A Conservative Defense of ObamaCare
Reagan's former solicitor general says the individual mandate passes constitutional muster
Opponents of President Barack Obama's health care program lost the legislative battle, but they have high hopes of stopping it yet. That could be accomplished by defeating Obama in 2012 and electing a Republican Congress. Or it could be done sooner, without an election, by the Supreme Court.
But one eminent conservative legal scholar says: Dream on. Harvard Law professor Charles Fried, who was solicitor general under President Ronald Reagan, believes the constitutional argument against ObamaCare is so weak that even the Roberts court will reject it.
The legal challenges argue that it rests on an unconstitutional provision: the requirement that every individual either buy health insurance or pay a fine. The chief proponent of this theory is Georgetown University law professor Randy Barnett, who says the mandate goes beyond Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce.
"Never in this nation's history has the commerce power been used to require a person who does nothing to engage in economic activity," writes Barnett. "Therefore, no decision of the Supreme Court has ever upheld such a claim of power."
The argument gained new credence when two different federal judges ruled the mandate unconstitutional (though two others disagreed). In January, District Judge Roger Vinson concluded, "If Congress can penalize a passive individual for failing to engage in commerce, the enumeration of powers in the Constitution would have been in vain."
Fried, who made an unexpected endorsement of Obama in 2008, disagrees—and says he is the norm among his ideological kindred in the academy. "I have not met any scholars who teach constitutional law and are members of The Federalist Society who think it's unconstitutional," he told me by phone, referring to the libertarian-conservative legal group.
His case is simple: Health insurance is commerce. Congress has the power to regulate commerce. Because it has that power, it may also select the means to achieve its goals. The individual mandate is a permissible way to advance the purpose of expanding access to health care.
His interpretation, says Fried, "goes back to John Marshall," a delegate to the Constitutional Convention and the most important chief justice in Supreme Court history. It was Marshall who definitively explained Congress' right "to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution" its specified powers.
"It must have been the intention of those who gave these powers to insure, so far as human prudence could insure, their beneficial execution," he wrote in 1819. "This could not be done by confiding the choice of means to such narrow limits as not to leave it in the power of Congress to adopt any which might be appropriate, and which were conducive to the end."
In this case, the mandate serves a central function. If you compel insurance companies to accept all applicants, you create an incentive for consumers to go uncovered until they get sick, which would either bankrupt insurers or inflate premiums astronomically. Requiring coverage solves that problem by maximizing the size of the insurance pool.
It also eliminates the burden of "free" care that hospitals must provide to "emergency" patients who lack insurance. If taxpayers may be forced to pay for such treatment, the thinking goes, those patients may be forced to get coverage (or else pay a fee for declining).
Fried is not persuaded by the argument that, though the government may regulate activity, regulating inactivity—the failure to buy medical insurance—is an unprecedented violation of personal liberty. Mere novelty, he says, is not disqualifying.
Nor do the Constitution's guarantees of personal liberty necessarily protect an individual's right not to do something. In 1905, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled that the state of Massachusetts could fine anyone who refused to get a smallpox vaccination—a far more intrusive and intimate command than buying insurance.
Besides regarding the mandate as constitutional, Fried sees no defensible way that most of the conservative justices could rule otherwise. Only Clarence Thomas, he says, has written opinions that can support such a narrow interpretation of the Commece Clause.
It may seem like an amazing twist that the same law professor who argues so prominently against the constitutionality of the mandate, Barnett, is a former student of Fried at Harvard Law. The professor thinks there is no real irony. "I taught Randy Barnett torts," Fried says.
Constitutional law? That he learned somewhere else.
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"It also eliminates the burden of "free" care that hospitals must provide to "emergency" patients who lack insurance. If taxpayers may be forced to pay for such treatment, the thinking goes, those patients may be forced to get coverage (or else pay a fee for declining)."
It doesn't lift the burden at all. It just shifts it onto insurance companies. And the Massachusetts case was no a commerce clause case. It was a state police power case. It is therefore not applicable to the federal government's use and limitations under the commerce clause. No one has ever said Romneycare was unconstitutional.
Not to mention the fact that the individual mandate doesn't force only ER patients to get insurance, it forces everyone to get insurance.
A burden entirely created with previous dubious federal law, no doubt justified using the commerce clause.
Is genius.
Economic damage caused by federal overreach justify further federal overreach leading to even more damage.
Haven't you figured out by now that is how all the libtard's arguments work? Barney Frank (aka Wesley Mouch) thinks that it was a LACK of regulatory authority over the financial sector that led to the crisis. So he needs more power. The economic recovery is nonexistent? Must be because the stimulus spending by the government wasnt' ENOUGH. Every failure of the statists is explained away as not having been done enough, so this time they must be given more authority over you and your money and your life and your behaviour...
I finally decided to read Atlas Shrugged about 4 years ago. Now I see it coming true. Apparently, I caused all this.
Fucker!
Oh wait... I did the same thing at the same time. Oh, shit!
Agreed. If you fail to differentiate between exercises of state police power and federal commerce clause power, then shouldn't you lose your status as "constitutional scholar?"
It reminds me of people who say that the individual health care mandate is just like car insurance mandates. No, fuckwad, it is nothing like that.
Diablo,
Look at the guy.
Constitutional Muster = (Senile recent Obama supporter+the guilt converts feel about their association with anything Reagan)^knowing you won't live long enough to have to put up with it for very long.
I'd like to see this joker explain the 10th Amendment and tell us how it really doesn't mean that bit about leaving unstated powers to the states and the people.
He's arguing jurisprudential reality, not constitutional idealism. The 10th amendment is a dead letter, unfortunately.
If the Constitution is interpreted to mean unlimited federal power, what is left for the people or the states?
We let you write that comment, didn't we?
"That he learned somewhere else."
It's a pity Fried didn't as well.
"Fried is not persuaded by the argument that, though the government may regulate activity, regulating inactivity?the failure to buy medical insurance?is an unprecedented violation of personal liberty. Mere novelty, he says, is not disqualifying."
That is just utter nonsense. No one is arguing that because it is novel it is not allowed. The problem is that if you allow non-activity to be regulated, there is no limit to what the commerce clause could allow Congress to regulate.
This guy is either stupid, dishonest or both. And he is certainly another good reason why all of the Ivy Leagues need to be turned into community colleges. Does anyone in these place believe anything but nonsense?
Ivy League schools are where impressionable minds go for indoctrination and to meet the cronies they will network with for the rest of their careers.
A good Ivy League student will accept everything they are taught without applying any critical thinking or common sense evaluation, and at the same time meet as many people as they possibly can.
Once they finish school they can use their contacts to gain a successful career in crony capitalism, politics, or both.
There is some truth to that. How does one gain admitance to such a school? By spending an entire youth telling teachers and councilors exactly what they want to hear.
How does one guarantee that they will never gain admittance to such a school? By thinking critically and questioning authority.
Libertarians need not apply.
As a high school senior (and libertarian) who was recently admitted to an Ivy League university along with other prestigious schools, I can testify against this. Narrow-mindedness of East Coast professors, who may indeed only want to hear their own opinions restated as facts, is one thing. But critical thinking skills and a broad view of the world are, in fact, important to admissions officers at top schools. I've been accepted to much better colleges than my peers at school who make better grades than me.
"Narrow-mindedness of East Coast professors, who may indeed only want to hear their own opinions restated as facts, is one thing."
I wasn't aware that there was any other kind.
Seriously though, congrats on that.
Make a lot of friends, tell people what they want to hear, and you just might have a fine career.
"Who you know" is going to matter more and more as we descend into socialism where political connections are more important than anything else.
""Who you know" is going to matter more and more as we descend into socialism where political connections are more important than anything else."
And don't forget...who you blow!
Congrats on getting in. But unless you are independently wealthy, you are wasting your money. If you are good enough to get into an Ivy, you are good enough to go somewhere else for free. Take the free education.
John:
Maybe he got a full ride to one of the Ivy leaguers. But if not, I agree with you. I passed up the Ivy's for a similar caliber institution that gave me a full ride, and I don't think it's hindered me in anyway besides not being in the skull's or a co-founder of facebook.
I did my undergrad at a free state school rather than heading to a higher priced institution. It has held me back a ton, so I'm now getting a master's at an Ivy League school. To be fair, I did mess up by not applying to enough schools as an undergrad. With my parent's incomes I likely would have gotten a full ride here at least (something I only found out this year).
Never underestimate the power of connections. It really can be worth paying the extra money just to know the right people.
"Never underestimate the power of connections. It really can be worth paying the extra money just to know the right people."
That right there is the only reason to go to an Ivy League school.
It's not the education, it's the people.
Good call. For me it was a choice between spending $200k at MIT or taking a full ride at a Big Ten school. Let's just say I'm not paying off $200k in loans.
Yeah, that seems like the correct choice. It's just that cheaper is not the correct choice for every situation.
Thank you for interjecting with something other than sweeping generalism's.
