Jefferson Memorial Dance Dance Revolution - 6/4/2011

How To Close A National Monument With Freedom Of Expression

One week ago, May 28, 2011, RT correspondent and former U.S. Corporal Adam Kokesh and four other participants began a flash mob-silent dance at the Jefferson Memorial to commemorate the arrest of Brooke Oberwetter for quietly dancing in the memorial on Jefferson's birthday in 2008. The park police responded by punching, body slamming, and arresting Kokesh and the others.

Today, June 4, Kokesh and Code Pink has initiated another flash dance this time pulling almost 100 more people through press coverage, Facebook, and word of mouth. The memorial was soon shut down before the event ended with the police slowly forcing everyone to leave. No arrests were made. Reason.tv's Joshua Swain was there to report.

Read Reason's coverage of Obwerwetter.

About 1.40 minutes

Shot and edited by Joshua Swain; help from David Bier.

Scroll down for downloadable versions, and subscribe to Reason.tv's YouTube Channel to receive automatic notifications when new material goes live.

Comments

[Thomas Jefferson]

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

[Aaron Burr]

Fuck you, hypocrite.

[Hamilton]

et tu, brute.

[Thomas Jefferson]

Oh yeah, unless you're a Negro, of course.

[Paul]

Look! The Kos Kidz showed up!

[Thomas Jefferson]

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.

[Thomas Jefferson]

Use not shims of wood for plumbing or any task where moisture is present. They will swell and rot, and the project will be ruint.

[Terr]

Sound advice right there.

[Bill Maher]

What a bunch of fucking, retarded Teabaggers!

[Go back to the Drew Carey Show]

you are the goofy guy, aren't you?

[fish]

Bill Maher: The guy they call when Deep Voiced Bum isn't available.

What a government loving uber tard!

[Thomas Jefferson]

Hey, where the black women at?

[Banjos]

Here you go, TJ

[sloopyinca]

Lots of sausage in that vid. I had something a little more like this in mind.

[What Mr Bojangles says....]

dance....
dance....
dance.

[Dick Nixon]

Punks!

[sloopyinca]

They need to get Kevin Bacon to come in and give an impassioned speech to the DC City Council. Otherwise, they can hold their dance across the border in Virginia at an old mill or something.

[Almanian]

I lulzed

[ceanf]

nice touch there with the machine gun toting, jack booted SWAT thugs. cause that surely was the intent behind forming these paramilitary squads... to 'back' up park police officers breaking up a group of peaceful american citizens dancing at a national monument. its a wonder nobody got a hole put in them, seeing as how these SWAT thug are know to have buttery, slippery, itchy trigger fingers.

[??]

Yawn.

[sloopyinca]

So...the revolution ended in a tie?

[Phil]

Do you feel any responsibility for denying everyone else access to the memorial because you wanted to pull a stunt? What selfishness!

[Irresponsible Hater]

Meh.

[Brandon Magoon]

How are the protesters responsible for what the park police did? There was no justification for closing down a national monument. The park police are just dicks for ruining everybody's day.
People should complain but I couldn't find any contact information for them. Big surprise.

[sloopyinca]

Here ya go. I left a message for the Chief and the PIO. Doubt they'll listen.

[Phil]

They provoked it. It was the response they wanted, so they are responsible. But what result? what good came of it? what socially redeeming thing was achieved? All I see are a group of attention seekers ruining other people's days.

[Beingmike]

Agreed

[Monty.Crisco]

Agreed +1!

[jasno]

If only they had participated in meaningful resistance, like posting on someones blog...

[Paul]

Nothing screams "revolution!" like a Farmville wall post.

Like this [x]

[Apogee]

All I see are a group of attention seekers ruining other people's days.

Time for a trip to the optometrist.

Had the original 'terrorist' dancing had not been met with overwhelming, pants-wetting, OMG! OMG! force, there never would have been a second dance.

You know what you do with attention seekers? Don't give them attention.

This has nothing to do with keeping 'order' at a National Monument, and everything to do with government bureaucrats assigning an elevated 'threat level' to behavior that questions their authority.

[zoltan]

They were wearing short skirts...they're to blame!

[RanDomino]

They provoked it? Is that like how the abuser says, "Why do you make me hit you"?

[Hooha]

+1

[Red Rocks Rockin]

Whatever--a bunch of professional provocateurs do, what professional provocateurs do, and then act "OMG WE'RE BEING OPPRESSED BY FASCISTS!!" when they get the attention they were looking for.

Wake me up when these faggots pull this shit at an airport security checkpoint instead of a national monument.

[JW]

You give them the what for Phil! You show them who's really fit to shine their jackboots.

[Beingmike]

We don't need you're stinking jackboots...shine your own fucking boots bitch!

[Apogee]

You do, however, need remedial English.

[Beingmike]

Do I? Strange...so do you.

[Beingmike]

I noticed the YOUR after the post...yikes! the entire foundation of reality almost collapsed under that one.

[Citytrekker]

True. This behaviour, flash mob, is turning dangerous. These nitwits should be tasered and tear gassed. If the government does it to organized laborers, then these nitwits should be in jail.

All across the country people are seeing this behavious and then using it to gather a flash mob and then rob and steal. In small towns and big cities in the past year there have been nuerous flash mobs that are not out to dance, but to cause trouble.

[Gabe]

I am against violence, robbing and stealing.

The only violence and crime I see being committed is by this gang of flashmobbers dressed in black and blue uniforms and lots of weapons.

Hopefully flash mobs of good people will be put to good use like over running the IMF, Fed Building, White House and the Capital to stop all this robbing and stealing that is going on.

[____]

You seriously need to turn in your Libertarian card and go back to FreeRepublic

[some guy]

Doesn't this belong in Brickbats? I guess then we wouldn't get to comment...

[sloopyinca]

Don't steal Mr. Swain's thunder. This is his first H&R story where Mr. Gillespie isn't holding his hand.

[rather]

I doubt it was his hand

[Jingles]

Um, guys, it's June. Learn to timestamp.

[sloopyinca]

Ignore my post about Mr. Swain and cutting him slack. He fucked up the month in the title, even.

[Jingles]

For the post AND the video itself. Fantastic.

[capitol l]

IT'S STILL NOT FIXED! FUCKING HELL!!!

[sloopyinca]

I'm drawn to the title like a magnet. Will he ever fix it? The clock is ticking.

[Almanian]

Hmmm - not yet

[capitol l]

SIX FOUR ELEVEN...NEVER FORGET!

[sloopyinca]

SIX FIVE ELEVEN...THE EDITORS STRIKE BACK.

[capitol l]

It's like 9/11 times a thousand...

911,000?

[Isaac Bartram]

No, 9000/11.

[sloopyinca]

+2/.5*4

[Hypothetical]

Since it's a public property thing (I guess), should the hippies--I mean "revelers"--be able to dance whenever they want at any and all "public" venues? During court proceedings, for instance? In the middle of a busy intersection? On a military base? Making an ass of yourself at a public memorial because you can is no reason. It isn't an act of respect (as some have claimed) but an adolescent act of provocation.

[1963]

Indeed, how dare those uppity Negroes close down the Lincoln Memorial by making a speech about "having dreams" or some such nonsense!

[1776]

Yes. And, I say, how dare those damnable colonials and their protestations in the harbour at Boston. King George will have none of that nonsense.

[JW]

He's right. Freedom should be more highly regulated and licensed too.

[Cosmotarian Overlord]

Was this display of free speach "permitted" by the authorities? I thought we already dealt with this problem in Amerika.

We can only truly have free speach if we have free speach cages built in the proper places...and then all those who have the proper paper work and carbon tax reciepts are gathered into the appropriate cages for the speach they have requested to pollute the air with. This is the only safe secure and civilized way to conduct ourselves.

[Phil]

yeah, good analogy. A dignified event with a socially redeeming message that has stood the test of time versus a petty disturbance that will be forgotten about in 3 days.

[Thomas]

What's the difference? If I lived in 1773 I would've thought that a bunch of men throwing tea into the water wouldn't have been remembered for this long.

[Beingmike]

Quite right...every man a PARADIGM. (oh and woman)

[Hooha]

Anyone else smell bacon?

