Grays of Making Them Talk
The fuzzy line between approved interrogation methods and prisoner abuse
In a 2004 report that was made public on Monday, the CIA's inspector general noted that "a number of agency officers of various grade levels who are involved with detention and interrogation activities are concerned that they may at some future date be vulnerable to legal action." Depending on your view of the Bush administration's "enhanced interrogation techniques," this spontaneously expressed fear shows either that the officers knew they were breaking the law or that they worried they would be punished for policy decisions made by their superiors.
There is evidence to support both interpretations, which in the end are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately, John Durham, the special prosecutor appointed by Attorney General Eric Holder to investigate the CIA's treatment of terrorism suspects, is not supposed to consider the culpability of higher-ups, Democrats as well as Republicans, who condoned abuse or turned a blind eye to it.
The worst example of mistreatment described in the report involved a CIA contractor who in 2003 beat an Afghan detainee to death with a metal flashlight. Because no autopsy was performed, the contractor could not be charged with homicide, but he was ultimately convicted of assault.
It seems clear that waterboarding, which involves both "severe physical or mental pain or suffering" and "the threat of imminent death," violates the federal ban on torture. But any prosecution of CIA officers for using the simulated drowning technique would be complicated by the fact that the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel claimed otherwise, relying on a strained, implausible reading of the statute.
The inspector general's report notes that waterboarding as practiced by the CIA went beyond the method approved by the Justice Department, involving larger amounts of water and many more applications (at least 83 for one detainee, 183 for another). But the CIA's general counsel said he received oral approval from Attorney General John Ashcroft for deviating from the original description.
Other methods mentioned in the report were never cleared with the Justice Department. By menacing a detainee with a handgun and a power drill, a CIA debriefer seems to have committed a felony, since the legal definition of torture includes "severe mental pain or suffering" caused by "the threat of imminent death." Likewise the interrogators who tried to elicit information through mock executions.
The law also forbids causing "severe mental pain or suffering" through "the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering." That provision seems to cover threatening to kill a detainee's children or leading him to believe that his mother, wife, and/or daughter would be raped in front of him, as CIA interrogators allegedly did.
Another interrogator admitted to repeatedly pressing a prisoner's carotid artery until he was on the verge of unconsciousness. This interrogator "noted that he has…years of experience debriefing and interviewing people and until recently had never been instructed how to conduct interrogations."
When he finally did receive instructions, he was told that waterboarding, slapping, wall slamming, painful "stress positions," sleep deprivation for up to 11 days, and confinement in a small dark box (with or without insects) were perfectly legal. According to the CIA's general counsel, these methods were not only cleared by top Bush administration officials but described to senior members of the House and Senate intelligence committees, none of whom objected. In this permissive environment, it's not surprising that interrogators thought they had a green light to get creative with pressure points, power drills, stiff brushes, "hard takedowns," smoke, dousing, and death threats.
"Ten years from now we're going to be sorry we're doing this," one CIA officer told the inspector general's office, but "it has to be done." That is the attitude of conservatives who believe in the rule of law so strongly that they thought a president who lied about oral sex deserved impeachment for committing perjury yet think a president who allowed torture deserves praise for doing what was necessary.
Jacob Sullum is a senior editor at Reason and a nationally syndicated columnist.
© Copyright 2009 by Creators Syndicate Inc.
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Yawn.
? It's quite obvious that these torturers will never get convicted if we proceed through the regular justice system, with its technicalities and its excessive tenderness toward defendants. If the torturers invoke their right to a jury trial, they will probably bamboozle the stupid, emotional jurors with a lot of antiterrorist rhetoric. And the right against self-incrimination means that these torturers can't be forced to confess their heinous crimes. The only way to make sure the torturers get the justice they deserve is to try them before military tribunals, without pesky jurors and with relaxed rules of evidence so that the defendants' coerced confessions can be used against them. ?
(Note: The symbol ? is an Ethiopian symbol for sarcasm)
Casey Serin should be water-boarded as a public spectacle.
I agree with Kafka...
I simply have a hard time understanding why people are getting their knickers in a twist over this...
So I am supposed to be outraged that some interrogators did any or all of the following:
Sexual humiliation
Sleep deprivation
Cold room treatment
Waterboarding
To a man in KSM who not only admitted that he sawed the head off of a living human being (Daniel Pearl) in front of a video camera but also masterminded the deaths over over 3000 people on 9/11? Really?
