Uber, Lyft Drivers in Seattle Given Legal Go-Ahead to Unionize

How might union worker protection policies work along with a community-rating app system?


Earlier this week, Seattle's City Council passed a bill allowing rideshare-app drivers for companies such as Uber and Lyft to unionize. Herewith, some observations on what that might end up meaning:

The New York Times says:

The vote is a victory for the App-Based Drivers Association, or ABDA, of Seattle, an organization of on-demand contract workers that lobbied with the local Teamsters union for the legislation. It is a fight that other drivers around the country have watched closely; union organizers in California have said that the outcome of the Seattle vote could influence actions taken in their own cities….

Legal specialists said the measure could run afoul of federal labor laws. Groups of independent contractors engaging in collective bargaining could also run up against illegal price-fixing issues under antitrust law.

Seattle Times with details on how the local move does and does not jibe with federal labor law:

The National Labor Relations Act gives employees the right to collective bargaining. But drivers for taxi, for-hire and app-dispatch companies like Uber and Lyft are categorized as independent contractors, rather than employees, so those federal protections don't apply to them…

Uber and Lyft opposed the ordinance and argued that [councilmember Mike] O'Brien's proposal violates federal labor and antitrust laws, meaning the city likely will be sued.

Seattle Mayor Ed Murray is worred that the law will cost his city too much in overseeing the bargaining process and fighting such lawsuits, and refuses to sign the law, which can become law anyway without his signature.

How the move paves way to a union:

Under the ordinance, a taxi, for-hire or app-based vehicle-dispatch company will be required to provide the city with a list of its Seattle drivers. Then a nonprofit organization — most likely a union — will use the list to contact the drivers.

The nonprofit organization will need to gain the support of a majority of a company's drivers to be designated by the city as their bargaining representative.

The ordinance will require the company to seek an agreement with the representative organization. The city will enforce the ordinance's requirements through penalties such as fines, but not by revoking a company's license to operate.

• As Gizmodo notes, Seattle is not insisting that these unionized drivers are thus employees; that question underlies an ongoing lawsuit against Uber in California, which will cost them millions if they lose:

This means drivers will be able negotiate their salaries and working conditions as a unit. It does not mean, however, that they'll be considered employees—the bill refers to the workers as independent contractors.

The National Labor Relations Act doesn't give independent contractors the same protections for bargaining directly with the companies they work for as employees, but this bill offers a workaround by allowing a certified non-profit to represent the interests of drivers…..

A Lyft spokesperson told Gizmodo by email that the company does not support today's decision:

Lyft provides consumers with convenient and affordable transportation, and drivers with the ability to make money in their free time. Lyft drivers are entirely in control of where or when they work, and this flexibility is exactly why the service is so popular with with people looking to make extra income. Unfortunately, the ordinance passed today threatens the privacy of drivers, imposes substantial costs on passengers and the City, and conflicts with longstanding federal law….

• This Christian Science Monitor report highlights one of the conceptual divisions between union ideas of "job security" and "dismissal for cause" and a system where every opportunity for the driver to "work" gets chosen by a specific customer with access to community ratings on the driver:

"When it comes to the ability to unionize I think that's actually very powerful and has the ability to make these freelancers and contractors a lot more secure in their jobs," says Emily Hong, a program policy associate at the New America Foundation's Open Technology Institute, in an interview.

So-called gig economy work, she says, "provides a lot of flexibility but doesn't provide a lot of security. It will be very welcome in this space, especially if turns out that people are increasingly turning to Uber as full-time work."…

"The major disruptive innovation of the sharing economy that has allowed it to create opportunities for consumers and for producers is that these firms don't depend on the employer and employee relationship. They're simply platforms that connect consumers with producers," says Matt Mitchell, an economist at the market-focused Mercatus Center at George Mason University.

Professor Mitchell says companies like Uber also solve an issue economists call the asymmetric information problem, where one party in a transaction – such as a cab driver – has much better information than the other, through the company's ratings system.

Uber's rating system – which allows both customers and drivers to provide ratings – has proved controversial, with some drivers saying they have kicked off the app for unsubstantiated claims by customers….

Imagine, Uber or Lyft customer, being forced to prove before some union committee that your possibly job-restricting negative reaction to the driver is unfair or not properly substantiated.

Your opinion and judgment on your experience now has real effects on his or her potential employment status. It's not at all clear how union job protection policies can jibe with a community-rating economy.

NEXT: Rubio Absent for Omnibus Vote, Victory for Vegan Mayo, Sanders Camp at War With DNC: P.M. Links

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245 responses to “Uber, Lyft Drivers in Seattle Given Legal Go-Ahead to Unionize

  1. First!

    1. Yeah! First first for me. I’d like to thank my parents, my uncle and aunt, my siblings, Jesus, Abraham Lincoln, and so many others.

      1. Didn’t Lincoln say that the first shall be last?

      2. Just make sure you don’t thank Hitler………


  2. So how are companies colluding to set prices illegal / anti-trust / whatever, but workers colluding to set prices not illegal / anti-trust / whatever

      1. Are unions corporations?

          1. Surly, surly people.

            1. And lazy. Don’t forget lazy.

          2. Soylent Green, then.

            1. Gives a bitter taste to the Soylent Green. We can’t have that!

  3. Ahem, anyway, I didn’t read the article too closely, but what does this actually mean? What was preventing uber drivers from unionizing before? Does Uber just have a policy of not hiring unionized drivers? Or does this legislation require drivers to unionize?

    1. Just super pumped to get that first comment in there, eh?

      1. But of course. Greatest accomplishment of my life thus far. I’m a real overachiever.

    2. Uber/Lyft drivers aren’t employees, they are contractors, so have no right to unionize.

      Also, since Uber and Lyft continue to employ drivers based on good ratings from the people they drive, unionization would screw that up since you can’t fire them for basically any reason.

