The United States of Corporate Welfare

Which company got the most targeted tax breaks, subsidies, and grants in the state where you live?

reason infographic

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For Good Jobs First's subsidy tracker, go here.

For Reason on crony capitalism, go here.

For Reason on corporate welfare, go here.

Comments

[CatoTheElder]

The Stossel comment is not quite right: the biggest recipient group of handouts is geezers.

[Hyperion]

Are you subtracting the money the geezers payed into the system for those handouts?

[Hugh Akston]

Why would he? Getting robbed doesn't give you the right to rob someone else.

[Col. R C Dean]

That money done been spent already, Hyperion. Unless you are netting out the taxes they pay this year against the checks they cash this year, that is.

[bassjoe]

Interesting that a defense contractor is still the biggest recipient of state subsidies in CA.

[Puddin' Stick]

CA is desperate to keep their aviation industry.

[Episiarch]

But...but...libertarians are all about corporations and giving them more power! Right?

[Swiss Servator... Switzy!]

How could we not - look at my state - IL. The handouts are obviously the key to Sears' ongoing growth and success!!!!!

http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/SHLD/tab/2

[EdWuncler]

I hate Illinois so much.

[EdWuncler]

I hate Illinois so much.

[Bobarian (hyphenated-american)]

A hate so big, you have to say it twice?

[AlmightyJB]

Illinois nazis are the worst

[Swiss Servator... Switzy!]

IL Democrats and Republicans are nae so guid, either.

[Walter Peck]

Illinazis

[Peachy rex]

I mean, seriously - Sears? SEARS?!? If we're going to waste my tax dollars on cronyism, could we at least pick a competent company?

Jesus Christ. Sears.

[Citizen Nothing]

The sad part: It all went to maintenance agreements.

[Puddin' Stick]

Not Jesus Christ Penney's?

[Jimbo]

It is pathetic. I suggest suicide.
However, my pathetic state, the largest in population (!) isn't number 1 in total dollars flushed down the toilet/money hole?

[kinnath]

Never heard of the company listed for Iowa. So 250M in tax credits and abatements to build a 1.4B dollar fertilizer plant.

[Shrug]

And now Des Moines is suing 3 northwest Iowa counties for fertilizer nitrates that end up flowing downstream to the water treatment plant.

[Vapourwear]

Aren't there like, five counties In Iowa?

[Rhywun]

I see a lot of car companies in the "right to work" states. So I guess being free from union meddling isn't the only reason to stick around.

[bassjoe]

I would bet the subsidies were the #1 consideration...by a lot.

[Fist of Etiquette]

This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.

[HeteroPatriarch]

Colorado's is a fucking luxury resort operator? Why? CO has the fucking mountains, it's not like they can just move their hotels out to Nebraska and stay in business.

[Episiarch]

Crony-feeding governments aren't exactly the best at seeing when they have the advantage. They're economically retarded.

[Col. R C Dean]

Pish. Its the circle of crony. The pols give money to cronies, the cronies give money to pols. Everybody (who matters) wins!

[Lady Bertrum]

+1 Simba agrees.

[Puddin' Stick]

HeteroPatriarch,
If you don't like sending me monthly checks, I'm sure your primary or general election opponent would appreciate some campaign donations?

Love,
Starwood Resorts

[Swiss Servator... Switzy!]

Holy shit! Puddin' has intercepted the mail!

[Old Man With Candy]

Wait, not Walmart? How much did the Kochs pay you to not mention them?

[Hyperion]

There would be no one here without our monthly Koch paychecks.

[Old Man With Candy]

I get paid directly by the Elders of Zion.

[Swiss Servator... Switzy!]

Cut out the Middle Man, eh? I am on the payroll of the Gnomes of Zurich - I get paid in cheese and stolen war gold!

[Restoras]

And Riiiiicooooolaaaaa, right?

[Old Man With Candy]

Cuckoo clocks. The bastard.

[Swiss Servator... Switzy!]

Cuckoo clocks, humph! That is for unwary tourists in the Black Forest in Germany.

I prefer batons kirsch and hideously expensive watches! And the stolen war gold...

*rubs hands together evilly*

[Heroic Mulatto]

I get paid directly by the Elders of Zion

Chocolate Chanukkah gelt doesn't count!

[trshmnster the terrible]

The lizard people let me sun on their home planet on occasion. In return, I make some comments.

[Sevo]

Old Man With Candy|3.11.15 @ 2:15PM|#
"Wait, not Walmart? How much did the Kochs pay you to not mention them?"

And Koch Industries gets no vig? Why, how can that be? They've bought every election for the last eleventy-seven years!

