stalin should be in a glass box below an outhouse so everyone can watch as his legacy is buried in shit like it deserves.
Well, whatever happened there, it's still a good reason to be glad not to live in Russia, where people still apparently honor and revere one of the worlds most monstrous dictators ever.
To be fair to Russians, there are some Americans who worship monstrous Russian dictators.
True.
*shrug*
Napoleon has a grand tomb you can visit. And depending on your history so does Lincoln.
The NFL "is prepared to make major concessions regarding" its substance abuse policy, particularly as it relates to marijuana...
Raise your hand (or take a knee) if you initially read that as major concussions.
I read it in terms of pot, rather than the NFL..... So I read it as concessions (like hot dogs, beer, popcorn, etc.) Like maybe the NFL was going to start providing pot brownies at games in states where it is legal in order to drive up concession sales.....
Amazingly, sex outside of marriage is still a misdemeanor offense in that state.
Which is what makes it so hawt.
Come on it's Utah. Don't go outside of marriage, just increase the number of wives.
...in Washington state, a federal court says boys can compete on their public high schools' dance teams.
WHERE THEY ARE EXPECTED TO DOMINATE.
Funny, except it is possibly the one "sport" where that's not true. Maybe because it isn't a sport. Nobody gets scored better because they did a flip and the other person didn't. Even in solos, it is neither more or less likely that a boy will score higher than a girl. At a certain level, technique is equivalent so it comes down to performance, choreography, musicality, etc.
Minnesota having it as a 'female only' sport was obviously the state's way of trying to deal with male only sports that women don't want to play past grade school (like football) but still be able to say they had equal number of sports activities for men and women. IOW - a fake, jury-rigged solution to a non-existent problem.
The real joke in all this is that the kids who are actually *good* at dance are competing for studios or training to go on to ballet companies and wouldn't be on a dance team.
Why does Mark Zuckerberg always look like he has a corn cob shoved up his ass? And I'd trust him to keep my shit safe?
I mean the corn cob should prevent a rear attack, so there's that.
There used to be a Facebook group for that....
Like all patriotic Americans, I consider Russia an enemy and would never want to visit, much less live there.
However I'm living in a country whose President may have been a Russian intelligence asset since 1987. Which isn't much of an improvement.
#LibertariansForGettingToughWithRussia
#TrumpRussia
...longtime Jeopardy! host Alex Trebek announced yesterday that he's been diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer, though he plans to "beat" it.
What is sad?
Good luck to him. My mom was recently diagnosed and they gave her a couple months tops.
Wishing good luck to your mother as well.
My mom was recently diagnosed and they gave her a couple months tops.
Sad. I will rub one last one out in her honor in about fifteen minutes.
though he plans to "beat" it.
Who is Michael Jackson?
"Congressional Democrats want to "save the internet."
My internet connection works just fine. I access anything I want to see or read or watch (I'm not in China I'm in America).
What's the problem here? Oh....... right. They want to CONTROL the internet but claim they are saving it. Gotcha.
I access anything I want to see or read or watch
Ok, but what about what Crusty wants to watch?
I access anything I want to see or read or watch
But how do you know? Your ISP is probably blocking one million sites that you would rather be looking at if only you knew they existed.
Is this SparkY's segue into the Deep Net?
" one million sites that you would rather be looking at if only you knew they existed."
Like Reason, but with a functional comment section?>
More bad economic news.
Deal or No Deal, Trump Trade War With China Scars Global Economy
The night Drumpf stole the election, Paul Krugman predicted a global recession with no end in sight. It's scary how accurate that forecast has been.
#DrumpfRecession
#UnbanPalinsButtplug
#KrugmanWasRight
Even more bad economic news.
Abercrombie is planning to close up to 40 stores in 2019
Has any country ever declined as severely as the US has from the amazing Obama years to the economic ruin of the Drumpf era?
U.S. after FDR's election?
USA after LBJ's failed Vietnam and "Civil Rights" money pits?
Shirtless male models hardest hit.
Have they told Fitch?
"Essentially, the company says it plans to offer "end-to-end encryption" on its direct-messaging services, so that no one, not even Facebook itself, can see what users are saying"
They're essentially talking about leveraging WhatsApp for privacy--which is fucking ridiculous. Here's why:
"As details of the Cambridge Analytica scandal oozed out, [Brian Acton] sent a Tweet that quickly went viral and shocked his former employers, who had made him a billionaire many times over: "It is time. #deletefacebook." No explanation followed. He hasn't sent another Tweet since.