      1. Everyone has a right to unionize. They don’t have to ask permission from the state unless they want some sort of force used on Uber. They probably want to force Uber to have to do business with their union.

    3. Read the article.

      Uber/Lyft are required to send data on their drivers to the city government which will then hand it over to its designated “non-profit organization” (crony).

      If that doesn’t sound slimy as fuck, I don’t know what is.

      1. Yeah, it seems like a transparent attempt to destroy Uber/Lyft to me.

        1. Well, I believe it’s a transparent attempt to pay off Unions, and the city government of Seattle is firmly in the Union pocket. However, I think the attitude is that if Uber/Lyft get destroyed in the process, the general sentiment is so be it.

        2. yup. Faster and cheaper and more effective that a lawsuit, as in california… except that this city ordinance will be challanged at law. Its bogus, something for which Seattle are well known…..

          an interesting work around would be to move the headquarters/dispatch centre to some nearby city..Brier, Kenmore, Mountlake Terrace, etc. Seattle? So in the back pocket of unions it ain’t even funny/ they’ve been driving Boeing nuts for fifty years and more

          Bottom line is Uber/Lyft drivers are NOT employees… and thus cannot bargain collectively. Uber are not their employer, scheduler, etc. The passengers are the ones decide who will take them, and for how much, and when. If the employees of one McDonald’s franchise location want to organise/unionise, nothing is to stop them. But if one location goes union that does not mean ALL such locations in King County are now unionised…… NLRB will either have something to say against this, or prove they really ARE in the beds of the unions…… a near proven fact already.

          1. “NLRB will either have something to say against this, or prove they really ARE in the beds of the unions…”

            That only matters if the voting majority cares if that perception is viewed negatively.

    4. Concise explanation: The laws, rules, regulations, coupled with so many different types of players in the economic system each having a different set of law, rules, and regulations constitute a mess resembling the bird’s nest in my fishing reel and just as impossible to unravel.

      That is what it means Mark.

    5. ?ber drivers are not employees. They are independent contractors.

  4. Groups of independent contractors engaging in collective bargaining could also run up against illegal price-fixing issues under antitrust law

    I’m in a union, my local once sent out something about scales for 1099 independent contractor work; I’ve always been curious how that’s any different than a group of grocery stores getting together and deciding how much to charge for a loaf of bread. Do the unions for plumbers and electricians and other tradesman type workers do this kind of thing? If you are working on your own you have to charge at least scale?

    1. many unions have policies that require paying union wages for subcontract work on their projects. Raises the overall cost to the owner/builder, But they don’t care, they’re tne union. Washington State Law provides for “prevailing wage” to be paid all workers on any publically funded job over some fairly small dollar amount, I think $25K or so, nothing these days. Non union contractors have to provide extra and constly paperwork to prove they are doing this. Raises the tax burden on all of us.

      But the app based service is not the same thing. Yellow Cab have no means of forcing Uber to charge what Yellow charge… which is what is at the root of this donnybrook. We alll know its the high union wages and constly work rules that make such things so costly. Uber/Lyft do an end run around all that and the unons hate it. If they’d provide a fair hour’s work for a fair hour’s pay, it would be another story. Of course, part of cam’s high costs are from the limited number of licenses issued by the local government.

      1. Some cities, the license, or “medallion” can cost over a million bucks…. its a commodity with a market price driven by its scarcity. Imagine if all driving licenses were cancelled, and one tenth of the number will be reissued…. once someone has bought, at open auction at market established price, the “priviledge” of being able to get a driving license. Does anyone think those permits to buy a license will sell for fifty bucks? now imagine if the high bidders could buy ALL THEY COULD AFFORD at their high bid price…. and some big moneybags bought THEM ALL… he now owns the entire stock of the permits to get yuor license, and can sell each one to an individual at the highest price… THIS is the model of the city taxi permits…. and each city in which a cab picks up a fare requires that cab to have their (expensive) permission to do that. And that’s not including the city business licenses, taxes on the cars, etc…..

        If I were a diabolical scheister I could not, in a hundred years. develop a more sinister system of enriching myself at the expense of the general public, who would be completely at MY mercy.

  5. The vote is a victory for the App-Based Drivers Association, or ABDA, of Seattle,

    AKA, The Teamsters.

  6. Under the ordinance, a taxi, for-hire or app-based vehicle-dispatch company will be required to provide the city with a list of its Seattle drivers.

    In the really real world, this would be like being forced to provide a list of potential leads to say, a Real Estate Broker, or direct-marketing corporation. But in Seattle, this is just good for workin’ class folks… nothing to see here.

  7. This means drivers will be able negotiate their salaries and working conditions as a unit. It does not mean, however, that they’ll be considered employees?the bill refers to the workers as independent contractors.

    And that unit will be The Teamsters, or the SEIU. Who will get a percentage. And will you be allowed to opt out, or is this where our pro-choice bona-fides get kinda fuzzy wuzzy?

    Imagine, kids… that you agree to mow my neighbors lawn. Suddenly, a stranger steps in between you and the neighbor and says, “No can do… gotta go through me, it’s for yer own good. I’m here to protect you.”

    You then ask the obvious, “Why don’t I just deal with the neighbor directly?” To which the neighbor responds, “Because he’ll exploit you.” You follow up with, “What do you get out of protecting me?” to which he replies, “5% of your wages kick back to me.”

    Normally, this would be great material for a mob movie. But in the modern day, this is all called “selflessly protecting the working man” and is unquestioningly supported by the newspaper.

    1. To which the neighbor responds,

      Should be, to which the stranger responds.

    2. If the worker makes more through collective bargaining it’s worthwhile. I’m very prounion but also an anarchist. If the union cannot provide a benefit to its members it should not exist.

      1. I’m a chist. It saves effort. Being an anar is even more economical.

        1. “Arch” might also be good. Pronounced “arc”. Arch arc.

