Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
Drug Raid/Self-Defense Case Brewing in Columbus, Ohio
Last Thursday night, police in Columbus, Ohio raided what they thought was a crack house. Though initial reports say some illicit drugs were found, the police thus far haven't been forthcoming about what type or how much. It's starting to look like the place was instead a gambling house.
When the police busted in, two men—who now say they thought they were being robbed—fired at the door. Two police officers were wounded. Both are likely to survive. The two men are being charged with attempted murder. The police say they announced twice before battering down the door, but at least one witness not in the house at the time says he only heard an order from one officer for "knockers" to break out the windows.
One of the two men who fired at the officers is a former Ohio State University football player named Derrick Foster. Foster says he was playing dice at the house when he heard a loud bang at the door, then heard someone say the place was being robbed. That's when he fired his gun at the men breaking down the door.
Foster hardly fits the profile of a crazed cop killer. He has no criminal record. He isn't suspected of drug activity. He has a legal concealed carry permit for the gun he used in the raid. He works a $60,000/year job as a code inspector for the city of Columbus. His last performance review described him as "an asset to the Near East Side." The other suspect's record is quite a bit more spotty. Still, if Foster genuinely thought the place was about to be robbed—and I think it's more than reasonable to believe him when he says that he did—it's reasonable that the other man would too, criminal record or no.
One again we have a someone facing serious charges for shooting at police during a volatile, confrontational forced entry raid to serve a drug warrant. Again we have injured cops, and again we have a guy who otherwise would have no motivation to want to harm a police officer. But instead of questioning if it's a wise policy to put an ordinary citizen in the perilous position of having to determine in the heat of the moment if the men breaking in on him are cops or criminal intruders, the state has again decided to prosecute the citizen—for making the kind of error in judgment it rarely prosecutes police for making under similar circumstances. And the raids will undoubtedly continue.
|5.4.08 @ 11:56AM|#
I must admit that my race is Caucasian and I'll bet Mr. Foster
is a minority.
I would like to see a statistical analysis of No Knock Raids based
on racial breakdown.
The prosecutor is now in a predicament. Either he prosecutes the
suspect or lose support from law enforcement and ruin his career.
This is what we call a justice system?
ktc2|5.4.08 @ 12:21PM|#
I stopped refering to it as a "justice system" many years ago Jim. I think we should all refuse to give it that bit of legitimacy in our discussions. It is now simply a "legal system" wherein the law no longer serves justice but is an end unto itself.
|5.4.08 @ 12:33PM|#
"Though initial reports say some illicit drugs were found, the
police thus far haven't been forthcoming about what type or how
much."
This, in itself, is an indication that the cops stuck their toe in
the fan.
If there were enough drugs to warrant the raid, there would have
been a press conference to show the table loaded with the dope,
guns, cash, etc that had been found. When they don't do this, it's
because they found so little that they would be laughed at.
Care to bet -- if I dare use that word -- that the "tip" came from
someone who wanted revenge after losing money in the games . .
?
|5.4.08 @ 12:57PM|#
I know I'm not the first person who read this story and thought this to themselves, but: Damn, not again!
tarran|5.4.08 @ 12:58PM|#
They were right; they were being robbed.
The valuables that the gang calling itself "the Columbus PD" were
after wasn't cash, jewelry or electronic gear, but drugs.
But it was a robbery nonetheless.
The fact that the dangerous Columbus PD gang was not trying to
profit from their thefts but to destroy the stuff they stole for
moral reasons is not a mitigating circumstance.
It just means they are no different from other criminal gangs like
the Your Muslim Bakery in Oakland which is, aside from auto theft
and murder and rape of underage girls, is well known for breaking
into liquor stores and trashing them because alcohol consumption is
morally wrong.
|5.4.08 @ 12:59PM|#
It's pretty well established now that the police can do what
they want to citizens with impunity. In rare cases where the
citizen involved is unusually sympathetic or the police misconduct
is 3rd or 4th standard deviation stunning there may be some
consequences for law enforcement, but that's become more unusual
than man bites dog.
We're far past the point where the pattern has been established.