Now he's talking publicly for the first time. Under pressure from Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg to monetize WhatsApp, he pushed back as Facebook questioned the encryption he'd helped build and laid the groundwork to show targeted ads and facilitate commercial messaging. Acton also walked away from Facebook a year before his final tranche of stock grants vested. "It was like, okay, well, you want to do these things I don't want to do," Acton says. "It's better if I get out of your way. And I did." It was perhaps the most expensive moral stand in history. Acton took a screenshot of the stock price on his way out the door?the decision cost him $850 million.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/pa.....ce68b63f20
The question to ask yourself before you (or your friends and family) buy into Facebook's WhatsApp privacy drive is this: What do you know that the founder of WhatsApp doesn't know?
How do you expect Facebook will make it's money from WhatsApp to justify its valuation? The answer to that question is the reason why the founders of WhatsApp left Facebook in disgust (along with $850 million in options).
The first thing Acton did when he left was invest $50 million into Signal. Signal is the messaging app you should be using. Using WhatsApp for privacy after it was bought by Facebook is like hiring Harvey Weinstein to write your company's official sexual harassment policies.
Good point.
I think I could manage to fake it for another 12 months in exchange for a billion dollars.
Not like he gave it all back. It's much easier to walk away from almost a billion when you already have a billion in the bank.
like hiring Harvey Weinstein to write your company's official sexual harassment policies.
Harvey could probably come up with a few things to prohibit that you and I might never consider. Not climaxing into potted plants, for example...
This isn't important.
You mean not as important as Crusty and Sparky obsessing over guys who like to piss on each other in public, or do you mean not as important as inflation in Venezuela hitting 2,000,000%?
Write what I want about what I want and I will not complain - it's simple, Ken.
Wanting other people to smile at your stupidity is simple, isn't it.
Ken doesn't think I'm smart, and it makes me feel so stupid? Why can't I just be as stupid as I want to be in peace?
Request denied, Snowflake.
Thanks for keeping this comment, which I assume is an insult, under 4,000 words.
Yes
Be glad you don't live in Russia, where refusing to honor a Stalin statue is apparently reason enough for police to tackle you:
In Soviet Union, statues throw policemen at you!
Alright... you get a +1 for that.
On a sadder note, longtime Jeopardy! host Alex Trebek announced yesterday that he's been diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer, though he plans to "beat" it.
I certainly hope so, but that's one of the biggest SOL types of cancer you can have.
Dude's got big brass balls for staying determined to work through his treatment, though.
Yeah, I'll be praying for him.
My aunt died of pancreatic cancer. It was quick and terrible. I hope he fairs better.
It is terrible. My wife was tellling me that one of the bigger developments in cancer research this decade has been an improvement of the five year survival rate of pancreatic cancer from 6% to 9%. It is really nasty stuff. Its a shame. Trebek always seemed like a nice guy.
Trebek is 79 years old!
He's had a good life but you gotta go somehow.
He does seem like a nice guy and hopefully he does not suffer when his body kills him.
Yup. If you live to be 80 in good health, you are probably going to die of cancer of one kind or another.
We can drone if we want to.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47480207
...drone around the world
Drone if we want to
Without anything we need to reveal
My favorite was that time when Cliff Claven was on Jeapordy, and he had like a $25,000 lead on the other two contestants, and then he wagered it all on Final Jeapordy and lost.
Really? I thought that was Hillary's gig.
Who are three people who have never been in my kitchen.
Tony Curtis is still alive! Call and ask him if he's ever been in my kitchen!
Former U.S. Rep Aaron Schock should have transferred his campaign funds to from his PAC to his LLC before squandering them. Then he'd have been free as a bird to enjoy his Downton Abbey themed office ... just like AOC. I suppose he'd also have to be a Democrat.
I am not familiar with this story.... what's the deal?
http://www.nytimes.com/2019/03.....itism.html
Brett Stephens is shocked to learn the Democratic party is becoming antisemitic. Well, Omar represents a largely immigrant community who share her views about Jews. Stephens happily informed the country in 2016 that the country belongs to immigrants not to its natives. Stephens was happily willing to smugly lecture anyone who was concerned about the nation being transformed into something else because of immigration then. Suddenly, the nation transforming isn't so appealing to him. If you invite millions of antisemites into the country, you shouldn't be surprised when the country becomes more antisemetic and those people elect politicians who represent their views.
