Censorship

Mom! Dad! Help Me! There Are Dirty Pictures on My Computer!

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"Pornography Greater Threat to Children and Teens than National Study Indicates," warns a press release from the Christian News Wire. It notes that a study in the February issue of Pediatrics found that 42 percent of 10-to-17-year-old Internet users reported seeing online pornography in the previous year, and 66 percent of them said it was by accident. These numbers probably understate the problem, the press release says, because 1) the survey was done a couple years ago and 2) "children and teens often don't respond openly and honestly to researchers, especially discussing something as uncomfortable as pornography." True enough, which is why the respondents' claims that they inadvertently stumbled on pornography, something teenagers have been known to actively seek, should be taken with a grain of salt. Still, it's a relief to see that the press release, rather than a call for censorship, is a sales pitch for Integrity Online, an Internet filtering service. 

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  1. I’m curious, how does pornography harm children? Does it cause seizures? Make their hair fall out?

  2. “Something teenagers have been known to actively think”

    You win today’s “To put it mildly” award!

  3. Seek. Damnable typo

  4. Given that I’m a veteran of web-surfing, have been so for years, and still have managed to not “stumble upon” pornography, methinks one should take this “but officer, the pornography was just sitting there!” claim with a wee bit of salt.

    Say, not larger than one solar mass.

  5. “I’m curious, how does pornography harm children? Does it cause seizures? Make their hair fall out?”

    It leads to activity that causes blindness.

  6. Even if porn is somehow harmful, how can the age range be 10-17 and claim to show anything meaningful? The emotional and physical differences between a fifth graders and high school seniors is huge.

    Besides, do any of these people believe that, say, a fourteen year-old boy hasn’t gone out of his way to look at porn?

  7. This weekend SNL did a joke that researchers found that 42 percent of teens saw pornography online and 58 percent of teens lie to researchers.

  8. They make pornography sound like witchcraft: A glimpse of a single square centimeter of taut scrotal flesh is enough to make girls eyes catch fire, and certain misspellings of the word “nipple” can compel boys to slam their genitals in the nearest coffee-tale book or phone directory.
    During a full moon take an apple, rotate it three times widdershins, tap it against your taint, and hold it up in the air, and you will be set upon by women in numbers that make those Axe body spray ads look tame.

  9. I’m a veteran of web-surfing, have been so for years, and still have managed to not “stumble upon” pornography

    A while ago, I did a report on the state of the Chinese educational system. I accidentally typed in “Asian School Girls” with all of my Google and Surf Control filters turned off.

    You should try it sometime.

  10. “children and teens often don’t respond openly and honestly to researchers, especially discussing something as uncomfortable as pornography.”

    No sh*t, especially if they have a parent like my ex-wife, who not only tried to beat the hell out of our son (14 at the time) when she caught him looking, but then took a bright red Sharpie Magnum (1/2″ wide tip) and wrote, “God is watching you” on the monitor.
    If a kid even thinks in their wildest fantasies that they’re going to get that kind of treatment, they’ll confess to being the gunman on the Grassy Knoll before they ever admit to viewing porn online – and there’s a lot more parents like that out there than you’d think.

    Mike

  11. Innocent, it could be worse. I know a lawyer that represented the HEB grocery chain, and its parent company H.E. Butts.

  12. I’m curious, how does pornography harm children? Does it cause seizures? Make their hair fall out?

    I think the general idea is that children are not mature enough to understand the fantasy of pornography as compared to the reality of normal human sexual relationships. Porn illustrates the physical mechanics of sex but says nothing of the other aspects of it.

  13. “Even if porn is somehow harmful”

    I don’t see how looking at pictures/vids of people having sex would harm a kid in any way.

    From what I can find online their is no link between early use of porn and anti-social behavior. Generally it’s a repressive upbringing thats one cause of later crminal sexual behavior.

  14. I don’t know about children 10-17 because the internet wasn’t around when I was that age, and I know I can’t show causation, but I can based on a sample size of 1 definately show a direct coorelation between internet pornography and indeed going bald.

    The sad thing is I think my research on this subject might be more substantial than many of the most vocal of the internet critics.

  15. That was nothing compared to when I was doing a report on the Grand Canyon. I typed in “Glory Hole.”

    The horror.

  16. “…normal human sexual relationships”

    And these are?

