Chesapeake Update

I just spoke with the Virginian-Pilot reporter covering the Shivers-Frederick drug raid story (the police station wasn't accepting messages). He said there's been no information since last night, and that the police aren't talking at all. They won't say if they found any drugs in Frederic's home, or if they've even searched the garage where the informant alleges Frederick was growing a significant amount of marijuana. They also won't say if they knocked or announced before forcing entry.

It's pretty troubling that several days after a raid that left a cop dead and for which a man is being charged with first-degree murder, they're bunkering down, and aren't taking questions.

Prior posts here and here.

Comments

[sage]

They're taking pages right out of the Chicago PD playbook.

[Warren]

It's pretty troubling that several days after a raid that left a cop dead and for which a man is being charged with first-degree murder, they're bunkering down, and aren't taking questions.

First-degree murder? You got to be shitting me. So what are they alleging? That he hatched a scheme to grow pot in his garage thus luring the cops to break into his house so he could shoot one of em?

Stay on em Radley. Sink your journalistic teeth in, and don't go.

[javier]

First-degree murder? You got to be shitting me.

first degree emcompasses more than just premeditation. deaths of police officers, judges etc. are also considered first degree no matter what.

[Jennifer]

They won't say if they found any drugs in Frederic's home

Which means they didn't.

[brotherben]

jennifer,

tsk tsk. It just means that they haven't found them YET.

[Cesar]

Which means they didn't.

That or they haven't found time to plant them yet.

[Elemenope]

I'm as cynical as the next guy, but even I think that "planting" a sophisticated marijuana cultivating operation is quite beyond their skills and resources.

[Aresen]

It's pretty troubling that several days after a raid that left a cop dead and for which a man is being charged with first-degree murder, they're bunkering down, and aren't taking questions.

It takes time for them to get their lies story straight.

[Lamar]

This is the "New Professionalism," dont'cha know?

[J sub D]

It's pretty troubling that several days after a raid that left a cop dead and for which a man is being charged with first-degree murder, they're bunkering down, and aren't taking questions.

Hey, they need time to get their story straight do an internal investgation. Damn, this really smells bad.

[J sub D]

Aresen, you are a cynical man.

[Taktix?]

I'm still pissed from reading that cop blog in Radley's earlier thread. They're just a bunch of steroid-popping, arrogant assholes who think they are our superiors because they know how to sit on their asses and eat donuts.

I used to say an armed rebellion wouldn't take long because U.S. soldiers wouldn't be capable of killing U.S. civilians in the day and age. This is simply not true any more...

[PoliceTalk]

Radley should drop by. I am sure the brothers will give him a friendly welcome!

First, I suggest that you try to become a Police Officer to see if you can hack it. Second, do not come into our home, throw shit in our face and tell us it's ice cream, we don't appreciate it. Thirdly, this Cato Institute which you are quoting sure as hell gives me the impression it is anti-police and anti-government. And finally, walk a mile in our shoes before you pass judgment. You are here for one reason?to start trouble

[Ayn_Randian]

I used to say an armed rebellion wouldn't take long because U.S. soldiers wouldn't be capable of killing U.S. civilians in the day and age. This is simply not true any more.

excuse me?

[J sub D]

I used to say an armed rebellion wouldn't take long because U.S. soldiers wouldn't be capable of killing U.S. civilians in the day and age. This is simply not true any more...

There's a reason it's called a police state and not a soldier state. Soldiers fight wars, police maintain "law and order". Some serious housecleaning is needed and none of the presidential wannabes have even mentioned it. Not even RP.

[sage]

Remember, folks: If they come for your guns, be sure to give them the ammo first.

[BakedPenguin]

I'm as cynical as the next guy, but even I think that "planting" a sophisticated marijuana cultivating operation is quite beyond their skills and resources.

Yeah, getting 40 or 50 growing plants together is a different order task than simply throwing a bag on a table and taking a picture of it.

[Taktix?]

Ayn_Randian,

You're excused.

I mean "used to say" to mean "when I didn't know any better" not "last week."

[Episiarch]

first degree emcompasses more than just premeditation. deaths of police officers, judges etc. are also considered first degree no matter what

Because the cops and judges are more important than regular people, right? I mean, killing a civilian nothing isn't something you should go around doing, but killing a cop is beyond the pale.

I used to say an armed rebellion wouldn't take long because U.S. soldiers wouldn't be capable of killing U.S. civilians in the day and age. This is simply not true any more...

I wouldn't conflate soldiers with cops. Soldiers may be trained to kill but they don't have any power to oppress their fellow citizens. I still say that there's no way American troops would comply with orders to suppress and kill fellow Americans.

Now, the law enforcement community--they're a different story. They already view us as enemies.

[Kwix]

I mentioned this in the previous thread but here it goes again.