Stephens thinks anyone who worries that the country is turning into Hondurous is a racist. Well, if that is true, then worrying it is turning into Somalia is equally racist.
With any luck, Bret Stephens will be beaten into a coma by the very people he advocated for so he could get SJW good boy points.
And Jews will be overwhelmingly voting Democrat in 2020 no matter what the Democrats do. Hell, they could nominate Omar and still get a huge majority of Jewish votes. The Democrats are just engaging in smart if very cynical politics. Why not go for the antiSemite vote when doing so doesn't cost you any Jewish votes and only gains you new votes?
I think the roots of that support for strong government go back to before the holocaust or even socialism.
In eastern and central Europe, they had a name for when the government withdrew its regulation of everyday life. It was called a "pogrom". And that kind of things goes all the way back to the Roman empire. They associate people being free to do as they please without interference from the government with people being free to perpetrate atrocities against Jews.
Whether they should be biased in that way against freedom from government control is another question, but I think it's at least understandable.
In a lot of places the central government is what kept Jewish communities alive and saved it from the mob. So, yes, I can see why they would be less skeptical of a strong government than you would think they would be given the Holocaust.
That being said, I think this issue goes deeper than that. A lot of Jews have a lot invested in the idea that the Right is the real threat to Jews. If that isn't true and it is the left that is the threat, that means leftist Jews need to face the fact that they have been working with and assisting their enemies rather than fighting their enemies. That is something that is very hard for people to admit. So, there is a huge incentive to ignore reality and pretend it is not true for as long as possible.
A lot of Jewish people still consider Socialism okay. Israel is very Socialist.
Sadly, many Jewish folks in Germany thought the German Socialist state would save them from a different kind of Socialist- Nazis. They have served Germany in WWI, after all.
Someday those Jewish holdouts might learn their lesson and not side with Socialism, Kings, Caesars, and Pharaohs.
"So, there is a huge incentive to ignore reality and pretend it is not true for as long as possible."
See Germany, ca. 1930 - 1935.
Check out the Netflix show about the Mossad.
Not sure why the old guys are blabbing about the Mossad but what they do tell relates back to what you guys are saying.
Evidently, the Mossad reports directly to the Prime Minister of Israel. Yeah, no chance of government abuse there.
Reading the comments on that article is pretty hilarious. He tries so hard to gently explain the problem but the loonies on the left will never budge an inch if it means denouncing a muslim woman refugee who looks and acts like a child. I have no sympathy for him or any of the people who pander for progressive brownie points. Hopefully one day these beta males on the beltway will realize they're not welcome and give up.
People like Stephens care more about class loyalty and fitting in with what he considers to be his class of people than he does about politics or principles. What Stephens and those like him don't understand is that the left cares more about politics and power than they do about class loyalty. When the time comes the left with will turn on him and that will be it. His loyalty to them and their class will mean nothing to them. That kind of craven stupidty is really hard to fathom.
It really does blow my mind. To get stomped on like that anytime you question their ideology and think "maybe if I go lightly they'll kill me last"
That sort of mindset is only surprising to peoples conditioned to think themselves free and independent - mostly descendants of the Greco-Christian mind set.
But the broader history or humanity is largely of a different sort. The sort that saw vast majorities accepting servitude or outright slavery. Even people exposed to the former can easily slide into the latter. Especially when your servitude is not all that uncomfortable.
The Lefties have their hierarchy of soldiers lined up.
Muslims rank higher than Jews. They really only need Jewish political contributions as the Jewish voting bloc is very small in the USA.
If Lefties can flood the USA with Muslims, like in Europe, they have Legiosn of suicidal fanatics to threaten Liberty minded Americans into submission. It worked in Europe after all.
And this is what we try to explain to Jeff every day. But he, just like Stephens, thinks they'll kill him last
"Congressional Democrats want to "save the internet."
I've had to repeat this hundreds of times to my net neutrality friends. One more time folks: If you let the government control how packets are handled..... then you let the government control how packets are handled. It will take approximately .0001 seconds for congress to decide that Net Neutrality for all packets is unconscionable and CERTAIN packets need some regulations put on them. Guaranteed.
Those "packets" are what lay people call "content". So allowing the government to regulate how "packets" are handled is allowing it to regulate how and what information is allowed on the interenet.
Don't worry..... they've already done an end-run around the need to have government doing their dirty work for them. They not only have the big name providers like Facebook, Google, etc. on board, they've got the banks, the hosting companies, the top level domain providers.......