  17. I think that by age 10, and almost certainly by age 17, most children have been exposed to porn of some sort. Whether it’s accidentally finding a video that’s labeled incorrectly (my experience) or from friends who just have to show them the coolest thing since sliced bread. IMO, if they’ve lived such a sheltered life to not have seen it by age 17, they’ll more than likely end up with some sort of emotional / psychological problems in the future. You can harm your kids by keeping them sheltered from perceived threats…

  18. As someone who walked in on his parents “hugging naked” approximately 11 times in between the ages of 6 and 11 years old, let me tell you, porn is not the real threat. Sometimes the mechanics of nockin’ the boots is more digestible if it is separated form the icky relationship aspect. 😉

  19. Google, What’s a donkey punch?

  20. Here’s a question for any libertarian who has children (assuming such a person exists): do you feel totally comfortable with your kids viewing any kind of pornographic images they can access on their computer?

  21. I’m curious, how does pornography harm children? Does it cause seizures? Make their hair fall out?

    It makes their peenies hard. Hard peenies are against god.

  22. Dan, I have kids, and libertarian leanings. I don’t feel comfortable with my kids viewing those images. Not in the least bit.

  23. Dan, I have kids, and libertarian leanings. I don’t feel comfortable with my kids viewing those images. Not in the least bit.

    Me too, however I believe it is MY job to stop them from viewing it, not the governments.

  24. Dan, I have kids, and libertarian leanings. I don’t feel comfortable with my kids viewing those images. Not in the least bit.

    Right, and I don’t think there is a conflict between the two necessarily.

    But one big problem that libertarians have as a political movement is illustrated nicely by Mr. Sullum’s post and many of the comments posted here. It’s a valid point to say that people should be free to produce and view pornography if they choose. But to act like people who think porn is not suitable for children are idiots or prudes is a good way to not be taken seriously by the mainstream, who hold this view as being kind of obvious.

  25. do you feel totally comfortable with your kids viewing any kind of pornographic images they can access on their computer?

    What Tym said. I’ll also add that if he did see pornography, I have no reason to believe that it will do him any harm, whatsoever. I feel the same way about his going to church, btw.

  26. Cab,

    “I don’t feel comfortable with my kids viewing those images”

    What exactly makes you uncomfortable? I’m not being snarky, I’m curious. My own parents were very open when I asked them about sex, masturbation, etc. They knew I had dirty mags but never gave me a problem.

  27. A friend of mine, as a young kid in the early 70s, found a stash of porno mags in his garage. We’re not talking Playboy, or even Hustler. This was a mix of all kinds of hardcore, moneyshots, homosexuality, interracial, sadism, scat play, etc. All in hush hush black and white below the radar publishing. We oohed and awwed over this weird and icky stuff, engrossed as any 8 year olds could possibly be, figuring out what use a boner might serve.

    Forgive me for making such a presumption, but despite all that exposure to such filth, I grew up OK.

  28. But to act like people who think porn is not suitable for children are idiots or prudes is a good way to not be taken seriously by the mainstream, who hold this view as being kind of obvious.

    That’s a strawman. We think people who want the government to protect our children from the unproven “dangers” of pornography are idiots and prudes.

  29. Mike Kozlowski: While that is definitely fucked up, I think I can beat it. My mother was dating this guy for like 4 years when I was between the ages of Oh, 7 and 11 or something like that. She was and still is one of those religious types that send in postcards boycotting everything from Howard Stern to Sports Illustrated. She repeatedly found porn at her boyfriends house, and flipped nuts every time. Well, he had his sailboat stored in our yard, and so one day, my mother gathered up all his porn she could find (keep in mind, this was quite hardcore), and cut out EVERY picture and pasted them along with pictures of herself (non-pornographic, thank science) all over his boat. Imagine my surprise when as an 8 year old boy, I lift up the sheet to play on the boat in our yard, only to find it COVERED in tits and ass.

  30. Add my voice to the chorus… not comfortable, my job to filter/warn.

  31. I do have a concern about parents “exibiting” discomfort when discussing sexual issues. Kids pick up on their parents moods. I think the parents discomort could easily send kids the wrong message- namely that sex is bad/wrong leading to all sorts of sexually repressed adults. I’m not accusing but I think this whole porn and kids concern(freak out) will cause much more harm then viewing porn ever could.

  32. Someday, we as a society are going to realize that people are physically mature at 13 or 14, and that we do more harm to them by trying to pretend they are asexual than we would doing otherwise. Yeah, the emotions involved are very strong and can cause teens to make bad choices, but covering it up doesn’t solve that problem.

    It’s one thing to not want your kids openly looking at porn in your house (my wife freaks out over the stuff), but it’s quite another to pretend that they are going to “stumble upon it.” That’s just willful ignorance.

    Interestingly, my first porn exposure was when I was about 10, and it was the famous 1976 issue of Playboy that featured the Jimmy Carter “lust in my heart” interview. My parents bought it for the articles (snort!), but somehow it magically ended up in my dad’s bedside drawer. Hmm….

  33. Stupendous Man,

    I think you bring up a good point. When I talk about disturbing pornography, I don’t think of things like playboy or http://www.domai.com.

