The Volokh Conspiracy
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Is the Federal Prohibition on Felon Firearm Possession Constitutional?
Judge Willett thinks that some federal statutes have been interpreted and applied in ways that conflict with the notion that the federal government only has limited and enumerated powers.
Arnett Jackson Bonner has multiple felony convictions. This means he cannot possess a firearm. Under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1), convicted felons may not "possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce." Because almost all firearms have been shipped or transported across state lines, this operates as a ban on firearm possession. Is this prohibition constitutional?
Current Supreme Court precedent provides that the federal government is one of limited and enumerated powers, and that the federal government's most expansive powers--to regulate commerce among the several states--is not a plenary power to regulate anything and everything, even when supplemented with the Necessary and Proper Clause. On this basis, in United States v. Lopez, the Court held that a prohibition on possessing guns in schools exceeded Congress' power to regulate commerce (even though the defendant in that case was facilitating a commercial transaction).
Statutes such as § 922(g)(1) seek to satisfy Lopez by including a jurisdictional element--in this case a requirement that the possession be "in or affecting commerce" or that the gun received crossed state lines--so as not to exceed the scope of the commerce power. But is it that easy? Jurisdictional elements written so broadly would seem to make a mockery of the idea that Congress' powers are limited and enumerated.
This is the view of at least two judges on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. In United States v. Bonner, Judge Willett wrote a separate concurring opinion (joined by Judge Duncan), suggesting a need to revisit the scope of jurisdictional elements such as those in § 922(g)(1), as well as to consider whether such broad prohibitions are consistent with the Second Amendment. (The opinion was just a concurrence because circuit precedent foreclosed Bonner's constitutional challenges to his conviction.)
The Commerce Clause portion of the concurrence reads:
"Every law enacted by Congress must be based on one or more of its powers enumerated in the Constitution." And although those powers "are sizable, . . . they are not unlimited." That means, among other things, Congress has no power to enact a comprehensive criminal code. As Chief Justice Marshall—no skeptic of national power—explained, "It is clear, that Congress cannot punish felonies generally." In short, not everything we may want to criminalize can be criminalized by the federal government. For example, "Congress has a right to punish murder in a fort, or other place within its exclusive jurisdiction," but it has "no general right to punish murder committed within any of the States."
As relevant here, § 922(g)(1) makes it "unlawful for any person . . . who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year . . . to . . . possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition." On its face, the phrase "in or affecting commerce" might appear to require a genuine commercial nexus— placing § 922(g)(1) squarely within Congress's power "[t]o regulate Commerce . . . among the several States," or perhaps within its authority "[t]o make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution" that power. But in Scarborough v. United States, the Supreme Court interpreted § 922(g)(1)'s predecessor far more broadly, reading "in or affecting commerce" to demand no more than "the minimal nexus that the firearm have been, at some time, in interstate commerce." Applying that interpretation to § 922(g)(1), we have held that the Government need show only that a firearm was manufactured in one State and later discovered in another. The Supreme Court has gone further still, suggesting that a defendant need not even know the firearm ever crossed state lines.
So construed, it is difficult to see how § 922(g)(1) honors the principle of enumerated powers. In United States v. Lopez, the Supreme Court "identified three broad categories of activity that Congress may regulate under its commerce power." "First, Congress may regulate the use of the channels of interstate commerce. Second, Congress is empowered to regulate and protect the instrumentalities of interstate commerce, or persons or things in interstate commerce, even though the threat may come from intrastate activities. Finally, Congress' commerce authority includes the power to regulate those activities having a substantial relation to interstate commerce, i.e., those activities that substantially affect interstate commerce."
Mere possession of a firearm fits uneasily within any of these categories. The closest candidate might be "activities that substantially affect interstate commerce"—after all, some have argued that "widespread, firearm-related crime" has a substantial effect on the national economy. But whatever the effect of such "widespread" crime, the economic consequences of Bonner's individual act of possession is hardly "substantial." At best, § 922(g)(1) can meet the substantial-effects test only by aggregating the impact of all firearm possession by felons. Yet aggregation is ordinarily appropriate only when the underlying activity is economic—and firearm possession is not. As the Supreme Court explained in United States v. Morrison, "[t]he Constitution requires a distinction between what is truly national and what is truly local." And it is, indeed, "hard to imagine a more local crime than this."
While we have acknowledged the force of this objection, we have "regard[ed] Scarborough . . . as barring the way." But it was not Scarborough's holding that led us to that conclusion; as we have noted, "Scarborough addresses only questions of statutory construction, and does not expressly purport to resolve any constitutional issue." Instead, we have relied on what we took to be Scarborough's "implication of constitutionality." Yet a decision like Scarborough—in which the Commerce Clause "was not at issue, and was not so much as mentioned in the opinion"—is "scant authority" on the meaning of that Clause. In concluding otherwise, we have strayed from the Supreme Court's considered interpretations of the Commerce Clause in Lopez, Morrison, and NFIB v. Sebelius, and from its admonition that "[q]uestions which merely lurk in the record, neither brought to the attention of the court nor ruled upon, are not to be considered as having been so decided as to constitute precedents."
The pseudonymous Anti-Federalist Brutus objected to Congress's powers under the new Constitution, fearing that "implication" would "extend" them "to almost every thing." He also warned that the Judiciary would become an instrument for enlarging federal authority, predicting that we would "extend the limits of the general government gradually" through "a series of determinations," ultimately "facilitati[ng] the abolition of the state governments." Our reliance on Scarborough combines these fears: our decisions now expand federal power not by remote implication from the constitutional text, but by remote implication from our own precedents.