[Beingmike]

Good call...lets string 'em up right.

[sloopyinca]

Since it's a public property thing (I guess), should the hippies--I mean "revelers"--be able to dance whenever they want at any and all "public" venues? During court proceedings, for instance? In the middle of a busy intersection? On a military base? Making an ass of yourself at a public memorial because you can is no reason. It isn't an act of respect (as some have claimed) but an adolescent act of provocation.

Courts are set up for a specific purpose. If they want to dance in a courtroom while np proceeding is scheduled, I've got no problem with that.

Intersections are rights of way designed for automobiles. If they want to dance across a crosswalk when the "walk" sign is on, I've got no problem with that.

An open military base would allow it. A closed base would not allow civilian access to it, however I would have no problem with them dancing outside the gates providing they did not impede people travelling in and out.

Basically, the answer to your questions are all yes, until they infringe on someone else's liberty. Silently dancing at a monument does not, while the examples you pulled out of your ass all do.

IOW, analogy fail.

[Tulpa]

Yeah, what sloopy said.

Maybe I should read the other replies before adding mine.

[Almanian]

Ditto, what sloopy said

[Phil]

@sloopy - but they did infringe on others rights...their right to enjoy the memorial. The memorial was closed because of the actions of these attention-seekers. The created a public disturbance, they were intentionally nuisances with the goal of inciting a reaction. Bad form.

[Tulpa]

The memorial was closed because of the actions of these attention-seekers.

The dancers weren't blocking anyone from entering, any more than 100 people standing around would at least. It was the park police who chose to close the memorial to avoid embarrassment -- so if anyone is guilty of infringing rights it's the park police.

[Troy]

ahhhh. Your Honor, he MADE me beat the shit out of him. I didn't have any choice. My hands were tied.

[sloopyinca]

Phil, please explain to me how you quantify "enjoyment."

[Apogee]

I don't think you want to know that.

[Beingmike]

Silent? Not impeding? Specific Purpose?...I think someone needs to watch the video without blinders on. In reality, you can designate any purpose you want for anything...in the end it is the group that agrees to the definition. You seek to change the definition...why hid your intentions?

[Apogee]

I think someone needs to watch the video without blinders on.

And that bowler is...you.

[Beingmike]

Ouch...good one...man I'll be more careful next time.

[Sy]

This word 'right' you keep using.. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Brandon Magoon]

A public memorial isn't even close to being a court proceeding or a military base. The whole point is public involvement.

[Tulpa]

I agree that dancing at the memorial in itself is stupid, but this event was to stand up to the hideous behavior of Park Police in the previous instances.

So long as they're not obstructing others from using the property for its intended purpose, the state has no business telling them how to behave. The examples you give all prevent the public venue from being used for its intended purpose (as does feeding homeless people in a park).

[sloopyinca]

(as does feeding homeless people in a park).

[golf clap]

[Slap the Enlightened!]

I'm all for feeding the homeless in the park.

[Tulpa]

And once they're fattened up, then we go Yemeni cow on their asses.

[Beingmike]

It does if you are lawfully asked to leave and stop the disturbance and refuse...at that point you have decided to oppose authority. We do have a republic that has representatives elected to carry out the will of the people. Wait...were talking about these assholes, why? I really wish I could have been there to get in the way and protest for the right to disrupt the disrupters...and inevitably be called a lot of nasty names.

[Tulpa]

So the real crime is failure to respect authoritah?

The PPs had no authority to ask them to leave, anyway. So they weren't being "lawfully" asked to leave.

[Beingmike]

Provide a reference for that statement...In fact they do.

[Tulpa]

The park police don't own the memorial...the US govt does. Thus they have no authority beyond what is granted in the law.

Show me the law that says you can't dance silently at the Memorial.

[Beingmike]

The question was posed to you, provide a reference to something other than your hot air. There are no redirects allowed shithead.

The park police are employees of the US Government and act under their authority...so yes they can enforce ordinances established by the US Government. What don't you understand about that?

(waiting for the police state argument or inevitable rhetorical redirect)

[zoltan]

There are no ordinances making dancing illegal. The park police acted unlawfully because they do not have the power to arrest people for dancing. They don't have the power to stop people from dancing either.

[Beingmike]

That assertion rest on what intent is. In this case it couldn't be more obvious that there was the intent to gain attention. Dancing has nothing to do with it...INTENT is the key concept.

[Shorter BeingMiketheDumbass]

If there's not a law allowing it, it's illegal!

[Cosmotarian Overlord]

"Gaining attention" is a crime under UN Resolution For The Equality Of Being. The lawfully elected US Senate has approved of our Internationallly Democratic Treaties, therefore the Park Police were within the law to body slam anyone who is judged to be trying to gain attention. Jeez, what is with all these hippies coming on here today?!

[Citytrekker]

Bullshit. They were loitering. The people running the memorial have a right to limit the use of the memorial for public health, safety and wellbeing. That is an obvious fact. Anyone that says otherwise and contenteds this is a constitutional right to dance doesn't understand the difference between public and private - simple concept.

Show me a law that says that you can do whatever you want at a Memorial? I do not want to see idiots dancing there - maybe if a was a spontaneous couple dancing without video cameras. Something real. Something actually about Freedeom! The point is i see you idiots talking about restrictions and freedom and you are not fighting for any of that. Grow up.

[Drottning]

You don't want to see people dancing there?

Maybe I don't want to see people with mohawks, or shirtless men with beer bellies, or screaming babies, or whatever.

Do you have any solid reason they should have been prevented from dancing, other than "you don't want to see it"?

[PolkLibertarian]

This article does a good job describing why the Park Police do, indeed, have the authority to shut down the demonstration.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=41&sid=2401484

While I respect the mob's right to free expression, others have a right to visit an iconic memorial in a public park without such a disturbance.

An apt analogy would be singing Eminem songs inside a house of worship during a service, or allowing the Westboro Baptist Church crowd to protest at the gravesides of slain military personnel.

[Just an Engineer]

So you're advocating for giving up your rights and giving the government the authority to violently enforce social norms? What happens when you don't agree with social norms will you meekly submit? The police should not have the authority to break up any sort of protest that is occuring on public grounds and is not impeding the rights of others regardless of how socially vile it may be. However if someone gets hit in the face with a brick for protesting a funeral they shouldn't have any legal recourse against a person they intentionally provoked with their socially unacceptable acts.

[sloopyinca]

So, beingmike, if "the will of the people," or at least 51% of them, says you can't drive beause you are a woman, is that OK? Or, what if it is "the will of the people" to tax the top 49% of earners at 100% and the bottom 51% at 0%?

Long live the tyranny of the majority will of the people.

[Beingmike]

Bringing back to the topic at hand... So lets assume that the quiet individuals are the minority. Assume there are 5 people there that wished to come and enjoy the Public Memorial in peace and 650 people were there to make noise. Who wins then...asshole! Fact is that we determine as a community what the memorial means and what rules govern what's allowed there. In my scenario the quiet's are the minority...they would be necessarily ignored.

[Apogee]

Fact is that we determine as a community what the memorial means and what rules govern what's allowed there.

The fact is that it's unaccountable bureaucrats that are 'deciding' what constitutes a 'disturbance', and using the power of the state to enforce their own personal authority.

The fact that this 'disturbance' occurred at the memorial to who was arguably the most radical of all the founding fathers (Google: Tree of Liberty + Blood) seems lost on many.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." -- Thomas Jefferson

[Beingmike]

And who specifically are the unaccountable bureaucrats? Any names? What are the ordinances being exercised and what do they say specifically? Lost on me or the person you are looking at in your head? How do you know what I know about Jefferson? Are you the authority that all mankind should refer to concerning Jefferson...you are being too vague and spending too much effort to reverberate the echos in your hole to affect me. Try harder!

[Apogee]

Do your own research.

[Beingmike]

I do.

[Beingmike]

There are in fact legitimate ways to address how our monuments are run and what the ordinances are...which as it turns out is more democratic than you may realize. Has anyone here looked into that...

[Apogee]

There are in fact legitimate ways to address how our monuments are run and what the ordinances are...

