Race

We Need a Different, Better Conversation on Race and Public Policy

Blacks and whites are talking past each other instead of connecting. Sadly, there's no reason to think anything will change soon.

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In a series of recent highly publicized and criticized appearances, former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani has criticized Black Lives Matter (BLM) for not caring about murders of African Americans unless they are committed by police. Over the weekend on Fox News' Fox & Friends and CBS's Face the Nation, he discussed how the vast majority of homicides of blacks are committed by criminals of the same race and that his policing changes in New York saved "more black lives" than BLM ever has.

Here's Giuliani appearing this morning on Fox News, reiterating the same basic points:

As a matter of fact, Giuliani is correct that about 90 percent of blacks are murdered by other blacks. However, the similar figure for white-on-white murders is 83 percent, reflecting the reality that most murders are committed by people who know each other. So "America's mayor" is kind of missing the point when he badgers "blacks" for not focusing more on black-on-black murders. The same point can be made about white-on-white murders.

When it comes to people killed by the police in 2016, males are tremendously overrepresented (95 percent of deaths are of men), and so are blacks and people with signs of mental illness. In fact, the latter two groups account for about 25 percent of deaths despite comprising far-smaller percentages of the population. Yet Giuliani is correct that killings in largely black areas of Chicago, which have surged 62 percent this year so far and are on pace to set recent record totals, seem to elicit less media attention and certainly less outrage than less-numerous shootings by police.

Pew Research Center

There are many reasons for this, of course, including some ideological blindspots by journalists are more comfortable with all-police-are-racist narratives than calling attention to out-of-control violence in a city headed up by Barack Obama's former chief of staff. But it's also true that police are rightly held to higher standards than the gang-bangers responsible for the overwhelming majority of murders in cities such as Chicago. Cops are trained to serve and protect; as civil servants, we expect more from them than we do regular citizens (whether good or bad, this is also one of the reasons why killing a policeman often receives an enhanced punishment).

And figures such as Giuliani, who was mayor of New York during several high-profile killings and brutalizations of blacks by police, are often extremely divisive in the way they discuss and approach issues of crime, race, and policing. Yes, he presided over a major reducution in murder and violent-crime rates that made life better for black New Yorkers, as well as all other residents. But to assert again and again that "I saved more black lives than Black Lives Matter" is unlikely to persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you. There are bright spots, for sure, such as Rand Paul's attempts to reach out to black audiences from the Republican side of the aisle, new interest in how employment-licensing and minimum-wage laws disproportionately hurt African Americans, and a growing coalition of conservatives, liberals, and libertarians interested in sentencing reform.

At least this much is beyond question: Blacks and whites have massively different views regarding whether the United States is color-blind. As Pew Research noted recently, 43 percent of blacks not only don't think we've achieved parity yet, but that we never will. As the graphic to the right shows, almost 40 percent of whites already think we've achieved equal rights. When it comes to dealing with the police, fully 50 percent of whites think black are treated unfairly, while 84 percent of blacks say they are likely to be treated unequally. Throughout a series of situations—such as applying for a mortgage or being treated fairly in the workplace—there are similar gaps in perceptions of fairness.

This is not the sort of difference of opinion that will be resolved easily or with simple reference to whatever "facts" either side can marshal to support its point of view. Indeed, that same Pew survey found that blacks thought Barack Obama had helped racial progress while whites thought he had stymied it.

It is unlikely that conversations about race relations will improve any time soon. As Gallup has noted, confidence in major institutions governing politics, culture, commerce, media, and other aspects of our lives are at or near-historical lows. Over the past 25 years, recurring failures, deceptions, and outright lies by those in power have taken a toll on American attitudes toward government actors at all levels. But the same can be said for economic actors, law enforcement, and the trustworthiness of elites of all stripes. We don't just need a different conversation about race—one that simultaneously acknowledges real progress, personal responsibility on all sides, and systemic effects of public policies—but one that is conducted in an atmosphere of mutual trust and good faith. Those things are in particularly short supply now and very little about the current political climate gives reason for optimism.

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  1. I think the conversation about race should be between Rudy Giuliani and Shaun King, and that’s it. Those two get it.

    1. Two men enter, one man leaves.

    2. Two white guys talking about race, so typical.

      1. Fuck off.

        1. Well that one bombed.

        2. Shaun King is as much “black” as Rachael Dolezal.

          Sorry. /not sorry

    3. Why would you want a “race” conversation between two white people?

  2. When you force people to associate who normally wouldn’t, shit like this is pretty much guaranteed.

    1. Are you suggesting we segregate Rudy Giuliani from the rest of the populace?

      1. It couldn’t hurt.

        1. Yeah, let’s get rid of the guy who single-handedly kept New York safe after 9/11. How soon we forget.

  3. So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders.

    Is he missing the point if he was talking to BLM and not blacks in general? I don’t think it’s accurate to equate the two.

    1. Like I am gonna believe this was really Guliani and not some homeless doppelganger dressed up in a suit for ratings. The real Guliani would have explained how he is best suited to understand this issue because he lived through 9/11.

    2. Bingo.

  4. In other statistics, over 90% of jokes are murdered by Carlos Mencia.

    1. *rim job, uh, SHOT*

    2. Only because Margaret Cho just tortures them into submission and silence.

  5. We don’t just need a different conversation about race?one that simultaneously acknowledges real progress, personal responsibility on all sides, and systemic effects of public policies?but one that is conducted in an atmosphere of mutual trust and good faith.

    We have to *do something*. Quick. For the children of all four races.

  6. Blacks and whites are talking past each other instead of connecting. Sadly, there’s no reason to think anything will change soon.

    Speak for yourself, Nick. My black neighbors and my white self discuss this openly and calmly. In fact, my black next-door neighbor says that I should be less critical and give the cops more credit. He says that theirs is not an easy job.

    1. The funny thing is that I’ve had two separate conversations with two black men in their late twenties who are the classic demographic for police brutality and harassment and both take the stance that a.) police generally don’t stop people unless they’ve done something wrong, at some point, or are going to, and that b.) policing is a hard job and they respect people who do it, and believe that you have to give cops a break since the job is so stressful.

