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Can a School Require Students to Learn about Sexuality and "Cisnormativity" Over Parents' Religious Objection?
In granting Mahmoud v. Taylor, the Supreme Court has agreed to consider this question.
Today the Supreme Court granted five petitions for certiorari. These cases will either be heard at the end of the term in April, or at the beginning of next term in October. (Hearing them this term would require curtailing the normal briefing schedule.)
Perhaps the highest profile case among today's cert grants is Mahmoud v. Taylor, a case that implicates the religious rights of parents to control (or at least know about) what their children learn in school.
Here is the question presented from the petition for certiorari:
Respondent Montgomery County Board of Education requires elementary school teachers to read their students storybooks celebrating gender transitions, Pride parades, and same-sex playground romance. The storybooks were chosen to disrupt "cisnormativity" and "either/or thinking" among students. The Board's own principals objected that the curriculum was "not appropriate for the intended age group," presented gender ideology as "fact," "sham[ed]" students with contrary opinions, and was "dismissive of religious beliefs." The Board initially allowed parents to opt their kids out—but then reversed course, saying that no opt-outs would be permitted and that parents would not even be notified when the storybooks were read.
Petitioners filed suit, not challenging the curriculum, but arguing that compelling their elementary-age children to participate in instruction contrary to their parents' religious convictions violated the Free Exercise Clause. Construing Wisconsin v. Yoder, the Fourth Circuit found no free-exercise burden because no one was forced "to change their religious beliefs or conduct."
The question presented is:
Do public schools burden parents' religious exercise when they compel elementary school children to participate in instruction on gender and sexuality against their parents' religious convictions and without notice or opportunity to opt out?
This case implicates parental rights, but in the context of religious exercise. It also concerns the education and upbringing of one's children, a right which rests more firmly on existing precedent than does a right to medical care of which the state disapproves. The Court's willingness to hear this case is nonetheless extra-interesting because the Court did not grant certiorari for the issue of parental rights in the Skrmetti case, which concerns whether a state may prohibit children from receiving certain medical treatments. Among other things, the ACLU argued that preventing children from receiving medical care that their parents support violates their parents due process rights.
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In my area parents can opt their students out of certain sexual content, though not all.
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If these Democrat wacko's don't get smacked down on this stuff, the next thing they'll do is ban homeschooling.
In progress in the UK as we speak.
The question of opting out should be moot because schools shouldn't even be teaching ideological sexually charged cult nonsense.
And let me guess, you should get to decide what is ideological sexually charged cult nonsense?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_trial
And let me guess, you'd prefer the State decide than parents.
And let me guess, you'd prefer the State decide than parents.
When I am provided with a service that is given equally to all of those eligible, a service that is provided under the authority of laws passed by elected representatives and paid for by all taxpayers, then I accept that I will have limited choice in how that service is delivered and what the service is.
Martin,
Why shouldn't kids hear about schools teaching about BDSM or fetish activities among consenting adults. That might decrease the amount of societal disapproval of such practices.
Why?Because we need MORE DISAPPROVAL not less.
Anything else you are confused about ?
Like the Scopes trial showed. Schools should stick with facts not a cult's religious dogma. Math is fact, Biology is fact. Gender transitions being great and the concept of cis normativity ie that the natural way of thinking in terms of male and female and how they are attracted to each other that man has intrinsically had since he crawled out of the muck is actually a pathological disease and we should instead somehow think in terms of LGIJMKFDLKJDFJDKL{FJNIODCIOPJK{FJIDOFJOUIJLDFJLIDFJIOKDJLFIKJDLIFJKFK in every aspect of our lives which claimed to be the the natural way, even though the only way to know about it is to be brainwashed over a long period by propaganda and labyrinthine often self contradictory unwieldy concepts and systemology developed a few years ago that none of its followers can even seem to wrap their heads around let alone agree about, is religious dogma and obviously incorrect dogma on par with flat earth.
Tennessee thought evolution was not a fact, that’s kinda the point.
It's also not a fact that human's sex can change, so I don't think the Scope's trial is really buttressing your side of the aisle.
It’s buttressing my point that people often disagree on the facts. Should parents get to opt out whenever they disagree with what the school teaches as fact?
Evolution has the fossil record and the easily visible mechanics of genes which also coincidentally flatly rejects the idea that you can wish upon a star to change your sex. I am amazed at how scientifically illiterate members of 'The Party of Science' can be.
You have erected a straw man. The disagreement is not about changing one's sex. It's about what "man" and "woman" mean.
Not really. It’s about trying to stop people referring to other people’s sex.
Man, woman, he, she etc are adjusted so as to require anyone who wishes to refer to another persons sex to embark upon a complex circumlocution, which circumlocution is then dubbed “offensive” - because it refers to sex.
It’s a variant on body shaming. Though shalt not comment on body shape because I have a right to insist that everyone else takes a positive attitude to my body shape. By not mentioning it.
