Crime

Obama Assassination Plot Foiled

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Way more to explain about this story than is contained in this Reuters squib in Google News headlines right now, to be sure (like under what circumstances these men were "found" and how the BATF is so sure of what their long-term intentions were, and if they in fact were guilty of any actual criminal actions beyond their alleged wanting, planning, and plotting to do harm), but let the speculation begin:

Law enforcement arrested two men in Tennessee who had plans to rob a gun dealer to shoot Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama and "as many non-Caucasians" as possible, an official said on Monday.

An official from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said police found the men in the Jackson, Tennessee area with a number of guns, including a sawed-off shotgun, in their car.

"They wanted to go to a place where they could shoot as many non-Caucasian as they could," the official said, noting that the men first planned to rob a gun dealer. "They also had a plot to assassinate Sen. Obama."

Buckle up, folks, the ride's getting wilder.

UPDATE: AP via Breitbart has both less and more details: exactly 102 black people were supposedly to be shot or decapitated had this BATF-foiled plot been carried out.

UPDATE II: And this BATF press release actually gives some story to the story. I can only assume this release, found by me at 3:10 pm pacific, was not available to Reuters when they wrote, or else they deliberately chose to leach the story of all relevant facts and details. To quote:

Daniel Cowart, 20, of Bells, Tennessee and Paul Schlesselman, 18, of West Helena, Arkansas were charged in a federal complaint, Friday, Oct. 24, 2008….The Criminal Complaint charges Cowart and Schlesselman with the illegal possession of a sawed off shotgun, conspiracy to rob a federal firearms licensee, and making threats against a major candidate for the office of president.
……….
According to the complaint, approximately one month ago, Cowart and Schlesselman met via the internet through a mutual friend and both claim to have very strong beliefs regarding "White Power" and "Skinhead" philosophy. Cowart and Schlesselman began discussing going on a "killing spree." The complaint further alleges that Cowart and Schlesselman discussed robbing a gun shop (federal firearms licensee) in order to gather weapons and ammunition. The complaint notes the defendants were in possession of a sawed off shotgun.

On Oct. 20, 2008, Cowart allegedly traveled from Tennessee to Arkansas to pick up Schlesselman in order to carry out their plan. The complaint states that at this time, the defendants further discussed their killing spree to include targeting a predominately African American school and to continue their spree until their final act of violence,which would be to attempt to assassinate Presidential Candidate Barack Obama.

………

…after soliciting a friend to drive their car between 11 p.m. on Oc. 21, 2008, and 2 a.m. on Oct. 22, 2008, the defendantsmade plans to rob a house, but were diverted when they arrived and observed a dog and two cars at the location….

The defendants were arrested on Oct. 22, 2008, by the Crockett County Sheriff's Office. "Once we arrested the defendants and suspected they had violated federal law, we immediately contacted federal authorities," said Sheriff Troy Klyce of Crockett County.

The complaint sounds like it asserts all sorts of things that the authorities wouldn't necessarily know if the first time these morons crossed the paths of police eyes was at this October 22 arrest, unless the accused just began dropping dimes like they were pennies on each other. Or perhaps that "mutual friend" was a federal informant? The two had their initial court appearance today, and will be back for a detention hearing in Memphis on Thursday.

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  1. As someone who has visited many a gun shop, I’d say trying to rob one would be a stupendously bad idea.

  2. Good thing, too. If he had actually been assassinated, that would have made his cause bulletproof (no pun intended). Assassinating a president (or presidential candidate) never stopped their agenda.

    And, much as I dislike the man, murder is still wrong.

  3. That sounds like a Bill Ayers-intelligence-level plot.

    Why on earth would you include robbing a gun shoppe in this plan? You only need one gun to do what you’re intending.

  4. exactly 102 black people were supposedly to be shot or decapitated had this BATF-foiled plot been carried out

    Oh, I get it. Obama is from Chicago, and it’s been 102 years since the Cubs and White Sox played each other in the World Series.