What's the program for doing something about it? Is there anyone
with the influence to change it (politicians, activists, whatever)
making this a talking point? How do we protect such leaders and
movements from becoming targets of the legal system for "unrelated"
reasons?
|5.4.08 @ 1:01PM|#
Having lived less than a block from where this happened, I can say it is certainly reasonable to expect an unannounced banging at the door to be a home invasion of some sort.
Episiarch|5.4.08 @ 1:12PM|#
There will never be a change in these policies--NEVER--until
police are held accountable for fuckups as much as regular
citizens.
So, basically, this will never change. Happy Sunday!
|5.4.08 @ 1:32PM|#
-for making the kind of error in judgment it rarely
prosecutes police for making under similar
circumstances.
Rarely? Do any of the illustrious commenters have knowledge of a
police officer being charged with murder, attempted murder, assault
with a deadly weapon or something similar, for shooting a citizen
during a chaotic confrontational episode like this one?
That is a serious question. A link to a reputable source would be
appreciated.
An aside - Over the last few years, Radley Balko has ruined more of
my Sundays than the Detroit Lions. No small achievement there.
|5.4.08 @ 1:48PM|#
J sub D - if you are just looking for instances where officers are charged, look no further than the Sean Bell case in NYC. Those cops were charged with manslaughter and reckless endangerment, if I'm not mistaken. It wasn't a raid / home invasion, but it was a pretty chaotic scene. bell and co. unarmed, but apparently talking shit, unmarked/plainclothes cops firing 50 shots, bell killed. cops acquitted of all charges.
|5.4.08 @ 1:49PM|#
The valuables that the gang calling itself "the Columbus PD"
were after wasn't cash, jewelry or electronic gear, but
drugs.
I would be willing to bet [D'oh!] the cops seized any cash they
could lay their hands on, and the rightful owners stand a near-zero
chance of ever getting it back.
|5.4.08 @ 1:50PM|#
PS - i haven't heard anything about bell & company being involved in the prostitution etc. these cops were investigating at the strip club outside which this all happened, or in anything illegal when it happened, so they were just regular citizens rather than criminals.
|5.4.08 @ 1:51PM|#
This is ridiculous. It's so frustrating when things like this
happen. I hope some day America changes for the better. People
shouldn't be criminalized for doing something in the privacy of
their own home that is completely non-violent. I loathe the nanny
state.
I have a friend who is going through police academy right now. He
and I were talking the other day about it, and he mentioned that
police basically can't be charged with anything while on the job.
If an officer runs a red light, with or w/o his lights on, even if
he's not chasing a criminal, and he hits you, then you are
responsible for paying the damages. That is completely fucking
proposterous.
Damn.
-Rick
Neil|5.4.08 @ 1:54PM|#
I notice some people like to focus on all the mistakes cops
make.
But the far-left legalization extremists like George Soros et. al
never tell us how many raids go on every day without incidient, or
how many tons of cocaine, marijuana, and heroin were stopped from
polluting the minds of our countrymen.
|5.4.08 @ 1:59PM|#
most of the cops i've met have been honest and fair, and of the mistakes made in performing that obviously difficult job, i'm sure that the vast majority are really, honest mistakes. but shouldn't there be disincentives, consequences, for when police make serious mistakes? i'm talking about things like the no-fault-ever car-crash scenario Rick mentioned above, or much more importantly, the deprivation of a citizen's very life at the hands of a panicky cop. what if a cop really is guilty of negligence or manslaughter in the line of duty? even if we don't focus on criminal prosecutions, some better institutional practices or oversight is necessary. i'm a dark-skinned young man living in NYC, so even though i am law-abiding, this is more than a political or theoretical concern for me.
Garth Strait|5.4.08 @ 2:09PM|#
Let's face it: we live in a Police State, and the majority of our fellow citizens, by supporting the drug war and backing police paramilitary tactics, are fine with that.
Dave B.|5.4.08 @ 2:10PM|#
I'll bite, Neil - How many tons of cocaine, marijuana and heroin
are being kept out of American bodies by these raids? Keep in mind
that the people sent to prison by them still have access to drugs,
as do any people who live in an area with more than one
dealer.
I'd guess that drug consumption is almost completely unaffected by
successful raids. If you have hard evidence to the contrary, I'd
love to know about it.
Neil|5.4.08 @ 2:13PM|#
For all you far-left leagliazatin advocates, you should study
what happened to China when their country ended up addicted to
Opium. They went from a great power to a fifth-rate nation within a
century. The British knew that, thats why they were pushing opium
to the Chinese.