Ditto sex.
Nope. That's a straw man.
Firstly, for 99.9% of the people, woman/man refers to both sex and gender identity so no one cares which one you are referring to.
Secondly, for the the 0.1%, what woman/man refers to is contextual. For example, SCOTUS assumed woman/man referred to sex in Title VII for a person who was fired for being trans.
Firstly, for 99.9% of the people, woman/man refers to both sex and gender identity so no one cares which one you are referring to.
No, man/woman causes no confusion for 99.9%. That’s not the same as “refers” – as you correctly note when you indicate that the speaker is actually referring to “which one” not both. What man/woman actually refers to is what the speaker intends it to refer to. Thus in 99.9% of cases when the speaker says “man” that is a reference to sex, which just happens to coincide with the word that would have been used by a different speaker intending to refer to gender. Because 99.9% of the time, they’re the same.
Secondly, for the the 0.1%, what woman/man refers to is contextual.
Indeed. The context is the speaker’s intention.
Because in 99.9% of cases there is no confusion, the argument is solely about the 0.1% of cases where there is confusion. If it were simply a question of you say tomAYto and I say tomAHto, then there would be no fuss. We’d just deal with any confusion as and when, in the rare cases that it might show up.
But as I say what it’s really about is the tomAYto folk getting very upset with the tomAHto folk, trying to get them fired for saying tomAHto, insisting that the public schools must make teachers and staff say tomAYto not tomAHto, on pain of expulsion, declaiming that everyone saying tomAYto and not saying tomAHto is vital for the medical treatment of some psychologically tortured soup makers. Soup makers who are teetering on the brink of suicide, despite being just fine for high positions in the military. And in some jurisdictions – though not as yet in the US – sending the tomAHto folk to jail for tweeting tomAHto.
It’s really about making tomAHto unsayable.
And pretending that all the old laws, universally written by grizzled old tomAHto sayers, really “refer” to tomAYto.
The employer and the school board get to decide what woman/man should refer to on the job and in class, just like they do for most everything. The First Amendment protects the right to use woman/man as the speaker wishes in almost every other context. But, it does not protect that speaker from criticism when woman/man is used to disrespect the identity of a trans person.
The current trans craze is not restricted to the US. Places where 1A does not apply have applied legal sanctions to those who use the deprecated "tomAHto" form.
What goes on outside the US demonstrates clearly the intentions of the "tomAYto" Red Guards. It's not live and let live. it's submit or else. The US simply has a different and less punitive "or else" structure.
If the "or else" is public shame, I'm for it. It's no different than disrespecting a gay, Jewish or black person (or cis, straight, Christian or white).
A large percentage of Republicans disagree with evolution, so I ask again should parents who disagree be able to opt their kids out whenever that’s taught?
. That there are fossils is one thing but that it 'records' is sht
Should parents get to opt out whenever they disagree with what the school teaches as fact?
I mean... why not? As long as they can't opt out of assessments (grades, tests), who cares if they opt out of lessons, at least up until the point that their children are learning below the bare minimum necessary for homeschooling?
['Cause plus, there's probably no better way to get a kid to learn something than telling them that they can't go to school today because all their friends are learning about some piece of forbidden knowledge.]
Because it's disruptive to the school/class/teacher to have to figure out which kids are allowed to be present for which lessons? It's one thing to do that for a self-contained sex ed unit, but to do that any time a topic may come up that parents don't like is not practical in many cases.
As a legal (let alone constitutional) matter I don't think there's any parental right to opt out of any lesson of any sort. If one doesn't want one's kids taught something, one's remedies are (a) lobby the school board; (b) switch to private school or homeschooling.
"As a legal (let alone constitutional) matter I don't think there's any parental right to opt out of any lesson of any sort."
That would depend on the laws in force in whichever jurisdiction you're in.
I mean, fine, that's trivially true — but of course if there were any such law in force then this lawsuit wouldn't exist.
That is false as can be.
And any scientist not stupid to the core knows that there is not just ONE evolution as your childish view holds
You do , for your child so you answer your own question 🙂
martin,why do you post such things.
You destroy your point by not acknowledging that what virtually everyone wants them to teach is NOT BEING TAUGHT>
Rieading Writing Math
Okay, this NPR
U.S. reading and math scores drop to lowest level in decades
June 21, 20231:04 PM ET
https://www.npr.org/2023/06/21/1183445544/u-s-reading-and-math-scores-drop-to-lowest-level-in-decades
So,your point is gone,just up in smoke. You teach my kids about perverts and they are falling and falling in reading and math.
Amos,
What is nonsense to you is not nonsense to many other consenting adults. How about a little tolerance.
Nico — How do you get from a legal doctrine that government is not allowed to consider the tenets of anyone's religion, to a legal doctrine that government must conform its practices to the tenets of specific religions, even if those are various and in conflict?
