Chicago: The Second Amendment Doesn't Apply Here
As I discussed in a recent article, the federal 7th Circuit Court of Appeals held that the Second Amendment offers zero protection against the restrictive gun control laws currently in place in Chicago and Oak Park, Illinois. Plaintiff's attorney Alan Gura (who argued and won last year's landmark gun rights decision D.C. v. Heller) quickly filed an appeal (pdf) with the Supreme Court, asking them to hear the Chicago gun case. Now Chicago and Oak Park have filed their own petition (pdf) with the Court. Not surprisingly, they argue that the 2nd Amendment should not apply to state and local governments. They also picked up on the 7th Circuit's controversial argument that federalism would best be served by letting the states disregard the Second Amendment entirely. As conservative Chief Judge Frank Easterbrook wrote for the 7th Circuit, "Federalism is an older and more deeply rooted tradition than is a right to carry any particular kind of weapon." The Chicago brief quotes that statement and adds a flourish of its own:
The States thus have, and should continue to have, the greatest flexibility to create and enforce firearms policy, including the ban of particular types of weapons that have proven to be highly dangerous in a particular location. Indeed, the power to regulate according to the needs of varying local conditions is a hallmark of federalism that is as much a part of the constitutional design as the individual rights provisions of the Bill of Rights…. Firearms regulation is a quintessential issue on which state and local governments can "serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country."
As I previously argued, Gura's petition did a very nice job of refuting this dangerously biased notion of federalism. As he put it, "To claim that of all rights, the Second Amendment must yield to local majoritarian impulses is especially wrong considering that the rampant violation of the right to keep and bear arms was understood to be among the chief evils vitiated by adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment." Indeed, per the 14th Amendment, we don't let the states try "novel experiments" like establishing official religions or banning free speech. It's time for the Second Amendment to receive the same respect as the First.
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We don't allow guns in Big Wiskey.
I don't see that crappy argument convincing any of the five Heller justices. We will get incorporation in the next ruling.
If the Court is actually stupid enough to try to claim that the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to states and localities, this country might face civil war.
I for one will encourage people to start arresting others when they engage in political speech. If my 2nd Amendment rights are ignored, then it's time to start ignoring others 1st Amendment rights.
When are we going to admit this whole "Bill of Rights" thing is getting really old, and move on into the 21st century?
I would expect the ACLU to go absolutely batshit over this attempt to roll back the 14th Amendment and incorporation of the Bill of Rights.
Firearms regulation is a quintessential issue on which state and local governments can "serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country.
You know, its funny. We've been running just this experiment for a number of years now with concealed carry laws, and it turns out they work just fine. I expect Illinois, with its strong commitment to the "laboratory of the states", to adopt their own shall-issue statute the next time the legislature convenes.
I don't see that crappy argument convincing any of the five Heller justices. We will get incorporation in the next ruling.
Pray that none of the Heller justices retires or dies before this case is ruled on. If Scalia is replaced by an Obama nominee, we might as well take a black Sharpie to the National Archives and take care of the 2nd once and for all.
I suspect that the right to bear arms is more deeply rooted than the idea that there should be no state established religion. Would Judge Eastebrook be willing to say that
"Federalism is an older and more deeply rooted tradition than is a right to carry any particular kind of weapon any prohibition on establishment of religion." If not, why not?
Pray that none of the Heller justices retires or dies before this case is ruled on.
Pray that Obama doesn't get a second term with a Dem Senate, or there is no telling how many Justices he might appoint who would regard one or two recent cases on the 2A as being not deeply rooted enough to merit stare decisis.
Interesting. Perhaps federalism could be well served by states and localities voiding the 16th amendment in their jurisdictions too.
They will get my guns when i run out of ammo!
Guns really are a cultural inkblot. Easterbrooke wouldn't write that nonsense about anything but guns. But guns are different in some circles.