While Brutus's fears of the total abolition of the States may have been overstated, the steady expansion of federal power has nonetheless deprived the States of much of their freedom to pursue innovative, locally tailored solutions to vexing problems. Most debates over felon disarmament focus on the Second Amendment (which I address below). But there is also a serious question about whether some individuals who may constitutionally be disarmed should nevertheless have their rights restored. In the system the Framers designed, the States could—within constitutional bounds—serve "as laboratories for devising solutions" to that "difficult legal problem[]." By contrast, in the world § 922(g)(1) has created (and we have blessed), such experimentation is foreclosed by the long arm of the general government— much like the world Brutus feared.
* * *
As one of our colleagues has observed, "our circuit precedent dramatically expands the reach of the federal government under the Commerce Clause. No Supreme Court precedent requires it. And no proper reading of the Commerce Clause permits it."31 That alone is reason enough for the full court—or, if need be, the Supreme Court—to take up the question and reexamine our precedent.
If federal power to regulate commerce among the several states is limited--that is, if it is not a plenary power to reach any and all activity--§ 922(g)(1) cannot be read as broadly as current precedent suggests. To hold that Congress may regulate any activity that is conducted with any object that has crossed state lines or been bought or sold in interstate commerce is to obliterate the limits on federal power recognized in Lopez, Morrison, and NFIB. It is to treat commerce not as something to be regulated, but as a contagion that infects everything it touches, subjecting it to federal regulation and control.
Current law does not hold that once an individual has traveled or participated in interstate commerce, that person is eternally subject to federal regulation and control without regard for what activities they engage in (see, e.g., NFIB). There is no reason to treat objects differently. It is one thing to regulate articles in commerce as part of a regulatory scheme covering such commerce. It is quite another to say that such articles can always be regulated. Thus Alfonso Lopez could have been prosecuted for bringing a gun to school for the purposes of completing a gun sale, but it was impermissible to prosecute him merely for possessing a gun in a designated place (the school zone). The former could be understood as a regulation of commerce, the latter is not.
It seems to me that the analysis required by Lopez and its progeny should first identify the activity (or class of activities) subject to regulation, and then consider whether that class is economic in nature, or sufficiently related to economic activity that its regulation is a necessary part of a broader regulatory scheme. This approach would account for the Court's post-Lopez decisions (including the misstep in Gonzales v. Raich) while maintaining limits on federal power. It might, however, require reevaluating the constitutionality of statutory provisions like § 922(g)(1), or at least reconsidering the basis upon which such prohibitions could be considered constitutional.
And although it's beyond the scope of this post, Judge Willett's concerns about how to reconcile his circuit's precedent interpreting and applying § 922(g)(1) with Bruen are worth a read too.
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A prohibition on possession is a necessary and proper exercise of the power of congress to prohibit the sale and acquisition of such arms in commerce.
Unlike in Raich, there is no federal statute prohibiting the sale of firearms implicated in § 922(g)(1).
But Congress doesn't have that power, either. Legitimately, the most they could do is prohibit the interstate sale of a firearm to a felon. (And it's arguable that the 2nd amendment deprived them of even that much legitimate authority.) But once the firearm is in a state, further sales to other people in that state are no longer interstate commerce.
I fully agree. But that interpretation is not consistent with Raich. The feds could claim that the prohibition on interstate felon sales cannot be effectively administered if intrastate felon possession is allowed.
They could argue it but it would be a nonsensical argument.
That's straight up the holding in Raich. Although I agree it is too expansive, it is binding precedent.
Is there a federal prohibition on the interstate sale of firearms to felons, separate and apart from the prohibition on possession? Or are you saying that the latter is actually the former?
When I commented above, I thought the prohibition was only on possession. But wvattorney is correct. § 922(g)(1) does not allow felons to "ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce" these firearms. Thus, I'm now persuaded the logic of Raich applies to this prohibition on possession as well.
As others have said, the constitution gives the federal government no general power over commerce. It only gives it the much more limited power over interstate commerce. Commerce that is entirely within a state is a purely state matter and no business of the federal government.
And simple posesssion isn’t even commerce.
As Scalia said in Raich:
Scalia wasn't at his best here. The progression of that is untenable.
Congress has limited powers. It is necessary and proper to effectively administer those limited powers by claiming all powers. Therefore they have all powers.
That cannot be the correct interpretation. There was no point to limiting powers if it all collapses into "everything."
You can't really understand these sorts of rulings if you don't realize that the Court interprets "necessary and proper" to mean, "convenient, and eh, whatever".
From McCulloch v. Maryland:
Admittedly, about 90% of the problem lies in that "eh, whatever".
What does that guy know?
I quote from that opinion repeatedly, partially since some people think original understanding is important & he was there.
Doesn't change any minds from what I can tell.
The limitation is a regulation of non-economic activity that is not necessary to make a larger permissible regulation effective is not permitted.
But Raich gives the blueprint for any such regulation to become "necessary." I mean, you could certainly outlaw the interstate transportation of marijuana without prohibiting the in state possession.
Just because the latter makes it marginally easier to police the former does not mean it is "necessary and proper" to do so even giving Marshall the point that the word does not mean absolutely physically necessary.
Raich provided no blueprint for resurrecting the law struck down in Morrison.