So its the interrogation techniques are what we are supposed to be outraged about? yawn...that dog wont hunt with me nor will it with the majority of Americans. The report bears out that these techniques produced results and saved American lives. I for one will have no trouble sleeping at night armed with this knowledge.
"...shows either that the officers knew they were breaking the law or that they worried they would be punished for policy decisions made by their superiors. " OR that they realized that at some point in the future someone who try to make political hay out of this and they wanted protection from the nonsensical witch hunt launched by a President desperately trying to change the subject from his own failed policy initiatives...
These officers have no doubt been around long enough to have witnessed their peers and predecessors get yanked around by this type of goat rope before. Were there a legal defense fund for these guys, I would reach for my checkbook right now.
KSM who not only admitted that he sawed the head off of a living human being (Daniel Pearl) in front of a video camera but also masterminded the deaths over over 3000 people on 9/11? Really?
This is a reason to try him, convict him, and subject him to the death penalty. It is not a justification for torturing him without trying him for his crimes.
As inconvenient as it might be, we have laws.
-jcr
? The 'murderer exception' to the torture statutes. Of course - I should have thought about that before. If someone is a murderer, then it should be perfectly legal to torture him. Not only that, but the decision of whether he's a murderer should be made by executive-branch officials. Genius! ?
I used to associate this sort of rhetoric with Turkish newspaper editorials. Perhaps I was being unfair. At least the Turks faced an ongoing Commie insurrection in their own national territory - undoubtedly a justification for Turkish security forces using enhanced interrogation of prisoners.
And I have no doubt that the enhanced interrogation practiced in Egypt has saved Egyptian lives from terrorists - not to mention the lives of Western tourists who are targeted by Islamist terrorists in that country.
I read the memos and scores of critical and supporting analysis (the comments at Volokh were rich with it) and what struck me was how mild the approved "torture" was! Waterboarding was reserved only for detainees interrogators knew had knowledge of operational plans.
Two things are clear to me: 1. CIA did not flaunt their duty to the law and requested guidance from DOJ lawyers on proposed techniques. 2. DOJ lawyers relied upon the definition of torture in US Code, which was modified to meet international treaty obligations. Under US Code torture must be "specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering". Their legal analysis wasn't, ahem, tortured in the least! It hinged on the plain words as defined in 18US?2340.
Why did Sullum omit the first part of the definition? Is he practicing a bit of Mary Mapes style editing of facts?
? So to all the Egypt-haters out there, I will just say: Whom do you support, the tourists or the terrorists? ?
TT,
I would guess that the protections offered to defendants under our Constitution will protect most suspects from being convicted. Of course, we won't know this without some kind of investigation.
Randolph is a fool
John,
These techniques are not about trials, they are about counter-terrorism. Courts do not provide actionable and current INTEL on preventing future attacks. Abu Zubaydah and other senior al Qaeda high value detainees simply should not be afforded rights under the Constitution. They are enemy combatants captured on the battlefield and should not be placed in the US judicial system for a variety of reasons.
Had the govt followed your suggestion we would quite possibly had to endure any number of other attacks at home and abroad purpetrated by those who but for the EIT would not have been rolled up. But perhaps we would have had a nice circus trial (like Moussaoui's) for KSM. The fact that "we have laws" would be cold comfort to those who lost family and friends in attacks that could have been prevented. Who would be the one to deliver that news?
You?
Would you look those affected by the attacks that would not have been prevented in the eyes and tell them "sorry your husband was killed, but as inconvenient as it might be, we have laws."
It is so easy to sit 7 years after the fact and armchair quarterback this but in late 2001 and 2002 our government needed to protect the American people. They did that and I am thankful.
That depends on whose justice system is used.
The CIA conducted interrogations in a black site in Thailand. If the conduct of the interrigations violating Thai law, the interrogators can be tried in Thai court.
Did any of that alleged torture happen in America?
Was any of it done by American troops subject to the UCMJ?
Look up "Shawki Salama Attiya".
Have them prosecuted by our allies in Egypt.
If Israel got to prosecute Adolf Eichmann...
Internet Tuff Gais never think torture is torture because they are so Tuff. They never think simulated drowning is severe because they are Tuff. Being locked in a freezer for hours is nothing if you are Tuff. Hanging from the ceiling with your arms behind your back isn't torture if your Tuff, why that's just a Tuesday night in Tufftown! Tuff gais don't care if a German Shepard is snarling inches away from their scrotum. Hell, Tuff gais like it when you hook a car battery to their junk.