Yes, and one of the legitimate ways is protest.

No protest, no democracy.

[Beingmike]

Protest isn't the answer...you get an F.

[Apogee]

BeingMikeTory | 12.17.1773 @5:35PM

Protest against the crown can take no form such as the violent and damnable outrage that was visited upon the hapless East India Company upon cover of darkness.

There are, as is a matter of factual nature, legitimate and essential ways to remedy how the Tea Levy is applied to our shores...

[Beingmike]

? and the point being?

[Apogee]

Also, one of the hallmarks of trolls is that they attempt to assign 'homework' to others, as though they're in charge of something.

You're not in charge of anything, Mike, and I bet that really bugs the shit out of you.

[Beingmike]

No...but I bet it bugs you.

[Sy]

You're terrible at this.

[Paul]

Fact is that we determine as a community what the memorial means and what rules govern what's allowed there

Oh shit, he went to the "community standards" argument.

[robc]

eating is a standard park purpose.

So, no it doesnt. The homeless have just as much right to eat in the park as I do.

[Citytrekker]

agreed. They are loitering. They are not fighting for anything, they are fighting for the freedom to have the freedom to do what they are doing at that moment. They are doing nothing. IDIOTS.

[WazWoo]

OK wow, you have to admit dude that is like very cool!

http://www.hide-your-ip.at.tc

[Dangerman]

I don't have to do anything of the sort, bot!

[db]

Dude. Anonbot is cool. We have to be helpful and honest with it. If we ge Skynet on our side early...

[Vaccine]

Everytime I step into the TJ Memorial now, I'm going to dance a little jig.

[sloopyinca]

a little jig.

Racist?

[Tulpa]

Black Irish?

[sloopyinca]

Perhaps.

[Trespassers W]

Aw, 'tis a wee Phil Lynott!

[sloopyinca]

+a gold record.

[don't forget]

O'bama is Irish.

[Racist Commenter]

God, I hate jiggers!

[J[o]h[nn]y L[o][n]gt[o]rs[o]]

Nutpunch Threadjack!!

Miami Beach Police Ordered Videographer At Gunpoint To Hand Over Phone
...Miami Beach police did their best to destroy a citizen video that shows them shooting a man to death in a hail of bullets Memorial Day.

First, police pointed their guns at the man who shot the video, according to a Miami Herald interview with the videographer.

Then they ordered the man and his girlfriend out the car and threw them down to the ground, yelling "you want to be fucking paparazzi?"

Then they snatched the cell phone from his hand and slammed it to the ground before stomping on it. Then they placed the smashed phone in the videographer's back pocket as he was laying down on the ground....

Witnesses said they were forced to hide video after Beach shooting
...On Thursday, The Miami Herald spoke to the couple that saw the end of the 4 a.m. police chase on Collins Avenue, then watched and filmed from just a few feet away as a dozen officers fired their guns repeatedly into Raymond Herisse's blue Hyundai. They say the only reason they were able to show the video to a reporter is because they hid a memory card after police allegedly pointed guns at their heads, threw them to the ground and smashed the cell phone that took the video. ...

[sloopyinca]

I was just about to post this. It's sickening on so many levels. I sure hope this makes the Monday breakfast links, even if I'll not be around to comment. Johnny LT, can I count on you to post this in the place of Golden Girls stuff?*

*Assuming the diabeetus doesn't get you before then.

[db]

OK, so I'd love to repost this, but I won't until I see the video. I don't have a problem with this guy wanting compensation for the video, but I can't in good faith get worked up over this until I see the video. Too much hearsay unless.

[sloopyinca]

Take a look at the video in the link that was taken from a building top. It sounds like a shooting gallery.

[Almanian]

This, in lieu of the Golden Girls on Friday?

JL, you sadistic BASTARD!

[J[o]h[nn]y L[o][n]gt[o]rs[o]]

I don't know what Mon morning will look like (and NOTHING, repeat NOTHING replaces the Golden Girls). Maybe if we all scream bloody murder in the comments thread it will make the morning links on its own.

[sage]

So the TJ memorial is our Tiananmen Square? Close enough, I guess. Hopefully it never gets as bad as TS.

[-]

It might not be TS but it's at least Syria.

[rather]

don't be an idiot. Despite their lousy dancing, none of the protestors lost their nuts

[bagoh20]

A little advice for the authorities: If you want this to end, leave it alone. If you want to make an ugly episode in history for which you are responsible keep it up.

Ditto to the protesters.

There is nothing more to accomplish that is good here. Both sides are overreaching and thereby forcing a bad outcome. That's just what happens when people insist on using the letter of the law rather than common sense and respect. That applies equally to both sides here. Both have power, and they both should appreciate the value of NOT using it.

[sloopyinca]

They may both have "power," but only one group has the ability to use violence against the other.

The protesters need to keep it up until the law is changed and they are free to do what they want short of infringing on the rights of others.

I understand your point, I just disagree. Once you prove the absurdity of the other side's position, keep pressuring them until they strike down the stupid law.

[Tulpa]

The law won't be changed. Enforcement will temporarily stop until everyone forgets about it. Then ten years from now someone will decide to try it again and the next generation of park police will microwave their genitals or whatever the successor of tasing is.

[Almanian]

Mini-Nukes?

[Hamilton]

snukes.

[bagoh20]

The police are very limited in what they can do. Even the small amount of violence they used already has backfired. The protesters are actually the more powerful here. I hate what the cops are doing, especially in this place. I also hate what the protesters are doing. Both are disrespecting the the honor of the memorial, and they are doing it only because they can, not because it needs done. Dancing in the memorial is neither a badly needed expression nor a horrible transgression. Bad place, bad reason to make a fight. Little thinking is going on. It's just emotion on both sides, and both are disgracing us all. Who is gonna opt to cut the baby in half to get their way?

[heller]

Pussy

[bagoh20]

Only pussies pick fights with those who can't or will not fight back. That describes both sides here.

I'm not the pussy, and yet, I'm not a dick either. I'm that thing both Ken and Barbie sported in their pants, and you are fascinated, perplexed and even a little aroused by me. I don't judge you for that.

[overdoo]

"I'm not the pussy, and yet, I'm not a dick either."

So according to Team America, you're an asshole.

[bagoh20]

"So according to Team America, you're an asshole."

And so, I arouse the confused, but still I do not judge.

[heller]

Pussy is cranky?

[?]

Heller the name-caller. Impotence personified.

[heller]

Did anyone else hear a fart?

[yonemoto]

IIRC, Jefferson was an avid dancer.

[sloopyinca]

I hear he liked to do the jig.

Hi-yooooo!

[-]

+1

[Cheeseburger]

Isn't disrespecting a government memorial the very essence of free speech? Especially when the government compares the memorial to "a temple.......a place for reverence........."

[Tulpa]

Both are disrespecting the the honor of the memorial, and they are doing it only because they can, not because it needs done.

False equivalence FTL. Needless acts of violence are far more disrespectful of the memorial than dancing.

If the cops had just ignored the ONE GUY doing a silent dance none of this would have happened.

[Troy]

I like to cum on the face of, with a shitty cock fresh from ass fucking them, people who get all bent over the issue of "disrespect."

[Beingmike]

Angry?

[Mr Whipple]

[Mr Whipple]

Well, the squirrels ate my comment, somehow. I guess it's better than being "marked as spam".

[Not to be knitpicky, but....]

...but only one group has the ability [legal authority] to use violence against the other.

[sloopyinca]

Correction duly noted.

Much obliged.

[Beingmike]

Why was the disruption not a violation of other people's right to peacefully enjoy the memorial?You are glaringly inconsistent.

[Apogee]

Because it's open to the public, and the original 'infraction' was a single person that wasn't physically interfering with other people, wasn't using the memorial for commercial purposes, and wasn't doing it repeatedly or in enough numbers to 'ruin' anything other than the day of some control freaks.

It's not the job of government to rigidly control every facet of human behavior.

You have the right to peacefully enjoy your living room. When you go outside, however, people might do things that distract you. As long as they don't harm or threaten you, it's not illegal.