    The stuff that makes makes me uncomfortable are websites catering to extreme BDSM or rape fantasies and the like.

    It really comes down to what emotion the fantasy is feeding. Simple erotic pleasure? Fine. Dreams of subjugating other human beings? Bad.

    Of course, by the time they are adults, I want my kids to be well enough brought up that even if they look habitually at those nasty websites, they aren’t trying to kidnap people and act out their fantasies. Thus, I don’t want to shield them indefinitely, especially since then you get the whole forbidden fruit thing going.

    (There’s an idea, push hard core stuff at them in early teen years so that their rebellion takes the form of rejecting it. Hmmm ;@ )

  34. That’s a strawman. We think people who want the government to protect our children from the unproven “dangers” of pornography are idiots and prudes.

    But that’s not always how it comes across, and even then don’t be too surprised when the message of “we don’t care about your kids, nothing’s getting in the way of our porn!” doesn’t win over many converts.

  35. Here’s a question for any libertarian who has children (assuming such a person exists): do you feel totally comfortable with your kids viewing any kind of pornographic images they can access on their computer?

    No sir, but it’s my responsibility, not yours. Or his. Or his.

  36. Well, he had his sailboat stored in our yard, and so one day, my mother gathered up all his porn she could find (keep in mind, this was quite hardcore), and cut out EVERY picture and pasted them along with pictures of herself (non-pornographic, thank science) all over his boat.

    Best. Boat. Ever.

    Seriously, the SST&A? That would go over huge at a place like Put In Bay, or Havasu.

  37. What exactly makes you uncomfortable?

    He’s two.

  38. StupendousMan,

    I’ll try and answer some of your questions. I wouldn’t ‘freak’ if I caught my kids looking at porn. I would just take whatever precaution I needed in order to stop it. (caveat: I’m not sure I consider something like playboy images “porn”).

    The fact of the matter is, I’ve seen enough porn to know that most porn movies show women in a negative light. I’m raising my sons to be men. Men don’t treat their women like that.

    Maybe, If I were there to show my kids how not to treat a woman, I’d let them watch it, but watching porn with your kids is icky.

    ps: call me a prude now, but if/when you have daughters….you’ll thank me.

  39. I don’t see how looking at pictures/vids of people having sex would harm a kid in any way.

    From what I can find online their is no link between early use of porn and anti-social behavior. Generally it’s a repressive upbringing thats one cause of later crminal sexual behavior.

    Nice generalizations, StupendousMan.

    “…normal human sexual relationships”

    And these are?

    Um, to list a few: not fucking animals, not molesting children, not wearing adult diapers for fun, not rolling around in excrement…I could go on, but maybe you will get a clue.

    I think that by age 10, and almost certainly by age 17, most children have been exposed to porn of some sort.

    Where the fuck did you grow up? Abusedchildrensville? Who sees porn at age 10? I’d say perhaps some boys see porn at an age that young, but I’d hardly say that “most children” have been exposed to porn at so young an age, unless their parents are doing a piss-poor job of letting them enjoy their remaining childhood years. I didn’t see my first actual porn movie until my freshman year of college, and that was only because I happened to attend an incredibly lame frat party with some of my equally-disappointed dormmates.

    Add to that the fact that most of you who are insisting that children viewing hardcore porn is “normal” are probably in fact losers who are unemployed and sitting in your pajamas eating Cheetos and masturbating online, yet of course you’ll be the first people defending yourselves as “normal”. That’s funny — tell me another one.

  40. Who sees porn at age 10?

    *raises hand*

  41. fact losers who are unemployed and sitting in your pajamas eating Cheetos and masturbating online

    [Looks up] errr… um. what. um. nevermind.

    /kicks pebble. trods off.

  42. prior to 1996, no one under 18 ever saw pornagraphic images. It was such an innocent time before that evil internet was invented by Al Gore and the liberals to feed porn to our children.

  43. Who sees porn at age 10?

    smacky, I don’t think that any of my group had seen porn by age 10(although we did know what Playboy was, if that counts), but by 13, most of the boys in my middle school had traded at least a few Playboy/Penthouse/Hustler magazines.

    It was just one of those things, like fireworks, that pubescent boys smuggle into schools and share in groups.

  44. Calm down smacky, no one is proposing mandatory porn for your kid or that porn sites have the right to spam your child’s email address or try and circumvent web filters. I think most of us are saying that the porn “we” viewed wasn’t so bad and WE are alright. I think this is a normal reaction to the endless saber rattling with the battle cry “Save the children, the children must be protected at all costs” that we see, something which COULD lead to the continual abridgement of our rights as adults. As much as we don’t want our children to see things we aren’t prepared to explain to them in detail, we still have to understand that outright banning is a worse evil.