  5. As someone who has visited many a gun shop, I’d say trying to rob one would be a stupendously bad idea.

    Hmmmm…

    Seems like gun shops have a higher than average robbery rate compared to other types of stores, iirc.

    Anyone got stats?

    LarryA?

  6. “Oh, I get it. Obama is from Chicago, and it’s been 102 years since the Cubs and White Sox played each other in the World Series.”

    Maybe these guys are just disgruntled Cub fans wanting revenge for the hitless wonder whitesox?

  7. sounds like a coupla dumbshit racist dudes drunk on Bud Lite devising this “master plan”… all bark, no bite.

  8. Neu Mejican,
    I wouldn’t be surprised. Guns are quite valuable. At least a good one is.

  9. Other than providing a table for another round of race card playing or perhaps a round of tu quoque, I’m having trouble understanding why this is here. The two would probably have never succeeded at anything, and they were stopped at the very early stages of that.

    Meanwhile, if you haven’t seen it already, see BHO’s plan for indoctrinating kids under 12 years old in order to get them to influence their parents’ political decisions. Perhaps Reason should consider highlighting that instead, unless they’re looking forward to Socialist Realism coming back in vogue.

  10. Neu — might be more robberies of gun shops, but I suspect might also be far more dead perps attempting to rob them than anywhere else. Presumably, the owner of a gun shop, and all the other patrons, know how to shoot back.

    Just because it happens a lot doesn’t mean it’s a smart thing to do.

  11. Prolefeed,

    Just because it happens a lot doesn’t mean it’s a smart thing to do.

    This has a strange echo…like something you would hear in a debate about market forces…

    Seems like it is just another risk/benefit analysis. If you see enough benefit out of getting both the money and the guns, it may be a smart risk to take.

    Yadda yadda…

  12. Anybody got the secret decoder ring for the racist meaning of the numbers 88 and 14?

    Does anyone else see this as a desperate attempt by ATF to curry favor with an incoming President?

  13. If you see enough benefit out of getting both the money and the guns, it may be a smart risk to take.

    If you want money, go to a convenience store, or a bank or just about any place not filled with heavily armed folks wishing they could shoot something.

  14. Does anyone else see this as a desperate attempt by ATF to curry favor with an incoming President?

    [soothing voice]

    No. No one else sees that…

    [backs away slowly toward nearest exit]

  15. How long before the loons like Olbermann try to equate two booger-eatin’ morons with the entire Conservative movement, the Republican party and talk radion, all in one giant brush stroke?

  16. Anybody got the secret decoder ring for the racist meaning of the numbers 88 and 14

    … take your pick…

  17. If you want money, go to a convenience store, or a bank or just about any place not filled with heavily armed folks wishing they could shoot something.

    So those stories about gun owners are true?

    As for “place filled with heavily armed folks wishing they could shoot something” that describes many convenience stores in Albuquerque I have been to…

    ;^)

  18. Neu,
    Normal market models don’t apply as well to the criminal element, because they also tend to be really stupid.

  19. “They wanted to go to a place where they could shoot as many non-Caucasian as they could”

    Since the opportunity do so so will never be offered by their government.

  20. economist,

    Agreed. Normal market models do tend to be really stupid.

    ;^)

  21. Anybody got the secret decoder ring for the racist meaning of the numbers 88 and 14?

    Not so secret. Just Google around.

    88 is a not-so-clever substitution cipher for HH, which apparently stands for “Heil Hitler”.

    14, and I know this one from having watched The West Wing of all fucking things, is a reference to a slogan of 14 words.

  22. I had a gun to my head.

  23. TallDave? TallDave? Hello, TallDave?

  24. Now just imagine if I were the Democratic equivalent of TallDave and the like (go back to the Ashley Todd thread to see), oh the things I could say about this!

    Damn my integrity.

  25. Sorry, should have been more specific: The criminal element tends to be really stupid.

    Grammar Nazis.

  26. MNG,

    Talldave can’t take your call right now.
    He is otherwise detained.

