The Volokh Conspiracy
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Should the Seventh Amendment Civil Jury Trial Right Apply to the States?
The right to a civil jury trial is far more deeply rooted in American history and tradition than is the right to own guns, which the Supreme Court was right to incorporate.
This coming Thursday, June 12th, the Court will decide whether to grant certiorari (or whether to request a response) to the Institute for Justice's petition for certiorari in Thomas v. County of Humboldt, a case which asks the Court to incorporate the Seventh Amendment civil jury trial right through the Fourteenth Amendment against the States.
The Bill of Rights was originally enacted in 1791 to constrain Congress; protections against state overreach were left to state constitutions. But the Fourteenth Amendment was created to provide federal protection against state power; and since the Civil War, the Court has held (through a process called "incorporation") that nearly all the Bill of Rights applies to the states via the Fourteenth Amendment.
The right to civil jury trial was among the three civil rights most deeply rooted in American history and tradition at the time of the framing of the federal Bill of Rights along with the right to criminal jury trial and the right to the free exercise of religion. The right is by far and away the most important right in the Bill of Rights that has not yet been incorporated; the other two unincorporated rights are the Third Amendment's protection against the quartering of soldiers in peoples' homes (a practice that no longer happens) and the right to indictment by a grand jury (which is meaningless since prosecutors can persuade grand juries to indict even "a ham sandwich").
Cases like Thomas v. County of Humboldt, which involve a dispute between the government and a private citizen, where petitioners are challenging millions of dollars of fines assessed against impoverished litigants in administrative proceedings by the government with no right to a civil jury trial, show that incorporation of the Seventh Amendment is as urgent as was incorporation of the Excessive Fines Clause in Timbs v. Indiana, 586 U.S. 146 (2019). As the Supreme Court held last year in SEC v. Jarkesy, 603 U.S. 109 (2024) (requiring the SEC to litigate fraud cases in federal district court with a Seventh Amendment right to a civil jury trial), "[t]he right to trial by jury is 'of such importance and occupies so firm a place in our history and jurisprudence that any seeming curtailment of the right' has always been and 'should be scrutinized with the utmost care.'" Id. at 121. A continuing failure by the Supreme Court to incorporate the civil jury trial right against the States would thus be an embarrassing omission from the Court's caselaw given that this right is even more deeply rooted in American history and tradition than are almost any other right including especially the right to own a gun for one's own self-defense.
The Thomas case seeks to change that, and I think the Court should agree on this with the petitioners.
In 2010, the Supreme Court correctly incorporated the Second Amendment's right to own a gun for one's own self-defense in McDonald v. City of Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010) on a five to four vote. The Court held correctly that the right to own a gun for one's self-defense was a right that was deeply rooted in American history and tradition following Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U.S. 702 (1997). Accord, Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, 597 U.S. 215 (2022) (abortion rights are not deeply rooted in history and tradition).
In McDonald, the Court observed that 22 States out of 37 States in 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified, protected the right to keep and bear arms in their State Bills of Rights, i.e. 59% of the States at that time. Steven G. Calabresi & Sarah E. Agudo, Individual Rights Under State Constitutions When the Fourteenth Amendment Was Ratified in 1868: What Rights are Deeply Rooted in American History and Tradition? 87 Texas L. Rev. 7, 50-55 (2008). Sixty-one percent of the American people lived in those States in 1868—a sizable super-majority. Id. at 50. Based on this, and other evidence, the Court rightly concluded that the right to own a gun for one's own self-defense was very deeply rooted in American history and tradition. The Court reached this correct outcome even though in 1791, when the federal Bill of Rights was ratified, only 5 States out of 12 that had written constitutions and Bills of Rights protected gun rights. Steven G. Calabresi, Sarah E. Agudo, and Kathryn L. Dore, State Bills of Rights in 1787 and 1791: What Individual Rights are Really Deeply Rooted in American History and Tradition?, 85 Southern California Law Review 1451, 1485-1487 (2012).
But when it comes to the Seventh Amendment, 36 out of 37 State Constitutions in 1868, guaranteed the right to jury trials in all civil or common law cases. Calabresi & Agudo, supra at 77-78. "Fully 98% of all Americans in 1868 lived in jurisdictions where they had a fundamental state constitutional law right to jury trial in all civil or common law cases." Id. at 77. The lone State in the Union not to recognize a right to civil jury trial in 1868 was Louisiana, which because of its French and Spanish roots in the civil law tradition found there to be no right to civil jury trial; in this, Louisiana diverged from all other states' common law tradition, which recognizes such a right. The case for the incorporation of the Seventh Amendment is much stronger than was the case for the incorporation of the Second Amendment (which, again, I think the Court was right to incorporate).
In 1791, when the federal Bill of Rights was ratified, 12 of the 14 States (the original 13 plus Vermont, which had just joined the Union) had new constitutions and Bills of Rights, while Rhode Island and Connecticut retained their colonial charters with all references to the King of Great Britain struck out. All 12 of these States protected the right to civil jury trial in their new State constitutions and Bills of Rights. Calabresi, Agudo & Dore, supra at 1511. More than 85% of the American people lived in states with such constitutional protection of the right to civil jury trial. Id. In addition, Connecticut and Rhode Island also protected the right to civil jury trial even in the absence of newly crafted state constitutions. See Charles W. Wolfram, The Constitutional History of the Seventh Amendment, 57 Minn. L. Rev. 639, 655 (1973). "In all of the thirteen original states formed after the outbreak of hostilities with England, the institution of civil jury trial was continued, either by express provision in a state constitution, by statute, or by continuation of the practices that had applied prior to the break with England." Id.