Its the same reason many Islamofascists are behind the drug trade
in the United States today. By polluting our minds and bodies they
can weaken our resolve to fight the global conflict. The War on
Drugs and the War on Terror is really the same ball of wax.
|5.4.08 @ 2:13PM|#
I didn't mean to completely come down on the police. I have had
a few really bad, but also a few really good experiences with
police and the justice system. And hell, even one of my friends is
going to be an officer. My problem is when police are above the
law. One thing I didn't address previously was the catch 22 with
the situation. We all see the obvious problem of the police being
basically untouchable, but if you have an officer always afraid to
do their job for fear of being prosecuted even if they had the best
of intentions, then it could potentially cause them to become less
active towards real criminals. I don't think the big problem is
corrupt officers, so much as it is a problem of policy in lawmaking
in the first place. It's an incredibly difficult situation to deal
with properly, and no matter what you decide, there will be
drawbacks to either side of the argument.
Once again,
Damn.
Neil|5.4.08 @ 2:18PM|#
J Sub D where does legalization end? Are you going to let people buy not only marijuana but cocaine, heroin, and LSD over the counter no questions asked?
Naga Sadow|5.4.08 @ 2:26PM|#
When was China a great power, Neil? Even now, their still not
even an industrial superpower.
Thanks J sub D. Sebacious. I like it. Word for the day. I'll end up
using before I'm off work later.
Naga Sadow|5.4.08 @ 2:28PM|#
Neil,
Whether its over the counter or on a street corner, people will get
the drugs they want.
Neil|5.4.08 @ 2:29PM|#
Yeah and people murder and steal from eachother too. Doesn't mean we should legalize murder or robbery.
Naga Sadow|5.4.08 @ 2:31PM|#
Neil,
No one's arguing to legalize murder or theft. Where is your moral
equivalency argument?
Neil|5.4.08 @ 2:32PM|#
The far-left legalization advocates always say "oh well people
use drugs even when they're illegal".
Yeah well, they commit all kinds of other crimes that are illegal
too. That was my point.
Episiarch|5.4.08 @ 2:32PM|#
OK, I've had it. Whoever is behind Neil, just admit it, get your compliments, and end my curiosity.
Naga Sadow|5.4.08 @ 2:36PM|#
Far left legalization advocates? Sounds awfully similiar to "vast right wing conspiracy". Other illegal crimes? Such as?
Kolohe|5.4.08 @ 2:37PM|#
Its the same reason many Islamofascists are behind the drug
trade in the United States today. By polluting our minds and bodies
they can weaken our resolve to fight the global
conflict.
If there was such a thing as the 'Al Queda East India Company' you
may have stumbled upon an interesting historical analogy.
As it is, if Deadwood isn't lying to me, there were plenty of dope
fiends in the population that spread from sea to shining sea during
the same period as the opium wars.
Naga Sadow|5.4.08 @ 2:38PM|#
Episiarch,
I suspect that "Neil" is an FBI, ATF, or DEA agent. Keepin' tabs on
the "radicals" and what not.
Neil|5.4.08 @ 2:39PM|#
Er, its not a secret that George Soros a far-left liberal activist and billionaire is funding many of these legalization outfits.
tarran|5.4.08 @ 2:40PM|#
Well, given the drugs were outlawed because
1) Black men who smoked marijuana thought they were just a s good
as a white man, and women who liked Jazz (the gangster rap of the
30's) were known to get high and have sex with black
musicians
2) Chinese people liked opium and the U.S. governemnt had a policy
of doing everything needed to keep Asiatics (as they called them)
from permanently settling in the U.S.
Essentially, I think neil is trying to preserve the purity of the
white race. He and his friends may have lost the battle to keep
people of different races from marrying each other, but they are
not going to surrender and allow the U.S. to become a free country
where people are allowed to do what they want so long as they are
not injuring another.
It is notable that people who are into national socialism of the
type that McCain promotes tend to frown on people taking drugs or
behaving in other unhealthy ways since they want their cannon
fodder to be as healthy as possible when they show up at boot
camp.