      2. Well, the union will exist whether or not it benefits the drivers. That’s rather the problem. You open the door and it’s around forever, whether or not it serves the common man’s interest.

        1. Well, no. Absent the force of state a union can only exist if it provides its members an economic benefit. I believe collective bargaining is in the interest of the common worker but only on a voluntary basis.

          1. don’t unions have state force behind them? it is stupid; unions are supposed to just be employees all asking for a raise together which shouldnt have any interaction at all with the law either way.

            1. I agree. There should be no state action supporting or repressing collective bargaining.

          2. Okay, yes, granted, in theory, but given the current arrangement between state and union, the vampiric sort of union experience is going to prevail.

  8. OT: Vox thinks that berating people online for making sexist remarks is what makes the internet great.

    1. Pointing and laughing at Vox is what makes the internet great.

        1. ” – I feel like we put so much effort into writing and crafting everything, they need to speak for themselves. There’s a real culture of demanding apologies, and I’m opting out of that.””

          Fey’s statement makes for a neat sound bite, but it actually encompasses a number of messy conflicts.'”

          Caroline Framke’s ass encompasses a lot of messy conflicts

          There’s a genre of twittering that amounts to so much,

          “”OMG crying laughing mega-emotion cuz something stupid random, Right?!?! (you all so *get me*)””

          Its a form of communication that i believe evolved out of “stupid valley girl“-language, but eventually developed intellectual/cultural pretensions. Which is probably so patricarchybro of me to like even think.

          1. Like OMG Gilmore, I totally can’t even

    2. Fey and Poehler are raging progs and thus responsible for helping to create the very thing that Fey is complaining about. I will shed a tear for her. One tear small enough to fit up a mosquitoes ass without him noticing.

      1. I have a fifth cousin whose job was giving mosquitoes enemas for malaria research. She was the only one who had the fine motor control to both make the glass tubing and to wield in in service.

      2. Tina Fey isn’t so bad. I read her book and she’s more just liberal than “raging prog”. On quite a few issues she thinks for herself. This one is a good example.

    3. This is the same site that was recently all aglow at the idea of having your internet browser replace the words “political correctness” with the phrase “treating others with respect”.

      No, really.

      Their opinion of the internet is right up there with Trump and the crazy homeless guy who hangs out at the library and jacks off when he thinks you’re not looking.

      1. Someone needs to write a Firefox/Chrome extension that changes all mentions of the publication “Vox” to, “Smarmy Prog-Douche”

    4. I love making sexist remarks on the Internet! Now you broads out there quit your bitchin’ and get back to the kitchen. Bake your menfolk a pie!

  9. Hire undocumented aliens who wants to work below union mandated wages and condition. The problem is solved.

    Oh, but it’s illegal to hire noncitizens, you say. OK.

  10. I dunno, but to me, this sounds like the taxi cartel basically absorbing the Uber drivers. Which will be the end of Uber. What would be Uber’s attraction when they basically become the very entities that they were an alternative to?

  11. City implements racist tax on guns and ammo:

    Lawyers for Seattle and the National Rifle Association (NRA) exchanged verbal buckshot Friday at a hearing over the city’s new tax on gun and ammunition sales.

    But neither side scored an immediate victory in the King County Superior Court case that may determine whether city officials can make Seattle’s gun sellers pay up.

    The NRA, other gun-rights groups, two Seattle gun stores and a pair of local gun owners sued the city earlier this year in an attempt to block the tax from taking effect.


    1. the King County Superior Court case that may determine whether city officials can make Seattle’s gun sellers pay up

      Well, they may be able to make them magically disappear if nothing else. The left coast seems to excel at that sort of thing.

      1. Ought to be a slam-dunk court case, since the Supreme Court has already ruled governments can’t tax a fundamental right, like voting. In a just world, “shall not be infringed” would be as close to fundamental as you can get.

        1. I’d hardly call voting a fundamental right. Hell, is it even correct to call it a right?

          1. Exactly. How can the RKBA be any less of a fundamental right?

      2. Which is clearly the goal.

    2. this illegal tax cannot stand. In Washington STate, state law prempts, or overrides, all more restrictive or burdening local law. Seattle learned this the hard way a few years back when they tried to enforce a ban on all firearms in Seattle public places.. parks, etc. State law does not do this, so Seattle can’t either. The AtG worte Nickels a letter telling him he can’t do this but he signed the new law anyway, and was sued…. it took several years and went all the way to the State Supreme COurt, getitng smacked down at every step. Tens of thousands of Seattle resident’s tax dollars wasted.. then they had to pay the winner’s legal costs, too. That cost Chump Change Nickels his reelection (along with his refusal/failure to clear snow off Seattle streets that winter, which had the city all but locked down for two weeks) Mayor Mc Schwinn picked up that torch and carried it… losing all the way.

      This tax is a more strict burden placed upon gun buyers and sellers within the city limits of Seattle, and thus cannot stand the preemption test. A couple of gun stores have already left Seattle city… which will no longer get the benefits of the Business and Occupaitons tax portion from the activity of those businesses. Serves em right. Find out about Laffer’s Curve… Seattle is learning. And will learn more.

      1. Governor Inslee and AG Ferguson are both huge Marxist pieces of shit. So don’t count on the rule of law prevailing.

  12. Under the ordinance, a taxi, for-hire or app-based vehicle-dispatch company will be required to provide the city with a list of its Seattle drivers.

    City of Seattle

    “Due to the recently passed ordinance, Uber drivers will no longer pick up passengers from within Seattle city limits. Customers who wish to travel outside the city of Seattle may meet a driver at any address outside of the city. We apologize for the inconvenience, and advise individuals who are dissatisfied with this policy to contact the City of Seattle and petition for a repeal of the ordinance. Thank you.”