  27. MNG,
    I’ve always regarded you as the Democratic of TallDave. It could be worse, though. You could have been the Democratic equivalent of Neil, or Dondero, or Lonewacko.

  28. economist…

    Nazis is plural…

    You probably meant to write “Grammar Nazi”

    ;^)

    Yes, the criminal element tends to be really stupid…and the normal market models have a hard time accounting for their behavior, making the statement true no matter how one interprets it…

  29. I bet the last meeting went like this.

    ATF undercover agent at skinhead meeting:
    come on guys lets rob a gun store and kill a bunch of blacks(paraphrased). I have a friend who will give us $200 and a new pickup truck if we can pull this off. Raise your hand if your in.

    fred (guy raises hand): why would we rob a gun store? I already have a few guns.

    ATF undercover agent at skinhead meeting: ok so your in. Come on who else is gonna come with us and save our country? bubba, here is your $200

  30. Nope, I meant “Nazis”, plural. I was arguing with the voices in my head.

  31. Disclaimer, I have no idea what, if anything these guys are guilty of. I aam making no pronouncements about their guilt or innocence.

    That said,
    Get used to this shit folks. Racist wingnuts are likely going* to be rounded up, their constitutional rights violated,** and I’m going to have to protest what’s happening to these shitstain licking, mouth breathing, troglodyte miscreants.

    * I fervently hope I’m wrong about this. I don’t think I am.

    ** GWB has blazed that trail. They’ll be classified as domestic terrorists.

  32. JSD,
    How were their constitutional rights violated? I’m not saying they weren’t, I’d just like an example.

  33. I’ll bet the ATF is just trying to goose Obama’s popularity a bit. They had pretty good times under the last Democratic president.

  34. I’m no fan of the ATF, but oculd someone please tell me what they did IN THIS CASE which was so bad?

  35. JohnL, meet Juris Imprudent, Juris, meet JohnL.

    economist…

    Oh, the voices…got it.

    Stupid voices.

  36. The voices aren’t so bad. The Underpants Gnomes are the real problem.

  37. Where is old juris, anyway?

  38. Gun shop burglaries seem to be common.
    Armed robberies? Not so much.
    Every large gun shop I’ve been in has all employees armed to the teeth.I suspect practicing killing other armed folk is one of their favorite hobbies.

  39. LoneWacko wrote:

    I’m having trouble understanding

    Truer words were never spoken. Er, written.

  40. SIV,

    I suspect practicing killing other armed folk is one of their favorite hobbies.

    Again, so the stories about gun owners are true?

    Itchy fingers just waiting to find someone to put a cap in, the man went back to the gun shop to gaze at the beautiful cases full of gleaming machines of death.

    One day, he said, one day someone will try something, and then I’ll shine. I’ll show them.

    “What, you talking to me?”

  41. economist,

    The Underpants Gnomes are the real problem.

    Commando.
    No home, no problem.
    No?

  42. How were their constitutional rights violated? I’m not saying they weren’t, I’d just like an example.

    I didn’t write or mean to imply that in this case constitutional right were violated. See the disclaimer that is the first sentence in my post. I merely predicted future events. I have a quality crystal ball (300 1981 dollars) and a knack for predicting political trends.

    In January 2010, throw this prediction in my face if I’m wrong. Unlike the fucktard cop who was the subject of an earlier thread, I’m man enough to admit errors.

  43. …and making threats against a major candidate for the office of president.

    So, is it OK if it’s just a minor candidate for the office of President?

  44. J sub D,
    Point taken. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

    Mike Laursen,
    Duh. No one cares if Bob Barr gets a death threat.

  45. There are also reports that in southern Ohio someone spray painted the name of a river on some Obama signs. Don’t these people realize this kind of tactic only makes it MORE likely that the man will be elected? I am surprised the heads of racist organizations didn’t send out a memo to their members that said something like “OK, I know you all hate Obama but until the election is over we need to keep it cool OK? So until the election is over don’t fly your confederate flag, don’t wear your swastika T-Shirt and for God’s sake don’t deface any Obama signs with the name of a river. OK, these things will only make it more likely that this man will be elected. You need to understand that.” But, then again, racists are idiots so they may not be sophisticated enough to realize the impact those tactics have on normal people.