Critical thinking and broad views of the world are in fact very well looked upon by admissions at top universities.
Universities encourage different backgrounds and perspectives in their programs. You want to get into Berkley tell them you're very right wing, they'll love to have you.
I've been accepted to much better colleges than my peers at school who make better grades than me.
It's nice that the Ivies aren't sticklers for grammar. I've always imagined that they would be.
"I've been accepted to much better colleges than my peers at school who make better grades than me."
This shows Ivy's are not interested in intelligence.
Exhibit A: Hotelies.
You have nailed it.
Our resident lefties have argued that there are some things Congress is forbidden to regulate under ICC: gun-free school zones and violence against women. So extending it to inactivity does not mean Congress ipso facto can regulate everything.
The problem as I see it is that the fiction of Wickard stretched the ICC so far that it's impossible to make a rational case for any limitation of Congressional ICC power without contradicting Wickard. Lopez et al were really just ad hoc "Fuck, do we want to go this far?!" decisions, and that's exactly what a decision against Obamacare would be (unless it overturns Wickard which ain't gonna happen).
+1
The argument seems to be "sure we've given this a broad reading, but we've never extended this to inactivity before, if we do it will undermine the limited nature of the federal government", so Fried is correct that it is in part couched in it being unprecedented. He's also correct in noting that just because it's never been thought to use the power in that way doesn't mean that the power, as currently read, couldn't properly be applied to inactivity...
it could also be said that "thinking in new ways" was also a mantra in the former Soviet Union...
couldn't properly be applied to inactivity/i>
It can be applied but in no case is it
couldn't properly be applied to inactivity
It can be applied but in no case is it proper any more than Wickard was proper.
The problem is that we have a legal system which recognizes the historical legal violations of the Constitution as being more important than the Constitution itself. This of course delegitimizes the government and the law itself.
But Wickard and Raich were cases where someone was actively growing a product for which there was an existing market (and even there they massively overreached). I could be lying on my couch in a coma and the mandate would still apply to me. *Not* buying a product is *not* commerce.
If crack cocaine was legalized, could we all be forced to buy it? Congress could establish legislative findings that there is not enough demand for crack, leading to a low price, causing it to be the drug of choice among the poor, causing employment to be depressed in our inner cities. That substantially affects commerce, right?
The Wickard interpretation would seem to allow such a law. I think Wickard is a terrible ruling and should be overturned, but that's not going to happen.
To flesh this out, the Constitution does give the federal government the power to punish inactivity. An 18-year-old male can break the law while lying on the couch doing nothing if he fails to register for Selective Service, authorized by the militia clause of A1S8, a few sentences after the commerce clause. You can break the law while snoozing in your bed tonight if you don't file an income tax return by midnight. You can break federal law by leaving your Census envelope unopened in your mailbox.
Given the Wickard interpretation that the ICC gives Congress the ability to regulate anything that impacts interstate commerce, I don't see how the activity/inactivity distinction holds water.
I don't see how the activity/inactivity distinction holds water.
See Ox90 for some stunning attempts to make that sieve into a bucket.
you sir have fallen into the trap that the "smarter than the rest of the room" types have set for you...
you can squeeze the nuances of the commerce clause until you are blue in the face...
ask yourself, does Owebama Care perform as advertised?
you think that "the ones" that wrote the bill care a rats ass about anything other than power and control...
Health Care? Hah
There are already programs for the needy (oh, that's right, there is a small fee..."shit i can't pay for my cable then, man")
You want to lower costs? Make the insurance portable and limit malpractice.
(in my best Mr. Rodgers voice)"I know, you like arguing law. I knew you would. Look over here at this hand. Whoops, what just happened to your health care, the left hand took it away..."
Not a big fan of the bill. But if you are going to attack it, find an approach other than the "can't regulate inactivity" tact.
"the buying or selling of goods, especially between cities and nations..."
no buying nor selling no commerce.
it's not inactivity, screw that, it's called choice.
Congress can regulate buying and selling all they want, since i am not doing either i cannot be "regulated".
tell all the extended childhood progeny over 25 that "Zero Care" is going to force them by "regulation" into buying something...
"Dude, first 'they' took away our 4 Loco, now they're making us buy something I could care less about! They're putting a double-secret hump on us!"
But the mandate does not depend on the militia clause or the taxing power (regardless of their post hoc justifications). Under the commerce clause, even under Wickard, etc., you have to be engaged in some form of activity in order to be regulated. In Wickard, the Court says things like, "But even if appellee's *ACTIVITY* be local, and though it may not be regarded as commerce, it may still, whatever its nature, be reached by Congress if it exerts a substantial economic effect on interstate commerce, and this irrespective of whether such effect is what might at some earlier time have been defined as "direct" or "indirect."" Even Wickard never said that it could reach inactivity. Such a concept should be repulsive to free people.
So, the argument here is that the USSC won't overturn ObamaCare simply because of the precedent in Wickard? I understand that legal precedent is important to the guys in black robes, but old cases do get overturned by new precedents. I'm not convinced that this Court will allow such an interpretation of the Commerce Clause just because of Wickard.
Oh, it's possible that they'll overturn ObamaCare anyway without touching Wickard or Raich, by coming up with some legal contortion to do so as they did in Lopez. The inactivity/activity distinction seems a convenient theme to follow, but I seriously don't see how it's compatible with Wickard.
Have you read the government's brief in the appeal to the 11th Circuit? Even where they are citing to Wickard and Raich, they can't help but use the term "activity" or some synonym, because that is what the decisions said. You can't honestly tell me that there is no difference between "if you engage in this specific activity, you must do so in this manner" and "you must engage in this specific activity." One is regulation, the other is compulsion. You can avoid regulations by not engaging in that activity. You can't avoid the compulsion of the mandate, since it applies to you simply for existing.
Fried likely disagrees with this law John, he just reads the caselaw as putting the objections in a tight spot. I realize for fanatical partisans like you that makes him TEH ENEMY and an ELITE (horrors!), but come on, let a little nuance into your black and white world, your animosity aimed at this guy is, as is often the case, misdirected at best.
I love you constantly project your own vices onto everyone who disagrees with you. I don't care if he disagrees with it or not. I also don't care that he is a Republican. What he said is nonsense. If you would like to respond to the substance of that feel free. Otherwise go find somewhere else to work through your psychological issues regarding partisan loyalty and intellectual honestly. Honestly, I don't think posting on here and projecting your neurosis onto everyone else is helping.
Yeah, the guy who goes off on two minute hates every time he disagrees with someone, accusing them of liberal bias and/or elitism thinks it is unhealthy...
If I were a partisan I would defend the guy. He is a Republican afterall.
A partisan would go after Fried twice as hard since he betrayed his team.
I venture that this logic applies in this situation.
Speaking of logic. Law has always had a big problem. It is based on the opinion of someone in a position of power and on precedent. Rarely on logic or reason.
"Ivy Leagues need to be turned into community colleges. Does anyone in these place believe anything but nonsense?'
Ivy Leagues graduate some of the dumbest turds to crawl this earth. Kerry, Gore, Bush (two of them) and Obama, but the list goes on.
Top. Men.
""This guy is either stupid, dishonest or both. ""
I don't think so. If you look at the historical expansion of the commerce clause. Those who believe the commerce clause is almighty are, as Sheen would say, winning. I'm guessing Fried's opinion is based from precedents. SCOTUS may disappoint many of us on this issue and side with Obama since they have been participants in the great commerce clause expansion.
Yeah, it's scary. I assume this guy also thinks that "necessary and proper" means Congress can legislate away the rest of the Bill of Rights too...?
Uh, the Constitution actually enshrines "mere novelty" as an officially BAD THING in the 8th Amendment. "Cruel and unusual" are not defined. Novelty is what defines the entire protection.
Obviously, this isn't a Cruel or Unusual case (though it certainly could become one if someone is imprisoned for failing to purchase insurance). But the notion that a novel violation of personal liberty is not even problematic is false, and I believe there is plenty of case law that turns on just that question.
Whatever doctrine one adheres to (originalism, "living document", strict constructionism, original public understanding, etc.), the notion of "novelty" is an important, maybe even vital, component of how one interprets the Constitution.
The real question that should actually be asked is there anything that the American commerce law can NOT touch ?
Here are some hypotheticals for left wingers, lets say that the government wants to ban koran burnings, the way to achieve it is simple, because anti-US riots in foreign countries are harmful to US commerce, the burning of korans is banned under the commerce clause. Another one, lets say that buying foreign cars is found harmful to US commerce, then the commerce clause can be invoked to make people buy America cars. If left wingers think that this is different please elaborate how these scenarios are different.
Not a left winger, but that would seem to run afoul of the First Amendment, so whether it is allowed by the commerce clause is irrelevant.
wait a minute, with all the "outreach" going on, especially towards Islam, how much of a reach would it be to instate something in the matter of national security?
Compelling state interest, blah blah blah.
It's going to have to pass a much higher level of scrutiny to get past 1A questions than it would if the issue were simply the ICC. Very few blanket bans on speech acts have survived judicial review.