By the same token, congress would have the power to prohibit the sale and acquisition of magazines in commerce.
Constitutional law professors seem like relics now.
If the challenger here is successful, will the next targets be Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States, 379 U.S. 241 (1964), and Katzenbach v. McClung, 379 U.S. 294 (1964)?
The only thing that has had a greater economic impact on the former Jim Crow sates than the abolition of de jure segregation is the widespread availability of air conditioning.
Heart of Atlanta and Katzenbach involve economic activity (even without the jurisdictional hook). Per Lopez and Raich, gun possession (absent the jurisdictional hook) does not.
I would think that a hotel that systemaatically only serves people within the state, by e.g. requiring and documenting an in-state drivers license, would be exempt. Without interstate travel, there can be no racial discrimination in interstate travel, which is what Heart of Atlanta was concerned with.
Do you think there would be a lot of hotels that would do this? And if such a small handful do as not to have any major effect on anything, why would it bother you?
Under current legal 'reasoning', that hotel would be affecting the overall market in hotel rooms, which does serve interstate travelers, and so wouldn't be exempt.
The current legal 'reasoning', is just sophistry to reduce the commerce clause to "To regulate;".
I agree. The cleanest way to solve the problem is that the commerce clause gives the feds the power to regulate interstate commerce. Full stop.
It does not give the government the power to regulate anything that "affects" interstate commerce. That step is a wild expansion of the power.
Most people might agree that you can somewhat regulate what goes on with your kids. But you can't expand that to anything that affects your kids such that you are ordering your own raise at work so the kids can take nicer vacations. The second is simply not part of the first.
The "cleanest way" calls into question both Heart of Atlanta and Katzenbach.
I'm fine with that. If the electorate actually WANT the federal government to have that extensive of power over local commerce, Article V beckons.
Heart of Atlanta survives because the hotel regularly served interstate travelers. Katzinbach survives because it regularly served food coming from out of state, if interstate commerce is conceived of as a stream that ends with a retail sale.
But if a restaurant, unlike the one in Katzenbach, was careful to serve only locally farmed food, it would be exempt. Similarly if a motel, unlike the one in Heart of Atlanta, was careful to serve only in-state customers, it would also be exempt.
You could get an exemption for both a motel and a restaurant. But you’d have to work rather hard and incur a lot of costs to do it. It’s not likely that a whole lot of restaurants and motels would want to do so.
The guns covered by this statute were almost certainly manufactured in one state (at least parts of it) and sold in (or transported to) another state.
And the federal interest in them ended with the final retail sale, when interstate commerce ended.
It’s well established that government can ban COMMERCIAL sex. Is it your position that the federal government can ban (say) sodomy if it takes place on a bed that previously passed through interstate commerce? That makes it commercial sex, not private sex, right? No different from prostitution, right? If “interstate commerce” covers the mere personal possession or use of things that previously previously passed through interstate commerce, it would appear unassailablly clear that it could.
Per Lawrence v, Texas, sodomy bans violate the 14th Amendment. It's not a federalism issue.
We’re talking here only about COMMERCIAL sodomy, sodomy that’s part of, or has a substantial affect on, interstate commerce. That was explicitly exempted from Lawrence. Lawrence isn’t affected. noncommercial sodomy, sodomy outside the reach of the Commerce Clause, remains protected.
Right. Prostitution can still be outlawed.
But you asked "Is it your position that the federal government can ban (say) sodomy if it takes place on a bed that previously passed through interstate commerce?" If it isn't commercial sex, the answer is "no" because of Lawrence. The fact that the bed moved in commerce doesn't change that analysis.
"if interstate commerce is conceived of as a stream that ends with a retail sale."
Why do we take that step? If a restaurant owner in AL orders food from TN, then that transaction is interstate commerce. If he sells the food in AL to another customer in AL, then that transaction seems to be fully intrastate commerce. That would be true even if the customer on the other side of the counter traveled from out of state.
Your formulation would be that the feds could regulate ANY commerce because the purchaser could always have traveled from out of state in any scenario.
Because the position I am taking is one that accepts Katzenbach and Heart of Atlanta but just doesn’t go beyond them.
In my hypotheticals, the establishment would have to make an effort to ensure that both its product and its customers are in-state to be exempt. They would have to sell only to in-state people and would probably need to ID people to document this.
A business owner who is ideologically committed to avoiding federal oversight might well be willing to do this. And certain kinds of businesses, especially businesses prohibited or highly regulated by federal but not state law (like marijuana businesses), would have an incentive to do things this way.
But while it might become common for certain niche businesses, and there might be e.g. self-sufficient communities that set things up this way (perhaps some Amish, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hippies, etc.), the average business and the average business owner probably wouldn’t want to take the trouble.
It is certainly A line which does what you set out to do, but it doesn't explain why that is the proper line.
The fundamental problem here, I think, is that once you've decided that you're going to rationalize extending federal jurisdiction beyond what the clause was actually intended to afford, you've breached a fundamental constraint on your reasoning. You'll be forever rationalizing this and that.
I think Raich was wrongly decided.
And they know their air conditioning. Only place I've ever lived (Huntsville) where I had to turn the temp setting to a higher level because I was seeking a sweater to put on. 97 outside, cold enough to satisfy inside.
As the amendment comes after the commerce clause, it supersedes it in any conflicts, like everything else in the Constitution. The commerce clause grants the feds no more control over it than the commerce clause grants over free speech or religion.
I don't know what argument may work, but this is specious.