I expect this to go down like Cory Maye. I guess the only good thing is that Dr. Hayne doesn't practice in Virginia. As sad as it is to have a police officer shot in the line of duty, I am glad that nobody else, citizen or peace officer, was killed in what is looking to be "yet another isolated incident of police professionalism."

[gorak]

Is there a legal defense fund for this guy? There's got to be bunch of reason readers who would chip in.

[Jeff]

"Yeah, getting 40 or 50 growing plants together is a different order task than simply throwing a bag on a table and taking a picture of it."

He probably had a bag with some seeds in it, therefore he gets possession with intent to create a highly sophisticated growing operation.

[de stijl]

deaths of police officers, judges etc. are also considered first degree no matter what.

If you're not cop, you're little people.

[Matt D.]

Slightly off-topic, but not that much...

Has anyone heard about the recent decision on Sierra Corporate Design, Inc., v. David Ritz?

Just read... 😉

// Yes, it seems it's for real

[Isaac Bartram]

Mixed bag on outcomes in these cases.

This from Radley's excellent blog shows the verdicts vary.

It would be interesting to see someone study these cases to see how race and/or actual involvement in drug use or trade effects resolutions.

This is a case with which I am familar:

In 1989, police in Titusville, Florida raided the home of 58-year-old Charles DiGristine, a retired painter. As a flashbang grenade detonated near the front door, DiGristine's wife screamed, and he ran to his bedroom to get a handgun. An officer in dark clothing and a black mask charged the bedroom, where DiGristine shot and killed him. Police raided on information from an anonymous informant that the house was being used by armed drug dealers. They found a small amount of marijuana belonging to DiGristine's son. Nevertheless, DiGristine was charged and tried for first-degree murder. A jury acquitted him.

Several people helped raised money for DiGristine's defense and publicize his case. A couple of them were harassed for months afterwards by members of every police agency in Brevard County. One was even arrested over an "unpaid" traffic ticket. He was held in jail until his wife could find the two-year-old proof that it had been paid.

[Your Good Buddy Johnny Clarke]

Whoa, yeah, that police blog is sort of frightening, keeping in mind that we don't really know the posters and there's the whole "internet anonymity" thing. But that one guy arguing Fredericks has to be a criminal because, gee whiz, the cops were serving a warrant weren't they? is pretty scary.
Apparently all LEOs are omniscient, omnipotent and a bunch of other words ending in "ent".

[Isaac Bartram]

I still say that there's no way American troops would comply with orders to suppress and kill fellow Americans.

I wouldn't bet too much on that. I've got a Kent State card in my hand that'll beat anything in yours.

[Your Good Buddy Johnny Clarke]

I definitely wouldn't bet on the loving nature of American troops, at least not back in the 80's when I was in the Infantry. Whenever we practiced crowd control and riot tactics a lot of the guys seemed to get into the whole "beat the civilian" game a bit more than I was comfortable with.

Maybe they were just acting, but...

[kinnath]

I've got a Kent State card in my hand that'll beat anything in yours.

National Guard not equal to American troops.

The troops will confirm that for you.

[kinnath]

With apologies to an NG that served a rotation in Iraq.

[Dave W.]

Whoa, yeah, that police blog is sort of frightening, keeping in mind that we don't really know the posters and there's the whole "internet anonymity" thing.

I don't like the part where they try to make it sound like they will hunt down posters they don't like and give them extra-judicial punishment in real life. Reflects real bad on police.

[Rick H.]

Wow, the cops on that PoliceTalk link are some of the most ignorant, violent thugs I have encountered in my entire life... and I was mugged twice in Brooklyn.

[Aresen]

J sub D | January 23, 2008, 2:09pm | #

Aresen, you are a cynical man.

I guess that makes two of us, seeing as your 2:08 post was almost identical to my 2:06 post.

[PoliceLink]

Join this new thread where someone finds Radley's website:

There has to be a way to keep this taken care of..

[mediageek]

Dave, you should register over there and point that out to them.

[Isaac Bartram]

Oh, the scuttlebutt in the DiGristine case was that the informant was a neighbor with a grudge.

I find that something of a stretch given that I'm sure the cops would have loved to have gotten someone after their firststring suspect was freed. I mean, wouldn't providing false information that led to the death of a police officer lead to a pretty serious charge? It would if I was running things.

[Dave W.]

Dave, you should register over there and point that out to them.

Are you saying I didn't?

[Fluffy]

If troops won't do the work, they'll just hire mercs.

All those Blackwater guys have gone to the good time and trouble to slaughter Iraqis to gain experience with civilian-stomping. Why wouldn't they put that experience to use in the US? Because they love Americans? Yeah, right.

[Episiarch]

I've got a Kent State card in my hand that'll beat anything in yours.

