To Check the President's Power of Life and Death, How About a Court He Is Free to Ignore?

Some critics of President Obama's "targeted killing" policy have suggested that a tribunal modeled after the court created by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) could help ensure that the right people get blown up. Georgetown law professor Neal Katyal, who served as acting solicitor general after Obama named Elena Kagan to the Supreme Court, thinks that's a bad idea, as he explains in a New York Times op-ed piece:
There are many reasons a drone court composed of generalist federal judges will not work. They lack national security expertise, they are not accustomed to ruling on lightning-fast timetables, they are used to being in absolute control, their primary work is on domestic matters and they usually rule on matters after the fact, not beforehand.
Even the questions placed before the FISA Court aren't comparable to what a drone court would face; they involve more traditional constitutional issues—not rapidly developing questions about whether to target an individual for assassination by a drone strike.
First of all, whoops! Didn't Katyal get the Justice Department memo declaring that shooting a missile at someone whom the president identifies as a threat to national security should never be called an "assassination"? As the DOJ white paper summarizing the legal rationale for killing American citizens suspected of ties to Al Qaeda or its allies explains, "A lawful killing in self-defense is not an assassination."
Exactly what counts as self-defense, of course, is precisely the issue, as Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) suggests in a recent Human Events essay:
If you're launching a missile on U.S. troops, if you are launching a missile toward the United States, if you are hijacking a plane, if you are setting off a bomb, if you are leveling an AK-47 at any one of our soldiers—by all means and with great expedition, we will drop a drone bomb on you. No one is arguing against employing immediate and lethal force against anyone whose finger approaches a trigger.
President Obama's drone killing goes a great deal further, however. Mr. Obama tells us that an "imminent threat" need not be "immediate."
But if the threat is not immediate, shouldn't there be time for indepedendent review of the decision to condemn a man to death? Paul argues that a U.S. citizen who joins Al Qaeda is guilty of treason and should be tried for that crime, in absentia if necessary. Why have a trial? Because someone accused of terrorism is not necessarily guilty of terrorism, just as someone accused of rape or murder is not necessarily guilty of rape or murder. While Paul deems the case against Anwar al-Awlaki pretty solid, for instance, he is not so sure about Awlaki's 16-year-old son, who was killed by a drone a few weeks after his father. "Can a 16-year-old be a terrorist or a traitor?" Paul writes. "Absolutely, but am I the only American who believes that this 16-year-old also deserved the contemplation of a jury and a judge?"
While Katyal argues that there is no time for such legal niceties, Paul notes that Awlaki "was targeted for months—long enough and publicly enough that his father actually protested in court but was not heard." It seems the Obama administration's real imperative is not timeliness so much as keeping the process within the executive branch, as Katyal's proposed solution would:
Imagine…that the president had an internal court, staffed by expert lawyers to represent both sides. Those lawyers, like the Judge Advocate General's Corps in the military, would switch sides every few years, to develop both expertise as repeat players and the ability to understand the other point of view.
The adjudicator would be a panel of the president's most senior national security advisers, who would issue decisions in writing if at all possible. Those decisions would later be given to the Congressional intelligence committees for review. Crucially, the president would be able to overrule this court, and take whatever action he thought appropriate, but would have to explain himself afterward to Congress.
Although Obama argues that people killed by drones are already getting all the process that's due, Katyal seems to disagree. The adversarial process he suggests (which apparently would not be limited to American citizens) is a new wrinkle, although in the end the decision about who should live and who should die would still come down to one man, which is the crux of the problem.
Katyal is right to question whether the FISA court, which convenes in secret and never hears from lawyers representing terrorism suspects, is a good model to follow. "Between 1979 and 2011," he notes, that court "rejected only 11 out of more than 32,000 requests [for surveillance warrants]—making the odds of getting a request rejected, around 1 in 3,000, approximately the same as those of being struck by lightning in one's lifetime." But is there any reason to think an executive branch tribunal completely subservient to the president would prove to be more skeptical of the government's claims? Even if it did, it would hardly matter, since the president still could do as he pleased.