Sponge - You're not out of the fight when you run out of ammo. That's what the bayonett & the steel butt on a nice walnut stocked M-1 Garand or M-1A (civilian / semi-auto only M-14 from Springfiled Armory) are for.
The Land of Lincoln is for states rights? What universe did I wake up in? OMG! Next thing you know we're going to get rid of standing armies and the interstate highway system!
You sure the US 14th Amendment wouldn't allow a state to establish a religion? I don't see how that abridges people's privileges or immunities, or deprives them of liberty or property any more than taxation for any other purpose does. If you said it forbids states from interfering with free exercise of religion, rather than just subsidizing one, I'd agree.
However, the chance of any state's establishing a religion, when all of their constitutions currently forbid them to do so, is 0. They'd all disestablished their churches by the time the 14th Amendment came into effect.
For the record, the Latin Kings and Gangster Disciples incorporated the 2nd Amendment 'round these parts a long time ago.
"It's time for the Second Amendment to receive the same respect as the First."
Or pretty much every other part of the Bill of Rights, which has been incorporated to the states. Once Heller is accepted you have to really, really treat the 2nd like some of red-headed step-child to not go for incorporation...I've never heard the "damn good argument" that would justify such treatment.
Robert
You say that you can see how free exercise applies through the 14th but not the establishment clause. Is that because you see the former as an individual right, but not so much with the latter? Interesting. I think the establishment clause does in fact protect an individual right (my right not to be compelled to support a religion).
"For the record, the Latin Kings and Gangster Disciples incorporated the 2nd Amendment 'round these parts a long time ago."
Yup.
"Or pretty much every other part of the Bill of Rights, which has been incorporated to the states. Once Heller is accepted you have to really, really treat the 2nd like some of red-headed step-child to not go for incorporation...I've never heard the "damn good argument" that would justify such treatment."
There isn't one. At a more base level, people see courts' reading the Constitution to find a right to have an abortion, something not mentioned in the document, and then not finding a right to bear arms even though the 2nd Amendment seems pretty clear. It puts lie to the whole judicial system. Thank God Heller was decided the way it was. If it had gone the other way, the Courts would have lost a huge amont of moral credibility with most of the country.
They will get my guns when i run out of ammo!
Spongepaul, FTW!
"the 2nd Amendment seems pretty clear"
WTF?
It basically says "Since militias are really important, every person should be able to bear arms." That makes it at least reasonable to reach the collective right "right to a militia" view there. I think ultimately its the wrong reading, but the whole section before the first comma did ensure that the amendment was pretty un-clear John...Hey, the Founders ruled, but nobody is perfect...
"every person should be able to bear arms." is pretty clear to most people. It is only "unclear" to people who are doing intellectual gymnastics to try to deny what it obviously says.
Compare it to the First Amendment's speech clause, which is pretty clear. Imagine if it had read "Since debate in the newspapers of the day is crucial to democracy, Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech." If someone read that as only prohibiting the speech of newspapers and their equivalents it might be wrong, but it would not be clearly so...
Couldn't California (or any state, for that matter) use the same logic regarding prohibition of marijuana? Federalism is definitely older than prohibition.
While I fully support Second Amendment rights, I have to agree with MNG that the Founding Fathers must've drunk a little too much Applejack before drafting that one.
MNG,
It was never a strong argument that it was a "collective right". No less a liberal than Larry Tribe admited as much long before Heller. It is just not a tenable agrument to claim that it means that people in the National Guard can own weapons. Even if it were, it certainly woudn't be the most obvious reading of it. It is a much bigger leap to say that "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." means that there is a right to privacy and aborition. That it is to say "the right to keep arms shall not be infringed" means you can't take my arms.
"Since debate in the newspapers of the day is crucial to democracy, Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech." If someone read that as only prohibiting the speech of newspapers and their equivalents it might be wrong, but it would not be clearly so..."
Matter of opinion I guess. But it seems to be a pretty convoluted reading of that to claim that it only applies to newspapers.
