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Reflections on the 10th Anniversary of Obergefell v. Hodges - A Great Civil Rights Milestone that Could be Even Better
The Supreme Court's ruling striking down laws banning same-sex marriage was a great victory for liberty and equality. But it should have been based on better legal reasoning.

Today, is the tenth anniversary of Obergefell v. Hodges, the landmark Supreme Court decision striking down laws banning same-sex marriage. The ruling was a great victory for liberty and equality, and a striking example of how progress can be achieved by a combination of litigation and political action. The Court got the right result. But its reasoning should have been better. Instead of relying on a dubious mishmash of rationales, the Court would have done better to rule that laws banning same-sex marriage are unconstitutional because they discriminate on the basis of sex.
Obergefell was a great triumph for the civil rights of a long oppressed and despised minority. For decades, gays and lesbians had been discriminated against in a wide range of ways, and even subjected to criminal prosecution. Only with Lawrence v. Texas (2003) did the Supreme Court strike down anti-sodomy laws. I am old enough to remember widespread homophobic prejudice when I was growing up in the late 1980s and 1990s - not in a socially conservative area, but in an overwhelmingly liberal Boston suburb.
At the time of Obergefell, 37 states had same-sex marriage rights. But in 21 of them those rights depended on recent federal court decisions that would have been overturned had Obergefell come out the other way. Without Obergefell, many states would have continued to deny marriage equality for a long time to come, even up to the present day.
For gays and lesbians throughout much of the country, Obergefell was essential to ensuring they had secure marriage rights. In addition to the vastly important symbolism of this step towards equality, access to marriage enabled many thousands of same-sex couples to secure such practical benefits as adoption rights, inheritance rights, tax benefits, the ability to make medical decisions for sick or incapacitated partners, access to property rights reserved for married couples, and more. Most heterosexuals took these rights for granted, but gays and lesbians could not.
Obergefell was more than just a victory secured by lawyers making arguments in court. It was also the product of a longstanding civil rights movement. For decades, the gay rights movement had worked to influence public and elite opinion in favor of equality. Thanks to their efforts, public support for same-sex marriage rose from just 27% in 1996 to around 60% just before Obergefell was decided. At the same time, legal scholars and others advanced a variety of constitutional arguments for marriage equality which prevailed in several state supreme courts interpreting their state constitutions, and led to the invalidation of the federal Defense of Marriage Act in United States v. Windsor (2013), striking down a law that barred federal recognition of same-sex marriages performed in states where they were legal.
It took the combined force of shifts in public opinion and development in legal argument to make Obergefell possible. The former allowed the justices to take the step they did, confident that most of society would back their decision. Just a few months before Obergefell, Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg openly stated that the shift in public attitudes had paved the way for such a ruling, whereas earlier she had feared the public would not accept it. The arguments developed by scholars and advocates made it possible for the Court to issue a decision in favor of marriage equality consistent with professional norms.
It is important to remember that the same-sex marriage movement did not triumph by promoting "identity politics" validating a distinct LGBT cultural identity, but by emphasizing how same-sex marriage is fundamentally similar to opposite-sex marriage; and gays and lesbians, more generally, are fundamentally similar to heterosexuals. As an Iowa Supreme Court ruling in favor of marriage equality put it, the plaintiffs in the case were "in committed and loving relationships, many raising families, just like heterosexual couples."
In this respect, they followed in the footsteps of the racial equality and gender equality movements before them. There is a crucial lesson here for future movements seeking to expand liberty and equality to new groups, such as transgender people and undocumented immigrants.
It is also notable that same-sex marriage has become even more secure in the last decade, despite a right-wing retrenchment on some other "culture war" issues. Public support has continued to rise, with 68% of Americans supporting same-sex marriage this year, albeit with growing partisan polarization. In 2022, a large bipartisan majority in Congress passed the Respect for Marriage Act, seeking to provide a measure of protection for same-sex marriage in the event of a reversal of Obergefell.
Neither the Republican Party nor the more conservative Supreme Court has shown much enthusiasm for overturning Obergefell in recent years, even as the Court did overturn Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision establishing abortion rights, in the 2022 Dobbs decision. Justice Samuel Alito's majority opinion in Dobbs carefully distinguished Obergefell from Roe, and - significantly - no other justice joined Clarence Thomas's concurring opinion advocating Obergefell's reversal.
Obergefell does have one important shortcoming: the Court's reliance on flawed legal reasoning. Justice Anthony Kennedy's majority opinion relied on a combination of "substantive due process" liberty arguments under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment (which bars states from depriving people of "liberty" without "due process of law"), and equality arguments under the Equal Protection Clause (which forbids deprivation of the "equal protection of the laws"). Notoriously, the Court failed to make clear the scope of the liberty in question, or exactly why it applies to same-sex couples, but not to other marriages long barred by law, such as polygamous marriages or those between close blood relatives. On the equality side, the Court failed to explain exactly what the forbidden classification was, even though equal protection analysis normally requires courts striking down a law to specify a "suspect classification," such as race, gender, or religion. Justice Kennedy also failed to specify what level of scrutiny he was applying to laws banning same-sex marriage, even though that determines the burden of proof the government must meet to justify its laws.
This hodgepodge has damaged Obergefell's reputation among legal experts, and made it unclear whether the decision precludes other types of state discrimination against gays and lesbians. The Court could have avoided this problem by simply ruling that laws banning same-sex marriage discriminate on the basis of sex, as Northwestern law Prof. Andrew Koppelman and I advocated in an amicus brief we filed in the case on behalf of a cross-ideological group of legal scholars. Koppelman (a liberal living constitutionalist) and I (a libertarian originalist) agree on little else; but we are united on this issue. Since 1976, the Supreme Court had held that laws discriminating on the basis of sex are subject to heightened "intermediate" scrutiny that laws banning same-sex marriage could not overcome.
And, as we explained, such laws undeniably do discriminate on the basis of sex. If same-sex marriage is forbidden, Anne is allowed to marry Bob, but Charles cannot. Charles is denied the right to marry Bob solely because Charles is a man. Denial of a legal right solely because of gender is the very essence of sex discrimination. It is much the same reasoning as that which earlier led the Court to hold that laws banning interracial marriage discriminate on the basis of race, because under such constraints who you are allowed to marry depends on your race. We also demonstrated how such a holding is justified under Supreme Court precedent, and the original meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment.
A ruling based on sex discrimination would have established a much stronger basis for same-sex marriage rights. It would also set a precedent clearly barring most other types of state discrimination against LGBT people, though difficult issues would still remain in cases where sex discrimination is permitted by law, as with transgender persons' access to womens' sports teams and single-sex bathrooms.
The Supreme Court has ruled that discrimination against gays, lesbians, and transgender people is sex discrimination under the Title VII federal employment discrimination law, in a 2020 decision written by conservative Justice Neil Gorsuch, It unanimously reaffirmed that conclusion this year. If the opportunity arises, it would do well to apply the same reasoning to the Equal Protection Clause.
United States v. Skrmetti, the Supreme Court's controversial recent 6-3 decision upholding state laws banning gender-affirming surgery for minors in does not undercut the sex discrimination theory. In Skrmetti, the majority carefully avoided any imputation that discrimination against LGBT people is not sex discrimination by holding that laws banning gender-affirming surgery present a special case, because they "prohibit… healthcare providers from administering puberty blockers and hormones to minors for certain medical uses, regardless of a minor's sex." The Court reasoned that the provision of such treatments for purposes other than facilitating a change of gender is fundamentally different, from a medical point of view, than their use to achieve that goal. Whatever the merits of that reasoning, it has few implications for more conventional forms of discrimination against gays and lesbians. Three conservative justices wrote concurring opinions arguing that transgender people are not a "suspect class" warranting special judicial protection. But even they did not say that discrimination against transgender people is not sex discrimination.
Despite flaws in reasoning, Obergefell still reached the right result, and remains a civil rights milestone. For the many thousands of families who benefit from it, the Court's reasoning understandably matters less than results. But better reasoning would make the decision a stronger precedent for the future.
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Many accept gay marriage but most loathe it and are disgusted by it. A lot like slavery.
most loathe it and are disgusted by it.
Your evidence for this assertion is...?
The natural and healthy human disgust response when seeing two homosexuals.
That’s not natural or healthy. It’s weird as fuck. See the post below to realize why that is the case.
You say you believe in Evil-Lution, oh well, you know, not being disgusted by Male Homosexuals means you don't (believe in Evil-lution)
Because in the year 2525, if man is still alive, and every living man is a True Homosexual, there won't be anybody left by 2675
FEMALE Homosexuals are a totally different story, they can still make a contribution with their Adnexae and Uteri, that's why they don't stimulate the innate disgust that Male Homosexuals do
Frank
Evolution probably explains why there are homosexuals. There are genes that increase how attracted women are to men. Women who express those genes are more likely to get pregnant. However, their brothers who express the gene are also more likely to be attracted to men. As long as the women have a lot of children, the gene will be passed on and will increase procreation, even if the men who express it usually don’t reproduce.
Yes, the aspect of evolution that explains why there are homosexuals is that evolutionary 'drive' declines as you approach perfection, while mutations are continually breaking things, so that instead of reaching perfection, you hit an equilibrium where the advantage of being functional just equals the base mutation rate. All traits act this way, instead of driving dysfunctional genes down to zero, they all have a base frequency driven by the rate at which they're eliminated vs the rate at which they occur.
Of course, a gene for obligate homosexuality would be eliminated very efficiently, but you don't really see those for just that reason, instead you just see less than 100% effective genes for assuring heterosexuality.
If they did discover a gay gene and it could be identified in-uteruo I would become pro-abortion. Just like almost every other human on Earth.
I hope your kids turn out gay. 🙂
(but it'd be cruel to them to have you as a parent.)
Sorry, I defend gay rights, but you must understand humans aren't just strands of DNA evolving, but two strands: DNA and memes, aka social and other learned behaviors.
Insofar as gay is genetic, it need not have any kind of useful DNA reason. Rather, it didn't evolve away because the partner strand of info, meme, kept gay people mating and reproducing. There's many a tale of people centuries past being trapped by fate, living sad lives.
Now that pressure is off, and so the DNA will evolve itself out.
I've long said whether you were born that way should be purely academic and irrelevant to being free -- in a properly defined society, you shouldn't need it to justify freedom.
But you do. And the meme driving reproduction is now largely gone. Nobody alive will live to see the evolutionary results.
Which will never happen because science will be rewriting DNA wholesale in a century or two anyway.
"Which will never happen because science will be rewriting DNA wholesale in a century or two anyway."
A lot of people don't understand that. Evolution is still going to be going on, but it will be driven by gene engineering, not mutations, and favorable genes won't need reproduction to spread. They'll just need people to want them. Or, more dark, to be able to force their spread.