      1. So, this is a right to partition?

    1. It was great while it lasted.

      1. Tyranny of the majority was never grand, except in comparison to tyranny of the individual king or generalissimo.

        1. you mean, the ONLY guy with the ONLY guns?

          1. I mean that if decentralizing government by majority rule is better than leaving it in the hands of one dictator, then decentralizing it further so individuals control their own lives without having to bow to a majority is even better.

  13. Conservative outrage as NYC judge takes oath on Quran

    A New York civil court judge raised more than eyebrows during her recent swearing in ceremony. She also raised the suspicions of the NYPD hate-crimes unit after she became the target of multiple threats.

    The New York Post reports that Judge Carolyn Walker-Diallo received threatening phone calls after a video was posted to Facebook showing the newly-appointed judge being sworn in using the Quran:

    According to the Post, a male caller said:

    “You are not an American because you got sworn in on a Koran.”

    A second, female caller added:

    “You’re a terrorist; we are going to get you.”

    Many other critics argued that this was not the “right time” for the public display. Fox Business commentator Kevin Kelly said:

    “‘It’s such a sensitive subject especially when it comes to what’s guiding their higher beliefs and powers that dictate their actions and decisions,’ he opined. ‘And swearing on that, especially right now, we know we’re at war right now with radical [Islamists] that do believe in the Koran and can actually distort it.'”

    Fucking idiots.

    1. Well, to be fair it certainly could be interpreted as a microagression.

      1. What, not spelling it “Qur’an”?

          1. What happened to “Koran”?


            1. It was trumped, shall we say.

            2. same thing happened to “moslem”, the ONLY term used for them for a hundred years until about…. a couple decades back. Never did learn why the change. I default to the original one. Maybe we coul;d resurrect the really old term “mahometans”… used in colonail times.

              1. Do you mean the Moops?

                1. Damn straight! The Moops were great conquerors.

    2. Never mind the random social media/journalistic assholes, the *head of GOPAC,* a key Republican organization, expressed criticism.

      So maybe the progs got it right this time about no-kidding Islamophobia penetrating the Republican Party – even the establishment.

      Worried about a government official swearing on the Koran? Well then, ask the voters not to elect Muslims. If the voters entrust a Muslim with public office, don’t freak out all of a sudden when the Muslim swears on the religion’s own book. Gosh, who could have forseen that!

      Let me look up the judge…

      1. Well, all I can tell is (a) she has a hyphenated name and (b) she’s a lady judge. I don’t think this is all that common in salafist/jihadist circles, so maybe she belongs to one of the friendlier strains of Islam.

        1. OK, then, apparently she showcased her faith during her campaign and the voters picked her anyway, despite (or because of) her being Muslim.

          So when she swears on the Koran and showcases it on Facebook, that’s fully in line with the sort of person the voters knew her to be.

          So the critics have a couple of options.

          They can criticize her for being Muslim.

          They can call the voters blind fools for electing a Mohametan to office.

          But they can’t say, “sure, the voters chose to elect a Muslim, but that doesn’t mean she gets to make a bigh thing about using her faith’s holy book at her swearing in.”

          As a matter of fact, that’s exactly what it means.

          So have the guts to blame the voters who elected her, or else back off.

          1. So far, none of the high-profile Muslims elected have turned out to be particularly religious or devout, in my observation.

            They have all turned out to be leftist assholes, though.

            And for what it’s worth, I don’t think it takes much to get a Republican to blame NYC voters for the sordid state of their politics.

    3. Um…did they expect a Muslim to swear an oath on the Bible?

      1. How about on the Constitution? A radical concept, I know.

    4. What about a stack of old Playboys?

      1. Um…despite my fairly strong Methodist beliefs…I might be tempted to do that…

        *looks aorund furtively*

        1. Or crusted.

    5. Apparently, “distort” in now a synonym for “do exactly what it says”. Who knew?

    6. We have seen that threatening and perpetrating violence gets the Islamists what they want (how many comedians state that they lay off jokes about Islam because they fear violence?). Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

  14. “An Aurora police officer slipped on ice and accidentally shot and critically wounded an unarmed suspect of a car theft ring, officials said Friday.”


    1. War on cops! Deport global warming!

    2. The officer’s gun was equipped with a tactical flashlight, said Aurora police spokesman Sgt. Chris Amsler.

      Such flashlights, particularly those with certain easily activated switches, have been implicated in a number of accidental shootings in Colorado and across the country. Last year, Denver’s police chief has banned the use of tactical flashlights with switches below the trigger guard after officers accidentally fired their guns.

      Gun peoples: is it plausible that Officer Slippypants went to switch on his flashlight and instead pulled the trigger?

      1. “Gun peoples: is it plausible that Officer Slippypants went to switch on his flashlight and instead pulled the trigger?”

        Not if that cop had half a fucking brain cell left in his vacuous skull.

        1. This^

          /prior service with UBERFLASHLIGHT on the end of my M-4

    3. Oh, this section:

      The officer was placed on administrative leave pending the investigation.

      “He’s taking this very seriously,” Metz said of the officer.

      1. = He is home painting his basement walls, drinking beer and watching ESPN.

        1. Exactly what i am doing now, sans painting

    4. “This unintentional shooting will be treated the same as any officer-involved shooting,” Saunier said.

      A brief paid vacation and a medal of bravery?

      1. It’s a Denver suburb, so I’m pretty sure the officer involved is granted right of prima nocta.

      2. Nice work Lou

    5. I know preciesly what allowed this to happen… one of the few universal and basic gun safety rules is this : KEEP yuor finger OFF the trigger until the sights are ON the thing you want to hit (the target). THen, if you DO slip and fall or get bumped, or whatever, the finger will not draw the trigger back. Cop needs a good review of safety protocol.

  15. The National Abortion Federation (NAF) wants a federal judge to issue a prior-restraint order.

    Specifically, NAF wants the judge to order the prolife Center for Medical Progress not to publish videos it took of NAF meetings in 2014 and 2015.