It seems you are ignoring the first part of the amendment John. It makes it at least reasonable that what this amendment is all about is state defense, militias, and that the part about the people bearing arms is in reference to that (its important in that thats what militias were made up of back then).
My point MNG is not that it is the most obvious thing in the document. It is that it is more obvious than other rights courts' have found. I think there would have been a profound sense of betrayal among a lot of people if the same court that found a right to abortion failed to find a right to bear arms. The conclusion would have been that the Constitution doesn't mean anything except what they say it does. That would have been very bad.
"it seems to be a pretty convoluted reading of that to claim that it only applies to newspapers."
Really? The "Since debate in the newspapers of the day is crucial to democracy" part seems to me to say that the sentence is all about newspapers first, then speech second...It at least strikes me as reasonble there.
In fact, the best reason to see the 2nd as granting an individual right is to follow the usual liberal practice of reading rights broadly...
John
I agree and disagree. There is more evidence to see an individual right to bear arms than an abortion right, because there is no explicit language that suggests an abortion right at all. But since the 2nd could be read reasonably either way, I don't think Heller going the other way would have been such a grave indictment of the court...A grave indictment is when they plainly read text contrary to what it says.
"I don't think Heller going the other way would have been such a grave indictment of the court...A grave indictment is when they plainly read text contrary to what it says."
That is because you don't feel that strongly about the 2nd Amendment. A lot of people look at it differently. Heller going the other way would have created a bigger festering wound in this country than Roe did.
John
I feel pretty strongly about it, it's often my vote decider in Democratic primaries. The reason I would not find it so grave is because, as I said, such a reading is at least reasonable.
But yes, as an empirical matter people would have been mighty pissed had it gone the other way (of course most gun supporters I know were pretty pessimistic and expected it to go that way).
Just because you feel strongly about something doesn't mean you would be mad if the SCOTUS did not find a right to that something in the US Constitution...I feel incredibly strongly that drugs should be legalized, but I admit any SCOTUS who "found" a right to possess drugs in that way would be crazy, lawlessly activist...
I admit any SCOTUS who "found" a right to possess drugs in that way would be crazy, lawlessly activist...
Bullshit. Seems to me the 10th amendment covers it.
Sigh.
and
In the case of the second amendment, the dependent clause is " A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state". You'll note that that does not form a sentence. It does not comprise a complete though in and of itself. Yes, you could fix it. You could make it "A well regulated militia is necessary to the free state." But they didn't use the plain verb "to be". You have to assume they did that on purpose.
The independent clause is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed", which is a complete thought.
Further, there is nothing in the subordinate clause to indicate that it restricts of modifies the independent clause. It is just not there. Ergo, it exists to explain why "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
Reading this any other way is an exercise in straining at flies.
If it had gone the other way, the Courts would have lost a huge amount of moral credibility with most of the country.
They would likely have lost more than that. Many members of the government admit to being illiterates, but ignoring the 2nd Amendment is a step too far.
The government often ignores that powers not granted to the federal gov't are granted to the states. Now that we have an argument about a power that is granted to the federal gov't (the authority to defend the right to bear arms) the feds wont bite. WTF?
If a city (I don't know about Chicago specifically because Cook Country is a haven for libs in the Midwest) were to violate any other Constitutional right such as the right to Free Speech or the right protecting us against Illegal Search & Seizure, the Supreme Court would have a shit-fit.
"Just because you feel strongly about something doesn't mean you would be mad if the SCOTUS did not find a right to that something in the US Constitution...I feel incredibly strongly that drugs should be legalized, but I admit any SCOTUS who "found" a right to possess drugs in that way would be crazy, lawlessly activist..."
If there was an amendment to the Constitution that said "the people's right to have autonomy over their own bodies and what goes into them shall not be infringed" you would have been pissed. Your analogy doesn't work because there is nothing in the constitution that specifically speaks to drugs.
"A Militia" is the armed populace. If they meant state militias, and only state militias, they would have said so.