Do you claim that gunshot wounds have no economic impact upon hospitals, funeral homes and cemeteries? If not, should those employers be exempt from federal wage and hour laws?
Of course gunshot wounds have an economic impact. But if that were enough to settle the issue, Lopez would have come out the other way.
Lopez probably came out the way it did because the author of the amendment neglected to include a pretextual 'interstate commerce finding', not because the Court would have rejected it if he had.
They just forgot to recite the magic words.
In the 30 years since Lopez, sadly we have seen that is the case. The whole issue in Lopez, not by analogy, but by the guns in schools issue itself, was that Congress did not insert "in or affecting commerce" in the appropriate places in the law.
Do that, and no problem. That's a lot of waste of SCOTUS time for that little macro on the drafter's keyboard.
Indeed. As Rehnquist noted in Lopez:
Thus, SCOTUS blessed the magic words.
Of course not! But that's bass ackwards. I also don't claim that blabber in newspapers, on talking head shows, or Internet postings, because it may affect interstate commerce, is therefore regulatable.
If having an economic impact is enough, then Congress has plenary police power, which is obviously not what the founders intended.
Anything can, at some level of abstraction, have an economic impact.
"federal wage and hour laws" where is that power enumerated?
That at least can be tenuously tied to interstate commerce. Note the people who do so, also import illegal aliens hand over fist, which then undercuts wages, and import goods hand over fist, which undercuts wages.
I don't make these arguments, but they used to, before their political calculous changed.
If people didn’t marry, they would use commeercial prostitutes for sex. If they didn’t raise their own children, they would use commercial day care. So Congress can ban marriage as and child-rearing an impediment to economic growth.
Correct?
They affect commerce at least as much as gunshot wounds.
A judge appointed by Trump, a pedophile who travels in pedophile circles. Has anyone looked into Willett's activities around children?
What does that have to do with anything?
and where would you get the idea Trump was a pedophile?
It's the latest DNC smear against him, remember?
"and then consider whether that class is economic in nature, or sufficiently related to economic activity that its regulation is a necessary part of a broader regulatory scheme."
Look, the original sin here is Wickard. Just as you can't build a solid foundation on quicksand, you can't build a rational, honest constitutional jurisprudence while Wickard is still accepted as legitimate.
The interstate commerce clause gave Congress regulatory authority over that subset of actual commerce, that actually crossed certain boundaries. Not everything that was economic in nature, or might affect something Congress actually has authority over. Most of the clause's text is devoted to LIMITING that delegation, and no interpretation that moots most of a clause's text can be legitimate.
But, at this point it's all academic.
Is the federal prohibition on felon firearm possession constitutional? No, of course not.
Is the Court that gave us Rahimi going to care?
No, of course not.
But therein lies the problem. If the Commerce Clause doesn't give the federal government power to regulate the intrastate sale of firearms, it doesn't give the federal government the power to enact Social Security, Medicare, FEMA, the school lunch program, and the list goes on and on.
80% of the U.S. code would be unconstitutional, along with the vast majority of what the federal government does.
That's a limb that even the most conservative of judges and intellectuals aren't willing to go out on.
80% of the U.S. code IS unconstitutional, along with the vast majority of what the federal government does.
"That's a limb that even the most conservative of judges and intellectuals aren't willing to go out on."
Right, which is why I largely despair about ever restoring constitutional government to the US under its present Constitution. The rot was able to progress too far before originalism was in a position to stop it, and now restoring our present constitution to actually being binding is a hopeless objective. The Court simply isn't going to overturn the government as it exists, no matter HOW blatantly unconstitutional it is.
As I've occasionally said, the Emperor's New Clothes was wildly optimistic, in the real world that kid would have been lucky not not be dragged into a nearby alley and beaten with a lead pipe, and everybody would have gone on pretending the Emperor was well dressed. Mistakes have enormous inertia, and the more embarrassing they are to admit, the more likely it becomes they won't be admitted.
Fortunately, to overturn gun laws they don't have to strip the federal government of any illegitimate power at all, they just have to admit that the 2nd amendment restricts how those powers can be exercised. So getting back most of our 2nd amendment rights isn't totally hopeless, the challenge is simply staffing the judiciary with people who WANT them restored, or at least don't strongly object to it.
I agree with you fully. But the American people won't go along with it, so no one dares try to implement it.
We'll never know if the American people would go along with it, because our rulers won't go along with it.
Look at the whining form the SNAP program. What do you think it would be if literally every federal agency and program, including Social Security and Medicare, disappeared overnight?
I indeed vote for that.
The Federal government.
Maybe Judge Willett is correct, but no one on the Supreme Court, not even Thomas, will go that far. I don't think this argument came up even as an aside in Rahimi.
The respondents in United States v. Hemani, the upcoming 922(g)(3) case (as applied challenge to pot users from buying guns)
https://www.scotusblog.com/cases/case-files/united-states-v-hemani/
arent going this far either, because its not a winner.
The question will turn on whether there is historical evidence that (violent) felons could be disarmed. On that, the record is pretty clear. They could be hanged, ergo they could be disarmed (a lesser punishment). Whether this could apply to non-violent felons...well, counterfeiting was a capital crime in 1790. So probably.
I think the ship of limited federal police powers sailed too long ago to be undone. It is, as the framers would say, liquidated.
I don't know, I think Thomas might be willing to go that far. I don't think anybody else on the Court would. You might get several votes for restricting it to just violent felonies.