    The NAF also wants the prolifers held in contempt for showing Congress the evidence it found, obeying a Congressional subpoena.

    Tom Brejcha of the Thomas More Society, defending the prolifers, says – “It is no wonder that the U.S. Reporters’ Committee filed a ‘friend of the Court’ submission before the district court hearing NAF’s case, protesting that ‘any prior restraint on speech that is issued by a court has the potential to significantly affect the First Amendment rights of the news media and the public at large.’ If NAF wins this case, criminals will rejoice and journalists will weep.”

    1. Despite the cries of “We are moral people!” coming from the pro-abortion crowd their behavior rarely seems to bear that out.

      1. Has Reason covered this prior-restraint case? They kind of have a First Amendment fetish, and this case would appeal to that.

    2. There are times, you know, when you ask yourself. You say, “Self, have I debauched myself sufficiently to read Eddie and abortion in the same sentence?”

      *checks drink*

      How you been, Eddie? How’s your holidays?

      1. They’re doing fairly well – how about you?

        1. OK, then, nighty-night, sweet dreams.

          1. Pretty great, actually. I haven’t had to deal with idiot family, the kids’ school parties went off without a hitch and I’m in the home stretch. And I haven’t had to go to a mall once. I have no complaints.

            1. *offers nice, hot glass of gl?gg*

              I knows people!

              1. I see you have booze. I have booze as well. How you doing, Swissy?

    3. “If NAF wins this case, criminals will rejoice and journalists will weep.”

      Someone doesn’t know how arbitrary enforcement works.

  16. Sanders/Clinton cat fight; Clinton favored 7:3:

    “Sanders, Clinton campaigns cry foul after DNC data breach”

    Popcorn and other refreshments available in the lobby.

    1. Bernie’s campaign manager has also raised the specter of Clinton’s campaign stealing *his* data.

      *** munch, munch, munch ***

    2. Oh, and this is rich (same link):

      “Asked what Clinton would like Sanders to do, Fallon encouraged him to “Come clean. Admit wrongdoing. Let’s move on.”

      Clinton, OTOH, is as (snicker) pure (Ha, ha, hahahah!) as the driven snow (Oh, my SIDES!)

      1. Howard Dean says he’d like to see this (the DNC-Sanders kerfuffle) resolved in three hours.


        1. She wants to ‘put it behind her’!

          1. You know what he should ask her, right? RIGHT??

            1. WHAT DIFFERENCE………………
              What do I win?

    3. Let the Clinton and Sanders campaigns hack each other to death.

      *tosses sack of machetes into the arena*

      1. Nice.

        OT: Thank you whoever that was that posted the http://www.apollo17.org/ link. I am sitting here, half…no, mostly drunk listening to the mission I remember seeing on the black and white TV when I was 6 1/2 years old…. Man, have we sunk back into the mire?

        1. That’s pretty awesome, and I’ll have to hit that up..

          If you feel like some tinfoilhat shit:

          Hit here: Software defined radio and tune to 4625 for UVB 76

          madness lies this way.

          1. More shortwave fun: Tune radio above to 6020.00 , hit ‘AM’. It’s Radio Romania.

            1. Sheeit, I used to listen to the North American service of Radio Moscow…in 1983…’cause my German Teacher in HS said..he liked to hear “another perspective”.

              I joined the Illinois National Guard a year and a half later….FOOKIN’ COMMIES.

  17. And NPR commenters are PISSED! One donated $50 to Bernie, since he’s fighting the good fight!

    ” Mike B Mistress of Tech Death ? 6 hours ago
    You said it, now I’ll go and donate $50 to Sanders. ”

    And if he got his way, he wouldn’t need donations; he’d just reach in your pocket and take what he wishes.

  18. What would keep uber/lyft from locking out union members? A union should stand or fall based on economic benefit to its members. For a state to impose unionization is as great a violation as a state preventing it.

    1. I wonder how many ABDA members are legit uber drivers?

      1. After a discussion last week, I got Hoffers’ “True Believers” out for a re-read – been at least 20 years. Not through it yet, but it’s aged well, including a repeated references to the ‘crushing burden of freedom’ for many.
        They are forced to make decisions about what they are going to do and when. Why, they might have to choose from among 23 varieties of deodorant!
        The point being that I’m sure at least some of these drivers took it on and then found out it was up to them to make a living at it or fail. For a certain portion of humanity, that is asking entirely too much; maybe the union reps will tell them when to go to work and relieve them of those decisions.

        1. It’s not so much the union telling them when to work as it is the union telling them when a job is available. If a union member can find work without going through the hall that is entirely acceptable, the list is for those who aren’t finding work. Or that’s how the unions operate where I am anyway.

      2. Since Uber/Lyft hours are flexible, do they vote by how many hours they work a week? Otherwise I see an opportunity for a sudden flood of 1-hour-a-week drivers.

        1. That’s a very good question. If they are contractors rather than 40+ hour a week employees some weight to the number of hours worked seems logical.

      3. I’ll hazard a strong guess…… which I’ll put in round numbers: 000000000.00

  19. A lot of misinformation out there concerning my campaign. I’m here to answer your questions.

    1. OK,

      1) are you with the Sanders campaign, or just yanking our chain?

      1. 2) what is your definition of democratic socialism?

        3) please cite earlier socialists in history who have inspired you.

        1. 4) for the earlier socialists who inspired you, are there specific parts of their ideas with which you disagree?

      2. If we win, we will literally be yanking your chain.

        1. It’s either Bernie on sodium pentathol, or a troll.

          1. Not mutually exclusive.

            1. So,

              5) who was your favorite Spice Girl?

              or given your age, I suppose I should say, who’s your favorite Leave it to Beaver character?