Government banning of virtual books would be nice, but when you control all the book stores, do you really need the government to bring its guns to the party? They always end up wanting a cut anyway...
They have. And the sollution to that is to change the law allowing attorney's fees and statutory damages for Terms of Service violations by platform providers. If every time some SJW in the bowels of Google or Facebook did their duty and banned someone for the crime of being insufficiently woke, it cost the company attorney's fees and statutory damages, this nonsense would end very quickly. Understand, the Terms of Service of these platforms all claim to regulate in a content neutral way and only ban illegal or abusive content. They are all violated their TOS's like crazy and are doing so because they know even if someone sues the damages will be minimal. Change that and they will start living up to the TOS and the deplatforming problem will end.
Wait until Verizon decides to cut off peoples' cell phones because they have the 'wrong' beliefs.
And the wokeltarians will inform us that that is totally okay because of private property and all that.
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure Verizon likes money.
Sure they do. But once a corporation gets infested with SJWs, that goes right out the window. Hollywood likes money too. But that hasn't stopped the SJWs who run it from walking away from billions in the name of being a good SJW.
Feel free to carry on with crazy paranoia. I'd hate to feel like I'm the one who took that away from you people.
It is not crazy paranoia. It is true. Hollywood managed to make Star Wars a money losing franchise in the name of SJW creed. Hollywood no longer makes one of the most reliable money makers in its history; the religous epic. The Passion was a gore fest made in ancient languages with subtitles and made over $500 million dollars. Yet, there wasn't a single follow up or copy cat movie like it made afterwards. This despite there being an obvious market for it and making such a movie easy money. That is just one example among an endless stream of movie makers shooting themselves in the foot in the name of politics.
The facts are what they are. If you want to be a complete fucking dumb ass and continue to believe that reality is something other than it is, have fun. But, that doesn't make those who see it for what it is paranoid. It just makes you a dumb ass.
SparkY does not understand how propagandists work their trade in Hollywood and elsewhere.
But, that doesn't make those who see it for what it is paranoid. It just makes you a dumb ass.
I particularly like how you casually switched from Verizon to Hollywood so you could justify your ridiculous paranoia.
Hollywood is run by large corporations. If the corporations who run Hollywood will sacrifice money for SJW creed, any corproation will. You understand that. You just lost the argument and are as you always are too bullheaded and dishonest to admit it. So you instead pretend an obvously valid analogy is somehow invalid because reasons.
You just lost the argument and are as you always are too bullheaded and dishonest to admit it.
You can tell the real winners by their insistence that everyone else lost.
I've heard that you're not supposed to argue with schizophrenics either because it can make them violent when you don't conform to their reality.
I can tell the real winner by who has a cogent point and whose response is "nut uhh". And that is all you said. It was just your way of admitting you lost.
It was just your way of admitting you lost.
I'll tell you what, when Verizon cancels my service because I'm not towing the SJW lion hard enough, I'll let you know so you can do your "I told you so" dance right in my face.
Until then, I'll keep thinking you guys are ridiculous, paranoid morons.
Deal?
Yes, Sparky because it is not happening now it could never happen in the future. Yeah that is some top flight reasoning there.
I will tell you what, give me some indication that you are trainable and I will teach you how logic and argument work and save you from being ChemJeff with a less pleasent attitude.
I will teach you how logic and argument work
If I thought you were capable of teaching the subject, I'd take you up on the offer. And besides being incapable, you're also unstable and not suited to a teaching position.
If you go crazy like a monkey on crack over someone disagreeing with your "SJWs R TAKING OVER TEH WERLD" nonsense then you're not really qualified to do much else than rant on the Internet.
Poor SparkY. Never quite able to pull off those convincing arguments.
The thing is, the people who have wrong beliefs according to the SJWs is probably a majority of Verizon customers.
Obligatory, FTFY.
Deal
John, I think you really have something with that ToS legal action plan.
I remember us discussing it some months ago. A few of those lawsuits with heavy punitive damages on companies like Google, FB, and SJW sites would really give them pause.
I think they have a good case for liability. The problem is that proving damages is going to be very difficult and they are going to be very small in most cases. Heck, you could argue that some of these people have benefited from the publicity of being kicked off these platforms. So the TOS law suits are never going to deter these companies. But if you awarded attorney's fees and statutory damages, that would change.
Statutory damages might work.
