Race

We Need a Different, Better Conversation on Race and Public Policy

Blacks and whites are talking past each other instead of connecting. Sadly, there's no reason to think anything will change soon.

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In a series of recent highly publicized and criticized appearances, former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani has criticized Black Lives Matter (BLM) for not caring about murders of African Americans unless they are committed by police. Over the weekend on Fox News' Fox & Friends and CBS's Face the Nation, he discussed how the vast majority of homicides of blacks are committed by criminals of the same race and that his policing changes in New York saved "more black lives" than BLM ever has.

Here's Giuliani appearing this morning on Fox News, reiterating the same basic points:

As a matter of fact, Giuliani is correct that about 90 percent of blacks are murdered by other blacks. However, the similar figure for white-on-white murders is 83 percent, reflecting the reality that most murders are committed by people who know each other. So "America's mayor" is kind of missing the point when he badgers "blacks" for not focusing more on black-on-black murders. The same point can be made about white-on-white murders.

When it comes to people killed by the police in 2016, males are tremendously overrepresented (95 percent of deaths are of men), and so are blacks and people with signs of mental illness. In fact, the latter two groups account for about 25 percent of deaths despite comprising far-smaller percentages of the population. Yet Giuliani is correct that killings in largely black areas of Chicago, which have surged 62 percent this year so far and are on pace to set recent record totals, seem to elicit less media attention and certainly less outrage than less-numerous shootings by police.

Pew Research Center

There are many reasons for this, of course, including some ideological blindspots by journalists are more comfortable with all-police-are-racist narratives than calling attention to out-of-control violence in a city headed up by Barack Obama's former chief of staff. But it's also true that police are rightly held to higher standards than the gang-bangers responsible for the overwhelming majority of murders in cities such as Chicago. Cops are trained to serve and protect; as civil servants, we expect more from them than we do regular citizens (whether good or bad, this is also one of the reasons why killing a policeman often receives an enhanced punishment).

And figures such as Giuliani, who was mayor of New York during several high-profile killings and brutalizations of blacks by police, are often extremely divisive in the way they discuss and approach issues of crime, race, and policing. Yes, he presided over a major reducution in murder and violent-crime rates that made life better for black New Yorkers, as well as all other residents. But to assert again and again that "I saved more black lives than Black Lives Matter" is unlikely to persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you. There are bright spots, for sure, such as Rand Paul's attempts to reach out to black audiences from the Republican side of the aisle, new interest in how employment-licensing and minimum-wage laws disproportionately hurt African Americans, and a growing coalition of conservatives, liberals, and libertarians interested in sentencing reform.

At least this much is beyond question: Blacks and whites have massively different views regarding whether the United States is color-blind. As Pew Research noted recently, 43 percent of blacks not only don't think we've achieved parity yet, but that we never will. As the graphic to the right shows, almost 40 percent of whites already think we've achieved equal rights. When it comes to dealing with the police, fully 50 percent of whites think black are treated unfairly, while 84 percent of blacks say they are likely to be treated unequally. Throughout a series of situations—such as applying for a mortgage or being treated fairly in the workplace—there are similar gaps in perceptions of fairness.

This is not the sort of difference of opinion that will be resolved easily or with simple reference to whatever "facts" either side can marshal to support its point of view. Indeed, that same Pew survey found that blacks thought Barack Obama had helped racial progress while whites thought he had stymied it.

It is unlikely that conversations about race relations will improve any time soon. As Gallup has noted, confidence in major institutions governing politics, culture, commerce, media, and other aspects of our lives are at or near-historical lows. Over the past 25 years, recurring failures, deceptions, and outright lies by those in power have taken a toll on American attitudes toward government actors at all levels. But the same can be said for economic actors, law enforcement, and the trustworthiness of elites of all stripes. We don't just need a different conversation about race—one that simultaneously acknowledges real progress, personal responsibility on all sides, and systemic effects of public policies—but one that is conducted in an atmosphere of mutual trust and good faith. Those things are in particularly short supply now and very little about the current political climate gives reason for optimism.

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  1. I think the conversation about race should be between Rudy Giuliani and Shaun King, and that’s it. Those two get it.

    1. Two men enter, one man leaves.

    2. Two white guys talking about race, so typical.

      1. Fuck off.

        1. Well that one bombed.

        2. Shaun King is as much “black” as Rachael Dolezal.

          Sorry. /not sorry

    3. Why would you want a “race” conversation between two white people?

  2. When you force people to associate who normally wouldn’t, shit like this is pretty much guaranteed.

    1. Are you suggesting we segregate Rudy Giuliani from the rest of the populace?

      1. It couldn’t hurt.

        1. Yeah, let’s get rid of the guy who single-handedly kept New York safe after 9/11. How soon we forget.

  3. So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders.

    Is he missing the point if he was talking to BLM and not blacks in general? I don’t think it’s accurate to equate the two.