Today, forty-nine States representing 98% of the States and 98.5% of the U.S. population guarantee the right to jury trials in civil cases within their state constitutions, and Louisiana is the only outlier. Steven Gow Calabresi et al., Individual Rights Under State Constitutions in 2018: What Rights Are Deeply Rooted in a Modern-Day Consensus of the States?, 94 Notre Dame L. Rev. 49, 113 (2018). But as the Thomas petition for certiorari shows States are ignoring their State Constitutions (or at least reading them unduly narrowly), including in imposing outrageous multi-million-dollar fines in administrative proceedings against impoverished defendants.
The last time the Supreme Court considered in any detail whether to incorporate the Seventh Amendment was in 1916, 109 years ago, in Minneapolis & St. Louis R. Co. v. Bombolis, 241 U.S. 211 (1916). To say the least, the Supreme Court's incorporation caselaw has shifted mightily since then, but the Court has never gone back and overruled Bombolis as it should do now. The Thomas case presently before the Court shows why it is urgent to take that step right away.
The civil jury has a long and distinguished history in Anglo-American law. The great English Law commentator, William Blackstone, who was widely read by the framers of the Bill of Rights, wrote that jury trial was used "for time out of mind" in England, see William Blackstone, Commentaries 349; whether or not he was correct as a matter of history, his views were the basis for founding-era attitudes, see Wolfram, supra at 653 n.44 (1973) ("The framers all seem to have agreed that trial by jury could be traced back in an unbroken line to … Magna Charta"). The Declaration of Independence complained in 1776 of "pretended Legislation … depriving us in many cases of the benefit of Trial by Jury."
The Continental Congress in the Ordinance for the Northwest Territory ensured that the "inhabitants of the said territory shall always be entitled to the benefits of … the trial by jury." An Ordinance for the Government of the Territory of the United States, Northwest of the River Ohio art. II (1787). And, importantly, the Judiciary Act of 1789 provided for jury trials in "all suits at common law in which the United States sue," even before the ratification of the Seventh Amendment in 1791. An Act to Establish the Judicial Courts of the United States Section 9, 1 Stat. 73,77 (1789).
The absence of a civil-jury guarantee in the Constitution was among the Antifederalists' chief objections to the Constitution of 1787, and the Framers responded to this objection by putting the Seventh Amendment in the federal Bill of Rights. Several relevant themes emerge from their remarks from that era. For one, they concurred with Blackstone that the right was a critical check on abuses of power by tribunals of all stripes. A pseudonymous Farmer warned that juries were integral to curbing the power of corrupt judges, "who may easily disguise law, by suppressing and varying fact," and stopping a backslide into "despotism." Essays by a Farmer, Md. Gazette (March 21, 1788) in 5 The Complete Anti-Federalist 36, 37-40 (Storing Ed. 1981).
In addition, the Antifederalists understood that the civil-jury guarantee was an especially vital shield for liberty in a particular context: suits between private citizens and the government as in Thomas v. County of Humboldt. The pseudonymous Democratic Federalist warned in 1787 of possible abuses by military officers, excise or revenue officers, or constables:
[I]n such cases a trial by jury would be our safest resource, heavy damages would at once punish the offender, and deter others from committing the same: but what satisfaction can we expect from a lordly court of justice, always ready to protect the officers of government against the weak and helpless citizen …? What refuge shall we then have to shelter us from the iron hand of arbitrary power?
See Letter from a Democratic Federalist (Oct. 17, 1787), in The Founders' Constitution 354 (P. Kurland & Ralph Lerner eds. 1987). The reference to "excise or revenue officers" makes clear that civil suits between citizens and either the federal or state governments like the one in this very case under discussion were especially worrisome.
Likewise, James Monroe at the Virginia ratifying convention worried about the possible loss of the jury trial in tax disputes with the federal government. See 3 The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution 218 (Jonathan Elliot ed. 1891). Monroe's concern about such suits is just as relevant in tax disputes between a private citizen, or a victim of police brutality, and a State revenue officer or a State police department.
The Antifederalists understood that the guarantee to a civil jury trial was, at its core, a republican ideal. The jury was to a judicial branch of government what the lower Houses of the federal or state legislatures were to the legislative branch:
The trial by jury is very important in another point of view. It is essential in every free country, that common people should have a part and share influence, in the judicial as well as in the legislative department. To hold open to them the offices of senators, judges, and offices to fill [for] which an expensive education is required, cannot answer any valuable purposes for them; they are not in a situation to be brought forward and fill those offices …. The few, the well-born, etc. as Mr. Adams calls them, in judicial decisions as well as in legislation, are generally disposed and very naturally too, to favour those of their own description.