[Mad Scientist]

DirecTV in Montana? Isn't a state with a mostly rural population their prime market?

[Puddin' Stick]

Gotta keep Dish out?

[Migrant Log Picker]

Big call center in Missoula.

[Puddin' Stick]

The subsidies are to keep it from moving to Bangalore or Monterey?

[Bobarian (hyphenated-american)]

Not for nothing, but Tax Breaks aren't in the same ball park as 'real' subsidies. Letting companies keep money they made, usually in the early years, is not the same as giving them extra money.

Often times companies don't really have a lot of taxable profit has they're getting set up, so the tax break aren't really as much as claimed. Meanwhile, the state is benifitting from potentially thousands of people getting good wages and collecting income and/or sales taxes from those folks.

[kinnath]

the state is benifitting from potentially thousands of people getting good wages and collecting income and/or sales taxes from those folks

That is the argument. Sometimes it's true; sometimes it's not.

[Loki]

If tax breaks are good for startups they should be good for everyone. Make the tax breaks across the board as opposed to targeted tax breaks intended to only benefit certain businesses and I doubt any libertarians will object. It's the targeted nature of some tax breaks that look like cronyism.

[Bobarian (hyphenated-american)]

Absolutely, but even targeted crony tax breaks are just a tiny drop of evil compared to, say, giving Solyndra a $150M grant to go out of business.

[Loki]

True, it is the lesser evil. I suppose that's really all we can ever hope for.

[kinnath]

When a rural or semi-rural state or county tells a business they won't have to pay taxes for 20 years if they build a new business there, they are hoping that the secondary effects of the business will produce enough revenue to cover the tax break. In general, this is a bad idea, but there is a rational concept at work.

When a major metropolitan area agrees to condemn vast swathes of existing mixed development then sell the land at a huge discount to a big business (or owner of a sports team) and then provide additional tax breaks, they are really fucking over the people that already live and work in the condemned area. And these deals never pay for themselves. Ever.

Some subsidies are more evil than others.

[Puddin' Stick]

The multipliers! The multipliers!

The multipliers will invoke the animals spirits and redeem the economy!

(Who says Voodoo Economics isn't dead!)

[Cdr Lytton]

When those tax breaks expire, the company usually goes back and demands more or they pull up stakes. Given they have the political pull in the first place, they usually get it. Or modify whatever agreement was made if they don't meet the terms (say x amount of employment in y years).

[Res ipsa loquitur]

Sounds good to me.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

"Meanwhile, the state is benifitting from potentially thousands of people getting good wages and collecting income and/or sales taxes from those folks."

Are you running for the New London Town council?

[Swiss Servator... Switzy!]

WV's did make me laugh - a sporting goods store...

[Raston Bot]

Speaking of Cabela's, they must've had a big xmas sale b/c lately I've seen entire families (kids too) out and about covered head to toe in real tree and mossy oak.

[Swiss Servator... Switzy!]

The Camo Family!

[Almanian!]

We call them "bitter clingers" round these parts...

/Obama

[Puddin' Stick]

A few years ago, 150% of Cabela's profit was due to subsidies?

[dannye]

I work at Intel in Oregon. AFAIK the biggest "tax break" involve the state government promising not to assess the fab (factory) property values with the billion dollar machines inside, which would result in all the fabs tallying a worth north of $20 billion a year by my estimate, along with a large tax bill. The only case that I am know of actual taxpayer money being "given" to Intel is the cheap sale of land to build said fabs. It is hardly fair to compare Intel to GM, Lockheed, et al.

Oregon state government is greedy as fuck, I honestly doubt they'll actually give money to anyone, even to the state's biggest private employer. They told Phil Knight of Nike to fuck off when he bitched about the last state income tax hike.

[Episiarch]

Maybe he should move to WA and avoid the income tax.

[Pro Libertate]

Or Florida where he can avoid the income tax and see the sun. Remember it?

[Episiarch]

You seem to forget that WA summers are pure sun. I've seen 89 days straight with no rain (or almost any clouds) before in the summer. Of course that leads to lots of forest fires, but that isn't my problem.

[Swiss Servator... Switzy!]

PROBLEM FOR STEVE SMITH! NO HIKERS WHEN FIRES!!!!

[SugarFree]

STEVE SMITH LIKE COOKED HIKERS. FOR ROUGHAGE AND VARIETY.

[Pro Libertate]

Yes, I know you have your pittance of sun. . .sometimes. That's not even every summer. Which is why suicide rates are so high in the Northwest. But you go ahead and keep defying Sol in your northern latitudes.