    People find it easy enough to tell others what to do than suffer their own loss of entertainment to protect their children. Don’t have a TV, abstain from getting internet, don’t let your child play with anyone else that might show him dirty pictures. Of course the child may end up mentally unprepared for the world, but atleast his parents can be assured that he was raised to never encounter mental distress

  45. Damn, smacky. I can only hope you won’t call me names for disagreeing with you.

    Um, to list a few: not fucking animals, not molesting children, not wearing adult diapers for fun, not rolling around in excrement…I could go on, but maybe you will get a clue.

    The activities you describe represent a minority of the pornography that’s available. And you don’t think that wearing adult diapers and enjoying excrement (something I’ll never understand, btw) can be compared to fucking kids and animals, can you?

    Where the fuck did you grow up? Abusedchildrensville? Who sees porn at age 10? I’d say perhaps some boys see porn at an age that young, but I’d hardly say that “most children” have been exposed to porn at so young an age, unless their parents are doing a piss-poor job of letting them enjoy their remaining childhood years.

    I think you’re confusing abuse with neglect. That said, I think most kids who are ten have seen Playboy or the equivalent. That counts as pornography in most places in the U.S.. Lots and lots high-school students have seen hard-core pornography. I was thirteen when I first saw it and most everyone I know first saw it before they were out of high school.

    If you want to argue that this exposure is dangerous or harmful, you’ll have to do more than call people losers for suggesting there’s no evidence to support such an assertion.

  46. Who sees porn at age 10?

    Does Playboy count? If so, age 7, and I still remember being confused about why it had so many naked women in it.

  47. [[Where the fuck did you grow up? Abusedchildrensville? Who sees porn at age 10? I’d say perhaps some boys see porn at an age that young, but I’d hardly say that “most children” have been exposed to porn at so young an age, unless their parents are doing a piss-poor job of letting them enjoy their remaining childhood years. I didn’t see my first actual porn movie until my freshman year of college, and that was only because I happened to attend an incredibly lame frat party with some of my equally-disappointed dormmates.]]

    Smacky,

    Ok, maybe most kids don’t see it by age 10, but as stated in another post, by age 13 to 15 most are exposed to it in one way or another. At least that was the case “back in the day”, when you could fight in the schoolyard and not have to worry about your parents being sued by the other boy’s parents…before this whole “let us save you from yourself” mentality came to be.

    As for your “piss-poor” parenting comment, you’re just making an ass out of yourself by assuming that. The only way to ensure that kids don’t come upon it is to lock them up and not let them go out and play with their friends.

    Finally, if your 1st experience was in a “lame frat party with equally-disappointed dormmates”, all I have to say is: what kind of “frat” party was that?? Good frat parties involve drinking and real sex taking place…not porn! Unless, the members of the frat belonged to the same elite club you do…the kind where they are sheltered from viewing such horrors until the day they get away from mommy and daddy and decide to watch it on their own…

  48. Contra grumpy realist’s assertion, I did accidentally stumble upon porn, while at work, no less. At a company where getting internet access required act of god type approval.

    Essentially, an old computer book publishing were in the habit of putting their url in their books with an advert stating that one could find their catalog there.

    They changed their name, bought a new website, and afte a few years let their old website registration lapse. then a German guy started a website containing softcore homoerotica.

    Then came that blessed time when we were trying to look up the name of a book that we wanted to order – a name nobody could remember, but whose publishing house url was known. Since I was the only one who actually had internet access in my dept, we nturally used my computer to look it up.

    Apparently the look on my face when the browser started displaying men lounging around in neon-bright thong bottoms and neckties over what God has sent them to the world in was something to behold.

    We also won’t talk about the time I decided to crush an opponent in a web-based political debate by linking to a whitehouse press release, and thoughtlessly typed in whitehouse.com to my browser’s address bar, just as my wife was walking into the office.

    Fun times…

  49. Per the last paragraph on the post, I think we should be applauding the company for taking and promoting a free market approach to what some people view as a problem. I think it’s great that filtering software exists to give parents the choice to screen out unsuitable material. Frankly, I want more people like that who see something that hacks them off and come up with a voluntary solution for it.

    Of course, they are fooling themselves if they think that will prevent the kid from finding other material. I mean, the Internet was still about 5 or 6 years away when I turned 10 and I still managed to find ample material exhibiting the female body.

  50. smacky, I don’t think that any of my group had seen porn by age 10(although we did know what Playboy was, if that counts), but by 13, most of the boys in my middle school had traded at least a few Playboy/Penthouse/Hustler magazines.

    It was just one of those things, like fireworks, that pubescent boys smuggle into schools and share in groups.