Episiarch|5.4.08 @ 2:41PM|#
No, "Neil" is performance art by--probably--VM. He cannot be real, as he is too much the exemplification of a neocon. It's too perfect, so it has to be an excellent hoax.
Naga Sadow|5.4.08 @ 2:41PM|#
Kolohe,
There have always been drugs, drug users, and drug abusers.
Alexander the Great was a drunk. Marcus Aurelias was an opium
addict.
Naga Sadow|5.4.08 @ 2:44PM|#
Funding legalization outfits you say? The capitalist in me knows
its wrong but me thinks I wanna rent seek from the
billionaire.
*shuffles papers around, places DARE poster on his wall*
ktc2|5.4.08 @ 2:45PM|#
Could be, or more likely just some right wing loon looking for a debate. Sorry "Neil" there is no debate, the facts are in, the lies are old. There is not even so much as a "good faith" position left in favor of prohibition. It continues to be a complete failure that does more harm than good.
|5.4.08 @ 2:46PM|#
Neil,
Actually the advocates for legalization include lots of
conservatives. These are the folks who have taken the time to
understand the situation on the ground and remember their basic
economics. They realize how much damage drug prohibition is causing
to civil society.
And here is a clue for you. If you can't keep drugs out of prison
you are not going to keep them out of an open society.
The only question to be answered is how much additional damage do
you want to cause to society by going through the motions of drug
prohibition.
Mike|5.4.08 @ 2:46PM|#
Neil,
When exactly was China a third world country? Isolationist, yes,
but third world....not so much. Those opium smokers invented gun
powder, and were not so far behind us on nukes you recall. Opium
has been around a long, long time Neil, the British didn't
introduce it to the Chinese, the opposite is true.
China, and most of Asia for that matter, is a throughly fucked up
part of the world, but don't let your arrogance get ahead of you,
they kicked our asses back below the 38th in Korea(with the help of
narcotics, btw)So you might watch the name calling. Oh, and China
was never part of the British Empire, unlike most of the rest of
the world-how'd that happen? Its not like the British just left
third world countries alone.
Besides, this thread is about police abuse of power, not drug
legalization-something that effects the left and the right.
Jackass
Naga Sadow|5.4.08 @ 2:49PM|#
Neil,
Why not place your telephone number on the thread like Dondero?
When I use it to look up your address and make an unsubstantuated
"tip" to your local police department, no worries right?
Kolohe|5.4.08 @ 2:49PM|#
Naga-
Agreed. That was what I was trying to say in the last
sentence.
When looking up the facts on the opium war - in wikipedia, of
course - I found it interesting that the last
paragraph of the 'war' section could have be written by Neil
(and I'm guessing the chinese version of him)
Untermensch|5.4.08 @ 2:53PM|#
I understand that they are also trying to poison Neil's precious bodily fluids...
|5.4.08 @ 3:02PM|#
Neil: "...or how many tons of cocaine, marijuana, and heroin
were stopped from polluting the minds of our countrymen."
Not to mention all the white women saved from the depradations of
darkies/spics/chinks.
ktc2|5.4.08 @ 3:14PM|#
"And the raids will undoubtedly continue."
Of course they will. Who's going to stop them? The only people who
would benefit from stopping them are "we the people" and nobody in
politics or the legal system gives a damn about them. They only
pretend to close to elections.
The politicians and judges get to look "tough on crime".
The police get more neat gear, more power, more ill gained
forfeiture money and get to play soldier against almost always
defenseless people to boost their egos all with out any negative
consequences to themselves (okay, except the EXTREMELY rare officer
shooting).
So who is going to stop it?
|5.4.08 @ 3:15PM|#
The Columbus PD had problems a few years ago.They involved in so many high speed chases and accidents over trivial matters.there were many people hurt and a few killed. What changed the policy wasn't public outrage,but,the insurance companies.They were getting stuck for the bill to repair the damage caused by the police.In Ohio,if a cop hits you and their at fault your insurance pays.Fully one half of all Ohio State Patrol accidents the trooper is at fault.Great training.
DroneMonk|5.4.08 @ 3:20PM|#
We've graduated from crypto-fascist to proto-fascist.
All hail the state!
I will now set myself on fire...
the innominate one|5.4.08 @ 3:24PM|#
Neil, you ignorant slut.