[Episiarch]

Oh yeah? Well enjoy your 5PM downpour every day and the subsequent humidity explosion as it evaporates!

Oh wait that's southern Florida.

[Pro Libertate]

Yeah, a few minutes of rain, followed and preceded by hours of sun. And bikinis.

[Episiarch]

And your mom. Don't forget that.

[Xeones]

He mentioned the bikinis.

[Bobarian (hyphenated-american)]

A mumu is not the same as a bikini.

[Pro Libertate]

Has your volcano killed you yet? Really, is it wrong for me to be okay with Washington sliding into the ocean in a giant mudslide if it rids me of a turbulent commenter? I need a ethics ruling here.

[Episiarch]

"Will no one rid me of this tumescent...I mean turbulent commenter?!?"

[Swiss Servator... Switzy!]

"Will no one natural disaster rid me of this troublesome priest commenter!"

[Swiss Servator... Switzy!]

Damn your speedy fingers, Epi!!!

[Mad Scientist]

Actions performed by the volcano are non-ethical, so cheering for those actions is perfectly OK.

[Pro Libertate]

Ah, thank you. Now my conscience is at peace with my desire for his fiery exit from this plane of existence. Good-bye, Mr. Episiarch.

[Warty]

Wait a minute. Are you trying to tell me that Epi is Tom Hanks?

[Episiarch]

How DARE you!!!

[Pro Libertate]

Well, a variation on that theme. Maybe more Jimmy Stewart?

[Bobarian (hyphenated-american)]

Feeding virgins to Pele to speed the coming apocalypse may violate the NAP, however.

[antisocial-ist]

But, but virgins are denying people access to pussy.

[Pro Libertate]

Is he a god of volcanoes as well as of soccer?

[kinnath]

89 days with no rain. That's chicken shit.

When I lived in phoenix we got 5 or 6 days when it rained. So 340 days of sun and a few cloudy days for good measure.

Of course, the pollution sucked; and the traffic sucked; and the crime sucked; but overall it was a not terrible place to live.

[Bobarian (hyphenated-american)]

My experience is that it does not rain in Phoenix, it... deluges? pours? Comes down like a cow pissing on a flat rock?

[Gilbert Martin]

Texas has no state income tax either.

Neither does Wyoming

[dannye]

Doesn't work. People have tried.

If you live in WA and work in OR, the OR state government will track you down and steal the pound of flesh.

[Bobarian (hyphenated-american)]

The trick, as I understand it, is live and work in WA, shop in OR.

[Brett L]

Berkshire Hathaway? But I was assured that Warren Buffett was one of the "good" billionaires! Also, why do realtors need tax breaks? There aren't enough of the already?

[Hyperion]

I was assured that Warren Buffett was one of the "good" billionaires!

Never listen to what Shreek says.

[Puddin' Stick]

Berkshire-Hathaway is also in there somewhat (4.2% ownership) for Montana?

[Raston Bot]

A hunting gear retailer in WV. Oh man that's priceless.

[diane.dallen]

my classmate's ex-wife makes $60 /hr on the internet . She has been unemployed for 9 months but last month her payment was $20806 just working on the internet for a few hours. hop over to this web-site..........

????? http://www.netjob70.com

[Timon 19]

Fiat? Why??

[Brett L]

If they sent the angry model from the Super Bowl commercial to,uh, "lobby" me, I'd vote for just about anything.

[Brett L]

Lots of local work for mechanics with more Fiats on the road.

[Warty]

You know what Fiat stands for? Found On Road Dead.

[Mad Scientist]

No, you dope, it's Dead On Day Guarantee Expires.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

You idiots, it's "Please Leave Your Money Out Under The Hood"

[Sudden]

No it's "Poor Old (this portion has been redacted in accordance with the Thoughtcrime Act of 2015) Think It's A Cadillac"

And with that my chances of ever going to grad school are shot....

[Jason Keisling]

Fixed or repaired daily

[NidhoggRocketman]

+1 Dale Gribble

[Swiss Servator... Switzy!]

"Fix It Again, Tony!"

[Homple]

No, the acronym stands for "Fix it again, Tony".

[Homple]

Crap, beaten by a Swiss.

[Swiss Servator... Switzy!]

Ha I beat Y?!

[Sudden]

Francly, we get it already.

[Rhywun]

Chr?terchraft strikes again.

[Bobarian (hyphenated-american)]

Feeble Italian Attempt at Transportation

Fucking Idiot Assembled This

Fix It All the Time

[Sevo]

Why do Fiat owners own two Fiats?
One to drive and one for parts.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Because somebody has to love the unlovable.

[ColonelEngineer]

Fiat bought Chrysler

[Almanian!]