    1. Like I am gonna believe this was really Guliani and not some homeless doppelganger dressed up in a suit for ratings. The real Guliani would have explained how he is best suited to understand this issue because he lived through 9/11.

    2. Bingo.

  4. In other statistics, over 90% of jokes are murdered by Carlos Mencia.

    1. *rim job, uh, SHOT*

    2. Only because Margaret Cho just tortures them into submission and silence.

  5. We don’t just need a different conversation about race?one that simultaneously acknowledges real progress, personal responsibility on all sides, and systemic effects of public policies?but one that is conducted in an atmosphere of mutual trust and good faith.

    We have to *do something*. Quick. For the children of all four races.

  6. Blacks and whites are talking past each other instead of connecting. Sadly, there’s no reason to think anything will change soon.

    Speak for yourself, Nick. My black neighbors and my white self discuss this openly and calmly. In fact, my black next-door neighbor says that I should be less critical and give the cops more credit. He says that theirs is not an easy job.

    1. The funny thing is that I’ve had two separate conversations with two black men in their late twenties who are the classic demographic for police brutality and harassment and both take the stance that a.) police generally don’t stop people unless they’ve done something wrong, at some point, or are going to, and that b.) policing is a hard job and they respect people who do it, and believe that you have to give cops a break since the job is so stressful.

      1. From my anecdotal experience, all the furor is from liberal white girls, college educated blacks with ethnic studies degrees, and urban “anarchists. ” All of the average everyday black folks I’ve rubbed shoulders with seem a bit turned off by this #BLM crop. Maybe it’s because I’m only around middle and upper class blacks.

        1. But CNN is reporting hundreds upon hundreds of protestors at these things. Sometimes they even have enough people to block a road.

        2. Ah, the fabled Left-Anarchist. A close relative of the Anarcho-Communist. One of many varieties of anarchist that surprisingly is in favor of a bigger government.

      2. It’s almost as if black people aren’t a monolith that all think alike.

        1. Presumably, though, they are acting against their own interests by supporting the police. What’s the matter with Kansas Compton?

      3. My own anecdote – NOT among the likely demographic (college, professional – but single young male and mouthy) – was comparing traffic type stops and what happened. My own experience and another white guy was that we were stopped about 6-10 times in our early 20’s. Mostly legitimate stops (speeding/etc) – and once we got the ticket we went on our way. The two black guys had been stopped 30+ times – mostly legitimate but not because they were bigger violators but because they were under constant surveillance. And if they even looked crosseyed, they got the full car search and patdown.

        My conclusion – we white guys got the benefit of the doubt from cops. The black guys did not get the benefit of the doubt. They were assumed to be guilty of something and hiding something and the cops took it on themselves to figure out what. And since most cops/judges (the guys with the power in that situation) are white, it doesn’t surprise me at all that it gets viewed through a racial lens.

        Even worse when a guy like Guiliani (and most other apologists too) take on a martyr complex when making excuses and pretend that they should be deemed the white savior of blacks because they are saving blacks from other blacks

  7. Of course nothing is ever going to change; Obama and the democrats need blacks to stay on Victimhood Plantation forever, because that plantation is the endless renewable resource of their wealth and power.

    1. If Hispanics ever took voting as seriously as blacks Dems could probably soon forget about them.

  8. ” So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders. The same point can be made about white-on-white murders.”

    And if there were a White Lives Matter movement blocking interstate highways with traffic, that might be a salient point. But there isn’t, so it’s not.

    Racializing the very real and serious problem of police abuse does nothing but divide the popular views on the subject and make it that much harder to seriously address it. And the point is that there are a helluva lot more black Americans who are murdered by other black Americans than by the police. The problem is police abuse – focus on that. “Black Lives Matter” suggests that only the lives snuffed out by cops matter. The ones being killed day in and day out aren’t worth getting worked up about, only the Alton Sterlings or Philando Castiles.

    1. Racializing the very real and serious problem of police abuse does nothing but divide the popular views on the subject and make it that much harder to seriously address it.

      For our rulers, racial division is a feature, not a bug.

      Divide and conquer.

  9. Shorter Giuliani: Ignore the murders by police because there’s so many murders not committed by police.

    Shorter invisible finger: Fuck You, Rudy.

    1. Yeah, its the classic “but what about” diversion.

      1. Yes, it absolutely is. Doesn’t mean that the BLM crowd isn’t being awfully selective about the deaths they choose to be outraged about, though.