Learn to deal with it.

[Beingmike]

"Because it's open to the public"...exactly! as such, as a matter of principle everyone's rights should be respected...not just the ones you happen to agree with. Were you there?...because I've read several narratives of the events and what you just said reflects none of them...what are your references? Here is a quote that I found on another website "Can't wait for a flash mob dance at the Holocaust memorial. It's about freedom after all and freedom means we must do these dances at memorials."

[Apogee]

Since you're handing out homework, why don't you enumerate the right to control the behavior of other people that isn't threatening, obscene or dangerous?

You speak of 'a matter of principle' and respecting everyone's rights, yet make the very error you accuse others of making.

It is you who has devalued the act of protest to the point of where it cannot 'disturb' anyone - thereby rendering a 'protest' irrelevant.

Please let us all know exactly where political protests should take place if not at a National Monument? (Hint: All of D.C. is effectively a National Monument)

[Beingmike]

Let's assume for a moment that I came to the monument to quietly reflect...not that I would...but let's say I did. Let's say you have come there to make a disturbance...not that you would...but lets assume you did. Who gains priority here? How is that a mistake in logic to point out the conundrum? There is always a political motivation for an action...therefor who gets listened to...who determines who is more enlightened...you? me? The problem is exclusion...it's one or the other dude...(hint: same reason people with resources generally leave the inner-city)

[Apogee]

Who gains priority here? How is that a mistake in logic to point out the conundrum?

Your mistake is the assumption that there exists a conundrum.

The memorial was not constructed for the sole purpose of "quiet reflection", although that is what may occur there from time to time. The 'tranquil commemoration' description used by the court, as well as the description of 'dancing' as protest, were "engaged in by one or more persons" - was exactly what was practiced by the dancers.

The only problem seems to be not enough deference to 'authority'.

When I go to D.C., I fully expect to encounter political speech and/or protests in and around the city, as it is the political Capital of the U.S., and the country was founded by political protestors.

If I were in need of quiet reflection, I would probably choose to go early in the morning, or go to one of the less popular monuments.

Why? Because screaming children, foreign tourists (speaking a language that I may not understand), cell phone users, hard of hearing elderly, traffic noise and people with coughs/sniffles would all distract from my 'quiet reflection'. Somehow, it is only dancing that merits the crackdown and closure.

This is the Jefferson Memorial - not even the Vietnam Memorial (where some people come to trace the names of people they knew who died in a war). The very idea that there can be no protests is completely counter to much of the written history of Jefferson himself. The larger inscription reads:
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

To paraphrase an earlier comment - do you think there was a reason MLK chose the Lincoln Memorial to give his speeches?

therefor who gets listened to...who determines who is more enlightened...you? me?

One thing I'm sure of: I don't want the government determining who is 'more enlightened'.

[Beingmike]

One group or the other looses...period. It's an issue, which you obviously don't intend to appreciate. Who's to say what and where I have to look? You and your politically motivated activity? Fuck You. The court has determined dancing to be demonstrating and that is where you should address the issue...not on my time and not in my face.

"When I go to D.C., I fully expect to encounter political speech and/or protests in and around the city, as it is the political Capital of the U.S., and the country was founded by political protestors." So do I...but I expect that they will have properly registered their activity like everyone else. Authority in this case appears to be fascists like you...making arbitrary descisions for the rest of us.
All of the other events you mention "screaming children, foreign tourists (speaking a language that I may not understand), cell phone users, hard of hearing elderly, traffic noise and people with coughs/sniffles" are benign and without any reasonably descernable intent to draw a crowd. The "dancing" as you call it did. So yes...the closure as a result. As for a fart or a sniffle? No...no intent there...no closing.

The difference the at the Vietnam memorial is that you'd probably get your ass kick for dancing there...I don't know...try it.

MLK had permission to speak where he did...even MLK followed the law. And are you seriously suggesting that these people belong in the same category as MLK?...shame!

"One thing I'm sure of: I don't want the government determining who is 'more enlightened'."...And I don't want you too either...you and me are the government or so I've been told. So in that sense we agree.

[Apogee]

Who's to say what and where I have to look? You and your politically motivated activity? Fuck You.

Big words, internet tough guy.

You talk about rights, but your comments reveal that you're really just concerned with controlling the behavior of others - that's quite a bit closer to fascism than recognizing someone's right to protest at a monument in the Capital of the Country.

How do we know this? Well, you began your arguments with the appeal that allowing protests would disrupt the ability of others to quietly enjoy the Monument.

But now we learn that's not really the problem. (I guess those quietly reflecting can Fuck off as well)

Now the problem is that the correct permission was not obtained from the government.

MLK had permission to speak where he did...even MLK followed the law.
MLK surely didn't get permission to march on Selma, now, did he?

The necessity of obtaining permission from the government to protest the government is nonsensical.

You don't want equal rights. You want control. It's a big world out there, maybe you should stay home, and you won't be 'forced' to look at someone in a public place.

[nekoxgirl]

Apogee: "When I go to D.C., I fully expect to encounter political speech and/or protests in and around the city, as it is the political Capital of the U.S., and the country was founded by political protestors."

Beingmike: "So do I...but I expect that they will have properly registered their activity like everyone else."

Yes, because nothing says protest like registering with the proper authorities ahead of time.

[zoltan]

Except dancing doesn't affect your ability to quietly reflect on something. Here's a clue: don't look at the dancers! It's not like the dancers were bumping into people and disrupting them. Do people moving around in a certain fashion (as opposed to walking) somehow bother your pristine state of mind?

[Beingmike]

You say I have a pristine state of mind...thanks...I'd have been to humble to say so.

[robc]

You have no right to quiet reflection accept on your own property. In public, I can talk to you, or dance a jig, or wave my arms near you all I damn well want.

[Beingmike]

Learn to think...

[barfman]

*barf*

[Almanian]

You're a pussy, and you're wrong.

That is all.

[bagoh20]

I will kick your ass, but not in the Jefferson Memorial.

[rather]

I put my money on bagoh20. Anyone who doesn't have a dick or pussy is bound to be really pissed

[Warren]

I support the dancers

[Quentin Tarantino]

Did you see a sign that said "Dead Jigger Storage"?

[overdoo]

Speaking of using public property, maybe I'm late to the party on this:

As of today all PDF versions of books published by the National Academies Press will be downloadable to anyone free of charge. ... Before today's announcement, all PDFs were free to download in developing countries, and 65 percent of them were available for free to any user. (emphasis mine)

from here

but, WHAT THE F***!!!!

Why were publications of science results generated by US taxpayer dollars free for people in developing countries, but not to 'merikins?!!!

?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

Dey calls dat revenue generation.

[rather]

In fairness, the writing, editing and printing were outsourced to a a third world country

-why would they want to pay for their own work? 😉

[MJ]

People in "developing countries" are by definition poor, and Americans are by definition "rich". Under Obama the rich have to pay their "fair share".

[John]

This is what media bias looks like. Saturday in the Washington Post story on the economy we get this.

"Behind the economic distress is a series of unexpected events,including the earthquake and tsunami in Japan, the European debtcrisis and rising gasoline prices. As a result of the unemploymentrate turning back up and the housing market reaching new lows sincethe slump began in 2006, numerous economists have reduced theirexpectations for economic growth this year."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....story.html

That is a news story not an opinion story. Then right on cue on Sunday we get this on CNBC.

The president did just that in his weekly radio and Internet address, broadcast Saturday, by highlighting "head winds" that are affecting the United States.

"Even though our economy has created more than two million private sector jobs over the past 15 months and continues to grow, we're facing some tough head winds," he said.

"Lately, it's high gas prices, the earthquake in Japan, and unease about the European fiscal situation. That will happen from time to time. There will be bumps on the road to recovery."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43279028

Clearly the word got out from the White House last that the numbes were going to be bad and the spin was going to be that it wasn't the President's fault but bad luck. The mainstream media than reports the spin on Friday and preps the battle field for the President to give a speech saying the same thing on Saturday.

That is nothing but the Washington Post and AP and others operating as a propaganda arm of the White House. Do you think the spin about "the earthquake and European debt crisis" just came to all of them independently? No, it was put out by the White House. They might as well be on the pay roll.