The FCRA has statutory damages of at least $1000 unless you have more in actual damages. Those damages can get a Credit Reporting company's attention.
That doesn't bother progressives all that much--in fact, that's the whole point. They believe that if they can justify content management, they can effectively censor their ideological opposition with the blessing of the state once they gain power, and use it as a tool to solidify their authority.
That's a big problem with the whole "it's a private company, they can't violate your free speech!" argument--not only does it undermine the whole philosophical foundation for the principle of free expression, it empowers left-wing totalitarians to exercise social and political control over you at both the micro and macro level. Libertarians who blithely parrot this line of thinking aren't actually "defending liberty;" they're demonstrating no understanding of their ideological opponents' will to power and a complete lack of future time orientation.
Lefties will always look for loopholes in freedom loving nations to exploit in their goal of Socialist takeover.
Revealing what they are doing and talking about it the first step to thwarting them, at least temporarily.
Its a never ending battle.
Stats of the day:
"A new [September 2018] survey of more than 3,400 U.S. Facebook users finds that 44 percent of users ages 18 to 29 have deleted the app from their phones in the past year."
http://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/05.....d-app.html
44% of the little shitheads are helping to restore my faith in humanity.
"The company currently makes 98% of its revenue through advertising. By contrast, WhatsApp? which Facebook bought for $19 billion in 2014 and is hugely popular around the world?doesn't generate significant revenue."
http://www.wsj.com/articles/fa.....551899847?
Facebook currently trades at a P/E just over 22 vs. about 15 for the S&P 500. You want to justify that premium on your earnings, you better look for more growth--and the kids are dumping your app?
Meanwhile, the way to generate revenue from a messaging app on a scale large enough to add to Facebook's bottom line is not through privacy. Don't believe the hype!
Facebook is for old people. When I was younger, all of my friends were close by. I wasn't old enough to have friends scattered all over the country. So, what need would a young person even have for Facebook? Worse still once old people got on it, it took all the fun out of it for kids. Who wants to post on a forum that your grandmother or worse your parents read? The moment I saw people like my elderly aunts joining Facebook, I knew it was doomed among the young.
Yeah, the kids all moved over to Instagram.....
Well, that and Snapchat.....
Old people pretending to know what the kids are up to these days is always amusing.
Instagram is owned by Facebook, so it not really member losses to Facebook, Inc but it does signal a significant shift for the FB platform and will likely happen to Instagram.
yeah.... that was the joke...
Yeah... I was posting on the fly. Tactic is bad for missing good jokes.
And they can't generate the revenue they need to justify their stock price with privacy. And they can't keep users onboard for the long haul without privacy.
I don't know whether they go the way of MySpace two years from now or ten years from now, but if they can't do what's necessary to maintain their scale, they'll make way for competitors.
We can do projects that don't make sense to the big guys. If you have a $500 million in revenue annually, making a $5 million profit isn't enough to justify the time and effort necessary to increase their annual profit by one half of one percent. For me and my investors, that's more than enough money--because we're operating on smaller scale.
We don't compete with them because we don't have billions in equity, but they don't compete with us on our scale because they can't compete with us on our smaller scale either.
It's the same thing with Facebook over the long term. They can't choose to not sell their users' privacy to advertisers and maintain their scale--or their stock valuation would crash. Some smaller competitor can come in and eat their lunch, but they won't make anywhere near as much profit. That's okay. Things turn into a commodity business. There used to be fat profit margins in making TV sets. Now, they're razor thin for the manufacturers. That's the way industries grow and mature.
Long term, there's only one way out for Facebook that I see: rent-seeking. It'll take the form of privacy legislation, too.
>>>>44% of the little shitheads are helping to restore my faith in humanity.
they still think they're socialists ... so cute
As if the attempted modern-day lynching of Jussie Smollett wasn't enough evidence that systemic racism still exists, now we have this.
Self-driving cars may be likelier to hit black people than white people
White supremacy is so prevalent in our society that even artificial intelligence is racist.
#BlackPedestrianLivesMatter
#EndVehicularRacism
OBL, didn't you know that it was written:
On that train all graphite and glitter,
Undersea by rail,
90 minutes from New York to Paris,
A just machine to make big decisions,
Programmed by fellow with compassion and vision,
We'll be clean when their work is done,
We'll be eternally free yes and eternally young
Isn't that what you, Camel Toe Harris, Lizzy, AOC and Koch / Reason libertarians want?