The majority are prepared to say, "This far and no further!" to the federal usurpation of undelegated powers. But they're certainly not willing to roll them back, even relatively recent ones. Then you bring the "but, guns!" exception to the Bill of Rights into the picture, and it's all over but the refusal of cert.
I don't recall Thomas ever making this argument, either in a concurrence or dissent. I think he would if he felt strongly enough about it (he certainly has said a lot about the fact that the court relies on the wrong subsection of the 14th Amendment). Maybe he has... but I don't think so. If he has, I'd like to read it.
I don't recall him making that argument, either. I'm just saying that, of all the Justices presently on the Court, he's the only one who might plausibly make it.
"The question will turn on whether there is historical evidence that (violent) felons could be disarmed. On that, the record is pretty clear. They could be hanged, ergo they could be disarmed (a lesser punishment). Whether this could apply to non-violent felons...well, counterfeiting was a capital crime in 1790. So probably."
Where's the limiting principle on this? Can congress just strip felons of all rights (after all, its a lesser punishment than death, where the felon is executed and incidentally also stripped of all rights)?
Agree. At that point, it becomes a cruel and unusual punishment case.
Why should there be a limiting principle on sentences for crimes? (Other than the eighth amendment, which is about physical torture)
Counterfeiting was a capital crime in 1790. Certainly that opens the door to making medicare fraud and social security fraud a capital crime, the harms are similar.
If you want to avoid the sentence, dont commit the crime...
Now, maybe the crime itself is unconstitutional (flag burning), but if the crime is constitutional the sentence is whatever congress decides.
I don't think there would be an issue if congress in its infinitesimal wisdom decided to classify medicare fraud as a capital crime. That isn't the issue here. The issue is the idea that the power to legislate for execution includes the power to legislate for any and all incidental effects of execution, like disarmament. Why would it stop at disarmament? If "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" includes the caveat "unless you have previously been convicted of a felony", why wouldn't that also include every other right of the people enumerated in the bill of rights?
Not conceding that disarmament is merely an incidental effect of execution.
Because it is the business of states to sentence people for state crimes. It is no business of the federal government.
I am not disagreeing with you about the police power of the federal government, but that ship sailed a very long time ago.
I don't think congress or the supreme court will ever strike the prohibition of felons from possessing guns. It's often used by the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District of Maryland (for example) to get drug dealers for whom they can't get more serious charges filed (like murder) because there is no evidence (https://www.justice.gov/usao-md/pr/baltimore-man-convicted-possession-firearm-and-ammunition-convicted-felon).
The US attorneys office is in this business because the Maryland courts are revolving doors.
I think that the best we might ever do on this is an as-applied challenge, with a client who has used a gun in clear cut act of self-defense, and whose been peaceable for an extended period (like a decade).
An as applied challenge might be successful... or it might not if the client is not sympathetic. Generally this is not a case a prosecutor would pursue anyway because of its riskiness.
"The US attorneys office is in this business because the Maryland courts are revolving doors."
Marylanders should talk about the real problem, then.
"That ship has sailed" is an idiom that dates back to a time without radio, when if a ship had sailed out of range of, say, signal flags, it was simply impossible to recall it. Today, if somebody says "That ship has sailed", the appropriate response is, "Well, tell them to turn around and sail right back!".
But, of course, it's not impossible to undo these mistakes, it's just that nobody who is suspected of wanting to undo them would ever be allowed into a position to do so.
That time conservatives thought that the confirmation of Roberts would return us to the glorious Lochner era of jurisprudence!
I don't recall that I ever thought that.
"(Other than the eighth amendment, which is about physical torture)"
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
Not quite seeing how excessive bail or fines is about torture, and if excessive fines are prohibited, it's kind of hard to argue that cruel and unusual punishment is limited to just torture. The amendment seems aimed at excessive penalties of all sorts.
Suppose Oregon passes a law that all people convicted of medical fraud shall be hanged. Someone convicted of medical fraud, put on probation, and released in California moves to Oregon. Can Oregon hang him? He was convicted of medical fraud, and Oregon law says that people cnvicted of medical fraud shall be hanged.
What makes this any different?
That the Supreme court is a federal judiciary, nominated and confirmed at the federal level, and they are specifically chosen to cut the federal government enough slack to reach to the Moon and back.
My point was that when people are convicted of felonies by state law, their sentence isn’t the federal government’s business. Same as if two different states were involved.
Yeah. I don't agree with that. First, Bruen says we are to look at the history and tradition of firearms regulation, not infer greater and lesser punishments.
Second, you could gouge out someone's eyes and because that is not as extreme as death, it is constitutional under any amendment including the 8A. As you said, frankly you could do anything to someone short of death and it would be constitutional.
Sell them into sex slavery? Well, at least they are not dead.
Gouging someones eyes out wouldnt pass 8A.
Slavery was abolished with the 13th amendment.
I think its better to view the felon-in-possession prohibition as a sentencing enhancement. What can congress do for sentencing? Almost anything they want.
Agree with it or no, there is 0.000% chance the Supreme Court strikes it down, except maybe as an as-applied challenge, and then even that's dicey and will depend on the client. I don't have high hopes for the pot case soon to be before the court, because in addition to being a pot user, he was a cocaine user. Alito and Kavanaugh will not go for giving cocaine users guns. They just wont.
The very, very best we can hope for is that SC says 922(g)(3) requires an underlying conviction.
.
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States"
"Slavery was abolished with the 13th amendment."
