Drug War

Six Drug Czars, and Between Them They Can't Muster a Decent Argument for Marijuana Prohibition

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"Our opposition to legalizing marijuana is grounded not in ideology but in facts and experience," say drug czar Gil Kerlikowske and his five predecessors in a Los Angeles Times op-ed piece that urges Californians to vote against Proposition 19. They argue that voters should listen to them because they are "experts in the field of drug policy, policing, prevention, education and treatment." If this is the best case the experts can make against marijuana legalization, they had better call in the amateurs.

Kerlikowske et al. say it's not true that "legalizing and taxing marijuana would generate much-needed revenue," because everyone will grow his own, thereby avoiding sales and excise taxes. Although "people don't typically grow their own tobacco or distill their own spirits," they say, marijuana is different because it is "easy and cheap to cultivate, indoors or out." If growing pot were as easy as the Six Drug Czars imply, there would not be much of a market for all the books and periodicals that explain how to do it properly. In any case, one could also say that tomatoes are "easy and cheap" to grow, or that beer is "easy and cheap" to brew. I've done both, but I still buy tomatoes and beer in  stores. The supply is more reliable and varied, and it's a lot easier. Accounting for the time and effort required to grow tomatoes and brew beer, buying them in the store is cheaper too, even though I have to pay taxes on them.

Kerlikowske et al. also say it's not true that "legalization would allow law enforcement to focus on other crimes." They know it's not true because "an overwhelming majority of police professionals does not support legalizing marijuana." And anyway, "law enforcement officers do not currently focus much effort on arresting adults whose only crime is possessing small amounts of marijuana." The opinions of "police professionals"—especially the ones they express in conversations with the director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy—do not necessarily prove that enforcing marijuana prohibition, which goes far beyond nabbing pot smokers, is a sensible use of law enforcement resources. Instead of making that case, the Six Drug Czars imply that enforcing marijuana prohibition does not require any resources to speak of. Well, they're the experts.

Having disposed of what they take to be the two main arguments for Prop. 19, Kerlikowske et al. offer one against it: Increased consumption of marijuana will lead to "more accidents and fatalities involving drivers under its influence." They cite "a nationally representative roadside survey by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration" that found "8% of nighttime weekend drivers tested positive for marijuana." They also cite "a 2004 meta-analysis published in the journal Drug and Alcohol Review" that found "between 4% and 14% of drivers who sustained injuries or died in traffic accidents tested positive for delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol." Since traces of THC can be detected long after its effects have worn off, these studies do not even show that the drivers were impaired by marijuana, let alone that it caused any accidents. While experiments indicate that marijuana impairs driving ability to some extent, the effects are not nearly as dramatic as those associated with alcohol. So to the extent that legal marijuana use displaces drinking, Proposition 19 might actually lead to a net reduction in traffic injuries and fatalities.

[Thanks to Kroneborge for the tip.]

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  1. Who knew that it would only take six drug czars to spew enough bullshit to drown Cuba?

    1. This is a Self-Preservation Society, Na na nana.

    2. your welcome

      Also, here is my comments I posted to LAT. I think we covered most of the same points !)

      First before I point out the many logical inconsistencies in your arguments let’s address the most important reason why marijuana should be legalized. That reason is freedom of choice. It’s none of the government’s and it’s none of YOUR business if I choose to smoke marijuana. Stop trying to dictate my life, and thinking that you know what’s best for me. Stop the nanny state.

      1. In Amsterdam, they have the coffee shops, but they don’t have a legal method of production. With full legalization, you remove the rest of the detrimental effects of prohibition. Note there is no alcohol related organized crime component with beer or wine. Why, CAUSE IT’S LEGAL. Haven’t you studied your history at all? Do you really not understand that prohibition causes crime? When ending alcohol prohibition we went from Al Capone to Coors and Miller. Note the lack of dead bodies now.

      2. So some people smoke and drive, like some people drink and drive. Both are bad, neither has any bearing on whether marijuana should be legalized, or whether alcohol should remain legal. Stop trying to take away freedom because of a couple bad actors.

      3. Why do people pay for vegetables when they can grow their own at home? Because it’s convenient. The same will happen with marijuana. Some will grow their own, many will go to the store. Just like most users right now don’t grow their own. Even though that’s much cheaper than paying someone else to do it.

      4. You seem to be discounting the costs of locking people up for choosing to get high. Maybe that’s because police and prison unions don’t want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg. We’ve wasted hundreds of billions of dollars since we started this failed War on Drugs, and yet drug use remains essentially unchanged. We have managed to ruin a bunch of lives though by throwing young kids into prison.

      Your opposition to drug legalization is grounded in nothing but worn out old lies that prohibition works. The same lies that failed with alcohol prohibition, and that have failed with drug prohibition. You haven’t stop drug use, but instead made society less safe. Gangs have sprung up fueled by the high drug profits. OVER 28,000 dead in the last couple of years in Mexico (more than in Iraq) because of our failed drug war. In fact it’s quite clear if anyone is smoking something, it YOU, who would continue the same disastrous policies.

      1. Stop trying to take away freedom because of a couple bad actors.

        Or, you know, only take away the freedoms of the bad actors, because of their bad acts.

        That would be too much like real-work for cops though, I guess.

        1. The thing that really cracks me up, is there are like 10,000 untested rape kits in LA county. Yet they still have time to worry about people getting high.

      2. PURSUIT OH HIPPIENESS

        is an inalienable constitutional riiiiight

      3. Everyone knows drugs are only acceptable in a synthetic, pill form. Marinol anyone? Funny how some MD’s will recommend the use of MJ over Marinol. I have some experience in this as my Uncle was dying from Pancreatic Cancer and his doctor recommended the use of MJ– He actually gestured smoking a joint (NO JOKE!) This was less than a year ago.

        Better yet, about 30 years ago, before I was born my Mother had Cancer of the Uterus and the Doctor recommended, you guessed it– Marijuana. Because my mother denied surgery and would only take double treatments of Chemotherapy. She turned down the MJ of course because she was about 21 and was afraid her Mother would flip. MJ is definitely not a cure-all for multiple ailments, but definitely is a safer alternative than most of the dangerous drugs on the market that are heavily exploited by the youth of today.

        1. Plus, if it weren’t for Marijuana… We wouldn’t have Emoticons and Silly Bandz!

  2. If growing pot were as easy as the Six Drug Czars imply, there would not be much of a market for all the books and periodicals that explain how to do it properly. In any case, one could also say that tomatoes are “easy and cheap” to grow, or that beer is “easy and cheap” to brew. I’ve done both, but I still buy tomatoes and beer in stores.

    Right. What they fail to account for is that most people are lazy and impatient. They want their buzz on and they want it NOW. Who wants to go buy dirt, pots, seeds, fertilizer, etc., set all that stuff up, and then wait for weeks and weeks for the stuff to grow – all the while having to water and tend the plants?

    1. What? No grow light???

      1. Not to mention all that confusion over what are the right nutes, and when to apply them. It’s enough to make you go on a shooting rampage. So, you see, they’re doing it for teh children, so back off, man!

      2. I did say “, etc.”

        I submit that covers your grow light, nutes, & c., etc., and so forth, i.e., e.g., PDQ, ASAP.

    2. Yeah, the thing is that cannabis doesn’t naturally grow into this beautiful, resinous, seedless, pungent creation you see on the High Times centerfold. That shit takes major investment in equipment, lots of trial and error, and hard work and attention to detail every single day.

    3. unless you live on a sub-tropical isle where you can grow your own in the backyard year roun

      clones make the process much easier too

    4. “Who wants to go buy dirt, pots, seeds, fertilizer, etc., set all that stuff up, and then wait for weeks and weeks for the stuff to grow – all the while having to water and tend the plants?”

      uhhh I do?

      I already do it with numerous plants, tomatoes, many flowers, grapes, and the list goes on.
      Of course that does not mean that i do not also end up buying alot of those same things form the store.
      I grow tomatoes because I can and because i like to and a garden fresh mater with some sea salt on it is 100 times better than what I get at the store, but I still buy most of them at the store!
      The garden is a hobby, and a nice reward when I harvest it all, but its not my main source of those things.
      Even if I never bought any at teh store and only grew my own, I still spend a ton of cash on nutrients and pesticides and other supplies.
      Even when speaking on veggies and decorative plants most of my supply comes from local greenhouses and grocery stores. But Id love to have a 6 foot tall marijuana plant in the garden between each tomato plant.
      Id love to have a big hemp screen across the back of my yard to screen out the stuff thats currently covered by bamboo.
      I get your point, just wanted to ad that even though I grow my own stuff, I still buy a good 80% of it from the store and pay taxes on it.