Also note in the WAPO story every alternative theory to why the economy sucks is given in the form of a quote from a Republican. But the the theory that it is due to bad luck is not attributed to anyone and is reported as fact. The White House Spin gets written as non attributed self evident fact. The counter arguments are written as partisan attacks from Republicans. And the message is coordinated and consistent throughout all the major media outlets.

That is what state run media looks like.

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

^THIS^

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

Not to mention: Anyone want to take bets on what THE topic will be on all the talking head shows today?

But there is a flaw in your theorom, John. It's not a state-run media, its an ideologically-driven media. They are only an arm of the state when the right people are in office.

If not, they go into attack-dog mode; criticizing every move, insisting on complete "transparency", cultivating leaks, implying impending scandals...

And Fox News plays the same game for the other popular ideology these days.

[John]

You are right. The ideological media becomes the state run media when the right people are in charge. In 2012 if the Republicans take over, it will cease to function as a state run media. But right now it might as well be one.

[Jerry]

It's pretty much a state run media if the Republicans are in charge as well. I think it's only ideologically in so far they have publish stories to 'comfort' their readers, the editors themselves are probably more worried about getting a paycheck.

[John]

They only coordinate with one side. Maybe Fox would coordinate with a Republican White House. But the rest would still be printing DNC talking points as news.

[Tulpa]

Don't forget the MSM was kissing Bush's ass from 9/11 until things really started going south in Iraq in 2005.

There is a leftist component to their bias, but there's a much stronger authoritarian bias toward pumping up a Great Leader. In the past I think this has had more to do with stories about Great Leaders doing Great Things being much easier to write and sell, than with any ideological concerns.

But the bias since the 2008 campaign has really been shameful. It's not just a matter of supporting Democrats -- Clinton never got the love and assistance from the media that Obama does. I think it has to do with their market shrinking down to the non-conservative elderly and the leftist and them catering to that market. Also, the potential of a govt bailout to save them from losing their jobs in the next few years might be encouraging this behavior.

[John]

And it is so rediculous anyway. The Japanese earthquake is why we are going into a second recession? A few people not getting their Toyotas on time is causing all of this?

[Tulpa]

Supposedly a lot of the parts for autos are made in Japan...that's the explanation I'm hearing. I'm not sure I believe it can have this big of an effect, as most of Japan was unaffected by the nuclear plant disaster and Japan's had earthquakes before and I've never heard of them causing an economic downturn.

[John]

And it doesn't seem to be driving South Korea or China or Canada into recessions. Talk about grasping at straws.

[Hazel Meade]

Except last week we were hearing that the Japanese earthquake has been good for American auto companies. So which is it?

If the Obama administration is claiming that the lack of available parts from Japan is impacting the US, isn't it implicitly admitting that free trade is beneficial to the economy?

[The Deep End]

That is what state run media looks like.

John, your van is ready.

[John]

Nothing state run about ensuring that your news coverage is coordinated with the White House message. Nope, nothing state run about that at all.

[capitol l]

Nothing state run about ensuring that your news coverage is coordinated with the White House message. Nope, nothing state run about that at all.

This sounds like Noam Chomsky during the bush years.

[John]

The article is what it is. If it is not coordinated with the White House, why does all of the coverage contain the same White House spin listed as fact? Why are all of the counter explinations presented as quotes from Republicans and thus partisan rethoric and the White House spin in contrast is presented as unsourced fact?

How else do you explain it? Do you honestly think the reporters at WAPO and AP all came up with the White House spin independently?

[Journolist]

They didn't have to.

[Hobie Hanson]

You don't think the President reads the Washington Post?

[John]

LOL That is a good one. If he, with all of the resources at his disposal is getting his spin and economic advice from the Post, things are a lot worse than even I think they are. Honestly, the thought of a mindless lefty media doing his bidding, while distrubing, is a better thought. The alterntive you describe is just too horrible.

[Hobie Hanson]

Whatever gets you through the night, bub. I know conspiracy theories satisfy the psychological needs of people incapable of understanding what's going on around them.

[John]

Hobie, can you do anything but make baseless assertions?

[mad libertarian guy]

He's really good at being an authority bootlicker and acting like a douchebag.

[Apogee]

people incapable of understanding

Stop with the self-references.

[Somalian Road Corporation]

And Journolist is what, chopped liver?

[Leftist Trolls United]

Nothing to see here. Move along. Reality has a leftist bias. The big thing is we have to stick together, get out there, say as much stupid shit as possible, disrupt debate, and hopefully keep the proles in line.

[Tulpa]

I know some lefties who will say precisely that, and justify it by claiming that the right is already doing it.

Constructing a strawman to argue against is one thing; constructing a strawman to justify your own immoral actions is quite another.

[MNG]

John stop blaming the president when everyone knows the joos is killing the economy.

[Tulpa]

Shorter MNG: "I have nothing to say."

[MNG]

Did you really think that was me Tulpa?

Wow.

[Hamilton]

Did you really think that was tulpa?

Wow.

[Troy]

John, very perspicacious analysis, as always. However, I disagree with the term "state run." That implies control, a lot of control. I think it is more like collusion in the anti-trust sense. Instead of the prices being fixed, it is meme fixing. Or at least trying to control meme which is apparently to their mutual benefit.

[John]

State run is more me being a smart ass. It is not really state run, although I think some of the people in it wish it were.

[cyto]

Well, they are asking for subsidies and protectionism......

[Res Publica Americana]

Can somebody link me to the video of the Miami Beach police shooting? The one I managed to find on YouTube has been removed.

[the PR campaign]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-wInAnnP3c

[Marv Gomez]

Dancing. Everything else is bullshit!

[?]

Dance anniversary brings new D.C. detentions

Jun 3, 8:19 PM (ET)

WASHINGTON, D.C. (AP) Park security forces rounded up more government critics ahead of Saturday's anniversary of the crushing of the 2008 pro-dancing movement centered on the District's Jefferson Memorial, adding to an already harsh crackdown on dissent, activists said.

Stricter measures against dissidents are routine on the June 4 anniversary, but this year coincide with the most sweeping suppression campaign in many years. Hundreds of activists, lawyers and bloggers have been questioned, detained or simply disappeared in the four-month campaign that aims to quash even the possibility of a pro-dancing movement forming along the lines of those sweeping the Latin world.

[John]

+1

[Tulpa]

Sorry, I'm a bit skeptical. Where's the link?

[?]

whoosh!

[rather]

LOL

[WotZoo]

That certanly looks like a lot of fun dude.

http://www.hide-your-ip.at.tc

[John]

http://jerrypournelle.com/view.....tml#Friday

This is depressing

[MNG]

A Better World For the John's of the World

imagining a world without standardized spelling

But what if correct spelling ? a standard ordering of alphabetic characters, used to represent spoken words ? didn't exist?

At one point, English speakers lived in a world without standardized spelling. According to the Linguistic Atlas of Late Medieval English, in the late Middle Ages a word such as "through" could have as many as 500 variant forms, from recognizable formulations such as "thurgh" and "thorough" to more inventive combinations such as "orowe," "drowg," "trghug" and "trowffe."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....ml?hpid=z3

[sloopyinca]

A Better World For the John's of the World

Please explain what John is possessing in this sentence so I can read your smarmy bullshit article about you knocking his spelling.

Thanks a lot.

[sloopyinca]

imagining a world without standardized spelling

Please either complete this sentence or Capitalize the first word, drop the -ing and place a colon at the end so we can all continue reading the article you copied directly from the WaPo without using quotation marks.

Thanks again.

[MNG]

You're so touchy and smarmy in your defense of your conservative boyfriend you fall into it yourself, it's not capitalized because it's part of a sentence from the article.

Do you not get that it is from the article?

Nice sloopy, down boy.

[rather]

MNG, you are such a bitch! You make me look sweet, that's why I like you 🙂

[Tulpa]

I don't see a blockquote or italicization or even quotation marks... so that's plagiarism.

[MNG]

It's not a term paper professor.

[rather]

...and you are not the professor. Sit your ass down in class 😉

[sloopyinca]

It's not a term paper professor.