And certainly nothing was done intentionally. Why I'm sure the detainees were accidentally not tortured completely not on purpose to make them talk. The poor innocent CIA agents couldn't form intent! How could they possibly know that pouring water over someone's face while the were on a table specifically desgined for that purpose would have the effect that they were trying to create? It's like they are expected to be psychics!
I mean, if I pull out a loaded gun and fire it at the center mass of someone two feet away from me, how could I have possibly foreseen or intended for a piece of high velocity metal to pierce their body? Causation is a fucking mystery!
Torture is subjective only insomuch as you can dismiss it if you went through it. Let's torture the Tuff Gais and see how long they last.
The fact that "we have laws" would be cold comfort to those who lost family and friends in attacks that could have been prevented. Who would be the one to deliver that news?
You?
I'd gladly accept that assignment.
Hundreds of thousands of US military personnel have died in battle to protect our Constitution.
If we can ask men to die to protect the Constitution, we can ask the public to accept the risk that comes because we might not get every piece of data we might acquire by violating the Constitution.
Since we can never know if Bush administration misconduct inspired more anti-American violence than it prevented anyway, this is an easy choice, as far as I am concerned.
And even this IG report redacts information about a large number of detainee deaths in custody, and allows the farcical pretense that we "lost" detainees and "don't know what happened to them". What a crock. Unredact the report and tell the truth about the "lost" detainees and then maybe we can talk about whether we should cut these interrogators some slack because they "thought what they were doing was legal".
SugarFree,
If waterboarding and other EIT methods are acceptable for SERE training with our own troops then it is acceptable to use elsewhere.
Our people do go through it and many of them last a very long time, others dont do as well. Why dont you try talking "tuff" to those guys and see how long YOU last.
These techniques are not about trials, they are about counter-terrorism. Courts do not provide actionable and current INTEL on preventing future attacks.Red Herring.
Abu Zubaydah and other senior al Qaeda high value detainees simply should not be afforded rights under the Constitution. They are enemy combatants captured on the battlefield and should not be placed in the US judicial system for a variety of reasons. Begging the Question
Had the govt followed your suggestion we would quite possibly had to endure any number of other attacks at home and abroad purpetrated by those who but for the EIT would not have been rolled up. But perhaps we would have had a nice circus trial (like Moussaoui's) for KSM. Speculation
The fact that "we have laws" would be cold comfort to those who lost family and friends in attacks that could have been prevented. Who would be the one to deliver that news? ...Would you look those affected by the attacks that would not have been prevented in the eyes and tell them "sorry your husband was killed, but as inconvenient as it might be, we have laws." Emotional appeal
It is so easy to sit 7 years after the fact and armchair quarterback this but in late 2001 and 2002 our government needed to protect the American people. They did that and I am thankful. Red Herring again
It's a little early for so many fallacies in so short a span, Kraut. Ease up on us a little, will ya?
Mick Kraut,
It's cute that you have to deliberately ignore the difference between voluntary and involuntary interactions to make your point. And by "cute," I mean "pathetic."
You are sickening excuse for a human being.
Fluffy,
You mention that "we can ask the public to accept the risk that comes because we might not get every piece of data we might acquire by violating the Constitution."
Please explain to me where the constitution was violated...which rights of the detainees specifically? When exactly did non US citizen - enemy combatants captured in the mountains of Afhganistan get afforded the same rights as US citizens?
Mad Max I do support tourists over terrorists. I am pro life and peach rather the risky minds of the terrorists.
I don't care what is done to captured terrorists and think that all laws are inoperative when dealing with them. Their lives are forfeit by their personal choice to attack and kill the innocent and the only utility they serve is for the acquisition of information to protect and save innocents.
I don't care, I never did and I never will but I do wonder why they are still alive.
Hugh,
Red Herring. Explain
Begging the Question
Speculation Yes, couldnt be anything but
Emotional appeal So what? Is it any less valid?
Red Herring again Explain
ALL - I missyped, that isnt from SugarFree that is from me...I was typing in the wrong field and didnt catch until afterwords...sorry about that...
If waterboarding and other EIT methods are acceptable for SERE training with our own troops then it is acceptable to use elsewhere.