No, no - Fiat basically was GIVEN Chrysler.

[Bobarian (hyphenated-american)]

Nobody else wanted to take it.

[diane.dallen]

my classmate's ex-wife makes $60 /hr on the internet . She has been unemployed for 9 months but last month her payment was $20806 just working on the internet for a few hours. hop over to this web-site..........

????? http://www.netjob70.com

[Sevo]

She get a tax break to move to a new state?

[Xeones]

Yeah, but she's working almost 90 hours a week.

[Almanian!]

Ima just finally say this - I work at Ford, and FUCK GM AND CHRYSLER. And Toyota.

I like the Honda guys - they're cool. And the Jag guys were pretty OK when we owned them. Volvo - not so much.

One more time - FUCK GM AND CHRYSLER. And Toyota. Honda's OK. I own one of their bikes...

[Bo Cara Esq.]

What, no one's worked out how this is really the fault of a, unions, b. Pubsec unions c. feminists or just d. 'Progs' yet?

Is Scott Walker on tv or something?

[See Double You]

Bo, even I'm getting annoyed with this schtick. Cut it out, already.

[Citizen Nothing]

Ditto.

[Irish]

It's hilarious. Bo claims we always attack progs and never attack conservatives, which is why he steadfastly avoided the article about Tom Cotton being a shithead. Then when an article is posted where the comments directly contradict what Bo says about us, he petulantly feigns surprise that we aren't doing what he is oh so certain we 'always' do.

He basically avoids all the articles that contradict his dipshit thesis and then basis his claims about us on his own studied avoidance of contradicting evidence.

[Restoras]

SOP for Bo.

[Timon 19]

So what finally broke Bo? It couldn't have been the Hillary e-mail arguments he eventually slinked out of without a trace...seems a weak way to go. Must have been something else.

[Irish]

He started losing his mind regarding Walker's college degree and it's been a slow descent into early senility ever since.

He finally went nuts for good yesterday and is no longer capable of going more than 10 minutes without shrieking about our secret conservatism while also declaring us an Outraged White Man Brigade.

It's really been sad to watch.

[Timon 19]

Fascinating.

[Episiarch]

Sad? It's fucking hilarious, dude. I haven't blocked him just so I can watch the retardation unfold. I fucking love it.

[Irish]

Is it just me, or do we have a tendency to literally break people? I feel like we drove Tony crazy too, because he's definitely gotten nuttier with time.

[Mad Scientist]

Tony was crazy before he ever came here. We force people to argue with first principles quite often. The crazy ones can't tolerate that, the facade cracks, and out pours the crazy.

[Episiarch]

People who take themselves too seriously, or who have no sense of humor, or who expect some sort of respect without earning it, do not fare well here. See: Tulpa, Bo, joe, etc.

Also being socially retarded, as all of those examples are, doesn't help either.

[Citizen Nothing]

or who expect some sort of respect.

You probably should just have ended the sentence there.

[Episiarch]

SHUT THE FUCK UP DONNY

Like Rodney Dangerfield, we get no respect. And we don't want any.

[tarran]

Is it just me, or do we have a tendency to literally break people?

Yes we do.

This is literally one of the meanest places on the Internet to say something stupid.

Whenever we say something retarded, the others jump on us. Sometimes it's a quick smack on the bottom like a dom gives a sub to let her know he cares.

Other times it's a mobbing curb stomping that leaves lumps of flesh, bone & teeth in a pool of blood.

And people who can't handle being shown to be wrong and lack the maturity to not pick fights that they might not win inevitably find themselves in a confrontation where they have to admit that they were being an idiot or go full troll.

[Lady Bertrum]

I disagree.

This place is tame compared to the vicious pettiness I've seen on a board dedicated to classical home education I used to frequent. Mostly homeschooling moms. Bitches would gouge your eyes out for using neoclassical curriculum.

[antisocial-ist]

"This is literally one of the meanest places on the Internet to say something stupid."

And I wouldn't have it any other way. This is how ideas and philosophies get tested and improve over time. If you're ideas can't stand up to scrutiny, tough shit.

Also, I'm pretty sure this is how the founding fathers refined their ideas. At least, that's what I heard from the half-breed son of a squaw who was raised on Ho cakes.

[Timon 19]

Speaking of, he's been pretty scarce since the Hillary thing got semi-serious.

[Timon 19]

Tony, that is.

[tarran]

Bo, even I'm getting annoyed with this schtick. Cut it out, already.

? If you ignore him or block him, he can't annoy you... ?

[wwhorton]

Bo jumped the shark a couple months ago for me. It's just sad, now, like watching an old stripper.