                1. Alexandra Kollentai or Elizabeth Gurley Flynn?

                2. Dillweed.

    2. Walter Block. Still besties?

      1. He’s a good man. I will regret having him exiled.

        1. So, Death Camps for Bernie?

          1. You are on fire tonight, broseph.

    3. “A lot of misinformation out there concerning my campaign. I’m here to answer your questions.”

      Shouldn’t this be “Ask a Socialist”?

      1. Shouldn’t this be “Ask a Socialist”?

        Poll Pot?

        1. Man, I’m too short. The good ones go right over my head!

    4. What happens when you run out of other peoples money?

  20. This chat room sucks.

    1. Are you a Millennial?

      1. What are you wearing?

        1. A cape made from the skins of my enemies of course.

      2. Poll ’em and find out.

        1. Now, that’s what I’m talking about.

  21. Why isn’t this my shower curtain?

    1. Why do I keep clicking on your links?

        1. I, for one, applaud your selection. I wish I had half his medals…and half as good a ‘stache.

    2. Because you don’t deserve it. You haven’t EARNED it.

    3. Oh, crusty? I saw this mention of a Sex Crime in the daily news, and immediately thought of you…

      and i know you would, because i would. I mean, who wouldn’t? also she probably has a luscious Louisiana accent, and you already know how to pronounce her name because you saw Shawshank Redemption.

        1. I brought my pencil!


      1. I clicked on the link and thought about the last name before I saw that you mentioned that movie. Andy’s has good genes.

        She is of better quality when compared to this lady, who’s story was on your link.

        From that story:

        Hinckley, who is married, is believed to be pregnant with a child expected to be born around nine months after her alleged affair

        The teen told special victims unit detectives that Hinckley taught him in English class, flirted with him and let a different student “tickle” her, according to arresting documents cited by the Times-Union. A teacher who heard students talking about Hinckley and her student’s affair first alerted the authorities.

        Investigators said the teen victim and Hinckley exchanged nude photos of each other and then had unprotected sex in the back of a car parked in St. Augustine’s Treaty Park on Aug. 18.

        1. Maybe I should go to hell, but I’m doin’ well, teacher needs to see me after school

    4. If I had imagined a Tom Selleck shower curtain, it wouldn’t look half as classy and tasteful. It’s surprising.

  22. Papaya linked this in the PM links:

  23. So there goes one of those sparkly LIBERTARIAN MOMENT unicorns much heralded by this site, riding off into the sunset and never to be seen again.

    Or shot in the head by a union mobster left to bleed out in the forest, more like.

    What’s next, fair trade ass sex and unionized drugs?!

    1. “I’m sure you’d like Candi, sir, but Bertha here has seniority.”

      /punch line to my favorite dirty joke

      1. “How many Libertarians does it take to screw in a light bulb?”

        1. to screw in a light bulb?

          That’s not funny!

          1. Harder than getting in a coffee cup…

          2. Did you just compare libertarians to feminists? Libertarians have sense of humor! Very nerdy sense of humor.

            Q: How many Corellians does it take to change a glowpanel?
            A: None, if the room’s dark, then you can’t see them cheat at sabacc.

            1. How many Ferengi can you fit in a VW?

    2. “Unionized drugs”

      Be better off letting the Cartels keep running that business.

    3. Nick and his minions conflate the LIBERTARIAN MOMENT with the ‘I no longer give a fuck moment’. Much of what has been ‘accomplished’ in the past decade can be attributed to the ‘leave me the fuck alone’ caucus. Nick, and fellow travelers, confuse that with actual substantive agreement on the merits.

      1. There’s a lot of people who think the corporations control the government and we need a law, or more reforms or something. So they answer questions about trusting the government as “hell no” and Nick thinks they’re libertarians.

  24. Crybullies looking for justice!

    Summary: Landlord evicts tenants from rent-controlled building and then turns around and places units on Air BnB.

    The tenants were paying less than 2000 a month, they claim the landlord can get 15K a month from Air BnB in a month. Now the scuzz-buckets are suing.

    So what they’re saying is that the landlord is somehow obligated to take a potential 13K a month loss to make sure their special snowflake asses can live cheap. They want to enslave him to the tune of 13 grand a month.

    Worthless fucks.

    1. In SF, older residential units are worth far more empty than rented; rent control does that.
      In the block where we live, (and I don’t know the circumstances of some of the buildings), at least 16 units which were rentals are now TICs, Condos or converted back to single-family homes, and most of these conversions by those who profess to be ‘liberals’ and support rent control. For others, it seems.

    2. Can’t these guys and gals live somewhere else with lower rent? Why do they have to live in New York?

      1. You mean Los Angeles?

    3. They want to enslave him to the tune of 13 grand a month.

      Putting aside the injustice that a lease apparently means nothing contract-wise, the landlord seems to have clearly broken the law that is on the books. If they don’t like that, change the law.

  25. If I was the fluttering hummingbird wings of let/s say the odd Friday evening on a svelte web site supposedly managed with the long sharp ninja cock called the N Gillespie wizard Reason swords wisdom why the FUCK would Uber be your topic to flagellate into the airy canyons of these weekens, Nick? Why. Fuck you, G.

    1. Need a ride, Cy?

      1. I ride my Parallel Univerxes on Golden Ponies, Q. Can you ride a Golden Poney, Q? And my Golden Ponies LOVE flapping their wings directly into the rays of the moon, dear.

        1. And their poop threatens the Earthbound with their decaying orbits, spattering into fire.

  26. FUCKING tired of people who drive cars for ponderous shitty politics. I fucking HATE the engine screams of hellacious engine tapping fucking demon ass fuckers who drive shit.

    Just DRIVE US!!! Get your goddamn crap figured out but don’t hurt me while I eat cocaine out of a hamster butt in the back of your ZvW, BITCH!!

  27. Freedom is ending, boys.
    Uber is NOT freedom exactos.
    Uber is a fucking apartment full of geeks figuring out how to get laid with their million dollar app and the nucleus bomb of followers that will occur because they are all so fucking hungry they can’t eat and shit/

    Praise geek bruv.