  46. “MNG,
    I’ve always regarded you as the Democratic of TallDave.”

    Oh, Ok, then, I’ll try to live up to that…

    “Law enforcement arrested two men in Tennessee who had plans to rob a gun dealer to shoot Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama and “as many non-Caucasians” as possible”

    Looks like the GOP just lost two votes in TN!

  47. This kind of thing will obviously supress the Klan voting bloc of the GOP perhaps costing McCain the election and providing a filibuster proof majority for the Dems…

    Gee, this is kinda fun in a dirty sorta way…

  48. Try this, MNG.

    Well if McCain/Palin is elected we can look forward to four years of noose-wielding lynch mob supporters.

  49. I’m no fan of the ATF, but oculd someone please tell me what they did IN THIS CASE which was so bad?

    Oh, nothing all that bad. Probably not all that much either. These two goobers don’t sound like they could find the state line let alone sneak past a vanguard of Secret Service. I’m guessing, and only guessing, that they were about as credible a threat as lonewhacko – of course that’s just my opinion and I could be wrong.

  50. That was supposed to be with “Liberal TallDave” tags.

  51. Neu Mejican,

    Itchy fingers just waiting to find someone to put a cap in, the man went back to the gun shop to gaze at the beautiful cases full of gleaming machines of death.

    One day, he said, one day someone will try something, and then I’ll shine. I’ll show them.

    Take’s one to know one, eh NM?

    /I keed . . .

  52. Actually I think NM is calling SIV on his comments which while intended to make gun shop employees seem “cooler” actually encourages the stereotype about them that liberals throw all the time.

  53. Matthew,

    Indeed.

    So the question becomes:

    Do you and SIV hold these distorted and quite negative views of gun owners because you are not, yourselves, gun owners?

    Or do you own guns and hope to someday get a chance to use them, and therefore assume that other gun owners think the same way?

    =\;^)

  54. MNG,

    Obviously.

  55. The funny thing is MNG, those same stereotypes that liberals find so repellent, I rather like–and for the same reasons.

    That liberals find those folks so horrifying is just icing on the cake.

    Mind you, I live in happy-liberal land, if I lived in redneck land I might feel differently.

  56. Do you and SIV hold these distorted and quite negative views of gun owners because you are not, yourselves, gun owners?

    Well, the Orange Line does have a stop at the Washington Armory.

    I have to wonder why you’d give lonewhacko’s opinion on this more credibility then you do on anything else.

  57. NM,

    I can’t speak for SIV, but I’ve been a gun owner most of my life.

    I think those same gun-caressing stereotypes are so fun because:

    1.They’re not true (mostly).

    2.Just the right kind of folks are appalled that such folks could be living amongst them (see my post above).

    Of all the gun owning/shooting people I know, none are the gun-caressing, firearm fetishists
    of liberal lore. But I don’t want them to know that.

    Oops, I’ve said too much.

  58. Matthew,

    To the stereotype thing…

    So, what do you admire?

  59. News at 6; Feds bust up Obama plot; Schumer calls for total gun ban; Feinstein demands ‘America, give ’em up’, Boxer reported jumping up and down with glee, screaming ‘bible clinging, gun toting racists are goin’ down’…and on and on and on…oh and BATFE gets budget doubled in lame duck session.

  60. So, what do you admire?

    That they’re annoying, appalling to just the sort of people I like to see annoyed and appalled.

  61. oops,
    Cross post.

    Got it.

    For the record, I have known both types of gun owners.

    Like it or not, those who have little value for the life of others, are often drawn to guns and weapons. This doesn’t mean that these types make up a plurality of gun owners by any stretch.

    Worthless thugs, more likely than not to be gun owners.

    Gun owners, less likely than not to be worthless thugs.

  62. To the stereotype thing…

    So, what do you admire?