All it takes is five hands.
Wrong. The first amendment contradicts the commerce clause and must therefore be ignored. After speech certainly affects commerce.
The second example is actually done already; the govt can ban imports of certain items or, as in the case of sugar and shrimp, it can set prohibitively high tariffs to achieve a similar effect.
Here's another one. Assume that, eventually, we see Islamic groups protesting in the US as they are in other countries. And let's assume those protests turn violent. Keeping the peace is definitely a function of government, so Congress passes a law outlawing ALL religions (since they can't single out one group).
Yes, I know the first amendment protects religious freedom, but the crux of the pro-ObamaCare argument is that if an otherwise unconsitutional provision is necessary to a legitimate goal, then the provision becomes constitutional.
That's how this interpretation can be used to turn an unconstitutional power grab into a perfectly acceptable exercide of power.
the crux of the pro-ObamaCare argument is that if an otherwise unconsitutional provision is necessary to a legitimate goal, then the provision becomes constitutional.
No, that only works because of the "necessary and proper" clause at the end of the list of enumerated powers in A1S8 (which includes the commerce clause). It doesn't apply to amendments or any other part of the Constitution.
Tulpa thanks for taking the time to point out the fact that the retarded fears being voiced here are addressed in Con law already.
This only reinforces my contention that the Bill of Rights is far too wordy. They should have gone with "Congress shall make no law..." and just left it at that.
But the Federal govt. cannot (directly) mandate vaccinations, big difference.
Yes they can; military members are routinely orderedto get vaccinations. As with the state case, it's just a condition of government employment as opposed to a condition of existing.
The MA law applies to everyone. Of course I could just move to another state if I don't like vaccinations. I could also choose not the join the military if I don't want vaccinations. Big difference.
what about the draft? Where the Vietnam era soldiers force vaccinated?
The draft has always been carved out as kind of a special exception. It goes with the military power and the obligation to defend the country not the commerce clause.
Or perhaps the draft was unconstitutional as well, since there is already this well regulated militia providing for defense.
The power to raise armies is not the same as the power to draft. The army is voluntary, while militias consist of the entirety of the able bodied people in their respective polities.
In short the draft is unconstitutional.
"In short the draft is unconstitutional."
You may think that but no court has ever ruled that way. And even if one did, it wouldn't be on the basis of the commerce clause. The draft is a different debate.
While no court has ruled that way Taney did prepare an opinion on the unconstitutionality of conscription when it seemed like a case would come to the court.
What does the power to raise armies mean?
The Federal gov't can draft "U.S. Citizens". According to Black's Law Dictionary, there are several definitions of "United States". If you have a socialist security number, you are a U.S. Citizen, "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof." That's how they launched a war on drugs without having to amend the Constitution. Common Law does not apply to U.S. Citizens. Ask any military member. Bonus points - what does the gold fringe on the U.S. flag mean?
but two opinions on the net
And
Which is it?
The smart money says the 2nd point - it's all about jurisdiction. It's no accident that they use a flag that isn't confined by the Constitution.
The power to offer pay to people willing to sign up?
Remember that, in the 1780s, it was assumed that Congress would only have powers that are actually given to it. Therefore, the Constitution specified that Congress could do this.
Now, of course, we would just justify raising armies as a necessary and proper part of regulating commerce.
Oops, I thought that said "fire" when in fact it was "fine." Never mind, then.
... I could just move to another state ...
You could choose not to live.
"It also eliminates the burden of 'free' care that hospitals must provide to 'emergency' patients who lack insurance."
So let's say that you, the uninsured, have a bad reaction to an antibiotic prescribed you by a clinic. The result puts you in the emergency room, and consequently, in a hospital room for five days while the doctors scratch their heads trying to figure out the nature of the problem. During this time, you quite literally wish to die, morphine notwithstanding, and after the cause is known, are told that you very well might have had you waited much longer to come in. Over the course of the stay, they finally put two and two together (though your family members, who brought you in, correctly diagnosed the cause upon arrival, and were ignored, the doctors only reaching the same conclusion after three days of saying "we don't have any idea what it is"), switch you to a different antibiotic, and keep you there under observation to ensure that the issue runs its course without incident. Upon release, you owe the hospital fifteen grand or so, the payment of which they offer to put on a financing plan.
How is that free care? Are there some magic words you were supposed to say to make it so?
Excellent point. Their are other ways to deal with the "issue" of "free-riders". This exists, to some extent, in every segment of the economy.
Anyone who receives some sort of public assistance to be a "free rider". If Obamacare is justifiable because it addresses "free riders", then any laws that violate the rights of citizens receiving public funds is also justifiable.
Landscaping mandate?
Yes. You are supposed to say these words: "I am broke and penniless."
If you have a penny in your pocket, though, you'd be lying.
Apparently constitutional "scholarship" is primarily concerned with shredding and ignoring the plain meaning of the constitution.
But there is no "plain meaning".
It is very nuanced, and only a highly trained Ivy League graduate is capable of understanding that nuance.
For example a rube like you might think the words "Congress shall make no law" means something like, I dunno, "Congress shall make no law".
You are wrong.
What that really means is "Congress shall make any law, and only under extreme circumstances will the law be overturned by the courts."
You probably think "shall not be infringed" means something like "shall not be infringed".
Again you would be wrong. What that really means is "shall be routinely infringed, except under extreme circumstances where the courts may overturn a law".
What a rube you are.
Bet you didn't know that one of the roots of the word nuance also means fog...or perhaps it means miasma - you know how nuanced such things as word meanings can be.
Unfortunately, the plain meaning means bupkus when dealing with an actual court.
All I can say is that the reasoning is faulty. The logic goes:
"In this case, the mandate serves a central function. If you compel insurance companies to accept all applicants, you create an incentive for consumers to go uncovered until they get sick, which would either bankrupt insurers or inflate premiums astronomically. Requiring coverage solves that problem by maximizing the size of the insurance pool."
With that logic, anybody wanting to do anything unconstitutional... say slavery... would just have to think up a scheme in which slavery would be necessary to making it work, and voila!
If this interpretation prevails, imaginative bureaucrats could do literally anything they wanted to do... and the Constitution wasn't written to be interpreted like that.
Slavery would violate an amendment which supercedes A1S8. Think of a better example.
The crux of the pro-ObamaCare argument is that an otherwise unconstitutonal provision is central to a legitimate power of Congress, then that provision becomes constitutional. Using that logic, my example stands.
It is basically question begging. When the supports of this are asked "where do you get the power to do this?", they respond "we can't enact our scheme without it". Well so what? I couldn't enact my scheme to bring back the confederacy and reinstitute slavery because of the 13th Amendment. If something can't be enacted without using unconstitutional means, then the scheme is unconstitutional. That is the whole question.
As stated above, the argument you mention depends on the "necessary and proper" clause at the end of A1S8 and only applies to the enumerated powers in that section. It doesn't cancel amendments or any other part of the Constitution.
The amendment in question isn't "cancelled", the unconstitutional nature of the provision in question is overlooked... using the logic being promoted by the liberals, here. So, an amendment outlawing slavery is still in effect, but THIS law allowing slavery stands as constitutional, because the slavery provision was essential to carrying out an otherwise constitutional law passed by Congress.
I don't see what you're complaining about, here... this is what the libs are claiming is the correct interpretation of the Constitution.
Obamacare violates the fifth amendment, "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.", so it is comparable example.
Just compensation, in this case, is affordable health care. See, you don't get to decide what is just.
Slavery would violate an amendment which supercedes A1S8. Think of a better example.
Nah, you just don't call it slavery - instead you call it something like Selective Service. Or a healthcare insurance mandate.
Kinetic man-caused involuntary employment.
They call it taxes.
(My post redundant with "healthcare insurance mandate", my apologies)
Congress has the constitutional power to legislate over interstate commerce. In fact, health care is not interstate commerce. Insurance companies must be specially permitted by the several states in their quest to do business in individual states. Therefore, it is not interstae commerce.
It's funny to see conservative literal textualists wrestle with this. Suddenly there is all this implied stuff going on (if we read it literally then it undermines the intention to create a limited government, etc).
You're problem is with the Founders for writing such a broad, unqualified grant of power in the Commerce Clause. If it's interstate commerce the federal government has "the power...to regulate" it, period.
Get in a time machine and take it out on them.
"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes"
There is nothing in that statement that is necessarily broad. For the first half of the nation's history it was read quite narrowly. All evidence indicates that it was meant to be narrow. It is inconcievable that the founders would have ratified a Consitution giving the federal government the powers it enjoys today. It is possible to read it broadly? Sure. But it is just as possible to read it narrowly. Your argument boils down to "we have twisted this language into something broad, if you don't like it take it out". The idea that your broad interpretation might be up for debate never enters your mind.
It contains no qualifications or limitations on the power "to regulate" commerce among the states. That is broad if you are familiar with the rest of the Constitution which often does narrow powers with such things.