      1. From my anecdotal experience, all the furor is from liberal white girls, college educated blacks with ethnic studies degrees, and urban “anarchists. ” All of the average everyday black folks I’ve rubbed shoulders with seem a bit turned off by this #BLM crop. Maybe it’s because I’m only around middle and upper class blacks.

        1. But CNN is reporting hundreds upon hundreds of protestors at these things. Sometimes they even have enough people to block a road.

        2. Ah, the fabled Left-Anarchist. A close relative of the Anarcho-Communist. One of many varieties of anarchist that surprisingly is in favor of a bigger government.

      2. It’s almost as if black people aren’t a monolith that all think alike.

        1. Presumably, though, they are acting against their own interests by supporting the police. What’s the matter with Kansas Compton?

      3. My own anecdote – NOT among the likely demographic (college, professional – but single young male and mouthy) – was comparing traffic type stops and what happened. My own experience and another white guy was that we were stopped about 6-10 times in our early 20’s. Mostly legitimate stops (speeding/etc) – and once we got the ticket we went on our way. The two black guys had been stopped 30+ times – mostly legitimate but not because they were bigger violators but because they were under constant surveillance. And if they even looked crosseyed, they got the full car search and patdown.

        My conclusion – we white guys got the benefit of the doubt from cops. The black guys did not get the benefit of the doubt. They were assumed to be guilty of something and hiding something and the cops took it on themselves to figure out what. And since most cops/judges (the guys with the power in that situation) are white, it doesn’t surprise me at all that it gets viewed through a racial lens.

        Even worse when a guy like Guiliani (and most other apologists too) take on a martyr complex when making excuses and pretend that they should be deemed the white savior of blacks because they are saving blacks from other blacks

        1. That was great, JFeee. I’ve seen the same. But I’d like to clarify that only a few cops are like that, overall, but often a much higher percentage in the inner-cities. A neighbor of mine quit the police force entirely, — Cleveland’s ghetto area — because of the abuses he saw. He never said it, but his wife told me that he (a veteran) really wanted to make a career in police work, He agonized quite a bit before walking away, So I often wonder how many good cops leave for the same reason.

          1. I actually don’t think the beat cops are the real problem. They’re just the ones on the front line put into a difficult situation. It’s the older guys – who are training them (or not well), who are creating/defining the broad mission, and who are resistant as hell to any ‘change’ or ‘outsiders’ and are old enough to be defensive and overly sensitive about ‘their turf’.

            And the black guys said the suburbs were the worst – though that might have been a bit unique to their situation (there’s a bit of a class issue here as well). Where the stops and the cops talking to them had less to do with ‘crime’ and more to do with being black. One guy even said the cops there wanted to be SEEN doing their job of stopping blacks – with him by the side of the road hands on hood while locals drive by silently congratulating the cops in keeping blacks out of their burb.

            1. It only takes a few. Most of them patrol alone. No witnesses. I see it like the whistleblower problem in government. In a sense, like every workplace.

              I grew up in a suburban school system with too few blacks to scare our parents into hating them.
              When I went to college, I was a bit dismayed at what I saw. This was 1960. Even worse, our first reunion (10th), our black classmates described how unprepared they were for what they faced in college, mostly those who went to the community college. Afterward, we realized how cool it was that they could discuss it so openly. It’s not like we had hung together in the past 10 years, All we shared was a distant past. And respect.

              I believe we had not a single black teacher in the mid-size District. My father-in-law had been our high school principal. By the time I got around to asking, he could neither confirm nor deny any black teachers at the time.

    2. Speak for yourself, Nick.

      Speaking for only YOURself may be why you missed the point. You assume you neighborhood is all of America. You even admit your own neighbor had to correct your own anti-cop sentiments.

      But having matched for equal rights since the very late 50s, I know it’s equally ignorant to deny the massive progress in race relations. The racists are no longer so open about their pathology BECAUSE they are now shunned by society. Hence the denial they exist. At my first house, in the far suburbs of Cleveland, a new neighbor had been a police officer in the very heart of Cleveland’s ghetto. He left the police force in disgust at what he’d seen. Then, as his wife described, he had to leave the culture he’d been raised in, the white inner city. She felt he may be over-sensitive, but also realized she’d not walked in his shoes.

      Despite bullshit to the contrary, most BLM protests are quite peaceful. It had been a peaceful protest in Dallas, with photos of protesters and police just chatting. But that doesn’t fit the media narrative Nick described, so the racists equate a lone gunman, perhaps two, with the BLM who had been so peaceful, which is why Nick is so spot on.

      I blame those assholes, sitting on a couch at Fox News (mostly a single show). Obama has a few blind spots, but they are the types inciting the violence.

  7. Of course nothing is ever going to change; Obama and the democrats need blacks to stay on Victimhood Plantation forever, because that plantation is the endless renewable resource of their wealth and power.

    1. If Hispanics ever took voting as seriously as blacks Dems could probably soon forget about them.

    2. Obama and the democrats need blacks to stay on Victimhood Plantation forever, because that plantation is the endless renewable resource of their wealth and power.

      You’ve convinced me!
      I shall now ignore Giulani’s egregious racism to stand firmly with Truth Justice and The American Way!
      The same values which are the renewable resources of Fox News’ wealth and power.

  8. ” So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders. The same point can be made about white-on-white murders.”

    And if there were a White Lives Matter movement blocking interstate highways with traffic, that might be a salient point. But there isn’t, so it’s not.

    Racializing the very real and serious problem of police abuse does nothing but divide the popular views on the subject and make it that much harder to seriously address it. And the point is that there are a helluva lot more black Americans who are murdered by other black Americans than by the police. The problem is police abuse – focus on that. “Black Lives Matter” suggests that only the lives snuffed out by cops matter. The ones being killed day in and day out aren’t worth getting worked up about, only the Alton Sterlings or Philando Castiles.

    1. Racializing the very real and serious problem of police abuse does nothing but divide the popular views on the subject and make it that much harder to seriously address it.

      For our rulers, racial division is a feature, not a bug.

      Divide and conquer.

  9. Shorter Giuliani: Ignore the murders by police because there’s so many murders not committed by police.

    Shorter invisible finger: Fuck You, Rudy.