But that is the opposite of tolerance.
That some pervert or perverts accept something and indulge does not make the opposite into nonsense.
And do you realize you uade 'adults' talkinga about kids !!!
You gay posters always show your hand.
I know that the subject matter is going to affect the way people (maybe even the Justices view the case), but it's important to see the problem with the parents' position here. The same argument can be used to opt a child out of any lessons on evolution, the big bang, many history/political science topics (e.g right to the land of Israel), etc. And these are only based on known and while uncommon not super rare religious beliefs. Because anything can be a religious belief under current doctrine as long as it is genuine any instruction would have to allow for opt outs. I don't read the free exercise clause to basically mean public education can be done piecemeal.
The conservative Justices who are most likely to be against this policy, also need to address where parental rights come from in the constitution. There is definitely case law saying it exists, but the constitutional foundation of those cases is pretty dubious under the theories these Justices promote on constitutional interpretation. I personally believe it is one of the rights contemplated to be unenumerated but still protected by the 9th A., but these Justices have pretty clearly rejected that use of the 9th A. I don't see where it really fits in the 1st A.
I agree that that age is too young to be teaching about this stuff, though without looking at the readings I will note that I can't necessarilly trust the description as there is a difference between teaching it and just reading a story containing it without going further to address it. But that is a policy argument not a legal one. So I ultimately while maybe not good policy, I do think it is constitutional.
The result would basically be that everyone gets to home school their kids while being able to outsource all the actual schooling to public schools. Every bigot gets to have all the upside of home schooling and none of the downside. And the result would be exactly what you'd expect from too much home schooling: widespread ignorance and conflict.
Whereas you want to restrict schooling choices to government bureaucrats, surely the most objective unpartisan bigots of all time in all history.
Do you think parents have a right to opt their kids out of lessons on evolution, the Big Bang, etc.?
The same as the kid can opt out of taking Latin.
Latin in my experience is not required material in the way that science lessons on evolution and the Big Bang is. And your comment just shifts the question, if Latin were required and a parent objected should they get to opt out?
I actually favor liberal opt out policies, but it’s a fair point that line drawing might be necessary and difficult.
>Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
https://www.humanrights.com/course/lesson/articles-26-30/read-article-26.html
Worldwide recognized human right to everyone except Leftists.
So Florida parents can demand their kid’s school teach them CRT?
Actually the "Big Bang" is a lot more questionable an hypothesis among many astrophysicists these days. If you're curious there are some interesting YouTube videos fro Sabine Hossenfelder and a fellow from PBS among others
Matt O'Dowd, likely. PBSSpaceTime channel.
Which is to say… no? There's no "right" to opt out of taking Latin. It's typically an elective, so one doesn't need to opt out, but if it isn't you can't just decide you don't want your kid learning it.
I think if we're going to decide compulsory education doesn't violate the first amendment, we need to adopt a limiting principle. And I think gender ideology, which is more akin to religion than academics, falls outside of what can count as education.
Like putting up Ten Commandments in classrooms?
More seriously, have you heard about civics classes?
1. Yes, I think putting up 10 Commandments in classrooms in classrooms falls outside of what is education in most cases.
2. Yes, I've heard of civics classes.
I don't see how telling kids that trans and gay people exist is ideological. They do exist. It seems odd - ideological? - to pretend otherwise.
1. Teaching about sexual attraction and activity to elementary schoolers reflects the ideological position that this is a suitable subject for elementary schoolers.
2. Nobody is buying that the school teaches nothing more than that such people exist. For a start announcing their existence doesn’t do much educating unless you explain what the critters are, and how they differ from other critters. And the probability that no value judgement is ever passed when discussing these critters is zero.
3. Outside the school context, unrelated adults engaging elementary schoolers in conversation about sexual preference would be described as groomers or pervs. No reason to use a different term for teachers.
Reading a story about how a guy who likes a guy goes on an adventure is no more teaching about sexual attraction than doing the same but the guy likes a gal.
"Likes" is working way too hard here.
Sure, there are lots of stories about guy pals going off on adventures, that are entirely suitable for elementary school children. And lots of stories about guy+ gal pals doing the same. Which nobody has any objection to, so long as, for elementary schoolers, they're just pals (or brothers and sisters.)
An obvious example - one of hundreds available - might be CS Lewis's "The Silver Chair" - the hero and heroine being a schoolboy and a schoolgirl who finish as pals, even if they didn't much like each other to start with. But there's not a smidgeon of a suggestion of sexual attraction.
Much the same applies to The Horse and His Boy, where there's a boy and a girl (and a couple of horses) having an adventure. It even finishes by mentioning that in the end the boy and the girl who have argued with each other consistently throughout the story finish up getting married - so as to be able to continue arguing more conveniently." Nothing to do with "likes" of a sexual nature.
What is unsuitable for elementary schoolers is not likes but "likes."