    Burt and Heather Gummer silly!

  63. …and Webb single handedly filibusters said gun control measure.

    Or Tester, or Salazar, [insert western/southern Dem here]

    The Democrats are going to do a lot of stupid shit but thankfully gun control isn’t going to be one of them for said reason.

  64. The Democrats are going to do a lot of stupid shit but thankfully gun control isn’t going to be one of them for said reason

    Yep and it’s not just the SCOTUS decision, gun control hasn’t been good for the Dems for quite a while.

  65. “Or do you own guns and hope to someday get a chance to use them, and therefore assume that other gun owners think the same way?”

    Could you please try to phrase a less ambiguous question?

    I have practiced killing other people, insofar as IPSC competition is defined. It used to be one of my favorite hobbies.
    I get a chance to use my guns quite often, in the service of varmint control.
    I assume a significant subset of gun owners at least wishes they could do the same.

    As a “liberal libertarian”, it seems weird to be supporting SIV here, but I’m practicing reaching across the aisle. 😉

  66. It is a negative sterotype of gun owners and gunshop employees that many participate in practical pistol shooting competition?

  67. jasa,

    Sorry.
    I am Mr. Ambiguity.

    But, for the sake of clarity, what is it you are supporting in SIV’s statement.

    That simulated killing of simulated armed folks is their favorite hobby?

    As for the “use” my use of the word was meant to carry the implicature of “use to kill a real person.”

    I don’t think that parody of gun owners works.

    SIV and Matt’s comments seem to imply the same mindset for the folks hanging out at gun shops.

  68. um,

    “seemed”

    both have clarified by this point.

    My response, of course, was tongue in cheek anyway.

  69. It’s simply not a winning issue, and doubly so since Obama’s electoral base for re-election will include a few Southern states and nearly all the Southwest.

  70. The Democrats are going to do a lot of stupid shit but thankfully gun control isn’t going to be one of them for said reason.

    I really hope that’s true. I don’t believe it’s true, but I really hope it’s true. Voting record wise, Obama is the most hostile presidential candidate in, well, ever. I can’t see him not trying to push some stupidity on us. I’d be pleased if he didn’t, I just don’t believe he can help himself.

  71. I can’t see him not trying to push some stupidity on us.

    Agreed–let’s just hope he’s so busy pushing other stupid shit that he has no time for gun control.

  72. Let me put it this way, Other Matt, if he actually pushes that through (again I don’t think it’s possible because of people like Webb, Tester, Salazar, and the Udalls + Republicans=working gun rights majority)but if he somehow got it through, that would make him the most politically inept President since James Buchanan.

  73. Do you and SIV hold these distorted and quite negative views of gun owners because you are not, yourselves, gun owners?

    Seriously, where have I portrayed gun owners in any distorted or negative light?
    Most handguns are defensive arms.They are made for shooting people.

  74. Neu,

    I couldn’t say if gun store employees are highly represented at the gun range. One can only hope that if they are carrying a gun, they have practiced with it. Are you implying this practice is morally suspect?

    Most people with better than a room temperature IQ realize that shooting someone for real is to be studiously, strenuously avoided. I think SIV meant “practiced and capable”, not “itching to kill someone today”.

  75. Senator Webb doesn’t think gun laws apply to him.
    That is not a good sign.”Common sense gun control” will pass if it is attached to other more popular legislation

  76. Seriously, where have I portrayed gun owners in any distorted or negative light?

    “…I suspect practicing killing other armed folk is one of their favorite hobbies.”

    Maybe in your ‘verse that isn’t negative, but for most folk in this world, gun owner or hoplophobe, that doesn’t sound terribly normal.

    I would dare say that it is the bluster of one who has never stared down the business end of a gun at a person with bad intent. Or had to make the decision to fire on another human being even for self preservation. Of the many gun owners I know, damn few of them have been in that situation and NONE of them flap their lips about it with such false bravado.