    1. Yeah, its the classic “but what about” diversion.

      1. Yes, it absolutely is. Doesn’t mean that the BLM crowd isn’t being awfully selective about the deaths they choose to be outraged about, though.

        1. Except that the police should be able to somewhat control murders committed by police versus controlling murders committed by non-police. The fact that murders committed by police result in nobody found “guilty” at a much higher rate than murders committed by non-police.

          At the rate the CPD is going though, the general public is closer to getting away with murder as much as a police officer is able to get away with it.

          1. Absolutely. It still makes me roll my eyes at BLM. Address police abuse for what it is, don’t try to mold it to your particular hobby horses.

            1. Oh sure, the hobby horse is part of the problem, it opens the door for the “but what about” evasion. BLM plays right into the statists hands, just like the Fight For 15 jerks.

            2. I hear ya, Chip.

              The BLMers divert from the real problem, and then the rebuttal diverts again. We somehow get from
              “too many blacks are killed by cops” to “not enough blacks are killed by cops”.

              1. It’s tribal, like everything else those days. How many Americans realize there was a peaceful BLM protest — which is WHY so many poi]lie were there. How many Americans saw all the videos and photos of police and protesters just talking together. Dallas is known as one of the very best cities at training in overall race relations, Nick caught the media narrative, but may have missed how the media feeds and excuses the racists. One must concentrate to see it’s only a minority of the rightwing media — the same ones who foment tribal divisions as cheerleaders.

              2. It’s tribal, like everything else those days. How many Americans realize there was a peaceful BLM protest — which is WHY so many poi]lie were there. How many Americans saw all the videos and photos of police and protesters just talking together. Dallas is known as one of the very best cities at training in overall race relations, Nick caught the media narrative, but may have missed how the media feeds and excuses the racists. One must concentrate to see it’s only a minority of the rightwing media — the same ones who foment tribal divisions as cheerleaders.

      2. Look, ignore the fact our poor quality control caused numerous children with cancer to die unnecessarily from their chemotherapy drugs, and that instead of fixing a known problem, we hid the evidence and covered it up. While we’re at, ignore the fact that we’re financially encouraging doctors to prescribe chemo for common childhood maladies that could be addressed with antibiotics or bed rest. Let’s be honest, you’re just some commie that hates pharmaceutical companies. 300 kids died from cancer in Chicago last month, but I don’t see you protesting cancer.

        (Of course, on the other side, there’s the guy who claims that the pharmaceutical companies are just giving people cancer in the first place to force them to get chemo, and no one would get cancer naturally, and we should burn down the factory that makes their poisonous chemotherapy drugs.)

      3. Not really a “but what about” diversion. It’s simply taking the name of their movement seriously, when BLM won’t.

        They say “black lives matter”. But they obviously don’t, to them.

        Racial resentment matters, to them. Opportunities for violence matters, to them.

        1. But you’re not a bigot. Nor do you deny reality.

          What did you think of those hundreds of BLM protesters in Dallas, and all the photos and videos of protesters and cops calmly chatting with each other … the classic American, “we’re each just doing our job” …. before the shooting began?

          And why such contempt for the First Amendment?

  10. So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders. The same point can be made about white-on-white murders.

    Did I miss the WLM protests? It was that week in Cabo wasn’t it?

    1. Did I miss the WLM protests?

      Apparently. Or in denial

      It was that week in Cabo wasn’t it?

      It was immediately before the shooting began, hundreds of peaceful protesters, shown chatting with cops like a crowd at a rock concert or baseball game. Did you miss all the photos and videos?

  11. We Need a Different, Better Conversation on Race and Public Policy
    Blacks and whites are talking past each other instead of connecting. Sadly, there’s no reason to think anything will change soon.

    Weep not, my comrades. There is a solution, and its name is socialism. It is only through being a socialist slave for The State that the little people can enjoy the true equality and egalitarianism via oppression, terror and mass murder that only socialism can bring. Yes, everyone, will have the same ration of food, the same amount of time spent in the gulag, wear the same clothing, have the same indoctrination, have the same mandatory military training and the same number in their family murdered by The State.
    However, the ruling elitist filth will exempt from such wonderful and generous blessings given by The State. They will live in daschas, drive around in limousines to and fro to the Politburo, extract enormous salaries off the back of the untermenschen and enjoy all the benefits and perks entitled to those who are busy enslaving us all.
    This is what we socialists call equality.

      1. I tried to make an indentation by pushing the tab button, buy nothing happened. So I continued to write on the next line.

    1. Uncle Jay blames even hurricanes and earthquakes on socialism!
      It’s like Pat Robertson blaming Katrina on God’s wrath over legalized abortion.
      The extreme left and extreme right are both ape-shit crazy, but see it only in their opposing tribe.
      The god news for Amereidna is how tiny they are in our culture, most even their own sides of the aisle are ashamed to associate with them.

      Not to deny that the end of humanity is imminent.
      Will it be caused by Citizens United, by marriage equality or by both?

  12. If there was a systemic drive to shield gangbangers from the repercussions of their actions, I imagine Giuliani would be front and center to protest.

    1. Um isn’t that what BLM is?

      1. How large is your Klavern?

  13. “So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders. The same point can be made about white-on-white murders.”

    No, he isn’t. The point is that a fuss is made *only* when a cop (or white person in general) kills a black person. Nobody makes any fuss when whites are killed, so at least they’re consistent there.

    1. Three homeless men have been killed in San Diego over the past week or so and it doesn’t even show up in the top five Google search suggestions. When police kill homeless whites or hispanics or anyone else (with homes for that matter) they do so in isolation, often because the victim had crazy political beliefs, or lots of guns, or was off his meds, or whatever. But when a cop kills a black person, it’s evidence of a cultural conspiracy.

      Which is of course total bullshit. Cops kill too many people for a number of reasons, including that sometimes bad people become police.

      1. Wasn’t a white 6 year old autistic child shot by a police officer last year? This stuff isn’t rare at all.

      2. Three homeless men have been killed in San Diego over the past week or so and it doesn’t even show up in the top five Google search suggestions

        Umm, This link goes to the RESULTS of a google search. 3 of the top five.
        Another conspiracy bites the dust!