  3. “Between 4% and 14%”

    Now that sounds like a reliable study!

    1. And sounds like exactly the sort of range one might expect for positives just picking people off on a street corner, or in schools, or in any workplace anywhere — or, yes, “drivers who sustained injuries or died in traffic accidents.”

      1. Exactly; it’s very consistent with past-month marijuana use statistics.

        1. SEE! EVERYONE WHO SMOKES DOES SO WHILE DRIVING! WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE, ZOMG1111!ONEONEONE

          1. (wow, making completely insane conclusions that contradict the evidence is more fun than i thought.)

            1. Uh-oh, are you gearing up for a run at a public office?

    2. Funny, I was thinking the same thing

  4. I homebrew and still buy beer.

    1. me too, but that’s only because the wife won’t let me turn the nursery into a brewery. There’s pleny of room for the baby. Silly women.

      1. Me three because while I make a killer ale, I also like a crispy lager from time to time.

        1. Me four because I’m lazy and impatient.

          1. I’m too drunk to make my own beer. So I’ll go to the store and buy some, in my two cars, to the two stores. With my friend, the elephant, oh pardon me. I just threw up all over myself. If it was crack it would be an OD, but since its just beer I’m fine. My that gutter looks like a great place to take a nap, Snooki’s looking pretty tap-tap-tappable on the M-television right now.

            But weed? Good thing its illegal because, well, shit, I’d go crazy on that.

  5. “legal” pot still fails a drug test for a job the dopers will burden Californias already bloated welfare system

    1. We don’t need to pass it to see what is in it! The proposition is online. http://yeson19.com/node/6

    2. juanita wrote:
      “legal” pot still fails a drug test for a job the dopers will burden Californias already bloated welfare system

      Then drug test people on welfare. Next talking point por favor.

    3. Seems to me that if its legal, we can do away with the drug testing. Least wise the marijuana part of that test.
      IF its legal, no reason to punish those that use it.
      A simple saliva test can detect marijuana use thats been with in the past hour or so. I agree you can not drive on it and can not go to work on it. If we can test to prove recent use while driving or working, it seems to me that much like booze, what you do on your time off of work and what you do when not driving, is your own damn business.

  6. Also, not all pot is created equal. The stuff you would grow in your back yard is nothing like the stuff that they grow hydroponically. If it were legal, companies would use horticulturists to develop strains of it that they could patent and that would grow under conditions not easily replicated in your basement.

    Since the marijuana trade has been underground so long, I suspect that people would trade it under ground and avoid the tax more than you think, at least at first. But gradually that culture would die out and new people who had only known legalization grew up.

    1. True, it’s a lot easier to do it succesfully wrong, than to get it really, really right.

    2. There are certainly a few water boys out there who know what they’re doing and can get great yields without sacrificing flavor and quality, but they’re few and far between.

      It’s getting easier, thanks to better dissemination of knowledge, but the gap still exists.

      use horticulturists to develop strains

      Trust me, that’s been going on for longer than either of us have been around for. Hell, they were already doing that 100 years ago when cannabis was a common ingredient in patent medicines.

      1. Yeah, in “The Botany of Desire”, Michael Pollan called cannabis growers the greatest botanists of our generation. Say what you will about Pollan, but I think he’s right about that.

        1. Jefferson was just a piker, only culling the males.

        2. growing grade A cannabis in your backyard isn’t difficult. clones organic

          most country stoners love growing herb. there are many people in this category and more would follow.

          legalizing and leaving us alone would reduce the price of an oz to under $100 an oz.

          1. That depends on what you call ‘grade A’.

            I certainly agree that organic, outdoor grown weed is the way to go for most people. However, as Ed Rosenthal mentions in his latest *book(the one that is the textbook for Oaksterdam), many dispensaries reject outdoor grown as being harsh. This may result from temperature fluctuations close to harvest.

            Also, certain strains just can’t be grown outside unless you’re close enough to the equator. You can fake it inside, but it’s not the same. If you grow it outside, you won’t have a long enough growing season to properly finish.

            * This book has more spelling and grammatical errors than Sarah Palin’s 11th grade English report.

            1. You can fake it inside, but it’s not the same.

              Give it time. People were saying the same thing about keeping corals in the home.

              Heh heh, REEF tanks, heh.

            2. depends on what – you – think grade A is.

              i know what grade A is.

              there’s nothing like good outdoor organic — under regulated conditions.

              so maybe you might have to import some from hawaii.

              this is not to say that indoor is bad. some of it is excellent.

          2. legalizing and leaving us alone would reduce the price of an oz to under $100 an oz.

            Very affordable for an unemployed LEO.

          3. Where in the world are you getting your prices from? An ounce of mid-grade can easily be under $80 where I’m from. $5 a gram is typical, and price decreases with increasing order size.

            1. let’s say primo da kine is $400 an oz.

            2. I’ve never bought an ounce for less than $250, and $350-400 is typical. Fuck mids, that shit’s only good for headaches.

              1. You obviously need a better, less greedy source. I can get an ounce of primo buds right now for $100 that’ll knock your friggin’ socks off and send you to La-La Land for hours.

          4. Or even less. Sounds like a pretty good economic plan to me. We would all love to save more money than we do now. Of course, the police departments would lose their ability to seize the private property drug offenders and they’re fighting hard to keep that cash cow agrazing.

    3. “The stuff you would grow in your back yard is nothing like the stuff that they grow hydroponically.”

      That’s not true. If you have a good strain it’s just as good to grow outdoors. Producers don’t grow outdoors because one the cops can see it and two you can’t grow year round.

      1. It’s also harder to control for pollination problems outdoors, especially in areas like the midwest with a lot of wild ditchweed. Since it just takes one male plant to seed an entire plot of females, this can be a significant problem for outdoor growers.

        But you’re right, the fact that bud was grown outdoors does not necessarily mean it is of lower quality. In fact, some of the best stuff I’ve ever smoked has been outdoor.

        1. the pollination problem can be dealt wth in the same manner that commercial pepper growers manage it, hoop tunnels with pollen filter material over it.

          1. Thats so lowtech! I want electrostatic precipitators around my property.

        2. clones are guaranteed 100% female.

    4. Actually, you couldn’t patent strains unless they were (“hard”) genetically modified. But you can’t patent the results of selective breeding as far as I know

  7. “They also cite “a 2004 meta-analysis published in the journal Drug and Alcohol Review” that found “between 4% and 14% of drivers who sustained injuries or died in traffic accidents tested positive for delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol.”

    THC stays in a person’s system for anywhere from two weeks to two months depending on their metabolism. So that means that between 4% and 14% of the sample have used marijuana sometime in the two to eight weeks prior to the accident. That is a little bit different than what these clowns imply.

    1. “”That is a little bit different than what these clowns imply.””

      John, you’re pissing on their clown parade.

    2. I also don;t see that the study cited don;t specifically eliminate those fatalities with multiple intoxicants, i.e, drunk and stoned. IIRC, if you eliminate the combo situations, the pure THC fatalities actually gets to below 4% – and lower if you eliminate the poor schmucks that happened to get slammed by a drunk.

      1. and lower if you eliminate the poor schmucks that happened to get slammed by a drunk.

        But but but, they would’ve been able to avoid the drunk driver if they hadn’t been stoned!

        1. Since it is illegal, they can’t patent any of their creations. If and when it does become legal, I bet a lot of people get ripped off by not filing patents quick enough.

        2. How easily can you duck a bullet fired at your head from behind? I’m betting the answer is not very well.

    3. dea and all those people are lying thugs who spew misery

  8. “between 4% and 14% of drivers who sustained injuries or died in traffic accidents tested positive for delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol.”

    Sounds about the same as the percentage of people overall who have used the chronic in the last month (or whatever length of time which would still result in a positive test). Pretty much results in the conclusion the mj may not affect the rate of traffic accidents.