The difference is that murder, rape, assault, robbery, etc. are
illegal because those behaviors infringe on the rights of others.
Someone taking any kind of drug for recreational purposes does not,
in and of itself, constitute violation of others' persons or
property rights.
|5.4.08 @ 3:29PM|#
"IN/TAC officers are trained for such raids and make eight
to 12 a week across the city, police said."
8 to 12 such raids A WEEK? In one city in Ohio. That many a year in
the country is worth a hard skeptical look.
|5.4.08 @ 3:44PM|#
I fail to see how people advocating free markets for drugs are "far-left". That would be the same plank that would like to outlaw or regulate cigarettes out of existence on the basis they are bad for you and the people selling them are inherently evil. Intolerance and sticking ones nose in everyone else's business is spread pretty evenly across the political spectrum. Unfortunately, those sorts seem to be drawn to certain professions.
ktc2|5.4.08 @ 3:45PM|#
So what's the next step? If these situations are so dangerous
what's next when this fails or because too dangerous FOR OFFICER
SAFETY?
Just get a warrant, blow up the entire house without warning and
sift through the rubble and bodies for evidence?
ktc2|5.4.08 @ 3:47PM|#
So I guess far right would be subsidizing the drug
industry?
Drug cartel welfare? (Pretty much what prohibition is)
And far left would be subsidizing drug buyers?
Pot stamps?
|5.4.08 @ 4:12PM|#
OH HAI GUYZ: If you argue with Neil, then you just really like to type words on the internet. There's no other serious reason to do what you're doing. He's a really obvious fake.
|5.4.08 @ 4:24PM|#
Neil,
One argument you seem to be making is that the Qing dynasty
stagnated because of the opium trade. What evidence do you have for
this exactly? It is my understanding that China was stagnating long
before the Opium Wars and that the outcome of the Opium Wars were
merely a sympton of government policies which had led to economic
stagnation in the 17th and 18th centuries. Do you have any evidence
to counter my statement?
|5.4.08 @ 4:33PM|#
Neil,
In other words, China stagnated in the 17th and 18th centuries in
siginificant part because it curtailed trade with the outside
world, because of overtaxation, and like measures. This also
coincided with dramatic population growth and the pressures such
brings to any society. Opium had little to do with it.
|5.4.08 @ 4:39PM|#
"Just get a warrant, blow up the entire house without warning
and sift through the rubble and bodies for evidence?"
Hell, why bother with a warrant? Just declare the suspects are
enemy combatants and be done with it.
Not A Fan|5.4.08 @ 4:44PM|#
"Neil" is performance art by--probably--VM.
No, there isn't enough of that Viking Moose vibe to be him. You
know, the whole "letting random non sequitur shit plop out of my
brain means I'm really creative" thing.
ktc2|5.4.08 @ 4:45PM|#
Because obtaining the rubber stamp from some judge who never
even looks at the papers involved makes it all
"constitutional".
It'd be too much bother to get Bush (and cronies) to personally
declare "enemy combatant" status on every poor household in the
country.
ktc2|5.4.08 @ 4:51PM|#
Oh wait, nm. Here is the next step:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354107,00.html
Of course the 9 inJustices of the SCOTUS will have to declare their
use to not be a search, which they'll gladly due for the "war on
drugs" and "officer safety", you know compelling interest of the
state and all.
|5.4.08 @ 5:33PM|#
J sub D - if you are just looking for instances where
officers are charged, look no further than the Sean Bell case in
NYC. Those cops were charged with manslaughter and reckless
endangerment, if I'm not mistaken.
sv, I'd mometarily forgotten that. Now that you've kindly jogged my
memory, I also recall that some accused the prosecution of throwing
the game. As I wasn't in the courtroom, that's an interpretation I
can neither honestly support nor oppose.
ktc2|5.4.08 @ 5:53PM|#
J sub D,
I found it revealing that none of the cops wanted a JURY trial. I
don't think they would have fared as well, even with today's
perversley manipulated juries.
Warmongering Lunatic|5.4.08 @ 5:54PM|#
Why the hell should it matter if they yelled "Police" or not? I
imagine 4 out of 5 home-invasion robbers are perfectly capable of
yelling "Police!" if they choose to. Properly identifying
yourselves as police should require something more than yelling the
word.
