Anonymous Declares War on Orlando

The hacktivist group known as Anonymous has announced it will begin targeting the city of Orlando, FL, reports The Tech Herald. The reason? The city's campaign against Food Not Bombs, a group whose members the city of Orlando has repeatedly arrested for feeding homeless residents.

Food Not Bombs, an organization that has been sharing vegan and vegetarian meals with the homeless in Orlando, Florida, has gained support from Anonymous after members were arrested for city ordinance violations. For their part, Anonymous has said that the city's actions are a clear declaration of war.

[…]

Anonymous said that they will begin a massive campaign against Orlando.

"Everyday we will launch a new DDoS attack on a different Target. We will continue to E-Mail millions of people in 50 countries with the Boycott Orlando campaign message…," the message added.

"Tomorrow morning at exactly 10:00 AM ET Anonymous will remove from the World Wide Web - www.orlandofloridaguide.com - and it shall remain down until 6:00 PM ET. We will also E-Mail Bomb and Black Fax the owners of this site, identified as one Utopia, Inc."

In addition to the announcement of further attacks, the message also encouraged local police and other officials to expose insider information, sending it to LocalLeaks.tk.

"In our experience a government that acts this way is also corrupt."

Reason on Orlando's homeless-feeding ban here and here.

Check out what an eleven-year-old boy and his brother are doing to overturn a similar ban in Texas.

Baylen Linnekin is a lawyer and the executive director of Keep Food Legal, a nonprofit that promotes culinary freedom, the idea that people should be free to make and consume whatever commestibles they prefer. For more information and to join or donate, go here now.

Comments

[Sinic]

"In our experience a government that acts this way is also corrupt."

Can't lose with that argument. They're all corrupt so their corruption might as well be related to their actions that you don't like.

[Episiarch]

Nice. But they better be careful: if the mouse feels threatened, they could be in trouble.

[Pro Libertate]

Little known fact: All character actors are all ex-military, trained in special operations. The costumes are made out of a carbon nanotube composite, resistant to small arms fire, shrapnel, and fire. Parts of the costumes also contain hidden weapons--for instance, Goofy's giant shoes and Mickey's ears.

[Episiarch]

I thought it was Goofy's crotch. I mean, that's the "weapon" he showed me when I was there as a kid...OH MY GOD

[Pro Libertate]

See, he was being literal! You weren't abused after all!

[Goofy]

Gawrsh!

[Pro Libertate]

Ah, the distinctive onomatopoeia of Goofy's weapon of choice, the flamethrower.

[Mo]

The vast difference between the treatment of Goofy and Pluto has always bothered me. Both are dogs. However, Goofy is treated as a peer and equal to Mickey, Donald, etc. However, Pluto is owned and treated as a pet.

[Pro Libertate]

It's slavery. Pluto, of course, as the same species as Goofy, is capable of speech. Before the lobotomy, that is.

[Brett L]

Pretty sure the ears on that water tower are actually parabolic microwave painwave emitters. Or else they just play the Small World theme at earshattering volume and force your brain to bang its way out of your skull in a sucidal escape attempt.

[Pro Libertate]

Also, Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea were closed at Disney World because the armored vehicles and submarine were offered to the U.S. to support the War on Terror.

[Mongo]

Mr. Toad's Wild Ride is vastly underrated as a ride....

[spencer]

Mr. Toad's Wild Ride doesn't exist anymore.

[Pro Libertate]

A friend of mine was restoring it virtually for a while.

[Mongo]

Nice.

[Pro Libertate]

If reality doesn't work for you, make your own.

[SugarFree]

That monorail is some mighty vulnerable infrastructure.

[Episiarch]

They say the Small World ride is both more effective, and more cruel, than waterboarding.

[Pro Libertate]

I can't say much more than this: Don't trust anyone who went on that ride. Ever.

[Episiarch]

I've been on the ride a bunch of times. You're right not to trust me.

HA HA HA HA HA

[Pro Libertate]

Ah, another It's a Small World reprogramming victim.

Every single post by Episiarch serves, in some subtle way, the devious purposes of the Mouse. Be warned!

[M. Mouse]

And people wonder why the deaf don't want cochlear implants.

[Tonio]

BTW, Disneyworld is located within the Reedy Creek Improvement District which the Florida legislature created just for Disney. RCID is the equivalent of a county, even though it's essentially a (very large) private estate/campus.

FNB and their allies are in conflict with the City of Orlando and are wisely not engaging with RCID/Disney directly.

[Isaac Bartram]

Disney property also contains two incorporated cities, Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista.

Between them and the improvement district they have a huge advantage in builing varous infrastructure projects.