Turning militia into state militia into the National Guard means the 2nd allows the govt to have an army reserve. Who would bother passing _that_ amendment?
Illinois and guns. LoL
Nothing like needing a registration card to buy ammunition. The entire state is run by thugs in Chicago.
MNG, you are wrong. EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy beat me to it, but anyone with a basic understanding of English grammar can see it.
Now, you can claim that most Americans, government employees, Supreme Court judges, people with advanced degrees don't have a basic understanding of English grammar, and I would likely agree with you, but that doesn't make you any less wrong.
JB,
They can see what it means, they just don't want to. As I said above, the 2nd Amendment is only unclear if you are doing mental gymnastics to try and make it mean something other than what it obviously says.
The term "collective right" doesn't even make sense. And it's telling that the proponents of that oxymoronic clusterfuck only apply it to the right to keep and bear arms, something they despise beyond measure.
But guns are different in some circles.
Oh Sugarfree, please please please?
MNG, you are wrong. EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy beat me to it, but anyone with a basic understanding of English grammar can see it.
In law, prefatory clauses fuck everything up, because of the principle of surplusage (nothing written is without meaning). Mentioning the militias does complicate "straightforward interpretation", no matter how superior you believe your English parsing skills to be or how self-evident you believe the functions of the relative clauses are.
Mentioning the militias does complicate "straightforward interpretation",
Why, other than becuase you say so? JB seems to give a very compelling argument as to why the clause doesn't create a problem. You don't give a response other than to say "this is law so it must be abiguous".
we don't let the states try "novel experiments" like establishing official religions or banning free speech.
Just towns.
Chicago Democrats don't believe in a living constitution, they believe only in a dead one.
I don't know about Chicago specifically because Cook Country is a haven for libs in the Midwest
No, it is a Democratic stronghold. There is a heck of a difference.
"there is nothing in the subordinate clause to indicate that it restricts of modifies the independent clause"
Let's assume it is a subordinate clause, you don't think its at least reasonable to see it as restricting "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" to the militias in that clause? WTF?
Dang...I wish I was at home so I could make the full quote.
Madison (I think) said in one of the Federalist Papers or in a letter of the time (I found the quote in "The Debate on the Constitution - a collection of Federalist, anti-Federalist speeches, articles and letters from Ratification" - a great 2 volume set) that it was perfectly natural to have a general phrase (e.g. militas) followed by a specific meaning.
A well regulated milita...blah, blah, blah is the general phrase, while the 'right of the people to keep and bear arms' is the specific.
In a similar vein, Article 1, Section 8 goes on about the general powers of Congress, then specifically states what those are limited to the specifically enumerated ones therein listed(although that abortion of a Supreme Court of the 30's sure boned that one up).
Big Muddy nails it, btw.
Besides, to take the collective approach, one has to take the tortured position that "the people" mentioned in the 2nd are somehow different than "the people" mentioned through out the rest of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Oh - and the National Guard is NOT "the milita". It's a reserve component of the United States Army created by an act of Congress. It's easy to find this - I leave it as a library exercise to those who doubt it. If a simple engineer like me can find it in the books of United States Code at the Seattle Public Library, any one can.
"The Milita" is also defined in code as all able bodied men from 18 to 45 (plus a few others, like female officers of the National Guard). This is important as a Supreme Court decision in 1917 said that the draft was merely the method by which Congress is exercising it's (specifically enumerated) power to "organize, arm and discipline" the Milita.
"Federalism is an older and more deeply rooted tradition than is a right to carry any particular kind of weapon."
Given that we were keeping and bearing arms long before any government got big enough to have subunits to practice federalism, I think his timeline needs overhauling.
Indeed, the power to regulate according to the needs of varying local conditions is a hallmark of federalism that is as much a part of the constitutional design as the individual rights provisions of the Bill of Rights....
"Right up until we can pass a federal ban on assault weapons and close the gun show loophole and..."
Firearms regulation is a quintessential issue on which state and local governments can "serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country.