This is illogical and doesn't follow observed facts among mate-for-life animals who exhibit homosexuality as well. Their homosexual members continue to be born because their siblings continue to procreate.
Charles Darwin catalogued exactly zero homosexual animals.
Weird.
many animals exhibit homosexual behavior: penguins, swans, sheep, ducks, bonobos to name a few. and it's not rare exceptions, it's a frequent occurrence. memes aren't keeping them in the gene pool.
The Gay Uncle theory has long since been debunked.
Frank, for someone who claims to have a medical degree, you know remarkably little about basic biology.
The overwhelming majority of human orgasms are non-procreative. If the average male has two orgasms a week from age 20 to age 50, that's over 3000 orgasms. But that doesn't mean he's going to have 3000 children, which is a good thing. So even if 99% of orgasms are non-procreative, there will still be plenty of human babies to keep the planet repopulated. (My own father was bisexual and had seven children with two different women, even though most of his sexual activity was with other men.)
And that "innate" disgust is almost entirely cultural, as demonstrated by other cultures that don't have it.
Confusing orgasm and ejaculation ?
Nocturnal emissions are without orgasms.
No confusion here, and even if there were it would not affect my point But thanks for the pedantry.
which would mean you don't have any trust in your reaction to necrophilia , the torture of children, or abortion videos showing the child pulling away violently from the forceps.
A woman of seared conscience.
That is different from being disgusted by gay marriage, What do polls say about gay marriage?
Polls say that support for same-sex marriage is down, at least among Republicans.
Not actually providing numbers, I see. It's currently 68%
https://news.gallup.com/poll/691139/record-party-divide-years-sex-marriage-ruling.aspx
Democrats’ support has risen to 88%, the record high for this group by one percentage point. Independents’ backing for same-sex marriage has been relatively stable in recent years and currently stands at 76%, one point shy of the record high.
At the same time, Republicans’ support, which peaked at 55% in 2021 and 2022, has gradually edged down to 41%, the lowest point since 2016 after the Obergefell decision.
GOP bigotry reasserting itself, it seems. Still, that 68% number undermines bye's claim , and down by 1% is an insignificant change. Over 2/3rds of Americans support it.
From History.com : https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/November-4/prop-8-passed-california-gay-marriage
> With over 13 million votes cast, California voters approve Proposition 8 on November 4, 2008, amending the state’s constitution to ban same-sex marriage.
>
> Only months earlier, in May 2008, the California Supreme Court had deemed the state’s ban on same-sex marriage unconstitutional, making California the second state in the country to legalize gay marriage. Thus, Proposition 8 reversed the state court’s ruling.
Now we recognize that CA is a Democrat State, with overwhelming support for and by Democrats. With the numbers given, how can we reconcile that the State voted in a 52% to 48% definition of marriage as one-man-one-woman?
Maybe it's simply the Brown effect in polling, people will tell pollsters what they think will cast them in a positive light but in the privacy of a polling booth, vote their conscience?
As such, wouldn't the voting patterns be more accurate than the pollster results?
California did repeal that amendment in 2024, but still did not explicitly endorse same-sex marriage.
According to a 2013 Pew Research Center survey, 72% of Russians consider homosexuality to be morally unacceptable. This sentiment is consistent across Russian society, with nearly equal numbers of men and women, and young and old people thinking homosexuality is unacceptable
Meanwhile, Is homophobia associated with homosexual arousal?
Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.
You don't actually believe that nonsense do you?
It might not be a generalized phenomenon, but there is an example of this in this very thread!
This human quality of being disgusted by something to only secret be that same something appears in what other contexts?
Any?
You don't think that lesbians can be okay if both chicks are hot (not at all butch)?
Effin Right they can be "Okay", in fact, a whole lot better than "Okay"
Lesbian porn was a huge lever in the normalization of gays for general acceptance.
But it was only possible because straight guys wanted to see twice as many women without any naked men...
Simply that your denial that it is perverse and disgusting , along with your "but I like doing it' -- that defines what a pervert is !! You don't deny there is such a thing as perversion but you deny it can apply to homosexuality because you like homosexual acts !!! Well, there you go. A non-pervert sees it immediately and a pervert is unable to see it.
that's because it's not normal nor healthy to take one's erect penis and slither it into another man's butthole, wriggling it around in excrement until an explosive orgasm leads to a torrent of diseased man cream entering the catcher's colon.
HE’S BACK!
...and he's gone grey in record time. Life's too short, etc.
ntw93bvxkyhfqmo, are you bothered as much by male/female buttsex? Why or why not?
I have never associated receiving anal insertion with pleasure -- all I have to go on there is prostate exams -- but some women tell me they enjoy it.
"...erect penis...slither...butthole, wriggling ...explosive orgasm...torrent...man cream...colon."
Ohh Myyyyyy!
No, the right to gay marriage is more like the former constitutional right to abortion, both were just made up out of whole cloth by the Court.
Gays could always get gay married. They just weren't recognized, licensed and taxed by the State.
If those things are important then they’re being denied something important, if they’re not why not give it to them?
There are plenty of other romantic configurations, why are they being excluded? Why not give it to everyone instead of just pairs of unrelated adults?
LexAquilia 49 minutes ago
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Mute User
Why is that right of recognition limited to only the romantic configuration of two unrelated people?
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Malika the Maiz 32 minutes ago
Maybe read the opinion?
Lame.
Because that is something that should be decided by the legislature in our democratic republic, not imposed by judicial fiat.
It wasn't "imposed". Instead, a restriction was removed.
That's an impressively incorrect interpretation of the scope of the ruling. As Roberts noted in his dissent, "[t]oday, however, the Court takes the extraordinary step of ordering every State to license and recognize same-sex marriage." I'll let the great Justice Scalia add some more context:
Since there is no doubt whatever that the People never decided to prohibit the limitation of marriage to opposite-sex couples, the public debate over same-sex marriage must be allowed to continue…But the Court ends this debate, in an opinion lacking even a thin veneer of law…This is a naked judicial claim to legislative—indeed, super-legislative—power; a claim fundamentally at odds with our system of government…A system of government that makes the People subordinate to a committee of nine unelected lawyers does not deserve to be called a democracy…But what really astounds is the hubris reflected in today’s judicial Putsch. The five Justices who compose today’s majority are entirely comfortable concluding that every State violated the Constitution for all of the 135 years between the Fourteenth Amendment’s ratification and Massachusetts’ permitting of same-sex marriages in 2003. They have discovered in the Fourteenth Amendment a “fundamental right” overlooked by every person alive at the time of ratification, and almost everyone else in the time since…These Justices know that limiting marriage to one man and one woman is contrary to reason; they know that an institution as old as government itself, and accepted by every nation in history until 15 years ago, cannot possibly be supported by anything other than ignorance or bigotry. And they are willing to say that any citizen who does not agree with that, who adheres to what was, until 15 years ago, the unanimous judgment of all generations and all societies, stands against the Constitution. The opinion is couched in a style that is as pretentious as its content is egotistic.
i.e., the states previously had restrictions and now they don't. You can always reframe, e.g., "Crackers lose their freedom to own slaves".
Access to marriage is still restricted. It isn't available to all. Only to pairs of unrelated adults.
Uh huh. Again, because 5 justices “discovered in the Fourteenth Amendment a ‘fundamental right’ overlooked by every person alive at the time of ratification, and almost everyone else in the time since.” And “any citizen who does not agree with that, who adheres to what was, until 15 years ago, the unanimous judgment of all generations and all societies, stands against the Constitution.”
As noted originally, they literally made this right up out of constitutional whole cloth and imposed their policy preferences on the nation. Like the arrogant sods created a constitutional right to abortion.
Uh, the right to marry was recognized as fundamental under the Fourteenth Amendment Due Process Clause in 1923 in an opinion written by Justice James McReynolds:
Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390, 399 (1923).
do you think Loving v Virginia was wrongly decided, then? anti-miscegenation laws were common after the 14th Amendment was ratified.
No, Loving is irrelevant. Loving concerned racial restrictions on marriage. It did not concern the redefinition of marriage as something other than a union between a man and a woman.
They could always get married and get recognized, licensed, and taxed by the state. It's just that the word "married" by definition meant a hetero coupling, throughout all of human history right up until a couple years ago when they launched a campaign to change that by judicial fiat.
It’s not about semantics, anyone can call themselves married and anyone can try and pull out your bigotry disguised as janky anthropology.
It’s about official recognition. Like…when I talk to my peers (straight couples) when they decide whether or not to get married, and that’s their calculus more than any benefit from the state.
"when I talk to my peers "
Back to unverified anecdotes I see. Strange how everyone you talk to agrees with you position on things!
The ‘like’ construction precedes something illustrative, not probative.
It was all about the M word and the culture war, they could have had all the same tax and legal benefits but there was no interest in that.
“ that’s their calculus more than any benefit from the state.”
Thanks for not reading.
"word "married" by definition meant a hetero coupling, throughout all of human history right up until a couple years ago when they launched a campaign to change that by judicial fiat."
Do you have any evidence of this? "All of human history" includes native American and Polynesian cultures who practiced same-sex "marriage." It pops up in various forms throughout history as unions officially recognized by communities. So unless you're going to focus only on the very narrow English word "marriage" in the context of Western European culture, post Rome, and stick to that like a leaky life raft, you've got nothing here.
Assuming that your qualifications are correct, when analyzing OUR law, we look at Western European culture, post Rome, particularly the English common law which is what our constitution is based on.
No new goalposts. ML made a ridiculous pronouncement.
You are making a different wrong argument.
Okay, so narrowing it down from "all of human history" to just United States law in the past 248 years rather than 10,000 plus years.
Then yes, US law never allowed for same-sex marriages until 2004. (Massachusetts)
But it's also true that US law on marriage hasn't been stable in those 248 years and the "definition of marriage" as coded in law has changed dramatically in the last 100 or so years. The biggest change was women's role shifting from chattel; that happened in the late 19th to early 20th century. Next thing you know, women could legally deny sex from their husbands and divorce them without having to get their permission first.
Same-sex couples are, for the most part, nearly identical to other infertile couples that have married throughout history. That was far, far less of a change than women gaining independence from their husbands.
NO they could always couple like wild beasts and call it marriage.
Many accept gay marriage but most loathe it and are disgusted by it.
Replace "most" in that sentence with "I" and it becomes an obviously true statement from bye.
According to a 2013 Pew Research Center survey, 72% of Russians consider homosexuality to be morally unacceptable. This sentiment is consistent across Russian society, with nearly equal numbers of men and women, and young and old people thinking homosexuality is unacceptable
Seriously? You're using a 12 year old survey of Russians as your backup for that claim in a thread about a same sex marriage case in the U.S.?
Edit: Is this your way of admitting that you're a Russian troll bot?