All building inspections on Disney construction jobs are performed by Disney employes as duly authorised building inspectors under Florida law.

They even have their own police force. Those costumed cops are actually designated peace officers under Florida law.

[Isaac Bartram]

Also, Disney is several miles outside the O-town city limits. Most visitors to the parks never get anywhere near downtown Orlando.

[Pro Libertate]

Visit lovely Kissimmee!

[Isaac Bartram]

Disney is almost as far from Cow-town as it is from O-town.

Sprawl has crept out to meet it, but most of that development is in unincorporated Orange or Osceola Counties, rather than in either of the cities.

And Disney property itself still has thousands of undeveloped acres.

Interestingly, Disney did not have the state create a city charter for its planned community of Stepfordsorry, Celebration.

[Pro Libertate]

Have you been to Celebration? I've driven by it, but I've never been there. I assume the robotic spouses are extra?

[Isaac Bartram]

I took my mother to some medcal specialist at the medical center there a few years ago. I'll grant it is outstanding. But I found the town kind of plastic. I kept wondering if the backs of the houses looked like the backstage in the theme parks.

In case you don't know "backstage" is what the Disney employeescast calls the employees only areas.

I spent quite a while working on several projects there during the original EPCOT project.

I'm afraid the residential part's new urbanization doesn't really appeal to me. And from what I've heard the planning covenants are really restrictive and enforced by a HOA on steroids.

[Pro Libertate]

I can only imagine. There's something simultaneously appealing and appalling about the whole business.

Wasn't EPCOT originally supposed to be people living in futuristic bliss?

[Isaac Bartram]

Yes, but Walt died and then the money men looked at the plan again and found it wanting from the pecuniary perspective.

[Pro Libertate]

Thus are we robbed of a community with flying cars.

[Isaac Bartram]

Most visitors to the parks never get anywhere near downtown Orlando.

Although the ones that fly in do actually get withing the city limits since Orlando International Airport is within Orlando city limits. But it's quite a ways from downtown.

[katy_hoover]

Little known fact: All character actors are all ex-military, trained in special operations. The costumes are made out of a carbon nanotube composite, resistant to small arms fire, shrapnel, and fire. Parts of the costumes also contain hidden weapons--for instance, Goofy's giant shoes and Mickey's ears.
@ I paid $32.67 for a XBOX 360 and my mom got a 17 inch Toshiba laptop for $94.83 being delivered to
our house tomorrow by FedEX. I will never again pay expensive retail prices at stores. I even sold a
46 inch HDTV to my boss for $650 and it only cost me $52.78 to get. Here is the website we using to get
all this stuff, BetaSell.com

[sarcasmic]

Check out what an eleven-year-old boy and his brother are doing to overturn a similar ban in Texas.

That will never happen. If the schools start donating leftovers to the homeless shelter, then the shelter will become dependent upon the donations. Soon the school will be intentionally wasting food at the tax payer's expense. At least I assume that is the argument used for the law that forbids the donating of leftovers.

[spencer]

That's the argument we used as a retail outlet to not donate the leftovers at the end of the day. Some "good hearted" and bad brained employee would end up baking scores of muffins near closing that needed to be discarded and donated. Nipped it in the bud right away.

[The Hamilton]

God forbid a manger would notice someone baking stuff that didn't need to be baked. Better off screwing needy people. Asshat.

[Fluffy]

Actually, any policy that incentivizes employees to create waste will end up creating waste.

The way you "manage" your way into not having that problem is by...writing a policy mandating all waste be thrown away.

[MP]

From that article:

It's a journey their father says will have a lifelong effect on Ethan and Ian.

Oh yeah it will. Once the intractability and the irrationality of government regulators is experienced he'll be a cynical bastard for life.

Just like us.

[Paul]

My experience about leftover food from restaurants is there are health code problems. Once the food has been handled and cooked, it would now have to meet certain health code restrictions.

I remember talking to a restaurateur about this many years ago.

[GILMORE]

Food Not Bombs, an organization that has been sharing vegan and vegetarian meals with the homeless

Ppppph. Why not make them accept christ as their savior too, or vote for the next Green candidate? Fucking self important assholes can't just feed people... no, they have to feed them on their own personal concept of an ethical diet. No ham and cheese for you, vietnam vet-guy...

remember the 'charity' in france that served Pork soup to the homeless specifically because they didn't want Muslims mooching off them? I wonder how these guys treat those that demand a Hot Dog or something.

[Tonio]

It's their food, their rules, Gilmore. The homeless don't have to accept.

And why do you assume that all homeless are non-vegetarian?

Lots of the world subsists on a beans and rice diet.

Would you likewise insist that a jewish charity serve non-kosher dishes because their might be a goyische diner?