[Warty]

Now, children, what do we do with trolls? That's right, nothing. NOTHING.

[Mad Scientist]

I keep my trolls filtered, for just such an occasion.

[Episiarch]

You're a troll! Uh...a towel! Yeah!

[SugarFree]

You are basically the Scut Farkus of STDs.

[Episiarch]

You fucking asshole...I hate that movie!

Interestingly, though, he is supposedly the inspiration for Scott Tenorman. Wait, did you just accuse me of eating my parents? Or their STDs?

[SugarFree]

Yes.

[Pro Libertate]

You hate that movie? Now I know why you suck.

[Episiarch]

No, no, ProL, your mom does the sucking. You should know that, I've sent you the videos. Didn't you watch them?

[Pro Libertate]

I hope Darren McGavin's ghost haunts you on a fortnightly basis/

[Warty]

The Christmas Story museum is surprisingly fun. There, I said it.

[Episiarch]

CLEVELAND DORK ALERT

[EdWuncler]

When I went with my girlfriend to see her family at Christmas, we went to that museum. It was fucking awesome.

[Bobarian (hyphenated-american)]

Worst. character. ever.

[Episiarch]

I know.

[Almanian!]

You wanna get high?

[Episiarch]

Yes. Yes I do. But I have work to do.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

This message brought to you by the Online Weightlifting Bragging Association. How much ya squat?

[SugarFree]

He's just getting lazy about it too. I mean the post right above yours is just feeble, like a two-year-old running around going "Poop! Poop! Poop!" so his parents will pay attention.

[Restoras]

There is a lot of that as well.

[Flaming Ballsack]

it's futile libertarians are the easiest people to troll on the internet combine missionary zeal a sense of preadolescant entitlement and a total lack of self-awareness or irony (see all the times youve invoked dunning kruger effect) and you get people who are easy pickings for trolls

[Flaming Ballsack]

and the firs thing youre going to do is say "geez you just decribed progs prefectly' so add predictability to the list of weaknesses

[Bobarian (hyphenated-american)]

Dude, ever heard of puncuation?

[Warty]

WHAT do we do with trolls?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Yeah, Bobabarian, don't make Warty blow his whistle!

[Flaming Ballsack]

lets see bad punctuation or worshipping the ravings of a russian psychopath (and denying that you do when it becomes inconvenient. hmm which is worse?

[Flaming Ballsack]

i meant ayn rand so knock off the "i know progs worship stalin" gag' something that obvious is beneath even you guys

[Episiarch]

This is the true Tulpa. It's so...honest to himself.

[Warty]

Maybe. I'm not convinced that he'd try even this much to disguise himself.

[Flaming Ballsack]

the only thing more wrong that that statenent is your philosophy

[Pro Libertate]

Look, apes don't read philosophy.

[Episiarch]

Yes they do, ProL. They just don't understand it.

[Warty]

Yes, they do. They just don't understand it.

[SugarFree]

Warty, Epi, you have my old email. Sent me a note off the board and I'll tell you what's going on here.

[Episiarch]

Done.

[Pro Libertate]

I don't remember that line from A Fish Called Wanda. Do you have a special edition DVD of some sort?

[Warty]

Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes. I looked them up.

[Warty]

Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes. I looked them up.

[Pro Libertate]

Ladies and gentlemen, the Lady Haden-Guest.

[Warty]

Only if you promise to include a fresh dick pic. The ones I have are stale.

[SugarFree]

It's all knobby now, like a gnarled wizard's staff.

[Episiarch]

How is that different than before?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

You guys try way too hard.

[Mad Scientist]

Even more knobs.

[Bobarian (hyphenated-american)]

It is not the pictures that are stale.

[wwhorton]

What's worse? I'll take "Not closing your parentheses" for $1000, Alex.

[SugarFree]

Fuck off, Tulpa. You already outted your pathetic troll handle a few weeks ago.

You are such a cowardly little turd.

[SugarFree]

You know what, I apologize, Tulpa. It looks like another deranged idiot tried to blame his (or her) trolling on you.

[Flaming Ballsack]

hey im just a nice guy i didnt blame anyone for my posts

[SugarFree]

Fuck off, cunt.

[Old Man With Candy]

They need sympathy and encouragement to seek treatment. Surely a monster of your size with a barbed penis can find it in his heart to be supportive?

[Brett L]

Only until the barb tears free.

[Raston Bot]

Wyoming's given out $508,787 over the past 30 years. They've all been to ski movie makers.

[Almanian!]

Whoa, EPIC, brah!