Smart, fast, fossil-free trains?
A "just" machine? If its just, it must be progressive and Koch / Reason libertarian friendly.
Programmed by fellow with "compassion" and "vision?" Don't we want such fellows?
That the machines have calculated that black pedestrians don't matter, and that vehicular racism is no more important than a pimple on the penis of a protozoa, we can at least take comfort in the fact that we will be eternally free and eternally young.
It's best to avoid any car that has a white hood.
HA! Nice.
>>>White supremacy is so prevalent in our society that even artificial intelligence is racist.
i mean if you're gonna put "intelligence" and "artificial" together and *believe* the cylon, maybe it's correct? far be it from me ...
If you read the article, it's funny in that they're building in biases on top of biases. They're looking at the training data*, talking about how they included mostly white samples and didn't weight the black samples hard enough. Literally zero discussion about the fact that black people congregate in inner cities, walk more places, and are closer to the color of asphalt than white people.
*And by 'looking at the training data' I mean they've already decided that making teams more diverse is the solution and are trying to torture their conclusions into the data.
"Kamala Harris' Big Policy Idea Is Even Worse Than I Thought"
[...]
"...the University of Pennsylvania's Penn Wharton Budget Model has concluded it would cost $3.1 trillion over a decade. The conservative Tax Foundation estimates it would be slightly cheaper: $2.8 trillion...."
https://slate.com/business/2018/11/kamala-harris
-big-policy-idea-is-even-worse-than-i-thought.html
She's still my first choice unless Hillary Clinton enters the race.
#LibertariansForHarris
#Nonihilisticnegroes
404
Well, the U.S. government came up with a constitutionally questionable way to address it. KNSD has obtained leaked Department of Homeland Security (DHS) documents showing that the feds created a secret list of journalists covering the caravan, at least one U.S.-based immigration attorney, activists, "organizers," "instigators," and others.
The list has 59 names, mainly American citizens. Ten reporters were included in the database, seven of them U.S. citizens.
[...]
For some, it meant alerts were placed on their passports. At least three photojournalists could not get into Mexico as a result, KNSD says.
On the database, each person's name includes a photo, country of citizenship, and "role," as well as information about whether an alert has been placed on their passport and whether they have been interviewed by border officials, had their visa revoked, or been arrested or deported. An unnamed DHS source tells KNSD that border agents created a dossier for each person in the database.
The Mexican government appears to be involved as well. The front page of the list has the seal of the International Liaison Unit, a government agency that coordinates intelligence efforts between the two countries.
So Mexico is paying for border security too?
Hahaha. The media loves the Nanny and Police-State and this is what that means. Unconstitutional spying on propagandists trying to undermine immigration law enforcement.
Remember the unfounded hysteria over the migrant caravans making their way toward America's border last year?
You mean the media making a big deal about illegal immigrants trying to avoid immigration rules and sneak into the USA?
"On the database, each person's name includes a photo, country of citizenship, and "role," as well as information about whether an alert has been placed on their passport and whether they have been interviewed by border officials, had their visa revoked, or been arrested or deported."
I know a lady who went to London for a year to open an office for her business. She was hiring all these people, creating jobs, etc. Her husband was retired, so he came along for the ride. They went through attorneys to make sure he had the right kind of visa, but once they got there, the Brits decided he didn't have the right kind of visa because of the way he answered some of their questions, I gather. In the end, they granted him the kind of visa he needed, and everything was okay . . . or so he thought.
Every time he goes to a foreign country, now, he always gets the third degree about why he was refused entry to the U.K. I believe all that stuff I quoted is attached to international databases about everyone anyway. Why wouldn't there be a database that tells immigration officials whether there's been an alert placed on their passports, whether they have been interviewed by border officials, had their visa revoked, or been arrested or deported?
ChemJeff may disagree, but immigration officials checking that you aren't a wanted criminal or a criminal threat is part of their job. When Nick Gillespie is talking about "open borders", he isn't talking about letting people cross the border without any consideration for whether they're convicted felons. He's talking about letting people through once they've had their IDs verified so we know they aren't convicted felons, etc. If an immigration official sees that you've been deported from another country, it's their fucking responsibility to at least ask why.
I was checked more by European border guards than I ever have returning to the USA.
There is definitely a line which becomes government abuse at the border crossings but there is nothing wrong with cursory checks of those entering a country.