    2. The point is that a fuss is made *only* when a cop (or white person in general) kills a black person

      Now shoot yourself in the face ….

      Nobody makes any fuss when whites are killed

      (lol) By whom?

  14. “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders

    This is entirely misleading.

    The point is that young blacks kill each other *way more frequently* than whites

    Are we supposed to think Nick is so dull-witted that he didn’t realize the point is about the absurdly-high homicide rates among young blacks? Or that he knew exactly what he was doing, and was purposely throwing a head-fake?

    1. (sigh)

      the link

    2. Another example of the same point (with wider age ranges and comparisons)

    3. That’s true, but Internet conservatives regularly highlight stories of interracial crime and how blacks commit more crime/murder against whites than vice versa, often highly exaggerating it (see the graphic Trump retweeted a few months back that had inaccurate stats), and ignoring the fact that most crime (especially murder) committed against white people is committed by other white people. So I think it’s a valid point to make to many on both sides of the spectrum.

      1. you are talking percentages….Dennis is talking volume.

        1. Umm, no. Look at Dennis’s link, It’s percentages, not volume, and victims not perpetrators.
          But justice is of course far more important than all the static and noise.

          1. did you even bother to go to the links? It’s volume of crime rates….not percentage of population committing them.

            or do you just not understand math and statistics?

            or both?

            1. you are talking percentages….Dennis is talking volume.

              That was your first screwup

              did you even bother to go to the links?

              (laughing)

              It’s volume of crime rates….not percentage of population committing them.

              (laughing harder) Pay attention. I’ll go slowly. On the left, we call that the scale being displayed.
              1) The first one is “rate per 100,00 (sic) population” — which is a percentage with a base other than 100. We do that when the percentages are so small. See the “17” over Hispanic? If we assume that’s per 100,000, then the percentage is (17/100,000=) 0.017%. Am I going too fast for you?

              2) For the second one. the scale says 0%, 15%, 30%, 45% and 60%.
              He called it “anther example of the same point. Do you know what “%” means?

              or do you just not understand math and statistics?

              (snicker) Do you know what “%” means? No offense, but you may also lack basic literacy. I believe even 12-year-old children know what “%” means.

              So … not a single one was the “voiume not percentages” that you asserted. Given two opportunities, you managed to screw them both up.

              Anything else I can teach you?

              1. ….not percentage of population committing them

                Did you miss me saying, it’s “victims not perpetrators?” Do you know what a victim is?

    4. The Jacket does not want to argue on ground unfavorable to his opinions, so he attempts to change subject while pretending he didn’t just change the subject.

      He’s reason’s version of Three Card Monte.

    5. I didn’t know you were called Dennis.

      -Well, you didn’t bother to ask, did you?

      1. What I object to is that you automatically treat me like an inferior …

        1. Bloody peasant!

          -You hear that? Dead giveaway there!

    6. @King of Bullshit:
      The point is that young blacks kill each other *way more frequently* than whites Are we supposed to think Nick is so dull-witted

      Not me. I assume you’re either a liar (again). Or cannot read. I choose liar since you lied about the paragraph you cited. Proof (immediately below the video)

      Giuliani is correct that about 90 percent of blacks are murdered by other blacks. However, the similar figure for white-on-white murders is 83 percent, reflecting the reality that most murders are committed by people who know each other. So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders. The same point can be made about white-on-white murders.

      You’re just as shameful as either Dennis OR Gilmore.

  15. So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders.

    No not really. This is major derpage. What Rudy means – Nick knows this btw – is that inner city blacks are murdering each other at alarming rates. A subject not often broached by any of the MSM news outlets.

    Sure there is disproportionate police violence wielded against blacks but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the mostly WOD inspired murders in places like Chicago and Detroit.

    1. Only 2,095 people have been shot in Chicago this year. Gosh.

      1. .01% of the population. Statistically insignificant.

        And it counts person-incidents, so if you were shot twice in a week you count as two person-incidents.

        1. “… if you were shot twice in a week…”

          Is that really a thing?

          Because, what sort of life do you have to live in order to get shot twice in one week? And does civil society really owe much of anything to the sorts of people living those lives?

          1. Mother Theresa may have had compassion for those sorts. But is anyone really arguing that the majority of us need to do so as well?

          2. My friends dad is a doctor. In his youth he worked ER in a not so friendly area of St. Louis. He said on several occasions while working on gun shot victims the shooter would come rolling into the hospital to try to finish them off. Do they count that as one or two shootings?

      2. Interestingly, 80% or more of shootings in Chicago are self-contained in a handful of social networks.

    2. No not really.

      Yes, really.

      If cops reacted the same way to a cop killing someone that they do to a non-cop killing someone then there would be much less cause to protest. If a cop went to prison for murder like a non-cop would then Giuliani would have a point.

    3. No not really. This is major derpage

      Derp[age because you lie, rather shamelessly, about what Nick said.

      . What Rudy means – Nick knows this btw

      (snicker) That’s why he said it, Sparky!!!

      – is that inner city blacks are murdering each other at alarming rates. A subject not often broached by any of the MSM news outlets.

      Do they lie as blatantly as you just \did?

      Here’s what Nick said, first paragraph below the video. Emphasis added for the integrity challenged.

      As a matter of fact, Giuliani is correct that about 90 percent of blacks are murdered by other blacks. However, the similar figure for white-on-white murders is 83 percent, reflecting the reality that most murders are committed by people who know each other. So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders. The same point can be made about white-on-white murders.

      Here’s what bulshitter cited

      So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murder What else from a total thug who defends feeding humans into woodchippers — head first or feet first?

  16. When it comes to people killed by the police in 2016, males are tremendously overrepresented (95 percent of deaths are of men), and so are blacks and people with signs of mental illness.

    Like it or not, males and blacks also commit a disproportionate amount of both overall crime and violent crime. When you control for that, whites are actually proportionally (as well as numerically) more likely to be shot by police than blacks.

    1. (laughing) Link, please.
      (I’ll ignore the massive lack of logic. Like equating proportionately with numerically!!!!)