Some opposition to gay marriage is due to outright bigotry. Other, due to the views of some people, that whenever someone else gets rights, they themselves must somehow be losing out.
Perhaps in his next relevant column Prof Somin can write an article exposing the poor arguments advanced in dissent - e.g., Thomas's preposterous position that allowing gay marriage would threaten religious liberty.
"preposterous position that allowing gay marriage would threaten religious liberty"
So the jihad against Masterpiece Cakeshop never happened?
Bob clearly too stupid to understand the difference between letting gays marry and compelling other people in private businesses to participate.
A pity everybody knew all along that the latter would be inevitable if the former happened.
Without Obergefell, a baker could refuse to service a same-sex wedding but not refuse to service an inter-faith wedding?
Got nothing to do with Obergefell, but instead (mostly state) 'civil rights' laws that prohibit private discrimination. (Which the 14th amendment does not reach, of course, so calling them 'civil rights' laws is a misnomer, they're 'statutory rights' laws.)
Once the courts imposed a 'right' to SSM, those laws automatically kicked in, as everybody who was paying attention knew they would.
Those laws did not already apply before Obergefell in the states that had them?
They applied as soon as the lower courts in the appropriate circuits had ruled. Like I keep saying, it was all over but the shouting by the time the Supreme court got involved.
The laws did not apply before the appropriate lower court rulings on marriage?
That's because before the relevant court rulings, refusing to bake a wedding cake for a non-wedding was a non-issue, too.
As I mentioned a moment ago before scrolling down and seeing this, this is wrong.
If anything, it was Lawrence v. Texas, not Obergefell, that opened the door to widespread protection for sexual orientation in antidiscrimination law.
I don't understand Brett's non-wedding comment. I also don't understand the relevance of Lawrence. Blue states were protecting gay rights in anti-discrimination statutes before Lawrence.
In blue states, maybe. But not purple states. Pre-Lawrence, a common argument against extending various legal protections to gay people was that their conduct was actually illegal.
“Which the 14th amendment does not reach, of course, so calling them 'civil rights' laws is a misnomer, they're 'statutory rights' laws”
Me when I don’t know anything about law or history but pretend I do.
Most civil rights laws are statutory, LTG. Statutes enacted pursuant to Article I, § 8, states' authority under the Tenth Amendment, the Thirteenth Amendment, § 2, the Fourteenth Amendment, § 5 or the Fifteenth Amendment, § 2.
Statutory civil rights are civil rights, dumbass.
But what was the final outcome of the case?
BTW do you agree with the outcome of Obergefell?
No, I don't, as a procedural matter. I don't think it was a policy decision that the judiciary were entitled to make, they basically took the most extreme interpretation of a defeated constitutional amendment, and read it into an old amendment that would have been DOA if anybody had even thought it had that implication. That's illegitimate, a judicial usurpation of the people's right to amend the Constitution or refuse to amend it.
As far as policy goes, I would have no particular objection to statutorily legalizing SSM, if people were left free to not be forced to be complicit in it. But, of course, everybody who was paying attention knew they wouldn't be.
Yes, and the people who now support the tyrannical public accommodation laws smirk when you tell them that they were lying all along about not trying to require this result.
In the end, however, the problem is public accommodation laws, not their application to gays.
"In the end, however, the problem is public accommodation laws, not their application to gays."
Exactly.
Back in the late 80's and early 90's , I had a gay co worker and a gay client that had probate issues after thier partners died from aids. For that reason, I was in favor of enacting state statutes, similar to the family code for gay marriage. With the statutes providing similar property right protection as provided under the family code.
That being said, the obergefell was a gross misapplication of the EP clause.
It’s heavily criticized today for its not relying on the EP clause.
Malika the Maiz 46 minutes ago
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Mute User
"It’s heavily criticized today for its not relying on the EP clause."
There are approx 25 times "equal protection" is mentioned in the opinion including the following:
"The right of same-sex couples to marry that is part of the liberty promised by the Fourteenth Amendment isderived, too, from that Amendment’s guarantee of theequal protection of the laws."
The imposition of this disability on gaysand lesbians serves to disrespect and subordinate them. And the Equal Protection Clause, like the Due ProcessClause, prohibits this unjustified infringement of thefundamental right to marry.
And until the courts got into it, the fundamental right to marry was the fundamental right to marry somebody you could legally marry.
Not a sister or brother, not a minor or corpse, not a frog or a toaster, and not somebody who wasn't of the opposite sex.
And gays were in no way denied that right, though they didn't particularly want to exercise it, any more than people in love with their own children did.
This is not analogous to inter-racial marriage, because THAT actually had a relevant amendment, which had been put into effect as anticipated by the courts until Pace v Alabama, which like Slaughterhouse, was the Supreme court deliberately spiking an amendment they didn't like.
Joe_dallas 2 hours ago
"The imposition of this disability on gays and lesbians serves to disrespect and subordinate them. And the Equal Protection Clause, like the Due ProcessClause, prohibits this unjustified infringement of the fundamental right to marry."
My bad - this was a qoute from Kennedy's opinion. forgot to label as such
page 22 of the opinion - "These considerations lead to the conclusion that the right to marry is a fundamental right inherent in theliberty of the person, and under the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment couples of the same-sex may not be deprived of that right and that liberty."
Why is the right marry only fundamental to exactly two unrelated adults and not to everyone?
That is one of the problems with the reasoning - liberty and EP, the fundemental right to marry one of your chosing, your brother, the 15 year old niece, multiple wifes at the same time. The reasoning allows the court to reach any outcome based result desired.
The right to marry is fundamental to all persons present in the United States. In the event of litigation, state laws impinging upon that right must be justified by the state according to heightened scrutiny.
So, Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2, if you and your sister are hot for one another to the point of wanting to marry, then hire a lawyer, pay the filing fee to the clerk, and file a lawsuit.
Because most of the examples you've given are not actually on point. Marriage is, among other things, a contract. Neither corpses, animals, nor minors can consent to a contract. Incest risks birth defects in the offspring, though I suppose that wouldn't be an issue with same sex incest. Polygamy might pass equal protection.
The latter had nothing to do with the former; laws forbidding discrimination based on sexual orientation in public accommodations predate the legalization of gay marriage.
(That was one of the ironies of cases like Elane Photography; the state of New Mexico discriminated by not letting gays get married, but forbid photographers from similar discrimination.)
New Mexico currently discriminates against siblings by banning sibling marriage and poly's by banning poly-marriage.
Weird how fundamental rights can be so conveniently gerrymandered.
Take it up with Colorado, they are the ones "compelling other people" to participate in the same sex "wedding" celebration despite their religious objections.
Clinton wins in 2016, states would be by now compelling churches to "marry" same sex couples and SCOTUS would be allowing.
How would you feel if people put your marriage in scare quotes because it wasn’t done in a Christian ceremony?
Why should I care what others put in quotes?
You don’t care when people insult and demean your family?
I think you put "lawyer" in quotes last week about me, I just laughed it off.
Did you? You still remember. And again it’s not just about you, it’s about your family.
I mean would you say this to a gay couple’s face?
I"m curious, how does one say " "?
Well you have hands for making air quotes. Also you can use a sarcastic and dismissive tone.
Like if you had a gay coworker, and they got married what would you say to them?
If they're that sensitive about it, that's their problem, not ours.
Assholes often believe it’s the other person’s problem.
mirror
You’re saying I’m a mirror and when you look at me you see an asshole?
Does Bob get more animated about anything else than his perceived anti-Israel/Semitic issues?
Bob, homosexuals are mentally ill and if you don't approve of them as a parental proxy, then they will unalive themselves. This is just APA doctrine.
Interesting, will Bob be more inclined to side with the antisemitic homophobe or vice versa?
"How would you feel if people put your marriage in scare quotes because it wasn’t done in a Christian ceremony?"
Marriage is a specifically Christian ceremony.
Gays were offered civil unions and they did not want it for...reasons.
Jews, Muslims, Hindus and others don’t have weddings and aren’t married?
He’s going to have to think here. The Jews thing, he’s heard, he’s not supposed to denigrate. Those others, easy. But how to thread this????
LawTalkingGuy 52 minutes ago
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"Jews, Muslims, Hindus and others don’t have weddings and aren’t married?"
Since When have Jews, Muslims and Hindus have not had weddings?
They do! That’s why it’s weird to describe “marriage as a specifically Christian ceremony”
I’m absolutely begging the conservative commenters here to at least TRY.
I don't think dami lives in a country where the practice of those religions is legal.
And blacks who are seated at the back of the bus generally get to their destination at about the same time as the people seated at the front of the bus, but that's not the point. The point is that by refusing the word, the state was making a point of making gay couples second class citizens.
But on the subject of the bakeshop, since religious discrimination is illegal, a gay baker could not legally refuse to bake a cake for a homophobic church that was having an event. It hardly seems fair to require one baker to make a cake but not the other. So if we're going to strip gay protections from civil rights laws, I think fairness requires that religious protections be stripped from it as well.
Second class citizens like the polyamorous or single people?
One problem at a time.
Thats how fundamental human rights work?
No, that's how human nature works.
I see, so your defense of marriage inequality is that it's "human nature".
That's pretty shameful.
"I see, so your defense of marriage inequality is that it's "human nature"."
No, I think she's saying that human nature is inevitably going to slow the march to legally protected necrophilia, pedophilia, and zoophilia.
What I actually meant is that these issues tend to arise piecemeal rather than being dealt with all at once.
Brett, marriage is a contract, and neither animals, corpses nor children have the capacity to enter into a contract. Nice try, though.
Piecemeal is also how courts see issues, fwiw.
Fairness? Because praying is just like sodomy? Weird analogy.
They have their belief system; you have yours.
"Marriage is a specifically Christian ceremony."
Is that as true as everything else you have said, damikesc?
Jihad? JFC.
SRG2 is simply lazy
Materpiece Cake resulted in SCOTUS singling out religious liberty !!!!
I qoute from the actual decision against the famous (on here) laziness of SRG2
" clear
and impermissible hostility toward the sincere religious beliefs motivating his objection. As the record shows, some of the commissioners
at the Commission’s formal, public hearings endorsed the view that
religious beliefs cannot legitimately be carried into the public sphere
or commercial domain, disparaged Phillips’ faith as despicable and
characterized it as merely rhetorical, and compared his invocation of
his sincerely held religious beliefs to defenses of slavery and the Holocaust. No commissioners objected to the comments. Nor were they
mentioned in the later state-court ruling or disavowed in the briefs
filed here. The comments thus cast doubt on the fairness and impartiality of the Commission’s adjudication of Phillips’ case. "
I feel very good about exposing the hate-based ignorance. ANYONE who followed Masterpiece knows the Court was disgusted with the attack on religious liberty.