    1. +1, yeah that was my thought too.

  9. Gil Kerlikowske, not just Seattle’s problem anymore.

    1. Ron Sims, not just Seattle’s problem anymore….

      1. That is the trifecta of vomit. Ron Sims is Deputy Secretary of HUD? BARF 1. There is a White House blog? BARF 2. This particular blog post is entitled A Summer of Recovery? BARF 3.

  10. Courtney Love, not just Seattle’s problem anymore.

    1. but still a whore.

      1. At some point doesn’t she become all whored out?

    2. We need another problem out of Seattle like Kurt Cobain needs another hole in the head.

      1. You guys were getting warmed up for Greg Nickels, but he overplayed his hand.

  11. Marijuana is the beachhead for an over all repeal to prohibition. And the prohibitionists know it. They know marijuana is no worse than alcohol. They also know that if it became legal none of their horror stories would come true. And once that happened people would justifiably wonder why any of this stuff is not legal.

    1. It sho’ don’ hep mah pistol marksmanship

      1. I hole the dang thing sideways

      2. That is cocaine that helps your marksmanship you stupid darkie.

      3. Oh, I get it, it’s funny because something about black people.

        1. Racist.

        2. No, its funny because a post just yesterday or the day before had a quote of an official claiming that cocaine improved pistol marksmanship, while at the same time espousing the notion that mostly black people use cocaine.

          THATS the joke, which you just forced me to kill.

          1. Oh.

            Well. If you need anyone to silence the laughter again, I’ll be over here.

            1. Bullets – my only weakness! How did you know?

      4. tell that to the nba

    2. I disagree. Even if we get a modicum of prohibition repeal on the marijuana front (which arguably we have in specific locales), the wider prohibition of so-called hard drugs — heroin, meth, cocaine etc– won’t end. It simply won’t.

      If we can’t get a bunch of ex-dope smoking hippies from the 60’s– you know, the people running the country now– to simply drop marijuana prohibition, full stop, then whatever light there is at the end of the tunnel is very, very dim.

      1. But if you get marijuana prohibition to end, everything changes. That is the point.

        1. It won’t, that is the point.

          Not everything is a slippery slope. There is no domino line of prohibition.

          1. Why not? People have demonized marijuana for decades. If they legalize it and have to admit that they were lying about that, how much credibility do they have when they demonize other drugs?

            1. how much credibility do they have when they demonize other drugs?

              30-50 years worth, at least.

              1. “how much credibility do they have when they demonize other drugs?

                30-50 years worth, at least.

                Sadly true I’m sure.

              2. That may be true, but we’re not talking about the other drugs and those SHOULD remain illegal. Cannabis, on the other hand, has successfully passed all of the societal ‘litmus tests’ and should be legalized.

            2. Why not? People have demonized marijuana for decades.

              Because “everything” didn’t change when we ended Alcohol prohibition. That’s why.

              Overall, prohibition has increased in this country, not decreased. And furthermore, that prohibition now extends to common everyday substances, such as cigarette smoke, trans fats etc. While those prohibitions aren’t logisitically the same as marijuana or heroin or cocain prohibitions, they come from the same mind set.

              Marijuana prohibition will exist in a vacuum. If its prohibition is relaxed (which I argue is about as far as it’ll ever get vis a vis medicalizing it) that will not suddenly open flood gates and extend to every other currently illegal substance.

              In fact, the only reason Medicalizing Marijuana has been the only venue where marijuana prohibition has been relaxed at all is because when we “medicalize” it, we still have it under an umbrella of a “controlled substance.”

              Get it?

              1. You think that just because something is one way it will continue that way forever. You are wrong about that. Everything flows. We have only been doing real prohibition for about 80 years. That is nothing in human terms. Sixty years ago, people went to jail for being homosexuals. And all that changed literally in a decade or two. Once things start to flow against prohibition, it won’t stop and it will happen a lot quicker than you think.

                1. And you think just because something goes another way, it will continue to go that way exponentially like it’s on autopilot.

                  You failed to respond to my primary counterpoint: Why didn’t ratification of the 21st amendment (repeal of prohibition) open the so-called flood gates to a widespread deconstruction of prohibition in general? Hmmmmmmm?

                  It’s because politically, we are quite capable of compartmentalizing controlled substances.

                  Once things start to flow against prohibition, it won’t stop and it will happen a lot quicker than you think.

                  Sorry, dude, I thought it would happen a lot quicker 25 years ago. But I’ll tell ya what, since I also support the repeal of prohibition, I’ll buy you a bottle of scotch when Marijuana is legalized, full stop.

                  1. “Why didn’t ratification of the 21st amendment (repeal of prohibition) open the so-called flood gates to a widespread deconstruction of prohibition in general”

                    Because alcohol was never considered a drug. And it was always part of the mainstream of American life. The debate over alcohol was and always has been separate from the debate over drugs.

                    Marijuana unlike alcohol is a drug and it is lumped in with other drugs. That is why legalizing it is such a bad precedent.

                    1. I think this one’s still up for grabs. I’d think that, to John’s point, a repeal of marijuana prohibition at the very least might get people to start questioning the criminal justice approach. It wouldn’t necessarily result in a legal market for hard drugs, but could certainly open people up to the fact that there are better ways of dealing with “drugs” that don’t involve locking people up all day every day.

                    2. Actually, if memory/history serves me right, AFTER they ended alcohol prohibiton is when they started drug prohibtion.

                    3. AFTER they ended alcohol prohibiton is when they started drug prohibtion.

                      Boom! Kroneborge gets the cookie!

                    4. Actually, if memory/history serves me right, AFTER they ended alcohol prohibiton is when they started drug prohibtion.

                      Umm, the Harrison Narcotics Tax Act, anyone? Way back in the bad old days of 1914.

                    5. There were still a lot of stubstances which were legal after 1914. Drug prohibition didn’t go into real high gear until after the repeal of the 18th amendment. But your point is taken.

                    6. twuz the nigra jazz musicians fondling white ladies and them mexicanos

                    7. Because alcohol was never considered a drug. And it was always part of the mainstream of American life. The debate over alcohol was and always has been separate from the debate over drugs.

                      So what you’re saying, John, is that politically, we’re able to compartmentalize the debate on specific substances, and therefore the relaxing of prohibition isn’t a slippery slope.

                      I’m so glad we’re back in agreement.

                    8. and therefore the relaxing of prohibition isn’t a slippery slope.

                      should read “the relaxing of prohibition on a specific substance…”

                      Oh and:

                      Marijuana unlike alcohol is a drug and it is lumped in with other drugs.

                      Cigarettes are now regulated by the FDA. That’s the “food and drug administration”. Oh yeah, prohibition’s DONE when Marijuana goes…

                    9. Cigarettes are not illegal are they? This despite the efforts of people who wanted to ban them. And no one talks about them the same way they do marijuana or cocaine. So that is a stupid analogy.

                    10. Cigarettes are not illegal are they?

                      Don’t have to be. Did you even read my post above? There’s a prohibition mindset. A desire within our government to “control substances you put into your body”. Until that mindset changes– and there’s no evidence it’s going to and all the evidence in the world the mindset is becoming more entrenched– overall prohibition will never happen.

                    11. overall prohibition will never happen.

                      Should read “overall prohibition will never end”.

                    12. We compartmentalize, but marijuana is in the same compartment as other drugs. You are not just going to be able to legalize it and then pretend that it is now different from other drugs when you have decades worth of propaganda that has said otherwise.

                    13. We compartmentalize, but marijuana is in the same compartment as other drugs.

                      The fuck? You take that attitude, you’ll never get a repeal of Marijuana prohibition. Marijuana is in no way the same as other drugs. Not even close.

                    14. In most people’s mind it is. And when they realize it is not some evil weed, the entire edifice behind prohibition is going to crumble. Once they have to admit that no marijuana is not the same as other drugs and not really dangerous, they will have no credibility to claim anything is dangerous. That is why they are so terrified of marijuana prohibition ending.

                    15. In most people’s mind it is. And when they realize it is not some evil weed, the entire edifice behind prohibition is going to crumble.