The trial by jury in the judicial department, and the collection of the people by their representatives in the legislature, are those fortunate inventions which have procured for them, in this country, their true proportion of influence, and the wisest and most fit means of protecting themselves in the community.
Letter from the Federal Farmer, No. 4 (Oct. 12, 1787), in 2 The Complete Anti-Federalist 249-50 (Storing Ed. 1981).
The first ever dictionary of the English language, as it was spoken in the United States, was Noah Webster's, American Dictionary of the English Language (1828). Webster defines the word "jury" as follows (emphasis added): "JU'RY, noun [Latin juro, to swear.] A number of freeholders, selected in the manner prescribed by law, empaneled and sworn to inquire into and try any matter of fact, and to declare the truth on the evidence given them in the case. Grand juries consist usually of twenty four freeholders at least, and are summoned to try matters alleged in indictments. Petty juries, consisting usually of twelve men, attend courts to try matters of fact in civil causes, and to decide both the law and the fact in criminal prosecutions. The decision of a petty jury is called a verdict." It is clear that Webster in 1828, thought there was a nearly **just to acknowledge the Louisiana exception** universal right to civil jury trial in all federal and state civil cases in the U.S., which there was.
During the years leading up to the Civil War, abolitionists complained bitterly about the lack of federal or state jury trials in cases determining whether an alleged northerner, who happened to be Black, was, or was not, a fugitive slave. Akhil Reed Amar, The Bill of Rights: Creation and Reconstruction 269-270 (1998). For a full and persuasive argument that the Fourteenth Amendment demands what Amar calls the refined incorporation of the Seventh Amendment, one need only consult pages 269 to 278 of Amar's timeless and excellent book. The right to a civil jury trial was as foundational to the Framers of the Fourteenth Amendment as it was to the Framers of the Bill of Rights. This is hardly surprising given that, as noted above, 36 out of 37 States constitutionally guaranteed a right to civil jury trial in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified.
My good and highly esteemed friend, Sam Bray, has urged on another blog against the incorporation of the Seventh Amendment for what are, in my view, essentially policy reasons. Even if I agreed with Sam as a matter of policy—and I do not, because of the ruinous effects of State use of administrative proceedings in multi-million dollar cases involving poor and abused litigants like those in Thomas—I think that the law here is quite clearly in favor of the incorporation of the Seventh Amendment, as is argued in Amar's spectacular book cited above.
Sam's biggest concern is with what he fears would be the devastating effect that incorporating the law on civil jury trial, as it stood in 1791, would have on Delaware's Court of Chancery where most of the nation's corporations are chartered and where much corporate litigation takes place.
Professor Amar, and I, however, do not think that Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the law as to rights in the federal Bill of Rights as that law stood in 1791. Instead, we favor what Amar calls refined incorporation, which would among other things ask what the law was on civil jury trial rights, or on the division between law and equity, in 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified, not what it was in 1791 when the Seventh Amendment was ratified. Thomas is a Fourteenth Amendment case, unlike SEC v. Jarkesy, which was a Seventh Amendment case.
Accordingly, the relevant original meaning in Thomas is the original meaning of the civil jury trial right in 1868, not in 1791 as it was in Jarkesy. I know that the U.S. Supreme Court has failed to accept this principle in its incorporation caselaw, but all true originalists must concede its truth. I have no idea how many of Sam's policy concerns are alleviated by shifting the time of origin from 1791 to 1868, but I do think that is the only lawful thing for an originalist to do.
Another good friend, and esteemed former co-author, Will Baude, has a blog post up in response to Sam's. Will argues, and I agree with him, that:
[T]echnically speaking it's not that the Fourteenth Amendment mechanically incorporates the enumerated rights in Amendments 1-8, it's that both the Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment's Privileges or Immunities Clause aimed to protect a range of fundamental rights.
I think the civil jury probably was such a right. But once we see the issue through the general law lens, it's easier to remember that incorporating the fundamental right still left it open to reasonable regulations within each state. So protecting the fundamental right to a civil jury shouldn't mean, as Sam fears, locking every state "into the English division between law and equity in 1791" or detonating "a neutron bomb on the Delaware Court of Chancery."
I agree that general law "incorporated" Fourteenth Amendment rights, drawn from the first eight amendments to the federal Constitution, which are constitutionally protected vis-à-vis the States according to what they meant in 1868. I also agree with Will that such rights can be regulated under the State police power given the statement in Corfield v. Coryell, 6 Fed. Cas. 546 (C.C.E.D.Pa. 1823) that all federal privileges or immunities are "subject nevertheless to such restraints as the government may justly prescribe for the general good of the whole." Reasonableness review under this language might leave some variation in how Delaware draws the law/equity line from how it might be drawn in other States. Mechanical incorporation of the Bill of Rights against the States with every right given only the meaning it had in 1791 and not in 1868 would be unwise, especially given that it's the likely outcome of the Court's agreeing to incorporate the Seventh Amendment. But that is not the sort of incorporation I mean to defend here.