    I guess that shit is awesome. LIKE SUPER FUCKING AWESOME< l.i.b.e.r.t.y. lovers

  28. Evening, Agile. I’m seeking your advice. The only lubricant I find acceptable for masturbation is my own ejaculate. You can see the paradox. Any advice?

    1. Well, I certainly can’t speak for Agile Cyborg (pbuh), but perhaps this might help.

      1. Now that would make a nice shower curtain.

    2. I don’t understand the question. The blood of your enemies, natch. Is there something else y’all are using?

  29. App gens falls the wings, bruv. apps be demands the loves. apps of the rays pitch the eye casters.
    and the eye casters look to the flames and the clouds sweep down and these clouds bring the strings and arrangements
    and the boxes of openings
    and apps box for the rest of the caves
    guess the wide spaces of us scream for all these shitty assholes an their
    codes but agile would like to pile all the assholes in L.A. into a tiny toilet and punch them into the next parallel universe because because they are strictly ruining the mind of intelligence of what is called the
    manger of the mind where the clouds of the lops

  30. The young dragon above sought the advices of the whispers I have this thing for his cock.

    In the winds of the night when her legs are spread under the light of the moon and her shirt is hastily tucked under her glorrious nipples plumping them into dream sploodges and the giant cacophony of aucostic cock slinks over her with the shadows dreamily slurpping on the walls left and right and she is lost in the dimensions of the rivers of my eyes drowning her with love and fucking passion I nick the lid off Aloe Cadabra and place a tiny bit on the cock of my massive love and under the syrup of the moons of lust I slip my glistening fat cock into her like a pop.. man Aloe cadabra is my go to because I have a big fucking cock and the magic of the

    1. glistening keys allows my FUCKING FAT COCK TO SLIP DEEP WITHIN HER and i thrust like a sweet lovely energy of the lust worlds like all the standing planets got naked and wanted to fuck her and became me.. like I am ALL the goddamn planets of the places we dream about and all those dreams twisted into a tangled mess of lust and poured all into my cock that I penetrate her with and she moans and reaches out and moans an her body grows tense under the synergy of our love and peneatrations and she whispers in my heart with her tits and her ass is grabbed by my mind and my hands raise their hands to the universe as she clutches the wings of my spaces and my minds collapse into her and she encloses me like a letter as she spills her cum into mine…. and space slipped silently away

  31. so bruvs my fav cock grease is NOT fucking mainstream SHIT… in case you fuckers might wonder… Peppermint tingle by Aloe Cadabra… Take it from a male slut… Her pussy feels like spring and shooting violets when you penetrate her and the slut starts getting nasty and If you want to pretend to be a rich oil driller= guess what?… you can… her fucking legs will spread so wide your cock will become the footprints of your entire body and smash the fuck out of her and she will wail like a thousand angels lost in the deepest plutonium minds.

  32. What is the purpose of Libertarians? Man. Why do we exist? I guess the CNN fucks would love it if we were all killed or beheaded by Saudi purpose and maybe this is our future. We all die. Fall into the abyss of the thought holocaust. Humans have proven that outsiders can be tortured and delivered into the mighty furnaces of hell.

    Will we live to survive the future, man?
    Will the ever fucking awful place of the out there support the minds of this magnificent village?
    I love every single one of you. And I want nothing to happen to you in the event that the future fucks us up the ass.

  33. The inner mind of the depth thinker casts about like the whispers of the clouds, man.
    and the outer mind of the deep thinker seeks to conform to the edges of the corners where we walk the dogs and dragons.

    WHAT is the manifestation of FREEDOM?
    I guess this site is managed by billionaire capitalists…. I think capitalism is fine until it becomes nuclear.
    I think the nature of politics is fine until it becomes avenging or captive ideal.

    HOW do we manage Freedom on a space, bros.

    I want to be free to FUCK, THINK, LOVE, and LIVE whatever the FUCK I want to.

    That last line…. If the entire planet embraced it…. wars would be unnecessary….

    Let me FUCK, THINK, LOVE, and LIVE whatever the FUCK…

    I want this for my Reason bros and couple sistas

  34. And that’s that.

    All I know is this can’t end well.

  35. I would love to see the planet never see another dictator and what is interesting is….

    Dictators are TINY in number while the rest of us are HUGE, bro.

    In Saudi Arabis where they kill boys for protesting nothing. The Kings and Princes live in shallow castles, man.

    Sad thing is masses of humans are frogs and simple except for a tiny majority.

    MOST collectives can be managed.

    BUT, why? WHY be managed? I’d FUCKING rather die unto freedom period…. Fuck it… the dark rainbows could challenge my heart….

    step back. think…. Here in America…. but out there? i cannot speak for the lost soul

  36. when you walk into the gloom
    of the hallways of lights, man
    the shiny streets of the brands
    and their lights
    bro, I suggest you JUST FUCKING
    and just FUCKING be your goddamn self.
    Sensitive, caring, loving, and supportive…

    And when she enjoys the kitchen of your home don’t play shit she hates

    YOU are never relevant at any point in the pussy seeking venture because, you, sir, are usually a total FUCKING asshole an THAT is WHY I AM HERE to STOP THIS SHIT.

    IF you WISH to FUCK Pussy STOP being YOU… HANG yourself and kill it on the outside of the date. Basically, die.
    And then resurrect as a nice person because all of us dudes are fucking like agile cyborg… HORRIBLE FUCKING SHITS… never date a woman as me and you.

    so. kill yourself and resurrect as a sweet jesus or lovely male whale or male super duper shit whatever..

    just be intelligent. NOT stupid. Women love intelligent alleyways. and shit.

  37. Most dudes get sucky dates because women have a built in asshole registry like your motherfucking windows pc, bitch.

    Don’t get on that registry.