Facebook pivots to privacy. Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg announced in a lengthy blog post yesterday that the social media network would shift to being a "privacy-focused communications platform":
Too late Zuckerberg. More and more people are leaving your platform forever.
Millennials lead the mass Facebook exodus: More than 15 MILLION users in the US have quit the site in the last two years over privacy concerns
+In 2017, 67 per cent of the total US population over the age of 12 used Facebook
+This has dropped to 62 per cent and 61 per cent in 2018 and 2019, respectively
+The drop-off has been more pronounced in people aged between 12 and 34
+Sister app Instagram has seen a boost in users who have dropped Facebook
I await with glee the complete destruction of the democrat/progressive/socialist/communist party.
True friends of freedom will rejoice !
Be glad you don't live in Russia, where refusing to honor a Stalin statue is apparently reason enough for police to tackle you:
He was trying to desecrate a Stalin statue by throwing something at it. Big difference.
While not a big fan of Stalin, try throwing something at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Washington D.C.
You will likely get your head bashed in by the soldier guarding the Tomb but most veterans nearby will have something top say too- with their fists.
You can't desecrate something that isn't sacred and the tomb of one of the most evil and murderous men the world has ever known is not sacred. The fact that people are showing false honor to it to survive an oppressive political climate doesn't make it sacred.
Clearly some people want to worship a mass murderer.
In the USA, we have property rights, where even the bust of Stalin is protected from vandalism.
Speaking of getting with the times, the Utah legislature passed a bill Tuesday that legalizes fornication. Amazingly, sex outside of marriage is still a misdemeanor offense in that state.
Some Americans commit 10 misdemeanors a day!
Fornication implies a partner.
On a sadder note, longtime Jeopardy! host Alex Trebek announced yesterday that he's been diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer, though he plans to "beat" it. Our thoughts are with the legendary game show host.
What is Pancreatic Cancer has a 97% mortality rate in 5 years at Stage IV?
Georgia House panel approves anti-abortion 'heartbeat' bill
Women in Georgia can currently seek an abortion up to 20 weeks of a pregnancy. A heartbeat is generally detectable by medical professionals at around 6 weeks.
I guess Georgia will be in the news a bit for awhile.
Heartbeats are detectable in oysters, it's a classic Dev Bio experiment. Is every oyster sacred, now?
Because no other distinctions are involved.
Man, that's genius.
Democrats' Net Neutrality Bill Would Force Ajit Pai to Actually Do His Job
1) Ajit Pai is doing his job and the internet has not hummed along like this in years
2) Gizmodo has really become the Lefty rag
3) These media outlets act like the Democrats have any power in Congress
They think his job is to effectively socialize the internet. Cuz they're commies.
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Yes, but this country is facing an existential threat by letting all those thousands of migrants get in here to take Er Jebz and marry our womenfolk! Awful!
Yes, but this country is facing an existential threat by letting all those thousands of migrants get in here to take Er Jebz and marry our womenfolk! Awful!
Good to see that when it comes to American natives engaged wrongthink, you and ICE are on the same side. Says a lot about your principles. Not a lot that we didn't already know, but a lot that could bear repeating for people who don't know you.
The first question people are asking is whether Zuckerberg means what he says, and there are plenty of doubters," writes The Verge's Casey Newton.
Zuckerbeg responded, "I can't be held responsible, 'cause she was touching her face."
>>>so that no one, not even Facebook itself, can see what users are saying
lying liars and the lies they tell.
Was there ever any coverage on who organized and paid for the 'caravans'?
My guess: it was a joint Soros/Koch operation.
Do you ever get tired of being a dumb ass? Even just a little bit?
http://bigleaguepolitics.com/c.....-employer/
Don't forget about the Koch brothers.
The Koch brothers have nothing to do with it. The organization that organized the caravan is funded by George Soros. Read the link.
Again, you show that no you never do get tired of being a dumb ass.
The organization that organized the caravan is funded by George Soros
Straight out of the Alinsky playbook.
You just emote bullshit don't you? You really have more of an animal intelligence than anything that could fairly be called human.
THX, John.
I knew it wasn't Pedro and Juan who had a beer one afternoon, and decided to get several thousands of their closest friends to go on a hike.
But it was so helpful to Trump I had doubts a lefty was stupid enough to do so; can't discount lefty intelligence enough...
Sevo, Lefties thought they had won the war. Some rallied after Trump and still were delusional about what tactics will work. There were wrong there too.
The run-up to Election 2020 shows us that Lefties are putting most of their eggs in the Socialism basket. They actually think America overall will accept their giant Socialist baskets of bullshit.