If you knock down someone's door and you get shot, well, that's
just your fucking tough luck. If you don't want to be mistaken for
a thug by an armed civilian, don't fucking act like one.
|5.4.08 @ 6:09PM|#
Why the hell should it matter if they yelled "Police" or
not? I imagine 4 out of 5 home-invasion robbers are perfectly
capable of yelling "Police!" if they choose to. Properly
identifying yourselves as police should require something more than
yelling the word.
Sort of like a 100-pound woman driving along a dark, empty country
road in the middle of the night is expected to pull over
immediately for any unmarked car with flashing blue lights, or else
risk being charged with resisting arrest.
It's funny how "safety of the officer" is seen as justification for
giving police vast room for error in their duties, but no concept
of "safety of innocent people" seems to be active to give
'civilians' leeway in their dealings with cops.
|5.4.08 @ 6:10PM|#
re: Ktc2@4:51
...and of course it will become a felony offense to destroy them.
Hell, they could deputize the little critters and make their
destruction a capitol offense! They'll have grand funerals for them
and hundreds of LEOs will attend to show their solidarity with
their automated brothers in arms. The excuse that you thought it
was a real spider, snake, etc. will be disrergarded.
|5.4.08 @ 6:11PM|#
"I imagine 4 out of 5 home-invasion robbers are perfectly
capable of yelling "Police!" if they choose to."
Solution: Increase prison sentences for impersonating an
officer.
ktc2|5.4.08 @ 6:16PM|#
A.D.,
Sounds like the police have solved the problem. By NOT yelling
POLICE! or attempting to identify themselves in anyway the
(illegal) thugs wont because it'd be a sure give away that they
aren't cops.
|5.4.08 @ 6:17PM|#
Shirt,
I think the rationale the SCOTUS has been using is that using an
animal or device that can relay no information to officers besides
the presence of an illegal substance or the occurrence of an
illegal act is not a search for 4th amendment purposes.
You may disagree with that rationale, but it would seem to exclude
streaming video from "spy"-ders.
Michael Ejercito|5.4.08 @ 6:26PM|#
I stopped refering to it as a "justice system" many years ago Jim. I think we should all refuse to give it that bit of legitimacy in our discussions. It is now simply a "legal system" wherein the law no longer serves justice but is an end unto itself.
So why do you submit to it?
Michael Ejercito|5.4.08 @ 6:30PM|#
What's the program for doing something about it?
Here is a few hints.
Our criminal justice system can not function without a financial
system to pay the enforcers, roads and rails to bring in food to
feed the enforcers, water treatment plants and aqueducts to provide
the enforcers with clean water, sewage treatment plants to ensure
that the enforcers live in a sanitary environment.
|5.4.08 @ 6:47PM|#
It's funny how "safety of the officer" is seen as
justification for giving police vast room for error in their
duties, but no concept of "safety of innocent people" seems to be
active to give 'civilians' leeway in their dealings with
cops.
It's also funny that citizens are held to a higher standard in
confusing, chaotic situations that those "highly trained
professionals" are.
I though it was a gun. I didn't realize it was a remote
control.
I though he was going for a weapon, I didn't realize he was
grabbing a towel because he was standing there naked in the
bathroom.
I shot the woman holding a baby because ...
Who knows what lame excuse will be trotted out in that one.
Highly trained professionals. Lte's give them automatic weapons,
grenades and turm 'em loose on society.
|5.4.08 @ 7:06PM|#
I shot the woman holding a baby because ...
Who knows what lame excuse will be trotted out in
that one.
Will? Google "Lon Horiuchi".
|5.4.08 @ 8:33PM|#
Will? Google "Lon Horiuchi".
Actually, I was referring to Tarika Wilson in Lima, Ohio. I decided
to find out about the case since it came up. Now remember these two
guys in Radley Balko's post are being charged with a felony,
attempted murder. So let's find out about Tarika's killer, shall
we?
From the Channel
24, an NBC affiliate in Toledo -
Sgt. Joseph Chavalia, the veteran officer who fired the fatal
shot, pleaded not guilty to negligent homicide in Tarika Wilson's
death and to negligent assault in the injuries to her 1-year-old
son, whom she was holding. If convicted of both charges, the
maximum penalty would be eight months in jail.