        1. Except that the police should be able to somewhat control murders committed by police versus controlling murders committed by non-police. The fact that murders committed by police result in nobody found “guilty” at a much higher rate than murders committed by non-police.

          At the rate the CPD is going though, the general public is closer to getting away with murder as much as a police officer is able to get away with it.

          1. Absolutely. It still makes me roll my eyes at BLM. Address police abuse for what it is, don’t try to mold it to your particular hobby horses.

            1. Oh sure, the hobby horse is part of the problem, it opens the door for the “but what about” evasion. BLM plays right into the statists hands, just like the Fight For 15 jerks.

            2. I hear ya, Chip.

              The BLMers divert from the real problem, and then the rebuttal diverts again. We somehow get from
              “too many blacks are killed by cops” to “not enough blacks are killed by cops”.

      2. Look, ignore the fact our poor quality control caused numerous children with cancer to die unnecessarily from their chemotherapy drugs, and that instead of fixing a known problem, we hid the evidence and covered it up. While we’re at, ignore the fact that we’re financially encouraging doctors to prescribe chemo for common childhood maladies that could be addressed with antibiotics or bed rest. Let’s be honest, you’re just some commie that hates pharmaceutical companies. 300 kids died from cancer in Chicago last month, but I don’t see you protesting cancer.

        (Of course, on the other side, there’s the guy who claims that the pharmaceutical companies are just giving people cancer in the first place to force them to get chemo, and no one would get cancer naturally, and we should burn down the factory that makes their poisonous chemotherapy drugs.)

      3. Not really a “but what about” diversion. It’s simply taking the name of their movement seriously, when BLM won’t.

        They say “black lives matter”. But they obviously don’t, to them.

        Racial resentment matters, to them. Opportunities for violence matters, to them.

  10. So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders. The same point can be made about white-on-white murders.

    Did I miss the WLM protests? It was that week in Cabo wasn’t it?

  11. We Need a Different, Better Conversation on Race and Public Policy
    Blacks and whites are talking past each other instead of connecting. Sadly, there’s no reason to think anything will change soon.

    Weep not, my comrades. There is a solution, and its name is socialism. It is only through being a socialist slave for The State that the little people can enjoy the true equality and egalitarianism via oppression, terror and mass murder that only socialism can bring. Yes, everyone, will have the same ration of food, the same amount of time spent in the gulag, wear the same clothing, have the same indoctrination, have the same mandatory military training and the same number in their family murdered by The State.
    However, the ruling elitist filth will exempt from such wonderful and generous blessings given by The State. They will live in daschas, drive around in limousines to and fro to the Politburo, extract enormous salaries off the back of the untermenschen and enjoy all the benefits and perks entitled to those who are busy enslaving us all.
    This is what we socialists call equality.

      1. I tried to make an indentation by pushing the tab button, buy nothing happened. So I continued to write on the next line.

  12. If there was a systemic drive to shield gangbangers from the repercussions of their actions, I imagine Giuliani would be front and center to protest.

    1. Um isn’t that what BLM is?

  13. “So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders. The same point can be made about white-on-white murders.”

    No, he isn’t. The point is that a fuss is made *only* when a cop (or white person in general) kills a black person. Nobody makes any fuss when whites are killed, so at least they’re consistent there.

    1. Three homeless men have been killed in San Diego over the past week or so and it doesn’t even show up in the top five Google search suggestions. When police kill homeless whites or hispanics or anyone else (with homes for that matter) they do so in isolation, often because the victim had crazy political beliefs, or lots of guns, or was off his meds, or whatever. But when a cop kills a black person, it’s evidence of a cultural conspiracy.

      Which is of course total bullshit. Cops kill too many people for a number of reasons, including that sometimes bad people become police.

      1. Wasn’t a white 6 year old autistic child shot by a police officer last year? This stuff isn’t rare at all.

  14. “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders

    This is entirely misleading.

    The point is that young blacks kill each other *way more frequently* than whites

    Are we supposed to think Nick is so dull-witted that he didn’t realize the point is about the absurdly-high homicide rates among young blacks? Or that he knew exactly what he was doing, and was purposely throwing a head-fake?

    1. (sigh)

      the link

    2. Another example of the same point (with wider age ranges and comparisons)

    3. That’s true, but Internet conservatives regularly highlight stories of interracial crime and how blacks commit more crime/murder against whites than vice versa, often highly exaggerating it (see the graphic Trump retweeted a few months back that had inaccurate stats), and ignoring the fact that most crime (especially murder) committed against white people is committed by other white people. So I think it’s a valid point to make to many on both sides of the spectrum.