TAKE THIS TO HEART, READERS 🙂
To suggest opposition to the redefinition of marriage is based upon animus to gays exposes only your own biased opinion. And it also seems that there is no room in your narrow viewpoint to those opposed to the Court imposing their policy preferences on the issue by judicial fiat.
Are you suggesting that Christian marriage is an establishment of religion?
Uh no, don't even understand why you would assert that. But to move on, the understanding of marriage as a union between a man and woman is not an exclusively Christian notion. Up until a relatively short time ago, it was "the unanimous judgment of all generations and all societies" to quote the great Scalia. (And even in those few circumstances of polygamy, it was never between members of the same sex, historically speaking). But my point is that it is absurd to label any opposition to this judicially imposed redefinition of marriage as bigotry.
Riva that is pure natural law, the right of children to be raised by their natural parents and the right of a prospective mother to have the support lifelong of her husband.
THat is not this
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/09/05/us/05dc-buttigieg-print/04dc-buttigieg-superJumbo.jpg
UTTERLY DISGUSTING
Thomas is right and you can see it in these comments. Disgust at the perverted lust of gays is attributed to religion. Whereas I know many where it was the opposite: They realized as atheists the immorality of homosexual behavior and of abortion and that put them on a path to a conversion.
But 4 logic errors
1) you can be a bigot and still recognize perversion. A thief knows this when someone steals from him !
2) you equate homosexual perversion with the perversion of gay marriage , showing you dont even understand the origins of comments you don't approve.
3) If someone in society is acting the pig then ipso facto others are losing out...the good example the pervert could have given is now gone, the advertizing of perversion is increased. harm to children is done. As a necessity of logic IF you give rights to perversion there must be a losing out for society
4) Your own views on bestiality would be subject to the same excuse you give about homosexual acts: It can't be perverted because someone is doing it and likes doing it.
Only eleven paragraphs in, do we get this admission: "Obergefell does have one important shortcoming: the Court's reliance on flawed legal reasoning."
I'd accuse Ilya of violating his academic principles by burying what is, for a legal scholar, arguably the most important aspect of a landmark case, but I'm not going to pretend he's not just a shill larping as a researcher.
Why do you have to make me defend Ilya?
He states as much in the first paragraph (and the subhead).
"The Court got the right result. But its reasoning should have been better. Instead of relying on a dubious mishmash of rationales, the Court would have done better to rule that laws banning same-sex marriage are unconstitutional because they discriminate on the basis of sex."
Don't defend him. A preferred result in search of legal support is not a mere "shortcoming." It completely undermines the ruling. The case is nothing but a gross abuse of power by a court legislating a policy outcome.
But that is a worse characterization. Yes, they discriminate on the basis of what sex is for and what it isn't for.
Obergefell was like Roe, no federal constitutional question (beyond full faith and credit). But unlike Roe, many have subsequently continued to rely on it making overturning it impossible. Require other states recognize such marriages? Sure! Redefine marriage, because of some hazy dignity and animus justification used to leaven equal protecton? Yeah, not so much. It's not sex discrimination, nor animus, because an original primary reason for state recognition of marriage was the children that often result.
At least Somin acknowledges this flawed legal reasoning.
"making overturning it impossible."
Only if the will is lacking.
SCOTUS could reverse but make it prospective only. So not impossible.
SCOTUS could reverse but make it prospective only. So not impossible.
Has that ever been done? I don't see how the Court could logically say Obergefell was wrongly decided, overrule it, and then say it still applies to same-sex marriages created before the overruling. The only case I could see not retrospectively applying an overruling would be regarding criminal law and that's because it would be significantly similar to an Ex Post Facto law.
SCOTUS has full equity powers. As the last 60+ years [at least] show, it can do what it wants and make up the rational.
Sure, and while in theory they could have reversed all those lower court rulings they had deliberately allowed to accumulate, dissolving a bunch of weddings they had deliberately allowed to be performed wasn't going to happen. And saying, "These weddings (we deliberately allowed to be performed before taking any of the numerous appeals to decisions permitting them) will be permitted to stand, but no more may be performed." was a non-starter.
I guess I'm saying they had a pretty good idea how they were going to rule in the end, and were just letting the lower courts take the heat until the public became resigned to it.
"reversed all those lower court ruling"
Weren't most state constitution based? The 6th circuit had no problem reversing the district court in Obergefell.
It wasn't inevitable, it was just the misfortune than Tony K. though he was the Gay Savior.
No, as I recall the courts switched to federal constitution based rulings shortly after discovering that state constitution based rulings usually resulted in state constitutions being swiftly amended.
Another conspiracy from old reliable Brett!
Somin wanted the same result in Obergefell but wanted it to be based on some other reasoning that was equally shitty. Sex discrimination and EP.
So he gets no credit here.
Millennial Lawyer is mad about the outcome recognizing gay marriage, independent of the reasoning.
He is a rare type for his cohort.
No, because of the reasoning, and Somin's alternative reasoning isn't any better. There isn't any good reasoning, it's just a blatantly made up wrong answer. I was for legislative solutions.
"...because an original primary reason for state recognition of marriage was the children that often result."
Oh gawd. This canard again.
Do you have any evidence of this claim you've made?
Here's a hint: marriage started as a state function in order for wealthy men to designate which of their women's children would be heirs and which would be bastards. The poor had no need of this and didn't have official state marriages. Google it up and read some history. People don't need marriage to make babies--never have.
Expanding the definition of Sex Discrimination as Prof Somin suggests is the left-wing version of MAGA's reinterpreting the "subject to the jurisdiction" language in the 14A citizenship clause.
Sex discrimination has been pretty much universally understood to exclude "sexual orientation" discrimination since at least the 1970s.
Moreover, given the holdings in Loving v Virginia and Lawrence v Texas, the outcome in Obergefell was a foregone conclusion. Romer made it even easier.
I disagree with the holding in Bostock, but agree that the sex discrimination angle in trans cases is on much stronger footing than in standard LGB cases.
Why do you think trans cases are on much stronger footing?
I see trans status as much closer to conventional male/female biological sex/gender status. LGB/sexual orientation is a step removed, more like marital status or whether one has children etc. One can argue as to whether discrimination based on those statuses should be forbidden, but I do not see them as directly subsumed under "sex discrimination".
In general, the objections to homosexuality tend to boil down to, paraphrasing, "men not behaving like men." I don't believe the primary objections to homosexuality come from a discrimination against "sexual orientation" as much as they do from a belief that specific sexes have defined roles in society and homosexual do things that they are the wrong sex for. Sex discrimination is more complex than whether you have a penis or a vagina; it is more about traditional expectations for the roles each sex is supposed to play in society.
"Instead of relying on a dubious mishmash of rationales, the Court would have done better to rule that laws banning same-sex marriage are unconstitutional because they discriminate on the basis of sex."
So much for the ability of states to refuse to ratify amendments. Don't ratify the ERA? No problem, we'll just pretend the 14th amendment already does the work!
Well, he did use the term "better", rather than "perfectly"...
I think Obergefell v. Hodges is overall a good opinion.
It could have had a bit more history showing how same sex marriage developed over time. How it was not really "newer than cell phones" to quote Alito. But overall, it was a good opinion.
The advocates focused on how they wanted to be married just like everyone else. It was a right to marry movement. It made sense the opinion largely focused on that. The right to marry was longstanding. The debate is over what it entails.
The opinion also explains the key components of marriage, including that it is a (quoting Griswold) "bilateral loyalty." Outsiders become insiders etc. So, not incest or polygamy. Various classifications of monogamous marriages were unconstitutional. A barrier to same sex marriage fit into the general framework.
[I personally would have inserted a long paragraph found in Turner v. Safley about what marriage offers.]
Obergefell v. Hodges is a logical progression in the gay and lesbian cases. Scalia "warned" us about that in Lawrence.
There is also the complaint the opinion was not clear enough regarding equal protection. What was the level of scrutiny offered in Heller (the gun case)? The use of the old levels of scrutiny framework have become less popular in recent years.
I think the opinion creatively provides a discussion of the "synergy" of liberty and equality as expressed in multiple cases. The opinion notes that "disrespect and subordinate" is an important concern.
I understand the desire for more specificity but there is a certain artificial nature to trying to do too much in one case. That arguably was a problem with Roe. I accept the opinion as is.
It wasn't a right to marry movement at all. Since the gay marriage advocates attacked the poly-marriage advocates.
It was a right to appropriate normal and natural culture so a demented minority can ape being normal themselves.
People who support same sex marriage have various views about marriage overall. Some are open to poly arrangements.
"Right to marry" is a bit of shorthand. But, overall, in our country, it will usually mean monogamous marriage.
Terms repeatedly don't assume the broadest possible meaning. A "ball game" means a certain type of ball.
It was about having equal rights in society. Interracial couples fought for the same thing. They once (and some still think this) were treated as "demented" or "unnatural" and so forth. It was "normal" to treat Justice Thomas and Jackson's marriages with such terms.
Why do those equal rights stop at exactly two unrelated adults?
Because we legally define marriage, and we decided that the definition should only involve two people. Hence, only unrelated couples can marry.
If we had legal marriages between three people, or between people and animals, then equal rights would apply.
Well marriage was legally defined as between a man and a woman and that was determined to violate fundamental liberty rights. How doesn't this new legal definition not also violate fundamental liberty rights?
You can't claim a tautology.
Bruh...
“normal and natural culture”
Cool story, bro.
It's important to realize that, by the time Obergefell came around, the lower courts had already imposed SSM on most of the nation for years, and made it very clear they didn't give a damn what anybody thought about it. One state after another democratically rejected it, only to have the courts override the voters' decision.
All the Court did in Obergefell was officially finalize that victory, which was in most places 100% judicial, not the result of persuading the public.
It is in the nature of rights that you don't deny them just because a majority of people wish to.
It is in the nature of constitutions that you don't amend them without getting the people's permission, and that's what the judiciary did here: They took something nobody had thought the 14th meant, and which killed the ERA as soon as people took seriously the idea that IT might imply that, and forced it down the public's collective throat in the teeth of massive democratic push back. Even California voted against SSM!
Changes like this should be accomplished by formal amendment of the Constitution, not judicial fads steamrollering the nation in defiance of multiple democratic votes.
They took something nobody had thought the 14th meant,
As I said elsewhere, this is a silly argument. You yourself have said, when it suited you, that interpreting the Constitution requires no more than reading it.
OK.
...nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Where does that say the protections don't apply to homosexuals? It doesn't matter what the drafters thought. Even if we knew exactly what they thought, it wouldn't matter. (And do you think that not even one of them, or of the ratifiers, thought it protected the rights of homosexuals?)
Again, as I said elsewhere, opinion changes, knowledge grows. Today's attitudes differ from those of 150 years ago. Obergefell didn't change the text, it demanded a closer adherence to it.