When we waterboard them, it is to teach them how to resist, wait for it, torture.
Red Herring 1: The issue here is specifically about the means the CIA used, not the ends they were pursuing in doing so. "Actionable intel" is a bullshit dodge.
Speculation: If we allow the argument that not allowing the gov't to get away with [blank] would result in far more dire consequences, it justifies anything they want it to.
Emotional Appeal: Yes, it does make it less valid. Murderers and rapists have families that are upset about the stringency of laws against them as well. We still enforce them. Sad puppies are not an argument.
Red Herring: Punitive laws are specifically set to punish people in retrospect for actions they have committed. It is not armchair quarterbacking to judge the wrongness of an illegal action after the fact. Also, it implies that torturing these people was the only way to protect American people (the only people with rights, don't you know?).
When exactly did non US citizen - enemy combatants captured in the mountains of Afhganistan get afforded the same rights as US citizens?
When we decided not to declare them POW's immediately upon capture.
The Geneva Convention on prisoners of war is designed to protect legal combatants from being subjected to criminal law, whether military or civilian. That means that as soon as we decided these guys weren't legal combatants, they were subject to criminal law. As soon as we moved them out of the war zone, they were no longer subject to military criminal law, so that leaves no other alternative but civilian criminal law. And every last asshole subjected to our civilian criminal law system is entitled to every protection listed in the Bill of Rights.
The entire argument that "illegal combatant" was some sort of administrative black hole where no defined rules or laws applied was always a canard. It's the sort of statist bootstrapping that has brought us every OTHER violation of the Constitution in American life today.
The idea that we should junk pieces of the Constitution in exchange for safety is an extremely cowardly one. People who regularly have to stand up and defend the 2nd Amendment should be smart enough to immediately distrust and discard any argument that says that safety is more important than the rule of law, but I guess some people are just too damn cowardly to do that.
Had the govt followed your suggestion we would quite possibly had to endure any number of other attacks at home and abroad purpetrated by those who but for the EIT would not have been rolled up
There is only one word worthy of the idea of permitting torture in the name of MAYBE stopping an attack: COWARD!!!!! Why do we have the patriot act and Department of Homeland Security? Because cowardly stupid thinking like this.
"But for" eh?.... hmmmm...I smell a particularly egregious kind of coward, the kind that went to law school.
I don't care what is done to captured terrorists and think that all laws are inoperative when dealing with them
And this is equally fucking stupid. You see just because you don't notice what the Federal Imperial Government does to other people, in your name, the poor victims and collateral damage do. And when 25 people die because you had to send a predator in to kill one person (who may have earned death), they take notice and get pissed off. And after you piss off, maim, harm, torture enough, someone decides to take action.
And you don't care? That's OK, terrorist don't give a shit about common humanity either.
I don't think this is some easy, cut-and-dried issue that can be dismissed one way or the other. I personally oppose the use of torture or even "torture", both for ethical reasons and because I'm dubious of its actual utility, particularly for information we can't independently verify. Not to mention that we've clearly used these tactics on people who were wrongly/mistakenly held. In other words, we tortured/harshly interrogated innocent people.
That said, actually prosecuting anyone here may be tough. It sounds like some threats were made and some pretty harsh techniques were used, but were they so patently illegal that DOJ and other opinions supporting the legality of such interrogation should've been ignored?
I don't think it's rational to compare this to the Nuremberg situation, where soldiers had been involved in brutally murdering thousands of civilians and POWs but protested that they were only obeying orders. That's a black-and-white instance that doesn't really exist here.
Oh, and the administration is definitely pursuing this due to political reasons. When Obama was confident in his position, it was all "I pardon you." Now, of course, reminding the world that he isn't Bush has become more critical. He was wrong not to pursue this in the first place, even if it were to end up with a statement that prosecution wasn't an option.
Every time I speak against waterboarding, some dear soul accuses me of being a bleeding heart liberal who weeps for wet KSM.
Truth is, I do not care about KSM at all. As life goes, he should have ended his miserable life on some dirty battlefield.
What bothers me is the fact that a free republic should employ people to torture other people. I am seriously afraid that, with the general tradition of governmental incompetence and malice, this practice may become more widespread, as the public is being desensitized to it. If terrorists, why not gangsters? If you disagree, try answering this question. For starters: how does one distinguish those two? The categories definitely overlap.