Finally, the Institute for Justice has also responded to Sam Bray, and I agree with pretty much all of that response. But IJ does not comment on Will Baude's post, and that post I think contemplates a more originalist, more meaningful, and more flexible form of incorporation than is contemplated in IJ's petition for certiorari in Thomas. In any event, the Roberts' Court can certainly come up with a better reading of the relationship between the Seventh and the Fourteenth Amendments than did the White Court in Minneapolis & St. Louis R. Co. v. Bombolis (1916), which is an excellent reason to grant certiorari on Thursday, June 12th.
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I don't think we have to belittle the value of the Grand Jury Clause to support this cause. The people's involvement in grand juries has some significance.
The "ham sandwich" bit is somewhat hyperbolic. As to limits, what are the real limits to the Cruel and Unusual Punishment Clause these days, especially in non-capital cases not involving prison conditions?
The Third Amendment also continues to have value, including for reaffirming two values (privacy and the importance of the civil over the military power). Also, at least as recently as WWII, probably sooner, the 3A did have some significance.
The "no outliers rule" (see also, unanimous juries) alone suggests a reason to incorporate. The problem that comes to mind is that once you do, you will have to determine the details. The fact that each state has a civil jury system only takes us so far.
The other jury issue ripe for incorporation would be 12-person juries.
While there are certainly arguments to be made about the value of 12 person juries, I don't think it's an incorporation issue. The number of jurors is not specified anywhere in the Constitution, so what Constitutional text is to be "incorporated" against the States?
The Constitution also doesn't specify that jurors be adults, aware of their surroundings, awake, or even not in a coma.
12 is rooted in common law, right?
And those are also issues that, while important, are not incorporation issues.
Since it appears we might be talking past each other, let me try to expand on the distinction as I see it:
Incorporation: does the 7th amendment guarantee a "jury trial" against states? Basically, what Prof Calebresi's OP is about.
Not incorporation: once we get over the "jury required by Constitutional amendment" question ... what does a jury have to look like? Human, over 18, not in a coma are some quite valid criteria.
What does a press look like? What is a religion? What are grievances? What are "effects" in the 4th Amendment? What is an infamous crime?
And so forth.
What are you even asking at this point? I mean, you keep naming topics - important topics! - that are "constitutional" issues but not "incorporation" issues.
I'll try from a different angle. Whether the 4th Amd constrains the States is "incorporation". Is the 4th Amd incorporated against the states, or not? Binary yes/no answer.
Once you answer "yes", the incorporation part is done. The fact that there are still lots of 4th Amd constitutional questions that need resolution doesn't somehow make them "incorporation" questions.
Are you genuinely confused about basic word meanings here, or just being a contrarian troll?
You're the one claiming the jury can't be incorporated because the Constitution doesn't define the size of juries.
I pointed other quibbles which aren't defined in the Constitution.
If that baffles you, I cannot help you.
Ah, so the disconnect here stems from your poor reading comprehension.
All I'm saying that whether or not the 7th Amd can be incorporated (and FFS, read my lips, I take absosmurfly no position on that!) is a different question that "what is the proper size for a jury".
Not every constitutional issue is an incorporation issue. That shouldn't be hard to understand.
I'm not the one who said jury size is an incorporation issue because the Constitution doesn't define it.
You really do have a reading comprehension problem.
But I'm glad you finally agreed.
What is an infamous crime?
Killing an emperor?
12 is rooted in the common law but there's no magical thinking behind it, it just seems like a nice number. What's more important than the exact number of jurors is that the verdict is unanimous. That said, something like 3 jurors probably isn't enough.
Eugene Volokh discussed the unanimity issue and noted:
“The Jury Trial Clause is thus the one Bill of Rights clause that is neither completely incorporated against the states via the Fourteenth Amendment, nor completely not incorporated.”
He also noted McDonald calls an Apodaca-like approach “watered-down” incorporation.
https://reason.com/volokh/2019/03/18/does-the-constitution-require-unanimous/
Thanks for that link, interesting. Per the ongoing semantic disconnect above with StupidGT, I think this passage from EV nicely illustrates my point:
(emphasis added.) So it was 8-1 on the “Is it incorporated?” question. I have no issues with that.
That there was a split on how the 8-1 “incorporated” amendment – in the sense that it applies the same way to Feds and States – should be construed.
Illustrating that “is it incorporated?” and “now that it’s incorporated, what does the incorporated text mean?” are conceptually separate. Again, not rocket surgery, despite StupidGT's heroic attempts to be obstinate.
Yup, I remain obstinate. You claimed something, I pointed out its absurdity, and now you claim ... I dunno, something.
Read Marc W. Kruman, Between Authority and Liberty: State Constitution Making in Revolutionary America (1997)
All this comes from the state side...incl the very drafters who worked on the Federal Constitution.
I take issue with giving the Federal Constitution precedence and using its rulings as a guide when the 18-20 State Constitutions preceded it and defined it in many cases.
"reaffirming two values (privacy and the importance of the civil over the military power)"
Guess I'm not alone in seeing 3A as a check on government snooping on citizens.
Olbig TheOnion:
https://theonion.com/third-amendment-rights-group-celebrates-another-success-1819569379/
Assuming it is incorporated, how should the $20 rule work? The 7th Amendment only mandates the right to a jury if the value in controversy is over $20. That amount has been frozen but with inflation it is around $500 today. Should states be bound by the textual $20 limit or should they be able to set a higher threshold equivalent to what $20 would be worth today? Could this effect small claims courts and the like?
