The latest trial in what seems like an endless series of ginned-up "domestic terror threats" is under way now in Detroit. Let's check in with some details.
The seven are charged with conspiring to commit sedition, or rebellion…
A Midwest militia whose members prosecutors say were willing "to go to war" against the U.S. government was more like a "social club" whose talk was little more than fantasy, defense attorneys say.
Displaying guns, vests and other military gear, Assistant U.S. Attorney Christopher Graveline told jurors Monday that members of anti-government Hutaree wanted to kill a police officer as a springboard to a broader rebellion against the U.S. government…
Two defense attorneys offered an opening rebuttal to the government's introduction, telling jurors there was no specific plan to do any harm to anyone in authority.
Jurors will hear more opening statements from defense attorneys Tuesday in the case against seven members of the Hutaree…..
Graveline showed the jury a video clip of leader David Stone declaring, "Welcome to the revolution." The government placed an undercover agent inside the Hutaree and also had a paid informant. More than 100 hours of audio and video were recorded….
Todd Shanker, attorney for David Stone Jr., acknowledged there are "offensive statements" on the recordings but said the words were "almost fantasy" made among people who were comfortable with each other….adding later that the Hutaree really was more of a "social club" than any organized militia.
William Swor, attorney for David Stone…told jurors the government was displaying weapons in court to "make you afraid." Swor said members lived hand-to-mouth and couldn't even afford transportation to a regional militia meeting in Kentucky, a trip that wasn't completed because of bad winter weather. He said it was the undercover agent who supplied the van, gas and a secret camera that captured Stone on video.
Of the original nine defendants, Joshua Clough, of Blissfield, Mich., is the only one to make a deal with prosecutors. He pleaded guilty in December to illegal use of a firearm, faces a mandatory five-year prison sentence and could be called as a witness to testify for the government.
Besides the Stones, the other defendants are Tina Mae Stone and Joshua Stone, both from Lenawee County; Thomas Piatek, of Whiting, Ind.; Michael Meeks, of Manchester, Mich.; and Kristopher Sickles, of Sandusky, Ohio. Jacob Ward, of Huron, Ohio, will have a separate trial. Besides conspiracy charges, all face at least one firearm charge and some have more.
"You will have to decide whether this is a real conspiracy or David Stone exercising his God-given right to blow off steam and open his mouth," Stone's lawyer William Swor of Detroit told jurors. "The United States government has never been the enemy of David Stone or his family. … These are ordinary people living ordinary lives. Doing this stuff was merely their form of recreation."
Rather than charging the Hutaree members with overt criminal acts, the Feds are prosecuting them for "sedition" – that is, criminal "offenses" that consist of expressing opinions about government corruption and making physical preparations to for self-defense against criminal violence by government authorities.
Lloyd Meyer, a Chicago attorney and former terrorism prosecutor, points out that this kind of prosecution is very unusual:
"How often do American citizens get charged with sedition or inciting discontent and resistance against big government? Heck, most citizens are discontented with the government. In this case, no one pulled a trigger and no one got hurt. … A jury could believe that the feds went after this group with a meat cleaver instead of a scalpel.
Federal prosecutors initially attempted to have all nine members of the Hutaree militia held without bail as a severe threat to public safety. In May 2010, Federal District Judge Victoria Roberts granted them bail…
Defense attorneys, citing the U.S. Supreme Court's 1969 Brandenburg v. Ohio decision, maintain that seditious speech — including speech that constitutes an incitement to violence — is protected by the First Amendment as long as it does not indicate an "imminent" threat.
The prosecutors' brief, invoking the the 1995 seditious conspiracy trial of Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman, maintained that it was not necessary to demonstrate a threat of imminent harm, but rather only that the defendants had formed an "agreement to oppose by force the authority of the United States."
Jesse Walker wrote here atReason all the way back in May 2010 after the arrests were first made. Key takeaway:
There are signs that the judge is unimpressed with the state's case, and she has stressed that prosecutors must demonstrate that the arrestees were guilty of an actual conspiracy to kill cops, not just loose talk. Even "hate-filled, venomous speech," she said, is "a right that deserves First Amendment protection."