Why do conservatives' brains go immediately to sex? It's so bizarre, but it explains a lot. Like, they're just about to have sex with children at any moment and can barely contain themselves, so that's what they assume liberals are also doing...?
Outside the school context, unrelated adults engaging elementary schoolers in conversation about sexual preference would be described as groomers or pervs. No reason to use a different term for teachers.
Nobody, I repeat, nobody wants elementary school teachers to engage their students in conversations about sexual preferences, such as "I like big butts and I cannot lie." But they engage their students all the time in discussions about the resulting family structures, like Ramona and her Mother or "The prince and the princess lived happily ever after." There's nothing perverted or sexual about throwing a couple of "the prince and the prince" stories in the mix.
Why do conservatives' brains go immediately to sex?
Possibly they just have normal brains and so when someone mentions "gay people" they think that has something to do with sex.
Maybe they're wrong and gayness has something to do with baking rather than sexual orientation. What precisely is the baking angle on gay people ? Educate us.
I feel sure that if you'd mentioned baking rather than gay people, my mind would have gone in a cake or pie direction rather than in a sex direction.
Why does the mention if gay people make you think of sex any more than the mention of straight people does? Especially assuming you're not gay yourself?
Mentioning straight people makes me think “sex” to precisely the same extent as mentioning “gay people”. Because both adjectives refer to SEXUAL orientation.
Likewise “horny people”, “well hung men”, “buxom women” and so on. The adjectives all have something to do with sex, revealing that the sexual connotation is on the speaker’s mind.
Whereas “short people”, “rich people”, “dumb people”, “black people” and “one legged people” or plain old unadorned “people” don’t have any sexual connotation.
Unless you already know that the speaker is really into sex with disabled folk.
You’re a clever fellow, if often tiresome. Surely this is not particularly difficult ?
Don't be an idiot, you know that's not what I meant.
Why does a story about a prince and a prince make you think about sex, but a story about a prince and a princess doesn't?
Why does Ramona and her Mothers make you think about sex, but Ramona and her Mother doesn't?
Can't come up with a sensible answer, Lee? I see you poking around. Come on, why do gay children's stories get you so hot?
I am unfamiliar with Ramona and her Mother. Wiki-ing it it doesn't seem to have anything to do with sex, though admit I only gave it 15 seconds.
But if you were to postulate a different story - Ramona and her Mothers - in which a child called Ramona is brought up by two women living together, then whether the "Mothers" connotes a sexual relationship depends on the details. Are they her actual mother and her grandmother ? A couple of Aunts ? A couple of platonic pals ? Do the mothers refer to a biological mother and a foster mother ? Or a series of foster mothers ?
But if someone had gone to the trouble of writing a story called Ramona and her Mothers, and the Mothers in question were a same sex couple in a relationship, then the author would certainly have chosen these characters to emphasise the same sex relationship. It woud not be happenstance. So if the reader picks up on the sexual angle it's not a mistake, or an odd brainwave affecting things only in conservative brains. It's what the author intends.
(This would not be the case of course if Ramona and her Mothers were an autobiographical tale, of an actual Ramona and her actual same sex relationship Mothers.)
So I find sexual connotation when it has been deliberately placed there by the author.
Take CS Lewis and his Narnia series. When I first read it as a child, the Christian allegory never occured to me. I was reading the stories as stories, and jolly good ones too. But now I know that he was seeding by mind with Christian propaganda (unsuccessfully alas.)
The Christian stuff in Narnia is not there by accident. And should there ever be a Ramona and her Mothers, with the mothers in a a same sex relationship, the same sexery will not be there by accident. It'll be there on purpose.
Probably because you cannot conceive of two people of the same sex being in love with each other. So it must be about sex.
I should add en passant that there's an excellent bit of literary interpretation about Narnia, called Planet Narnia (whose conclusions, like all lit crit, may or may not be sound.)
It makes the point that Lewis was big on the idea of telling a story, beneath the surface, by trying to get the reader to experience it, ie absorbing the essence and character of the story subliminally rather than by using a two by four.
Ramona and Her Mothers would be the two by four method.
"Probably because you cannot conceive of two people of the same sex being in love with each other."
I can.
"So it must be about sex."
Well kinda. "In love" is different from "love." You can love your Mom, or your brother, or your daughter. "In love" is something different.
There's no sex in Brief Encounter but you can hardly say it's not about sex.
There are lots of stories about passionate, but unconsummated, romantic love. But the fact that the main characters don't get it on doesn't mean that sex is absent from the story. There may be important reasons why there's no actual sex. It may be contrary to law or custom or religion or morals, in the circumstances. Or impractical, or prevented by separation. But it's still chugging along in the background if only as sex manque.
So you can certainly have romantic love without sex, just as you can have sex without romantic love. But romantic love without sex, in a story, usually involves a certain amount of tension about the "without sex" component.