I am from a country whose government tortured political dissenters routinely 50 years ago, and there were some cases well in the 1980s still. Maybe this kind of historical experience results in a different viewpoint?
Sexual humiliation, sleep deprivation, and cold room treatment ARE NOT TORTURE. That is not to say thet they are not techniques that should be employed by a nation intent on maintaing a "moral high-ground", but they are a far cry from what anyone living in the real world would call torture. Torture IS NOT anything that makes you a uncomfortable or scared. Torture is PAIN, the kind that you can pass out from. The Geneva Conventions may state that these are "illegal", but it does not classify them a torture. Stop calling everything "you wouldn't want done to you", humiliating, or contrary to your sensibilities "torture", it just makes us look silly to anyone who knows what real torture is.
Coyote: beware about the "sleep deprivation" thing.
"Sleep deprivation" covers a wide spectrum from being kept awake for 1 hour to being kept awake 1 week.
1 hour is definitely not torture.
1 week most definitely is, and it may already kill you.
"The law also forbids causing "severe mental pain or suffering" through "the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering." That provision seems to cover threatening to kill a detainee's children or leading him to believe that his mother, wife, and/or daughter would be raped in front of him, as CIA interrogators allegedly did."
Wow. What a candyassed definition of "torture".
By the way... isn't granting Constitutional rights to non-citizens, kind of like "nation-building"? Should we give these thugs 2nd A. rights upon their release? Welfare checks? Free health care? A multi-million dollar court settlement? (Well, then, at least we could subject them to massive Democrat-style taxation... that's torture, yo.)
A hot curling iron to the genitals... that's torture. Pretending to shoot a terrorist in another room while another one is led to believe there's been an actual shooting... not torture. Neither is having a dog in the room; having the dog close the few-inches gap and actually take scrotum in crunch mode, THAT'S torture.
Next thing you know, telling Ahmed "yo mamma so fat" jokes, will be a Geneva violation.
Personally, I would love to see ex-Dictator Bush brought up on charges and put through ALL of those listed torture techniques!
RT
http://www.online-privacy.es.tc
Oh, and the administration is definitely pursuing this due to political reasons. When Obama was confident in his position, it was all "I pardon you." Now, of course, reminding the world that he isn't Bush has become more critical. He was wrong not to pursue this in the first place, even if it were to end up with a statement that prosecution wasn't an option.
If Obama was even involved in the decision, a crime was committed. Obama would be breaking the law if he said to Holder, "Prosecute these guys!" or if he said "Don't prosecute these guys!"
If you think that Obama told Holder to do this for political purposes, impeachment proceedings are warranted. Personally, I think Obama told Holder "Don't investigate any policy makers! Just invest the low-level guys!" and if I could prove it I would call for impeachment on that basis.
Pretending to shoot a terrorist in another room while another one is led to believe there's been an actual shooting... not torture.
We should apologize to Iran then, since we've been calling them torturers and criminals for conducting mock executions of the Iranian hostages in 1979. They should sue us for libel.
Fluffy,
I fear that such shenanigans do occur, but I was using Obama as shorthand for his administration. Besides, Obama did say publicly that we'd skip all this and move along.
Anonymous: If you can kindly quote the clause in the Constitution that limits the protections it guarantees to citizens of the United States, that portion of your argument will at least hold water.
Sorry, Hugh, but I can't get all teary-eyed over some of what's being called "torture" by the hand-wringing set.
See here, where Dan Lungren skillfully showed why waterboarding as torture depends on intent.
It has nothing to do with being 'tuff'! Sugarfree are you like, 12 or something?
The US statutes, defining torture, in full:
? 2340. Definitions
The DOJ memos 'authorizing torture' relied upon the definitions as set by this statute and case law.
Yes, and the report indicates that the people who did that were told that that went beyond the guidelines and law, and there were internal investigations and all that. Hard to say of course how effective investigations were, but it does seem that the worst abuses, which violated the guidelines, occurred early on, in 2003 and 2004.
There are multiple issues here:
1) Do the official guidelines go too far and allow torture?
2) Was going beyond the official guidelines winked at or not, and if not, how was it punished if at all?
So the idea is that Washington writes up a detailed memo with precise (and gruesome in places) instructions of exactly what's allowed, and we're supposed to assume that that means that it's reasonable that interrogators would go beyond those guidelines and not be admonished? I would actually think that if they did have the green light, the DoD wouldn't issue such precise instructions that some would call torture, preferring to leave everything unwritten. If you're going to let people go beyond what's written down in memos, might as well make what's in the memos as inoffensive as possible.