    David,

    Oh, I can completely believe that. 13, 14 year old boys — completely understandable; perfectly believable. It’s the people here who seem to be insisting that all ten-year-olds know about and seek out hardcore porn and so parents should just allow and encourage that “because it’s healthy mmmmkay” who I am taking issue with, especially when all they have to offer is personal anecdotal evidence. It’s the complete subversal of the status quo that I find completely annoying — just because someone likes to be tied up wearing an adult diaper and smeared with something filthy doesn’t mean that other people “should” accept it and consider it “normal”. Maybe complete freakiness is more common than before, and maybe it is even becoming the norm in certain places (although I personally believe that’s largely an illusion created by the internet). Furthermore, even if it were to become the norm, I can’t stand internet jerkoffs telling other people what they should or shouldn’t feel comfortable with, or implying that people’s discomfort with the bizarre is somehow “strange” or unwarranted.

    In other words, I just wanted to make it clear who is the freak and who is not the freak, that’s all. (Not that there is anything necessarily or inherently wrong with being a freak, mind you).

    AC,

    I wasn’t talking about Playboy porn. There is generally quite a difference between Playboy porn and internet porn; we were discussing the latter (or so I thought).

    And you don’t think that wearing adult diapers and enjoying excrement (something I’ll never understand, btw) can be compared to fucking kids and animals, can you?

    Les,

    I was comparing them only on their level of weirdness/abnormality.

  51. Well, what I was commenting on was my skepticism about teenagers just “stumbling” across porn. Yes, it’s easy to pull up links to porn web sites when doing Google searches, but most of the links make it pretty obvious what they’re pointing to. If a teenager doesn’t click on the link, he’s not going to see any “dirty pictures.”

    Also, what about all those net filters that exist? It seems to me that if parents are worried about their kids’ access to porn, the very least they could do is install one of those.

  52. Most males I know saw porn by ten.

    Also: most men pee in the shower.

    Any other male mysteries that need answering?

  53. Finally, if your 1st experience was in a “lame frat party with equally-disappointed dormmates”, all I have to say is: what kind of “frat” party was that?? Good frat parties involve drinking and real sex taking place…not porn!

    Read again carefully, JimmyDaGeek…it was a lame frat party.

    Unless, the members of the frat belonged to the same elite club you do…the kind where they are sheltered from viewing such horrors until the day they get away from mommy and daddy and decide to watch it on their own…

    Yes, enjoy your potshots. It’s only fair, since I thoroughly enjoyed mine.

  54. Smacky,

    I must say, my potshots were only in retaliation to yours…my apologies for stooping so low 🙂

    But honestly, I see your point regarding the real hardcore, freaky (to me and you), porn sites. And, yes, they might have some unwanted mental repercussions for our kids. However, I was just giving my observation that most pre-teens have been exposed to porn (a la Playboy, soft-core Cinemax / HBO, etc.) But as stated in other posts, chances of them “stumbling” onto such hardcore sites seem slim. I can surf the web all day, click on various obscure links all day, and almost certainly not stumble upon porn unless I actively seek to do so.

    IMO

  55. Any other male mysteries that need answering?

    Do men actually LIKE porn??????? There’s no love in it!!!!!!!!

  56. Do men actually LIKE porn??????? There’s no love in it!!!!!!!!

    Now that’s some funny shit, right there.

  57. You know what I don’t get about porn? I guy’s got two girls doing their…thing to him. But in the end he always gets himself off.
    Sorry ladies, but if you and your equally hot girlfriend order a pizza, and decide to pay with service instead of cash, don’t expect me to have to provide my own climax. You started it, you finish it.

  58. I have seen a few dirty pictures and movies in my time.

    But I sure as hell don’t piss in the shower. Some things are just beyond the pale.

  59. I can fully understand how kids accidently stumble onto internet porn, because I do it all the time.

    Just the other day, I accidently typed in the words “naked college cheerleaders having sex with each other” and accidently hit the “enter” key, and I was SHOCKED with what came up. Shocked!

    After about 10 to 15 minutes of coming to grip with the situation, I, like Pete Townsend, collected as many of the images as I could, so I can later provide them to law enforcement. Oh yeah, I’m also writing an article about it. Eventually.

  60. Do you mean that men pee while in the shower or that men pee into the shower? ‘Cause I do both.

  61. Way back when my childern were teens, I had an interesting discussion with a good friend about controlling our children’s access to bad stuff. This was before the Internet explosion (late 80’s to early 90’s) and we were focussed on cable TV and VHS rentals.

    I asked my friend, worst case, would he rather his kids grew up to be violent or promiscuous. He paused and in a very soft voice said promiscuous. I told him that he should leave the Chucky tapes on the shelf at the rental place and bring porn home for his kids. It’s far closer to reality than any slasher flick.