When Nikolay Rostov finally dumps Sonya, for Princess Maria, but Sonya carries on living with them as childminder and friend, Tolstoy describes Sonya as a "sterile flower."
The "sterile" reference is not a accident. It means that the absence from her life, and her love, of its reproductive element is a tragedy.
But if someone had gone to the trouble of writing a story called Ramona and her Mothers, and the Mothers in question were a same sex couple in a relationship, then the author would certainly have chosen these characters to emphasise the same sex relationship.
a) Not necessarily b) Even if so, that doesn't mean the author was attempting to highlight the sexual aspects of such a relationship. Again, your mind seems to want to focus on everyone's sexual habits, even in childrens' books.
But more critically than your dirty mind is what I can only assume is the intended consequence of your position, namely that same-sex couples will always and forever be second class. Children can't be exposed to the idea because it triggers people like you to think of sex in a way that that straight relationships don't. That's on you, not the authors of books that just happen to feature two moms instead of a mom and a dad.
namely that same-sex couples will always and forever be second class
They are. Couples are the human version of pair bonding which is a reproductive strategy. Same sex couples can’t produce children. As to rearing children, there’s lots of evidence that some kinds of family structure are worse for children (on average) than the boring old Mom + Pop + their own kids structure.
Step-parenting, single parenting, single Mom with frequent changes of boyfriend, foster parenting and so on. I haven’t hunted for research specifically on same sex couples – I doubt there’s a particularly large sample size run through to maturity as yet. But they are by definition step-parenty. A same-sex couple, qua couple, can’t be bringing up their own children, even if one member of the couple is doing so.
So all of these family structures are inferior to the norm, in the area of child producing and rearing. (The fact that sometimes Dad + Mom is not an option, eg in cases of death, doesn’t stop the replacement structure from being inferior.)
In the area of not child producing and not child rearing then sure, there’s no inferiority of same sex coupling as opposed to other kinds of family structure.
In the same way, a standalone microwave that no longer works to cook things can still be quite useful as a spot to keep your big cooking pot on. And as such a spot it works well enough. But you’d be quite eccentric to argue that this microwave is other than sub-optimal.
So if the government wished to indoctrinate children in public school about family structure (which I am not recommending) it would be indoctrinating the norm, the optimal structure.
As to your concern with my dirty mind, you keep forgetting that we are talking about same sex couples, advertised as such.
A couple of guys living together and bringing up a child are not a "same sex" couple unless they are in a sexual or non-sexual romantic (ie sex manque) relationship. The label same sex couple means that they are sexually attracted to each other, and that this is the character of the relationship that the speaker / writer wishes to bring to our attention. We don't have to dig for this meaning - it's on the surface, explicit, intentional.
If we were dealing with a couple of brothers living together, bringing up their dead sister's child, they would be two humans of the same sex living together. But they would not be referred to as a "same sex couple." That's not what it means.
I appreciate that you're willing to cop to your own bigotry, but it still must be called out and shamed.
If you really think this, then why don't you object to stories about adopted children? After all, a) they're second class in exactly the same way, and b) they draw attention to the sexual intercourse that resulted in an unwanted child in need of adoption. It seems like, by your own metrics, stories about adopted kids aren't appropriate for elementary school children. Yes?
The label same sex couple means that they are sexually attracted to each other, and that this is the character of the relationship that the speaker / writer wishes to bring to our attention.
Here's where we have the full proof of your bigotry. None of these stories use the term "same sex" in the story. It's not Ramona and her Same Sex Dads. Once again, it's just your mind that's focused on the sex part. Let me give you some examples, bigot.
First, whenever you're filling out a form that says
Sex () M () F
, does your mind think "Whoa! Why are they asking me who I like to fuck?" And then after a bit of a freak out, you realize "Oh wait, by sex they mean gender! What a relief!"If you're not that insanely retarded at the doctor's office, why are you so insanely retarded when you hear the phrase "same sex relationship?" It doesn't mean "fucking all the time relationship." It means "same gender relationship." It's really really really fucked up that you don't realize that.
Second, why don't you attribute the same reasoning to "heterosexual" relationships? Ramona has a heterosexual mother and father, who are in an "opposite sex relationship." They obviously had to have fucked in order for Ramona to be alive. If anything, the sex is even more front and center than in an adoptive or same-sex relationship. Ramona literally spurted out of her mother's vajayjay because her father's schlong spurted a semen schload up into it. That's 100% implied by the fact that Beverly Cleary refers to Ramona's mother and father. But somehow, that's fine with you? Explain.
First, whenever you're filling out a form that says Sex () M () F, does your mind think "Whoa! Why are they asking me who I like to fuck?" And then after a bit of a freak out, you realize "Oh wait, by sex they mean gender! What a relief!"
You really are stuck on this nuttery.