"All evidence indicates that it was meant to be narrow."
Not true. The whole reason for the Constitutional Convention was to come up with a more vigorous federal government capable of solving national problems in ways the nice, limited Articles of Confederation was found wanting.
It contains a big qualification "commerce between the states". Not all commerce, just that commerce. And what does "commerce" mean? The term itself is limited. For example, it has never been interpreted to grant the federal government general police powers, even though you could argue that even purely local crime affects commerce.
Randy Barnett (mentioned in the article) does a very good job of showing that commerce was ONE THING...TRADE, and that the power to regulate was in regard to the states not people.
If you care anything about the truth (unlikely) here are some links...
http://randybarnett.com/Original.htm
http://randybarnett.com/55ark847.html
Regulate means to enable it happen in a regular manner, not force people to participate.
Reply was to MNG, not John.
Anyway, John is correct there concerning the phrase "between the states". If the power was over commerce itself, then the clause would have been
To regulate commerce
and not
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes
""To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes""
Among the citizenry is also absent.
wheeeeee, it's fun when you ignore history...
do you actually think that the Revolution was fought just over a tea tax...
The Founding Fathers were fighting for freedom from an over-reaching government...
Then, once they have their freedom, they write laws that bring back that same type of government that constrains the very freedoms they fought for...
"Pretzels!Get your hot Pretzels!"
Right, the taxes they were protesting were REVENUE taxes, and not those necessary to enable commerce, which they were okay with.
They were also protesting a far away government making laws for their internal functions and were okay with the British government making laws to regulate commerce, which was an external matter.
When one looks at the enumerated powers, one sees a neat divide of that which is for the military..an external power, and that which deals with commerce as it relates to citizens of one state engaging in commerce in another state, so as to not give advantage to the people of any one state against another.
Commerce = trade
Regulate = make regular
Among the several states != intrastate (like, say, health insurance)
It's a broad grant only to people who want to wield broad power, in which case words, no matter how specific (shall make no law), are irrelevant.
Of course there are limitations:
1) Among the several states - Commerce had to be interstate in nature (at least that used to be the case).
2) Commerce - Some kind of commercial activity. Obama and the Dems seem to think that respiration is commercial activity.
3) 10th Amendment - Why reserve powers to the states if the Feds are going to be granted limitless powers?
4) Other A1S8 Powers - Why go to the trouble of listing other Article I Section 8 powers, if commerce was intended to be all inclusive? Constitutional language is assumed to not be duplicative.
So why would the Founders bother to enumerate various powers for the Federal Government if they also wanted to give it unlimited power to regulate everything?
Do you think the Constitution requires the government to execute those enumerated powers and then allows the government to do anything else it wants?
Interstate commerce = deals and de facto treaties between state governments in order to prevent conflict between the various constituents of the confederacy.
Private entities and individuals engaging in interstate trade DOES NOT QUALITY.
*Qualify, and that was to all the asshats arguing for ObamaCare.
No, you're just being willfully obtuse. The power to regulate is not the power to compel. If not, then one may as well argue that income taxing power not only covers the power to tax incomes which are made, but also to compel the making of incomes, for the purpose of taxing them.
interesting view 0x90
"The power to regulate is not the power to compel."
That's just goofy. The power to regulate, i.e., to make rules about, certainly includes the power to compel. Many rules compel people to do things.
If that is true, then why can't the federal government compel people to work in order to collect income taxes? My having a job certainly affects commerce. Under your interpretation why couldn't the federal government require the idle rich or adults who live on someone else's income, say housewives or idiot sons of rich people to get jobs?
You yankees don't compel people to work? Ridiculous! If it weren't for the labor brigades, I'd never have been able to build the gulags!
Love,
Uncle Joe
If that is true, then why can't the federal government compel people to work in order to collect income taxes?
What makes you think they can't, John? Just because they haven't tried it yet, doesn't mean much.
Or pay a fine for not working if you like.
You can buy my product, or pay for not buying it.
Thuggery at it's finest?
No, regulate means to keep regular, mainly by removing impediments.
Why do you feel the need to frame this in other terms? To regulate is not to make rules, it is to regulate -- to make regular. So stop trying to twist the language.
If you want to argue that the fed gov should have the power to compel action, then just say so -- it is not that contention with which I have a problem, it is your persistent intellectual dishonesty. Personally, I think it's all neither here nor there -- if the unilateral assumption of authority is a justifiable concept, it's silly to try to argue its limits based on some arbitrarily-conceived logical framework. By definition, such an authority is limited only by its self-restraint.
He believes the founders meant "make rules" with regulate even though they specifically use the phrasing elsewhere, for example:
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
Why would they say "make rules for" and grant the power to "make regulation" if they meant the same thing?
Sha na na na, sha na na na na,
Sha na na na, sha na na na na,
Sha na na na, sha na na na na,
Sha na na na, sha na na na na,
Yip yip yip yip yip yip yip yip
Mum mum mum mum mum mum
Get a job
whenever someone starts to play the Owebama Care violin i say:
did you ever hear of the $600.00 hammers or the $1,000.00 toilet seats,
did you know that the federal government started writing I.O.U.s to S.S. back in the Johnson administration,
did you know that there are a dozen or so gub'mint departments that administrate programs that overlap each others programs,
do you know that some of our legislators do not READ the bills that become laws because they too hard to read and understand...
and somehow you have the expectation that the Gub'mint is going to get YOUR HEALTHCARE correct and be able to keep costs, confusion, malfeasance, lobbyists, special exceptions to a minimum...
sheeesh, the private sector is bad enough (profit motive) now you want to add the Gub'mint cesspool to the mix?
I like to invoke the Post Office, FEMA (in particular, the response to Katrina), the DoD, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The last three, at least, generally leave the lefties uncomfortable.
""did you ever hear of the $600.00 hammers or the $1,000.00 toilet seats,""
But the thing about this $5,000 wrench is not only can you use it to put the bolt on, you can take it off too.
Not an exact quote, but paraphrasing what a defense contractor said to Congress.
Did it come in pretty colors?
that's the $10,000.00 model...
lol
I don't know why I'm going to bother since it is clear that you only care about the definition of 'regulate', but:
You realize there is a second half to that sentence, right? Your problem is with the Founders for writing such a clear, strict limitation of power in the Commerce Clause. Congress only has the power to regulate commerce "with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes".
Get in a time machine and take it out them.
I already plan to punish them for putting the militia clause and all that confusing punctuation in the Second Amendment, so it's not out of my way.
Constitution:
"general welfare... regulate commerce... necessary and proper"
IOW Congress can do whatever it wants, so fuck you.
This. Sit on it and rotate, and pay cash for the experience.
Realistically, this will not be the case because a segment of our society will never purchase insurance: the itinerant, mentally ill, and chronically irresponsible. Will EMTALA be still in force? Will hospitals still pass on charges to other paying patients?
They may not purchase insurance themselves, but we will provide it. So, rest assured, you as a paying patient will not have to pick up their tabs.
Yes, and another segment of our society will never purchase insurance: cancer survivors with pre-existing conditions. The premiums are astronomical.
Damn that scarcity problem.
Can you be broke, unemployed, uninsured, with a history of cancer and be a libertarian?
Only if you can be 'broke' while owning day-of-the-week monocles.
Absolutely. Maybe you have a very caring family. Or maybe you just have enough dignity to not force others to care for you...
broke unemployed uninsured guy, your palm flower crystal has changed color to black: you're fucked
The argument is pretty ingenious really - draft legislation that creates a moral hazard problem, and then claim that you must be granted expanded powers in order to solve that problem.
This is government at its finest - the more you screw things up, the more power you get.
Or at least the more money you get.
"Will hospitals still pass on charges to other paying patients?"
Nope, but the government will.
Their is no way to get around the "free rider" issue. Whether you are paying higher premiums to cover the cost of care for the uninsured, or paying taxes to subsidize insurance for the poor, cost shifting takes place.
You mean the hospitals will stop charging $25 for a Tylenol? 😉
I am and I vote!
"Reagan's former solicitor general says the individual mandate passes constitutional muster."
Then he has his head up his ass...this is no surprise.
Let me see if I understand this,
1. I pay into a social security fund, which involves me in interstate commerce.
2. (This part will be hard to imagine, so try hard) The Social Security Fund runs out of money.
3. I need to work more to contribute more to help keep the fund solvent.
4. I become able to retire early and decide to stop working.
5. Congress regulates my lack of activity by requiring those who choose not work to either get back to work or face a fine (equal to what they would have contributed by working)?
Let me see if I understand this,
1. I pay into a social security fund, which involves me in interstate commerce.
2. (This part will be hard to imagine, so try hard) The Social Security Fund runs out of money.
3. I need to work more to contribute more to help keep the fund solvent.
4. I become able to retire early and decide to stop working.
5. Congress regulates my lack of activity by requiring those who choose not work to either get back to work or face a fine (equal to what they would have contributed by working)?
sorry for the double
If we were to ask this Charles Fried guy to give an example of ANY sort of legislation that expands the power of government that he would consider to be unconstitutional -- I wager that he could not come up with one single thing. Not one.