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Paul continues to knock it out of the park.
If so, then he's hitting foul balls.
Notice Rand Paul's assumption that Americans would not be the aggressors. No one, claims the good senator, has the right to defend theirselves against "the United States", "our soldiers", or the criminals in control of them. Not the victims of President Drone Nut. Not a virtuous Iraqi opposed to squads of invading American goons. Not even a young victim of William Calley.
Face reality. Rand Paul is a criminal-minded bigot, and his status as senator is evidence that he's criminally active, too. A "finger approaches a trigger" every day on his behalf, so even when judged by his own code of ethics, Sen. Rand Paul needs to be stopped "by all means and with great expedition" through "immediate and lethal force".
Good stuff. Is your newsletter weekly, or just bi-monthly?
No one, claims the good senator, has the right to defend theirselves against "the United States", "our soldiers", or the criminals in control of them.
-------------------
the good Senator is making no claim of the sort, but you already know that. By the way, needz moar scare quotes.
Try your comment again in English.
There is no national security exception to the Constitution. There's some leeway in the president's inherent powers to conduct a war, but I don't think those apply when randomly droning people.
Well, I'm as anti-random-droning as anyone, but I'm not sure it's unconstitutional. There's the question of where, geographically, the 5th amendment applies, which is not an easy question to answer. It certainly applies within US jurisdiction; there is some debate about whether "the constitution follows the flag" into occupied territories not formally within US jurisdiction. But you'd have to claim that the entire world is under the 5th amendment to say that dronings of non-US citizens in Yemen violate the constitution.
What makes this complicated right now is that the AUMF against terror (which I believe has become an improper delegation of Congress's war power) arguably authorizes such actions. Normally, the president would not have the authority to do this sort of thing without any check on his power. It's not just a civil liberties issue; it's also about where the president derives the authority for such attacks. Theoretically, he could drone someone here, even an American.
In general, our system depends on the branches having only strictly limited powers when it comes to what they can do independent of the other branches. Of course, Congress really does have the ability to stop this sort of thing if it wanted to, but we've seen how little Congress does to rein in abuses of power.
PL, this is exactly the right take on the issue. He can (and imho should be able to) kill the bad guys described in the AUMF.
Has he overstepped that authorization?
(Technically there should be a Congressional declaration of war to be Constitutional, but I suppose that would be asking too much from those chicken shit assholes.)
I think an AUMF can be a valid declaration of war. The one for Iraq probably was, for instance. But the one on terror is way over the top.
I'm not sure how to fix this, since Congress seems content to let the president blow up anyone he wants, whenever he wants. It seems like declarations of war, however they're done, should define the goals of the war and be limited in time and scope.
"Declare war" is one of those phrases that the Constitution seems to assume everybody knows the meaning of.
Just like the fifth amendment says "private property shall not be taken for public use without just compensation". If we take this literally, it doesn't restrict private property from being taken for private use at all. But obvioiusly we know what it's supposed to mean.
It's why many think the AUMF against Iraq was a valid declaration of war. There's no formal process beyond what the Constitution says, which isn't much.
Congress, if it truly opposed the use of force in a situation, could cut the budget, declare the war invalid (implied, arguably, in its war-making power), impeach the president, etc. Naturally, it will do none of those things, maybe no matter what.
Well, to me a declaration of war has to contain a statement saying that the US is at war against someone. That's bare minimum.
AUMFs have no constitutional standing IMNHO because they are essentially permission slips for the prez to declare war. I would agree that the Iraq AUMF at least specified a government and country to use force against and is less destructive than the 9/11 AUMF.
Iraq was probably okay or at least okayish.
But, but, we're in a war against EVIL!!! Don't you get that???
is EVIL located anywhere near poverty, drugs, or those other places we have declared war against?
"If we take this literally, it doesn't restrict private property from being taken for private use at all."
Yes it does - the *government's* powers and authority are supposed to be explicitly spelled out in the constitution - i.e. if it doens't say the gov can do it the gov can't do it.