Obviously we don't know what evidence has yet to be introduced at trial. Perhaps there really is more at issue here than some chest-beating chatter; perhaps there's a good reason to think a genuine murder plot was underway. But either way, we've learned enough about the Hutaree in the last month to know that the media narrative that greeted their arrests hasn't held up. Assume the worst-case scenario: that the defendants really were planning a massacre and that they really were capable of carrying it out. They still aren't the vanguard of the right-wing revolution. The Hutaree are isolated and despised, not just by the American mainstream but by the bulk of the groups on the SPLC's Patriot list. Indeed, the government may have had the help of some anti-Hutaree militiamen as it forged its case against the accused.
This month's Esquire has the best extended reporting on another case of sleazy government informants enticing some angry white men into saying or planning things that the government can then make a "big terror bust" on, the Georgia "Waffle House terrorism" case. As with the Hutarees and even more so, this arrest and prosecution is much government effort expended in a way that isn't really protecting anyone from anything.
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I have an idea that would end a bunch of these things. Make it illegal for agents of the federal government to provide materiel or support to persons they believe to be enemies of the United States, even under the pretense of infiltrating and gather evidence against them.
How are you going to catch domestic terrorists if you don't encourage their thoughts and provide them with materials that they could never have obtained on their own?
You can't catch these people unless you first create them.
if there is one thing i am completely confident of, it is despite our basement dwelling nerds' delusion that they are doing grand things in the fight for justice by engaging in circle jerks of bigoted ignorance, or half-assed "journalists" polemical screeds devoid of even the slightest understanding of UOF principles, let alone fair journalism, nobody from the govt. is itching to round up the reason blogerati or their "journalist" handlers, because... well, they are about as scary to them as raw milk...
One very amusing phenomenon when it comes to revolutionary or seditious groups without a rich sugar daddy is that often the informants or police infiltrators are the only ones paying their dues on time. In some cases, the informants are the ones keeping the organizations solvent! 🙂
The Holy see began a definitive reduction of its persecution of people for heresy under in 1816, under Pope Pius VII, and the federal government of the United States of America, in the twenty-first century, is prosecuting people for seditious rhetoric?
The flames of Satan's dwellings are stoked by the souls of tyrants, the most abhorrent of animals, and these fucks are no exception.
Besides the Stones, the other defendants are Tina Mae Stone and Joshua Stone
Well, that's clarifying. Are Keith and Mick also in that photo somewhere?
speaking of Sedition = one would think all the @#*($ "9/11 truthers" should be in the slammer if
'mouthing off stupid shit about the government'/'inciting insurrection' were actually a crime.
The Waffle House guys, though? Terrorists, your game is through! America rests easy knowing they are protected from... uh... guys... like that.
I think i now understand how Santorum is actually still in contention for a presidential nomination. We are a nation of fucking morons.
Oh.... but the caption on that linked photo (page 2 of story)....OOOOOOOOMMMMMMGGGGG!!! is *priceless* =
This is the confidential informant on whom the government's case rests. (This photo was included in the divorce filing of his first marriage. The woman in the photo is not his first wife.) He's currently out on bail and awaiting trial on charges of sexually molesting the underage daughters of his second wife.
I think that could have only been improved in this way = "...The woman in the photo is not his first wife. Also, the woman in the photo is not a woman."
Yeah I could only read a few paragraphs about that guy before I vomited in my mouth a little and had to stop.
As far as the Hutarees are concerned, I don't know much about them specifically, but it sounds like the governments case comes down to "respect my authoratah!" I think it would set a very bad precedent if they are found guilty, to put it lightly.
When he was eighteen, he married a fourteen-year-old girl. He cheated on her extravagantly, and then one day, while performing his duties for his company, JoJo's Repo, he met a woman named Leann. She worked for a loan shop in Anderson, and he took up with her and wound up marrying her.