                      Wait a minute, are we moving the goalposts? I never indicated that marijuana prohibition wouldn’t be relaxed. I’m making the argument that with whatever relaxation of marijuana prohibition occurs will not immediately be followed by a flood of legalized schedule 1 drugs.

                      Now it seems you’re merely focussing on educating people about marijuana, ie, separating it from the other drugs that you seem to think will all become legal once the marijuana tower crumbles.

                    16. No. you just can’t seem to grasp what I am saying. Once people realize they have been lied to about marijuana, they are going to question what they have been told about other drugs. That is going to cut the knees out from under prohibition.

                      When marijuana is legalized and none of the predicted horror stories materialize, the prohibitionists are either going to have to admit they were lying about marijuana and that it really isn’t like other drugs or they will have to admit that prohibition is not the way to deal with drugs. In short, they will have no good options.

                    17. Once people realize they have been lied to about marijuana, they are going to question what they have been told about other drugs.

                      And on this, we’ll have to agree to disagree, John. I mean, use history as your guide. A large number of people already know they’re being lied to about Marijuana. (see everything else the government lies to us about) It will have no effect on the government messages on heroin, meth or cocaine.

                      When marijuana is legalized

                      I still argue we probably won’t see marijuana legalized, full stop. We will see it “medicalized” and it will be a schedule II drug, like Oxycontin. It will remain a “controlled substance”.

                      Therefore, this so-called floodgate of legalizing controlled substances won’t happen.

                      I stand by my argument. Relaxation of Marijuana prohibition will occur in a vacuum, and will have little to no impact on the drug prohibition industry (AKA “the war on drugs”) at large.

                    18. “No. you just can’t seem to grasp what I am saying. Once people realize they have been lied to about marijuana,”

                      People know that now.

                    19. …but fear the laws against it.

                    20. Ever consider the possibility that had liquor prohib’n lasted longer and spread to more countries, that would’ve increased the chance that pot would be legal today, because people want some sort of legal downer? Hard to judge from Moslem countries, though, they’re a special case.

                      On the one hand there’s the influence of consistency and precedent. On the other, there’s balancing of pressures. Maybe banning tobacco would help with pot because people want something they can legally smoke.

                    21. Care to do a little reading?
                      I think we should legalize all drugs, every damn one of them.
                      Not because I think they are all good, but because if we do legalize the use of all drugs then we can stop treating drugs like a criminal problem and start treating them like what they are, a health problem.
                      Use should be legal, manufacturing (outside of marijuana thats really harmless) should be illegal, selling and distribution should remain illegal as well. Now the laws work against those that seek riches off the lives of the citizens.
                      If you do this it makes it so that people who do use the hard stuff, who are addicted can seek help, reroute some of the money from the failed drug war to rehab and education on drugs. and continue to go after those that make and distribute the hard stuff.

                      Care for a real world example that shows Im right?
                      go ahead, google Portugal drug laws and read the effects of what happened after it was all legalized. Its only been 5 years (my memory may be wrong it could well be 7 years by now or maybe as little as 3) and how fast things have turned around for the people, and for cleaning up the crime.

                      now I do agree with you that if (WHEN!) we legalize weed, its really gonna suck to be a politician thats been supporting the drug war, but honestly, they deserve it, they created the mess. The very thing you speak of now is why shits so bad.
                      a person tries out some weed one day, finds out all the lies and propaganda he has been told are just exactly that, lies. Now they start thinking that all the stuff about the other drugs must be lies too and starts trying them out. This problem already exists, and it leads to more and more people using worse and worse stuff.
                      We are already experiencing the problem your trying so hard to explain. The difference being once it al coems out and we end the bullshti on marijuana, the politician are who will receive the backlash on the lies they spread about it. The worst part is that more and more people will assume because they lied about weed, the rest is a lie too and want to test out the other drugs.
                      The only thing you can do is prepare the next generation to try and keep them from suffering for it all.
                      My children know the truth, they know my stand on it and they know how I feel about marijuana and all the other drugs.

                      Speak out, be active in ending this crap, avoid any drugs dad already did them all in teh 80’s and can tell ya its not a good time and a real bitch to get out of. Avoid weed as well, not because its dangerous, but because its illegal and the ramifications for being caught with it are far worse than anything the drug will ever do to you.
                      Once its legal, Dad will take ya backpacking and we will burn a big fat jay by our fire, together.
                      Course my kids are nearly grown, one 21 this year, and 4 others hot on his tail for age, 1 more thats only 7 now. Kids and step kids. 3 of each. and all but the 7 year old has had a lovely sit down with me and had the entire drug discussion, and the 7 year olds turn is coming, just as soon as he is mature enough to understand it and starts having to face the whole issue of peer pressure and him making a choice with out me there to help and tell him what to do.
                      You can not make a decision for your kids when your not there to do so, but you can influence that decision if you have honest open talks and explain the truth behind all of it.
                      Education is key to stopping all this crap, education starts at home.

                    22. and once they realize that 9/11 was an inside job and that we have been had for soooooooo many years about soooooooo many things …….

                    23. “….unlike alcohol…”

                      On what planet is alcohol NOT a drug??

                    24. No, that’s why lumping cannabis in with other drugs is idiotic.

                      http://Tinyurl.com/Henningfield-Benowitz

                      Please.

          2. Paul has a good point here – Cannabis has a chance because it is actually non-lethal (unless you drop a bail on your head). The others – not so much.

            1. When marijuana becomes legal, even if only in one state, it will open dialogue. That dialogue will include how prohibition has made drugs more dangerous, as well as creating the violence around them.

              Opium and coca leaves are far less lethal than Heroin (cut with quinine?) or cocaine (cut with Levasimole?).

              1. When marijuana becomes legal, even if only in one state, it will open dialogue.

                We’ve been dialoguing about it my entire life.

                I don’t see this moment where, when prohibition on MJ is relaxed that suddenly (cue inspirational orchestral music) our leaders will suddenly stand up in unison and speechify, “Yes, we can imagine a world where we trust our citizens to make informed decisions. A world where people are not incarcerated for the substances they choose to put into their bodies. An enlightened world that values rehabilitation over punishment, compassion over revenge, and a less intrusive government which will not take a parental role over its citizens. A government of the people, by the people and for the people.” *crowd goes wild*

                1. We’ve been dialoguing about it my entire life.

                  Yes and no. The dialogue was rather one-sided, and the number of participants was quite limited, until recently.

                  1. You got me there. Before, only republicans talked about prohibition. Democrats were vaguely skeptical. Now republicans AND Democrats talk about prohibition.

                  2. our team is telepathic.

          3. Wrongo buddy. Look to Portugal for the future.

            Now, if we legalize marijuana that doesn’t mean we’ll change our stance on hard drugs in the next, say, 20 years, but jesus it’s a start.

            Or are you one of those autistic libertards who can’t understand baby steps?

            1. Why would I look at Portugal? Why can’t I look at Amsterdam?

              The problem is I understand baby steps all to well. And if you never grow out of the diapers and get your big boy pants on, baby steps is all we’re ever going to take. Because newsflash, the prohibitionists are taking big boy steps and they’re outpacing us.

              1. they’re outpacing us

                Sorry, you must not live in a medical marijuana state. That explains your narrow-minded, cranky attitude.

                1. I live in a very pro marijuana city, and the best we could do as ask, politely, if the police would “deprioritize” marijuana arrests. If I have time I’ll google the results, but the last journalistic investigation that I read concluded that wasn’t happening.

                  1. In fact, I live in a state where “shrooms” grow wild.

                    1. In fact, I live in a state where “shrooms” grow wild.

                      Ever go foraging for them?

                      I’d love to find caps in the wild, but I’d probably be too scared that I was eating something deadly. But shrooms are….crazy. In a fun/terrifying sort of way.

                    2. Do LSD, much funner trip.

                      Nah, don’t go forraging for ’em. Not sure I’d recognize them anyway.

                      I’d love to find caps in the wild, but I’d probably be too scared that I was eating something deadly.

                      Myth. Of the millions of varieties of mushrooms, only a couple are deadly. I own the book Mushrooms Demystified by David Arora. One of the most difinitive tomes on mushrooms. In his foreward, he debunks the myth that mushrooms are deadly, or even more deadly than many other varieties of edible plants such as wild Onions. He even goes as far as tracing the historical origins of the ‘deadly mushroom’ mythos.