"It's my right to suddenly redefine a word to something different than all of human history for culture war reasons"
Feel free to keep using your definition of marriage!
Sure to be a hit at parties.
They were able to do it because the public largely approved of it by 2015 and were happy to let the courts implement it, or at least didn’t care either way. There’s a reason the Respect for Marriage Act passed by such margins.
And, YET AGAIN, Obergefell came after the lower courts had done the dirty work of steamrollering over public opposition, and the public had finally become resigned to the fact that the judiciary were not going to give them any choice in the matter.
The judiciary had fired up that steamroller at least 12 years prior. By the time the Court deigned to take such a case, SSM was the judicially imposed law of the land in most of the country, (37 states) the Supreme court was just doing cleanup on a war the courts had already won.
SCOTUS did not grant certiorari in a same sex marriage case until the Sixth Circuit created and inter-circuit split. They were not eager to address the question.
You aren’t going to talk Brett out of a conspiracy he’s into, but it is always fun to see the countervailing evidence pile up.
I'm not seeing any countervailing evidence at all. I'm seeing you wanting to believe that my thesis is something this evidence is contrary to. Not Guilty didn't contradict me immediately above, can you not understand that?
The Court let the lower judiciary impose SSM on the nation in state after state, circuit after circuit, refusing multiple appeals, and only finally took Obergefell after the lower courts had done all the dirty work, and the public had become resigned to the fact that the judiciary were not giving them any choice about it.
My thesis is that Obergefell didn't win the war for SSM, it just signed the terms of surrender. SSM didn't win by persuading anybody but judges, and enough members of Congress to prevent a national defense of marriage amendment from being originated. The change in public opinion came AFTER the courts had imposed it, rather than driving it.
So, don't talk to me about public opinion at the time Obergefell was decided. Obergefell was really decided the first time the Court got a cert petition for a SSM case and refused to take it, because if they hadn't intended to let the lower courts prosecute this war to final victory, they'd have granted certiorari BEFORE reliance interests kicked in.
Obergefell is one of the first SCOTUS opinions I've read. Read so many times, while I was riding a bus to school, that I think I memorized the introduction. Let's see how much I can get it right...
The Constitution promises liberty to all within its reach, a liberty that includes certain specific rights that allow persons, within a lawful realm, to define and express their identities. The plaintiffs in these cases seek to do so by marrying someone of the same sex, or having the States recognize same-sex marriages on the same terms and conditions as marriages between persons of the opposite sex.
Why is that right of recognition limited to only the romantic configuration of two unrelated people?
Maybe read the opinion?
I also understand the desire to use sex discrimination as the criterion here. It is at least a factor in sexual orientation discrimination. Ancient stereotypes on sex roles, etc.
But there has not been broad acceptance of that approach. People generally understand it as a matter of sexual orientation. This is true in lower court opinions, too. Gays and lesbian themselves also promoted that framework.
The opinion fits into a series of cases involving sexual orientation. It was not going to start anew any more than the Supreme Court in McDonald v. Chicago was going to use the Privileges or Immunities Clause even if this was on some level sensible on first principles.
Bostock was working off a statute that was specifically about "sex." The Constitution, however, is written in more open-ended terms. And, the conservatives particularly don't like using groups at all. They want to make it about individual persons.
I thought Alito's concurrence in Skrmetti argued that either men or women as a group had to be disfavored for a sex-based EP claim to succeed. In contrast, Sotomayor argued the EP clause, like Bostock, applies to each individual even if women or men as a group are not disfavored.
Alito is not known for his doctrinal purity when he wants to get to a certain result. He plays some Calvinball. The point regarding conservatives holds overall.
Sotomayor opens by talking about sex classifications and later how more searching scrutiny is warranted for discrete and insular minorities. She supports race-based affirmative action.
Her language about how to interpret sex classifications fits into an overall context. She does not merely treat each individual qua individual with no notice of the group they fit into.
"Particularly" speaking, I hold to my comment.
Proof positive of the crisis in American jurisprudence, "Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg openly stated that the shift in public attitudes had paved the way for such a ruling, whereas earlier she had feared the public would not accept it."
The idea that courts decide matters based on the law is obviously dead give this quote. Judges look more at opinion polls that the law.
Like to see the context of that quote.
It's from this very article. Try paragraph six.
The understanding of things affects how the law operates.
Changing public understandings helped Brown v. Board of Education too.
The Constitution involves wide open concepts for which the particulars ("speech" or "due process") change over time.
Law continues. The same concept applies when applying the meaning of the Magna Charta and other foundational documents.
Don't forget that running up to that decision we had granted women the right to vote and they could get their own financial credit independent of a husband, we'd passed no-fault divorce, and child welfare laws didn't pivot on the marital status of the parents. Then we overturned sodomy laws for consenting adults. All of these things had to exist before same-sex marriage could happen. Opposite-sex marriage was about love, didn't require children to be considered valid and welcomed by the community, and the marriage existed until the parties opted to separate. Once marriage evolved to reach that point, the only reason against admitting consenting same-sex adults was because we never had before. If you read upthread, you'll see attempts to tie marriage to children (despite some states requiring certain couple to prove sterility beforehand) and general exclamations of "ick!" I'm sure some folks in other threads will say "god said so" as well but we tend not to see much of that in a "libertarian" blog site.
"Once marriage evolved to reach that point, the only reason against admitting consenting same-sex adults was because we never had before."
The strongest argument against Obergefell isn't that it's a bad policy, but instead that it wasn't a policy the judiciary were entitled to impose. That the job of the judiciary is enforcing rules other people made, and this wasn't enforcing rules other people had made, but instead imposing a CHANGE in the rules, and quite openly contrary to the expressed will of the electorate in one state after another.
All the legitimacy of the judiciary derives from the claim that they are just enforcing the rules the people have already agreed to through their elected representatives, or long, long practice. In the case of Obergefell, this claim was transparently a fraud.
That the job of the judiciary is enforcing rules other people made, and this wasn't enforcing rules other people had made
You mean, like the 14th Amendment?
The central problem here is that the very concept of marriage itself evolved at a time when conditions and attitudes were very different, and the real question is what is the extent to which the institution itself is still useful. More and more couples are choosing not to get married at all. More and more couples are choosing not to have children. Almost no one thinks you can still sell your daughter for six cows. Or kidnap your bride from a neighboring tribe. The Bible treats the wife as property: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's." She gets lumped in with the house, the servants and the animals.
When humanity consisted of small tribal groups on the African savannah, marriage made sense. In our modern, industrial society there's a question as to how much it still does.
So maybe instead of tweaking it by arguing about whether gays get in on it, we should instead be re-visiting the institution itself. What would replace it is a subject for another thread, but I think that is the question.
You sound Jewish.
That aside, the natural marriage is the cornerstone to a biologically intact natural family, which is the fundamental unit of any society. It acts as the bulwark against encroachments from the State and deserves protections.
"You sound Jewish" disqualifies you from being taken seriously. And I'm actually an unbeliever who was raised evangelical Christian.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/publiccatholic/2013/05/12688/
>That causes my brain some trouble. And part of why it causes me trouble is because fighting for gay marriage generally involves lying about what we are going to do with marriage when we get there—because we lie that the institution of marriage is not going to change, and that is a lie. The institution of marriage is going to change, and it should change. And again, I don’t think it should exist.
Like I said, you sound Jewish.
Your continued refusal to address points and your instance on lame deflections disqualifies you, sir.
We knew that, it's in bright neon though you are unaware it is.
Ex-Christians have a distinctive way of acting.
If it's in bright neon, then why did your co-idiot think I sounded Jewish?
you're reading a law blog mostly written by Jews. if you're so fulminantly anti-Semitic what the hell are you doing here?
There are good arguments for society-stabilizing relationships where two people are able to provide assistance to each other and each other's proximate relatives. This structure reduces the demand on the government to pick up that role.
I'd also point out that what we call "marriage" is likely not what tribal members in the African savannah would have recognized. Joint tax returns? Joint inheritance and social security benefits? FMLA benefits? etc. For me, "marriage" as we think of it started around the 12th century when the Catholic church started nosing into inheritance procedures in Rome.
I suspect the Supreme Court isn't going to revisit Obergefell v. Hodges. You would have to prove that same-sex couples marrying harms anyone, and there is no evidence of that. Fact is, marriage equality for same-sex couples shouldn't have taken as long as it did. There was never any constitutional justification for denying law-abiding, taxpaying Gay couples the same right to marry that Straight couples have always taken for granted. What more legal reasoning do you need?
Churches have never been forced to provide weddings for anyone, and it's a moot point anyway, since the legal benefits of marriage don't come from the church, they come from the federal government. Procreation and parenting are irrelevant also, since couples do not need to marry to make babies, nor is the ability or even desire to make babies a prerequisite for a marriage license.
According to the Government Accountability Office (GAO) there are 1,138 legal protections, regulations, and responsibilities that pertain specifically to married couples. Much of this has to do with Social Security, inheritance, healthcare, etc. If the government wanted to get out of the marriage business altogether, it would be a legal quagmire.
Some would also suggest that marriage should be left up to individual states, but the point would be moot since a marriage honored in one state is honored across state lines. Marriage is fundamentally a contractual agreement between two adults. Any couple can fly off to Las Vegas for the weekend, get married by an Elvis impersonator, and that marriage is automatically honored back home, thanks to the "Full Faith and Credit" clause.
As stated above, I was in favor of enacting gay marriage statutes parallel / similar to the traditional marriage statutes since the late 1980's / early 1990's primarily for property right and probate protection. Co-worker's brother died of aids and dealing with a clients probate issues. Again, the legal reasoning in Obergefell was very much results oriented and the rationale allows the court to reach any outcome so desired by the court. (we think multiple wives deprive a man of his liberty under the EP clause of 14A, or any similar outcome pushed by advocates. )
I actually thought that polygamy had a much better constitutional claim than same sex marriage, as it was a traditional form of marriage at least as old as monogamous marriage, and is widely practiced in the world today, and so fell under the normal definition of "marriage" without any sophistry at all.
Really, not a 14th amendment issue, but a 1st amendment issue, since the prohibition on polygamy was essentially just taking sides in a religious dispute.
"What more legal reasoning do you need?"
There are two fundamental issues here that needed legal reasoning.
The first the argument the word marriage actually incorporated the whole man-woman thing as part of its meaning, so that extending "marriage" to same sex couples amounted to redefining a word that already had an existing meaning. That's why marriage laws didn't come out and SAY that it was between a man and a woman prior to the courts jumping on the SSM bandwagon: It would have been redundant!
You need as a matter of legal reasoning to establish that this wasn't really the case.