No, it's common courtesy to not plagiarize another's work.

[PolkLibertarian]

Nice split infinitive

[sloopyinca]

So, you bash someone's inability to spell, which we all know John really struggles with, but you get all defensive when someone calls out your piss-poor grammar and refusal to cite or block qoute an article?

Yeah, touchy and smarmy. Hello, pot. My name's kettle.

[Tulpa]

Arguing with MNG is good practice for fighting the puke monsters in Dante's Inferno.

[John]

Thanks Sloopy. But I don't "struggle with spelling". I just don't care. If you notice, sometimes my spelling is perfect. It only isn't when I am careless or really pissed off. I write letter perfect stuff for my job all of the time. And always can when I choose to do so. I just don't pay close enough attention on here to ensure it.

[cynical]

"your conservative boyfriend"

I'm sorry to hear that you guys broke up, but yelling at everyone here isn't going to make you feel better.

[sloopyinca]

You made two posts making fun of John's horrible spelling. In the two posts, you managed to:
Use a possessive when one wasn't applicable.
Quote someone without crediting them.
Run two sentences together (in your second comment).

Before you cast stones, you may want to take a remedial English class at your local Community College or Elementary School.

[Actually]

Community College...Elementary School

Those nouns are not proper and should not be capped.

[MNG]

See what happens when you enter the Pedant Spiral?

[mad libertarian guy]

Since you've presented the nouns, as opposed to simply referring to them, the demonstrative noun should be 'these', not 'those'.

[rather]

I love Reason. Grammar geekfest? 🙂

[Troy]

Will someone please spank my ass for my use of the passive voice?

[Grab your ankles]

http://spankedinschool.blogspo.....chive.html

[Grab 'em]

http://alturl.com/v926e

[MNG]

imagining a world without standardized spelling

Another zionist conspiracy.

You wingnuts need to pull your head out of Fox's ass long enough to see the jooo plots all around you.

[Tulpa]

A Better World For the John's of the World

JOE'Z LAW LOOMS LARGE

[R C Dean]

A genuine LOL, Tulpa.

[mad libertarian guy]

The counterargument, however, is that by virtue of spoken language always on the move, if we stick to strict standardized spelling, we will, within a few hundred years have a written language which in no way represents how we speak.

And those cherry picked words with 500 variants are far and few between. Having done extensive research with the linguistic atlas, the vast majority of the screwy variants are anomalies that appear once from some corner abbey library, and were very likely the result of a scribe being unable to read his exemplar as opposed to some half literate tard just making up spellings.

I've no problem with standardized(ish) spelling, but the rules must allow for change in order to reflect our everchanging speech.

[Tulpa]

English spellings in many cases already don't correspond to the way words are pronounced.

[through]

that's just cheating at scrabble!

[mad libertarian guy]

Agreed.

Four hundred years from now, the two won't be reconcilable. That poses problems for the historical record.

[Apogee]

I've no problem with standardized(ish) spelling

Neither do the computers that most people now use to compose their written correspondence. Automatic spelling and grammar correction is quickly becoming ubiquitous, and IMO, the emphasis should be on where these databases obtain their core standards.

[UncleDon]

Was there ONE straight person, besides the police, there?? Nice, "honey, let's drive to DC and show the kids the memorials". "Sorry folks, the Jefferson is closed because a bunch of silly boys are dancing".

[Code Dink]

We're perfectly willing to ruin your day trip to D.C. to make a silly point.

All together girls--jazz hands!

[Tulpa]

Yes, those kids were probably crying all the way home because they didn't get to walk inside Monticello. It's like Disneyworld without the rides and creepy guys in costumes.

[Huh]

They moved Monticello to D.C.?

[Tulpa]

"Sorry folks, the Jefferson is closed because a bunch of silly boys are dancing the Park Police are afraid of being embarrassed"

[Apogee]

^This

[MNG]

So Much for Freedom of Movement...

Israeli troops opened fire on scores of Palestinian protesters from Syria who tried to cross the frontier with the Israeli-held Golan Heights on Sunday. Syrian television reported that four were killed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....ml?hpid=z4

[MNG]

I eagerly await the flip-flopping gymnastics of the Hit & Runpublicans in justifying in libertarian terms the shooting of people who wanted to....walk across a border.

[John]

Don't you have to go save some babies from evil Jews or something?

[Tulpa]

So now both of you have implied that the other is an anti-Semite. Thx for raising the level of debate, guys.

[rather]

http://reason.com/blog/2011/06.....nt_2321992

Read the thread

[MNG]

Lord have mercy Tulpa, I still can't believe you thought that spoof was actually me (several obvious ones on this thread, my fav is the one @ 10:51 where the spoof of me is responding...to me, obviously without realizing it). And the spoof wasn't accusing John of being anti-Semitic, it was supposed to be accusing me of that. Must be an off day for you.

[John]

So the person claiming the cartoon showing the guy saving babies from evil looking Jews was a spoof of you? If so, my apologies MNG. I couldn't believe you could believe that. That is like saying a cartoon called "Hyman man" showing a white guy saving white virgin girls from menacing black men is not racist.

[MNG]

I've already explained on that thread the many reasons why I think the comic is not anti-Semtic, your bare, conclusory statements that it is so can be found there as well. Why repeat?

[John]

In MNG world, a cartoon that even shows a chimp while there is a black President is racist (provided the Right drew it). But a cartoon showing a superhero saving babies from menacing religious Jews is in no way anti-Semitic.

It is just astounding. I honestly never thought you would go full Joe Boyle. But you have.

[Tulpa]

What makes you think 11:24 AM was me rather than a spoof?

[Anarchy]

Dontcha love it?

[Somalian Road Corporation]

I wish Reason would use some kind of real account system to reduce the ridiculous amount of sockpuppetry.

Oh, and flat comments instead of threaded.

[&]

The anarchists would leave in droves, and take the narcissists with them. Never happen.

[sloopyinca]

FTA: "The army spokesman said that troops had fired warning shots before shooting at the legs of the demonstrators. The gunfire was accompanied by loudspeaker warnings in Arabic that anyone who approached the border fence was "endangering his life."

Firing at their legs from 150 yards away? Yeah, right.

That said, while I support open borders, until they exist, people must recognize the sovereignty of other nations and any person who attempts to sneak into a country is subject to being stopped. If a flood of people are attempting to cross your fence and are carrying signs saying your land belongs to them, are you not entitled to defend what is yours?

If Israelis do the same to Egypt, Jordan or Syria, I would expect the same reaction. Oh, that's right. They don't try to provoke their neighbors by overrunning their sovereign lands.

[MNG]

"If a flood of people are attempting to cross your fence and are carrying signs saying your land belongs to them, are you not entitled to defend what is yours?"

Interesting for a libertarian to equate a state stopping individuals from crossing a border with an individual stopping other individuals from crossing the fence in their yard...

"They don't try to provoke their neighbors by overrunning their sovereign lands."

Only in 1948, 1967, and the two Lebanon invasions.

Wow, talk about a softball pitch.

[MNG]

One narrative I agree with conservatives on is the shameful relative ignoring of Soviet atrocities, hopefully this theater production is a step toward a counter-trend.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....l?hpid=z10

"Purge" is one of a planned quartet of works that have the all-but-forgotten calamity of the Soviet era in Europe simmering in the background.

[P Brooks]

The Japanese earthquake is why we are going into a second recession? A few people not getting their Toyotas on time is causing all of this?

Just think how bad those Government Motors sales numbers would have been if Toyota and Datsun and Honda had been cranking out cars full-bore.

[Hobie Hanson]

The only tsunami that caused this recession is Hurricane Dubya...but the President can't say that out of respect for the office. So he has to make an excuse to avoid savaging his predecessor.

[mad libertarian guy]

Yeah, because he's never blamed Bush for anything and disparaged his name ever.

There are two kinds of people. Those who accept responsibility for their actions, and those who desperately try and assign responsibility to whatever/whoever he can. Obama is of the latter breed.