Statists are pretty much the same, no matter which party they come from. To them considering the idea of "limited powers" is like being dunked in a vat of acid. Of course whatever they want to do is constitutional -- just 'cuz. Everything involves commerce in some way!
Let me explain how your breathing can be regulated under the commerce clause using their favorite precedents. If you are breathing on your own and without supplemental oxygen or a respirator you are negatively impacting the growth of the medical oxygen industry and also affecting commerce in all the nation-wide industries that supply parts to the medical oxygen industry. By not buying these products you have affected interstate commerce and thus engaged in interstate commerce. Your breathing is now subject to regulation under the constitution.
People like this don't care if it's the other party expanding the government, because when it's their turn back in office they'll have a pre-expanded government waiting for them. And what could be more "constitutional" to statists than forcing you to buy the products of their biggest campaign donors...?!?!
If you seriously think the political class is going to limit its own power and judge its own machinations to be unconstitutional, think again!
That is why the only recourse available is nullification.
His case is simple: Health insurance is commerce. Congress has the power to regulate commerce.
Fried is missing a word, here. "Interstate", I believe. Health insurance may pay out across state lines, but it is not purchased across state lines due to state regulation of insurance.
The relevant market here is the market for purchasing health insurance, not the market for medical services. So there's strike one.
Then he slides into necessary and proper. But you don't get there unless there is an enumerated power being exercised. So that's strike two.
And somehow, because the federal government does something colossaly stupid that may or may not be within its powers (eliminating pre-existing condition exclusions), that makes the corresponding mandate to fix the colossally stupidity ipso facto Constitutional? We'll call that one a foul tip.
And he winds up arguing that because the states can prohibit non-exonomic inactivity (namely, refusal to get vaccinations), then the feds can prohibit economic inactivity. Strike three.
This passes as serious legal analysis? Really?
This passes as serious legal analysis? Really?
Well it does in our current legal system, the basis of which is that anything that interferes with the right of the government to exist is forbidden.
Well, see, it's necessary to fix the problem they caused... As long as you define necessary to mean 'one of the options', since they could of course 'fix' the problem of free riders by removing the rules that eliminate preexisting conditions exclusions.
"Harvard Law professor Charles Fried, who was solicitor general under President Ronald Reagan, believes the constitutional argument against ObamaCare is so weak that even the Roberts court will reject it."
I believe they will reject it anyway, no matter how strong an argument. Why? Because they're a pack of dishonorable and dishonest reprobates who care more about preserving or increasing government power than they do about this country or the Constitution.
Personally, I like the hypothetical that retiring is a decision to engage in economic inactivity, therefor, the federal government can require that everyone work 8 hours a day. Those who can't find jobs in the private economy can be drafted into federal programs to sweep sidewalks, pick up litter, spy on their neighbors, etc.
At what point does Fried's analysis prohibit this?
I'll get back to you on that.
At what point does Fried's analysis prohibit this?
His argument rests on an If/then statement. IF you compel insurance companies to accept all comers, THEN...
I don't see an equivalent IF/THEN in your hypothetical. Flesh it out and we can examine it.
As noted, the If/Then statement actually fails to move the argument forward, because (1) it assumes that eliminating pre-existing conditions exclusions is a regulation of interstate commerce (which it may not be, given that health insurance is not purchased and sold across state lines), and (2) it assumes that anything done to solve a problem created by government is a necessary and proper exercise of government power.
However, taking this challenge at face value, nothing could be easier:
(1) IF people refuse to work, interstate commerce is impacted (surely this is unquestionably true), THEN requiring people to work is a legitimate exercise of federal power.
I would argue that this formulation is stronger than Fried's, because it does not rest on "necessary and proper" and government-created problems, but directly on the commerce clause. But, if you want to mirror Fried's "analysis":
(2) IF you compel businesses to remit payroll and income tax withholding to fund the government, THEN we must also compel everyone to work to ensure sufficient revenues.
(2) IF you compel businesses to remit payroll and income tax withholding to fund the government, THEN we must also compel everyone to work to ensure sufficient revenues.
That is not equivalent to the IF/THEN presented by Fried. Your IF does not create an extra burden on the business when a citizen decides not to work. It actually works the other way around. To be parallel to Fried's IF/THEN you would need to limit the number of workers to reduce the load on businesses. The parallel in your hypothetical would result in compelling retirement rather than compelling employment.
""Your IF does not create an extra burden on the business when a citizen decides not to work.""
I guess your key word is business. People who do not work do place a burden on government by decreasing the needed revenue.
RC's IF aside. Since when should it matter to government if private businesses have enough customers?
In Fried's analogy, the rule (aimed at a compelling state interest) creates a problem for businesses, so there needs to be something to balance that problem with the state has created in their attempt to solve their problem.
Sorta, kinda like a just compensation in an Eminent domain case (if you will allow me to stretch an analogy almost to the breaking point).
Excessive spending creates a problem for the feds, the solution is mandating people to have a job to pay taxes.
Even candidate Obama had an analogy.
I wonder if he plans to solve the homeless problem by mandating people to buy houses.
Excessive spending creates a problem for the feds, the solution is...
In Fried's IF/THEN statement party S creates a problem for Party B that benefits Party C unless Parties D participates. In your/RC Dean's IF/THEN Party S creates a problem for Party S. It is structurally different. There is not slippery slope from one to the other.
Ah, ok. Sounds like B,C, and D should tell S to undo that which created the problem. But I digress.
TV,
Indeed. I wonder if their is a mechanism in place for B,C & D t make their wishes known along these lines.
the Fed printing money!
fify
for MD 5:09
At what point does Wickard interpretation of ICC (currently the law of the land) prohibit this?
You're arguing about angels on pins if you ignore that.
RC, you're a lawyer, so I'll ask you: when you're advising a client, do you base your advice on what you think the law says and how you think it should be interpreted, or do you base it on how courts have actually interpreted the law in question? For your career's sake, I hope it's the latter.
Fried, who made an unexpected endorsement of Obama in 2008,
Senile dementia is a tragedy. Does Reason really need to humiliate this man by reporting on him?
-jcr
this ^
The law is what ever the people in power say it is!
Chucky's surname denotes his brain condition and of course Chapman's as well.
Fried loses this one. Randy Barnett ran circles around his logic at the hearing a few months ago.
Logic has nothing to do with it. We're talking law here!
Why do you feel the need to frame this in other terms? To regulate is not to make rules, it is to regulate -- to make regular. So stop trying to twist the language.
How would you "make it regular" in this context without making rules? And, logically, if regulating means "making it regular" it means encouraging activity when there is too little, and discouraging activity when there is too much. When there is no activity, this would include compelling activity and having the power to stop activity althogether. Whatever mechanism you use (even in your "not making rules" scheme) would have to both encourage/compel and discourage/stop to keep things regular.
Congress would have the power to prevent New Jersey from implementing a tariff on goods from New York when it doesn't apply the same to New Jersey goods.
It doesn't have anything do do with the amount of the activity, it has to do with making interstate commerce regular.
Article 1, Section 10 already takes care of that:
So that's not the intent of the commerce clause in A1S8.
It's apparently completely inconceivable to you that the Framers could have simultaneously placed a limitation on states in Article 1, Section 10, and given Congress the authority to enforce that limitation via the Commerce Clause.
Section 10 was not really placing a limitation on the states. If you read the debates you will see that this is actually an exception acknowledging the states needs to fund inspections.
Oh come on. A paragraph beginning with "No state shall" isn't supposed to be a limitation on the states? Most of that paragraph has nothing to do with inspection fees, but rather with duties and imposts. Again, your argument requires the framers to be an exceptionally verbose bunch.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof...not vague directions to unnamed debates.
Unnamed debates? Ok read the federal convention debates for yourself. I'm merely pointing out that this concurrent power needed to be acknowledged somewhere, and that the framers chose article 10 for that purpose.
Verbose? No. As it was a given that under the commerce power the states would no longer be able to discriminate in fees or levies or what have one, this power was best placed in Article 10. Do you have a better, less "verbose" place to situate this taxing power? If not, shut it.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18t.....es_828.asp
Mr. MADISON moved that the words "nor lay imposts or duties on imports" be transferred from art: XIII where the consent of the Genl. Legislature may licence the act-into art: XII which will make the prohibition on the States absolute. He observed that as the States interested in this power by which they could tax the imports of their neighbors passing thro' their markets, were a majority, they could give the consent of the Legislature, to the injury of N. Jersey, N. Carolina &c-
Yes, I do find it implausible that the writers placed in Section 8 the enforcement clause of a prohibition on state action that is found in Section 10, and didn't use the same vocabulary at all. From section 10 we see what they wrote when they meant to forbid interstate tariffs; it wasn't "Congress shall regulate interstate commerce."