                      If you have any interest in forraging for wild mushrooms, get this book.

                    3. Interesting, thanks for the info. Maybe I’ll just head out and start popping whatever I can find until something fun happens.

                      For what it’s worth, I’ve never been able to find acid. Ryan Grim wrote a piece a few years back about how it had all but disappeared from the recreational drug scene. I’d happily try it if I could find it though — assuming the right setting, atmosphere, etc.

                    4. “Do LSD, much funner trip.”

                      I wouldn’t necessarily agree with that. Shrooms can have a very nice body high, and great visuals.

                      Although they can upset your stomach.

                    5. I didn’t enjoy the visuals I got with shrooms. However, I really knew little about shrooms and may have taken too much.

                    6. location location location

                    7. If you have any interest in forraging for wild mushrooms, get this book.

                      And a microscope. Then you should be 100% sure of what you’re eating.

              2. Why one and not the other?
                let me explain it to you.
                Amsterdam its not exactly legal, its kind of decriminalized, and noone enforces it all, but its sorta just ignored.
                Portugal on the other hand, they legalized it all, every drug. They took drug war money and set up rehabs and education centers to keep people from starting the harder stuff to begin with. The entire country is doing better and drug addiction is falling rapidly, drug use is falling as well, not just problem cases and overdoses but over all use period is on the decline.
                The two have a different system, one is obviously much better than the other.
                Read about portugal, and amsterdam. I am willing to bet if you have the info on both of those situations, then you will understand why you needed to look at portugal and not just the netherlands.

            2. I know, I know, if we could only get a president who smoked weed, all this prohibition stuff would disappear, like so much marijuana smoke on a windy day.

              1. I think it’ll take at least three in a row, even if one didn;t inhale.

          4. becausethe drug war has been a horrendous failure.

            we need a better approach to all drug use.

        2. I hope you are right John. It certainly would make sense. Unfortunately, even among people who I talk to who are 100% for legalized cannabis still believe that “hard” drugs have some sort of magical power to corrupt otherwise pure souls. Marijuana is and has been pretty much mainstream for a long time, so people know that it is not a big deal. Hard drugs have mostly been used by smaller, undesirable groups of people (or people who don’t admit it) and are therefore still an evil other to most people.

          1. Gotta second this. Even people that I know use the harder drugs argue against legalizing them. It’s an attitude of “I can handle it, but I’ve seen on TV how most people can’t”.

            1. And, as Jean P. Shepherd noted, TV is now more believable than real life.

          2. Funny how in the 1960s heroin started to get the same cachet as marijuana, but not for long.

      2. excuse moi, we are not running the country.

        we all turned on, tuned in and moved to the country to raise families.

        yowsah

    3. Wouldn’t the legalization of opiates require withdrawing from an international treaty?

      1. Possibly. But since it was the US who heavily pushed for outlawing opium in the 1910’s, it probably wouldn’t be too much trouble if we weren’t actively against it.

    4. we have cannabinoid receptors in our brains

      oh yeah?

      google: cannabinoid receptor brain

      1. So what? We have receptors for all mind-altering substances, legal and illegal, in our brains. That’s what makes them mind-altering substances.

        1. Hah yeah, no receptor no fun.

          The endocannabinoid system is still not entirely understood, and is a fascinating area of research, but the fact that receptors are involved isn’t exactly unique.

          1. unique shmooonique

            did we already mention that the body produces cannabinoids internally as well? we need them thar friggas

            the psyche also likes the sound in the distance ……….

            toooooooooooooot

            1. Again, that’s not unique — if there is a receptor, then your body has endogenous compounds that activate said receptor. Most drugs regulate or simulate things like dopamine and adrenaline instead of endocannabinoids, but the mechanism isn’t all that different. We’re just talking about a different group of receptors and compounds.

              What’s interesting to me is that scientists were completely unaware of the endocannabinoid system and our cannabinoid receptors until they started analyzing the mechanism by which THC gets a person “high”. It’s a burgeoning area of research in fields like psychology and cancer treatment, and we never would have discovered it if it weren’t for cannabis.

        2. these are certified humdinger specialized highly evolved receptors

          mayhap cromag lax

      2. Anandamide

    5. “”And once that happened people would justifiably wonder why any of this stuff is not legal.”‘

      See, it’s a gateway drug, albeit a different gateway than their rhetoric.

      But we know the deal. It’s about the defense of jobs and money. Theirs.

      1. Agreed.
        How ever its a gateway drug BECAUSE of prohibition. A dealer makes alot more on the harder stuff, not so much on weed. Get people buying the weed from you to try the bad shit, well now ya got some sales and cash! If I could go buy weed in the grocery store, Id never of been exposed to the crack and acid my dealer gave me to get a taste. Had they not lied about how bad marijuana is, Id never of had a reason to not trust them when it came to the pcp and coke.
        prohibition forces a black market, that market is the problem. IF we regulated all of it and did it in the open, no hidden market could exist.

  12. But, but if marihuana is allowed, the niggers and the jazz musicians will get all the white women, and YOU’LL NEVER GET LAID! EVER AGAIN!

    1. How will that be any different than my life now? I’ve been married 20 years, with two kids, and you’re trying to scare me with never getting laid? HA!

      1. life begins when the kids move out and the dog dies.

        1. “and the dog dies.”

          Eat shit.

          1. I take it you haven’t heard this one before.

    2. smoke some herb and learn to play jazz.

      it’s a lot easier when high.

  13. It is really fucking annoying how “this could possibly correlate with traffic accidents” is somehow an acceptable justification for just about any idiotic law imaginable. Just one layer of the stupid on display here.

    1. Speaking of stupid, as a Canadian, you need to explain this.

      https://reason.com/blog/2010/08/25/answer-no#comment_1869996

      1. That’s some high-potency stupid for which there is no mansplanation. Certainly not one of my operatives.

        1. Stop womansplaining everything.

          1. Needs more cowbell. How about “bitchsplaining”? Or, taking a cue from Lafayette on True Blood, “hookersplaining?”

            1. Bitchsplaining is perfect. “Look woman, just stop bitchsplaining for a minute and listen”. I love it.

              1. Yeah that really flows off the tongue.

            2. “Girl… you got some bitchsplainin’ to do!”

        2. If a man is speaking in a forest and there is no woman to hear him, is he still wrong?

          1. Well, duh. Some questions just answer themselves.

    2. experienced stoners don’t act like giggling adolescents.

      we go with the flo and live quite well and safely.

      thanks

      1. This is an important point to make as well. A lot of people imagine that everyone’s pot experience is like that of someone who is smoking for the first time and doesn’t enjoy it.

  14. I do have doubts about how much money could be raised by legalizing and taxing a commodity that has been illegal for decades, and already has an underground infrastructure (including both homegrowing and your friends and neighbors’ homegrowing) that could keep producing it in avoidance of taxes. Not that that argues for keeping it illegal, just for keeping a realistic perspective on the benefits of legalization.

    1. Not that that argues for keeping it illegal, just for keeping a realistic perspective on the benefits of legalization.

      Taxation is not a “benefit”, its a side-effect.

      The benefits consist of the money and civil liberties saved by not fighting it.

      1. The claims of a tax windfall for this seem to me to be as overinflated as the prices quoted by LEAs to make their numbers look better in the news. I’m thinking the windfall is going to come from the reduction in outlays resulting from prohibition – money to local cops, the prison industry, bogus treatment programs. Probably a good idea not to point that out, cause that’s gonna bust a lotta rice bowls. It’s probably the BIGGEST factor that LEA’s are so rabidly against legalization. It kills their funding, and takes away their toys and opportunity to play Bilbo BadAsses on a regular basis, against targets that really aren’t too threatening.

        1. “money to local cops, the prison industry, bogus treatment programs”

          That right there is why it will never be legalized.

          1. That, and people who have never had their door kicked in at 2am and the family pet wasted with automatic weapons fire in front of their kids truly believe it’ll just never happen to them. And that the people it does happen to must be dirty smelly stoner hippies who deserve it because they brought it on themselves. These people probably also buy lots of lottery tickets, because ultimately their math skills suck canal water.

            1. It’s all about power and money.

              Everyone is a suspect.