[cynical]

16. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

[Troy]

I like an idea suggested hear earlier. Gay Square Dancers. Square dancing has got to be one of the hokiest, dorkiest, boring objects of human endeavor ever known. However, I can't think of anything more Americana than a couple of square whirling around in those poofy skirts(in annoying vibrant stars and stripes themed garb) under the direction of a good red-necked sounding caller.

I think Mr. Jefferson would approve.

[Banjos]

My gay 5th grade teacher made his students square dance every year. It is a trauma that I wish to forget. Other than that he was an amazing teacher. One of my favorites.

[Troy]

Update: the caller should sound like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg

[nekoxgirl]

Square/Contra Dancing is actually becoming cool among the hippy/hipster/festival-going types in N.C. We're taking it back!

[P Brooks]

You're a funny guy, Hobie.

But not in the "good" way.

[P Brooks]

Somebody has to say it- WTF?

Critics of the Obama administration's approach to preventing foreclosures have pressed for two years to get officials to focus more of their attention on unemployed homeowners, with meager results. As part of the bank bailout, the Treasury Department was given $46 billion to spend on keeping homeowners in their houses; to date, the agency has spent about $1.85 billion.

Morris A. Davis, a former Federal Reserve economist, estimates that as many as a million homeowners slipped into foreclosure because of insufficient help for the unemployed.

"The money was there and they didn't spend it," said Mr. Davis, an associate real estate professor at the University of Wisconsin. "I don't mean to sound outraged, but I am pretty outraged."

FREE HOUSES- what could possibly go wrong?

[Tulpa]

TBH I would rather have had them spend the extra $44B on giving people free houses than passing it off to the big banks and UAW, which is what they probably did with it.

[sloopyinca]

I would rather they spent the money on air recirculators from the exhaust to the cab of every government vehicle.

[mad libertarian guy]

What the fuck is a "real estate professor"?

Has academia gone full retard?

[John]

Has academia gone full retard?

Yes

[mad libertarian guy]

Precisely the reason I left about 1/3 of the way through my PhD in medieval English literature.

I loved my work, but hated both the institution and most of those in it. It's a shame that what was once a noble institution has morphed in to a huge pile of stupid more concerned with pumping out little liberals than with, you know, ejumacatin'.

[P Brooks]

SURPRISE!

Now, the latest scientific research suggests that a previously discounted factor is helping to destabilize the food system: climate change.

Many of the failed harvests of the past decade were a consequence of weather disasters, like floods in the United States, drought in Australia and blistering heat waves in Europe and Russia. Scientists believe some, though not all, of those events were caused or worsened by human-induced global warming.

The latest scientific research considered valid by the New York Times, anyway.

[Apogee]

Scientists believe some, though not all, of those events...

Vague much?

I would expect the solution for all of this is to take money from some people.

[Tulpa]

As long as more than one scientist believes that, you can't say it's not true.

[Apogee]

As long as one scientist can question the theory, the theory isn't true.

That goes double for falsification and replicability.

[P Brooks]

I would rather have had them spend the extra $44B on giving people free houses than passing it off to the big banks

One way or another, that's what would have to happen; does the government just pay off the mortgage, and say, "Merry XMUS, Citizen!"? If so, the money passes through to the bank.

If you "just" tear up the mortgage, what will you tell Sheila Bair?

[John]

If you took the stimulus and tarp, I bet you could have paid off most of the mortgages in this country. Yeah, it is a goofball scheme. But it wouldn't have cost any more money. It would have at least benefited someone besides insider crooks. And could it have done any worse of a job reviving the economy?

Basically almost anything would have been better than what they did.

[Tulpa]

Well, I'm not advocating giving anyone free money. Just saying that passing it through the bank to borrowers is preferable to passing it to the bank for them to keep.

[Beingmike]

My biggest issue with what I read here is that there are several interested parties. It's obvious to me that each picks the ones they support and ignore those they don't. Where are the people that wanted to enjoy the memorial in peace in the equation...by what I read they mean squad.

[Tulpa]

There were no complaints from good little memorial visitors about the previous dancing incidents; it was just the PPs taking the initiative to be violent assholes.

I'm sure some regular visitors were annoyed by this, but oh well. Sometimes the annoyance of patriots and tyrants must mix to water the tree of liberty.

[Beingmike]

Review the chain of events and the intent of the demonstration...because neither reflect your reinterpretation. As an aside...have you ever been a police officer, riot control soldier or security guard?

[Tulpa]

From da wiki:

The statute in question is under the Code of Federal Regulations, 36 C.F.R. ? 7.96(g)(3)(ii)(C). In the Oberwetter ruling the appellate court determined that "dancing" meets the definition of "demonstration" as set forth in the statute. "The term demonstrations includes demonstrations, picketing, speechmaking, marching, holding vigils or religious services and all other like forms of conduct which involve the communication or expression of views or grievances, engaged in by one or more persons, the conduct of which has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers. This term does not include casual park use by visitors or tourists which does not have an intent or propensity to attract a crowd or onlookers." [emph mine]

[Beingmike]

And the demonstrations have no intent...how is that anything more than your opinion?

[Beingmike]

Well have you?

[Apogee]

Well Deputy Fife, have you ever seen a group dance break out into a riot? Any statistics on "Dance related criminal gateways?"

[Beingmike]

Fife says yep...I have. Now you.

[Apogee]

You're lying.

[Beingmike]

No...I have. In Iraq in 2008...I have video.

[Apogee]

You should post that - the park police would be very interested in this dire security information.

[Beingmike]

An interesting question would be...what is the limit? (I ask this to determine if you are a Libertarian or an Anarchist...very necessary distinction) And as I expected...the quiet ones are irrelevant to you, which speaks volumes about your bias.

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

A right to not be annoyed? Show your work, please...

[Beingmike]

Annoyed? Who said that? Oh you did...I almost got confused. Try harder Jerk.

[Tulpa]

I'm sure the voices in your head speak volumes about a lot of things.

[Beingmike]

Another nice maneuver...don't agree so throw feces.

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

Way to focus on the insult rather than my challenge. We call that a "pivot" in the business. You have a future in politics.

[Beingmike]

I know...

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

Of course, you know that in these parts, that's hardly a compliment.

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

But I do congratulate you for graduating the Pee-Wee Herman School of Debate.

[Beingmike]

Thank you...you seam to be something of an expert. I look forward to draining you of knowledge.

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

I have something y...naw, too easy.

[Beingmike]

I have something too...want it?

[Apogee]

...what is the limit?

I'm pretty sure the limit would be the ability to continually attract 'dancers' to the Jefferson Memorial for repeated non-profit protest demonstrations.

[Beingmike]

Sorry I need you to clarify that.

[Apogee]

Clarified now?

[Beingmike]

No.

[Res Publica Americana]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6DPeCXV5bI

Fuck yes

[Beingmike]

Fuck you!

[Res Publica Americana]

You a commie, or something??

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

Just an authoritarian ass-licker.

[Beingmike]

Nice technique...name call? Try harder...I'm still here.

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

Merely an observation.

[Tulpa]

OK, I'll switch to ignoring and encourage others to do likewise.

[Beingmike]

Ditto...don't like the challenge...stick your head in the sand...BYE!

[No]

You won't.

[Beingmike]

Damn right...I'm going to ignore myself! And no one here can stop me!

[Beingmike]

I know you are...

[Beingmike]

...but I really am!

[Beingmike]

This comment "...but I really am!" was a hack. It's been reported so please disregard it.

[Apogee]

This comment "...but I really am!" was a hack. It's been reported so please disregard it.

So you're on the 'staff' of Tony Weiner?

Is it a prank or criminal act?

[Beingmike]

Nice one (I actually find that funny)...

[Enlightened Cosmopolitans?]

You reported a spoof? You're not gonna do well here at H&R.

[Beingmike]

Really? I could have been something.

[Tulpa]

And another thing -- how does this square with the recently SCOTUS-affirmed right of Westboro Baptist Church to protest at military funerals? Are you saying that govt agents have the authority to enforce greater solemnity at a monument to a guy who's been dead and buried for nearly 200 years than at a freshly killed Marine's funeral?

[Beingmike]

Are you?

[Tulpa]

No, are you?