Apparently they did not have a green light to do so, even though some thought that they did. Granted, while they were admonished and told not to do it again, they weren't actually punished, it seems.
Another dodge. The cognitive dissonance of torture appologists never ceases to amaze me. How weepy you get is not the issue here, nor is your ability to withstand the tactics in question. The issue is whether the tactics at hand violate the constitutional prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment.
HA,
I would say that it depends on whether it violates the federal criminal statute quoted above.
It will be hard to prove a case to a jury of American citizens, who will have to be persuaded beyond a reasonable doubt, and who have the benefit of hearing defense arguments like those of the torture apologists on this thread. Especially since intent has to be proven, and since a defendant can't be made to incriminate himself.
Yet these constitutional protections are scoffed at by the very people who think that the U.S. Constitution gives the executive an escape from the torture laws. Well, the current executive seems willing to target the alleged torturers, and if it shows the same creativity as the last administration, it will be able to find all sorts of arguments for their abuses.
Suppose the admistration said that 'torture is a horrific crime like terrorism, and it provokes reprisals against American servicemen. Therefore, we must do everything we can to find out who these torturers are and put them out of commission - the Constitution and laws be damned!'
Suppose that any 'legalistic' objection to such treatment of torture suspects were met with the same kind of bogus responses we encounter on this thread: 'You seriously want to look a torture victim's mother in the eye and say that we don't know who did this to her son because we were too sensitive to the so-called rights of the witnesses to take the aggressive measures needed to discover the identity of the perpetrators?' 'Do you really want to look the mother of a U.S. soldier in the eye, after the soldier was killed by a terrorist who was inflamed by Ubu Ghraib, and say that pursuing the torturers shouldn't be a national priority?' 'what are you, some kind of sissy?' 'Why do you support torture?'
As for the political motivations of this investigations - duh! Do you think politicians investigate each other - and each others' people - out of a disinterested zeal for justice? Hardly! Their normal preference is to confine law-enforcement activities to the unpopular and unconnected. They usually draw away from prosecuting people with connections and influence. To persuade a politician (like Holder) to investigate other politicians (or suspects with strong political connections) requires a strong political incentive in favor of prosecution - like 'let's distract the public from health care,' or some such thing.
That's why we don't let politicians or their people made decisions on who is guilty and 'deserves' to be punished or tortured.
When exactly did non US citizen - enemy combatants captured in the mountains of Afhganistan get afforded the same rights as US citizens?
When they became helpless prisoners in the custody of US citizens who are bound by the law and the Constitution.
So, we've got a thread up above where the reported CIA manual says "bounce their head off a fucking board up to 30 times" and we've got pinheads on this thread yammering about how there's no torture. Let's play, then.
Come on down to the house and let me shackle you up and bounce your face off a sheet of 3/4" ply a few times. Then you can tell us all if that qualifies as severe physical pain. I can guarantee you what the answer will be if I get 30 tries at slamming your melon into a board.
Max, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. I'm not willing to bend the constitution either in defense of torture suspcts or in pursuit of them. What I would like to see is a declared policy shift from the White House that torture will no longer be authorized or tolerated, and that those suspected of perpetrating or authorizing those methods be prosectuted to the full extent of the law.
HA,
The investigation is on whether people violated the torture statute, not the Bill of Rights.
Unlike the Bill of Rights, the torture statute can be changed or repealed by a simple statutory amendment by Congress. Congress has not made such an amendment, not even after 9/11, when it rolled over to pass the PATRIOT Act. Strangely, that law, while including lots of 'antiterrorist' provisions, didn't include anything to authorize torture of terrorist suspects and witnesses to terror activities.
Why is this? To judge from some of the comments, Congress must have been under the control of the Wimpy Liberal Crybaby Lobby when it passed the Patriot Act without authorizing torture 'to save American lives.'
The Bush Justice Dept decided that the President (and those designated by him) were at liberty to ignore the plain language of the torture statute, because Congress supposedly lacked the power to limit executive-branch torture (really!).
The Bill of Rights argument applies when we're talking about the rights of defendants charged with either terrorism or torture. One might even argue that the Bill of Rights forbids torture of its own force, but the torture statute isn't based on the Bill of Rights.