Unlike his first wife, Leann was a grown woman, and she had two daughters. One of them was around eleven when Joe and Leann got married in 2000. The other was younger. In early 2010, the younger daughter went to the Anderson County sheriff with a complaint that Joe Sims had molested her. After his home was searched and his computers impounded, Sims called the sheriff's detective. He said, "You can take anything you want, you ain't going to find nothing." The search of his computers revealed what the arrest warrant describes as "multiple photographic images ... which depicts minors in various stages of undress and also engaged in sexual activity."
This month's Esquire has the best extended reporting on another case of sleazy government informants inticing some angry white men into saying or planning things that the government can then make a "big terror bust" on, the Georgia "Waffle House terrorism" case, which again, as with the Hutaree's and even more so, is much government effort that isn't really protecting anyone from anything.
This department makes arrests... that's what we do. I want to see numbers. If your numbers aren't up, you'll be standing tall before the man...
When will you rebel scum learn? We have to destroy free speech to save free speech, and if we have to arm potentially dangerous criminals, so fuckin' be it.
Okay, I can't find it in any of the linked articles, but what law are these nitwits accused of breaking? Which section of the US code lists sedition as an offense? Because last I checked, the Alien & Sedition Acts went out the window a looong time ago.
conspiring to commit sedition as i understand it gets around that pesky overt acts thang (y'know, what separates ACTUAL crime from mere "smack talk"),
look at this shit "" The defendants are accused of conspiring to someday ambush and kill a police officer, then attack the funeral procession with explosives and trigger a broader revolt against the U.S. government."
that's utter rubbish, and clear sham prosecution
calling that a crime is like saying "somebody i'm going lose weight" constitutes going on a diet
conspiracy, attempt and other such inchoate crimes require an OVERT ACT for a reason.
this "sedition" crap is just a way to get around the pesky "overt act" thang and to criminalize expressing opinions, which runs contrary to everything the 1st amendment represents
Anyone else feel safer knowing that now the president has the power to order the assassination of people like this without a trial simply by calling them enemy combatants? No?
Once we pull out of Afghanistan, those drones have to go somewhere. I'm guessing that at first they will promise (LOL) that the drones won't carry weapons and will be for surveillance only. Get the public used to them flying overhead, first.
Yeah, instead of a SWAT member possibly stubbing his toe while getting out of the SWAT tank, they can just send a drone to fire a missile and take out a house along with all its occupants.
if they were TRULY planning to kill an officer, iow something more than vague smack talk about "someday" doing it, then the almighty investigators could have waited for an OVERT act.
the fact that they didn't strongly suggests to me either piss poor procedure or what i suspect is more likely - that they knew it was just smack talk, so they said "fuck it, let's just arrest, overcharge and scare the fuck out of these guys."
interestingly (this was a busy week), i had to kick in two doors this week (with my jackboots natch) and in one case a rather large doberman stampeded towards me as i did so
incorrect. those are different (under some state standards), since these are inchoate crimes
no minor NEED be involved in an inchoate sex crime of that nature just like no live person need be involved to charge attempted murder
iow, if you see what you THINK is john smith, sleeping in a sleeping bag, and pump lead into the sleeping bag, that's attempted murder
EVEN IF there is no person in the sleeping bag, and it's just a dummy.
contrast with THIS case (the hutaree case), where no ACTUAL crime/overt act occurred
in the catch a predator series, people MADE overt acts (to put it mildly), they were just mistaken in their beliefs about who they were contacting
again, it's analogous to the attempted murder case i just explained and entirely distinguishable from the hutaree case
iirc, there actually was a case years ago (academy scenario) where a guy was charged and convicted of attempted murder when he plugged what he thought was a sleeping person he wanted to kill
turns out the coroner later determined the person he shot at had died in his sleep earlier. thus the crime clearly was NOT murder, since you can't kill a dead person
the crime was ATTEMPTED murder
that the person was ACTUALLY dead, has ZERO bearing on the attempted murder. what mattered was the person's intent, reasonable belief, and overt act to commit what he BELIEVED would result in murder
So fellas, how has our Sedition-Sting-Program (aka, the front called "Reason Magazine") been doing? I would figure by now we should have at least a few dozen potential cases..... Whoa! This is a goldmine!.... hmmm. Who's this one... "Warty"? and what does "Lethal Mind Rape" mean? oh, well, it at least sounds like a crime. Get out the van and start haulin em in! This is more evidence than we'd ever need!