You, Sir, are an idiot.

[GILMORE]

Of course no one has to accept, and I never suggested they did.

Your point about teh joos and Kosherness is exactly my point, my not-so-bleeding-heart friend. They're no different than the Pork Soup people.

And I'm sure the homeless in Orlando have plenty of options, right?

[Tonio]

Why not make them accept christ as their savior too...

You're still an idiot, Gilmore. Quit while you're ahead.

[Cheeseburger]

According to a friend of mine who lives in Orlando, there are several food lines/homeless kitchens in the general area of the park FNB was using. My friend pegged this latest FNB protest as an attempt at attracting some of the media attention in town for the Casey Anthony trial.

[Paul]

And why do you assume that all homeless are non-vegetarian?

Because vegetables don't pack the taste with all the cigarettes, Colt 45 and meth.

Although in this guy's case, he's updating his facebook page on his smart phone so he may be more into the health scene.

Other than that, I agree, their food, their rules. If you're not that hungry, go elsewhere.

[TANSTAAFL]

"Fucking self important assholes can't just feed people"

Seriously?

You are bitching about people who are feeding the homeless and using incentive to inspire a change (rather than coercion or force) all the while defying the government and its intrusion into private affairs and unnecessary use of force.

You should be kissing their ass not bitching about them, you asshat

[GILMORE]

I say fuck em anyway.

And if you don't get the point why, I'm not going to waste time explaining it to you.

... champions of individual liberty? not so much.

Food Not Bombs is one of the fastest growing revolutionary movements and is gaining momentum throughout the world. There are hundreds of autonomous chapters sharing free vegetarian food with hungry people and protesting war and poverty. Food Not Bombs is not a charity. This energetic grassroots movement is active throughout the Americas, Europe, Africa, the Middle East, Asia and Australia. Food Not Bombs is organizing for peace and an end to the occupations of Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. For nearly 30 years the movement has worked to end hunger and has supported actions to stop the globalization of the economy, restrictions to the movements of people, end exploitation and the destruction of the earth.
...

Food Not Bombs works in coalition with groups like Earth First!, The Leonard Peltier Defense Committee, Anarchist Black Cross, the IWW, Homes Not Jails, Anti Racist Action, Farm Animal Rights Movement, In Defense of Animals, the Free Radio Movement and other organizations on the cutting edge of positive social change and resistance to the new global austerity program.

I suspect given an opportuntity they'd fucking want all of us 'classical liberal' types to renounce private property and spend a few years in a fucking re-education camp. Serving Vegan gruel, of course.

[M. Mouse]

Self-importance, it's what's for dinner.

[TANSTAAFL]

Hate their message all you like, their methods (in this case) are libertarian and they are defying restrictive government policy to boot

[TANSTAAFL]

If every group with which I disagreed used methods other than coercion and force to push their message - call me content.

Concentrate on the ones that use coercion and force not these folks who are providing a desired service in exchange for listening or reading their message...cooky as you may deem it

[Citizen Nothing]

I think Mencken would agree with Gilmore's point.

[Citizen Nothing]

As do I, FWIW.

[Rhywun]

Me too. I think their "message" is a little confused. If feeding the homeless is so damn important, what's with the vegan bombs and whatnot.

[GILMORE]

Go read their manifesto at their website. The point seems mainly to get arrested. Feeding people is nice, but more like a means to an end as opposed to the rasion d'etre.

blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blah social justice blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

[Mo]

I wonder how these guys treat those that demand a Hot Dog or something.

I believe there's an old saying about beggars and choosers.

[GILMORE]

Ah, right.

Is that the one that explains why so many people choose to be beggars?

Someone recently explained 'crusty punks' to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusties

Crusties are distinctive for their unkempt appearance. They are associated with anti-capitalism,[2] road protests, squatting, raves and begging.[3]

I think that would be a cute way to introduce yourself on 'The Dating Game'. "Oh, I enjoy anti-capitalism, protests, long walks on the beach, begging..."

The reason I asked was because we have been getting them seasonally around the Wburg area for like the last 4-5 years. They ask for money then spit on you and call you bourgois scum. Or me at least.

http://articles.nydailynews.co.....roin-punks

The newcomers, who call themselves "gutter punks," are stirring outrage among residents and shopkeepers who charge the bums brawl on the sidewalk, shoplift and shoot heroin in trendy cafe bathrooms.

"It's like St. Marks in the '70s," said Williamsburg activist Philip DePaolo, referring to the notorious East Village hangout. "It's the bad old days all over again. There's crack and heroin all over the neighborhood."

The squatters, from middle-class families, hop freight trains to the city, where they can earn up to $150 a day panhandling in Manhattan. At night, like plenty of other borough commuters, they return to their homes: grubby hideaways inside boarded-up lots that pock the once-booming neighborhood.