  77. juris imprudent,

    Anyone participating in defensive pistol training/competition is practicing shooting other people.Those who expend a large portion of their disposable income and recreational time on it probably consider it to be their favorite hobby.I’d feel a lot safer around those people than say a police officer whose training is limited to “qualifying” so he can keep his crappy government job.

  78. economist,

    Are all the gun shops near you open 24/7? If not, there are ways to rob a gun store and not encounter armed goons. Criminals are dumb, but even they’re smart enough to know that you can break in when the store is closed.

  79. The IDPA shooters at my club that I know, don’t view it as practicing to shoot other armed people. I agree that too many LEOs don’t do any more training then necessary for qualifying.

  80. Anyone participating in defensive pistol training/competition is practicing shooting other people.

    And just like sparring is to actual fighting, it’s of limited utility.

  81. Mo,

    There is a distinction between robbery and burglary.Robbery indicates a confrontation.

  82. There is a distinction between robbery and burglary.Robbery indicates a confrontation.

    I was not aware of that. I had always assumed they were synonyms. I take back my comment, robbing armed people strikes me as moronic.

  83. The IDPA shooters at my club that I know, don’t view it as practicing to shoot other armed people.

    That is exactly the skill they are learning and honing. I don’t understand why anyone should have a problem with that. Most handgun owners I know keep at least one weapon always loaded with expensive, more lethal ammunition.Why is that?
    Personally,I have faith in any ammunition that shoots reliably.Wadcutters will get the job done if the situation should arise.

  84. I suppose I owe Lone Wackjob my gratitude for making things so overt.

    Orange Line Special | October 27, 2008, 5:37pm | #

    Other than providing a table for another round of race card playing…

    You got that? Even when racist Nazi skinheads try to put together a plan to murder a black candidate for president and a bunch of other non-white people because of their skin color, it’s disreputable “playing the race card” if you dare to speak out loud about racism.

    There really is no meaning to the phrase “play the race card” beyond being a more menacing-sounding version of “complain about racism,” is there?

  85. If I was a McCainiac hack, working a libertarian board on behalf of John McCain, and this story came out, you know what I’d do?

    I’d try to change the subject to gun rights.

  86. I guess the Neo-Nazi bloc of the GOP took McCain’s call to “fight with me” to beat Obama a lil’ too seriously.

  87. This TallDave stuff is great.

  88. Isn’t it funny how the feds put out statements, right on the day of the arrests, about “it’s not known if they had the capabilities, they were just dreamers” when the wanna-be terrorists in question aren’t Muslim?

  89. The Criminal Complaint charges Cowart and Schlesselman with … making threats against a major candidate for the office of president.

    But making threats against minor candidates for the office of president is perfectly OK.

  90. @joe:

    You’re an idiot.

    If Obama wins this thing, a lot of racists will come out of the woodwork and be rounded up and abused by ATF thugs, just like they were after OK City and Waco. I don’t have a racist bone in my body, but it would be silly to think that some white people won’t be angry about an unknown, unqualified black man being escorted into the presidency by the liberal media. And it’s even sillier to think that the feds won’t use those isolated cases as an excuse to punish all law-abiding gun owners.

    It’s time to turn the safety off, folks.

  91. It really is gonna be the 1990s again.

  92. You know what, Miller? The first thing I think about “people like that” isn’t that they’re white. It’s that they’re assholes.

  93. You’re an idiot.

    You’re nothing.

    All of you together = nothing.

  94. Miller
    Are you arguing that people should vote against Obama because if he wins his win may provoke armed racists and the feds will use those incidents to clamp down on the rest of us? So essentially we let these nuts hold us hostage because they might get upset.

    Fuck the nuts, vote for who you think is best and watch your rights. That’s what a non-coward would do.

  95. Please.

    A couple of skinhead or whatever idiots have some fantasy and the media try to make it sound like they were thisclose to putting it together.

    Robbing a gun store (ha) and going into a school or near one (which is near impossible these days without ID), and wiping out 100+ people. Uh huh.

    Yeah, you pick them up anyway for the threat. But, calm down. Geez.