*flips back cool blonde hair - affixes Ray Bans? - skis off*

[JudgeFang]

So did Scott Walker require the executives of Brunswick to report for drug testing prior to cutting their welfare check?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

He was going to, but then he punted on the question.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Alternative: he got 80% through such a proposal and then quit

[Brett L]

Apparently, Florida stopped after finding out its welfare recipients either used half as much or cheated twice as effectively as their Correctional officers.

[antisocial-ist]

It could be a combination of the two.

[See Double You]

With the way courts apply the "rational basis" test to economic legislation, the Constitution won't solve this problem.

Sadly, only politics works now.

[Pro Libertate]

Rational basis = bullshit rationalization, based on justifying some bullshit end some politicians want to achieve.

[See Double You]

At the very least, courts could refine the term to mean they will invalidate legislation that is designed to reward political cronies. Is that asking so much?

[Pro Libertate]

One of the biggest mistakes in constitutional history is this idea of a presumption of constitutionality, followed by one of the other biggest mistakes, which is deference to other branches. Once a law is challenged, it should be presumed invalid, with the burden of proof totally on the government. And deference should go totally out the window--the branches are separate for a reason.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Pro is right, rational basis is a problem but the presumption of constitutionality is as bad and I think has more to do with allowing cronyism

[Gilbert Martin]

There is no Constitutional basis for the entire concept of the so-called "rational basis" test.

They completely dreamed up out of thin air a concept that certain rights are "fundamental" - such as freedom of speech and others are not - such as private property rights. The "fundamental" rights are subject to a "strict scrutiny" test regarding Constitutionality while all the non fundamental rights get the "rational basis" rubber stamp that lets legislatures do whatever they want.

[Alice Bowie]

Corporate Welfare???

Libertarians would regularly throw tomatoes at me for even bringing this up.
Surprised Reason.com is looking down on this. I thought libertarians only support welfare for corporations and that the regular guy that is not rich or a business owner should just shut up, sit down, go to work, be a good consumer, and die.

[See Double You]

If you don't want to be called a troll, don't troll.

[Heroic Mulatto]

I'm just wondering what soi-disant libertarians Alice interacted with that would hold such a view.

[SugarFree]

The brave recovering libertarians on Salon, perhaps?

[Heroic Mulatto]

So brave. Much zealot.

[See Double You]

No, no, no; it should be: "Much brave. So zealot."

[Heroic Mulatto]

I realized that after. No dogecoin tip for me!

[Sevo]

Heroic Mulatto|3.11.15 @ 4:05PM|#
"I'm just wondering what soi-disant libertarians Alice interacted with that would hold such a view."

The ones between his ears.

[Alice Bowie]

That's not trolling, I sincerely believe that the general sentiment among libertarians is that Government should only protect commercial interests and everyone else is on their own.

[Citizen Nothing]

And I sincerely believe that you sincerely believe that.

[Citizen Nothing]

I also sincerely believe that you, personally, are probably the single best argument against legalized pot.

[wwhorton]

Are you kidding? She's like the posterchild for heavy sedatives. If they brought Quaaludes back she might even be able to live a normal life.

[See Double You]

You have no legitimate reason to believe that.

[Alice Bowie]

"Small or no government with little intervention"

John Stossell himself would rather see all consumer protection and discrimination laws go away so that business wouldn't have to deal with these silly matters.

[antisocial-ist]

Which is exactly the same thing as giving them other people's money.

[KDN]

For some reason he thinks "libertarian" is a synonym of "establishment Republican."

It's like the flipside of a bad caricature of Progressivism: the government should take care of everyone except those that have commercial interests. Those people should be fucked for the benefit of all others and have no power to react to said fucking in any way.

[Alice Bowie]

Libertarians are 1000000000 more smarter and tolerable than established republicans.

[Heroic Mulatto]

So you sincerely believe the strident Salon-crowd's intentional mischaracterization of libertarianism?

Sounds legit.

Allow me to disabuse you of that notion. What you describe is a mercantilism/cronyism, of which libertarian political economic philosophy is completely against.

There. Now you have nothing to worry about as we're all in agreement.

[Citizen Nothing]

the regular guy that is not rich or a business owner should just shut up, sit down, go to work, be a good consumer, and die.

Only if they're stinkin' hippies.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

What a wasted adjective. All hippies stink of course!

[Irish]

Well, if you think it's possible for people to avoid working, not consume, and live forever, you should really stop keeping your secret from us.

[Alice Bowie]

At some point in our future, humans (assuming we don't kill all humans in the 'race-to-have-it-all') will be able to avoid work, consume, and live for a long time once machines can make machines and repair machines. But don't let the secret out.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Once machines can make machines, what need would they have of us? The best we could hope for is some melding of man and machine, or uploading if and when it becomes possible.