For the *people*, everything that isn't explicity forbidden is allowed.
Theoretically, he could drone someone here, even an American.
The Justice departmenty already made that argument. I don't know why everybody's acting like this is new.
Do the laws on murder follow US citizens overseas? I think yes. Case closed.
If we're gonna claim universal jurisdiction over citizens, that means citizens' rights have to be universal as well.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I kill myself sometimes.
The federal government insists that federal law applies to Americans even outside the US, that we must pay US taxes earned on income outstide the US, the the US can arrest foreigners for doing things that are legal in their jurisdiction but illegal for americans.
If that's the way they want to play it tnen the protectionsand limitations on government power outlined in the constitution apply outside the US also.
The Constitution applies to the government everywhere in the world.
The adjudicator would be a panel of the president's most senior national security advisers, who would issue decisions in writing if at all possible. Those decisions would later be given to the Congressional intelligence committees for review. Crucially, the president would be able to overrule this court, and take whatever action he thought appropriate, but would have to explain himself afterward to Congress.
Considering that wide swaths of the information in the decision would be classified, how would any of this be enforced? If BO's "explanation" consists of a piece of construction paper with "BECAUSE I CAN" written in crayon on it, the members of the intelligence committee can't discuss this publicly and can't move for impeachment or anything.
By Jove, I think he's got it for once! THAT'S THE POINT. Tulpy-Poo.
Except for one thing. Obama would say in crayon, "YES I CAN."
"I AM THE DRONE-MASTER WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR"
I can see the explaination now -
Dear congresscritters,
I had to drone (redacted) over the objections of drone court because (redacted).
Thank you for your time.
Shysters gotta shy.
I hope Rand doesn't fall for one of these special-court ideas.
If we're going to do this, let's revive outlawry and confine droning to bona-fide outlaws. By outlawry, I mean repeatedly summoning the alleged terrorist to appear in court to defend against the charges, and only if he fails to show up declare him outside the law's protection, so that a drone (or Steven Segall, or whoever) can kill him (with the caveat that if he offers to surrender he be captured not killed).
To me, anything short of this is outlawry without due process of law, the thing King John got in trouble for doing when they banned it in the Magna Carta.
"Sen. Paul Issues Final Letter to Brennan Questioning Government Drone Authority"
http://paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=713
They'll look back on these letters and say, "Not everyone gave in, some fought back."
OMG DERP Paul is against the Right to Privacy
/derp
By the way, the Technoviking is suing the guy who filmed him. Now that's an act of war. The filming, I mean.
Who decides if a factory gets bombed?
This is where I was going upthread. It's pretty easy when there's a formal declaration of war against a tangible enemy. Blow all their shit up. If an American is fighting with their army, blow him up, too.
Under the AUMF against terror, the situation is much fuzzier. The president can blow shit up as C-in-C, but the usual justifications for letting the president control the conduct of the war don't apply the same way.
For instance, if, say, Warty were selling rugs to an al Qaeda guy from his vacation house in Yemen, there's plenty of time, usually, to decide whether he needs blowing up. Since Warty is, technically, a U.S. citizen, that ups the ante and raises the due process question, because this isn't a typical war. Frankly, I don't see a good reason for the president to be able to do this without oversight, and I think Congress should modify the AUMF considerably.
When you say rug, do you mean a headpiece or a merkin?
It just says "rug" in Arabic in my national security report. I guess we could ask Warty, though I advise against it--he might actually tell us.
"Rug" is a poor translation. I'll leave it at that.
Fucking CIA.
'merkin = resident of the USofA? Or would there have to be a vowel added i.e. 'merikin or 'merakin... just asking.
The AUMF isn't against "terror", it's against the organizations, persons, and nations that are affiliated with those responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Which is a ridiculously broad classification; how does one determine "affiliation" with al-Qaeda? Both Bush and BO have cast very wide nets.
That's just the universal shorthand. It doesn't matter--the authorization is way too broad and, like I keep saying, seems to me to be an overbroad delegation of inherent Congressional powers. Not that half of what goes on these days doesn't do that already.