The second is that by reading into the 14th amendment something that nobody had previously thought it meant, and that had actually been rejected as an amendment when formally proposed, the judiciary were robbing the states of their explicit constitutional power to refuse to ratify constitutional amendments.
To claim that Obergefell v. Hodges, 576 U.S. 644 (2015), "redefined" marriage is a canard. Everyone who was eligible to marry on June 25, 2015 remained eligible to do so on June 27, 2015.
Obergefell merely broadened the universe of those who could avail themselves of the benefits and obligations of marriage.
... by redefining marriage.
That's why marriage laws didn't come out and SAY that it was between a man and a woman prior to the courts jumping on the SSM bandwagon: It would have been redundant!
WTF?
They didn't say it because that was the only kind of marriage that was legal. IOW, the only reason it was redundant was because of other statutes, not because of all the BS about definitions and so on.
You don't specify that a law covers something non-existent. Animal cruelty laws don't protect unicorns.
I suspect the Supreme Court isn't going to revisit Obergefell v. Hodges.
Indeed not, though I do expect that Thomas will suggest that it be, in any number of largely unrelated cases, like a bloviating Cato.
Thomas already did in his Dobbs concurrence.
You want to force everyone to your view that procreation and parenting are irrelevant to marriage. That is one of the damaging aspects of Obergefell.
"You want to force everyone to your view that procreation and parenting are irrelevant to marriage. That is one of the damaging aspects of Obergefell."
Uh, biology did that long before now. Humans were copulating and reproducing much earlier than they were organizing governments to license or withhold licensing from pair bond couples.
Conceiving and rearing offspring may be related to marriage, but neither is the sine qua non of the other.
No, procreation and parenting were always relevant to marriage. For thousands of years.
I don't suggest that procreation and parenting are irrelevant to marriage. But they are not necessary for marriage, and marriage is not necessary for procreation and parenting.
That is a simple matter of biology, not of politics.
You say 4 things that the Constitution rejects but let me recur to the recent study of the Founders on marriage
Founders at the state and national level shaped marriage law to reflect five vital components of marital unity: the equality and complementarity of the sexes, consent and permanence in marriage, exclusivity in marriage, marital love, and a union oriented toward procreation and childrearing.
2025 and I still cant (legally) marry my Sister (go ahead, take your shots, in Chess we call this a “Trap”)
Frank
Basically a few loud holdouts in the wrong side of history. Shades of the Lost Cause crew you see around here; baseline crankish assholes with idiosyncratic takes on the course of events and even more idiosyncratic takes on what should happen now.
This is what a victory in liberty, rights, and progress looks like these days.
Hey, that's enough to win a law school award!
And Blackman’s support, natch.
Do they have Same Sex Marriage (I have "Seldom Sex Marriage" (rimshot)
in
Iran?
Afghanistan?
Saudi Arabia?
Gaza?
Somalia?
Chy-na! ?
Roosh-a?
Will they have it for much longer in NYC if Ayatollah Zoran Mamasanddapoppas gets erected??
Frank
What I wrote at the time:
I know that a few of my friends are unhappy at the Supreme Court marriage decision - some, because they sincerely believe that marriage uniquely applies to the joining of one man and one woman, others, because they feel that the majority overreached their authority and the decision lacked a proper constitutional grounding - perhaps agreeing with Roberts CJ's dissent when he says, "Many people will rejoice at this decision, and I begrudge none their celebration. But for those who believe in a government of laws, not of men, the majority’s approach is deeply disheartening".
First - as i noted in a previous posting - there are many other more important considerations in the Bible than either homosexual sex or gay marriage. On the ethical side, the Golden Rule, amongst others; on the legal side, pretty much everything in the Ten Commandments. What does the OT think about gay sex? It's in the same section of Leviticus as a number of other sexual prohibitions and which section also holds as at least as abhorrent a sin, a priest being drunk in the temple. Gay sex is not held out as something uniquely abhorrent - else surely it would be in the Ten Commandments or mentioned by Jesus in the NT. As far as marriage is concerned - well, getting married involved no obvious ceremony at all other than a communal recognition, and a "taking"; adultery and divorce, however, were serious. Do any of the people who insist that their conscience will prevent them from serving gay couples or giving them marriage licences similarly insist they will not serve adulterers? Not that I have heard.
Second - OK, without my wishing to use the jeering chant heard on English soccer terraces, "you came all this way, and you lost, and you lo-ost", just accept for the moment that in this one thing your views were defeated, be patient and take note. Look around, and see whether in one year, or five years, or ten years, your life will have been adversely affected by this ruling - and by "affected", I don't mean "still pissed off", I mean materially, If so, then you will be entitled to complain and fight back. But if not, and you can find nothing where in reality the ruling has adversely affected your ability to conduct yourself in accordance with your religious beliefs, then perhaps you will reconsider. In the words of Cromwell, "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken".
NO, just plain wrong , on the Bible and on the history of interpretation
“[A]ll other frenzies of the lusts which exceed the laws of nature, and are impious toward both [human] bodies and the sexes, we banish, not only from the threshold but also from all shelter of the Church, for they are not sins so much as monstrosities” (Modesty 4 [A.D. 220]).
Basil the Great
“He who is guilty of unseemliness with males will be under discipline for the same time as adulterers” (Letters 217:62 [A.D. 367]).
John Chrysostom
“[The pagans] were addicted to the love of boys, and one of their wise men made a law that pederasty . . . should not be allowed to slaves, as if it was an honorable thing; and they had houses for this purpose, in which it was openly practiced. And if all that was done among them was related, it would be seen that they openly outraged nature, and there was none to restrain them. . . . As for their passion for boys, whom they called their paedica, it is not fit to be named” (Homilies on Titus 5 [A.D. 390]
Augustine
“[T]hose shameful acts against nature, such as were committed in Sodom, ought everywhere and always to be detested and punished. If all nations were to do such things, they would be held guilty of the same crime by the law of God, which has not made men so that they should use one another in this way” (Confessions 3:8:15 [A.D. 400]).
The Church and the Jews considered homosexuality one of the greatest of immoralities
NO, just plain wrong , on the Bible
:Interesting that to show this you quote later Christians, not any actual Biblical verses, hence proving my point.
I can cite verses where Jesus condemns hypocrisy. Where are your verses where Jesus condemns homosexuality?
I suspect you know the Bible far less well than you would claim.
FWIW, "45" was the first POTUS who "supported" (or at least didn't oppose) SSM from day 1 of his Term,
That's right, all you Barry Hussein supporters, BHO didn't support SSM in the 2008 Erection (McCain did, you know, because of his daughter, and his pool boy, Ramon) and in the 2004 VP Debates, the "Breck Girl" John Edwards (haven't heard much from him lately, hope he's well) brought up Dick Chaney's Lesbo daughter hoping to get some "R"'s to change sides (worked about as well as anything Edwards ever did)
It took that visionary (vision is scary) Malignant Joe Biden to get BHO to see the light and change his mind, coincidentally at the first time SSM got more than 50% pubic support.
Frank
I guess 10 years is enough for the left to say that Obergefell was a terrible opinion. The reason why the sex discrimination argument wasn't used was because it would have been laughed out of court in 2015. You needed a Gorsuch in Bostock to make that position plausible. At the time it had been universally rejected as it should continue to be.
Let's say it again, if I dislike gays, it is not because I dislike men or dislike women. That is so simple that it strains logic that it needs repeating.
And, dare I say, Somin is spot on with the illogic of the Obergefell argument. So long as I used the word "marry" in an ill-defined way to describe what I am doing, I can do everything so long as I call it marriage. Definitely polygamy or incestuous marriage.
The problem with the opinion was that the previous cases talking about a right to marry where discussing something of an entirely different subject.
Leftists and Marxists care about the result, and not the reasoning.
Almost everyone, myself included, care about the result, and not the reasoning.
FTFY
I don’t think that’s right. Process legitimates things.
There is a reason they gave Joan of Arc and Thomas Moore trials and didn’t skip straight to the outcome.
Suppose a woman is fired for not being sufficiently deferential to men. By your definition that is not technically sex discrimination since women who are deferential to men don't get fired. It's the lack of willingness to be a doormat that got her fired. And it's a sexist stereotype; women are *supposed* to be deferential to men.
As you read Title VII, should she have a case for sex discrimination?
That would be a plausible initial thought. But suppose then you were provided an additional piece of information: that I also fire men for not being willing to be doormats to women.
Wouldn't that piece of information cause you to conclusively determine that whatever my reason for discrimination it is not sex? It is some quality of doormat-teness that I dislike in all people.
I think if you required that everybody be a doormat to everybody else regardless of gender you'd probably be OK. And if you also fired anyone who isn't celibate you could probably get away with that too.
But if you require that men only be doormats to women, and women only be doormats to men? Their gender is the "but for" cause of their termination. Someone of a different gender doing the same thing would still have a job.
Did you read the opinion? Your critique reads like you read Bostock and decided to just use those arguments.
The Court showed its distaste for calling perverted lust marriage,and it was long ago in regard to slavery and bigamy
REYNOLDS 1879 !!!
Suppose one believed that human sacrifices were a necessary part of religious worship, would it be seriously contended that the civil government under which he lived could not interfere to prevent a sacrifice? Or if a wife religiously believed it was her duty to burn herself upon the funeral pile of her dead husband, would it be beyond the power of the civil government to prevent her carrying her belief into practice?
So here, as a law of the organization of society under the exclusive dominion of the United States, it is provided that plural marriages shall not be allowed. Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government could exist only in name under such circumstances. . . .
Is it discriminatory to preclude men access to women's locker rooms, just because they are male?
Yes. The law needs to permit discrimination.
This here is a gay marriage thread.
You want to move on to trans stuff, I guess.
Which as I said above I take as a sign of progress.
No ... this is a logical extension of Somin's argument from discrimination law to permitting same-sex marriage.
"You want to move on to trans stuff, I guess."
He didn't say anything about trans stuff.
And lots of people are talking about analogous issues, like employment discrimination, with nary a peep from you.
Not sure what that has to do with this discussion, but yes, of course. It may be justified discrimination, but that doesn't mean it's not discrimination.
What's the justification for excluding men from women's locker rooms?
The justification is that most women prefer it that way, and that preference has been respected for eons.
The one that said whether men or women you can't change outside on the streets in front of passing cars 🙂 Once you concede the rationale for any separate changing rooms you've lost the argumenht, lex
Lex In Dolo Malo Non Permittit Consilium
Oh, David, such an abominable misuse of words
3 errors from an English teacher's angle
1) You use the word 'discrimination' once as to its denotative meaning and then again the opposite according to its connotative meaning !!!
2) you put "justified" in quotes but that has to mean that it isn't discrimination legally. Or what is justified ?
3) You violate a main rule of logic ( of prime importance in the law) WHAT PROVES OPPOSITES PROVES NOTHING
EIther there is discrimination or there isn't.