  96. Hey joe [gosh I haven’t said that for a while] – at least Miller didn’t say “your an idiot”. Credit where credit is due.

  97. So essentially we let these nuts hold us hostage because they might get upset.

    It sounds so incredible until you substitute Muslim for right-wing-nut, doesn’t it?

  98. Didn’t “joe” used to be at least somewhat sane? Nowadays he’s apparently gone into the KoolAid dispensary one too many times.

    The two losers discussed in this story had about as much luck of fulfilling their “plans” as I do of having a hot threeway with Oprah and Bess Meyerson.

    Note that in the general case, the BHO campaign will come out with a lot of things over the next week designed to distract from his redistro tape and his Soviet Union-style plans for pre-teens.

  99. @Mr Nice Guy:
    I’m more afraid of what a socialist like Obama would do to this country, with Pelosi and the media at his back. But you have to admit that, if BHO wins, there will be a massive fallout that may destroy our economy and our way of life as we know it. A lot of people will be angry. Some will blame Obama’s race, rather than his lack of brains and morals. I’m not afraid of a few lone nuts, but I am afraid that it will lead to a crackdown on freedom for all sorts of conservatives. Soon enough, talk radio and FOX News will be “hate speech,” and Our Leader will have full control of our discourse. If you think Obama’s dictatorship wouldn’t try to shut down the conservative and libertarian movement entirely, think again. He’s read his Mao.

    @juris imprudent:
    It sounds perfectly rational when you substitute “Muslims.” President Obama would send al Qaeda a fruit basket. That’s why I’m voting McCain-Palin.

  100. Miller sez if BHO wins, there will be a massive fallout that may destroy our economy and our way of life as we know it.

    Or maybe, things will just continue the long, slow downhill trend that Bush has helped accelerate the last 8 years.

    Dude, seriously, take your meds. You don’t want to end up like SIV.

  101. Everybody loves me!

  102. Sounds like a couple of dangerous douche bags may have been thwarted in a robbery/homicide or school shooting.

    But I don’t think it’s too “whacko” to believe that (with a left leaning regime change at home) we’ll be more likely to see the media resurrecting the domestic “neo-nazi” and “right wing militia” boogeyman.

    Looking back, even at its height, the neo nazi revolution scare had about as much validity to it as the 80’s Satanism scare. Unless you believe those A&E documentaries that claim Tim McVey was a neo-nazi (he leaned more towards libertarianism and his actions put his own cause back 20 years or more)

    There are some dangerous individuals in the White Power movement, but it is politically powerless. I think Brian Doherty is right to expect the worst. This reeks of BATF publicity hunt.

  103. McVeigh was very much a White Power guy…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_mcveigh

    …but Koresh had nothing to do with that scene. And “neo-nazi terrorist” was scare-code in the ’90s, when “liberal” meant “government dictatorship,” the same way “conservative” did in the Bush years. Meet the new boss…

  104. @Joe:
    I’ll say it again. You’re an idiot. Shut up. Stop embarassing yourself. Accept the truth. You’ll thank me later.

    You said “You’re nothing. All of you together = nothing.”

    Why are you here? Because, in your heart, you know we’re right.

  105. Between snarky defensive joe and all the young liberal types on this board, things are getting boring here. Lonewacko is almost a welcome relief.

  106. “But you have to admit that, if BHO wins, there will be a massive fallout that may destroy our economy and our way of life as we know it.”

    No sane person would think that. It’s ridiculous. “Our way of life as we know it”?

    Get a grip.

  107. “But you have to admit that, if BHO wins, there will be a massive fallout that may destroy our economy and our way of life as we know it.”

    No sane person would think that. It’s ridiculous. “Our way of life as we know it”?

    Get a grip.”

    Right on pleb. In 2004 my liberal friends were all like, if Bush wins life as we know it will end. Martial law will be enacted, women will be getting back alley abortions, you’ll be picked up at the library and questioned for what you read….