It doesn't say "affiliated." Here's the text:
"That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons."
Aren't they mostly dead?
Indeed. Take the examples of Ezra Pound in WWII, or Jane Fonda in the Vietnam War (the latter was Kevin Williamson of NR's response to pro-al-Awaki killing folks like Krauthammer.)
The problem isn't using drones versus bombers, or declarations of war versus the AUMF, or even naming the groups. It's the decision to target people who are not acting in any sort of imminent timeframe and generally would not be thought of as military targets, as Rand says.
The US citizen brings yet another complication to the argument. 5A requires due process. You gotta try him for treason BEFORE droning him.
I don't see why you wouldn't do that first unless you are a power hungry megalomaniac.
Sure. Why not? It's not like we're droning to stop imminent attacks.
Due process isn't always a regular court trial. We have military tribunals for acts perpetrated by US citizen soldiers. The question is, is BO dropping below the bare minimum of due process for people who are not an immediate threat?
If said citizen were in the process of committing a violent act against the US or other citizens, I'd be OK with droning him immediately.
I think anything imminent is easy. Heck, you could drone someone, assuming you could legally wield drones at all, if they were about to attack you or someone else.
But why no due process for American citizens when it's feasible? Something less than a full trial, I can understand, perhaps, but nothing? We have a parallel situation in Guantanamo, though that's usually not an American citizen issue.
due process isn't always a regular court trial, but it is some process. Right now, there is no process.
No, there is a process. Drone process.
The drones have processors somewhere in their murderous robot hearts, right?
DRONE PROCESS
The disposition matrix is consulted, the president pushes a button, and the drone is flown to kill its target. That's a process I've described. A drone process. Completely constitutional, right?
"Due process means that there's a process that you do," eh?
The white paper the NYT obtained does outline some sort of process.
Maybe we should start using the full phrase: "due process of law"
Whatever process is going on, is has no grounding in law.
yeah, this is an elastic phrase.
I would say we need a new constitutional convention to iron out the silly misinterpretations and make the safeguards more specific, but reality is a constitution written today would be a paean to statism -- like the EU constitution is.
the constitution we have today says "due process of law" it may be ambiguous in some ways, but not that one.
Adam
Is there due process for bombing a soldier in a barracks?
That decision is made well below the level of the President.
A declaration of war gives the executive the authority to kill* WITHOUT due process. That is why it is so important.
* (not a citizen)
* and only those specified in the declaration
I suppose a declaration of war could be viewed as a kind of due process in and of itself. X country is doing bad things, we've reviewed the situation and have decided to kill them until they stop.
except the 5th amendment applies to each individual whose life, liberty, and property are taken away.
Well, we obviously have never taken that view with declared wars.
5A is citizens only after war is declared.
well, it's a question of where, geographically, %A applies.
In theory, the government can only do what it has been authorized to do under the Constitution. So if an action is outside its power here, it's outside its power overseas, too.
For example, if an American expat were transmitting negative commentary about (and to) the U.S. from Paris, he still has First Amendment rights. In fact, so does a French citizen doing the same thing.
Another way of stating the same thing. I like yours better and will use it from now on.
It gives the executive the authority to kill enemy soldiers of the foreign state named in the declaration, or in the case of a non-international armed conflict persons taking an active part in hostilities, in accordance with the applicable laws of war. None of that applies to drone strikes.
Nowhere does it specifically say "state". Congress can declare war on whomever they please.
the laws of war specifically so state, and the us is bound to them by treaty.
Except that in a military tribunal the defendents have rights - right to counsel, right to remain silent, etc.
Their called courts-martial and they're not just a couple of officers pronouncing guilts and assigning punishments willy-nilly.
"National Security Expertise" = they think like a Smersh agent.
"not accustomed to ruling on lightning-fast timetables": If the POTUS is making 'lightning-fast' decisions, please explain how he can observe 'due process'.
"they usually rule on matters after the fact, not beforehand": I have to give him this one. Judges are not usually accessories before the fact to pre-meditated murder.