That’s one of my favorites. IANAL, so I feel free to make jokes about it.
It doesn’t apply to criminal trials.
It doesn’t apply to parking tickets, speeding tickets, or other such things, because they are infractions, neither criminal nor civil; they are not “suits at common law” (hey, Zarniwoop, something else that isn’t defined in the Constitution).
It doesn’t apply to small claims court because it hasn’t been incorporated against the states.
It doesn’t apply to federal small claims courts because there are none.
Wikipedia has something to say on the matter.
In other words, no one knows anything about it, so they just ignore it. Good little lawyers, wouldn't want to upset judges or legislators.
That's where textualists get aggressive.
It is clearly stupid to empanel a jury for a $20 issue today. It is stupid to take a $20 issue to trial. You probably shouldn't even mention it because it means so little today.
But the 7A says that you have a right to a jury trial for matters of $20. That doesn't evolve with the times. It is there in the text. We can fully amend the Constitution if that amount is too low (and it is).
What you can't do is pretend that the words don't exist.
I always figured it would be a slam dunk amendment ... except doing so acknowledges its existence, and that it has been ignored for 200+ years. If you're going to sweep dirt under a rug, best to not go back later to sweep it out and admit you knew it was there.
You could always recognize that the Spanish "dollar" (AKA "piece of eight") at the time was a particular size of silver coin, which we adopted as the basis of our currency because it was already in wide circulation. "Dollar" wasn't just a random word they made up, it actually already had an established meaning.
So 20 "dollars" is whatever the current value of 7,425 grains of pure silver is. About $624 in our debased currency, I believe.
See, that's how you actually do originalism.
How you don't do originalism is by taking a number you find in the Constitution, and just casually throwing it away.
How you don't do Constitutions is by embedding such arbitrary figures in them.
Maybe the ones who didn't say a jury was 12 people were on to something.
It's not the constitution I would have written, either. But it's the constitution that DID get written, it DOES have that arbitrary number in it, and you don't honor an oath to uphold and defend it by ignoring that arbitrary number.
And it may be arbitrary in the sense that it could have been 19 or 21 "dollars", but we damned well know what a "dollar" was at the time, so we know to some precision what "20 dollars" actually means.
Law school type question but happened in a case I had. Suppose my state amended its larceny law in 1994 to make larceny over $1,000 a felony. If in 2025, I have a client who stole $1,300, could I argue that the term "dollars" in 1994 had a higher value than they do now because of inflation and that $1,000 in 1994 would be about $2,100 in today's money.
Therefore my client is only guilty of a misdemeanor? What say you?
It's not the inflation per se. It's the difference between precious metal currency and fiat currency.
No, first you must establish the right of the feds to step in on the states. You will use 14th Amendment but many judges would stop you there.
https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2017/07/abuse-fourteenth-amendment-timeless-allen-porter-mendenhall.html
” the Constitution, which was meant to restrict only the powers of the federal government, not state and local government, has become a mechanism for the federal government, through the judiciary, to restrict the powers of the states.”
no states after ratification attempted to alter their local laws to conform to the Bill of Rights.
I don't think an inflationary principle works for the $20 requirement any more than we can adjust the age requirements for Congress or president just because people live longer today. It's a hard number that they put in the Constitution, so it stays until amended or revoked. And it's not like the Founders didn't understand inflation, so they could have easily inserted something like "adjusted for a change in value."
But why do that when other parts of government never do that.
There is always an adjustment for change in value in any econmic calculation. $20 didn't have the same value across the country at the time of the Founding !! Much of it would have been in worthless state notes !!
But longevity was never considered at any time. That is a bogus analogy. Sometimes it is like Thomas G West says quoting a Founding Father mocking this line of reasoning
"Maybe we should put in a right to eat whatever you want for breakfast"
Several state supreme courts have interpreted their own state constitutions with similar provisions as allowing juryless small claims proceedings, despite the claims exceeding forty schillings or whatever it may be. Not the most textual approach, but a strictly textualist interpretation of the Twenty Dollars Clause would only serve slavish literalism.
Interesting. Suppose a presidential candidate was 34 years old but considered very mature for his age. Would you believe that disqualifying him would be "slavish literalism"?
It seems to me that as part of the Constitution, the Twenty Dollars Clause should be applied as written until amended. To go any other route is simply allowing a judge to ignore a clear and direct right because he thinks it foolish. Could he do that with the 1A?
The significance of $20 has changed enormously since 1791. The maturity that comes with aging hasn't. And 35 has been the set age for presidency since the founding. The Twenty Dollars Clause has been obsolete for basically all its history because Congress set amount-in-controversy limits for federal court shortly after that. So I don't think its a good analogy.
Also, "dollars" refers to the Spanish silver dollar, not the modern federal reserve note. So a strictly textual interpretation under an original public meaning analysis might not work because we don't even use that currency anymore.