  17. It is unlikely that conversations about race relations will improve any time soon.

    Probably not because of many reasons few people want to talk about, like the fact the police have been militarized, blacks are many times more likely to resist arrest than whites, BLM is a leftist group so violence is no big deal for them, and this is an election year where playing the race card is good for the Democrats.

    1. You forgot to lie about all those fucking fags.

  18. So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders.

    Not when BLM activists are attempting to claim the moral high ground of purportedly caring about actual black lives.

    What percentage of black deaths are caused by criminals vs. those caused by the police? We can be generous here and include every one of those – the entire gamut from entirely justified to entirely unjustified – because that still will not significantly alter the fact that the vast majority of black killings are not caused by the police.

    So he’s not missing the point, he is simply making the point that you are attempting to avoid.

    1. I suppose the “but what about” all those blacks not killed by cops is just as valid a rebuttal to “too many blacks are killed by cops” as the “but what about” all those fetuses who miscarry is a valid rebuttal to “abortion is murder”, right?

      1. That analogy might make sense if someone was rebutting “too many blacks are killed by cops” with “but what about all those blacks who die from natural causes”.

      2. Only to retards who think abortion is murder, and lie about the rebuttal … to hide their contempt for the founding principle of equal, unalienable and/or God-given rights.

        Some even deny the Will of God … in the name of God!

    2. So he’s not missing the point, he is simply making the point that you are attempting to avoid.

      You’re the third one on this page (so far) to lie so shamelessly about what Nick said. Have you no shame at all? Or are you just feeding the other goobers?

  19. There’s a point about black-on-black murders I think everyone is missing? are they being investigated as thoroughly as murders of non-blacks?

    1. I’m guessing if there is a bias, it probably has to do with the length of the victim’s rap sheet (ie, less racism and more “got what was coming to him”-ism)

    2. There’s a point about black-on-black murders I think everyone is missing? are they being investigated as thoroughly as murders of non-blacks?

      Well, according to progressives, the high incarceration rate of blacks is a result of investigating black criminals too much and going easy on whites. So, you take your pick which kind of racism you want to accuse the legal system of, but make up your mind.

      In reality, there is little evidence that different racial are disproportionately prosecuted or incarcerated relative to the crimes they commit.

      1. In reality, there is little evidence that different racial are disproportionately prosecuted or incarcerated relative to the crimes they commit.

        If there’s no investigation then no crime is tallied. Statistics are SO confusing.

        In my winning school board race in a far out suburb, one of my opponents ran an anti-drug department for the county, so the drug war came up in debates. Once. I answered near the end, following lots of anti-drug bluster. I blustered too, and suggested we save our own kids first. Send the poice to stop the open drug dealing after school, every day in our junior high parking lot. There was a long silence The issue never came up again. Not even when I was attacked as a libertarian.

        It can be hard to see reality, wearing one’s own blinders.

    3. “We know you don’t care about investigating; also, we are not going to help your investigation at all” could summarize the regular response.

      In such an environment, it’s no wonder motivation to give a damn falls.

  20. ” not focusing more on black-on-black murders”

    I think the obvious criticism if that most blacks including Obama don’t focus AT ALL on these murders unless the black is a policeman maybe.

    If Gillespie really wants serious talk on race relations, he will skip the cheap shots.

    1. If Gillespie really wants serious talk on race relations, he will skip the cheap shots:.

      Why did you lie about what he said … to pursue your false narrative?

  21. “and libertarians interested in sentencing reform.”

    Sentencing reform? Why not, as long as prisons are running and open for business.

    1. Sentencing reform? Why not, as long as prisons are running and open for business.

      You progressives are always defending high taxes and big government spending. California was forced to release thousands of inmates because of overcrowding in those same prisons.

      In 2011, Governor Edmund G. Brown Jr. signed Assembly Bill (AB) 109 and AB 117, historic legislation that has helped California to close the revolving door of low-level inmates cycling in and out of state prisons. It is the cornerstone of California’s solution for reducing the number of inmates in the state’s 33 prisons to 37.5 percent of design capacity by June 27, 2013, as ordered by the Three-Judge Court and affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court. All provisions of AB 109 and AB 117 are prospective and implementation of the 2011 Realignment Legislation began October 1, 2011.
      http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/realignment/

      To ONLY 137.5% of capacity!!!!

  22. As a matter of fact, Giuliani is correct that about 90 percent of blacks are murdered by other blacks. However, the similar figure for white-on-white murders is 83 percent, reflecting the reality that most murders are committed by people who know each other.”

    Except that the white population is a lot closer to 83% while the black population of the US is nowhere close to 90%.

    1. Sorry if the above is confusing, i fail at block quoting.

      1. You fail even worse at elementary math. Or is it statistics?

        90% of blacks MEANS … 90% of blacks. Whether there are 30 millon of them or merely 30.

        For every 100 whites murdered, 83% are killed by whites.
        For every 100 blacks, 83 are killed by blacks.
        Confirming what Nick said

        I’ve only seen one study based on income levels, which were roughly the same in all demographics.
        If so, then income level is more determinant than race or anything else, which even makes more sense!
        This confuses racists who think the only difference between the suburbs and inner cities is race.

  23. We need to have a conversation about having a conversation about race. We need to talk about talking about race. Nick we need a conversation about freedom of association and property rights. If we can’t have that in a libertarian publication then where can we have it?

    1. If we can’t have that in a libertarian publication then where can we have it?

      Do youy actually read this site? You win the trophy for the wackiest excuse for racism on the page. Everything can’t be restricted to your two favorite issues. Libertarianism MUCH broader than that. And libertarians are far more engaged in all of our culture.

      Also, why would you deny coverage of topical issues to a libertarian publication? There are plenty of websites who deal only in theory. Try there..

      1. I read this site and I am questioning the purpose of him saying we need an honest dialogue on race. What does Nick believe that dialogue is supposed to look like? Why doesn’t nick just have the dialogue himself? If libertarianism doesn’t mean respect for property rights then it doesn’t mean anything no matter how involved they are in the culture.

        1. If libertarianism doesn’t mean respect for property rights then it doesn’t mean anything no matter how involved they are in the culture.