except you can expand the definition of nannystatism to fit whatever conclusion you want, but it's ultimately a semantical wank, and just weakens a term by making it overbroad
we both agree that nannystatism as well as thoughtcrime enforcement is wrong, i am just not going to play the semantical wank of munging the terms
assume arguendo, one or more of these nimrods WOULD have carried through on their smacktalk at some time in the future. (not that i believe this, but assume it to be the case).
that doesn't justify the prosecution for thoughtcrime
PROCESS ANALYSIS and RULE OF LAW bitches!
the point is that what they are charging these nimrods with isn't, and shouldn't be a crime,not if the 1st amendment means anything
i don't agree with any thoughtcrime laws. but then i am used to you making unfounded statements you pull out of your ass. please explain what thoughtcrime laws i support (hint: i support none)
i agree with current case law, where even advocacy of violence is constitutoonally protected (generally speaking, unless it meets specific true threat standards)
imo, case law is TOO restrictive on speech rights, fwiw
to my knowledge, i have never enforced a thoughtcrime law.
i'd love to be edumacated otherwise, but i can't recall any case where i did.
in fact, i can recall literally dozens of calls where "citizens" WANTED me to arrest people for thoughtcrime and/or clearly protected free speech and i told them ot have a nice fucking day
some were arguably libel/slander cases, but those are torts, not crimes (in my state)
imo, WA cyberstalking statute is clearly overbroad and unconstitutional, but i've never enforced any such provision of it.
now THIS imo should clearly result in officer discipline. not sure if SPD has a policy that officers must use their in car audiovideo when equipped, on traffic stops, but they SHOULD
and any officer who doesn't do so, should be saddled with a presumption that complaints made against him are valid.
iow, if you are not willing to be on camera, SPD, get another fucking job!
(note: his threat about the robbery thing, since not carried through, is basically smack talk, but still CLEARLY not professional and still SHOULD be disciplined)
Wasn't there an H&R post a couple weeks back about some city in Michigan OKing citizens groups to do their own policing? What the hell's the difference?
Let me clarify this for you: federal prosecutors may have filed these charges, but their shit-eating lapdogs at the local cop shop happily helped round these guys up, because cops like shitting all over civilians' freedom and being triggermen for the Total Control State. Just like the shit-eaters in local law enforcement eagerly participated in raids on medical marijuana facilities across the state of Montana in an exquisitely choreographed display of power and intimidation staged for the benefit of the Montana State Legislature as they were preparing to vote on whether or not to effectively end the availability of medical pot in this state.
I don't respect you, Stupid. I may fear and despise you, but I definitely don't respect you. And you can sputter and cough and yell "BUT SERIOUSLY, YOU GUYS, I'M A LIBERTARIAN!!!" until your empty little head falls off, but I won't cut you any slack.
U.S. Attorney Christopher Graveline told jurors Monday that members of anti-government Hutaree wanted to kill a police officer as a springboard to a broader rebellion against the U.S. government.
If such a plan were even remotely viable, either Los Zetas or the Gulf Cartel would rule Texas and Southern California.
Serious question: does David Brock commit sedition or otherwise threaten the public peace, with his paranoid ramblings, investigations, gun-toting personal assistant, and the rest? Was making a movie about GWB's assassination sedition, incitement? If my police department picks up a vagrant who mutters darkly about killing the mayor, should the police department loan the vagrant a 12 gauge and cruiser?