Wilson's family said the 26-year-old was an unarmed, innocent
bystander in the SWAT raid. Her brother and the Lima NAACP office
said Monday that the misdemeanor charges should have been more
severe.
Citizens injure officers breaking into their home? Felony attempted
murder.
Cop kills unarmed woman holding a baby? Misdemeanor negligent
homicide.
As ktc2 pointed out, it's a legal system, about laws. Not a justice
system.
Self Governor|5.4.08 @ 9:25PM|#
The difference between anarchy and a policestate is that with anrachy one knows that it is the right thing to open fire when masked men bust down one's door.
|5.4.08 @ 9:35PM|#
Of course its been a non-stop police SWAT PR barrage/victory
parade ever since.
The "brave" officers who "saved" their fellow officers lives from
these bad bad men, The local news riding along with the SWAT ( well
actually called in/TAC or something like that)teams in their
all-black unmarked paramilitary uniforms, the news anchors cheering
on the home invasions along with bloodshed in iraq,- yeah I'd say
the policy isn't going to change any time soon.
The perception is these tactics are needed to deal with these
violent cop killing drug dealers...
Elemenope|5.4.08 @ 10:02PM|#
doesn't the rest of that go, "with the blood of
patriots"?
You catch on quick.
Hat Pines|5.4.08 @ 10:17PM|#
Have any of you read post-apocalyptic fiction? they give great ideas on the conditions in which a police state can collapse into chaos.
|5.4.08 @ 10:33PM|#
An important point is brought up by commenters who point out the media's fawning hero-worship of SWAT-cops and paramilitary tactics in dealing with suspects, and the public's seeming acceptance that in general law enforcement/judges 'know best' and have too many restrictions on them as it is (every action movie too, in the Dirty Harry vein) -- fear is mainstreamed in our society. the protectors (cops) are the only ones keeping the howling masses of suspects/crooks/sociopathic armed-to-the-teeth-psycho-killer-drug-dealers at bay. i think a common response to all this is probably, you see the danger of keeping guns in the home? if they didn't have guns then this wouldn't have happened in the first place. only the brave policemen should have guns.
robc|5.4.08 @ 11:26PM|#
sv,
doesn't the rest of that go, "with the blood of
patriots"?
Im pretty sure it is "with the blood of patriots and
tyrants".
Important 2 words you left off. After all, they are who we are
discussing.
|5.4.08 @ 11:57PM|#
how many tons of cocaine, marijuana, and heroin were stopped
from polluting the minds of our countrymen.
Last I read, drug interdiction catches something like five percent
of the drugs consumed in the USA. So, for all we spend and all the
liberty we've lost, anyone who wants to scramble their brains can
still do so.
It's time to end the war on drugs. There are far too many civilian
casualties.
-jcr
|5.4.08 @ 11:59PM|#
If you can't keep drugs out of prison you are not going to
keep them out of an open society.
IIRC, the only regime I know of that nearly succeeded in stamping
out drugs was the Taliban in Afghanistan. If I have to choose
between some of my neighbors offing themselves with drugs, or cops
killing innocent people, I know which one I'd choose.
-jcr
|5.5.08 @ 12:21AM|#
It's time to end the war on drugs. There are far too many
civilian casualties.
-jcr
And that's the bloody shame of it. The cops no longer think of
themselves as citizens, but as soldiers. In an occupying army.
Cactus|5.5.08 @ 12:46AM|#
If they can't be held accountable by the justice system then they have to be discouraged by making these raids as costly as possible by ensuring that as many of the home invaders come out in body bags as possible. The first time an innocent home owner greases the entire entry team and it makes national news then maybe the situation will be addressed. As of now all of the whining and bitching isn't doing a damn bit of good. The politicians and generals in charge of the paramilitaries aren't listening and the courts don't seem to want to hold them accountable.
Hat Pines|5.5.08 @ 1:11AM|#
This is right, Cactus. why should we even respect the authority of the courts? Without the sheriff they are nothing. It is clear that the sheriffs are enemies of America.
|5.5.08 @ 1:36AM|#
robc,
good point. i forgot the full aphorism.
this conversation's veered off into less pragmatic territory,
although the helplessness we feel at the hands (guns) of the state
leaves us few alternatives. i'm waiting for some federal authority
to do a God-like takeover of this particular URL and announce that
we're all under investigation for sedition.
boo!