"except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted"
But specifically sex slavery would probably still run into the 8th amendment.
I stand corrected. Maybe we should have sentenced Ghislaine Maxwell with sex slavery. Although given what I unfortunately know about women's prisons, we probably did exactly that.
Why wouldn't eye gouging be acceptable under the 8A IF this formulation is correct? As death is okay, and eye gouging is LESS than death, then it should easily pass the 8A.
Because 8A hinges on the amount of suffering/cruelty and the excessiveness of the fine. As I said, *maybe* the lifetime prohibition is vulnerable to an as-applied challenge. Maybe not. Not to a facial challenge, though. Nobody will live long enough to see the current members of the court replaced.
"Because 8A hinges on the amount of suffering/cruelty"
If you keep stepping down this road then imprisonment might violate the 8A. In any event, it seems that you are agreeing with my overall point that simply because you could categorize something as a "lesser" punishment, that does not answer other questions.
It may be that while a thing is lesser in the abstract it might nonetheless inform on different interests and different rights. Certainly the death is a greater punishment than not entering into a same sex marriage.
Would anyone who justifies the "firearms can be banned because it is less than death" argue that ex-felons could be denied the right to same sex marriage after conviction on the theory that as we could have executed him at the founding, we can certainly require no gay marriage?
"If you keep stepping down this road then imprisonment might violate the 8A"
Justice Sotomayor certainly sprints down that road. I could see her making this argument with a straight face.
"ex-felons could be denied the right to same sex marriage after conviction"
If denial of the right to marriage (regardless of sex/gender) were a punishment for, say, pedophilia or rape, I doubt the court would strike it as unconstitutional. What if it weren't outright denial, but may-issue marriage licences ("Have you even been convicted...")? I am not entirely sure this is an excessive punishment. I might even support it, but for the fact that marriage is out of fashion.
No. I stand by the hypo. It is a denial of a same sex marriage license based solely on a felony conviction, entered at the time of sentencing and done as a punishment.
And keep this in the right lane. Don't bring out other doctrines. If you say, "Well you can't do that because I have a right to same sex marriage per Obergefell" I would say that per Bruen (apples to apples) there is a long history and tradition of denying same sex marriage as a punishment for a criminal conviction. (Don't argue rational basis, Bruen says we don't do tiers of scrutiny)
You would rightly say that you know of no such history and tradition. That's when the "greater assumes the lesser" pivot comes in. As you could be executed at the founding, I would argue, then that would deny you your whole life INCLUDING a choice of same sex marriage.
That is the pivot here that I object to.
Chemical castration law for sex offenders is a thing. The state can probably keep you from getting married too.
I am not convinced this would be unconstitutional in all its applications. It might be unconstitutional in some of its applications.
The federal government has no power to enhance a state court’s sentence. It only has power to concern itself with people convicted of federal crimes. How state criminals should be sentenced is the states’ businesss, not the federal government’s.
Justice Thomas has said in several cases that he is not commenting on the Cmmerce Clause implications of the law because they are not before the Court.
Yes, no one right of center is going to accept the application of enumerated power limitations only/selectively being used against right of center policy preferences.
That IS an infringement.
But then so is removing a felon's right to vote.
If they are out of jail, they should have all constitutional rights.
Except that disenfranchising felons is explicitly permitted by the 14th Amendment.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
A specific penalty does not apply, and it isn't limited to "felons."
Yup, just more people misquoting the Constitution to suit their own needs.
Did you read what you just posted?
"But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime"
There is nothing in the constitution that demands that the timeframe of various prongs of a sentence be consistent.
the "if they are out of jail, they should have all constitutional rights" is dubious because its never been true.
You get released on probation with limited rights and get your freedom back gradually. Restitution may go on much longer, maybe forever because you cant pay it back. With a felony criminal conviction you cant get certain jobs, for the rest of your life.
But it is for the state impose limits on its ex-prisoners. No business of the federal government.
Could the federal government not impose limits on ex-prisoners of federal prisons?
what was the enumerated power to create the Federal offense for which the person was sentenced to a Federal prison?
It could. But this law doesn’t do so. It proports to be a commerce regulation. That’s why it proports to apply to state convicts, not just federal ones.
Restitution and the inability to get certain jobs are collateral consequences of the conviction.
In any event, the pertinent question under Bruen is not whether a sentence can be structured to be an effective life sentence, it is whether at the founding (or in 1868) that disarmament after completion of a sentence WAS something that was part of our historical tradition of firearms regulation. It clearly was not.
And the pertinent question under Rahimi is whether the Court's majority dislikes a Bruen analysis outcome enough that they're just going to play pretend.
Voting is not a Constitutional right. Never has been. The only rights related to voting mentioned are that they can not be infringed due to race, age (if over 18), and sex. Other methods of disenfranchising are fair game.
That's true from a historical understanding and a quick read of the Constitution, but the SCOTUS "one man one vote" cases have thrown a monkey wrench into that. It is a de facto right.
If voting was a right then all the voter suppression measures that states enacted would have been struck down. Also SCOTUS is quite hostile to the "Voting Rights Act".
...
Under things as they stand, the federal government can regulate in minute detail what kinds of sex are and are not permitted to married couples if they use a contraceptive or a bed that previously passed in interstate commerce.
I like the image the opinion uses - converting commerce from a thing to be regulated to a contagion that infects everything it touches by subjecting it to federal regulation.