"But the reason that the Chicago handgun ban still isn't working after twenty years is because other states have lax gun laws."
"Under longstanding linguistic
principles that were well understood and
recognized at the time the Second Amendment was adopted, the "well regulated Militia" clause necessarily adds meaning to the "keep and bear Arms" clause by furnishing the reason for the latter's existence. The first clause is what linguists call an "absolute construction" or "absolute clause." It functions by melding the sentence "A well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State" together with the sentence "The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed" to express this thought: "Because a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." On its face, the language of the Amendment tells us that the reason why the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed is because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free State. The purpose of the Second Amendment, therefore, is to perpetuate "a well regulated Militia.""
From an amicus in Heller by three professors of linguistics which can be found here:
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/07-290_amicus_linguists1.pdf
Cook county hits the judicial hell hole list every other year. Saint Louis is on its way to making the list.
Why, other than because you say so? JB seems to give a very compelling argument as to why the clause doesn't create a problem. You don't give a response other than to say "this is law so it must be ambiguous".
I did also point out *why* because it is law it is ambiguous. Or maybe you didn't read that part. If the militia clause is inactive and does not in any way modify the second clause, why do you think the founders dropped it in there? For color? For flavor? Because they like how the word 'militia' looks on paper?
Come on, John. It's one thing to disagree with an interpretation. It turns out that in this case I actually agree with your interpretation of the amendment. But it is another thing entirely to claim that the text is so straightforward that everyone who interprets it differently is inherently stupid or deficient at interpreting English. They are *reasonable disagreements*.
All anyone has to do to realize exactly what was meant by the second amendment is read the arguments and suggestions from the people who wrote it. It's pretty hard to argue that it wasn't meant to apply to every person in every state at every time. Jefferson and Henry have some of the best arguments and quotes.
independent clause
A group of words made up of a subject and a predicate. An independent clause (unlike a dependent clause) can stand alone as a sentence.
MNG, it doesn't matter what you put in front of it. You might want to take your graduate degree and get a refund and see if you can take 5th grade grammar again.
The 2nd Amendment could say "In order to piss off liberals and make their vaginas bleed, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" and it wouldn't change a thing.
In order to piss off liberals and make their vaginas bleed, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed
I like that wording better.
-jcr
The purpose of the Second Amendment, therefore, is to perpetuate "a well regulated Militia.""
It seems that your confusion stems from your misunderstanding of what a "well regulated militia" is.
In the language of the time, "well regulated" meant competent and capable of self-defense. "Militia" meant any men old enough to bear arms.
-jcr
The other hilarious thing is this notion that anyone involved in the bill of rights actually held militias in any sort of regard as a military force and therefore requiring them to be armed. Almost everyone in the military or who served couldn't stand the militia men compared to the regular army soldiers. The romantic notion of valiant farmers fighting is more myth than anything. Hell even Washington wrote more than one time about his disdain for militias and their men.
I'd like to see someone come up with any quote or document listing the argument that they make against the second being for all from any one of the people who was present for its creation. Hell I'll even take an argument from the writings involved with colonial (state) constitutions. Many of those had much simpler "2nd" clauses.
Or how about the history of common law backing the right to bear arms up to that point? Couple that with a shit ton of lawyers writing the document and the attempted disarmament of the colonies by the British and the local governors and what in the hell do you think they meant?
hmm - excellent point on militias. notorious for their ability to find shiny baubles before finding the battlefield - if they even made it there because of all the booze they drank on the way.
The purpose of the Second Amendment, therefore, is to perpetuate "a well regulated Militia."
Which was meant to mean, as jcr mentioned, a body entirely separate from the U.S. Armed Forces. Just in case the U.S. ever tries to take Illinois' water, for instance, the residents of Chicago need to have arms in order to defend it. It's necessary to the security of a free State.
hmmm
Iirc Stevens dissent in Heller is full of what you ask for. Like I said, I ultimately found Scalia's majority more compelling, but it's not like the other side didn't have a reasonable position, both textually and in terms of historical evidence. The founders just were not very clear here.