It could be that the clause was simply intended to carve out an exception for small claims cases as they were understood at common law, which can change over time. There is a sense-reference distinction in originalism, meaning the sense of a constitutional provision is fixed at the time of the framing, but the reference is not, because it depends on facts about the world, which can change. For example, most originalists do not limit "cruel and unusual punishment" to whatever that meant in 1791. An "unreasonable search" can now include things like GPS tracking and cell phone data. And so on. So I think there's a bit more to an originalist analysis of the clause than "$20 is $20."
Well, the amount in controversy only applies to diversity jurisdiction. If I have a federal cause of action, I can file any amount in federal court.
But, the 7A is limited to suits at common law. Trying to be creative, imagine if we were in a National Park and I accidentally bumped you causing you to drop your $34.99 bottle of liquor and shatter it.
Could one of us demand a jury trial? Has it been tested? With respect to you and Brett, I cannot see a court ruling that we are talking about Spanish dollars. That is "slavish literalism" in my opinion.
I doubt you'd have a federal cause of action for what sounds like a state common law negligence claim. A better example might be if a civil rights plaintiff or a federal plaintiff with a supplemental state claim seeks nominal damages of slightly more than $20. I'm aware of at least one case that says they're entitled to a jury trial. But I don't think there's any authoritative precedent on that question.
IN a country with 350 million people it wouldn't be slavish literalism it would just be stupid. You mean in the whole country there is no one but this 34-year-old !!!!
And the comparison with 1A is even more foolish. No thinking adult (but you) would put those on a par.
The law principle is this
epikeia (ἐπιείκεια) refers to the principle of interpreting laws or rules with a focus on their underlying spirit and intended purpose, rather than adhering strictly to their literal meaning.
He's a really sharp young guy. Has a 70% approval rating.
Are you saying that the country has to be out of his services because of a slavish devotion to a 200+ year old provision? Since we already have precedent on cheating on the $20 clause, why not this one?
Or should we just follow the plain text? This sounds like an extreme version of living constitutionalism. It doesn't even mean what it clearly says.
Correlation or causation?
"We've got this law which has never been enforced. Useless! Get rid of it!"
WE still have the Prohibition Amendment listed in all official listings. You miss the point of a Constitution, it's to show the unchangeableness of "unalienable rights" against the history of implementation
Woof if this is incorporated there is going to be A LOT of federal litigation about state constitutional structure and state administrative agencies and state courts. Not just Delaware Chancery.
what does a jury of peers look like for a corporate person? will Exxon-Mobil and Haliburton serve jury duty when BP is prosecuted?
Unsure why a conservative law professor wants to attack states this way, using the non-conservative doctrine of incorporation, which has no textual basis.
Probably because no serious lawyer, judge, legal scholar, or historian, conservative or otherwise has seriously contested incorporation as a concept in 80+ years? Being against incorporation today is a crank position that most cranks don’t even accept.
Also, is incorporation truly a "non-conservative doctrine" that has no textual basis? Originalist arguments (to the degree that is conservative), at least, have been made arguing otherwise.
Non-originalist arguments also were made that it is textually based. The 14A says states have to do "x" and the Bill of Rights as a whole would be a logical place to determine, at a minimum, what that entails.
Much like the debate over the proper year to anchor analysis, whether this is a “conservative” view might depend on when we’re talking about. It might have been a “conservative” view in 1876. But now the kindest thing you can say is it’s a crank view.
Incorporation via 'substantive due process' has no textual basis. Incorporation via the Privileges and Immunities clause is very firmly grounded in Congressional debate.
But the Court doesn't want to have to overturn Slaugherhouse, in which case the Court had deliberately gutted the P&I clause.
Even Clarence Thomas doesn't challenge the concept of incorporation; he just challenges the mechanism.
“What great big casuistry you have, David ” said Little Red Riding Hood
THe mechanism controls entirely the concept
" no states after ratification attempted to alter their local laws to conform to the Bill of Rights. Moreover, after ratification, Congress approved some state constitutions in the former Confederate states even though they did not completely comport with the Bill of Rights. If the Fourteenth Amendment had been intended to incorporate the Bill of Rights to restrict the power of the states, would not Congress have invalidated these state constitutions in the reconstructed states?"
So states should be able to ban all guns? Doesn't seem very conservative to me
Has nothing to do with that.
That would be like the overrule of DOMA to make states accept homosexual "marriage' in other states.
The right to bear guns is a poor example anyway as the Federal statute is less severe than that of many state Constitutions
The Pennsylvania Constitution, Article I, Section 26, explicitly states "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned".
That's fine but if the 2A isn't incorporated then Pennsylvania and every other state could theoretically get rid of those provisions and there would be nothing stopping them from banning guns
Many civil cases are adjudicated in administrative courts. Quicker, cheaper, more efficient. Civil cases can be decided by arbitrations as well. The courts are antiquated and inefficient.
We should be originalists and follow the law and not the court's perversion of it.
The only thing section 1 of the 14th amendment requires of states is that they abide by what are already the basic limitations of any free society. John Bingham and many others made this clear at the time: there would be no new substantive limit to states' legislative powers.
Privileges or immunities? Society exists for the benefit of its citizens, who all have equal value. No caste systems.
Due process? If you're going to punish or hold liable any person, you must use your prescribed process. You must also use adequate, fair process. There's a substantive element: a law that is simply meritless is void. But that's a pretty high bar.