Well, this is a sympathetic crew, but I really don't understand how this case even got to court.
best ck the backgroud of these guys before jumping into the fire w them.
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I have an idea that would end a bunch of these things. Make it illegal for agents of the federal government to provide materiel or support to persons they believe to be enemies of the United States, even under the pretense of infiltrating and gather evidence against them.
So no more "gunwalking"?
How are you going to catch domestic terrorists if you don't encourage their thoughts and provide them with materials that they could never have obtained on their own?
You can't catch these people unless you first create them.
fucking entrapment... how does it work?
When it comes to drugs and national security, anything goes.
He said it was the undercover agent who supplied the van, gas and a secret camera that captured Stone on video.
That tells me all I need to know right there. Case should be thrown out.
So what if the guy didn't have the coin to act on this thoughts.
The fact is that he had the thoughts!
Execute him!
it's not even entrapment. entrapment means enticing somebody to commit a crime they were not disposed to commit
since these guys didn't do a crime in the first place (sedition? cmon. get fucking real), it can't be entrapment
what it IS, is a sham prosecution
calling it entrapment concedes they actually DID a crime
which they didn't, as far as i am concerned
Dude, you can't wait until they actually act on their shit talk.
I mean, they were talking about killing a Holy Enforcer of the Sacred Government Scripture!
Officer safety!
By the time they acted a policeman would be dead!
i can wait until they commit an overt act. i'm like all patient and shit
and of course by NOT waiting, you never confirm whether it was an ACTUAL conspiracy, or just a bunch of smack talk
it strongly suggests the latter
i am pretty sure law enforcement can survive smack talk.
heck, we survive this blog.
dunphy... don't give 'em any ideas. They're itching to round up the posters on here and charge them with dubious crimes like sedition.
if there is one thing i am completely confident of, it is despite our basement dwelling nerds' delusion that they are doing grand things in the fight for justice by engaging in circle jerks of bigoted ignorance, or half-assed "journalists" polemical screeds devoid of even the slightest understanding of UOF principles, let alone fair journalism, nobody from the govt. is itching to round up the reason blogerati or their "journalist" handlers, because... well, they are about as scary to them as raw milk...
oops
wait a second!
RAW MILK!?
Dunphy, you dangerous, dirty BASTARD!!!
i have a buddy who made breast milk cheese. if he actually tried to sell it, i would imagine the SWAT team would have beaten him like a baby seal
"enticing", not "inticing".
I think he meant "inciting",/i>, personally.
HTML shall be my downfall...
Why not both, mashed together then?
Oh.
Neither an enticer nor an inciter be. . . .
One very amusing phenomenon when it comes to revolutionary or seditious groups without a rich sugar daddy is that often the informants or police infiltrators are the only ones paying their dues on time. In some cases, the informants are the ones keeping the organizations solvent! 🙂
In the Paranoia RPG, there is a scenario with a secret society whose membership is 100% spies from other secret societies.
Of course, no one knows this.
It's scary how reasonable Paranoia seems, some days.
Remeber: trust no one and keep your laser handy!
see: PJ ORourke and the baltimore years
Just the other day I was wondering what happened to these people. So the trial is only now just beginning. Speedy justice is the American Way.
The Holy see began a definitive reduction of its persecution of people for heresy under in 1816, under Pope Pius VII, and the federal government of the United States of America, in the twenty-first century, is prosecuting people for seditious rhetoric?
The flames of Satan's dwellings are stoked by the souls of tyrants, the most abhorrent of animals, and these fucks are no exception.
*See
I really need to proofread, furious or not. "in 1816, under Pope Pius VII
Besides the Stones, the other defendants are Tina Mae Stone and Joshua Stone
Well, that's clarifying. Are Keith and Mick also in that photo somewhere?
speaking of Sedition = one would think all the @#*($ "9/11 truthers" should be in the slammer if
'mouthing off stupid shit about the government'/'inciting insurrection' were actually a crime.