Wait, don't the FISA judges review the requests beforehand? I could swear that's how it's supposed to work.
Search requests are supposed to be ex parte (hearing only one side) - execution requests, on the other hand, should require hearing both sides.
"they usually rule on matters after the fact, not beforehand"
which is bullshit from the getgo since judges issue restraining orders, injunctions, and set bail all the time to prevent future acts.
"they usually rule on matters after the fact, not beforehand."
Aren't all warrants necessarily before the fact? And that's a core function of the judiciary.
I'll just throw this out there, but how is the AUMF, in as much as it authorizes summary executions of suspected Al-Queda members, not a Bill of Attainder, expressly forbidden by the Constitution?
It effectively declares all members of Al-Queda (as they are identified by the Executive) guilty of treason and waging war against the government, and de facto outlaws, with no right to due process.
Just wait for the AUMF against libertarians.
"There was an imminent danger he would engage in activities that would cause serious carbon dioxide emissions.
Plus he also said he had a right to own a gun."
The AUMF against right-wing commenters.
Given that police agencies have used (legal) gun ownership as justification for a SWAT raid for a simple search warrant, I'm not quite sure there isn't already an AUMF against gun owners.
We killed US citizens fighting for the Germans in WW2 with no problem.
It's not really declaring them guilty of a crime, it's authorizing the prez to use all necessary force against them.
Like it or not, when the combatants do not wear uniforms or ally themselves with a nation-state, we have two choices: (1) we can be barbarians or (2) we can take the hard right over the easy wrong.
Except how do we determine who is a combatant?
The fact that the enemy has chosen not to wear uniforms does not justify killing any person in the world who's not wearing a uniform, which is the logic the neocons have been using so far.
Same way we determine if a factory is making tank parts.
Intelligence.
Sometimes it's bad intell, and you kill a bunch of innocents. War is not moral, by nature. That's why it should be avoided at all costs.
Sorry, but that's a cop-out. The existence of a state of war (which I don't believe is the case here, but for the sake of argument) cannot justify allowing the prez to order the killing of everyone everywhere on earth with no public justification.
It can if that's what Congress declares.
There has never been any due process for combatants. As PL says above. The declaration IS the due process.
From what I'm getting from you, war is not possible. How would you impose due process on every soldier you kill?
you continue to muddle wars between states with conflicts between a state and a non-state. in wars between states, the soldiers of the warring states are fair game. in conflicts between a state and a non-state, only persons taking an active part in hostilities are fair game. people who have some affiliation for those taking part in hostilies, or who provide support for them, etc. are not fair gave. see common article 3 of the geneva conventions.
Bullshit!
Common Article 3 makes no distinction between state actors and non-state actors.
Here it is.
Killing them on the battlefield is fundamentally different from hunting them down and killing them without due process.
German-Americans that fought for the Nazis, as far as I know, were afforded all the rights and protections of the Geneva conventions and the rules of war.
There were the guys in the SCOTUS case Ex Parte Quirin (1942) , one of whom was a US citizen. They were executed with only a military trial.
Keyword is trial.
Nope.
Are you saying you cannot kill uniformed soldiers while they are bivouacked eating chow at the DFAC?
Killing uniformed soldiers of an state's army is fundamentally different under the laws of war from killing members of an organization, some members of which engage in violence. See the geneva conventions.
Given that the Executive branch doesn't really care about due process before ordering a drone strike, shouldn't we at least get a justification afterwards? They don't even do that. There are no drone strikes.
http://www.mattbors.com/wp-con.....02/970.png
"Except how do we determine who is a combatant?"
Easy!
Everyone killed by a drone is an enemy combatant.
(Didn't you read the press release?)
If they run they're VC - if they don't run they're well trained VC
Ain't war hell?
How can you drone women and children?
Easy! You just don't lead them as much! hahahaha!
From the administration's viewpoint, could it execute an American detainee in Guantanamo without a trial? In fact, could it just kill everyone there arbitrarily?
No, you can't execute people once they're in custody, like that, regardless of whether they're actually POWs.