Equal protection? Every person is entitled to the protection of the state from private violence, with equal vigor.
This is nothing like incorporation as we know it. It would allow states to be as creative as free societies can be.
What changed in 1868? Enforcement.
Prior to the 14th, states would answer in this life to only revolution or resistance. Now, the whole nation can step in at any time.
My view is that embraced by Baude, Sachs, Campbell, Wurman, Barnett and Epstein. More importantly, it was the view sold to the people themselves at the time.
For those who say we'd have to persuade the court to change a bunch of precedent, Congress could impose this view tomorrow through a well-crafted jurisdiction or remedy stripping bill. It would be a very desirable development.
The self-absorption school of originalism remains very popular.
Yes , if you don’t understand it as the manifestation (and manifestation ONLY) of
The “Higher Law” Background of American Constitutional Law
by Edward S. Corwin
“On the federal level, until late in the
nineteenth century the Supreme Court reflected the restricted concept of judicial review by its reluctance to become the “perpetual censor” of state legislation, although in several cases the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment
was used to strike down federal enactments. With the changing personnel of
the Court and the outside pressure from the exponents of a laissez faire economy,
the Fourteenth Amendment was at last accepted as a source of authority for
judicial review which is shown to have had the effect of establishing standards
so dependant upon the individual propensities of the members of the Court
as to amount to a resurgence of the philosophy of a superior naturalism.”
I think you are generally right as a matter of original intent. The thrust of it was for states to stop enacting the Black Codes. If you punish a white man for vagrancy with a fine of $10 then that's how you punish a black man. He doesn't get two years and leased out as convict labor: slavery by another name. That's what we want to stop and we came up with words that we thought would accomplish that. Southern states, slavery is over now quit screwing around!
To say that decades later we would use that to legalize abortion and gay marriage nationwide would have been utterly shocking to the drafters.
I've also really not found much support for the rational basis test. It is a favorite in law school classrooms but we generally assume that if a law passes both houses of the legislature and is signed by the governor, there was SOME purpose for it. Or if at least the law in Lee Optical wasn't struck down, you wonder if it has any validity at all.
The main issue I think our founders would have is our stubborn insistence on refusing to amend the Constitution. We could today easily get enough support for post-New Deal laws, desegregated schools, and some rather robust rights to keep and bear arms. We should do that instead of pretending that in 1868 Congress solved every societal ill, however defined by nine lawyers in D.C.
It's not "our" stubborn insistence, it's Congress' stubborn insistence. And I don't think the founders would have had any trouble understanding it at all.
It's a product of two things.
First, during the FDR administration, federal level politicians finally realized that they could largely defeat the Constitution's limits on their powers by staffing the Court with jurists who weren't inclined to uphold those limits. A revolting development, to be sure, but not hard to understand in retrospect.
What need does Congress have of amendments, when they can just usurp any power they want, and count on the Court endorsing that seizure? At most demanding some insincere boilerplate about commerce...
Second, we have developed a self-perpetuating and largely closed political class, with views that are largely divergent from those of the general population. This, too, is not a development that would have been incomprehensible to the founders.
As a result, Congress no longer wants to originate amendments that would be popular enough with the general population to be ratified, and the amendments Congress would originate, (The ERA, the DC voting rights amendment.) can't be ratified. So what use is the amendment process to Congress? Why should they bother using it?
The answer is, of course, a Convention, and the founders might have found incomprehensible the widespread fear of holding one.
Perhaps. I think the largest problem is that for 90 years the Supreme Court has let Congress pass nearly everything under the guise of the commerce clause and the spending power.
They have no need to ask for an amendment when they can just pigeonhole every regulatory act under an absurd pretext that they are regulating commerce. Lopez and Morrison didn't change anything. The right leaning justices wanted to smack the hands of Congress a little bit but they didn't seriously consider overruling their New Deal precedents.
Nor did they ever try to explain their gun laws. When I buy a gun at my local gun store, anyone would say that was in state commerce. Sure, when the dealer bought it from an out of state wholesaler, that was interstate commerce. But that interstate commerce clearly ended when the gun got into his shop. Why they allowed the feds to take over a clearly local police issue---not to mention the 2A implications---is on the Court
Why would Congress ask for more power through an amendment when the Court gives them everything?
But you go to the opposite extreme
"On the federal level, until late in the
nineteenth century the Supreme Court reflected the restricted concept of judicial review by its reluctance to become the "perpetual censor" of state legislation, although in several cases the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment
was used to strike down federal enactments. With the changing personnel of
the Court and the outside pressure from the exponents of a laissez faire economy,
the Fourteenth Amendment was at last accepted as a source of authority for
judicial review which is shown to have had the effect of establishing standards
so dependant upon the individual propensities of the members of the Court
as to amount to a resurgence of the philosophy of a superior naturalism."
No. It's too late and such incorporation would create chaos. There are too many different causes of action, and too many types of civil courts, to make this work. States generally have juries for most civil issue, anyway.
The right to civil jury trial was among the three civil rights most deeply rooted in American history and tradition at the time of the framing of the federal Bill of Rights along with the right to criminal jury trial and the right to the free exercise of religion.