The Waffle House guys, though? Terrorists, your game is through! America rests easy knowing they are protected from... uh... guys... like that.
I think i now understand how Santorum is actually still in contention for a presidential nomination. We are a nation of fucking morons.
Oh.... but the caption on that linked photo (page 2 of story)....OOOOOOOOMMMMMMGGGGG!!! is *priceless* =
This is the confidential informant on whom the government's case rests. (This photo was included in the divorce filing of his first marriage. The woman in the photo is not his first wife.) He's currently out on bail and awaiting trial on charges of sexually molesting the underage daughters of his second wife.
I think that could have only been improved in this way = "...The woman in the photo is not his first wife. Also, the woman in the photo is not a woman."
http://www.esquire.com/feature.....z1mO8GNKK0
Besides the Stones, the other defendants are Tina Mae Stone and Joshua Stone
Well, that's clarifying.
comment thief.
right wing discontent = domestic terrorist
left wing discontent = truth to power
Didn't you get the memo?
All the left wing loonies are busy working at the whitehouse.
Yeah I could only read a few paragraphs about that guy before I vomited in my mouth a little and had to stop.
As far as the Hutarees are concerned, I don't know much about them specifically, but it sounds like the governments case comes down to "respect my authoratah!" I think it would set a very bad precedent if they are found guilty, to put it lightly.
Ding ding ding.
A real class act:
This must have been before Firefox came out with Private Browsing Porn Mode.
Sug, is this one of the informants?
Yes, the one that GILMORE was referring to above. That was a quote from G's linked Esquire article.
Thanks, didn't RTFA yet, obviously.
This month's Esquire has the best extended reporting on another case of sleazy government informants inticing some angry white men into saying or planning things that the government can then make a "big terror bust" on, the Georgia "Waffle House terrorism" case, which again, as with the Hutaree's and even more so, is much government effort that isn't really protecting anyone from anything.
This department makes arrests... that's what we do. I want to see numbers. If your numbers aren't up, you'll be standing tall before the man...
When will you rebel scum learn? We have to destroy free speech to save free speech, and if we have to arm potentially dangerous criminals, so fuckin' be it.
Okay, I can't find it in any of the linked articles, but what law are these nitwits accused of breaking? Which section of the US code lists sedition as an offense? Because last I checked, the Alien & Sedition Acts went out the window a looong time ago.
I'm guessing, but the feds are probably charging them with Conspiracy to do Naughty Things, only without much in the way of "overt acts".
A conspiracy without overt acts is just people talking.
conspiring to commit sedition as i understand it gets around that pesky overt acts thang (y'know, what separates ACTUAL crime from mere "smack talk"),
look at this shit "" The defendants are accused of conspiring to someday ambush and kill a police officer, then attack the funeral procession with explosives and trigger a broader revolt against the U.S. government."
that's utter rubbish, and clear sham prosecution
calling that a crime is like saying "somebody i'm going lose weight" constitutes going on a diet
give me a fucking break
In this age of Terrorism?? you can't be too careful.
in the Time of Chimpanzees(tm) i was a monkee
this is a fucking idiotic prosecution
conspiracy, attempt and other such inchoate crimes require an OVERT ACT for a reason.
this "sedition" crap is just a way to get around the pesky "overt act" thang and to criminalize expressing opinions, which runs contrary to everything the 1st amendment represents
what a bunch of ginned up nonsense.
Anyone else feel safer knowing that now the president has the power to order the assassination of people like this without a trial simply by calling them enemy combatants? No?
Good point. Next time they won't have to go through the bother of a trial.
Once we pull out of Afghanistan, those drones have to go somewhere. I'm guessing that at first they will promise (LOL) that the drones won't carry weapons and will be for surveillance only. Get the public used to them flying overhead, first.
Yeah, instead of a SWAT member possibly stubbing his toe while getting out of the SWAT tank, they can just send a drone to fire a missile and take out a house along with all its occupants.
Warrant served, motherfucker!
Warrants are so quaint.
Now all you need is an edict.