    The Internet has increased the availability of “bad stuff” by an order of magnitude, but I don’t think it changes the nature of the problem.

  62. smacky, I have to say that you seem to be reading a lot into stuff here that people have not actually said. “It’s the people here who seem to be insisting that all ten-year-olds know about and seek out hardcore porn and so parents should just allow and encourage that “because it’s healthy mmmmkay”” Nobody here has said that parents should encourage 10-year-olds to seek out hardcore porn.

    All that people are saying, as far as I can see, is that
    a) the younger set of the demographic in the study probably seeks out porn a lot more than the study suggests
    b) it probably does not do them a great deal of harm, if any harm at all.

    “…just because someone likes to be tied up wearing an adult diaper and smeared with something filthy doesn’t mean that other people “should” accept it and consider it “normal”.”

    Don’t make us reclaim your decoder ring, smacky! (Feel free to take a drink, folks.) I’m of the belief that we should accept anything that involves willing participants, even if we personally find it disgusting. The range of behaviors that potentially disgust somebody is a little too wide for me to be comfortable with the idea that any such thing shouldn’t be “accepted”. As for “normal”, I think we need to consider whether we’re talking about “statistically normal” or “OK”. Diaper fetishism is probably not statistically normal. But as long as it’s all consenting adults, so what?

    “I wasn’t talking about Playboy porn. There is generally quite a difference between Playboy porn and internet porn…”

    Yeah; internet porn usually hasn’t had the almighty crap airbrushed out of it. But seriously…holy sweeping generalizations, Batman. I truly doubt that “internet porn” is any different from any other kind of porn. There were underground magazines and films long before the internet, and I doubt human interests have changed that much. Ever heard of a “Tijuana Bible”? Five minutes of Googling, and the very first ones I found contained lesbian bondage, voyeurism, and anal penetration. “Normal” or not? It may be easier to find the weird stuff now than it used to be, but that’s probably no more true of porn than it is of any other media. (For example, I can listen to an all-shakuhachi internet radio station; good luck finding that in the pre-internet days.) “Internet porn” runs the gamut from playboy.com itself to “tubgirl” (I will spare your eyes) to, arguably, Beautiful Agony, which contains no nudity at all. The thing I could possibly see being true is that little Tommy and Susie are more likely now to find something not “normal” than they were back in 1975, because of the ease in finding anything now.

  63. I meant piss while showering. The sensation of warm water striking me in the sack usually opens the valves.

    Also, kids have pretty twisted twisted sexual ideas on their own without porn. There was a kid I knew in third grade call the Adventures of Mr. Fucksex, a wild eyed guy who would pursue the lovely Miss Assbutt and expose his screaming penis at her. Of course, my friend and I had no idea what sex was, we just knew that certain words and body parts were dirty.

    Y’know, if we had had porn, at least we would have known what we were talking about.

  64. Edit: “a kid I knew in third grade DREW A COMIC called the Adventures of…”

  65. Ever notice fat chicks get the most upset about porn?

  66. But fat guys are its biggest fans.

    Curious, no?

  67. Ever notice fat chicks get the most upset about porn?

    I disagree. Frigid chicks do.

  68. Don’t make us reclaim your decoder ring, smacky! (Feel free to take a drink, folks.) I’m of the belief that we should accept anything that involves willing participants, even if we personally find it disgusting. The range of behaviors that potentially disgust somebody is a little too wide for me to be comfortable with the idea that any such thing shouldn’t be “accepted”.

    Maybe we have a difference in our definitions. I see a difference between “tolerate” and “accept”. One can be tolerant of other people and of various sorts of fetishes/porn/etc. I don’t think that necessarily means that one accepts it, but maybe that’s splitting hairs.

    As for “normal”, I think we need to consider whether we’re talking about “statistically normal” or “OK”. Diaper fetishism is probably not statistically normal. But as long as it’s all consenting adults, so what?

    I’m not complaining about diaper fetishism or even about porn in general. StupendousMan –brillliant though he may be — seemed to be utterly confused that someone wouldn’t want his or her child seeing such stuff at a very young age. The issue is therefore not concerning consenting adults. I was annoyed that he finds the concept of sheltering young children from explicit porn to be completely alien and seemed to be completely dumbfounded by it. That seemed rather troll-ish of him.

  69. Don’t make us reclaim your decoder ring, smacky! (Feel free to take a drink, folks.) I’m of the belief that we should accept anything that involves willing participants, even if we personally find it disgusting. The range of behaviors that potentially disgust somebody is a little too wide for me to be comfortable with the idea that any such thing shouldn’t be “accepted”.