Probably safe to say that modern opinion trends overwhelmingly toward the notion that enumerating rights in a Bill of Rights was a good idea. Some founders thought otherwise, fearing that enumeration of rights—under government where only expressly granted powers were deemed legitimate—might disparage any existing right which was not specifically listed.
With the quote above Calabresi delivers evidence that the objecting founders were not arguing pointlessly, or only because they were hostile to rights. Calabresi has disparaged—by likely inadvertent omission—the right of habeas corpus.
As important as a right to a civil jury trial may be, it seems in a lesser class than habeas corpus. As we have recently seen, the passing mention it gets in the body of the Constitution has left room for trouble that a more explicit and detailed treatment in the Bill of Rights might have avoided.
I'm still waiting for that big 3A incorporation case.
Didn't the Second Circuit incorporate the 3rd Amendment?
Yes. It was the focus of the 3A chapter in In Our Defense: The Bill of Rights in Action by Ellen Alderman and Caroline Kennedy. I await the SCOTUS landmark case.
Given the wild legal politics of the Trump area generally, I wouldn’t say I’m awaiting it. Real monkey’s paw situation.
Dammit. ERA.
?
Meant “Trump era” not “area.” Now realizing I shouldn’t have put “era” in caps.
The notion that prosecutors can get a grand jury to do whatever they want is so damn annoying. It's true that they usually can. But that's only because 1) prosecutors are reluctant to bring a case to the grand jury until they are very sure the request for an indictment will be granted, and 2) the standard is only probable cause. It's *not* because grand juries are a rubber stamp. So, the notion that it is a "worthless" protection is just wrong. It is a valuable tool for ensuring that the prosecution can show that it is at least probable that someone committed the offense before asking to have that person formally accused. It should be incorporated in full.
It is somewhat of a rubber stamp, because the prosecutor largely controls what information the grand jury is exposed to, (Mushrooms, remember.) and can deny them information that might lead them to a different conclusion than the prosecutor wants.
Not fully a rubber stamp, or perhaps to extend the metaphor, sometimes the ink pad is dry.
As for incorporating the 7th Amendment, I agree it should be. I recently read a book about the ratification of the Constitution, and in almost every single ratifying convention, the lack of protection of the civil-jury right was a major argument against it. It was one of the most called for amendments if the Constitution's ratification did come to pass. Some even argued that it was implicitly protected without the need for an amendment, being so fundamental to a functioning judiciary--however, Article III's explicit guarantee of a criminal-jury right undermined, if not destroyed, that argument. So, it is clear that the 7th Amendment was seen as fundamental to the Founders, and should therefore be considered incorporated.
The main problem with incorporation is that just because you don't want THOSE people to do it doesn't mean that you can't do it yourself. They even included the 10A to make that clear.
There are obviously some things that no just government should ever do. Saying we are not going to empanel a jury and pay them each $40 per day plus mileage to try a $20 matter is not one of them.
And once you've decided that the 'mere' fact that something is in the Constitution you took an oath to uphold isn't any reason you should do it, you don't really have a constitution or the rule of law anymore, you just have the whims of the people calling the shots.
But the question is which one of those categories the 7A is in.
Remember, the BOR was a list of thou shalt nots to the federal government. Some of those things the states thought were necessary to any free government and others were things that the states wanted the power to do. The Establishment Clause is a rather direct example of the latter. Modern jurisprudence applies it to the states although it seems clear that in 1789 some states wanted to preserve the power to have established churches--they just didn't want the federal government doing it.
But that same federal government now prohibits them from non-denominational prayer in school and certain nativity scenes at Christmas. Trying to limit the federal power, they added to it. The very opposite effect of what they unambiguously did.
So the question is whether the 7A should be incorporated. Taking an oath to uphold the constitution is question begging. Maybe the 7A doesn't apply to the states. And IMHO, it does not. One does not cry out about the injustice of having his $20 crappy lawsuit heard by a judge instead of wasting resources on a jury.
England largely abolished civil jury trials during WWII (had trouble finding jurors during the war) and completely about a decade ago as part of libel reform. Is it less of a democracy for doing so? Dies this tell us anything about the centrality of jurors at the time of the revolution?
Incorporation might invalidate, for example, the view by some states (like NY) that pleading both law and equity claims in one case waives a jury for all claims, federal practice to the contrary. Again, does this rule threaten basic due process?
" Is it less of a democracy for doing so? "
Ah, yeah, actually. The trajectory of England since has not exactly supported the idea that this was a safe thing to do.
The incorporation standard is whether a protection in the Bill of Rights is fundamental to OUR scheme of justice, not whether its fundamental to ANY scheme of justice.
Plea bargaining has destroyed the concept of a trial for many.
Plea to a lesser charge and you save yourself the ulcers of expensive lawyers and protracted arguing. This is the revenge of lawyers who wish they were politicians.
"Petty juries, consisting usually of twelve men, attend courts to try matters of fact in civil causes, and to decide both the law and the fact in criminal prosecutions."
The second part of this should also be fully re-established. Juries determine the law, not judges.
The correct term is petit jury, not petty jury.