The Court should realize that if it makes nonsense of the Commerce Clause, future courts can make equal nonsense of the provisions of the Bill of Rights and eliminate their practical effect as limitations on the power of government to do anything it wants.
I think they do realize that, but they also realize that much of the federal government today rests on that nonsensical reading of the commerce clause, and they are not bomb throwers, not even when the Constitution commands them to throw bombs.
They weren't hired to uphold the Constitution though the heavens should fall. They were hired to uphold it to the extent doing so does not significantly inconvenience the federal government that nominated and confirmed them.
They were hired to uphold it to the extent doing so does not significantly inconvenience the federal government that nominated and confirmed them.
Tendentious bullshit. Justices are selected for their willingness to expand federal power???
You've let your foolish obssession with Wickard, which you don't understand, take over your brain.
"Justices are selected for their willingness to expand federal power???"
Ever since FDR.
Ever since FDR.
By FDR. But not necessarily by every President since.
No, contingently by every President since.
FDR in particular selected Justices with that objective specifically in mind. So did Lincoln.
Your claim runs against a lot of very non-controverted history. For example, it’s pretty uncontrovertial that Lincoln nominated Treasury Secretary Chase expecting him to uphold the use of greenbacks as money, and then was suprised and disappointed when Justice Chase found it unconstitutional.
I'm not seeing how a broad interpretation of the Commerce Clause has any impact on the protections afforded by the Bill of Rights. The former is about federalism. The latter is about individual rights and mostly apply to the states as well as the feds. If de facto there is no federalism limitation in the Commerce Clause (the feds can regulate just as the states do), how would that lead to lifting limitations imposed by the Bill of Rights which apply to the states as well.
In principle it wouldn't. But in the case of the 2nd amendment, you're always dealing with the "But, guns!" exception; The 2nd amendment never gets subjected to normal constitutional interpretation. Bruen came close, but as we can see with Rahimi, most of the Court didn't really mean it.
Rahimi has nothing to do with how the Commerce Clause has been interpreted.
No, it had to do with how the 2nd amendment is interpreted.
But the moment guns enter the picture, normal constitutional analysis goes away, and you get "But, guns!" style jurisprudence, instead.
I wonder how this style of jurisprudence came to be.
I assume through judges really, really disliking gun ownership.
I wonder why they reallly dislike gun ownership. It cdoes not seem to be merely wanting to suppress street crime, as there is niowhere near the judicial hostility against 4th, 5th, 6th, or 8th Amendment protections. (Ibn fact, the Supreme Court actually overruled prior precedents that had a more restrained interpretation of these amendments)
I think it is mostly cultural. Where I am guns are no big deal---everyone owns them, keeps them at home, in the car, etc. It really isn't thought of much. If you want a gun, go buy one. If you want to carry one, carry it.
In other areas of the country, mainly urban areas, guns are rare and rather novel. You would be terrified if you knew the guy next to you was carrying.
Dependence on the State versus self-determination and sovereignty.
That's why.
You seriously don’t think the bill of rights is in any jeapardy today?
The Trump Justice Department has specialized in taking the same sorts of arguments its lawyers gained expertise in regarding things like the Commerce Clause and applying them to thinks like the definition of (for wxample) an “invasion.”
It’s exactly the same sort of argument. Anything that could potentially be an invasion or related to an invasion is covered by the invasion power, and courts should defwr to the political branches (here the executive one) to determine when applying the powers is necessary and proper.
Just read the Administration’s legal briefs. Where do you think its lawyers learned how to argue like that?
Perhaps the Bill of Rights is in jeopardy. But, it's not because of Commerce Clause doctrine.
The response would be that while those regulations might pass muster under the commerce clause, they would fail the penumbras of whatever other amendments protect marriage, contraception, and the like.
But Lawrence v. Texas explicitly excluded commercial sex. We’re talking here only about commercial sex, not non-commercial sex. Only commercial sex is reachable by the commerce power. And that which is reachable by the commerce power is commercial in nature.
There could be cases, analogous to the one in Lopez, where Lawrence could apply. But for the most part, under the current definition of commerce, the commercial sex exception to Lawrence pretty much swallows the rule.
I understood you to be arguing that non-commercial sex and marriage could be banned under the theory that it would harm the interstate market in prostitution.
To the extent this prohibition is based on federal convictions, it seems to me that Congress has the power as part of its power to punish federal crimes. Same as it can provide for supervised release and restitution.
But its also based on convictions for certain state crimes, so that theory will not suffice for the whole statute.
Well, no. It implicates the 2A. Therefore such a punishment must be shown to be within our history and tradition of firearms regulation.
Supervised release and restitution do not implicate the 2A. So they are judged by other provisions.
We are talking analytically about two different things. The article is talking about Congress' power over something. The federal govt. is supposed to have limited powers, so you need a source of Congressional power for anything Congress does. As to that, if Congress can punish someone for a federal crime, that punishment can include all sorts of restrictions on liberty, including gun ownership.
The Second Amendment is a second-level inquiry -- does Congress' power infringe on some right.
As to that, I am dubious that once one is convicted of a felony, particularly a violent one, that the Second Amendment stands in the way of restricting a ban on that person bearing arms. Conviction permits far more stringent deprivations on liberty. If you can sentence someone to life in jail, I would think you can sentence someone to life without a gun.
"If you can sentence someone to life in jail, I would think you can sentence someone to life without a gun."
See above. If you can sentence someone to life in jail, can you also sentence someone to life without a gay marriage?