And of course, there are numerous prohibitions on state activities that are stated once in the Constitution and never mentioned again, such as granting a title of nobility, building navies, and making their own currencies. Presumably the writers intended for these prohibitions to authorize congressional enforcement in themselves, with no separate enforcement clause necessary.
Your argument fails in that congress is authorized to grant letters of margue and reprisal in section 8, and the states forbidden in section 10, among others.
The nature of regulation's implementation is neither specified, nor even at issue. My point, which you have missed, is that it is a perversion of language to state one's intention of regulating a thing which does not exist. One may require that it be brought into existence, and consequently proceed to regulate it afterward, but these are two separate and very different things.
I do not care whether you believe that both are justifiable; if so, state your position and attempt to formulate a cogent argument in its favor. I simply prefer that you don't insult my intelligence by claiming that they are the same when they are not.
My point, which you have missed, is that it is a perversion of language to state one's intention of regulating a thing which does not exist.
You are working pretty hard to twist your own language here. In what sense is this "regulating a thing which does not exist"? The "commerce" (an abstract term describing the collective activities of many, many people) exists. People buy and sell health insurance. Congress is claiming the power to regulate that commerce by establishing rules of conduct for both sides of the exchange (seller, who can't refuse a customer AND buyer, who needs to buy from someone, even if the get to choose from whom they sell).
There are certainly many levels at which this claim to power can be attacked, but I don't see the claim to regulation of buyer activity as much different than that of claiming the power to regulate the seller side of the commerce in the way that it is being implemented here.
It seems the claim to regulate buyer behavior is premised on the fact that all buyers will at some point make a decision to participate in medical commerce, but that certain types of behavior put the system of medical commerce in danger of being "irregular." The law seems to compel people to use insurance as the means for conducting medical commerce, rather than a cash-at-point-of-service behavior that some would prefer, but I don't see that it requires that commerce to "be brought into existence."
AND buyer, who needs to buy from someone, even if theY get to choose from whom they sell buy)
Talk about twisting language. Sorry.
Nice try, but you couldn't torture that line of reasoning any more if you took it to Gitmo. As it stands, I'm perfectly content to leave it to the court of public opinion as to which of us is arguing in bad faith.
Let us return to the context: you were responding to a claim that "The power to regulate, i.e., to make rules about, certainly includes the power to compel. Many rules compel people to do things." You claimed that this "twisted language." You then put forth a pretty dubious semantic rejoinder
To regulate is not to make rules, it is to regulate -- to make regular
You consider that an example of arguing in good faith? Have you looked the word up in a dictionary? Most dictionary definitions will include the concept of "rules", of "governing", of "directing". In all cases this would include the power to compel. While it is certainly possible to consider compelling a certain class of action as a different kind of regulation than placing boundaries on the form that action takes once it is initiated, it is hardly arguing in bad faith to claim that the power to regulate includes both. For the record, I am one of the "public court" that felt like expressing my opinion on whether you or MNG were arguing in "bad faith." In this particular case it seems you are the more egregious violator. At least imho. I have stated why I see your rhetoric as lacking intellectual honesty. If you want to argue honestly, then you can "state your position and attempt to formulate a cogent argument in its favor" with relying on accusations that the person putting forth a different position is arguing in bad faith and twisting language.
Again I twist language "with relying" = "without relying"
You are taking me out of context. It should've been clear that statement was made for the purpose of preventing MNG's attempt at switching to a looser terminology (i.e. making rules, in place of regulate), and thereby to lose the point in ambiguity. You should have comprehended that without being told.
Your attempt to erase the non-existence of trade on the part of the non-participating individual by means of the unrelated observation that a health insurance market does indeed exist between many active participants rings hollow; it still does not exist for the individual, upon whom the indiviual mandate means to act (this also, you should not need to have been told). Your attempt to confuse the act of purchasing health insurance with the act of purchasing medical services, and to then contend that the law 'seems' to purposefully confuse the two is both contrived and ridiculous on its face -- we are not concerned here with buyers and sellers, but with non-buyers. If you can compel the non-buyer to buy, you can also compel the non-seller to sell.
As such, the original statement stands: the power to regulate is not the power to compel. To regulate is to regulate; the only question it implies is: to regulate what? You argue by various means that the non-existence of this what is equivalent to its existence; I disagree and say this is a perversion of language, undertaken for the expedience of coloring a desired outcome in shades of the constitution, whatever that is ultimately worth. Not much, in my estimation, but do what you will.
Can you point to one other instance in which I am personally compelled by force on the federal government's part to engage in trade where I otherwise would not have done so? But that is not a sound argument: there is a first time for everything. My personal objection is not constitutional in nature; it is purely pragmatic. While I do object to the mandate, the real question is: what other types of 'public good' we might be compelled to in the future, if such a degenerate reading is allowed to stand now. I imagine someone like Palin or Huckabee (and/or similarly-aligned houses of congress) might have all kinds of neat ways to use an ill-defined power like that. It is where you will end up though, if you insist on forcing words to mean things that they don't mean.
for some reason the idea of the gub'mint forcing people to marry and have children to promote commerce came to mind...
the lefties would have a bird over that...
You are taking me out of context.
No I am not.
It should've been clear that statement was made for the purpose of preventing MNG's attempt at switching to a looser terminology (i.e. making rules, in place of regulate), and thereby to lose the point in ambiguity.
The looser terminology is the one you are attempting to foist on us.
You should have comprehended that without being told.
Your are not difficult to understand.
Your attempt to erase the non-existence of trade on the part of the non-participating individual by means of the unrelated observation that a health insurance market does indeed exist between many active participants rings hollow; it still does not exist for the individual, upon whom the indiviual mandate means to act (this also, you should not need to have been told).
I am erasing non-existent things? Ignoring the number of negatives compounded in that statement, let's just note that the commerce being regulated exists. The primary commerce being regulated is the purchase of medical care, the mechanism for regulating that purchase is the insurance that pays for it (in our system), and the number of individuals who never, ever participate in that commerce is vanishingly small.
Your attempt to confuse the act of purchasing health insurance with the act of purchasing medical services, and to then contend that the law 'seems' to purposefully confuse the two is both contrived and ridiculous on its face -- we are not concerned here with buyers and sellers, but with non-buyers.
We are not convinced you speak for us, but in this discussion both those who choose to buy now and those that choose to postpone that purchase to a later date are at issue. If an insurance scheme is used to spread the costs of healthcare across the community, then free-riders are a real issue. I think they are probably an overblown issue, but that is beside the point when we are talking about the constitutionality of this mandate.
If you can compel the non-buyer to buy, you can also compel the non-seller to sell.
How do you figure? Not all relationships work both ways. But let's just take the issue you bring up and examine it. Does the constitution give government the power to force someone to sell something? I'll just refer you to the 5th amendment and let you cogitate on the question for awhile.
As such, the original statement stands: the power to regulate is not the power to compel.
It stands as an unsubstantiated claime made by you. The common usage of the word comfortable encompasses the power to compel.
To regulate is to regulate; the only question it implies is: to regulate what?
I can think of many more questions that it implies. Including "how" which would be the most relevant here.
You argue by various means that the non-existence of this what is equivalent to its existence;
No, I argue that regulating includes compelling action.
I disagree and say this is a perversion of language, undertaken for the expedience of coloring a desired outcome in shades of the constitution, whatever that is ultimately worth.
You have said as much, but you have not provided any support for your claim that language is being perverted. Your argument seems to rely, instead, on us taking your idiosyncratic usage of a common word as both proper and exclusive.
Not much, in my estimation, but do what you will.
Constitutionality is not worth much in your opinion?
Can you point to one other instance in which I am personally compelled by force on the federal government's part to engage in trade where I otherwise would not have done so? But that is not a sound argument: there is a first time for everything.
So why bring it up? Are you arguing in bad faith?
My personal objection is not constitutional in nature; it is purely pragmatic.
I have no problem with objection to the mandate. I don't like the approach taken in this healthcare reform strategy.
While I do object to the mandate, the real question is: what other types of 'public good' we might be compelled to in the future,
Not all situations sit on slippery slopes. This one in particular has many pretty unique features.
if such a degenerate reading is allowed to stand now.
Degenerate readying? There you go again.
I imagine someone like Palin or Huckabee (and/or similarly-aligned houses of congress) might have all kinds of neat ways to use an ill-defined power like that.
You act as if there are no mechanism in our system to place a check on these things. Even now this attempt to extend power in this case is meeting with vigorous opposition.
It is where you will end up though, if you insist on forcing words to mean things that they don't mean.
As we have already noted, the distortion of words in this discussion seems primarily to be coming from one 0x90.
If when it said "regulate commerce... among the several states" the constitution was intended to give congress the power to compell citizens of those states into activity, wouldn't "regulate commerce with foreign nations" also mean congress was being granted power to compell people in foreign nations into economic activity? After all, it's not two instances of the word regulate, it can't have two separate meanings can it? So why don't we just pass a law making some dickweed in france buy my health insurance? I'd be into that.