              You’re a criminal until you prove you’re not by submitting to a search of some kind, and if they find something they confiscate all of your property.

              When real criminals are in short supply there is no justification for a police state, so criminals must be manufactured through unjust laws like prohibition.

              1. But but but, without that police state, the Real Criminals would come out of the woodwork and rape our mothers and kill our fathers!

                That why we have to accept oppression!

    2. Another silly argument that could have been made against alcohol prohibition.

      People like brands. Brands convey status. It’s hard to maintain a brand for an underground product.

      If your wife asked for a bottle of Mogen David and you brought home a clear glass jar filled with purple liquid, what would the reaction be?

      1. Purple drank?

        1. He probably wanted to say “burgundy” not “purple”, but wanted to avoid the direct association with a particular type of beverage.

          Allow me to suggest “maroon”.

      2. I’d tell her to try Nighttrain.

    3. this is the most important social issue in the now, but legalization is very dangerous to the status quo.

      a whole culture wants to come out of the closet. we’re sooooo ready.

      at this time especially, the freedomness would be very beneficial for everyone.

      looks like it’s happening right before our eyes.

    4. Shhh. Don’t tell them that. It doesn’t matter if it works out that way, as long as people who will be convinced by that argument believe it.

  15. “law enforcement officers do not currently focus much effort on arresting adults whose only crime is possessing small amounts of marijuana.”

    Which is technically true since they’ll bust the dude for intent to distribute for as little as a few grams.

    1. Yep. Intent to Distribute is an old bullshit fallback, and requires zero evidence in addition to simple possession.

      1. it’s an ancient game universal jack-boot stomp.

    2. 50,000 mostly brown skinned people got busted for simple possession and BOOKED with permanent record in noo yawk city last year.

      that’s nazi nazi nazi heil

  16. The comments on that article are a beautiful thing. The vast vast majority are mocking the authors and calling them out for their obvious lack of logical arguments and clear interest in preserving the status quo. I think Prop 19 is gonna pass easily.

    1. Only one recourse then: Last minute rescheduling of voting day.

      Sure, the hippies might be able to remember one day to show up, but can they remember to check a week beforehand to make sure of the date?

      1. Hey that happened in The Simpsons.

        I’m not so sure it’ll pass though, Joe. In addition to the predictable prohibitionist nonsense, there seems to be some significant opposition among the less basically cogent members of the “marijuana reform movement”.

        1. early on some of the old guard thought that prop 19 was not the way to go. most have seen the light and have recognized that the time has come today.

          richard lee,the genius behind prop 19 is a solid citizen and has placed oakland at the progressive center of the culture swing.

          the momentum continues to be all on the side of legalization.

          nevertheless garoonteeed nasty tricks to be played in the fed thug game. big money and power is at stake here.

    2. agreed. prop 19 is gonna pass.

      at which point each and every adult in the blessed state of cali will be able to grow 25 square feet of herbalicious.

      doesn’t look like fed gestapo tactics can stop that.

      national legalization real soon is the vibe.

      1. doesn’t look like fed gestapo tactics can stop that.

        Pfft. Just hire more jackboots. JOBS, baby, JOBS!

        1. on a side note, jackboots accept IOUs, right?

          1. how do you know this stuff?

  17. http://www.nssfblog.com/epa-co…..ction-now/

    So the EPA wants to ban lead ammunition. If the ammunition is make out of something other than lead it will be considered “armor piercing” and be illegal. Without lead or steel, you can only make bullets out of copper. And that is expensive and copper is virtually worthless. Using only copper bullets would pretty much end hunting in this country.

    Remember those rumors about how Obama was going to ban ammunition? I never believed them. Now I know better. And pretty much any rumor about that worthless pile of shit, no matter how vile, is likely to be true.

    1. To clarify – EPA does not “want” to ban ammunition; rather, some environmental groups have submitted a petition to EPA, asking EPA to use its rulemaking authority under the Toxic Substances Control Act to ban the manufacture, processing and distribution in commerce of lead shot, bullets, and fishing sinkers.

      EPA has opened a rulemaking docket for the purpose of receiving public comment on the petition. Get your comments in before Oct. 31. You can access the docket here.

      1. True. It will be interesting to see what they do.

        1. Assuming the EPA takes the issue and bans it. What’s the odds there will be an execption for law enforcement?

      2. Do auto shops still use lead to balance wheels? I don’t think roofers use it anymore to flash chimneys but it was a good option due to flexibility. And lead hammers are great b/c they’re soft and can be re-cast rather easily once they’re banged out of shape. Damn kids ruin everything!

        1. I have seen lead flashing use on This Old House as recently as a year ago. It sure did mold easily.

      3. always a good idea to keep guns out of the hands of violent wackos.

        you know the ones who have no idea who the enemy actually is?

        and aren’t christians supposed to be peaceful?

        1. and aren’t christians supposed to be peaceful?

          Only after you’ve accepted Christ As Your Personal Savior And Compass of Moral Legislation.

          1. Agreed!

          2. all u need is luv

            luffffff luuuuuuuuuuffffffffff

            izallllllll

            u neeeeeeeeeeeed

    2. Tell me about it. While the X-Bullet, etc… isn’t so bad, if a bit pricier than your garden variety spitzer, I nearly had heart failure comparing prices for lead shot vs Heavi-shot or Tungsten Matrix.

      With the Journolist thing, unfortunately I have to agree with your comment, “And pretty much any rumor about that worthless pile of shit, no matter how vile, is likely to be true.”

    3. I wonder if Obama fucks sheep. BTW, anyone know for certain whether Joel Pile fucks sheep? I have no idea regarding the latter.

      1. o also has citizenship in the kingdom of hawai’i.

        and that’s true.

    4. Banning lead bullets would piss a lot of people off big time. And a lot of influential people too. I would be very surprised if this happened. I could be wrong, but shooting is way too popular of a pastime in the country for this to fly. If it somehow does, I see a big market jump up for bullet molds and reloading equipment.

      1. laser beams work better anyway

    5. not only is he a moozie commie

      he’s a citizen of the sovereign nation of Hawai’i.

      true

      look it up.

  18. They also say in the editorial, “no other country in the world has legalized MJ as prop 19 proposes to do, so the dimensions of the resulting catastrophe are unknowable…” (paraphrasing as I can’t bear to read it again).

    They neglect to mention that prior to 1934, MJ was completely legal in the whole fucking country. We seem to have survived that OK, and even managed to produce the “greatest generation”.

    1. They also neglect to mention how “every other country in the world” didn’t prohibit MJ until the USofA told them to.

      1. I guess they forgot about Portugal. Oh, and Uraguay, too, where personal use possession is legal. The reports of social upheaval must have been crowded off the page by a Paris Hilton/Kim Kardashian cat fight, so they’ve got a valid excuse for overlooking it.

        1. Did Portugal actually legalize mj or just decriminalize it? Heck, Mississippi decriminalized it.

          LEGALIZE IT.

          1. “Decrimilization” in my state (NC) has ostensibly happened, but it didn’t stop me from getting 6 months of supervised probation for a bowl and two stems. I can’t make this stuff up.

            Not coincidentally, I started reading
            Reason during the aforementioned probationary period.

            1. Seems like government makes more libertarians than are born naturally. Is that irony?

              1. Seems like government makes more libertarians than are born naturally. Is that irony?

                Irony? No, I think that feature was builtin intentionally.

              2. libertoonians will always be a fringe group.

                so sh!t or get off the pot

            2. I’m in NC too. Luckily I’ve never had to test this, but I always guessed that the “decriminalization” here was bullshit. Sorry you had to get fucked by it man, that sucks.

            3. Marijuana: creating libertarians since 1934.

    2. They neglect to mention that prior to 1934, MJ was completely legal in the whole fucking country. We seem to have survived that OK, and even managed to produce the “greatest generation”.

      But just imagine how fantastically GREAT that generation could have been, if only MJ had been illegal.

  19. “This is what we have always done. We cannot be expected to do something different.”

  20. Kerlikowske et al. offer one against it: Increased consumption of marijuana will lead to “more accidents and fatalities involving drivers under its influence.” They cite “a nationally representative roadside survey by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration” that found “8% of nighttime weekend drivers tested positive for marijuana.”