"I've got to sleep somewhere and I might as well as well do it in Williamsburg," said Stuart, 22, a Florida college dropout.

I grew up in NYC in the 1980s mostly. I know what homelessness is like. I'm not entirely unsympathetic.

These kids however? ...

... let's say my feelings are mixed. Especially when they piss on my doorstep. Very very mixed.

[Bar Student]

These guys live year round in Austin. You can always tell them from the real homeless because they smell like pot and they always hide a pretty fancy backpack near them.

[Rhywun]

I knew to stay far away from Williamsburg when the hipsters colonized it a decade ago. Now this. Thank goodness the neighborhood is so easy to avoid if you don't live there.

[GILMORE]

Oh, do shut up.

And stay away. despite the rep, and scare stories like this... its still the best neighborhood in town more or less. But then, to each their own. Enjoy Hoboken, or whatever.

[Brett L]

Fuckin' Dragworms.

[SugarFree]

Food Not Bombs, an organization that has been sharing vegan and vegetarian meals with the homeless in Orlando, Florida

Those bastards! How dare they try to help the homeless without going through government so the bureaucrats and the cronies can get their piece.

[Hazel Meade]

I can assure you that the people in Food not Bombs are completely in favor of government and bureaucrats. They just think the government should be spending it's money on food, instead of bombs.

[GILMORE]

"Everyday we will launch a new DDoS attack on a different Target."

WalMart will be thrilled.

Also, "emailing millions of people around the world" to 'ban' Orlando should work beautifully. All they have to do is... not go to Orlando. I'm already doing my part!

[Bryan C]

Millions of protests created or saved!

[Fist of Etiquette]

However, [Texas] state laws are rigid and do not allow school districts to re-serve or donate unused food.

What it feels like to repeatedly bang your head against the brick wall of the nanny state is a lesson every kid should learn early.

[Phlogistan]

After hearing bout Turd Burgers last week. I praise this law applying to public school food service.

[SIV]

Did you ever try to eat that Food Not Bomb's stuff? I got a plate at a free outdoor concert once and it went straight in the trash after one bite.

[T]

I won't deny that you can make tasty vegetarian food, but it's a lot harder than most people think. And vegan food is a lost cause unless you like raw veg.

Of course, most people can't cook worth a happy crap, anyway, so the fact that most people who try can't cook vegetarian/vegan should come as no surprise.

[Episiarch]

It's actually very easy to make tasty vegetarian food; vegan is tougher, but doable. The question is, though--and I agree with Anthony Bourdain--why the hell would you?

[sarcasmic]

Here's a vegetarian recipe I learned from a former roommate that is very very tasty.

Beans: 1 can Chipotle in Adobo, use as much as you dare, dice it or run it through a food processor. Mix into a can or two of black beans.

Rice: Follow the directions on some long grain rice. I like to add a vegetable bullion cube for extra flavor.

Pico de gallo: 3 parts Diced tomatoes, 2 part diced onions, 1 part diced jalapenos (ratio is not set in stone). Diced cilantro, lime juice and salt to taste. He used powdered red jalapeno, I use fresh green ones.

Prepare beans, rice and pico ahead and refrigerate.

Assembly: In a pie tin coarsely crumple corn chips to cover bottom. Spoon on beans and rice. Heat in oven. When the smell fills the room you know it's hot. Spoon on the pico.
Enjoy!

It's also good topped with sliced grilled chicken or strip steak.

[Episiarch]

Dude: eggplant Parmesan. Fully vegetarian, fully delicious. You can even do it vegan if you use tofu cheese (though I wouldn't recommend it).

[sarcasmic]

I once worked at a Mexican restaurant that served tofu cheese play doh.

Good stuff!

[T]

Tofu cheese is a sin against humanity, Epi. You of all people should be aware of that.

[robc]

I order vegetarian about 50% of the time when Im at an Italian place. Not because I dont like meat, I just have a weird hatred of meat sauce and I like cheese stuffed pastas.

So it just happens that lots of time what I order doesnt have meat.

[Jeff P]

I have nothing against vegans, but the ones who eat mostly soy and lentil products designed to look like beef or chicken are laughable. It's like drawing lips on your fist before jerking off.

[Pro Libertate]

If the cow were a free cow and I paid it for its milk, is that okay? Because I don't see the problem, since taking the milk, freely given, doesn't injure the cow in any way.

[Fluffy]

Modern dairy cows suffer pretty severe pain if they aren't milked, and baby cows can't nurse enough to take the entire yield. We've pretty successfully bred the suckers to their purpose.