[See Double You]

The Singularity.

[Alice Bowie]

Once machines can make machines, what need would they have of us?

Hope all well with Kid Mulatto.

But getting back to this point, It depends on the they you refer to above.

If it is the selfish scumbags of today's elites and those in power, I would assume that rather than extending fruitful lives towards the masses, these people would probably have most people on earth killed that were not within their specs.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Hope all well with Kid Mulatto

She is doing well, thank you.

If it is the selfish scumbags of today's elites and those in power,

Well, the machines won't have to worry about them. They don't need to eat, have sex, be warm, sleep, feel pain, grow old...what power could they wield against them?

[Gilbert Martin]

Evidently you have never seen "The Terminator"

[OldMexican]

Re: Alice Bowie,

Libertarians would regularly throw tomatoes at me for even bringing this up.

"Hans?"
"Ja?"
Bang!

A.B. is like Hans. And Hans. And... Hans.

[Tony]

Nonsense. They all hate corporate welfare, provided someone brings it up in the middle of their ranting about all the lazy poor people.

[Puddin' Stick]

Please, Tony, tell us how corporate welfare benefits us all.

[Col. R C Dean]

Libertarians would regularly throw tomatoes at me for even bringing this up.

Horseshit. Libertarians despise cronyism and welfare of all kinds, corporate or otherwise.

[Sevo]

The "vast, rightwing conspiracy" fires a show across the bow of SS Shrill:

"AP sues State Department, seeking access to Clinton records"
[...]
"The legal action comes after repeated requests filed under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act have gone unfulfilled. They include one request AP made five years ago and others pending since the summer of 2013."
Reason no like linky; you gotta look.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

The Lamestream Media?

That tropes pretty thin these days...

[Sevo]

....fires a SHOT (not a show)

[Puddin' Stick]

http://bigstory.ap.org/article.....on-records

[Sevo]

Grazie!

[Puddin' Stick]

What I would like to know is? who paid for the system.

There's GoDaddy domain registrar, DNS services from WorldNIC, MxLogic mail filtering, a GoDaddy cert, a FortiGate firewall, at least 2 Windows Server licenses, an Exchange server license, Exchange user CALs, at least 1 physical server machine (and the possibility of running ESX), internet service (which I think is provided by Internap), and rack space with power at Internap.

That is not cheap. I would guess there is 20-60k up front if they paid someone to set it up for them.

Then there are the recurring monthly costs for MxLogic and Internap and the yearly (or every 2, 3, or more years depending upon which one they got) for domain, DNS, SSL cert, and Microsoft SA.

While domain renewals, DNS, and SSL cert can be 30-50 a year, MxLogic and Microsoft SA should be a few hundred a year each and Internap is probably in the mid hundreds to low thousands.

[Ornithorhynchus]

The biggest recipient in Oklahoma is a timber company?!?! Do we even have very much commercial timber here?

Not surprised to see who was listed for Wisconsin.
There used to be a big Brunswick factory in this area (they made boat engines). About a decade ago, the company was struggling a bit, and after some confusing changes of direction from the bosses, they ultimately decided to close down a major factory in Wisconsin, and combine its operations with the plant here.
The decision made a lot of sense, as the Oklahoma plant was non-union and had much lower costs, while maintaining high levels of quality control.
And then the Wisconsin government passed a big incentive package, and Brunswick suddenly reversed themselves and shut down the Oklahoma plant.

[Jason Keisling]

Being from OK, I expected it to be an energy company like Chesapeake or Devon. I was a bit surprised too.

[wwhorton]

As a Marylander, it confuses the shit out of me that you have a company in OK named Chesapeake.

[Tony]

The founder likes to vacation there, I think.

He sips his Bordeaux; his own private wine cellar once boasted more than 10,000 bottles. It's a good riff, with some truth to it. But what McClendon leaves out is the real nature of the business he's in. Fracking, it turns out, is about producing cheap energy the same way the mortgage crisis was about helping realize the dreams of middle-class homeowners. For Chesapeake, the primary profit in fracking comes not from selling the gas itself, but from buying and flipping the land that contains the gas. The company is now the largest leaseholder in the United States, owning the drilling rights to some 15 million acres ? an area more than twice the size of Maryland. McClendon has financed this land grab with junk bonds and complex partnerships and future production deals, creating a highly leveraged, deeply indebted company that has more in common with Enron than ExxonMobil. As McClendon put it in a conference call with Wall Street analysts a few years ago, "I can assure you that buying leases for x and selling them for 5x or 10x is a lot more profitable than trying to produce gas at $5 or $6 per million cubic feet."