There is no right to marriage in the United States Constitution. Marriage is a matter for elected representatives in legislatures.
"A system of government that makes the People subordinate to a committee of nine unelected lawyers does not deserve to be called a democracy."
Hopefully we can celebrate the day Obergefell is overturned, democracy is redeemed, and the states can decide the matter of marriage just as they now do abortion.
I would love that, not because I particularly care if gays get married, but because it would cause gays to leave red states in large numbers, making them redder.
It isn't about marriage, it's about democracy.
People on here have short memories.
The Constitution includes a Full Faith and Credit clause that requires any US state to respect the "public acts, records, and judicial proceedings" of other states which today includes drivers licenses and marriages. That wasn't happening because conservatives knew that if any one state started issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples that they would be obligated to accept them. And so Congress passed the "Defense of Marriage Act" to nip that in the bud. But if we're willing to accept a "let the states decide for themselves" solution where the Full Faith and Credit clause is respected, then we end up exactly where we are today. Legal nerds may wish that we'd gotten here differently, but is this really worth all the effort required to go back and redo it to only arrive in the same place but with a cleaner backstory?
Or, do I detect a bit of bad faith in the desire to "let the states decide" like there was with DoMA?
No, full faith and credit contains policy exceptions. That's why commie states don't have to honor gun permits from American states.
States are allowed not to recognize out-of-state marriages (such as for first cousins) if they violate public policy. There is an independent equal protection requirement to follow.
DOMA was perhaps somewhat redundant in that sense. The rules are stricter for "judicial proceedings," including those involving marriages. And, DOMA was also about federal benefits.
DOMA was stricter than the policy for interracial marriages during Jim Crow, underlining the dislike of gays and lesbians. Jim Crow states sometimes recognized out-of-state interracial marriages for limited reasons, such as arising from lawsuits.
There was a good book on that last point, but I can't find it right now.
Thank you, Joe.
Does Shawn know this was delivered by Hillary ,who very soon after repudiated the whole thing 🙂
THIS IS A SCREAMER in retrospect
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1-r1YgK9I
She was 57 and adamant and then she wasn't
Marriage is a man and a woman only
, is that you , Hillary ? using the name Shawn, Is that you, Hillary
In my circles and my reading it was a disaster. Now if you say homosexual acts are perverted and anti-society, YOU are the pervert, not accepting 2 mal-formed immature males engaging in lust
Needs more rampant members.
I haven’t heard homosexuality as immaturity since I was learning about Victorian mores in my Oscar Wilde course.
You must have missed the last class, where Wilde sees homosexualty as the vice from Hell and says
Ah! Happy they whose hearts can break And peace of pardon win! How else may man make straight his plan And cleanse his soul from Sin? How else but through a broken heart May Lord Christ enter in?”
In my circles and my reading it was a disaster.
I believe you. I do not think either than your circles or you readings are representative, however.
Of course you don't, you can't 🙂
The problem with the opinion was that the previous cases talking about a right to marry where discussing something of an entirely different subject.
Many people have married a member of the opposite sex and later (after a divorce or their spouse dying) married a member of the same sex. The usual sorts of marriage things were involved in both cases. The difference is the sex of their partner.
Hopefully we can celebrate the day Obergefell is overturned, democracy is redeemed, and the states can decide the matter of marriage just as they now do abortion.
I don't think allowing states to deny the right of Justice Thomas and Justice Jackson to marry white people is necessary to redeem democracy. The right to marry as a constitutional right was recognized for a long time. The opinion applied it.
"The right to marry as a constitutional right was recognized for a long time. The opinion applied it."
The flaw in that argument is that I can't call this new thing I want to do "marriage" and then apply all of the past decisions regarding marriage to give me a right to do this new thing I want. Two men "marrying" each other was a fundamentally different thing that what those past decisions were talking about. Roberts handles this very well in his dissent.
That's right, a constitutional right for same-sex gay-marriage was never recognized. And still isn't, for most people.
If you assume the premise ("fundamentally different thing") but as I said in the first half (which you conveniently skip over) it isn't true.
You list of "marriage things" did not include having kids.
Same sex and different sex married couples adopt, have kids from previous relationships, use IVF, and so forth. Both also can't have children in various cases, including when elderly people marry.
You now list fundamentally different things.
Obergefell is flawed for a more basic reason.
Why can a court strike down a law that was enacted by elected officials? That's anti-democratic. Answer is, that the People who enacted the laws also enacted a Constitution that puts certain things beyond majority vote. The Constitution is enacted by "We The People." Its provisions are expressions of popular sovereignty. So long as courts are enforcing the popular will as embodied in the Constitution's provisions, their acts are legitimate. The moment they depart from that and impose their own view of what is right and good, they are nothing but dictators in robes. (Or black cocktail dresses, as I personally heard one district judge call them.)
Now granted, some Constitutional provisions are broad and vague, and subject to interpretation. But where it is clear that the contemporaneous understanding of the provision at issue did not include what is being argued about in a given case, then the interpretation is easy.
When the 14th Amendment was passed, sodomy was a crime everywhere in the United States. No one at the time it was enacted ever conceived of the idea that any of its provisions (due process, equal protection) protected sodomy, let alone required state recognition of same-sex marriage. The idea then would have been thought absurd, if not outrageous.
Both Obergefell and Lawrence that proceeded it are nothing more than judicial imposition of what a majority of the Court believed was right and good. "We The People" never enacted such a Constitutional provision, and the imposition of one by SCOTUS is judicial activism.
Sometimes I wonder if you ever went to law school.
For one thing, you skipped over text and went straight to intent.
There are plenty of other elementary jurisprudential flaws, but suffice to say you prove too much. By your logic, Plessy is good law and Loving is not.
It also is framed in absolutist language ("no one"), which is wrong as well. There were free love people at the time, for instance, who would have argued that "sodomy" would be protected.
Likewise, there very well were people who were open to the idea that future societies would understand the specific terms differently than they would. Section Five especially left that open by giving Congress power to enforce based on current understandings.
Name a few of them.
Judges.
Will Baude explains how the common law system was well known and expected to apply to the Constitution in the Founding.
By the time of the 14th Amendment that system had been operable for decades.
Originalism doesn’t show up til the 1980s.
And not just judges.
There was a significant suspicion of the courts after Dred Scott. Many figured Congress would have a significant role in interpreting the Reconstruction Amendments, especially with express enforcement authority.
Some people rejected the idea that "intent or original meaning
controlled the text’s meaning." They were open to giving the text its "broadest and fullest sense."
Broad principles would be applied, and new knowledge would possibly change what that meant. They also cited cases like McCulloch v. Maryland to show the broad power Congress had.
That opinion spoke about how the Constitution set forth terms whose reach would be applied by future Congresses in ways at best dimly understood by the framers of the text.
I quoted Gerard N. Magliocca there, but he's not the only scholar who addresses such things as you note.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5036471
Nice.
In your opinion is it just wide open for 5/9 Justices to declare whatever new right suits their fancy to be protected by the 14A? Are there any guardrails to constrain them from taking anything out of the democratic process? A right to drunk driving or smoking cigarettes, maybe? If 5/9 agree, then okay?
*Please exclude things otherwise explicitly mentioned in the Constitution such as two senators per state. Or, unless you think they could go that far, then include that.
People wearing the cloak of originalism…No one is faster to reply to ‘your argument is wrong’ post with ‘so you must think this other thing I made up! Wow how horrible you are to think that’
In your opinion is it just wide open for 5/9 Justices to declare whatever new right suits their fancy to be protected by the 14A?
I can't speak for Joe, but I agree with him, and would say no, it's not wide open.
Are there any guardrails to constrain them from taking anything out of the democratic process? A right to drunk driving or smoking cigarettes, maybe? If 5/9 agree, then okay?
Drunk driving imperils others. Smoking, in some situations, affects others' health.
More nonsense.
That there were free love people does not mean anyone thought that the 14th Amendment was enacting free love as a Constitutional right. You are confusing people's personal beliefs with what the polity believed was being enacted.
Section Five does not mean that Congress could enforce "based on current understandings." You made that up. It means that Congress can pass enforcement mechanisms for the other sections. That's it.
You originally said that:
"No one at the time it was enacted ever conceived of the idea that any of its provisions (due process, equal protection) protected."
Free love people sometimes spoke in terms of rights, including constitutional rights. They were a small minority. But, they "conceived" of such things. They were part of the "polity" too.
Section Five does not mean that Congress could enforce "based on current understandings." You made that up. It means that Congress can pass enforcement mechanisms for the other sections. That's it.
I didn't make that up either. You don't even refute it. HOW will Congress enforce the other sections? A Congress in 1872 would not understand just what equal protection entails the same as a Congress in 1972. The 20th Century Congress would have more experience and knowledge than the earlier ones did not have.
The usual appeal to "you are making shit up" when what is involved is a difference of opinion mixed with some confusion.
1. The phrase "its provisions (due process, equal protection)" obviously refers to the 14th Amendment. All you have done is assert that there were some "free love" people who (may have) wanted to legalize sodomy. And perhaps they spoke of rights. Neither refute my point: no one thought that the provisions of the 14th Amendment protected sodomy.
Another poster challenged you to name them. I repeat the challenge: show me proof that anyone believed the 14th Amendment would protect sodomy. Until then, its empty speculation at best.
2. Your position re Section 5 was rejected by the Supreme Court in City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U.S. 507 (1997). It clearly stated that the content of the 14th Amendment is not something that changes by Congress.
SCOTUS starts with a determination of what the 14th Amendment protects. Congress' understanding is irrelevant.
Step 2 is whether a law passed by Congress "is a proper exercise of Congress' remedial or preventive power. "
So, not, what a later Congress understands the 14th Amendment to mean is irrelevant. The other sections stand on their own, and then Congress has the power to enforce them under Section 5.
> Neither refute my point: no one thought that the provisions of the 14th Amendment protected sodomy.
did anyone think 14A protected miscegeny?
You commit the sin you attack as is so often the case with your kind.
1) The law created the racial category that put WHITE Plessy intot he category of BLACK !!!
2) Catholic Church long recognized interracial marriages .Loving was an outlier, not following natural law or even common law.
Correct, and everyone understands this.
Those that disagree with your overall stance, don't really disagree with what you're saying here.
They just think it's OK for judges to sometimes do whatever they think is "right and good" and ignore everything else. (Sometimes of course being when they are leftwing judges).
I mean, that's what "living constitutionalism" is. That's why it's a thing. It's why they rail against "originalism."
“Everyone understands this!”
The cry of the zealot.
> I mean, that's what "living constitutionalism" is. That's why it's a thing. It's why they rail against "originalism."
do you think 1A only protects verbal speech and printed newspapers? do you think 2A protects only smoothbore muskets? do you think 4A protects letters but not emails?