"Madison's original draft of the Second Amendment used a formulation of the "well regulated Militia" absolute construction similar to the one passed by Congress: "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person." 1 Annals of Cong. 451 (Joseph Gales ed., 1790) (emphasis added)."
From the amicus brief cited above.
The operative question is: Is the right to "keep and bear" a fundamental individual right or not? If it isn't, and a "lawful government" can take it away when they find it convenient, then it isn't really a "right" at all per Jefferson's "self evident" language in the Declaration of Independence. If it is one of Jefferson's "inalienable rights" a "lawful government" becomes an "unlawful government" and is subject to replacement if it attempts to take the right away. Imagine for a moment the response to an attempt by Alabama to bring back slavery based on their local needs and "states rights"
Stevens decent was full of interpretation. Which is the same thing he wants for the 2nd. I'll read it again, but if I remember correctly nowhere did he muster a quote or historic evidence from anyone involved that outright saw the statement as limiting to, or from, anyone. The historic documents and letters all point to the belief that everyone gets a gun. Madison was the wishy washiest, some like Jefferson and Henry were quite blunt in their assertion.
Even common law at the time dictated a right to self defense equal to that of the ability of the governing to do harm to you. The idea was not novel at all and was present in several colonial charters and later state constitutions.
One side of the argument requires interpretation and one does not.
hmm --
What makes those quotes from Jefferson and Henry less useful than they otherwise would be is that they are the words of members of the then-minority party.
Everyone forgets that. It would be like saying that we should take take Strom Thurmond's view of the intent of the Civil Rights Act as dispositive.
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person."
That's even more evidence that is an explicit individual right. Do you see the semi-colon (more grammar)? Madison here is saying that the best security is a free people being armed and then assembled instead of a standing army.
There is only confusion for those who want to be confused. These words are clear for anyone who made it past 5th grade: the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
"These words are clear for anyone who made it past 5th grade"
That quote is from three college linguistics professors, well past the 5th grade JB...Besides, one would think even a 5th grader would see the clause before what you keep quoting, which seems to define the Amendment's purpose (the right to bear arms is important and not to be infringed because well regulated militias are necessary to the security of a free state).
hmmmm
Lmnop makes a good point, you've got the wrong Founders on your side! Also, Stevens' dissent is chock full o' history:
http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/pdf/07-290P.ZD
Also, Stevens' dissent is chock full o' history:
"In 1934, Congress enacted the National Firearms Act,
the first major federal firearms law.[1] Upholding a conviction
under that Act, this Court held..."
Epic fucking fail. This is history a la Bellesiles and the 9th Circus. The case [Miller] reached SCotUS via direct appeal of the demurrer of the indictment. There had been no trial, let alone a conviction.
Chock full o' history my ass.
These words are clear for anyone who made it past 5th grade: the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
I note also, that the language acknowledges the right as pre-existing. It does not presume to grant it.
-jcr
Mason (the reason for the bill of rights) and Hamilton both have quotes and documents saying similar things. Many federalists made short sighted arguments for not needing a bill of rights all together. The party in power really has little bearing on the intent. It's like saying the bill that made it through congress (today isn't the best example) is clearly to be interpreted by the party in power.
Both federalist and antifederalist made arguments and statements for the individual right. The most influential on both sides used language, usually in the form of fear of government, to support an individual right.
Stevens argument is completely based on an omission of an outright clause of the individual. He notes the problem with his conclusion in his notes, although I don't think he meant to. He argues the courts going from word to word without a greater context is one of, if not the main reason they are wrong in their decision. The problem with that is it is just what he is doing, removing the context and grammar. Add to that his other argument is based on the absence of language present in almost every other similar state level document and all he has is a vague interpretation of what might have been meant.
I realized why I probably didn't read most of his dissent.
His fundamental inability to understand what a fucking right is.