          One more time … that does not mean it’s the ONLY thing to write about.

          then it doesn’t mean anything no matter how involved they are in the culture.

          Sailed over your head, did it?

      2. I wasn’t denying coverage to topical issues I was making them relevant from a libertarian perspective. I am really shocked that you called me racist by the way.

        1. I wasn’t denying coverage to topical issues

          You were, and quite blatantly. Nick should have NOT discuss ace, you said, unless it dealt with property rights and/or freedom of association

          I was making them relevant from a libertarian perspective.

          Now it’s actually shameful. How dare you say that the abuse of government’s policing powers is NOT “relevant” to a libertarian perspective? Hoe dare you STILL deny that libertarian values are far broader than property rights?

          The gas chambers at Dachau were okay with you, as long as the Jewish victims were not denied their property rights?

          I am really shocked that you called me racist by the way

          Good point. I sincerely apologize. Technically,,only your comment is racist And I’m still stunned by how little you know about “the libertarian perspective.” And that somehow believe you’d defend property rights and freedom of associayipon as the only relevant values. Our enemies say things like that.

          1. Black men are 27 times more likely to attack whites than vice versa. There I discussed race. What dialogue on race does Nick Gillespie think there should be? All we ever talk about is race. What percentage of blm student activists are capable of doing calculus? Enough with the virtue signalling.

            1. What dialogue on race does Nick Gillespie think there should be?

              ONE MOIRE TIME: who are you to deny topics here … with such an ignorant reason?

              All we ever talk about is race.

              1) Admitting you are guilty as charged, that you FALSELY claimed you wee NOT opposed to the issue!

              2) Look at the titles in the upper right corner of the page. Then wipe the egg off your face.

              Now self-destruct ….

              What percentage of blm student activists are capable of doing calculus?

              I SMOKED HIM OUT!!!! (Confetti falls from the ceiling)

              Back to the point you’re running away from,
              1) Why do you claim Reason opposes property rights?
              2) Why do you say every story should be about property rights or this is not a libertarian website?
              3) Why are you so totally clueless on libertarian principles?

              Why are you pretending to be a libertarian? Did you come here solely to troll racist epithets,since you’ve now revealed your actual motives?

              1. I never claimed that reason doesn’t respect property rights – I was just saying that Nick needs to address the lack of respect for property rights that civil rights leaders have before claiming there has been racial progress. Libertarianism is meaningless without respect for property so dialogue is not libertarian dialogue without this condideration.

                1. I never claimed that reason doesn’t respect property rights –

                  Liar

                  I was just saying

                  Liar. THIS is what you said

                  We need to have a conversation about having a conversation about race. We need to talk about talking about race. Nick we need a conversation about freedom of association and property rights. If we can’t have that in a libertarian publication then where can we have it?

                  Now the lie.

                  – I was just saying that Nick needs to address the lack of respect for property rights that civil rights leaders have before claiming there has been racial progress. Libertarianism is meaningless without respect for property so dialogue is not libertarian dialogue without this condideration.

                  One sick fuck. Where did you say that? Prove it.

                  What percentage of blm student activists are capable of doing calculus?

                  Racists have no shame.

                  All we ever talk about is race.

                  Liar. At articles listed at the top right, what percentage are about race???

                  1) Why should every story be about property rights or this is not a libertarian website?
                  2) Why are you totally clueless of libertarian principles?
                  3) Why do you pretend to be a libertarian? Did you come here solely to spew your racist hatred?

                  1. Everything is racist if you want it to be. If Nick has any legitimacy as a libertarian social thinker he should address the lack of respect that civil rights leaders show for property rights and their so-called progress.

                    1. Everything is racist if you want it to be.

                      LAME.

                      If Nick has any legitimacy as a libertarian social thinker he should address the lack of respect that civil rights leaders show for property rights and their so-called progress

                      Off topic here.

                      What percentage of blm student activists are capable of doing calculus?

                      Racists have no shame.

                      All we ever talk about is race.

                      Liar. At articles listed at the top right, what percentage are about race???

                      1) Why should every story be about property rights or this is not a libertarian website?
                      2) Why are you totally clueless of libertarian principles?
                      3) Why do you pretend to be a libertarian? Did you come here solely to spew your racist hatred?

                      Now the lie.

                      – I was just saying that Nick needs to address the lack of respect for property rights that civil rights leaders have before claiming there has been racial progress. Libertarianism is meaningless without respect for property so dialogue is not libertarian dialogue without this consideration.

                      Liar. Where did you say that? Prove it

                      The gas chambers at Dachau were okay with you, as long as the Jewish victims were not denied their property rights? (shudder)

                    2. I don’t see gas chambers anywhere. I don’t see racist cops. I’m sorry. We are things differently.

                    3. I don’t see gas chambers anywhere

                      Read it again, Sluggo.

              2. I never claimed that reason doesn’t respect property rights – I was just saying that Nick needs to address the lack of respect for property rights that civil rights leaders have before claiming there has been racial progress. Libertarianism is meaningless without respect for property so dialogue is not libertarian dialogue without this condideration.

            2. Black men are 27 times more likely to attack whites than vice versa. There I discussed race.

              How large is your Klavern?

  24. It is unlikely that conversations about race relations will improve any time soon.

    They will never “improve” because having conversations about race relations is bullshit.

    People are individuals, not members of arbitrary groups defined by skin color.

    1. People are not individuals because far too many have a deep-seated need for tribalism. Few have the personal strength of character to be individuals and only feel more secure embracing a tribe of people they can hide amongst. Skin color is the best thing hide behind and dressing in the same manner adds additional camouflage.

      It’s always a wonderful exercise in psychology to look at long-time military vets, when the ‘veteran’ tribe completely replacing any other racial or regional tribalism.

    2. They will never “improve” because having conversations about race relations is bullshit.

      Umm, why?

      People are individuals, not members of arbitrary groups defined by skin color.

      A convenient excuse to justify racists … simply deny they exist. Problem solved!!

      Why …. we could even eliminate poverty. “There are no poor people.!
      Even ….. (gasp) …. MURDER. “There are no murderers!”
      So simple. Thanks!!!