My mind thinks - they're asking me what sex I am. The clue is in the word "Sex" written on the form. (I can also take their hints as to what they want when the form says Name, Address etc)
And my sex - I'm amazed I have to explain this to you given your manic obsession with gayery - has absolutely nothing to do with who I want to fuck. It's entirely to do with which reproductive team I'm on.
Am I on the little gamete, delivered by penis, team; or am I on the big gamete, lying in wait in the tunnels for a passing little gamete to come a'knocking.
That's what sex means.
You were obviously sold shamefully short in biology class. You should sue.
Second, why don't you attribute the same reasoning to "heterosexual" relationships? Ramona has a heterosexual mother and father, who are in an "opposite sex relationship."
Again, you really do need to take that biology teacher to the cleaners.
Biology 101 - here we go :
ALL children result from heterosexual interactions. That's how it works. (Though these days it's possible for the heterosexual interaction to be accomplished without using the traditional delivery mechanism.) That's all folks.
So telling a story in which a child is being brought up by its own parents, does not involve any allusion to sex beyond that implicit in the mere fact that the child exists. This allusion, even if it were to impinge on the reader's consciousness, is a "fixed cost" - no story about a child could avoid it, whoever the child is being raised by.
Whereas if the storyteller goes to the trouble of highlighting that the child is being raised by a same sex couple, or by three BDSM aficionados, or by a hooker, then the storyteller is sprinkling the story, deliberately and explicitly, with gratuitous allusions to sex.
This is not peculiar to sex of course. If the writer highlights that the parents are smokers, or Republicans, or escaped criminals those are deliberate and explicit points made in addition to the fact that the child has some parents.
Not in a children's book!
When you read one of the Disney stories as a kid — say, Snow White, or Cinderella or the like — and the prince and princess ultimately found each other, did you hear "And they lived happily ever after" and think, "And now they're going to go fuck"? When you read a Hardy Boys story (I won't even get into that name!) and there were scenes including their father and mother, did you think, "Aha! Those two had sex; that's where these kids came from"?
My mind thinks - they're asking me what sex I am. The clue is in the word "Sex" written on the form.
Then why are you so confused about "same-sex relationship?" There too, the word "sex" is simply and obviously referring to the genders of the couple, not their sexual habits.
It's simply not true that having gay characters in a story is intended to allude to those characters' sexual relationship. Would you say the same about a story with a step-parent? It fits all your same criteria -- the child is being raised by (at most) one of their natural parents, plus another adult whose only real reason for being around is as a fuck buddy. Yet there are lots of children's stories featuring step-parents. Where's the outrage?
Randal : Then why are you so confused about "same-sex relationship?" There too, the word "sex" is simply and obviously referring to the genders of the couple, not their sexual habits.
I'm afraid I am not a psychiatrist and i cannot get you past this problem. But I doubt it will kill you.
When you read one of the Disney stories as a kid — say, Snow White, or Cinderella or the like — and the prince and princess ultimately found each other, did you hear "And they lived happily ever after" and think, "And now they're going to go fuck"?
No, you know that the contents of living happily ever after in these circumstances includes the production of a whole string of little Princes and Princesses. Depending on their age, children may for a while - unless they live on a farm - remain unaware of the process by which these little Princes and Princesses will arrive, but that they will arrive is certain.
Indeed sometimes it's explicitly mentioned. In the Horse and His Boy which I mentioned earlier, we are told that the boy and girl involved in the adventure are going to finish up getting married "so as to carry on arguing with each other more conveniently" - a delightful view of marriage - but we are also told that their son will grow up to be one of the Great Kings of Archenland. There may be no sex, but there is reproduction.
As for children's stories in which there are some children and a couple of heterosexual parents, it was Randal who was insisting that sex must necessarily be leaping to mind. I agree that it doesn't (usually) in a childen's story. Any sex implied by the mere fact of the child living with its Mom and its Pop is the ur-sex by which the child was generated, and so is most unlikely to in the forefront of the author or reader's mind. It's part of the furniture of our minds, and when we are innocent children we just know that Moms and Pop somehow have children, including ourselves. Storks are involved somehow.
Unless the author goes out of his way to alert us to current sex by making explicit reference to the sexuality of the parents - whether that be sexual orientation, fetishes, whatever - we're not going to be thinking "hey, where did that sex angle come from ? Isn't this a children's book ?" The ur-sex remains in the mental backroom.
Even in real life we don't (usually) think about our neighbors having sex, even though they seem to have finished up with children. But we know that some must have happened at some point. But if they ask us to childmind for the evening because they are going out to the local Miss Whiplash club, then their sexual activity will force its way into our minds.
So an author can have a child being brought up by Bob and Brenda, Bob and Dave, just Brenda, and so on. The author will usually tell us something about the relationships between the parties. If we discover that Brenda is the child's stepmother, we know to be on the alert for poisoned apples.
Ur-sex! Man you are willing to go to vast extremes to justify your bigotry.