[Pro Libertate]

So by eschewing milk, vegans are torturing cows? Is that why so many vegans continue to use leather products? Cow hate?

[Paul]

Anthony Bourdaine "loved" vegetarians. Because his food cost went way down. He could shiv the customer $15 for Eggplan parmesan and it cost him nearly nothing.

[creech]

How can you screw up penne pasta and tomato sauce?

[Zeb]

You can make good tasting vegan food fairly easily as long as it involves lots of garlic and enough salt. Making vegan food that is not too heavy on starches and which provides adequate nutrition is the hard part.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Vegetarians are actually quite tasty

[Tonio]

@SIV: When I was participating in a homeless feeding program (not FNB) during the nineties, we were specifically told: nothing spicy or "challenging"; the homeless like it bland.

It's also possible that the meal you received was prepared by the culinarily inept.

If one is hungry enough, one's culinary standards lower.

[Paul]

It's also possible that the meal you received was prepared by the culinarily inept.

While this is true, your second statement still applies. If you're hungry enough, one's culinary standards lower. So culinary ineptness probably wouldn't matter.

But having a bit of experience with the homeless, there's probably truth to what SIV writes.

When finding things like public bathrooms can be a challenge... the jalapeno infused talapia is probably something you want to avoid.

[GILMORE]

Tonio|6.28.11 @ 11:34AM|#
@SIV: When I was participating in a homeless feeding program (not FNB) during the nineties, we were specifically told: nothing spicy or "challenging"; the homeless like it bland

Maybe where you live...

From my own experience working in soup kitchens/shelters in White Plains NY and in Brooklyn and the city....Not at all the case. Hot sauce was the #1 item on the menu. I saw a motherfucker put hot sauce on a Hostess Fruit Pie. I asked one of the other people working there what the deal was - they explained the majority of the people coming in either smoked crack or were fresh out of jail or were on some kind of psychoactive meds. Or all three. Crackheads cant taste anything because hitting the pipe basically burns out a lot of the nerves in the nostrils & throat, and they spice the shit out of things in order to convince their bodies that they've eaten. Your body needs flavor to know that its been fed and to kick in the digestive process appropriately. blah blah blah. The prison dudes were just used to putting hot sauce in the mac & cheese... and the crazies? I don't know. They liked it too.

Never met a vegan homeless crackhead, personally. I'm sure they have their own blog, somewhere though.

[Fluffy]

These guys are starting to be the Whale Wars of the internet.

[Matt Felch]

Sounds about right.

[Cheeseburger]

Is it wrong to want to see a whale boat turn a raft full of dirty hippies into dirty hippie chum?

[ClubMedSux]

This is why power concentrated in the hands of a few is scary, whether it's the government or a group of hackers... Anonymous's ability to fuck shit up is quite impressive, but I can't say I've confident in their ability to pick targets (even if I did think Orlando was stupid for going after Food Not Bombs).

[Matt Felch]

I think their ability to inflict harm is overrated at best.

[spencer]

^^THIS^^ they are pretty inept at actually doing anything.

[ClubMedSux]

In that case, they're very good at P.R. that convinces the media to write stories implying that they're very good at fucking shit up. A far less impressive feat than actually fucking shit up.

[mr simple]

"I'm freaking you out!"

"At most you're mildly annoying."

[Tonio]

It looks like Anonymous is targeting a private organization dedicated to boosting Orlando tourism, not the city government itself. Smart.

[Tyler]

Sigh. They're just making the governments case for completely regulating the internet.

[The Hamilton]

Only for brain-dead idiots who are easily swayed.

[T]

Like Congress?

[spencer]

They'd get more traction if their name was "Soy Bomb" or "Food and Bombs are not mutually exclusive. You can join us and give food to the homeless without opposing bombs in general. Also, you can give them meat if you'd like."

Now, an org with that name could get my backing.

[GILMORE]

+1

[BoscoH]

It would be so much easier to be a libertarian if Food not Bombs were serving chicken and beef to the homeless.

[Citizen Nothing]

Baby seals and eagle meat.

[yonemoto]

let them eat somalia.

[Hazel Meade]

Horse meat and raw milk.

[Sandi]

I took a shit in Orlando once.

[Swedish libertarian]

I have to admit that I honestly don't understand the typical (at least around here) libertarian hatred/dislike of vegetarians and vegans. There are many libertarians who for various reasons (ethical concerns, health, taste) don't eat meat. As long as they don't force anyone to eat or not eat something, what's the harm?

Maybe it's one of those American cultural things I just don't understand, like NASCAR or shaved pubic hair.

[Otto]

I think the main thing is that so many vegetarians & vegans tend to be statists / authoritarians of varying types.