But as long as they're not in custody, yet, yeah, I think the AUMF lets the president target anybody he wants anywhere in the world--so long as the president deems them affiliated with Al Qaeda.
We need to either sunset or revise the AUMF. I'm just havin' a hard time trying to imagine who would actually do that with the AUMF. Maybe if Rand Paul were elected president? I know the Republicans aren't interested in rewriting the AUMF. And Obama isn't either. I don't see Hillary or Biden wanting to rewrite the AUMF...
So who?
Incidentally, I think this is why people tend to look at the Supreme Court for political solutions.
We were hoping the Supreme Court would provide us with a political solution to ObamaCare. We once hoped that the Supreme Court would provide us with a political solution to slavery--instead they gave us Dred Scott...
The solution isn't in the laws we already have, and the chances of the Supreme Court circumscribing the Commander in Chief's war powers are almost nil. So, the only viable solutions are a) electing a new unicorn president that doesn't want the powers Obama has b) impeaching the current president for killing America hating terrorists or c) Congress repealing or revising the AUMF.
C) is the most plausible option of the three, and it's still basically implausible.
Why can't they drone detainees? What difference does it make that they're captured? This is all supposedly outside the rules of war and due process, so I don't see how that can be said.
It's all wrong, of course, but that's a different matter.
We have the Geneva Conventions.
We signed various treaties.
The AUMF gives the president the right to attack Al Qaeda anywhere they are.
It doesn't give him the right to ignore treaties.
Do those treaties cover all of this? The government has been consistent in arguing that they don't. For instance, our detention practices aren't all consistent with the Geneva Convention, I believe.
The confusion came into this when the Bush Administration decided to start treating captives as if they were NOT POWs.
In the past, generally speaking, the United States always treated captives as if they were POWs--regardless of whether they were actually entitled to such treatment.
However, according the Conventions, you don't have to treat "illegal combatants" the same way you treat POWs. This is why Abu Ghraib was such a problem. The "enhanced interrogation" techniques were absolutely illegal according to the Geneva Conventions against POWS, but were argued (by the Administration, anyway) to be okay for "illegal combatants" captured out of uniform, etc.
When they sent the commanders from Guantanamo to Abu Ghraib, those commanders started using techniques meant for illegal combatants at Guantanamo on Iraqi soldiers who had been captured in uniform!
So, anyway, that was a distinction hardly any Americans paid any attention to before the Bush Administration--our treatment of detainees at Guantanamo are--supposedly--consistent with the Geneva Conventions in regards to "illegal combatants". They're just not consistent with the Geneva Conventions in regards to POWs. Which is why you'll never hear the government refer to Guantanamo detainees as "prisoners".
"Those commanders started using techniques meant for illegal combatants at Guantanamo on Iraqi soldiers who had been captured in uniform!"
Incidentally, there's a term for that.
The term is "war crime".
And I don't see why it should matter if it happened because of a bureaucratic snafu.
"illegal combatants" is a category made up by the Bush admin. It doesn't exist in geneva convention themselves.
Third Convention
Article 5
"The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal."
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/.....#Article_5
Whatever you want to call them, there is a category there of people who are not necessarily afforded all the protections of POWs in Article 4.
Good discussion, but I'm going skiing.
Toodles.
IMO, the AUMF as written is unconstitutional. By giving the president the power to kill anyone he deems a member of an organization, especially given the context (a stateless group, a war of an indefinite nature), it essentially repeals the Fifth Amendment, which a mere law cannot do. I also think the term "war" is used far too broadly today. The fighting in Afghanistan is/was most definitely a war. The broader conflict against any and all terrorists is not a war IMO. Terrorism is a criminal act
Even if it's unconstitutional, it's the law until it's declared unconstitutional, though, right?
We're not about to be able to successfully prosecute somebody for following the president's orders in this regard.
Give me a fucking break. The judges "lack national security experience"? What about President Obama? What national security experience did he have prior to becoming President which has qualified him as the decision maker!? Stop the bullshit.