    1. You were sworn to keep that secret, brah.

    2. explains why women crash all the time.

      anyone else ready to murder windows10? “0xc000021a? No, FUCK YOU!”

  38. BROTHERS, if you want PUSSY…

    Be clean, Be yourself, Be loving, Be NON self centered.

    DO NOT be an asshole…

    Be cozy and soft

    be there for her songs and angst and be upfront about your everything…
    never lie to her

    I don’t and she and I have been married for 22 years and we fuck lovers….

    Grow as a man. Strive to be the tallest man you’ve ever met and never stop reading Bertran Russell. Ever.
    Bertrand Russell is the best male highest IQ bitch even above Nietzsche/.

    1. Don’t invest too much in B. Russell…. http://www.bookrags.com/studyg…..#gsc.tab=0

      1. Fuck Swiss.

        Swiss is a bitch ass alien twerker.

        I love him but Swiss is fucked up….

  39. I got my wife 2 CDs of Sturgill Simpson…’cause she likes country. WINNING#!

    Sometimes I do the right thing.

    And now, back to this Ballast Point “Calm Before the Storm”. Yum.

  40. The past and now and future struggles with alternative lovers… agile doesn’t care…. about this struggle… Works for me becuase bae sends me pics of her pussy fucked by tall wall street dick and I send her pics of my tripping pussy works
    and we will die together forever…

    First marriage-only marriage- old school marriage- end of rainbow marriage… where the dust falls off the end of the living and reaching and Agile Cyborg at FUCKING GODDAMN 99 will STILL FUCKING BE ROLLING fucking cocaine off the tailbones of his slut lovers!! HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAH

  41. I wish I could hand Agile a bottle of Dalwhinnie 15 year old single malt whisky.

    1. I wish to kiss you on the lips and bend you over my FUCKING KNEES and spank the naked pink curves of your lovely ass….

      And afterward offer my lovely friend a very strong blunt… and a light salad and a lovely Ohio high night under the odd linings of an Oaken moon.

      1. Great response, or greatest response ever?

  42. This didn’t get much attention, since the victim was white, but here in Missouri a cop was finally charged in the drowning death of a handcuffed arrestee who fell off the boat. Only manslaughter, but still, something.

    I’d give an url, but it’s too long to be accepted.

    1. [a href=”https:// http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1qZpoyYcgk“]This is how you hyperlink.[/a href]

      Replace the brackets with greater than/less than.

      We did see that. It was brought up in the PM links. Since it took more than a year and a half to get charges, and only with agitation from the family, I expect we’ll get an article out of this one tomorrow or the next. It’s right up our usual alley.

      1. I’ve had good luck just deleting the “s” from “https” when I get that stupid “too long” error message. The link still works, but no error message.

    2. You know what else was too long to be accepted?

      1. Extended edition LotR marathon?

      2. Coverage of trump.
        Coverage of Star Wars.
        Coverage of Millennials.

  43. And once again, it’s time for Troll Appreciation Saturday.

    One of the Jonas Brothers is also a gourmand

    “Tomorrow I fly to Chicago for another show and more fried food. I’m definitely going to get some deep-dish pizza.”

    1. “”We don’t want to turn Hungary into a futureless society of man-hating women and woman-fearing, feminine men who only see children and families as an obstacle to self-fulfilment,” he said to wild applause.”

      Interesting. A country with an extensive history of experience with useful idiots has had enough of their shit. There is hope after all.

      1. Asked what his problem was with gender equality, Kovacs said:

        “It leads to there being female weightlifting, to put it in stark terms. Who benefits, I don’t know and I would not want to say. I don’t like that.”
        I can see he has put a great deal of thought into this. Truly, a serious and thought-provoking commentary. A breath of fresh air from all the emoting and “me me me!”ism going on.

        1. *edits*

          Asked what his problem was with gender equality, Kovacs said:

          “It leads to there being female weightlifting, to put it in stark terms. Who benefits, I don’t know and I would not want to say. I don’t like that.”

          I can see he has put a great deal of thought into this. Truly, a serious and thought-provoking commentary. A breath of fresh air from all the emoting and “me me me!”ism going on.

  44. I bet what they do is give Uber drivers the power to “delete” bad reviews, the same way Yelp lets restaurants hide negative reviews, for a price. (Of course Yelp insists they don’t do this, it’s just that what they do is make the reviews nearly invisible, there is a tiny non-bolded link at the bottom that lets you see ALL the reviews including the hidden ones).

    So the unions will lobby for a mandate that Uber has to give the driver some sort of means to delete the negative reviews and they will make sure it means that the union drivers ratings never fall below the 4-star threshold.

    1. I wonder if Uber has the balls to do what Walmart does, and just shut down any location or area that gets unionized.

      1. I saw a note by one of the companies which warned riders that the the drivers were now prohibited from driving across the ‘border’; union drivers could not drive in non-union areas and vice versa.
        Is Seatac *in* Seattle?

        1. No. SeaTac is a town south of seattle.

    2. On the other side, yelp will delete or hide good reviews of you don’t pay. They hold plenty of businesses hostage.

      1. They have some formula that determines which reviews are shown by default. The restaurant can then pay to either have bad reviews moved into the hidden section or good reviews moved up into the “featured” section.

  45. If the “union” engages in any activity that involves pricing or limits supply of service, it is pretty much a per se conspiracy in restraint of trade.

    From justice.gov website:

    Per Se Rule: Price fixing and bid rigging are among the group of antitrust offenses that are considered per se unreasonable restraints of trade. The courts have reasoned that these practices, which invariably have the effect of raising prices to consumers, have no legitimate justification and lack any redeeming competitive purpose and should, therefore, be considered unlawful without any further analysis of their reasonableness, economic justification, or other factors.

    If the union confines itself to those of an ordinary trade association, it might be okay. I rather doubt, however, that is the intention of the organizers.

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