As far as I can tell all you mean by ur-sex is implied sex that's acceptable. Any other implied sex is "pervy" and therefore unacceptable.
That's just straight-up bigotry. Disguising it in fancy language doesn't change anything.
For the rest of us, the implied sex that homosexual parents might be engaged in is no more salient or intentional than the implied sex that heterosexual parents might be engaged in.
As far as I can tell all you mean by ur-sex is implied sex that's acceptable. Any other implied sex is "pervy" and therefore unacceptable.
I’m not terribly surprised that you have grasped the wrong end of the semantic stick – again. You have a talent for it.
“ur” as a prefix means “original”
Thus :
“the ur-sex by which the child was generated”
means what it says. The original sex that generated the child.
So, step-parents? You've conspicuously avoided that question.
They're definitely not having ur-sex.
The question is – what is the author choosing to draw to our attention about the parents, in any particular case ?
Where the child is being brought up by its own parents, and the author has nothing in particular to say about them, he’s drawing nothing about them to our attention. And nothing includes nothing about sex. That is the usual case of course. (As previously mentioned, the ur-sex involved in the creation of the child is not something drawn to our attention, it’s inherent in the existence of the child. It’s like in a movie when we see an outdoor scene. The fact that there’s sky in the picture doesn’t mean the director wishes to draw our attention to the sky. It’s just that it’s hard to shoot an outdoor scene without any sky.)
But if the author mentions or otherwise reveals that the parents have adopted the child, we are being informed that the child has mislaid its original parents. This isn’t nothing, but it’s nothing about sex.
Likewise if we have a stepparent. Or a single parent (where the child has mislaid one of its parents.) Or a child raised by its uncle. All of these variants on the usual case, if revealed to us, tell us that this is not the usual case (which may be an important part of the story.) But none of them, so far, draws anything about sex to our attention.
But if the author reveals, either explicitly or otherwise, that the couple bringing up the child is a same sex couple*, then the special thing about the parents that is being brought to our attention is the sexual orientation of the parents. Which is about sex. There are other things aside from same sexery that the author could mention about parents, which are also about sex – eg the casual mention of a whip and handcuffs that the child finds in a bedroom drawer, or allusions to a ménage a trois. Generally these things don’t appear in children’s stories, but if they did – and we can’t rule it out these days – I would think that was inappropriate. For children. Or at least elementary schoolchildren. For adults of course the author can go the full coprophilia if he feels like it.
* note as I have already explained a same sex couple is not the same thing as two parental units or guardians of the same sex – such as two uncles. A same sex couple means a couple of people of the same sex (that would be sex not gender) who are sexually attracted to each other. Or conceivably not sexually attracted to each other, but nevertheless engaged in a sexual relationship.
In other words, your answer is that if it's an "opposite sex couple," it's not about sex, but if it's a "same sex couple," it is. That's just bigotry, there's no logic or reason there.
Let's try an example.
No problemo, right?
Oh no, the sexual innuendo is too much!
That's bigotry, pure and simple. There's absolutely no distinction between the two in terms of sexual content.
Well in both cases there's a reference to dating.
The author wants us to know that mommy is in, or hoping to be in, a relationship with either Bruce or Betty.
If mommy was just going out for a meal with Betty there'd be no allusion to a relationship. A meal is not a date unless intended as such.
So... you think both examples are too sexual for elementary school because they involve adults going on dates? Wow, that's probably more ridiculous than the bigoted answers you've been providing so far! Well I can't wait to see you draw up a list of books to ban from schools because they have references to dating.
I'm merely pointing out that references to dating are necessarily allusions to actual or potential sexual relationships - which the child reader/listener may or may not appreciate, according to age and upbringing. But the allusion is there whether they get it or not.
IMHO schools should not be in the business of sex education at all. That is a matter for parents. No doubt children discover stuff about sex from what their parents or siblings tell them, and from other children. But schools should be operating - as far as sex is concerned - at the level the primmest parents are comfortable with. Because parents who wish to spice it up are free to do it in their own time. You can add salt to the dish, you cannot subtract it.
When we come to allusions to sexual relationships in elementary school books, the primmest level is that which is known to all children from a very young age. They know that babies come from Mommys and Daddys, they have been told that Mommy's large tummy portends another brother or sister. Mommys and Daddys are about babies. They don't know how this happens, and they don't need to know, until their parents tell them. Or until they infer it from watching dogs.
Thus stories in which the Prince and Princess walk, or possibly ride, off into the sunset, with the prospect of a tribe of small Princes and Princesses coming along later, does not offend the primmest parent. It's just another case of a Mommy and a Daddy producing babies, by unspecified means.
But allusions to other kinds of sexual relationships - merely recreational ones, which are not associated with babies - are unnecessary and therefore undesirable in elementary school. Children between the age of 5 and 10 do not need to know anything about recreational sex, or couples forming for recreational sex. And if you urgently disagree, feel free to discuss recreational sex with your own children.