    Rich offers: Increased consumption of cheese crackers will lead to “more accidents and fatalities involving drivers under its influence.” He cites “a nationally representative roadside survey by the Rich Highway Traffic Safety Administration” that found “2% of nighttime weekend drivers tested positive for cheese crackers.”

  21. If the Federal state continues to prohibit a plant (Cannabis/marijuana) for the shake and benefit of the pharmaceutical industry civic unrest will eventually spread and become an even bigger problem. One thing is sure about the American people – they are well informed and know when a law is unjust.

    The bigger issue therefore, for the American state, over and above whether or not marijuana should be regulated, is that their credibility is being eroded by their refusal to rescind a law that was created not based on facts, but on greed.

    If the American state cannot be trusted to engage in an honest and open debate with the American people (who put them where they are now) how can they be trusted on the Global Stage.

    1. for the shake

      No one does it for the shake. Maybe some nice, tight buds, but definitely not the shake.

      1. depends on the shake holmes.

        kif

    2. Civic unrest?

      Stoners are too lazy to get up and get a job, let alone participate in civil unrest.

      Puh-leeeze!

      1. nice lil stereotype world there, bro

        apple pie

    3. You haven’t been following the American people for long, have you? We have been taking their shit for almost a century now.

      1. We do better than the other developed countries I think. We didn’t just roll over when the government tried to ban handguns in the ’90’s. We still have more economic freedom compared to Europe and Canada.

        1. We still have more economic freedom compared to Europe and Canada.

          No, we don’t. Canada and Ireland (and I think Switzerland) beat us in the last Freedom House poll.

        2. i gots me a atomic hand gun

    4. You think Americans as a whole are well-informed and know the difference between justice & injustice?

      1. yes, when the popcorn is buttered

  22. California has so much wrong going for it but if they shove Prop 19 up these czars’ arses, then I’ll take it all back.

    If Prop 19 fails, then par for the course, California.

    1. this is going to pass.

      arnie likes weed too

    2. I live in CA, and I am voting yes on 19, but I am not at all convinced it will pass. Maybe I am just cynical, but rationality seems to be in short supply in CA.

      1. irrationality works for the stoner just fine.

  23. $10 says that the dimwits writing this load of crap were sitting around the table with a glass of merlot* in their hands.

    *since they’re each too much of a pussy for bourbon

    As for my rubuttal: Why should Marijuana be legal? Because FUCK YOU, that’s why!

    1. Excellent..

    2. As for my rubuttal: Why should Marijuana be legal? Because FUCK YOU, that’s why!

      You can’t argue with that logic.

    3. Not infallible, but much less flawed than the argument to continue prohibition.

    4. have you taken your medicinal mj today?

      1. That would be an obvious “no.”

        1. you should have seen him ten minutes before the mmj kicked in

    5. Teehee! If it weren’t for Marijuana we wouldn’t have Emoticons and Silly Bandz!!

      1. or

        alfred e newman

  24. The popping noise of so many people simultaneously pulling their heads out of their asses and realizing that this bad flawed policy, which is producing exactly the results, and worse, that is it designed ostensibly to prevent would likely be so loud as to be mistaken for the Yellowstone super volcano going off by observers in Sri Lanka.

    1. I am continually astonished at how long prohibition has run, and how bad this policy has been for America and the rest of the world to boot.

      My city council, known around here as the league of imbeciles, has come out with a unanimous vote condemning prop 19. It drives me to rage.

      I sure hope prop 19 passes, for a bunch of different reasons:
      1. it is the sane and correct thing to do.
      2. quicken the erosion of the whole prohibition mentality.
      3. sends a big, loud, “FUCK YOU” to the feds.

      1. 2. quicken the erosion of the whole prohibition mentality.

        That is john’s point in the long string of posts above, in case you didn’t get it.

      2. Lets not forget about the care of our sick and injured. I find it unreal that people are prescribed medication that takes medication to get one off of the originally prescribed medication, i.e. Oxycontin. Some folks would legitimately benefit from being prescribed Marijuana as opposed to some Opiates or Benzo’s.

    2. you folks are not able to wrap your minds around the fact that the drug war against us all has been wildly successful, perversely pleasureful, and done with hierarchical malice aforethought.

      school of tuff luv

  25. To serve and protect….our jobs.

    1. Let’s not forget our prison industry, our intolerance, racism, ignorance, etc. To serve and protect…our failed policy. They’re pretty persuasive though, I am convinced that when you fail you should just fail harder and then maybe you won’t fail. Not! Fail!

  26. According to one study, 30% of all traffic fatalities were found to have food in their stomachs at the time of the accident. It’s clear that eating and then driving just don’t mix

    1. Naturally, cops will still be allowed to eat donuts in their cruisers.

      1. if everyone has a chip, then one computer can run the show and set us all free to run our outdoor markets freely without interference from u know who. john galt

  27. Comparing pot to tomatoes is false. You can’t grow tomatoes outdoors year round. The tomatoes you buy in winter here are shipped from countries were it’s summer there. On the other hand you can easily grow 3 pounds of pot in a season which can be stored long term and have an ounce a week to smoke for a year.

    1. Outdoors with 1 harvest per year, 25 square feet (what the law would allow) will yield around 12.5 ounces, enough for at least 450 average size joints.

      1. closer to 2-3 pounds long season fat buds is my ed guess

        and if you have a couple of adults in the house and what about grand ma n pa lotta square ft and within a few months what with no policing you should be able to grow as much as you want and need.

        the possibilities are endless.

        next thing you know we’ll bring home the troops and get high with bin laden.

    2. You can store tomatoes, too. The supplies needed are available at your local Wal Mart.

  28. If you want the facts about marijuana listen to my blog talk radio show “Why We Need To Vote Yes on Prop 19.” Get the facts from someone who knows the truth from the propaganda.

  29. Law Enforcement AGAINST Prohibition:

    http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

    1. Yes. Everyone who doesn’t know about leap should give them some money and tell the least stupid cops you can find about them.

  30. A piss poor commentary by Gil Kerlikowske and an even worse rebuttal by Sullum.

    Kerlikowske argues that because people can avoid a “high tax” (pun not mine) on pot there will be no tax benefit. Sullum’s brilliant responds is that pot is difficult to grow.

    Headshake

    1. Taxable marijuana is the new gay marriage. It’s like a cosmotarian purity test.

      1. more like the ol fashioned n!gga game and a hot potato

    2. Um, there was a bit more to Sullum’s response than that.

      In any case, one could also say that tomatoes are “easy and cheap” to grow, or that beer is “easy and cheap” to brew. I’ve done both, but I still buy tomatoes and beer in stores. The supply is more reliable and varied, and it’s a lot easier. Accounting for the time and effort required to grow tomatoes and brew beer, buying them in the store is cheaper too, even though I have to pay taxes on them.

      I’m not sure where your objection to Sullum’s take is coming from. He’s pretty consistently excellent on drug policy. Ever read Saying Yes?

      1. The fact that he’s pretty consistently excellent makes readers expect a lot.

        1. Sure, and I’ve got no problems with high expectations — I’m just not clear on why this post was particularly disappointing.

      2. this blog guy if he tokes at all he does so in his closet when the moon is full.

        1. and thanks for the space

    3. You are right that the correct response should be “so what?”. But if we want to make anything happen on this, we need to use arguments that people who disagree with us about everything else will listen to.

    4. Ever tried to grow it to where it actually produces good buds. Not that easy.

      1. yes

        you do have to pay attention

        with a little practice …..

  31. I’m for legalization of marijuana.

  32. time to legalize

    flowa powa

  33. You can’t argue with that level of stupid+evil.

    Note how he cites an oral swab procedure for weekend night drivers (who have been accused of no crime), then refuses to identify the method for detecting THC in fatalities. Moreover, if 8% of drivers are high at night, that sure as hell isn’t reflected in accident statistics.

    Note how he starts off talking about freeing up police resources, and then cites his authority and that most police “do not support legalizing marijuana.” He never rebuts the argument.

    And note how he never, ever addresses the issues of freedom of choice, the costs of incarcerating hundreds of thousands of completely non-violent individuals, or the societal costs of prohibition to our southern neighbors.