Link

[antisocial-ist]

"! Do we even have very much commercial timber here?"

Some timber CEO probably convinced a politician that you can get timber by fracking. Then he got a few mill to ride around in his truck looking for the best spot to extract this underground wood. Good work if you can get it.

[Puddin' Stick]

The spotted owl was very big money for Weyerhaeuser. Their payments to wildlife biologists to count spotted owls on competitor's timber farms drove up the price of timber and turned their losses into profits:

Predictions about the effects of environmental regulations scared the market into a perceived shortage, according to Burrle Elmore, editor of Random Lengths, a Eugene-based newsletter that tracks wood prices. As a result, prices almost doubled between 1990 and 1994.

The millions of acres of private timberlands held by corporations such as Weyerhaeuser and Willamette Industries became very valuable. Net income for Willamette Industries nearly quadrupled from 1991 to 1994. For Weyerhaeuser, net income rose from a $101 million loss in 1991 to a $589 million gain in 1994.

The irony is not lost on Andy Kerr, director of the Oregon Natural Resources Council. "They should send us a thank-you note and a big check," he says.

[Puddin' Stick]

Weyerhaeuser has 250K acres in the Three Rivers Management area plus more outside that area.

[Sigivald]

While I want governments to stop doing crony capitalism, or paying companies to stay or arrive in a place, or to otherwise interfere in markets...

I don't think it's reasonable to call a tax break a "subsidy".

Any more than I'm being 'subsidized' by the State not raising my taxes to 95%.

Not taking your money is not a proper subsidy; giving you someone else's money is.

(Yes, there are similar effects to exceptions to the general tax rate, and yes, I think it's lame and they should stop.

But "subsidy" here is like the idiotic use of it by anti-oil zealots to try and tell me we "subsidize" the oil industry by not taxing CO2 emissions, or by not raising the price of government land leases for oil exploration and drilling.)

[Sevo]

Sigivald|3.11.15 @ 6:03PM|#
"While I want governments to stop doing crony capitalism, or paying companies to stay or arrive in a place, or to otherwise interfere in markets...
I don't think it's reasonable to call a tax break a "subsidy"."

Correct; it is the wrong term. Probably 'favors' would be better than 'subsidies' to characterize the market distortion at issue here.

[Nihilist Denialist]

Also in many cases, the company would not be doing business in the state without the tax credits. Thus the state isn't actually losing any tax revenue by giving them the credits.

Reason's calculations here are assuming that all these companies would be doing as much biz in those states even if they had to pay full taxes, which is ridiculous. But attacking teh eeeeevil KKKorporations is full of cocktail party invite cred.

[Sevo]

Nihilist Denialist|3.12.15 @ 12:14AM|#
"Also in many cases, the company would not be doing business in the state without the tax credits. Thus the state isn't actually losing any tax revenue by giving them the credits."

Which is irrelevant to the market distortions caused by tax credits.

[Nihilist Denialist]

Who was talking about that? The article is claiming that this is money given to companies by state govts -- which is wrong right away when talking about tax breaks, and still wrong even if you consider "lost tax revenue" to be a subsidy.

[sunilnarine346]

my co-worker's mother-in-law makes $73 hourly on the internet . She has been unemployed for 5 months but last month her income was $12184 just working on the internet for a few hours. Read Full Article.......

http://www.Jobsyelp.com

[aywadaframsoh]

My last pay check was $9500 working 12 hours a week online. My sisters friend has been averaging 15k for months now and she works about 20 hours a week. I can't believe how easy it was once I tried it out. This is what I do

http://www.wixjob.com

[aywadaframsoh]

My last pay check was $9500 working 12 hours a week online. My sisters friend has been averaging 15k for months now and she works about 20 hours a week. I can't believe how easy it was once I tried it out. This is what I do

http://www.wixjob.com

[John Galt]

3.6 billion to GM? What about the 11 billion they stiffed us on?

[crossrachel77]

I can't promise u will get rich over night with my program but i can promise you one thing and that is my opportunities are free and legit..
if you want to make money without spending a dime Sign up here

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[woodNfish]

goodjobsfirst.org is a union propaganda outlet.

[Dallasjmoore]

Why would I give a shit what companies got tax breaks? This doesn't effect my life in any way nor does it yours but please keep crying about how you think you are entitled to money that other people make and continue to be outraged about tax breaks that corporations get. When you build a successful corporation and provide thousands of jobs to your state then I will listen to what you have to say about corporations and tax breaks. Until then I could care less of what any of you have to say.