There is certainly nothing inherent in vegetarianism or veganism that is anti-libertarian.

[Swedish libertarian]

The sad truth is that the majority of people tend to be statist/authoritarians of varying types.

[SugarFree]

Vegan/vegetarians and libertarians are two sides of the same coin... once a non-practitioner meets an asshole who happens to be one, it colors your perceptions of the whole group.

[PIRS]

I think part of it is the kind of moralizing that often goes along with it. I will not paint all vegans / vegatarians with a broad brush but they often remind me of Evangelical Christians of the worst type. The worst of the Evangelical Christians tend to overtly moralize the choices of others - many vegans and vegetarians tend to do the same. Perhaps things are different in Europe - but that is the way they are here.

[Swedish libertarian]

Self-righteous smugness is a pancultural phenomenon.

[Libertymike]

IMO, it is much harder for a real libertarian to be an asshole than a statist.

[yonemoto]

not hard at all. Just a heaping of passive-aggressiveness, smugness, and superiority. Of course, one of the three is totally justifiable, but that's just between us libertarians.

[GILMORE]

Swedish libertarian|6.28.11 @ 1:45PM|#
Self-righteous smugness is a pancultural phenomenon.

A universal truth, that.

Association of Vegans with progressive-liberal fuckwits may not be a universal truth.

However, its generally a handy rule of thumb.

[Hazel Meade]

Telling people what they should eat kind of conflicts with the general libertarian live-and-let-live attitude.

I have met a few libertarians who exhort other people to be more free in overly pushy terns, but usually it's the people with a specific moral agenda who do the pushing.

[SFC B]

I am yet to meet a currently-active vegetarian who wasn't willing to use force to compel those who prefer having the occasional animal-based dish to stop doing so. Maybe it is an American thing that a lot of our vegetarians are also statists, and I'm willing to agree that American libertarian vegetarians exist, but Lord knows I've never met one.

[Charles 3E]

I'm a libertarian vegetarian. I wouldn't forbid meat-eating by law, but I think regulations on the treatment of animals are an appropriate application of government's coercive power.

[JD]

Either way, you are proposing enforcement of your moral code by the government.

[PIRS]

Let me play Devil's advocate here for a moment. I disagree with the position he is taking but - if you were to ascribe at least some of the same rights to animals that we ascribe to humans his position would be a valid one. This is actually a similar argument that Pro-life libertarians make. From their perspective they oppose abortion BECAUSE they are libertarian, not despite it.

[JEP]

On principle, I'm against legislating morality, but I always bump into the idea that every law is someone's idea of what is "moral."

[Tulpa]

if you were to ascribe at least some of the same rights to animals that we ascribe to humans his position would be a valid one.

You can ascribe limited rights to animals, just like we ascribe limited rights to children. Contrary to common libertarian dogma, everything in the universe doesn't have to be a human with full rights or chattel property.

[Tulpa]

So are murder and rape laws, no?

[Swedish libertarian]

So you're a libertarianbut?

You know, the kind of people who tend to say "I'm a libertarian, but..." a lot.

[Charles 3E]

I think, echoing PIRS up there, that lots of libertarians can disagree on these kinds of issues.

I would compare it to abortion. Either the fetus is a person, or it's not (or it, as some point). Either belief doesn't make you more or less of a libertarian.

[Libertymike]

However, the real crossing of the Rubicon for one who claims to be a libertarian is one's willingness to support state initiation of aggression. If one supports the notion that the state should be able to initiate force, no matter what the pretext, one is, by definition, not a libertarian.

Libertarianism does not embrace the proposition that its okay for the state to initiate force. Period. No exceptions. Ever.

[GILMORE]

This is sort of meaningless when you consider the vagueness of 'initiation' in the context of very complex conflicts

[Tulpa]

Libertarianism is a limited belief system. It only addresses questions of whether govt should coerce in certain situations. It doesn't address, or claim to address, every issue in the universe.

[Libertymike]

Yes, libertarianism does not address whether the ever expanding March Madness Mania has rendered regular season college basketball meaningless.

[JD]

It's not the actual vegetarianism that I have a problem with; it's the fact that most vegetarians are such smug assholes about it.

[Jim]

You, my friend from across the pond, do not know what you're missing if your women are still sporting full bush.

[Swedish libertarian]

No offense meant, but I hesitate to accept genital hygiene norms from a country where chopping off pieces of children's penises is considered normal.

[PIRS]

That isn't "normal" except in certain kinds of very religous families. I think New York and a few other VERY large cities might be an exception however. San Francisco is even considering a bill that would ban circumcision - whether you agree or disagree with it - it is evidence that many here do not agree that it is "normal".