> No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
1A didn't define "press" or "speech." 2A didn't define "arms." 14A doesn't enumerate specific privileges and immunities, or define the classes of "person" or the nature of "equal protection." it's very abstract. but you're going to have a useless Constitution if you can't accept that the scope of words will change as society does - all you can do is try to apply the concepts consistently as new media are created, new arms invented and new social groups emerge.
This ‘contemporaneous understanding’ leads to the conclusion that Brown and Loving are bad law.
.. where it is clear that the contemporaneous understanding of the provision at issue did not include what is being argued about in a given case, then the interpretation is easy.
No. First, we don't know what the contemporaneous understanding was. Was their a poll taken? I grant that if you had asked that question in 1868 the results would probably have been as you describe.
But what does it matter? "Nobody would have thought..." is a terrible argument. Public opinion changes. Knowledge grows. It is as open to "creative" decision-making as whatever you imagine to be the worst excesses of living constitutionalism.
There is no reason we should be bound by 1868 public opinion. Nothing in the text demands that.
What it demands is:
....nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
and that's what we have to work with.
The Constitution does not (at least directly) ban "discrimination". It bans the denial of equal protection of the laws. Why are laws which discriminate on the basis of sex constitutionally suspect in the first place? Because they tend to implicate the Equal Protection Clause. For example, the "Since 1976" text links to a case where the age to buy 3.2% beer was 21 for men but 18 for women. If you had two people, one a man and one a woman, they were not being equally protected by the law.
But given the nearly 50/50 split between men and women, both sexes would have the right to marry about half the population. And for both sexes, the half of the population they would be allowed to marry is the half the overwhelming majority of them want to marry; it's not like both men and women ordinarily would prefer to marry women, or vice versa. Therefore, the sexes would be equally protected even if we were to ban gay marriage.
"If you had two people, one a man and one a woman, they were not being equally protected by the law."
If you have two people, one a man and one a woman, and one could vote but the other couldn't, then why was that okay under the 14A for many decades and okay with everyone surrounding the ratification of that amendment?
It took ANOTHER amendment to finally change that.
It took another amendment to give all the *races* the right to vote, even though giving races equal rights was *explicitly* why the 14th was passed.
And even the text of 14th itself treated males differently when it came to voting rights.
"It took another amendment to give all the *races* the right to vote, even though giving races equal rights was *explicitly* why the 14th was passed."
That's because voting wasn't seen as really being a right, it was a privilege states could hand out as they pleased, and a jealously guarded power of the states, too. Remember, voting had been conditioned on all sorts of things "rights" were not ordinarily conditioned on, like property ownership.
So the 14th simply penalized states that discriminated racially by reducing their representation proportionately. Only so many states were willing to pay that price that they came back and just actually outright prohibited that particular form of discrimination with the 15th.
The Equal Protection clause protects individuals, not groups. It's no answer to "I was denied equal protection" [or "I was discriminated against"] to say, "Well, most men/blacks/Jews were not."
I mean... I don't disagree with "The Equal Protection clause protects individuals, not groups", but I don't think that from there you can say "therefore, the law has to allow me to marry the particular person I want to marry". You cannot marry a close relative even though almost everyone else on the planet can.
This logic was rejected in Loving v Virginia. If White people could marry any White person and Black people could marry any Black person then bans on mix-race marriages weren't really discrimination because could both marry and were equally protected. Except, the woman in Loving v Virginia was the "wrong race" to marry the person of her dreams and was denied because of her race. Just as former bans on same-sex marriage denied some men the right to marry the person of their dreams because they were the wrong sex.
That was different. Races were not split 50/50; a quick search says the US was 85% white. So a black person had a significantly smaller pool than a white person. Also, the justification for those laws was pretty much white supremacy. The justification for banning gay marriage, on the other hand, is *not* supremacy of one sex.
The justification for banning gay marriage, on the other hand, is *not* supremacy of one sex.
No. But it is based on the supremacy of heterosexuals.
Depending on which source you use, sexual orientation is split roughly 90% heterosexual and 10% bi/homosexual. Your logic would support same-sex marriage.
You emphasize "*not*" but I think you need to provide evidence instead of assuming it. Social pressure against homosexuals in the past often fell upon gay men more than lesbians. This may be because into the early 20th century, women were chattel and they're still struggling with the after effects of that. The most common insults thrown at homosexuals are based on sex roles like "sissy" for men and "butch" for women. A common joke among homophobes and people generally ignorant of homosexuality is to ask which member of a couple is the "husband" and "wife." Even for those in the group who get into the "ick" factor, they tend to denigrate men for being penetrated in a way they don't denigrate women for. I don't think it's factual to assume sex isn't the key issue here.
I don't see how. If same-sex marriage is banned, the pool of people a heterosexual can legally marry is equal to the pool of people a homosexual can legally marry or a bisexual can legally marry.
Err... so... your argument is that preventing men from marrying each other *is* promoting the supremacy of men? I'm not buying that.
> Therefore, the sexes would be equally protected even if we were to ban gay marriage.
but gay people wouldn't be equally protected as straight people are. and sex isn't enumerated in the Equal Protection clause. so where are you getting your protected classes from? original intent? Congress didn't specifically *intend* 14A to give women equal rights to men, or suffrage wouldn't have been such a struggle - all Congress intended was to guarantee equal protection in the abstract, and left it to the Courts to figure it out. the Civil Rights Act? not a constitutional amendment, so no bearing on future laws. so again, which classes are "equally protected?" and why?
> The Constitution does not (at least directly) ban "discrimination". It bans the denial of equal protection of the laws.
I see you're a fan of Plessy v Ferguson.
Mostly from immutable characteristics. I would not ordinarily make a 14th Amendment protected class based on behavior or self-identification or desire to do a thing. If I call myself a "night owl" and I want to stay up late and I do stay up late, that doesn't mean I'm discriminated against because the post office closes at 5 or a city decides to impose a curfew.
Race, color, national origin, and sex are pretty much immutable. Religion is not, but that's explicitly protected by the Constitution, so that also gets to be a protected class even though practicing religion is a behavior. If the government started discriminating against anyone born on Friday the 13th, that's also immutable. (And now I'm suddenly wondering about whether the draft lottery was unconstitutional for equal protection reasons, in that people with an immutable characteristic - their birthday - were forcibly drafted because of that characteristic.)
Brown v. Board, widely considered the de facto overturning of that case, said: "To separate them from others of similar age and qualifications solely because of their race generates a feeling of inferiority as to their status in the community that may affect their hearts and minds in a way unlikely ever to be undone." That's a consideration which does not apply to the sexes when it comes to gay marriage.
So confused.
The Constituiton implements the natural law of the Declaration. "endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights"
All rights are human rights, never more. there is no gay right, not even historically
There is no 50/50 because female gendercide has radically altered that in many parts of the world
https://invisiblegirlproject.org/
Two questions begged here:
1. Does the Constitution actually do that? Most judicial conservatives like Bork, Scalia, etc. don't think so.
2. Is the "natural law" of the DOI the same as what the Church endorses? Aristotle -> Aquinas didn't speak in the language of "unalienable natural rights" to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
It's never *exactly* 50/50 but it's close enough to not constitute an equal protection violation. The 2020 census showed 49.1% male and 50.9% female in the US, which seems the most relevant area if we're talking about the US Constitution.
It was less than 10 years after Obgerfell that the gays started teaching other peoples children how to suck dick and take it in the ass in elementary school.
We should have a Scotus decision on that tomorrow.
Khalil Gibran wrote “Our work is our love made manifest.” Every year, many thousands of people, facing a conflict between their spouses and their jobs, divorce their spouses and keep their jobs.
There are quite a few studies showing that many students do better in single-sex environments. While the current political environment would probably get any professor attempting a study tending to workplace same-sex preference in a sympathetic light fired, I think it entirely plausible that many people feel more comfortable and some are only able to be productive in a single-sex environment.
Jane Roe asks John Doe for a date. John Doe says he only dates men. Jane Roe freaks out and believes she has been prrsonally affronted.
Mary Doe asks Richard Roe for a job. Richard Roe says he only works with men Mary Doe freaks out and feels personally affronted.
A legislature is permitted to take sides and call one party the oppressed and the other the oppressor in both cases. But I think the Equal Protection Clause prohibits a court from taking sides. I don’t think the constitution tells us who the oppressed and who the oppressor really is. And just because judges feel strongly doesn’t mean they really know either. Professor Somin is positively certain he knows who is the real oppressed and who the real oppressor. But John Calhoun, among others, was equally certain.
In classical Athens, women were relegated to bearing children and being pleasure objects. Sex for companionship, the kind of love described in Plato’s Symposium, was permitted only between men. If the Constitution permits society to break a male monopoly on economic privelege by requiring heterosexual work environments, I don’t see why it can’t break a male monopoly on sexual privelege by requiring heterosexual domestic environments. If government can rationally continue prohibitions as a prophylactic to prevent the return of one kind of society even though it is no longer present, it can just as rationally continue prohibitions to prevent the return of the other kind even though it too is no longer present.
Yes, there are people who really can only be effective in a same-sex domestic environments. But there are also people who can only be effective in a same-sex vocational environment. In both cases, the people who actually need a same-sex environment are a small minority while the vast majority of people go along for social expectations and status. But in a society where a sngle-sex monopoly has come to dominate and drive the other sex into an inferior position, how can you tell who really needs it and who is doing it just because it’s cool?
This is one of many situation where if only a few people do it, it’s no problem. If only Richard Roe turns Mary Doe down, she need hardly notice. She can just go to the next person and ask.. But if everybody does it, it’s a huge problem. Mary Doe can’t get a job. Exactly the same is true for Jane Roe trying to get a date.
Even when not everyone is doing it now, if there was a time in the past when everyone really was doing it, society can rationally structure its laws as a prophylactic to prevent a situation where everyone does it from arising again.
As I see it, the Constitution permits legislatures to impose their views of absolute morality, yet courts must maintain a certain moral relativism. As I see it, while the constitution permits legislatures to decide that society is better off if people who prefer to work with others of the same sex, even people who need to work with others of the same sex to be effective in life, are REGARDED AS oppressors, judges are not permitted to refer to “truths beyond the constitution’s text” to declare that such people ARE oppressors as a matter either of absolute moral truth or of constitutional law.
The same is the case with people who prefer to sleep with others of the same sex, including people who need to do so to be effective. Legislatures can similarly decide that society is better off regarding them as oppressors; they can also decide that society is better off regarding them as oppressed. But so far as the constitution is concerned, there is no absolute morality, and either approach is permissable. As I see it, judges are not permitted to refer to “truths beyond the constitution’s text” or to their own personal conceptions of absolute morality to tilt the scales in either direction.