National Guard not equal to American troops.

I should have thought this was obvious. The NG is basically a police and logistics force, used only in extreme situations.

[dhex]

oh god

Militarization of the police? what does that mean? more training, better weapons? better tactics? I'm all for that! You say militarization like its a bad thing???

oh fuck

[Ayn_Randian]

If anything, a more libertarian-leaning nation would favor Citizen-Soldiers like Reservists and National Guardsmen, given that the temptation to use a fully-trained Active Duty force is obviously too hard to overcome.

Think about it: monthly drills, called-up only in time of national crisis (in theory): it's hearkens back to a more republican United States.

We wouldn't go on half the overseas adventures, or even 1/3 (I'd bet) if the government had to literally yank people out of homes and jobs to send them to war.

[DavidS]

Ayn Randian - a bit like Switzerland...

[Dangerman]

Oh yeah dhex, I saw that too. Pushed away my delicious lunch half-eaten....

[zig zag man]

I think...

/shakes head in utter dispair

/kicks pebble

/walks away

[Ayn_Randian]

All those Blackwater guys have gone to the good time and trouble to slaughter Iraqis to gain experience with civilian-stomping

Fluffy, srsly now, the government wouldn't even let them continue that crap once the hue and cry went out, and that was happening to nameless, faceless, meaningless (to the government) Iraqis.

You really think the government would unleash Blackwater on its own people, when it leashed them when they got to violent with non-Americans?

[M]

Since the quality of testimony by confidential informants has surfaced here, I re-link a timely article from the tail-end of the previous thread on this unhappy topic.

[Andrew]

Ayn_Randian: Considering that Blackwater does a significant amount of SWAT training in this country, I'd say they've already been unleashed on the American people.

[zig zag man]

The legal system is working perfectly if you are a cop. I wish cops would quit acting like it was otherwise.

[de stijl]

Updated: "We found MJ, lights, etc" say cops. "We announced before we entered" they added without saying how long the gap was.

[FrBunny]

I do my best to avoid hyperbolizing in Us v Them type debates, but that PoliceTalk blog scares the pee out of me.

[Dave W.]

Updated: "We found MJ, lights, etc" say cops.

according to the article, the spokeperson said that they entered the residence.

[Andrew]

From the article: The return on the search warrant Shivers attempted to serve was filed Wednesday. According to a document filed in Chesapeake Circuit Court, two hours after the shooting, police found an undisclosed amount of marijuana, six lights, three transformers, smoking devices and a fan among other things at Frederick's home.

Most likely translation: one joint, 6 desk lamps, three power strips, an old bong, and a couple of ceiling fans.

[Steve Verdon]

Check Frederic's electricty bill. Chances are if he is growing pot then there is one of two things.

1. His bills will be atronomically high.
2. He is stealing energy--look at his meter, it has probably been tampered with.

[de stijl]

three transformers...

An expert witness will probably later identify them as GoBots.

[Dee]

PoliceTalk comment "First, I suggest that you try to become a Police Officer to see if you can hack it." No thanks I aspired to more in life and got an education. Had you received some education you would know kicking in people's doors based on a known informants tip is probably not the best idea when trying to stay alive.

"Second, do not come into our home, throw shit in our face and tell us it's ice cream, we don't appreciate it."

This one takes the cake with the mention of coming into their HOME. Very ironic since the issue is you coming into OUR HOMES with your guns drawn based on a criminals tip. Only to feed us bullshit lies (shitting in our faces) and plant evidence (ice cream) after you fuckup major.

"Thirdly, this Cato Institute which you are quoting sure as hell gives me the impression it is anti-police and anti-government."

It is anti jack booted thug, anti police state yes and your problem with that is what exactly? Worried about your job security or something?

"And finally, walk a mile in our shoes before you pass judgment. You are here for one reason?to start trouble."

Perhaps if you walked a few miles doing some real investigative work instead of relying on criminal informants before kicking in doors the judgement made about you would be different. Why is it that anytime someone disagrees with the police they are only trying to start trouble? Get the TASER and force us to comply why don't ya!

The petty threats by cops I read on PT forums are the exact bully tactics we are pointing out. Thanks for helping make our case for us with regards to the Men in Blue superiority complex.

As for a cop getting killed it is tragic but avoidable with the right sensible actions being taken instead of the current para-military raids. Just like killing innocent civilians is avoidable as well.

Regardless of your job (excluding military of course) at some point you have think for yourself and make the call that what your doing is dangerous and stupid. No one makes you do anything, other jobs could be taken if you know the one your doing is likely to get you killed. Perhaps if all the cops said they were no longer going to go kicking down doors because they felt unsafe doing so for themselves and the occupants of the house things would change.