    Bottom line: All fucking six of them argue that their leadership and experience in waging the war on drugs lends their argument credence. The war on drugs is a miserable fucking failure. If anything, they should be the last people we turn to. That they argue their position by deliberating withholding relevant information makes it all the worse.

    Can we at least volunteer them to join the front lines in Mexico fighting their war?

    1. Agreed, if they want to fight a real war there’s two going on right now. Maybe once they bury some of their friends who were killed in real combat they’ll understand that they’re not fighting a war, they’re selling law enforcement job protection.

    2. C’mon, we all know that the War on Drugs would be a slam dunk if we only threw a few more trillions of dollars at it.

    3. bring on WIKILEAKS

      julian assange hello

    4. Unfortunately the government doesn’t even acknowledge was little scientific research is out there. Looking back at the Drug Policy Adviser in Europe who was canned for his opinion on the Scheduling level of Marijuana. Many people resigned after he was canned because the government was certainly not backing the scientific evidence.

  34. agree, but how will this effect employment drug-testing? will it is effect it at all? I guess if an employer can ban tobacco users they can prohibit mj users still. Among lots of people I know the only reason they won’t partake in occaisional mj use is because of their jobs/future employment prospects. Will you ever be able to smoke a joint as freely as you can have a beer or two? And be forced to piss in a cup and get fired for it?

    Too many people think pissing in a cup is perfectly reasonable thing to do when all it really catches is hardcore addicts and marijuana smokers.

    ehh,whatever
    LEGALIZE IT!

    1. FTR, Prop 19 has language addressing this. Essentially it says that while employers can certainly discipline or fire employees for being under the influence on the job, they cannot discriminate against employees based on the mere presence of inactive cannabis metabolites in the urine.

      So you can get fired for being high at work, but not for getting high on the weekends. Sounds about right.

      1. my lord, if it were true, it would be beautiful. I have hope.

      2. the good news is you can only get fired if you have a job.

    2. The real problem with drug testing is that so many willingly submit to it. It amazes me that so many people find it perfectly OK for an employer to snoop on what they do on their own time (of course an employer has a right to do this, but if people refused to cooperate, they probably wouldn’t. Make employers realize that you are doing them a favor, not the other way around.).
      If those little cups started coming back filled with shit on a regular basis employers might change their approach and judge employees by how they perform at their jobs.

      1. If those little cups started coming back filled with shit on a regular basis employers might change their approach

        You don’t think they’d just test the shit?

        1. employer wants productive unit

  35. Here, just for grins, are some other statutes from around the nation that I assume these six fuckwits would support repealing in order that no law enforcement officer will ever be forced to measure anything. (note: I just ran a search using the string “presence of a minor” in the unannotated statues of the 50 states.

    A.C.A. 5-64-407: banning the manufacture of meth in the presence of certain persons.
    C.R.S.A. 18-6-401: all kinds of crimes you can commit just by being in someones presence.
    IC 35-42-4-5: fondling in the presence of a minor.
    I.C.A. 124.401C:more meth manufacturing
    I.C.A. 232.68: commission of bestiality in the presence of a minor is child abuse.
    17 M.R.S.A. 1031: defining having sex with an animal in the presence of a minor as bestiality. (this seems duplicative, as it’s also bestiality to have sex with an animal without minors present)
    M.S.A. 609.3451: lewd conduct
    M.S.A. 617.23: indecent exposure
    MCA 45-5-627: THIS IS MY FAVORITE. It is ritual abuse of a minor if you, in the presence of a minor, rub animal feces or urine on another person.
    Code 1976 44-53-378: more meth
    T.C.A. 40-39-215: to assume the identity of a fictional character in the presence of a minor, if you are a sex offender. This could be a problem on Halloween, or at Star Trek conventions.

    1. Problem? It’d be a HUGE problem with Star Trek conventions.

      1. that a problem for u?

  36. These guys are the self-proclaimed experts on the matter and this is truly the best that they can come up with? Not to mention that they are the top commanders in the war on drugs. WEAK SAUCE!

    1. loyal lapping dogs

  37. The stereotypes and stigma that surrounds MJ is the result of the illegality therein; and not a reflection of the true nature/reality of MJ.
    “Pot Culture”has never had the chance to evolve beyond terrible hollywood movies or irresponsible hiphop artists…
    Alcohol is a terrible substance that, despite being challenging to use in moderation, has evolved over time and much effort a sort of culture of moderation: Don’t drink and drive; a glass of wine at night is GREAT even if you’re the most stuck up bitch on wall-street and so on…
    Conclusion: Pot culture can evolve to become something positive in our society, and with the right people speaking honestly about this substance young people and fools alike will have try very hard to justify their ignorance and excess.

    1. HAS evolved and continues …..

  38. To me these statements have a “DUH” factor of about 1000. The arguments they use in opposition are the exact reasons why we should end prohibition NOW! I liken the home production of cannabis to growing carrots. We could have home grown and made vegetables, wine, beer, medicine. It would take some profit from corporations that mass produce those items and would provide some strong competition. That being said, those corporations are very much against ending prohibition on cannabis, and have been known to financially support the opposition. Wrong, wrong, wrong!

    1. That being said, those corporations are very much against ending prohibition on cannabis

      The hell? “Those” corporations? Which ones?

      http://www.noonproposition19.com/endorsements/display

      On this list of prominent opponents of Prop 19 I see dozens of politicians (left and right), city councils, sheriffs and law enforcement agencies. I found two companies.

      I hate to break it to you, but if pot’s eventually legalized, you better believe there will be more corporations selling it than there are today (i.e. none).

      1. see it’s like this:

        hemp is an amazing plant.

        pharmaceutical companies are not happy. the oil companies do not want hemp. the illegal drug profiteers hiding behind cayman island shells corps of the m-i-c do not want hemp and so forth.

  39. 2 words: path dependence. A lot of people will grow their own because they’re used to it and know how.

    1. path FUN

  40. Why does it matter how people vote? If a judge doesn’t like it, he’ll null it.

    1. maybe yes maybe no

      most likely if he wants to keep his job …… yes

  41. “If growing pot were as easy as the Six Drug Czars imply, there would not be much of a market for all the books and periodicals that explain how to do it properly.”

    Really, is that so? To grow a marijuana plant, all you have to do is plant a seed in your backyard. No care required. Anyone and everyone could grow it if they so desired. Marijuana is so easy to grow it’s not even funny.

    Yet there is still a market for books about the subject. Why? Because anyone can grow weed in their backyard with no effort, but high-quality weed can only be grown with precise conditions and constant care.

    1. Smoking that shit that grows wildly in corn fields only makes you a stupid– We wont the Chronic!

    2. start with high quality seeds or clones

      water fertilizer sunshine not too cold or too hot love not much work

      in my view top quality cannabis will soon be much cheaper and friendlier.

      and that will make me hippier.

  42. This OPED reminds me of the late 1996 gathering of Gerald, Betty, Ron, Nancy, George and Barbara to film an opposing ad spot against Prop 215 (California Medical MJ).

    It rolled at the ballot box with over 55%….and that was back when most Americans probably still believed the federal claim that pot = heroin

  43. location vacation location vacation

  44. “If the opposite of pro is a con then look beyond this, the opposite of congress must be progress…”
    –Cage

  45. this country desperately needs legalization.

    ah, it’s a long story.

  46. How long before tomato cultivation is precluded under the aggregation principle in dormant Commerce Clause jurisprudence?

    That there are probably millions of households undercutting large-scale domestic and international tomato production could be cause for concern among some quarters.

    Unlike marijuana, which does require careful cultivation, tomatoes produced on the household level are usually far superior to those found in commercial distribution outlets.

  47. Go Prop 19!! The rest of the world is watching and desperately waiting for you to take the lead… Change cannot come soon enough.

    Words cannot express my disdain and disgust about the LA Times piece. Such lies should be subject to criminal proceedings.

  48. “Marijuana unlike alcohol is a drug and it is lumped in with other drugs.”

    Did someone actually say that? Alcohol is very much a drug, highly addictive, claiming 100s of lives every year just from overdose.

    Cocaine, Heroin and alcohol all work on the same part of the brain.

    Using the phrase “alcohol and drugs” is just like using the phrase “pizza and food”.

    I had thought all of the know nothings had gotten the memo.

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