Assuming the commerce clause allow the feds to regulate the insurance industry, how does that translate to a mandate on the citizenry? The mandate is not being applied to the insurance industry, it's targeted at the citzenry. IMO, their rationalization fails on that point.
Assuming the commerce clause allow the feds to regulate the insurance industry, how does that translate to a mandate on the citizenry?
Because commerce includes customers, perhaps. The argument is that if the industry can be compelled to accept all customers, this can be balanced by making everyone participate at some level. It is a tit-for-tat kinda thing. Either the whole scheme fails the test or not, but there is nothing about "regulating" commerce that says "you can only regulate the sellers" as far as I can see.
""Because commerce includes customers, perhaps.""
Mandating the industry is not the same as mandating the citzenry even though some industry mandates affect the citizenry. If the insurance industry is mandated to accept all customers, and they fail to do so they would be fined. Not the customer. To whom the penalty goes is a good way of looking at who the target of the regulation is. The mandate on the citizenry to buy health insurance is not law targeted at the industry.
""""Because commerce includes customers, perhaps.""""
Look at cafe standards on cars. The feds can say a car must get X miles to the gallon. As a byproduct of that, customers buy those cars. That is an example of how fed regulation can affect customer choice. But that is not the same as mandating every citizen by a car that gets X miles per gallon.
The counter example are emissions standards. While (afaik) the Feds don't require citizens to make sure their car is up to specific emissions standards, certainly many local governments do. I don't see that there is an constitutional argument against the Feds standardizing these requirements nationwide. The rules would, most likely, require state and local governments to assure that XXX minimum emission requirements are met for vehicles in their jurisdiction, but it could always be implemented directly.
No?
The mandate is on the car, which is not the same as the government mandating you buy a car with said requirements. Plus if I do not meet the emission standards, what is my penalty? My car might not pass inspection, but will I get fined?
You will if you drive the car without the emissions sticker.
Emissions sticker? I'm not familar with that. Here you get an inpection sticker, your emissions must past to get that. And the last I remember, in Arkansas, they stopped doing inpections stickers. That was a while ago, I don't know if they started again.
""inpection sticker"'
or inspection sticker
""You will if you drive the car without the emissions sticker.""
And if I decide not to drive? I don't have to worry about it right? Because I am not mandated, the car is.
Plus, if I have a car that does not meet that standard, nor passes inspection, can I drive it on my farm?
Since we are being hypothetical about some non-existent Federal emissions law, let's just say, yes, you would be in violation if you were driving it within the United States. As for it being "the car" that is regulated...I am not sure that is true. In most cases the law states something along the lines that the "driver" is compelled to assure that their vehicle has passed an emissions check. The punishment for the driver usually takes two forms: a fine and/or loss of use of the vehicle. You are being compelled to get it fixed or to buy a new car if you want to continue to drive.
""Since we are being hypothetical about some non-existent Federal emissions law,""
I thought you were talking real emissions law. Then you don't really have real counter example.
""if you want to continue to drive""
And if I don't, what happens? Will I be fined to cover the cost of others who do?
Trickyvic,
I thought I was pretty clear about the hypothetical nature of this. Do you think a Federal emissions law would be unconstitutional if implemented along the lines of existing local/state level emissions laws?
And if I don't, what happens? Will I be fined to cover the cost of others who do?
It depends. Do you consider bus fare a fine (;
My hypothetical Supreme Court shoots it down.
Kidding aside, I don't know. Polution in and of it's self can affect a wide area over several states. So, I would think there is a federal issue. SCOTUS would probably up hold it. But I think there's a real possiblity that SCOTUS will uphold Obamacare dispite my opinion.
Also I am allowed not to participate since taking the bus isn't a fine, which is a key, not trivial difference. Pay if you do, pay if you don't. And pay twice if you pay out of pocket for your health care. My health care doesn't cross state lines, but I have a feeling Raich made that moot.
And of course bus fare isn't a fine if I voluntarily take the bus. But you knew that already.
For the feds to have some juristdiction, I think there needs to be a federal issue, else it be left to the states. A person's health care is not, nor should it ever be, a federal issue, execpt when that person relies on the feds for coverage. Health care and health insurance are two different things. If the feds have the ability to regulate the insurance industry, that should only affect those who decided to purchase insurance.
If government can say you must do X to keep the cost of Y down, Then government can start mandating other things to keep the cost down. Right? Once it has the authority it will not only exercise that authority but seek to expand that authority. Of course that has little to do with the Constitutionality of said law.
If government can say you must do X to keep the cost of Y down, Then government can start mandating other things to keep the cost down. Right?
A good point, although I wonder if that is an accurate characterization of this mandate. While it is technically a mandate to purchase ("must do X") and its goal is to "keep the cost of Y" down, it seems like the law is aimed at preventing people from doing Z, which raises the cost for those that voluntarily did X. Z, of course, is making a bet that they will stay healthy and not need insurance. The mandate is aimed a solving the problem Z creates. Of course, as people around here know, there is a good argument to say that Z only adds a small amount to the cost of healthcare, while the structure of the insurance industry which shields consumers from seeing the true costs of their healthcare decisions(particularly distortions caused by the way health benefits are taxed) adds much greater costs in the long run. The need for structural reforms in the system seemed pretty obvious to me. The methods that the fix used seem almost exactly backwards, to me. But I don't see that they are wrong, because they are unconstitutional. And I don't think they are unconstitutional just because they are the wrong approach.
so let me get this straight,
the Gub'mint can mandate that i get their health insurance on the chance i might need health care...
but, the Gub'mint doesn't mandate that i get life insurance even though i surely will die?
please!
follow the money and don't be daft...
this is not about empathy and spreading costs...
did Owebama or did he not meet with all the major insurance companies before all this shit started...
Owebama "Now first I get everyone to buy your insurance, then you cut the checks to the DNC. Got it!"winking and nudging. "Now that you see how it all works I don't have to say 'let me be clear'. By the way, what do you think of the new carpeting?"
the Gub'mint can mandate that i get their health insurance on the chance i might need health care...
but, the Gub'mint doesn't mandate that i get life insurance even though i surely will die?
Oh my that is some tortured logic. Let's just say that the cost of your death is not much of a burden, but the cost of keeping you alive obviously is.
no, i'm using your logic...
expand your mind and think not just of death but my estate as well...
do you not have the same empathy towards my family if i was in debt out the wazoo...
how could you want them to be burdened with that?
Don't worry. I have plenty of sympathy for your family.
aww, thanks, but i'm not concerned about your sympathy.
how did my "tortured logic" taste this time...
doesn't an estate with huge charge balances and an a house underwater with a reverse mortgage affect "commerce"?
Social Security will give you your $200 burial benefit. What's your complaint? 😉
""While it is technically a mandate to purchase ("must do X") and its goal is to "keep the cost of Y" down, it seems like the law is aimed at preventing people from doing Z, which raises the cost for those that voluntarily did X. Z, of course, is making a bet that they will stay healthy and not need insurance. ""
And people ignore Z (better health), the government will have the authority to change Z for them since Z can drive up the cost. And it's not necessarily a small cost. Hypertension and Diabetes control for example. Will the gov force you to take Lipitor or change your diet? Constitution aside, government should never have that much control over the citizenry.
no buying no selling, no commerce
that is MY choice, CHOICE, keep your hands off my CHOICE!
Some people have mentioned compelling people to work, the Soviet constitution contained all kind of free goodies for the citizens (one obviously being free health). Because all these things were supposedly free, there had to be a way to pay for them, which led to the duty clauses (similar now to what the US government is moving toward). These duties basically said "we will give you all these wonderful things, but we will also force you to pay for then". This where that funny Soviet joke comes from: "The government pretends to pay us and we pretend to work".
The main difference I see here is that the law is putting requirements on private citizens to purchase something from some other private citizen (of their choice). So, A is requiring B to buy from C, or D, or E, or F. It isn't as circular as the Soviet system whereby the party offering the service was also the one compelling you to buy it: A requiring B to buy from A.
Actually, requiring a longer chain before getting back to A would make it a more accurate approximation of a circle.
Actually it is circular, what you think people who do not want to buy will buy from ? a private company or the discounted government option ? Also the claim this is "of their choice", forcing people to buy something generally does not count as choice even as they are presented an A,B,C product to pick from.
It would be called a "forced choice" in a science experiment, but it is still a "choice."
Seems like a pointless article. Chapman didn't add anything to either side of the argument. He just reports that this one guy happens to be on a side you wouldn't expect based on a position the guy held 30 years ago... So what?
The Constitution is a worthless piece of garbage. Just kill anyone who tries to forcibly fine you for not having insurance.
"In 1905, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled that the state of Massachusetts could fine anyone who refused to get a smallpox vaccination?a far more intrusive and intimate command than buying insurance."
Wait... so since the states have the police power to regulate behavior pertaining to public health, this necessarily means that the general government also has this same power? Is that what they're teaching at Harvard these days?
RC, you're a lawyer, so I'll ask you: when you're advising a client, do you base your advice on what you think the law says and how you think it should be interpreted, or do you base it on how courts have actually interpreted the law in question?