Nothing to see there.
Now when a dead reporter shows up near the border butchered by the cartels, someone will say "Why wasn't the government tracking them for their safety?"
You can never win with ideologues.
You can never win with ideologues.
The unequivocal nature of it is dumb. I certainly agree that we shouldn't be performing extrajudicial killings of Americans abroad, but the idea that the 1A shields people from being spied upon outside our borders? People who are specifically categorized as organizing opposition hostile and even violent to the US Homeland? I don't think they can fathom the breadth of the stupidity of their actions. Brutal drug lords are the reason lots of immigrants flee their homeland. An employee of a cartel finds his way to the staff of the NYT and Voila! he's free to seek out the cartel's enemies domestically and transfer the information, in person, abroad without even so much as a surveillance team potentially encroaching on his right to speak freely on either side of the US border.
"This is an outrageous violation of the First Amendment," American Civil Liberties Union staff attorney Esha Bhandari says in a statement. "The government cannot use the pretext of the border to target activists critical of its policies, lawyers providing legal representation, or journalists simply doing their jobs."
I can't tell if they're being aloof or genuinely and stupidly oblivious when they say that collusion is not a crime and that merely working with foreign agents isn't grounds for even the most noninvasive of investigations. It's almost like they don't even realize that they're saying a global war on terror is cool as long as it doesn't target journalists. I'd bet most don't know Nakoula Basseley Nakoula by name and a good portion, upon clarification, think he should be jailed or worse for his 'crime'.
If the hysteria over the caravan is unfounded then so is the hysteria the left has over guns.
To be fair, the Constitution provides enumerated powers to regulate migrants, naturalization, and common defense.
The Constitution also specifically protects the people's right to keep and bear Arms.
This completely thwarts Lefty plans, hence their hysteria.
Would this database have included pro-wall, Trump-supporting journalists who used the junket as an opportunity to hype up the caravan?
No. As any FBI agent will tell you, the SPLC and ADL are in charge of those databases.
"Unfounded"
When it comes to guns control liberals use the logic of "it's worth it if it even saves one life".
So here is what is now going to happen: either they stop using that logic or they apply it to the wall. There is no 3rd option.
Make no mistake I'm not saying I necessarily want a wall, but if they're wanna use the "if it even saves one life" logic then hell..we're gonna apply it all across the board.
Would be nice to be able to edit posts. They're should be "they"
Would be nice to be able to edit posts.
It has been quite a while since someone complained about the lack of an edit button. Quite refreshing!
*shrugs* Maybe libertarians don't ever need to edit, but Chest Rockwell does.
two-dot ellipsis is worse than the they're/they heh
Two dots... No space
Trump cancels Obama policy of reporting drone strike deaths
Obama's first report in 2016 said the U.S. launched 473 strikes from Jan. 20, 2009, until Dec. 31, 2015, killing 2,372 to 2,581 combatants and 64 to 116 noncombatants.
Trump's order does not affect a separate law that Congress passed last year requiring the Department of Defense to provide Congress with a report of civilian casualties resulting from military operations. But that does not apply to many areas where CIA drone strikes take place.
[...]
Under Trump, CIA drone strikes have not reached the level they did in the early Obama years, when the agency was pummeling targets in Pakistan on a weekly basis.
But in 2017, there were a record 156 counterterrorism strikes in Yemen and Somalia, according to Long War Journal, a website that tracks the attacks through credible U.S. and foreign media reports.
Last year, that number fell to 82, the website reported.
Didn't the Obama administration also change the definition of who could be considered a "combatant"?
Yes - any Male between the ages of 16-60 gathered together in a group.
Something like that.
Thus you bomb the shit out of a soccer game and claim it's victory taking out a terrorist training camp
Be glad you don't live in Russia, where refusing to honor a Stalin statue is apparently reason enough for police to tackle you:
So... not a Bernie Sanders supporter.
Meanwhile, in Washington state, a federal court says boys can compete on their public high schools' dance teams. Hurray for equality!
The story is about Minnesota.
Oh snap!!!
Remember the unfounded hysteria over the migrant caravans making their way toward America's border last year?
Uh, no. I do remember the justified concern about them.
And exactly what would happen if people didn't provide the referenced "access to their cell phones".
Well, unless you can get them all together and can use a bomb. Hmmm, sayyyy, are there are any places you can think of where central planners are collected together?