      1. Um, even by your standards this is incoherent. Try reading comments after taking a midol or two.

        1. Do you have anything adult to contribute.
          Or just aggression.

        2. Do you have anything adult to contribute.
          Or just aggression.

    3. Why, that’s the most racist thing anyone’s ever said!

      1. Three of your comments here are far more hateful. I assume you saw the title and figured you wanted to troll some bigotry. Your ilk was outed several decades ago.

        Mass movements do not need a god, but they do need a devil. Hatred unifies the True Believers.”
        -Eric Hoffer, “The True Believers” (1951)

        Throughout human history, the worst abuses have been committed by those who believe they are defending some “greater good” — the Collective, the State, the Master Race, the Party or a God. Zealots and fanatics. The militant self-righteous.

  25. Seems to me that Giuliani, BLM, and even Nick are missing the point that whenever anyone, regardless of race, murders anyone else, they end up in a world of trouble. Unless, of course, they wear a badge, in which case their union rep makes sure they’re “punished” with some paid vacation and local tax payers foot the bill for any court fees or legal judgements.

    Not even a mafia don enjoys that level of protection from any repercussions. It seems that, these days, any would-be violent criminal with an ounce of sense would be attracted to a career in law enforcement.

  26. Giuliani speaks to a core issue here. An important statistic he, and the author, leaves out is that homicide represents 40% of all young black male deaths. For comparison homicide represents only 3.8% of young white male deaths. Blacks are being killed at an alarmingly higher rate than others and its their peers who are killing them. If you truly care about black lives, you should care about this issue and focus on ways to alleviate crime, disenfranchisement, poverty, education gap, ending the drug war, etc…

    1. Goorgi, ever so brilliant, insits … INSISTS … that police are no more responsible than the very worst of ghetto thugs.
      Is Goorgi shilling for Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson?

    2. So blacks have children they can’t afford to feed and then shoot each other and it’s whites fault. What was the argument against slavery again?

      1. So blacks have children they can’t afford to feed and then shoot each other and it’s whites fault.

        You must have posted that in the wrong place. It has nothing at all to do with anything in this short thread.

        What was the argument against slavery again?Based in your prior comment that libertarianism consists of only property rights, can we assume you’d defend slaveowners as property owners, Should they have been compensated when an abusive government violated their property rights with emancipation? .

        1. If you don’t expect people to pay for their own children even in theory then I don’t understand what the purpose of abolishing slavery was.

          1. If you don’t expect people to pay for their own children even in theory then I don’t understand what the purpose of abolishing slavery was.

            You admit such astonishing ignorance in public?
            Now that I’ve flushed you out, you’re actually proud of your racial bigotry.

            Mass movements do not need a god, but they do need a devil. Hatred unifies the True Believers.”
            -Eric Hoffer, “The True Believers” (1951)

            Throughout human history, the worst abuses have been committed by those who believe they are defending some “greater good” — the Collective, the State, the Master Race, the Party or a God. Zealots and fanatics. The militant self-righteous.

        2. If you don’t expect people to pay for their own children even in theory then I don’t understand what the purpose of abolishing slavery was.

          1. We like to call it equal rights. Your kind hates that.

            1. My kind hates equal rights without equal responsibilites. Large numbers of black women trust the government to help them raise their children rather than the men they sleep with but not all. I am pointing this out for the good of all races.

              1. Large numbers of black women trust the government to help them raise their children rather than the men they sleep with but not all. I am pointing this out for the good of all races.

                Is that why the psychopath would replace slavery for ALL blacks?

                If you don’t expect people to pay for their own children even in theory then I don’t understand what the purpose of abolishing slavery was.

                You admit such astonishing ignorance in public?
                Now that I’ve flushed you out, you’re actually proud of your racial bigotry.

                What percentage of blm student activists are capable of doing calculus?

                Racists with your extreme psychopathy have no shame.

  27. BS, Nick. Whites and blacks aren’t talking past each other. The issue is that black culture has been fed a steady stream of victimism from race pandering hacks. The POTUS on down use this to secure the black voting block, to the utter detriment of black culture, prosperity, and happiness.

    Don’t believe me? Have a conversation with the large number of first generation black immigrants who weren’t raised on the toxic and self-destructive African-American culture.
    Or alternatively, talk to some white poor and see how the police deal with them. Young white guy with stained wife-beater and young black guy with pants down to his thighs will receive identical responses from cops.

  28. Or alternatively, talk to some white poor and see how the police deal with them. Young white guy with stained wife-beater and young black guy with pants down to his thighs will receive identical responses from cops.

    You just shot yourself in the ass. Maybe. Who knows?
    I know low pants is not a crime. But what in hell is a “young white guy with a stained wife-beater?”
    You SEEM to be saying that cops treat low pants (on black) the same as physical abuse (by whites).
    And you’re fine with that? How large is your Klavern?

    1. A “wife-beater” is slang for a white cotton sleeveless undershirt. It’s one of those clothing items that self-identifies someone in a less than favorable social class.
      A young white male in a stained wife-beater makes most people first think “white trash up to no good”
      A young black male in pants down around his thighs makes most people think “black thug up to no good”

      Cops, like everyone else in society, respond to profiling clues that slant early reactions. Ideally we would like to think it doesn’t matter, but cops are human and external cues impact their reactions. A middle aged man in business attire will almost certainly receive more favorable initial treatment from a LEO than a young male in stereotypical “trouble maker” attire.
      The argument from black America is their skin color is a negative visual cue to LEOs. It is far more complex than that, but the race-baiters prefer to focus on that alone. White America in general thinks it is far overblown.
      It’s probably someone in the middle….but it isn’t just whites that have a communication problem. blacks need to culturally ‘grow up’ and stop embracing the victimhood being shoveled down their throats by hacks like our POTUS.

      1. A “wife-beater” is slang for a white cotton sleeveless undershirt. It’s one of those clothing items that self-identifies someone in a less than favorable social class.

        That’s even worse. I googled the term, checked the ads and prices, and can assure you that anyone making that judgment about the shirts is just as bigoted as Donald Trump and David Duke. Perhaps far more. This link shows the RESULTS of a google search. I doubt many low-income whites. shop at Macy’s and Jockey.com. I see that women also buy them. And none of the definitions agree with yours.