Hat Pines|5.5.08 @ 3:36AM|#
this conversation's veered off into less pragmatic territory,
although the helplessness we feel at the hands (guns) of the state
leaves us few alternatives.
How are the Iraqi insurgents dealing with the tyranny?
Paul|5.5.08 @ 4:04AM|#
Though initial reports say some illicit drugs were found
Well of course they did. Did we expect anything different?
|5.5.08 @ 4:48AM|#
"The fact that the dangerous Columbus PD gang was not trying to
profit from their thefts but to destroy the stuff they stole for
moral reasons is not a mitigating circumstance."
Actually, Tarran, I think they were trying to profit from their
theft. The property forfeiture laws generally allow the stolen
goods (the house, the money, the cars, etc.) to become the property
of the felonious police department that confiscates them.
VM|5.5.08 @ 7:25AM|#
Hi Epi -
"Kneel" is probably "Edweirdo" and that crowd. Maybe a Dan T
incarnation - at least that is our speculation at URKOBOLD. but
he's definitely performance art.
Thank you Radley for brining these stories to the light of
day!!
ktc2|5.5.08 @ 8:51AM|#
Cactus,
As I said earlier when these type raids become too dangerous for
the cops they will simply move on to worse tactics. Tactics far
more dangerous to innocent citizens all in the name of "officer
safety".
|5.5.08 @ 12:21PM|#
i'm waiting for some federal authority to do a God-like takeover of this particular URL and announce that we're all under investigation for sedition.
If you aren't on a government list somewhere, you're doing
something wrong.
|5.5.08 @ 12:39PM|#
I have had it with the double standard. Paramilitary cops
breaking into some one's home get shot, which they richly deserve,
and the citizen is prosecuted. Paramilitary cops breaking into some
one's home shoot and kill handcuffed women and children laying on
the floor and nothing is done to the swine at all. WTF, OVER!? If
they are even charged, very rare, they always get off
completely.
Being a cop is NOT a dangerous job, in fact police officer barely
makes the top twenty for dangerous jobs in the US, so stop crying
about how tough you have it and man up you sissies.
End the war on drugs and the crime rate in this country will go
down over 80%, it is an infringement on your rights as a free
person, why you nanny staters go along with this outrage, I will
never understand.
|5.5.08 @ 2:22PM|#
"Yeah well, they commit all kinds of other crimes that are
illegal too."
Begging the question, much? Of course crimes are illegal, and all
things illegal are crimes. But if they are not a "crime" in the
first place, then they shouldn't be illegal. Responsible drug
users, aka responsible drinkers and drug users, are of no
consequence to society. The crazies will always be here, but it
looks like "Niel" has unfortunately skipped town.
|5.5.08 @ 7:13PM|#
"But the far-left legalization extremists like George Soros et.
al never tell us how many raids go on every day without incidient,
or how many tons of cocaine, marijuana, and heroin were stopped
from polluting the minds of our countrymen."
Too bad. Now they'll have to go back to polluting their minds with
government-supported alcohol.
Drugs are drugs. There is no rational reason that drinking alcohol
and smoking tobacco are national pastimes, while using most other
recreational drugs is a crime. It's simply a matter of irrational
prejudice, racism, the greed of the pharmaceutical lobby, and the
greed of the alcohol lobby.
Let's compare alcohol to marijuana. Alcohol is toxic, marijuana is
non-toxic. Alcohol is physically addictive, marijuana is not
physically addictive. Alcohol kills brain cells, marijuana does not
kill brain cells. Alcohol destroys the liver. Marijuana has no
effect on the liver. Alcohol precipitates acts of violence.
Marijuana precipitates acts of silliness. Alcohol makes people
think they can drive like Mario Andretti. Marijuana makes people
think they are far more impaired than they really are, leading to
driving slowly and cautiously.
Alcohol and tobacco, our government-approved recreational drugs,
kill almost 600,000 Americans every year. In 5,000 years of
recorded history, marijuana has never killed anyone.
It should be up to the individual which recreational drugs he
chooses to use, not the government. When there are much healthier
and safer alternatives to the recreational drugs of which the
government approves, it makes the government complicit in the
deaths of millions.
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245