If some task is being done in a dangerous manner at my job I can say whoa and make it right. How come cops and lawmakers can't do the same with this obviously deadly SOP for raiding their own citizen's homes? Seems simple enough to me.

Drugs do not kill cops. Over zealous drug warriors get cops killed.

[parse]

I wouldn't conflate soldiers with cops. Soldiers may be trained to kill but they don't have any power to oppress their fellow citizens. I still say that there's no way American troops would comply with orders to suppress and kill fellow Americans.

OK, so Kent State doesn't count. What about the Civil War?

[tijjer]

From the Virginian-Pilot:

Police spokeswoman Christi Golden said today that she did not know if drugs were found during the search at the home.

And as of 2 p.m. today, police had not filed a return form with the courts, which should list specifically what was found in the home.

When detectives tried to enter the house on Jan. 17 shots were fired from inside and Shivers was hit, Golden said today. She would not say how many times Shivers was shot, where he was hit or if the shots came through a door.

Golden said police did a "knock and announce" at the home. That is a procedure when police approach a door and announce their presence before entering.

The word "POLICE" was displayed on the officers' body armor and the officers were wearing badges, Golden said. Helmets were worn and had the word "POLICE" on them, she said.

. . . . .

A second search warrant was executed on the house after Shivers was shot. Police seized a Bersa "Firestorm" .380-calibur handgun, three bullet casings, and ammunition from the house. Police also seized a broken door, a television set, a pry bar, battering ram, a shoe and a flashlight.

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/01/all-officers-were-wearing-body-armor-during-shivers-shooting

That the police had POLICE on their clothes makes Frederick's actions a little bit tougher to defend. Not that I'm supporting a raid like this for a pot-growing operation. What's he going to do? Flush a bunch of lamps? Anyway, it's a shame that things happened like this.

[TrickyVic]

""" I still say that there's no way American troops would comply with orders to suppress and kill fellow Americans.""

I was going to say Kent State, but I see that was brought up already. Btw, I think one could argue that they are equal to American Troops when activated, even within the states such as Kent State. With respects to Americans killing Americans, the civil war serves as an example. Once we divide ourselves, it's not American vs. American. It's us vs. them.

Some guys with flag pins on the suits would love to shoot hippies.

[TrickyVic]

Dee your feeding the troll.

[Pinette]

They closed the policetalk thread

"For you new NON-LEOS read the terms of use, post a creditable profile and do not post in the ASK-A COP forum other than to ask a question or claify an LEOs answer. thank you."

[Steve Verdon]

Transformer?!?! What the kind you see up on the utility poles? What did this guy have a line running out to a nearby transmission line? Was he stealing energy off of a 220 KV line or something?

[Nate]

new thread guys

[J sub D]

There is no payoff posting a comment at the policetalk website. Nobody will rationaly engage you in conversation. It's a perfect example of locker room mentality. I didn't bother. I'll lurk there from time to time though. They reveal a lot about themselves.

BTW, I'm NOT jumping to the conclusion that the posters at policetalk are representative of the LEO community. But they do scare me in a way that a marijuana grower doesn't even come close to.

[Aresen]

de stijl | January 23, 2008, 4:16pm | #

three transformers...

An expert witness will probably later identify them as GoBots.

You beat me to it.

[Dee]

J sub D "But they do scare me in a way that a marijuana grower doesn't even come close to."

No shit! All the fucking herb in the world would not have killed that cop much less whatever was under a few lights if any. I am sorry the cop died but in all honesty to take a job where you know this will be your gig and to die for a weed is the stupidest thing I can think of. Talk about not thinking past the tip of your nose before acting. While I feel for the family etc I just can not feel bad for someone that would knowingly put themselves into that situation as an occupation and justify their actions based on assinine laws. If your foolish enough to think you can enforce these laws to begin with then your not really thinking much to begin with are you? It's a law made by a bunch of men nothing says you have to go out and risk your life trying to stop someone from doing something to themselves. Tatoos are foolish IMO but if they were illegal would cops bust in to stop a tatoo in someones house and risk their life to do it? I see no difference here as the ultimate goal is foolishly the same in both scenarios.

So many cops I have asked "do you think you will ever stop drugs?" and always the answer is no. Yet they keep trying.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Jesus! Every time I'm tempted to think there's even a tiny bit of common ground between libertarians and conservatives (it's pretty rare these days of Huckabee and roses), Radley Balko writes another article and I'm forced to ask myself "which gang talks about law and order more?"

Ice Cube said it best.

[Taktix?]

What about the Civil War?

Different era. While much of the weaponry saw its debut during the Civil War, the romantic idea of glorious combat didn't die until WWI.

Soldiers were still under the belief that they were fighting for some noble state. People even showed up to early Civil War battles to watch. I'm not saying these wars were any less brutal but the mentality of the soldier seems different these days.

Kent State? OK, fair enough...