[Swedish libertarian]

I thought around 75 percent of all American males were circumcised. That seems pretty normal.

[Jim]

Depends on which stats you look at; there are different ones from different associations.

Question: do your women shave their armpits?

*Spoiler Alert*

I'm not cut, but, as a libertarian, I hardly think any of us count as "normal".

[Fluffy]

Uncut penises look ridiculous.

It's as if you met a person with a big rill of skin around his face, and when he spoke in a very animated way his face lurched up out of it.

[Swedish libertarian]

Regional aesthetic tastes totally justify non-consensual genital mutilation! Yay libertarianism!

[Swedish libertarian]

Regional aesthetic tastes totally justify non-consensual genital mutilation.

Yay libertarianism!

[Swedish libertarian]

Yeah, regional aesthetic tastes totally justify non-consensual genital mutilation.

[Swedish libertarian]

Regional aesthetic tastes justify non-consensual genital mutilation.

Yay libertarianism!

[GILMORE]

Is there a similar thing to Godwin's Law where there's a statistical chance that any and all discussions devolve to debates about Cut vs. Uncut cocks?

And why does it only apply to Hit & Run outside of gay chat rooms?...

[Jim]

Has nothing to do with hygiene; it's just hotter to look at, and you're not constantly spitting out hairs/picking them from your teeth afterwards. No nasty, sticky tangle that has to be cleaned up...I can't even imagine dealing with a woman who doesn't keep it trimmed. I don't want to have sex with SheRock of Hill People.

[Somalian Road Corporation]

Almost without exception the vegans I've known tend to be way too much like this guy for my liking.

[Somalian Road Corporation]

fucking hell

http://www.theonion.com/articl.....a-tel,429/

[GILMORE]

Im so glad you weren't around when i mentioned I didn't have a TV... 🙂 that would have been embarrassing.

[Somalian Road Corporation]

I didn't want to mention it, but now that you've brought it up, I don't own a TV either.

[GILMORE]

I think from now on this should not be discussed.

I don't want to be associated with this type - the, "approval of the masses" character here @1:10 =

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCumH8LRo1A

[Somalian Road Corporation]

I'll see your link and raise you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VisSpBOxz5U&t=5m2s (and 8m17s, fucking server squirrels)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sl65dqhS4Q&t=1m54s

I have a friend (who is studying "social justice and human rights") who has on more than one occasion reminded me quite strongly of these bits.

[Somalian Road Corporation]

too clunky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYKwNQZCV8

[GILMORE]

All I can say is I watched the links, laughed, and still have no idea what the fuck you're referring to.

[GILMORE]

Or maybe I do. Not sure. The last one seemed germane. the "please dont spit on my food"-white-guilt thing was cute.

[Somalian Road Corporation]

Also the FnB folks I have met are fond of dumpster-diving for food and then lying about its origins to those they serve it to, because otherwise they would be less likely to eat it.

[anon]

There is a group in my town doing the same thing (ignoring local ordinances) and feeding the homeless. Despite there being several organizations in town who feed, clothe, house and give general assistance to people in need, legally. These organizations have offered their assistance to this group to no avail . . .
Unintended consequences:
Locally owned and run businesses are getting no customers on the nights the homeless are getting their dinner. Why you ask? They are aggressively pan-handling, aggressively demanding customers to buy them alcoholic drinks, and generally making a complete nuisance of themselves, etc. This is hurting local businesses, those employed at local businesses (servers who depend on tips) and the reputation of our downtown area, which our town has struggled to revitalize for decades.
I am no fan of big government, but sometimes laws exist for a reason.

[Surly Chef]

And here is where "ROADZZ!!!!" works for the libertaian. a la Hoppe. Without restricting liberty or anything.

[Tulpa]

Yeah, road privatization just makes getting from one place to another a transaction on a par with buying a house.

I'll take a wee little liberty restriction in return for avoiding that.

[Isaac Bartram]

...give general assistance to people in need, legally.

[my italics]

Oh, yes, that which is not permitted is forbidden.

[Tulpa]

I believe the poster's point is that it is not necessary to break the ordinance to feed the homeless. So the self-righteous canards about how Orlando is making homeless people starve should be dismissed as hogwash.

[Libertymike]

Nor is it necessary to argue that there must be an ordinance prohibiting the unlicensed feeding of the homneless in order for the "affected" bars and eateries to thrive.

[Zuo]

Parks are places to be used by the public for recreation. Turning these places into itinerant camps for piece-of-shit bums denies the public the use of the park. Bums and their enablers are thus infringing upon the rights of the general public (i.e. They pay taxes in expectation that they receive a service - a place for recreation)

Its the same as protesters deliberately blocking public thoroughfares. They ARE infringing on the rights of others.