We'll "deem" that warrants to be in our possession!
droooooooooooooooooooooooooooones!
Who do you suppose rounded these people up at gunpoint based on the "ginned up nonsense" embodied in the complaint?
Probably some libertarians. You know, the kind of libertarians who believe in the Precautionary Principle and enforcing the nanny state at gunpoint.
what the fuck does this have to do with the nanny state?
this case has to do with prosecuting people for thought crimes, in direct contradiction of the 1st amendment
the nanny state sucks, but this has nothing to do with nannystatism
it has to do with thoughtcrime, which scares me a lot fucking more, frankly
What if you were the officer they planned to kill, huh?
You want to wait until they act, or make the world a safer place by locking them up?
last i checked, talking smack isn't a crime.
if they were TRULY planning to kill an officer, iow something more than vague smack talk about "someday" doing it, then the almighty investigators could have waited for an OVERT act.
the fact that they didn't strongly suggests to me either piss poor procedure or what i suspect is more likely - that they knew it was just smack talk, so they said "fuck it, let's just arrest, overcharge and scare the fuck out of these guys."
"fuck it, let's just arrest, overcharge and scare the fuck out of these guys."
How is that different from normal procedure?
No dogs were killed first?
interestingly (this was a busy week), i had to kick in two doors this week (with my jackboots natch) and in one case a rather large doberman stampeded towards me as i did so
i did not shoot him (or her, not sure which)
dunphy - the entire "to catch a predator" series on msnbc is thought crime since no minors are ever involved. yet the convictions follow
incorrect. those are different (under some state standards), since these are inchoate crimes
no minor NEED be involved in an inchoate sex crime of that nature just like no live person need be involved to charge attempted murder
iow, if you see what you THINK is john smith, sleeping in a sleeping bag, and pump lead into the sleeping bag, that's attempted murder
EVEN IF there is no person in the sleeping bag, and it's just a dummy.
contrast with THIS case (the hutaree case), where no ACTUAL crime/overt act occurred
in the catch a predator series, people MADE overt acts (to put it mildly), they were just mistaken in their beliefs about who they were contacting
again, it's analogous to the attempted murder case i just explained and entirely distinguishable from the hutaree case
iirc, there actually was a case years ago (academy scenario) where a guy was charged and convicted of attempted murder when he plugged what he thought was a sleeping person he wanted to kill
turns out the coroner later determined the person he shot at had died in his sleep earlier. thus the crime clearly was NOT murder, since you can't kill a dead person
the crime was ATTEMPTED murder
that the person was ACTUALLY dead, has ZERO bearing on the attempted murder. what mattered was the person's intent, reasonable belief, and overt act to commit what he BELIEVED would result in murder
You really meant librarians, right?
So fellas, how has our Sedition-Sting-Program (aka, the front called "Reason Magazine") been doing? I would figure by now we should have at least a few dozen potential cases..... Whoa! This is a goldmine!.... hmmm. Who's this one... "Warty"? and what does "Lethal Mind Rape" mean? oh, well, it at least sounds like a crime. Get out the van and start haulin em in! This is more evidence than we'd ever need!
"Thoughtcrime" has nothing to do with the State determining what constitutes acceptable behavior on every level!
That's just silly.
except you can expand the definition of nannystatism to fit whatever conclusion you want, but it's ultimately a semantical wank, and just weakens a term by making it overbroad
we both agree that nannystatism as well as thoughtcrime enforcement is wrong, i am just not going to play the semantical wank of munging the terms
assume arguendo, one or more of these nimrods WOULD have carried through on their smacktalk at some time in the future. (not that i believe this, but assume it to be the case).
that doesn't justify the prosecution for thoughtcrime
PROCESS ANALYSIS and RULE OF LAW bitches!
the point is that what they are charging these nimrods with isn't, and shouldn't be a crime,not if the 1st amendment means anything
So you only agree with the thoughtcrime laws you agree with?