    Maybe we have a difference in our definitions. I see a difference between “tolerate” and “accept”. One can be tolerant of other people and of various sorts of fetishes/porn/etc. I don’t think that necessarily means that one accepts it, but maybe that’s splitting hairs.

    As for “normal”, I think we need to consider whether we’re talking about “statistically normal” or “OK”. Diaper fetishism is probably not statistically normal. But as long as it’s all consenting adults, so what?

    I’m not complaining about diaper fetishism or even about porn in general. StupendousMan –brillliant though he may be — seemed to be utterly confused that someone wouldn’t want his or her child seeing such stuff at a very young age. The issue is therefore not concerning consenting adults. I was annoyed that he finds the concept of sheltering young children from explicit porn to be completely alien and seemed to be completely dumbfounded by it. That seemed rather troll-ish of him.

    Sorry for the double-post; I fixed the italics.

  70. smacky’s post was # 69!

  71. StupendousMan –brillliant though he may be — seemed to be utterly confused that someone wouldn’t want his or her child seeing such stuff at a very young age.

    I didn’t get that impression; I think his point was more than porn itself probably doesn’t harm a kid nearly as much as an hysterical parent learning that her kid saw porn and shrieking OH MY GOD MY BABY MY BABY YOUR POOR SCORCHED EYES!!

  72. I think his point was more than porn itself probably doesn’t harm a kid nearly as much as an hysterical parent learning that her kid saw porn and shrieking OH MY GOD MY BABY MY BABY YOUR POOR SCORCHED EYES!!

    Jennifer,

    I suppose it would depend on a lot of things, like the type of porn, type of person viewing, and other factors. I wasn’t advocating any sort of hysterical reaction, anyway, but maybe a little parental supervision wouldn’t hurt. Then again, what do I know, indeed.

  73. So is it better/worse if your child sees this porn first as comic manga or as photographs of real beings?

  74. Ever notice fat chicks get the most upset about porn?

    I disagree. Frigid chicks do.

    TPG, I believe you are right. I stand corrected.

  75. I wasn’t advocating any sort of hysterical reaction, anyway, but maybe a little parental supervision wouldn’t hurt.

    I think that pretty much applies across the board to child-rearing. Which causes me to raise one of my continuing questions: are there parents anymore in a nice happy medium-range between laissez-faire “let the kids be destructive little monsters” and hyper-parenting asshats who won’t let the kids pee without supervision?

  76. shrieking OH MY GOD MY BABY MY BABY YOUR POOR SCORCHED EYES!!

    I saw a porn like that once.

  77. TPG, I believe you are right. I stand corrected.

    Fat chicks are next in line.

  78. Teens looking at porn are (1) male, and (2) looking for information. In particular, what in the world is the drawing them to this, as if there were something to find out.

    According to Camille Paglia, the guy looking at porn in the bookstore (1991) is looking for an answer to a question ; something which is not revealed! because there is nothing to reveal. It just seems like there ought to be. It does not help that the female genitals are architecturlally chaotic, as she puts it.

    But there’s just the neuron that has started firing, and it leads to all sorts of displacements, and most of the troubles in the world by the way, in the wrong hands.

    Picasso was doing porn in his late porn period until he was 80, leading a woman commentator to speculate, when he suddenly stopped, that he had finally accepted his mortality. No, what had happened was that that neuron finally turned off, and it no longer seemed there was something to answer as to why it was attractively interesting.

    All of feminine modesty and value comes from a simple neuron in the male. Otherwise she’d be all kneecaps, sexually speaking.

    Hysterical, by the way, comes from the word for uterus in Greek.

  79. I think that a lot of the damage done to sexually abused kids is that same “hysterical” reaction we have when we find out about it. Sexual abuse is awful, degrading, and disgusting, but I think we make it worse on the victims by acting as if their life is now completely ruined because of it.

    I’m not talking about pressing charges, etc. (which they definitely SHOULD do, if possible)–I’m just talking about those people who act as if that child is now forever damaged goods and that he or she can never recover from it. I get super annoyed when they act like the victim will now FOR SURE be a child molester when he or she grows up (like that poor kid they found after 4 years). How the hell do they know that for sure? I realize there are statistics supporting that to some extent, but don’t you think that declaring it every 2 minutes is super damaging to the original victim?

    My mom is a perfect example. While she definitely wasn’t sexually abused, she did suffer some abuse as a child at the hands of her father. Several of her sisters used this background as an excuse for them to lead irresponsible and useless lives. My mom, however, decided she wasn’t going to let it ruin her life, and she’s a pretty together person to this day. I would think the damage done by sexual abuse would be similar, but I could be wrong.