His entire argument is based on the texts of state suggestions and and omissions in comparison to the adopted form. The underlying theory and texts involved with protection from government and standing armies is superficially touched on as if to appease any argument using such quotes. It's not exactly a slam dunk dissent. A fair portion of it is based on bullshit precedent as well. The historic part is slim and not a solid argument.
That quote is from three college linguistics professors...
Which hurts your case. College professors are known for being morons.
Again the way the sentence is structured it doesn't matter what comes before it. It could say: "Because MNG will be confused, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
People who oppose the 2nd also oppose the 1st, 5th, 8th, and especially the 13th.
JB
Sigh. It does matter what comes before it as it indicates the purpose of the amendment. In your example the purpose is to keep me confused, and to do that the right of the people to bear arms should not be infringed. But in the actual amendment the purpose is to keep a well regulated militia. This is important because the right of the people to bear arms is important BECAUSE well regulated militias are necessary. Therefore it's reasonable to hold that the "right of the people to bear arms" relates only to the bearing of arms FOR militia service.
hmmm
In his dissent Stevens takes the 2nd clause by clause. He takes the first clause and notes that its priority in the amendment indicates it states the overall purpose of the amendment, he then notes its similarity of many state constitution provisions of the time (which were clearly about the importance of militias vs. standing armies), and its crucial differences from others (which explicitly mentioned a right to arms for hunting or self defence). Later he references historical reasons to think that the "bear arms" language was understood at the time to refer to military service. Then in Sec. II of his opinion he discusses the historical concern of the Founders of standing armies and their preference for militias. He notes several proposals from state ratifying conventions on the 2nd which seem to support the idea that it is all about militias. He draws on Madison's earlier drafts (it contained a conscientous objector clause) He then, in Sec. III discusses Blackstone's discussion of the right to bear arms, the English Bill of Rights, post-enactment commentary and post-Civil War legislation. How you can describe all of that historic discussion as "slim" is beyond me...Let's just say I'd hate to be set up on a date with a woman you described as "slim."
Therefore it's reasonable to hold that the "right of the people to bear arms" relates only to the bearing of arms FOR militia service.
Riddle me this. How do you have a well regulated militia WITHOUT first having a generally armed citizenry.
Stevens dissent is crap. He can't even get the facts right on the single most significant 2nd Amdt case the Court had previously ruled on. (And that ruling was something of a mystery wrapped inside an enigma). Why should I give ANY consideration to the rest of it? [Yes I know, it is really the work of his clerks, but HIS name goes on it just the same.]
"How do you have a well regulated militia WITHOUT first having a generally armed citizenry."
I guess you have National Guards or something. They are well regulated militias. And the people's right to bear arms in a NG unit is pretty un-infringed...
"Why should I give ANY consideration to the rest of it?"
Because like any long opinion it has numerous arguments and points of evidence, and you can't reject them all by pointing out that one is in error...
Look, I oppose gun control measures. I think that morally people have a right to defend themselves, and that right includes the right to arm oneself for one's defense. I simply say that the Founder's gave us, in the 2nd, a very poor tool to ensure that right, because there are reasons to read it as either granting a collective or individual right.
In his dissent Stevens takes the 2nd clause by clause.
so you agree that a prefatory clause is just that? Because Stevens dissent hinges on this not being true1, which is why he dissects down to the word in order to make his points. Tricky little thing that grammar can be.
You don't have to paraphrase the dissent for me. I reread it. Most of the language involving standing armies dealt with citizenry and the fear of a standing army. The idea being that a militia or armed citizenry were both preferred to a standing army. The general theme was a fear of exactly what we currently have.
The bear arms sentence or two also ignores the use of that language in at least 2 other constitutions or statements of rights that referred to hunting and at least one self defense. This part made it particularly clear that he was being selective in his recognizing the use of phrases.
Again you assume the preference for a militia, which you might want to look into the period definition for, means just a militia. The militia statement was more than once followed by the word citizen and body of citizens. At this point in time it was almost a given.