Thanks.
i don't agree with any thoughtcrime laws. but then i am used to you making unfounded statements you pull out of your ass. please explain what thoughtcrime laws i support (hint: i support none)
i agree with current case law, where even advocacy of violence is constitutoonally protected (generally speaking, unless it meets specific true threat standards)
imo, case law is TOO restrictive on speech rights, fwiw
He said it was the undercover agent who supplied the van, gas and a secret camera that captured Stone on video.
So, the criminals bought their own doughnuts.
GUILTY!
God bless my home state...we are soooo dooooomed.
this is a federal prosecution. the state it occurred in is irrelevant
(hint: US attorneys work for the federal govt. and charge crimes that have a federal nexus, NOT state crimes)
please explain what thoughtcrime laws i support (hint: i support none)
"Support" or "enforce"?
Embrace your inner goose-stepper, Fearless.
You don't want to be little people, do you?
support OR enforce.
to my knowledge, i have never enforced a thoughtcrime law.
i'd love to be edumacated otherwise, but i can't recall any case where i did.
in fact, i can recall literally dozens of calls where "citizens" WANTED me to arrest people for thoughtcrime and/or clearly protected free speech and i told them ot have a nice fucking day
some were arguably libel/slander cases, but those are torts, not crimes (in my state)
imo, WA cyberstalking statute is clearly overbroad and unconstitutional, but i've never enforced any such provision of it.
Never enforced a thoughtcrime law AS YOU DEFINE THOUGHTCRIME. That must be how you keep your libertarian cred.
yawn. this is really boring trolling
i am sure you have never murdered a hottentot.
as you define murder. and hottentot.
that's pretty much a universal.
if you want to get into a semantical wank over what thoughtcrime MEANS, spare me
if you are really that bored, get a hobby
http://www.komonews.com/news/l.....66773.html
now THIS imo should clearly result in officer discipline. not sure if SPD has a policy that officers must use their in car audiovideo when equipped, on traffic stops, but they SHOULD
and any officer who doesn't do so, should be saddled with a presumption that complaints made against him are valid.
iow, if you are not willing to be on camera, SPD, get another fucking job!
(note: his threat about the robbery thing, since not carried through, is basically smack talk, but still CLEARLY not professional and still SHOULD be disciplined)
period. full stop
There isn't even a small chance this conviction would survive appellate review on the facts as given above.
Wasn't there an H&R post a couple weeks back about some city in Michigan OKing citizens groups to do their own policing? What the hell's the difference?
Nice footwork, Fosdick.
Let me clarify this for you: federal prosecutors may have filed these charges, but their shit-eating lapdogs at the local cop shop happily helped round these guys up, because cops like shitting all over civilians' freedom and being triggermen for the Total Control State. Just like the shit-eaters in local law enforcement eagerly participated in raids on medical marijuana facilities across the state of Montana in an exquisitely choreographed display of power and intimidation staged for the benefit of the Montana State Legislature as they were preparing to vote on whether or not to effectively end the availability of medical pot in this state.
I don't respect you, Stupid. I may fear and despise you, but I definitely don't respect you. And you can sputter and cough and yell "BUT SERIOUSLY, YOU GUYS, I'M A LIBERTARIAN!!!" until your empty little head falls off, but I won't cut you any slack.
Die in a fire.
+1
U.S. Attorney Christopher Graveline told jurors Monday that members of anti-government Hutaree wanted to kill a police officer as a springboard to a broader rebellion against the U.S. government.
If such a plan were even remotely viable, either Los Zetas or the Gulf Cartel would rule Texas and Southern California.
With armed drones I could solve this problem.....
Serious question: does David Brock commit sedition or otherwise threaten the public peace, with his paranoid ramblings, investigations, gun-toting personal assistant, and the rest? Was making a movie about GWB's assassination sedition, incitement? If my police department picks up a vagrant who mutters darkly about killing the mayor, should the police department loan the vagrant a 12 gauge and cruiser?
Well, this is a sympathetic crew, but I really don't understand how this case even got to court.