The examples continue. If you can sentence someone to life in jail, then surely you can sentence them to life without the benefit of the equal protection clause, or the due process clause. Surely it is better to live outside of prison and be treated poorly than it is to live inside of a prison, or be executed.
I would accept that a federal conviction of a felony, particularly a violent one, would allow the federal government to impose that restriction at time of sentencing. Whether by an exercise of sentencing discretion, or mandatory sentencing.
With the proviso that we really desperately need to address felony inflation, and the fact that many current felonies would formerly have been mere misdemeanors, or even no sort of crime at all.
"If you can sentence someone to life in jail, I would think you can sentence someone to life without a gun."
But, most "felonies" do NOT carry the risk of a life sentence or capital punishment. So it seems to me improper to say that today's "felonies" are relevantly the same as the founding era's "felonies".
You might say that most modern "felonies" are, by this standard, only nominal felonies, and only felonies that carry the potential of life in prison or the death penalty are felony felonies.
You might even observe that one of the motives for felony inflation was to have an excuse to disarm as many people as possible...
That aside, I don't think a state conviction in any way entitles the federal government to automatically pile on additional penalties. Of course, it was initially justified on the basis, IIRC, that it WASN'T a penalty. It was just the withdrawal for cause of a privilege. I don't think that reasoning is at all tenable now that gun ownership has properly been recognized as a right.
At the same time, of course, Rahimi has informed us that there's only 1 justice in 9 who gives a damn about treating gun ownership as a real right, the rest either want it gone, or assigned a distinctly 2nd (or 3rd) class status.
But even setting aside that, for the federal government to pile on extra penalties as a consequence of a state level conviction is essentially an instance of double jeopardy, aggravated by an element of bill of attainder, since you don't even get a federal trial first.
Putting aside that this is not a faithful application of Bruen, your proposal would have no principled floor.
So the feds could ban gun possession for a lifetime upon sentencing for a felony but only those felonies that have death or life in prison as a punishment?
So if federal bank robbery is punishable by 20 years then you have a constitutional right to own a gun after you have served your 20 years. That is a right enforceable in the courts.
But suppose the feds next year say that bank robbery is punishable by life in prison, but this individual only gets 20 years, he now has no right to own a gun after he has served 20 years?
Since when does a right hinge on such vagaries?
"particularly a violent one"
That sounds perilously close to the means/ends scrutiny that Bruen says is not allowed. It seems as if you are saying that banning guns to those convicted of violent crimes is more "reasonable" than banning guns to those convicted of non-violent crimes.
I think my key point is that it's simply illegitimate for the federal government to impose penalties as a consequence of a state conviction. It is, as I say, some bastard mix of double jeopardy and a bill of attainder.
But I also, yes, think that we seriously need to address the fact of rampant felony inflation. Reasoning that you can deprive somebody of a constitutional right as a consequence of a "felony" conviction in 2025, just because a "felony" conviction in 1800 could have gotten you executed, without taking into account that only the most serious crimes were felonies in 1800, and now picking up a feather lying on the ground can be a felony in 2025, is just too much.
You have to restrict that sort of reasoning to crimes today that are treated as comparably serious, because losing a constitutional right is a SERIOUS penalty, not a mere trifle.
The provision does not require a "plenary power to regulate anything and everything, even when supplemented with the Necessary and Proper Clause."
The law involved in Lopez did not either, but the case for that is significantly easier to make.
"Jurisdictional elements written so broadly would seem to make a mockery of the idea that Congress' powers are limited and enumerated."
A mockery?
"possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce"
It is tied to a specific enumerated power. The statute speaks of "possession in ... commerce." Not mere possession. The Necessary and Proper Clause provides a wider reach. But that isn't even needed here.
As is usual, it turns on complaints that it is not limited ENOUGH. We are supposedly left to determine how in this context? By five justices on the Supreme Court, or maybe one (district) or two (three judge panel) judges in the lower courts?
Seems more appropriate to allow Congress, by laws passed by two branches with multiple bottlenecks to get through, and signed by POTUS, to determine the specific nuances of the Commerce Power here. As long as it is reasonable. Which it appears to be here.
[The value of the political process, up to a point, to determine policy based on the structure set forth, to protect our liberty, was well discussed by the Federalist Papers and so on. Antifederalists also wrote about the dangers of judicial review.]
The citation of Brutus, an opponent of the Constitution, is a bit precious. We are assured that his reasoning might be "overstated," but the opinion clearly is sympathetic to it.
Furthermore, states still have "much of their freedom to pursue innovative, locally tailored solutions to vexing problems." N.Y. and Texas, for instance, do various things differently.
Of course, it is unclear what this Court would do.
"It is tied to a specific enumerated power. "
It makes reference to a specific enumerated power. It's not "tied to" it in any meaningful way, because it's a enumerated power to regulate interstate commerce, and the act does something other than... regulate interstate commerce.
"Furthermore, states still have "much of their freedom to pursue innovative, locally tailored solutions to vexing problems." N.Y. and Texas, for instance, do various things differently."
According to your view, that is only because the federal government in its generosity permits the states to have those powers. It just hasn't regulated them out of existence yet.
SCOTUS is not going to strike down felon gun bans because gun possession crimes are a major tool the feds use against minorities.
You do realize that Democrats are actually much more devoted to that ban than Republicans, right?
Even more reason SCOTUS won't strike it down. Both sides like it.
I'd like to see a challenge to the mental health ban --- that's a civil, not criminal standard and no pardon is available.