        These days, even very low-income kids wear $100 Nikes, but how many $100 Nike wearers are assumed to be ghetto residents?

        blacks need to culturally ‘grow up’ and stop embracing the victimhood being shoveled down their throats by hacks like our POTUS.

        True for some. Just as many whites could culturally ‘grow up’ because their tribal bigotry suffers denial just as severely.

        1. There’s a world of difference between a hot chick in a nice bleached white tanktop and a scruffy 20-something male in a dirty white wifebeater. If you think your google search gives you a better world view, then there really isn’t a cure for that level of idiocy.

          Simple thought problem. You, alone, in a quiet area outside of public view….and assuming you aren’t a world class martial artist.
          Is your psychological response different if you are approached by 4 young men in reasonably clean cut attire versus being approached by a group of young men dressed poorly in stereotypical ‘thug’ attire. Easy to imagine. If you are claiming that you would not be more psychologically primed for fight/flight for the latter situation, the you are either being intentionally obtuse or are just full of shit.

          This is called profiling and every efffin human on the plant does it…except you apparently

          1. There’s a world of difference between a hot chick in a nice bleached white tanktop and a scruffy 20-something male in a dirty white wifebeater.

            O?kay…

            If you think your google search gives you a better world view, then there really isn’t a cure for that level of idiocy.

            Your thuggery vs hard evidence? (lol)

            Simple thought problem.

            You forgot your point.

            Is your psychological response different if you are approached by 4 young men in reasonably clean cut attire versus being approached by a group of young men dressed poorly in stereotypical ‘thug’ attire.

            (yawn) Has nothing to do with your point either..

            … the you are either being intentionally obtuse or are just full of shit.

            Umm, that has nothing to do with your point either. Can you act like an adult?

            Or alternatively, talk to some white poor and see how the police deal with them. Young white guy with stained wife-beater and young black guy with pants down to his thighs will receive identical responses from cops.

            So … you’re having a shit fit because
            a) Neither does anything wrong
            b) They are treated the same. OMG.

            This is called profiling and every efffin human on the plant does it…except you apparently

            (laughing)

            (boldface in defense of aggression. And ridicule)

  29. Yes 83% of white people killed are killed by other whites but they are not out there blaming the cops for those murders. BLM is blaming all cops and the system in general for all black deaths. Its their way of trying to have different rules for them and they want more stuff from the government.

    1. That’s bullshit. And pathetic. Hysteria mongering. You’re the other side of the same counterfeit coin.
      Do you know why so many cops were there at all? Did you see videos and photos showing hundreds of BLM peaceful protesters in Dallas, chatting and mixing with police officers …like spectators od a baseball game? … the classic American. “we each have our own jobs to do” … before the shooting began?

      Or have you been manipulated by those who shamelessly exploit the death of five police officers for political (and racist) gain?

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  31. Yknow who else needed a different, better conversation on race and public policy? (Hint – it was Hitler)

    1. You compare Hitler with the American public?
      Yiu equate any of this with the (second) Jewish Holocaust?

  32. Blacks in this country tend to internalize and privilege their pain. More importantly, they undercut their legitimate grievances with racialist sentiments and often lash out at people who should be by their sides. BLM crashed memorial events set up for Orlando shooting victims because they felt upstaged. The LA riots is self explanatory. They won’t make any friends or progress by doing this. BLM is synonymous with “riot” for a lot of older Koreans who still feel they were used as punching bags for blacks angry at white men’s sins.

    To be perfectly blunt, most whites and even some immigrants are probably tired of them beating their chest over Jim Crow or whatnot. Yes, they were once used as chattel slaves, which happened to almost no one else. But America is less than 400 years old. Many groups of people were systematically targeted since the days of the bible. Millions of non whites escape their homeland and find success here.

    Why is BLM so offended by “All lives matter”? Why aren’t they affected by the fact many Asians and Latinos thrive here? It’s plain to see that blacks are often under attack by the police and the government. But I also see a group of people dominated by a sense of inferiority complex, victimhood mentality, and a tendency to lash out violently at people who they perceive to be “racist”. The fringe of that group ALIENATES people. For any meaningful dialogue to emerge, blacks in this country should engage in some serious introspection.

    1. How can you live with such raging hatred?
      And why spew it on a libertarian website?

      \t’s plain to see that blacks are often under attack by the police and the government. But I also see a group of people dominated by a sense of inferiority complex, victimhood mentality

      Victims suffering victimhood.???? Damn uppity negroess

      , and a tendency to lash out violently

      So if tens of millions of Americans see Alton Strerling pinned to the ground and shot to death ….objecting is an inferiority complex! … but only if you’re black!

      I just hired some goons to track you down and kick the shit out of you, Engage in some serious introspection. Don’t be a pussy. No victimhood. Don’t be a pussy. Take it like a man.

      Bur, seriously, thanks for showing us what blacks have to put up with. I must rethink my assumptions on the extent of BLM exaggerations. Are you a cop in a black neighborhood?

      Mass movements do not need a god, but they do need a devil. Hatred unifies the True Believers.”
      -Eric Hoffer, “The True Believers” (1951)

      Throughout human history, the worst abuses have been committed by those who believe they are defending some “greater good” — the Collective, the State, the Master Race, the Party or a God. Zealots and fanatics. The militant self-righteous.

  33. //As a matter of fact, Giuliani is correct that about 90 percent of blacks are murdered by other blacks. However, the similar figure for white-on-white murders is 83 percent, reflecting the reality that most murders are committed by people who know each other. //
    Wait what? did you even watch the video? Giuliani mentions both- bc he’s making a point you are studiously ignoring: that the vast majority of ppl choosing to associate themselves with BLM focus on cops not the slogan it trades on for whatever legitimacy it has.

    1. Wait what? did you even watch the video? Giuliani mentions both

      Wait what? In totally opposite language.

      The vast majority of ppl choosing to associate themselves with BLM focus on cops not the slogan it trades on for whatever legitimacy it has.

      Ahh, thanks for revealing your bias

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