    Seriously, though, do you guys think our hysteria over sexual abuse (particularly non-intercourse sexual abuse) contributes to the victims’ pain or am I in left field? And, people, please don’t respond that I somehow think sexual abuse isn’t damaging…just wondering what we all could do to help poor victims of this recover, you know?

  80. Hysterical, by the way, comes from the word for uterus in Greek.

    Amen brother.

  81. I remember my friend brought over a super 8 film projector over to my house at 2:00 a.m. (he knocked on my window) when I was 14. “Dude! you gotta watch this.” And, thus, I was exposed to moving pictures.
    God Bless you Tommy Wilson where ever you are.

  82. I think the general idea is that children are not mature enough to understand the fantasy of pornography as compared to the reality of normal human sexual relationships. Porn illustrates the physical mechanics of sex but says nothing of the other aspects of it.

    It would seem the crusaders could solve this problem by making sexually explicit movies showing those other aspects in whatever way they deem proper. I.e. compete on the free market of ideas. I’m not holding my breath.

    Here’s a question for any libertarian who has children (assuming such a person exists): do you feel totally comfortable with your kids viewing any kind of pornographic images they can access on their computer?

    Do you feel totally comfortable with your kids viewing any kind of pornographic images they can access on your computer? 😉

    OTOH, it hasn’t been that long historically since most kids in this country grew up in one-room cabins, and therefore slept in the same room where their parents were making little brothers and sisters. Worlwide, a majority of the kids may still do so today.

    Even in more complex houses, my parents were the first generation who, because of air conditioning, could actually sleep in their own bedroom with the doors and windows shut.

    Remember the end scenes in the TV show The Waltons? If they could tell each other “good night” from bedroom to bedroom, guess what else they could hear?

    And for almost all of recorded history, most kids by age ten were helping to run farms and ranches where sex was job-related knowledge.

  83. Smacky(inappropriate?)

    “StupendousMan –brillliant though he may be — seemed to be utterly confused that someone wouldn’t want his or her child seeing such stuff at a very young age.”

    Jennifer put it well. I’m certainly don’t think young children should watch porn. But if they happen to see it I don’t think it’s the end of the world.

    And my generalization was just a summary of what I found on a few medical sites- notice I said “one cause” not the cause.

  84. I have known of one case where a person innocently stumbled on online pornography.

    My friend was online, with his very young, car-enthralled son on his lap, looking for pictures of cars.

    At one point, my friend intended to visit “www.mitsubishi.com” but misstyped the URL by one letter, and it took him to a porn site.

    My friend was appalled that such things could happen.

    Of course, the lesson to be learned here is: IF YOU TYPE IN THE WRONG WEB ADDRESS, YOU MIGHT GO TO A WEB PAGE THAT YOU DIDN’T WANT TO GO TO.

    Also: In a house with young kids, filtering software may help reduce such incidents.

  85. That reminds me:

    Some Internet fetish porn is so freaky, it’s hardly even recognizable as naughty or erotic:

    http://www.carstuckgirls.com/

    (The site is probably safe for work, if mildly sexy — most of the models are attractive and attractively dressed for a drive, in a casual girl-next-door-way — albeit odd. I didn’t see any nudity, but I didn’t look through the whole site. Contains some images of mud-wrestling.)

    Disclaimer: I innocently stumbled on this site when searching for images related to the word “Cherokee.”

  86. Hysterical, by the way, comes from the word for uterus in Greek.

    I’m well aware of that. It’s an inherently misogynistic term, implying that any woman can go batshit insane at any time, simply for possessing a uterus.

    Pirate Jo: Go ahead and imply that I am fat or frigid — I certainly don’t “have a problem” with porn. You may have a problem with reading comprehension, though.

  87. I’m well aware of that. It’s an inherently misogynistic term, implying that any woman can go batshit insane at any time, simply for possessing a uterus.

    What, are you saying that’s not true?

  88. Everybody’s sex organs make them insane from time to time. You should see how hilariously lust-nutty guys get when the “Little Hitler” in their pants gives the ol’ Nazi salute.

  89. Smacky, my comments were not directed at you. I was thinking more along the lines of the crazed wife who pasted the photos all over the boat, or the other one mentioned, who freaked out on her 14-year-old son. Some women are obviously very, very insecure about the fact that men like to look at pictures of naked ladies. They are the ones acting weird, not the guys.

  90. Smacky, my comments were not directed at you.

    Pirate Jo,

    Oh…my mistake. I was under the impression that they were, but only because up until that point I had been (to my knowledge) the only female commenter on the thread, and a dissenting viewpoint to boot. Maybe my reading comprehension needs a little work. Sorry ’bout that.

  91. I can remember the first time I accidentally stumbled across porn when I was a teen, during the early years of the ol’ interweb. I also remember accidentally jerking off to it. Numerous times. Accidentally.

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