      1. you are talking percentages….Dennis is talking volume.

    4. The Jacket does not want to argue on ground unfavorable to his opinions, so he attempts to change subject while pretending he didn’t just change the subject.

      He’s reason’s version of Three Card Monte.

    5. I didn’t know you were called Dennis.

      -Well, you didn’t bother to ask, did you?

      1. What I object to is that you automatically treat me like an inferior …

        1. Bloody peasant!

          -You hear that? Dead giveaway there!

  15. So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders.

    No not really. This is major derpage. What Rudy means – Nick knows this btw – is that inner city blacks are murdering each other at alarming rates. A subject not often broached by any of the MSM news outlets.

    Sure there is disproportionate police violence wielded against blacks but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the mostly WOD inspired murders in places like Chicago and Detroit.

    1. Only 2,095 people have been shot in Chicago this year. Gosh.

      1. .01% of the population. Statistically insignificant.

        And it counts person-incidents, so if you were shot twice in a week you count as two person-incidents.

        1. “… if you were shot twice in a week…”

          Is that really a thing?

          Because, what sort of life do you have to live in order to get shot twice in one week? And does civil society really owe much of anything to the sorts of people living those lives?

          1. Mother Theresa may have had compassion for those sorts. But is anyone really arguing that the majority of us need to do so as well?

          2. My friends dad is a doctor. In his youth he worked ER in a not so friendly area of St. Louis. He said on several occasions while working on gun shot victims the shooter would come rolling into the hospital to try to finish them off. Do they count that as one or two shootings?

      2. Interestingly, 80% or more of shootings in Chicago are self-contained in a handful of social networks.

    2. No not really.

      Yes, really.

      If cops reacted the same way to a cop killing someone that they do to a non-cop killing someone then there would be much less cause to protest. If a cop went to prison for murder like a non-cop would then Giuliani would have a point.

  16. When it comes to people killed by the police in 2016, males are tremendously overrepresented (95 percent of deaths are of men), and so are blacks and people with signs of mental illness.

    Like it or not, males and blacks also commit a disproportionate amount of both overall crime and violent crime. When you control for that, whites are actually proportionally (as well as numerically) more likely to be shot by police than blacks.

  17. It is unlikely that conversations about race relations will improve any time soon.

    Probably not because of many reasons few people want to talk about, like the fact the police have been militarized, blacks are many times more likely to resist arrest than whites, BLM is a leftist group so violence is no big deal for them, and this is an election year where playing the race card is good for the Democrats.

  18. So “America’s mayor” is kind of missing the point when he badgers “blacks” for not focusing more on black-on-black murders.

    Not when BLM activists are attempting to claim the moral high ground of purportedly caring about actual black lives.

    What percentage of black deaths are caused by criminals vs. those caused by the police? We can be generous here and include every one of those – the entire gamut from entirely justified to entirely unjustified – because that still will not significantly alter the fact that the vast majority of black killings are not caused by the police.

    So he’s not missing the point, he is simply making the point that you are attempting to avoid.

    1. I suppose the “but what about” all those blacks not killed by cops is just as valid a rebuttal to “too many blacks are killed by cops” as the “but what about” all those fetuses who miscarry is a valid rebuttal to “abortion is murder”, right?

      1. That analogy might make sense if someone was rebutting “too many blacks are killed by cops” with “but what about all those blacks who die from natural causes”.

  19. There’s a point about black-on-black murders I think everyone is missing? are they being investigated as thoroughly as murders of non-blacks?

    1. I’m guessing if there is a bias, it probably has to do with the length of the victim’s rap sheet (ie, less racism and more “got what was coming to him”-ism)

    2. There’s a point about black-on-black murders I think everyone is missing? are they being investigated as thoroughly as murders of non-blacks?

      Well, according to progressives, the high incarceration rate of blacks is a result of investigating black criminals too much and going easy on whites. So, you take your pick which kind of racism you want to accuse the legal system of, but make up your mind.

      In reality, there is little evidence that different racial are disproportionately prosecuted or incarcerated relative to the crimes they commit.

    3. “We know you don’t care about investigating; also, we are not going to help your investigation at all” could summarize the regular response.

      In such an environment, it’s no wonder motivation to give a damn falls.

  20. ” not focusing more on black-on-black murders”

    I think the obvious criticism if that most blacks including Obama don’t focus AT ALL on these murders unless the black is a policeman maybe.

    If Gillespie really wants serious talk on race relations, he will skip the cheap shots.

  21. “and libertarians interested in sentencing reform.”

    Sentencing reform? Why not, as long as prisons are running and open for business.