    I mean, sure, W’s sucked the last four years but my life is not too different now than it was in 2004. The same with Obama. We have all kinds of countervailing forces here in the US that make it hard for “life as we know it” to end. These parties try to make you think that every contest is a life or death one, and lately they try to make you think if the other guy wins goblins will eat your kids. It’s silly.

    It also is why so many people think they shouldn’t vote third party btw. “I really like Barr but I cant let that monster (McCain/Obama) in the White House!” Dude, vote for who you really want, your life will not change dramatically either way if history is any guide…

  108. Miller, your scorn, like LoneWacko’s, is a badge of honor. It goes a long way to confirming that I’m right when I drive people like you to spitttle-flecked anger.

  109. You said “You’re nothing. All of you together = nothing.”

    Why are you here? Because, in your heart, you know we’re right.

    I think you should get one thing straight, Miller – you are not “we.” You are not one and the same as even ordinary libertarians. You’re a race-baiting little shit, hunkering down with your black helicopter theories, pretending to be sad as you “admit” the racists have a point.

  110. Seems like gun shops have a higher than average robbery rate compared to other types of stores, iirc. Anyone got stats? LarryA?

    Burglarized maybe. I can’t find any statistics, but you hear of many more convenience store or bank robberies than gun store robberies.

    I did find the following in this week’s NSSF newsletter.

    ? GUN STORE OWNER HELPS NAB MAN WANTED FOR MURDER
    Because of the efforts of a Virginia gun store owner, a man wanted for murder is behind bars, the Virginian-Pilot reports. After a background check revealed that Barry Cleveland Roberts, 22, of Chesapeake was not only prohibited from buying the handgun he wanted at Bob’s Gun Shop in Norfolk, but wanted in Baltimore on a murder charge, store owner Robert Marcus helped state police apprehend him. Marcus called the customer and told him he had been approved. When he arrived back at the store, police wrestled him to the ground and handcuffed him. Asked if he was nervous about the sting, Marcus said, “I wasn’t. We have more guns than he has.”

    I suspect practicing killing other armed folk is one of their favorite hobbies.

    I’ve taught concealed carry in Texas for a dozen years now, and I’m a director of the Texas Concealed Handgun Association. My experience is just the opposite. I teach that shooting someone in self-defense is always a bad solution. Unfortunately it’s not always the worst solution.

    Most handguns are defensive arms. They are made for shooting people.

    Maybe as in “more than 50%.” There are a lot of handguns designed more for target shooting, hunting, reenactment, etc. I don’t think self-defense designs would be a large majority, at least on the civilian market.

    The IDPA shooters at my club that I know, don’t view it as practicing to shoot other armed people.
    That is exactly the skill they are learning and honing.

    No more so than Formula One race car drivers are practicing freeway driving. A common critique of IDPA and other such games is that they are not realistic real-world scenarios.

  111. I think you should get one thing straight, Miller – you are not “we.” You are not one and the same as even ordinary libertarians. You’re a race-baiting little shit, hunkering down with your black helicopter theories, pretending to be sad as you “admit” the racists have a point.

    Smackdown!

  112. Conrad-

    Being violently anti-federal government in the fly-over states mean you’re bound to rub shoulders with the “white power scene”.

    But if you look at his actual politics, the reason he did what he did, there’s nothing white supremecist about it.

    Why would a white supremecist be pissed at the feds murdering a multi-racial christian organization in Waco? The local KKK actually petitioned to over run the compound themselves.

    I’ll refer you to Gore Vidal’s Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace. Half the book is personal letters between the author and McVeigh, and contains McVeigh’s actual manifesto. He’s a libertarian. A violent and deluded libertarian, but a strict constitutionalist.

  113. I spoke too soon. Thanks for calling me on it. California also has a lot of Nazi bullshit in its anti-government underground, which is why I don’t go to gun shows. That stink just doesn’t wash out.

  114. These idjits had as much chance of success at killing Obama as the guy who supposedly was going to bring down suspension bridges by cutting the cables with a blowtorch. Difference being they might have succeeded at killing some minority group members on the way.

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