[Beingmike]

No are you?

[Westboro Baptist]

I'm not.

[Beingmike]

You're not?

[Westboro Baptist]

I'm not saying "that govt agents have the authority to enforce greater solemnity at a monument to a guy who's been dead and buried for nearly 200 years than at a freshly killed Marine's funeral."

[Beingmike]

For a moment there I thought you were.

[John]

Well somebody is saying it.

[herp]

The federal courts seem to be saying it.

[John]

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Could killing planet search time/4891461/story.html

We kill the planet every time we use the internet. Odd how everythign that equals freedom and openness creates carbon and kills the planet.

AGW is the one of the worst cargo cults in history.

[FAIL]

[John]

More of the high level, thoughtful discourse we have come to expect from our resident liberal trolls.

[Res Publica Americana]

You kidding me, John? That insight mind-fucked me -- THAT'S how deep and thorough it was. They sure have us true republicans/constitutionalists/libertarians on the run NOW!!!!

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

At least he didn't preface with "epic"...

[Res Publica Americana]

And for all the cock-sucking communists and statists out there, here's a reminder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6DPeCXV5bI

Sometime, somewhere, we will fuck your shit up

[Beingmike]

Agreed

[Coeus]

First comment on yotube for that video:

This music is so damn patriotic? it made me bayonet a British man

[Beingmike]

?

[FAIL explained]

bad link

[page not found

We're sorry, the page you requested is not available.

If you typed in a URL, please check the address and spelling.]

[John]

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/

Could killing planet search time/4891461/story.html

combine those two. it is the spam filter.

[Beingmike]

By the by...I have just recently realized that I fit with the libertarians while watching the Judge and Stossel on Fox. My intention is to grow as a libertarian and I won't hide under any other names...I am Beingmike. Anyone recommend good reading? Hope I haven't made any enemies yet.

[Res Publica Americana]

Atlas Shrugged was good

[Beingmike]

I read the first 1/4 of it and then forgot my old signet copy on a plane from Ft. Benning. I got a new about a month ago and can't wait to get going on it again. I intend to do my own research...but who do you consider to be the leading thinkers in libertarianism...if you don't mind.

[zoltan]

You can read nearly everything Rothbard has ever written on mises.org (and tons of other economic writers there). It is a treasure trove of information, from beginner to advanced.

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams (although they have the occasional slip into theocracy). Freidman.

[cynical]

Bastiat, The Law.

[Hobie Hanson]

The Grapes of Wrath by Lincoln Steffens.

[jacob]

@beingMike,
Read Hayek and Von Mises(sp?) Ayn Rand's Capitalism, and Anthem. Then read Adam Smith's, "The Wealth Of Nations" "Democracy in America" by De Tocqueville, for perspective. My 2 cents

[zoltan]

We had one in Austin on Saturday and no agents of the state precipitated violence! However, there was an education rally occurring at the same time to protest $4 billion in cuts to the education system. One of those protesters realized we weren't "with" them, ran up to one of the dancers and slapped his iPod out of his hands to the ground, right in front of a police officer who did nothing. Also in front of all the children he was there to "support" (by showing violence is good).

[Res Publica Americana]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMxX-QOV9tI

Listen to that song, and it's a pretty great insight into the mind of the modern Eurofaggot and liberal America -- money's a negative. Do these dipshits even know what they're talking about?

[Tulpa]

Antidote from a different era:

Petty little ayatollahs
Come around to judge and stone ya
All's we're trying to do is make a fortune.
Yeah, we ain't got no government loans,
And no one sends a check from home
But get this: we're just doin' what we wanna.

[JW]

You can learn a great deal about libertarianism here, when you aren't being a trollish prick. Which is not to say that you shouldn't disagree and argue a point here, but you'll need a thicker skin than you have currently. Stick around and engage and contribute, but lurk and learn how this place operates, unless you want everyone's impression of you to be of someone who shouldn't be taken seriously.

BTW, love 'da Judge. The man's a hero. He should geta a medal just for putting up with that shrill gunch, Nancy Skinner.

[Beingmike]

I don't see how I have a thin skin...after being a HS Physics teacher and a Infantry Squad Leader for most of my adult life, I think most of the thin stuff's been sloughed off. I ain't no TROLL...stop saying that.

[oncogenesis]

Denying that you have a thin skin is proof of thin skin.

[Beingmike]

I intend to stay here...and listen and post. Peace.

[Res Publica Americana]

I'll live and die by the Bill of Rights. Welcome to Libertopia

[capitol l]

I have a tattoo of Texas on my forehead.

[Hooha]

And remember, whenever someone uses the word Reason in scare/irony quotes, that's a drink.

[Citytrekker]

Rules on a public site?

*one* *two* *three* *four* *dip*

[Res Publica Americana]

Does anybody else here like the 'Watchmen' movie?

[cynical]

It's not as good as the book.

[Beingmike]

I think it's pretty good too, I would agree that the book is a lot better.

[Tulpa]

Judge for yourself.

[Sparky]

The movie was good, the book was better. As always, the book doesn't need to fit in a 2 hour(ish) block of time and you can take your time rereading sections to get all the meaning out of them.

[RanDomino]

I have no doubt that all of you will go straight back to demonizing Code Pink tomorrow.

[Res Publica Americana]

Kumbaya!

[jacob]

why would that be a problem?

[Free Domain]

Nice one

[?????]

dance dance .. all love it :d

[Citytrekker]

The revolution will not be televised, unless you are an armchair libertarian and are oblivious as to how cities, culture, commerce and society are created and sustained.

[Anarchos]

Ironic that the cops would shut down a dance off in a monument lined with the phrase, "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
And to all the haters: lighten the fuck up.

[Christians Louboutins]

good

[Christians Louboutins]

christians louboutins

[Christians Louboutins]

christians louboutins

[Christians Louboutins]

christians louboutins

[Christians Louboutins]

good

[Christians Louboutins]

christians louboutins

[Christians Louboutins]

WELL

[Brandon Magoon]

Why doesn't Palin get arrested for her demonstrations at all the national monuments? She is far more disruptive then the dancers were.

[Mike]

They were brain dead assholes. All the "Don't tread on me" and carrying around the constitution was a ploy. It was code red. They were being assholes. But you have a right to be an asshole. F-it, let them dance like douche bags. They look like self important socialist idiots. Medea is a moron, sounds like a moron, and is a moron wherever she goes. Making her the victim is never a good idea. They're sanctimonious ass heads, let them display it freely! Old ass creepy dirty hippies making out with each other is not going to be a threat to the Union. It just makes everyone sick in their mouth. The Bill of Rights, which they actually hate, only gives them enough rope to hang themselves. Smart guys, the founders....

[Francesco Sinibaldi]

In a spare moment....

I retain that
everything shines
while an eminent
sadness invents
an idea, so
nostalgic and
tender like
a luminous care....

Francesco Sinibaldi

[Andrew76]

Most of you here are ignorant and ridiculous and the point being made by the video is apparently way over your head. Let's spell it out for you kids:
Free speech and free assembly is guaranteed by our Constitutional rights. It is a fundamental right.
When Adam Kokesh was first arrested, it was because he didn't have a permit. A permit? On public property? Further, anyone making the property rights argument here doesn't understand property rights.
If this was private property, yes, shut them down if that's what the owner wants. Public property? Tough shit. Any fool can see that these people did not care about dancing or music.
They were protesting to make a point. Great fucking Zeus, how this is lost on you fuckwads if breathtaking and totally beyond rational understanding. IT'S A SYMBOLIC GESTURE. Welcome to 4th grade history class.

[Monica]

such a nice post, thanks for sharing

[discounted used computers and]

Although silent, Oberwetter's dancing was a conspicuous expressive act with a propensity to draw onlookers," Judge Thomas Griffith wrote for the appeals court. Judges Judith Rogers and David Tatel joined the opinion.That the dance happened near midnight on a weekend--making it less likely a crowd would form--does not make it lawful, the court said.
http://refurbished-computers.ca/

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[nike basketball]

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[goallen]

IT'S A SYMBOLIC GESTURE. Welcome to 4th grade history class.