  22. As a matter of fact, Giuliani is correct that about 90 percent of blacks are murdered by other blacks. However, the similar figure for white-on-white murders is 83 percent, reflecting the reality that most murders are committed by people who know each other.”

    Except that the white population is a lot closer to 83% while the black population of the US is nowhere close to 90%.

    1. Sorry if the above is confusing, i fail at block quoting.

  23. We need to have a conversation about having a conversation about race. We need to talk about talking about race. Nick we need a conversation about freedom of association and property rights. If we can’t have that in a libertarian publication then where can we have it?

  24. It is unlikely that conversations about race relations will improve any time soon.

    They will never “improve” because having conversations about race relations is bullshit.

    People are individuals, not members of arbitrary groups defined by skin color.

    1. People are not individuals because far too many have a deep-seated need for tribalism. Few have the personal strength of character to be individuals and only feel more secure embracing a tribe of people they can hide amongst. Skin color is the best thing hide behind and dressing in the same manner adds additional camouflage.

      It’s always a wonderful exercise in psychology to look at long-time military vets, when the ‘veteran’ tribe completely replacing any other racial or regional tribalism.

    2. Why, that’s the most racist thing anyone’s ever said!

  25. Seems to me that Giuliani, BLM, and even Nick are missing the point that whenever anyone, regardless of race, murders anyone else, they end up in a world of trouble. Unless, of course, they wear a badge, in which case their union rep makes sure they’re “punished” with some paid vacation and local tax payers foot the bill for any court fees or legal judgements.

    Not even a mafia don enjoys that level of protection from any repercussions. It seems that, these days, any would-be violent criminal with an ounce of sense would be attracted to a career in law enforcement.

  26. Giuliani speaks to a core issue here. An important statistic he, and the author, leaves out is that homicide represents 40% of all young black male deaths. For comparison homicide represents only 3.8% of young white male deaths. Blacks are being killed at an alarmingly higher rate than others and its their peers who are killing them. If you truly care about black lives, you should care about this issue and focus on ways to alleviate crime, disenfranchisement, poverty, education gap, ending the drug war, etc…

    1. So blacks have children they can’t afford to feed and then shoot each other and it’s whites fault. What was the argument against slavery again?

  27. BS, Nick. Whites and blacks aren’t talking past each other. The issue is that black culture has been fed a steady stream of victimism from race pandering hacks. The POTUS on down use this to secure the black voting block, to the utter detriment of black culture, prosperity, and happiness.

    Don’t believe me? Have a conversation with the large number of first generation black immigrants who weren’t raised on the toxic and self-destructive African-American culture.
    Or alternatively, talk to some white poor and see how the police deal with them. Young white guy with stained wife-beater and young black guy with pants down to his thighs will receive identical responses from cops.

  28. Yes 83% of white people killed are killed by other whites but they are not out there blaming the cops for those murders. BLM is blaming all cops and the system in general for all black deaths. Its their way of trying to have different rules for them and they want more stuff from the government.

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  30. Yknow who else needed a different, better conversation on race and public policy? (Hint – it was Hitler)

  31. Blacks in this country tend to internalize and privilege their pain. More importantly, they undercut their legitimate grievances with racialist sentiments and often lash out at people who should be by their sides. BLM crashed memorial events set up for Orlando shooting victims because they felt upstaged. The LA riots is self explanatory. They won’t make any friends or progress by doing this. BLM is synonymous with “riot” for a lot of older Koreans who still feel they were used as punching bags for blacks angry at white men’s sins.

    To be perfectly blunt, most whites and even some immigrants are probably tired of them beating their chest over Jim Crow or whatnot. Yes, they were once used as chattel slaves, which happened to almost no one else. But America is less than 400 years old. Many groups of people were systematically targeted since the days of the bible. Millions of non whites escape their homeland and find success here.

    Why is BLM so offended by “All lives matter”? Why aren’t they affected by the fact many Asians and Latinos thrive here? It’s plain to see that blacks are often under attack by the police and the government. But I also see a group of people dominated by a sense of inferiority complex, victimhood mentality, and a tendency to lash out violently at people who they perceive to be “racist”. The fringe of that group ALIENATES people. For any meaningful dialogue to emerge, blacks in this country should engage in some serious introspection.

  32. //As a matter of fact, Giuliani is correct that about 90 percent of blacks are murdered by other blacks. However, the similar figure for white-on-white murders is 83 percent, reflecting the reality that most murders are committed by people who know each other. //
    Wait what? did you even watch the video? Giuliani mentions both- bc he’s making a point you are studiously ignoring: that the vast majority of ppl choosing to associate themselves with BLM focus on cops not the slogan it trades on for whatever legitimacy it has.

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