Good article, but why throw in any comparison to Clinton's crime at the end? He deserved to be impeached, and he was. The crimes committed by the CIA, even those "authorized" by the Justice Department, are much worse, and deserve to be prosecuted as well.
Not surprisingly, any criminal prosecutions will focus on the low level agents, and let all of the responsible higher-up government officials off the hook. It was very predictable.
Bottom line: No need to go to the Bill of Rights when Congress has made torture a crime (exercising its legitimate constitutional powers, despite bogus Article II objections), and when even Republican-dominated Congresses didn't dare to legalize the torture of terror suspects/witnesses.
The link between the torture statute and the Bill of Rights is that the Busheviks wanted to disregard both in the name of fighting terrorism.
By the way... isn't granting Constitutional rights to non-citizens, kind of like "nation-building"?
Not at all -- it's more like the opposite. Nation building is the act of an imperial power, trying to expand its zone of control.
The Constitution doesn't grant any rights to anyone, citizen or non-citizen. All human beings have inalienable rights, granted by their Creator (or owed them for their humanity, if you prefer.)
The Constitution constructs a form of government that (supposedly) will respect those rights, and spells out in some detail which innate human rights it will not violate.
The Constitution gives limited power to the government, and prohibits the government from exceeding those limits. It makes no exception for non-citizens.
The issue for me isn't whether some cowardly and despicable terrorists were tortured, when they deserved it or worse. It's the fact that some of those tortured may not have been guilty, and that some "law and order" conservatives are willing and ready to defer to the government to determine who deserves to be tortured, and how.
Max, I think we're in accord here. I would be fine seeing these shitlumps prosecuted under federal statute. But even if the defense brings in a couple of the real he-men from this thread to have their nutsacks held down on a running treadmill to prove that it doesn't cause physical pain, and therefore doesn't qualify as torture, the Constitution still covers it as cruel and unusual.
HA,
I hear what you're saying, but like my grandpappy used to say, nulla poena sine lege - no penalty without a law to impose the penalty. If people are to be punished for torture, let it be in accord with a Congressional statute - like the torture statute quoted above.
In and of itself, the Bill of Rights does not enforce itself or impose criminal penalties on those who disregard it.
We're talking about a criminal investigation of alleged torturers, and there needs to be a criminal statute under which the investigation is conducted. The torture statute should do nicely. Could you suggest others?
""conservatives are willing and ready to defer to the government to determine who deserves to be tortured, and how."""
I thought they were against the health care plan? 😉
It's funny that some people think our government is a bunch of baboons that can't run shit, except in dealing with terrorist.
Why don't we offer socialized healthcare to our enemies?
"""These officers have no doubt been around long enough to have witnessed their peers and predecessors get yanked around by this type of goat rope before."""
So beinging investigated and/or prosecuted for posible crimes is goat roping?
"Why don't we offer socialized healthcare to our enemies?"
Hush. Don't give 'em any MORE stupid fucking ideas.
To start - I don't wish to condone torture in any way...
But the black and white way in which some people are approaching this is disingenuous. For people who are normally very capable of seeing gray areas, you seem to think there is none here.
I submit, that when in war for survival, limiting your options is stupid. Now, I don't think this war is for our very survival, but sometimes you have to play the game on your opponents level or risk losing.
To state as a blanket policy we will never stoop to X level, seems overly simplistic for people unwilling to contemplate.
Even in our founding, we did things we consider wrong today - for instance, we started a fight and provoked British soldiers into shooting into a crowd that appeared on purpose to look as if they were going to attack the British. Then when the British retaliated, and snot a couple people - we called it a massacre and used it as propaganda on how evil the Brits truly were.
It was a lie on our part, pure and simple, to gain more support for the revolutionary effort.
Maybe I should just ask a question?
What are you NOT willing to do to ensure you stay free and alive?
Oh - & one more thing - the guy who thinks the jury is just going to be so stupid as to let them go anyway... it's funny how obvious your bias is in this case. You're basically stating they should just go to jail for what they did - IE - you should be able to deny them their rights for them denying others rights, because you are positive what happened.
It's an emotional response, not a rational one.