I tell them what the statute/regulation says, how I think it applies to them, any agency or court gloss on it (we usually pause at this point in gobsmacked amazement), and the risks of various courses of action.
Of course, Constitutional interpretation is a completely different game.
Wait... so since the states have the police power to regulate behavior pertaining to public health, this necessarily means that the general government also has this same power? Is that what they're teaching at Harvard these days?
Don't be ridiculous. What they're teaching at Harvard these days is that since the states have the police power to regulate behavior pertaining to public health, this necessarily means that the federal government has a completely unrelated plenary power to control and direct all economic activity and inactivity.
I call for a constitutional amendment restricting the commerce clause to its very narrowest meaning, and wording it so clearly that even statist liskspittles like Charlie Fried and Barry Obama can understand it.
Please reply with your version of the text of such an amendment. Best entry wins a no-prize.
Congress shall make no law respecting commerce. (and repeal 16 while we're at it)
Yeah, the shall make no law verbage did wonders with free speech.
When the 1st amendment was read and the words Congress shall make no law reverberated in the halls, Congressmen looked around wondering who the person was talking to?
"The following is hereby affirmed wholly and unequivocally by amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America:
i) that Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the Constitution of the United States of America grants Congress the definitively minuscule and limited power to make regular the commerce between the governments of the various states exclusively, and nothing else whatsoever; Congress shall make no law impeding upon, regulating in any manner whatsoever, or influencing or dictating any aspect whatsoever of, the intrastate and interstate commerce in which private entities, individuals, and all other bodies engage,
ii) that any law, edict, executive order, ruling, or any other forms of enforceable doctrine or policy, of any governmental organ conflicting with any part of the Constitution of the United States of America shall be, without exception, absolutely null and void,
iii) that the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America explicitly and uncompromisingly imposes upon the governments of the United States, the various states of the Republic, and any other political divisions that may ever exist under the aforestated, a prohibition upon the establishment of laws, edicts, executive orders, rulings, or any other forms of enforceable doctrine or policy, restricting in any way, or to any degree, whatsoever the ownership or bearing of arms, or any aspects thereof,
iv) that agents and actors of a governmental organ within the United States of America, at all levels of governance, that, in their official capacities as the aforementioned, advocate the adoption of laws, edicts, executive orders, rulings, or any other forms of enforceable doctrine and policy which violate any part of the Constitution of the United States of America shall be subject to immediate dismissal from office, to be effected by whichever means and procedures considered most prudent by the legislatures, courts, and executives of a state or territory of the Republic. This pertains directly to legislators, jurors, executives, and all other members of government who possess the power to enact policy or law,
v) and that the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits absolutely the government of the United States from assuming any powers whatsoever which are not expressly delegated to it by the Constitution.
By this amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, it is declared and established:
vi) that the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America is hereby repealed, and made entirely and completely null and void,
vii) that the Seventeenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America is hereby repealed, and made entirely and completely null and void."
How's that?
Most excellent my good man! How do you think the denizens of HuffPo and the Daily Kos will react to these changes?
*Aneurysm* and mass suicide would be my guess. And I'm not kidding here. >_
Your "iv" seems vague and unenforceable. It could be used even when someone made a mistake in good faith and gives an inordinate amount of power to the courts (who would arbitrate any claim for dismissal).
No?
Yeah, thanks. Going to edit that. Will post update later. 😛
Watching this guy fried now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOTLt9KtUG8
He actually says that it would be constitutional for the government to operate health care, and that the mandate to purchase insurance is a result of trying to make sure that private businesses run it.
It seems that there's only one way for sure to stop all this:
Pass a Constitutional Amendment to narrowly define the terms "commerce" and "interstate."
Yeah, I'm sure that'll get 2/3 majorities in both houses.
Doesn't need it, that's only for the congress to recommend amendments. The states may direct the congress to convene a convention for the purpose of amending the constitution, and the congress may only say "How high?".
Now whether or not the requisite number of states would ratify such an amendment is another question.
Is Chapman DEFENDING Fried's position? God-awful immorality and unreason. Repeal it, and repeal it before the Republic loses all its credibility and can no longer claim to be a nation of moral and free people.
This is just fucking awful.
Here's my draft for a constitutional amendment; tell me what you think:
"The following is hereby affirmed wholly and unequivocally by amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America:
i) that Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the Constitution of the United States of America grants Congress the definitively minuscule and limited power to make regular the commerce between the governments of the various states exclusively, and nothing else whatsoever; Congress shall make no law impeding upon, regulating in any manner whatsoever, or influencing or dictating any aspect whatsoever of, the intrastate and interstate commerce in which private entities, individuals, and all other bodies engage,
ii) that any law, edict, executive order, ruling, or any other forms of enforceable doctrine or policy, of any governmental organ conflicting with any part of the Constitution of the United States of America shall be, without exception, absolutely null and void,
iii) that the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America explicitly and uncompromisingly imposes upon the governments of the United States, the various states of the Republic, and any other political divisions that may ever exist under the aforestated, a prohibition upon the establishment of laws, edicts, executive orders, rulings, or any other forms of enforceable doctrine or policy, restricting in any way, or to any degree, whatsoever the ownership or bearing of arms, or any aspects thereof,
iv) that agents and actors of a governmental organ within the United States of America, at all levels of governance, that, in their official capacities as the aforementioned, advocate the adoption of laws, edicts, executive orders, rulings, or any other forms of enforceable doctrine and policy which violate any part of the Constitution of the United States of America shall be subject to immediate dismissal from office, to be effected by whichever means and procedures considered most prudent by the legislatures, courts, and executives of a state or territory of the Republic. This pertains directly to legislators, jurors, executives, and all other members of government who possess the power to enact policy or law,
v) and that the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits absolutely the government of the United States from assuming any powers whatsoever which are not expressly delegated to it by the Constitution.
By this amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, it is declared and established:
vi) that the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America is hereby repealed, and made entirely and completely null and void,
vii) that the Seventeenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America is hereby repealed, and made entirely and completely null and void."
Added this -
"vi) and that the rights of the people, including those which are specifically enumerated within the Bill of Rights of the Constitution of the United States of America, are natural and inalienable, that such rights have never depended or relied upon, nor will they ever depend or rely upon, the existence or policy of governments, and that such rights are not subject to alteration or suspension of any sort, under any circumstances, at any time, by any individual or authority."
Of course, even if amended, it would be ignored and few would care. Even SCOTUS doesn't understand the meaning of "infringed" in the 2nd amendment.
What is boils down to is that the power to tell you exactly what to do, think, spend, smoke, drink, screw, and anything else is just as near and dear to Republicans and Democrats alike.
Wow. What a pitifully weak argument.
It's so nice when our rulers see no limit to their duly delegated power.
They can regulate any action related to commerce, and any action not related to commerce.
They can regulate any action.
regulate this!
Appears the Constitution is becoming irrelevant, simply something to be manipulated by whoever is in power and with that said, there better not be a conservative supreme court justice go down or Obuckethead will serve out his full term as king...
"A Conservative Defense of ObamaCare"?!??!
Mr. Fried may once have been Ronald Reagan's solicitor general, but no one "who made an unexpected endorsement of Obama in 2008" is a conservative.
""but no one "who made an unexpected endorsement of Obama in 2008" is a conservative.""
I guess that depends on your opinion of Bush jr. Obama is Bush jr II.
The point is that the only certainty to kill Obamacare is legislative, and the Republican's feet must be held to the fire.
Obviously, a faculty position at Harvard Law is dangerous to one's cognitive function. Mr. Fried has indeed fried his brain. His "reasoning", if that is what you call it, suggests that once the federal government has decided it can order you to purchase health insurance because doing so or failing to do so affects the financial and economic status of everyone, then the government must be able to force you to pursue beneficial health behavior and can penalize you for not doing so. Do you smoke? The government can fine or imprison you for such a vile offense (waivers for Presidents and House Speakers who smoke). Are you overweight? The government can fine you or sentence you to a "re-education camp" regarding diet and exercise, and force you to work (slave labor) to shed the excess avoir du pois, right? Take drugs? Fines and penalties and prison sentences all around. Didn't get your colonoscopy? Go directly to the surgicenter and drink the gawd-awful prep on the spot and bend over. No anesthesia for you! Didn't make it to the exercise club for a month. Forced 50 mile marches. Put some ice on those joints and stress fractures! Didn't do your obligatory marathon this year? Now you'll have to do 2 this year! Driving to work? No way. Get on your bike. Want to eat at your favorite restaurant? You'll have to weigh in and prove you've lost those excess pounds before you are allowed in the door. Also, you will have to show your certificate of appropriate poundage before you're allowed to pay for that Haagen Daaz at the grocery store!
Your name is Fried? Not allowed. You have to change it to baked, sauteed, grilled, roasted or broiled!
Judges V in son, Hud. son
found ppaca , 'o. bamo care UNconsti-
tutional.."