He draws on a lot of selective phrases and out of context comparison, both early drafts and suggested amendments from the state conventions.
The argument is slim. most of it is in a very narrow context, ignores obvious glaring missuses of context and even ignores previous precedent and common law. All to arrive at the argument that today's modern precedent is superior. His entire argument relies on dissecting word for word, ignoring grammar, questionable legal context of previous precedent, and out of context arguments for amendments to the 2nd. It's a pretty pathetic attempt at justifying the status quo.
The flip side of the argument is grammatically correct, has a body of direct in context support. Where are the clauses that deny citizens the ability to bear arms. If the belief is that only a certain group can bear arms then why was the idea of baring others not floated? If we are going to play the magical missing language argument lets see if Stevens theory holds up. Show me suggested amendments, letters, discussions, napkin notes, hell anything suggesting that people should not individually be allowed to bear arms. That was discussed during the creation of the 2nd.
I simply say that the Founder's gave us, in the 2nd, a very poor tool to ensure that right, because there are reasons to read it as either granting a collective or individual right.
The tool isn't that poor. Like anything else created by committee it is a mixture of opinion to try and appease as many as possible. The fact most amendments in the bill of rights are so short is a first hint at understanding the need to get everyone to sign on. The tragedy is the years of judicial activism creating precedent contrary to the spirit of the law.
I guess you have National Guards or something.
Jaysus, that's lame even for you. The NG didn't exist for the first 100 years of the Republic. And, unlike the militia (as discussed in Miller), the NG is completely armed BY THE GOVT.
Hint: read up on the notion of a "select militia" - it's the dog on the porch that you keep trying to hunt.
Because like any long opinion it has numerous arguments and points of evidence, and you can't reject them all by pointing out that one is in error...
Simple errors do not build credibility in complex arguments. Although you saying this does make me believe you really are a liberal/progressive and all that matters is getting at the result you want.
Try this on for size:
"Thai food being extremely delicious, the right of the people to run ethnic restaurants, shall not be infringed."
Does this mean I only intend to protect Thai restaurants, and not Hungarian or Greek? Does "the people" only refer to those who run Thai restaurants?
Obviously none of the Constitution applies to Chicago - especially the 13th amendment. That's why the political massa's of Chicago still have so many slaves of all races.
MNG, you are still having problems with reading comprehension. The right is recognized by the 2nd amendment. It doesn't matter what the dependent clause says.
Honestly, you should go back to elementary school. You keep squawking 'it matters', but it doesn't. That is the whole point of an independent clause. It stands alone. The rest is an explanation.
I expect Illinois, with its strong commitment to the "laboratory of the states", to adopt their own shall-issue statute the next time the legislature convenes.
RC, is that tongue-in-cheek, or are you serious? I grew up in Chicago, but have not lived there for many years so I am completely out of touch with Illinois politics. Illinois (well, at least Chicago and burbs) seems to be about as anti-2A as is possible, hence to expect the legislature to pass a shall-issue statute surprises me. The Illinois constitution garantees the right to bear arms pretty clearly of course, but no Chicago politician would ever let a little thing like the written law prevent him from enforcing his will.
SECTION 22. RIGHT TO ARMS
Subject only to the police power, the right of the
individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed.
(Source: Illinois Constitution.)
I just thought it would be interesting to see the wording in the Illinois constitution with respect to arms. Seems pretty clear to me, yet Chicago ignores it.
It's about time to revolt. Do not vote for any incumbent in the next election. There oath to the constitution means nothing.
The second amendment, as was the bill of rights, was submitted to all the states for ratification which it subsequently was. There is no mention of "Congress" or the "Federal government" being the only authorities which shall not "infringe" the right to keep and bear arms.
The constitution is federal law to which all states have agreed to abide. The right to keep and bear arms, the right of the PEOPLE shall not be infringed.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
I don't see a well regulated militia in Chicago, so it CLEARLY doesn't apply.