Mick Kraut and others,
You are supposed to be upset because once we make an exception for torturing known-really-bad-people, you can take it as given that the exception will expand to torturing known-fairly-bad-people, and maybe-really-bad-people, and then to torturing maybe-fairly-bad-people without any clear limits at all until we will torture a few innocent-people just for the hell of it. Don't believe me? Look at the uses to which various "anti-terror" passed after 911 are actually put.
You are supposed to be upset because we're supposed to the good guys, and you don't get to keep that status when you do bad guy things.
You are supposed to be upset because we are alleged to be a nation of laws, but we were acting like we're a nation of men.
You are supposed to be upset, because systematic mistreatment of asymmetric, unconventional enemies will be used to recruit more of them.
You are *also* supposed to be upset because it looks like the groundwork is being laid to go with the "a few bad apples" defense, again.
Ah... the slippery slope argument - works so well for everything.
If we start arresting people for murder, won't we just start arresting everyone for any reason we want?
Sorry, that was probably too snarky, but the emotions of this issue have obviously colored people's abilities to think about all the results of their statements.
I get it - people rightfully hate torture and the thought of it, but when analyzing the event dispassionate logic is much better than passionate beliefs.
g4mth30ry:
Dude, rules lawyering is natural. Folks do it: they stretch definition to get what they want.
So, how do propose to build a system that says "well, maybe a little torture is OK as long as (1) he's evil enough and (2) we are certain enough" that isn't going to let them stretch it here and there? That isn't going to accumulate exceptions until they can nearly always get what they want?
It is a serious question, but keep in mind that we held people in Gitmo for years who were just chumps turned in by their enemies for the reward.
Moreover, we already have a mechanism for sorting our degrees of evilness and degrees of confidence therein: the criminal justice system. Now, we probably can't just throw all these folk willy-nilly into the existing system because they were picked by soldiers in a war zone, so it's not exactly Hill Street Blues. But that means using a relaxed, less precise system.
To decide if it is OK to torture people.
When we know the full blown criminal justice system makes mistakes. Look down-blog for the bit from Texas this week.
You're barking up the wrong tree here. The only thing to do is to stay out of the torture business. No exceptions.
Why didn't we just use the hookers and blow routine. If it can get laws passed and shady business done in DC then why not loosen a few lips while we're at it. I know it's not palatable let terrorists get their party on but seriously if we'd gotten the same info the whole world might not hate us.
EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy -
I don't disagree with a jury trail. They will likely be found innocent and we can move on.
Some people on this board have already decided however that IF a jury found them innocent, it must be because they're stupid.
So, I agree that we need to define torture broadly and make it illegal because of potential ramifications for doing otherwise.
I just don't agree these people automatically deserve jail... though depending upon specific cases I might think that it is warranted.
But there was a case in Iraq where a Colonel on the battlefield. His troops caught an insurgent after an ambush, he put a gun to the guy's head and said tell where the ambush will be tomorrow & it was true and he saved lives.
Should he go to jail? Depends upon your thoughts, but I can certainly see how he wouldn't be convicted when faced with the task of protecting his soldiers versus the fear of an insurgent...
I could be wrong, but the nation would be weaker for putting someone like that in jail.
Sorry about the confusion - my original points were only meant to deal with the illogical rhetorical gymnastics people were using to confirm their presumptions about the Bush administration.
The issue of torture is indeed a complicated one, because emotionally we want to do anything and everything possible to not obnly gather information but to punish those we think have done us harm. This is not only our reraction to terrorists, but also to anyone who commits a crime against us.
But, it is to protect ourselves from over-reacting emotionally that we have rules of law.
Law (at least in theory) is designed to make rational decisions before our emotions take charge.
Too, we are the first to object - to be outraged - when "the enemy" (whoever they might be at the moment) torture - or even treat harshly - our citizens.
I would hope that in the long run, our rationality leads us to mitigating our emotions with law.
My only point is that if you take the Bible straight, as I'm sure many of Reasons readers do, you will see a lot of the Old Testament stuff as absolutely insane. Even some cursory knowledge of Hebrew and doing some mathematics and logic will tell you that you really won't get the full deal by just doing regular skill english reading for those books. In other words, there's more to the books of the Bible than most will ever grasp. I'm not concerned that Mr. Crumb will go to hell or anything crazy like that! It's just that he, like many types of religionists, seems to take it literally, take it straight...the Bible's books were not written by straight laced divinity students in 3 piece suits who white wash religious beliefs as if God made them with clothes on...the Bible's books were written by people with very different mindsets
is good