[capitol l]

Would you say that the right to play frisbee-golf unencumbered by grubby beggars is more a Lockean, or Humean construct?

[SugarFree]

I'd say it's Darwinian. Anyone randomly wandering on a disc golf course is going to bleed.

[capitol l]

So a might makes right sort of thing?

Seems more Mingetarian than Libertarian.

[SugarFree]

No, I'm just saying that they aren't going to last long. Picnic areas are one thing, but getting beaned in the head by golf disc, even accidentally, is a bad outcome for a homeless person.

[capitol l]

Okay, I'll cry uncle.

Change 'frisbee golf' to 'picnicing with spawn'.

[SugarFree]

He really makes for a poor eating companion.

[Tulpa]

Would you say that the right to play frisbee-golf unencumbered by grubby beggars is more a Lockean, or Humean construct?

You're arguing from first principles to defend people setting up shop on land owned by someone else.

Think about that for a second.

[capitol l]

I'm not arguing anything, Tulpster.

I am genuinely curious to hear a good argument of why some people have a right to a public park over others. Also, that some people using a public park is an infringement on the rights of others seems odd to me. I just seek better understanding of you and Zuo's lamebrain justifications.

[Libertymike]

I have always wondered as you do.

The Tulpster tends to think that order is better achieved with some measure of "law and order". He has often articulated that he would prefer to be at the mercy of those who killed Vicki Weaver and Jose Gurena than a drug dealing mobster.

[Fluffy]

Hey, fine. So close the parks and sell them off. Problem solved.

But don't lie to me and tell me that the parks are open to the public during certain hours and then turn around and tell me, "Oh wait, not THOSE guys. They're scary. That means they aren't using the park for its intended purpose, which is to be a place for me to jog without seeing anyone who isn't exactly like me in every respect. Or its other major purpose, which is to draw people to the neighborhood so they can spend money in nearby businesses."

I never agreed that those were the uses for parks. I don't think we use the word "public" in the same way.

[Libertymike]

Right. You know that "public", in the libertarian thesaurus, is synonymous with "soviet", "people's republic", etc.

[Zuo]

Too many libertarians fancy themselves theologians. Let's hear you explain why the homeless should be allowed to freely wander the halls public schools, maybe treat themselves to a nice free "low income" lunch.

And nice strawman with the "not exactly like me in every respect".

[Tulpa]

No one is saying homeless people should be forbidden from parks. Extinguish your strawman before you warm the earth even more.

[Paul]

By the way, back on topic, Orlandofloridaguide is offline for me. Anyone else?

[R C Dean]

They ask for money then spit on you and call you bourgois scum.

This is why God invented pepper spray. Or, if you really want to fuck them up, remember that spitting on someone is assault.

[Somalian Road Corporation]

Those digestive enzymes are a chemical weapon. That's terrorism.

[Tulpa]

Excellent strategy for dealing with beggars one on one.

Doesn't work quite as well when you're attempting to wade through the middle of Homeless Woodstock.

[Libertymike]

Someday, I would like to wade through Homeless Woodstock with you. Sounds like a lot of fun.

[R C Dean]

It's as if you met a person with a big rill of skin around his face, and when he spoke in a very animated way his face lurched up out of it Warty.

[chris soul]

In the 60's we had the Civil Rights Freedom Riders.. Today I have never? been more proud of this Food Not Bombs group for what I am sure has given this small group of "Feed Um" Fighters International attention...If buses left from California I would join them right now...Well Done !

"Yeah, darling
Gonna make it happen
Take the world in a love embrace
Fire all of your guns at once and
Explode into space ...;)

[R C Dean]

Some "good hearted" and bad brained employee would end up baking scores of muffins near closing that needed to be discarded and donated.

If an employee wants to give muffins to the homeless, they are always free to buy them at the end of their shift.

[Libertymike]

If they are forced to pay for the muffins themselves, they would be homeless.

[Hazel Meade]

If they're lucky, this might hold Anonymous's attention for all of ... oh look, some kiddie porn!

[-]

The hacktivist group

I love it. Take a criminal act ("hacking"), combine it with the ostensibly progressive "activism," and you get "hacktivist." They're not criminals at all! They're just misunderstood nerds who are looking out for you!

[Tom Walls]

Uh hum, Orlando, Fla.

[Tulpa]

Black faxes? What is this, 1998? In the age of fax software those don't work anymore.

While I do respect Anonymous' marches against Scientology and such, the Internet-based mischief strikes me as incredibly pussified (and illegal and unlibertarian).

[Mark]

Orlando is easily the worst city in the US. I'd rather be in Flint, Gary or Detroit.

[Nike Dunk High Women]

thanks