Discuss it with mine, and you're a groomer.
OF course , in law school, they teach you NEVER to make arguments like that. It is a sign of despair on your part.
Anwyay, you invert your own premise. WHO decides what my kids will or will not do ???? ME --just as I am sure you do for your kids. ,
"also need to address where parental rights come from in the constitution."
The answer to that would be that parental rights don't come from the Constitution, they're prior to the Constitution.
It certainly IS a problem that the Supreme court has flatly refused to apply the 9th amendment, because this sort of thing is what the 9th amendment was about: Preserving existing rights unless they were expressly abolished, rather than only if they were expressly guaranteed.
Might be difficult to identify a pre-existing parental right in relation to public schools given I don’t think there were many (any) public school systems in pre-9th America.
That kind of inverts the logic, doesn't it? If the government just stays the hell out of an area, you presume that area is devoid of rights?
It might only mean there’s going to be no record of such a right, which creates an area might tempting for judges to “identify” (make up) ones.
But it might also be that it took the government an awfully long time to get uppity enough to work up the nerve to violate the right.
Before public schools education was parent initiated so a conflict between the parent’s rights and the schooling wasn’t a thing, so it’s doubtful where a pre-existing right of parents against their child’s school could come from.
But that's the exact reasoning: How could parents NOT have a right to control what was originally entirely a parental activity?
The government begins claiming to help you, and in the end claims the power to oppose you, instead.
The real question is whether any such right is satisfied by the option to homeschool. After all, that's what people were doing at the time of the 9th.
Because the nature of the activity has changed. It’s like how Thomas argued schools could strip search kids because in the old days teachers assumed in loco parentis, but that’s not applicable to a public school system.
Oh, so if government changes things, rights evaporate?
Sorry, that people were doing something before government insinuated itself does indeed suggest a right existed.
Also, I'm fine, as I've said many times, even with new unenumerated rights that would have been laughed out of the room centuries ago (and note: control over educating kids would not even be a new one, as per above.)
The constitutional goal was the people protecting their rights, not finding ways for hot air politicians to stomp all over them. This is why new unenumerated rights are fine, but functionally new unenumerated powers, that would have been laughed out of the room centuries ago, sans amendment are not.
There is no logical inconsistency. Both deny government stomping power at its whim.
BS. Parental rights are not some universally inherent right that predates the Constitution. I don't believe that there is such a think as that category of rights. I can't think of any rights that we have now that would fit into this category. Even the obvious ones are not such as right to life, or right to decline sexual activity.
The Court has traditionally used arguments for parents’ rights over their children that intertwine with prospective parents’ reproductive rights.
>Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Article 26
UN Declaration of Human Rights ratified over 60 years ago.
Big fan of the UN are you?
Also, pretty sure you could argue home and private schooling options satisfy that.
I'm a big fan of parental rights be recognized by deranged Leftists who continually demand sexual or sex-related access to the people's children.
“I'm a big fan of parental rights be recognized by deranged Leftists who continually demand sexual or sex-related access to the people's children.”
Opted out of English class?
That all you got? Some lame typo-pounce?
lol SAD
Illiteracy is sad, yes.
Brilliant typo-pounce ad-hom combo!
Definition of 'contributing' right there!
I’m happy to contribute to your education.
You know what? My son was reading at an adult level when he entered kindergarten, his favorite book in kindergarten was White Fang. This has been true in my family going back generations: We teach our children to read long before they hit school. We're typically more English literate before starting school than the average person is leaving it.
So, the practical consequences of him opting out of English class? Zero.
You think English class is just about reading classics?
What benefit do you perceive from attending English class for those who can and do read and understand classics before arriving in school ?
I suppose your parents might not have taught you to write, but the odds against that are pretty low if they’ve already taught you to read well.
I mean, I think this whole line of argument has veered into really dumb territory, but reading a book is not the same as being able to interpret it.
Nothing wrong with Lit Crit in English Class for the smartest kids, but a total waste of time for the vast majority of children in public schools.
Indeed worse than a waste of time - a giant sucking sound draining out the fun of just reading books. And even more obviously pointless for the large minority who leave school without being able to read competently, or at all.
I can't think of any rights that we have now that would fit into this category.
Self-defense is one that I'm aware of. I think many people have argued that freedom to marry is also one, like, a state couldn't make marriage flatly illegal, although I can't recall if SCOTUS ever endorsed that one.
It used to be legal for husbands to rape and beat their wives, thus self-defense is not an inherent rights. Right to marry? Just ask the blacks and gays who had to fight hard for the right to marry.
Just out of interest - is this correct ?
If a man could not be punished under the law for raping or beating his wife, that is not the same as saying that the wife cannot plead self defense for violence employed to prevent or mitigate her husband’s assaults.
But did the law remove her self defense defense as well as immunising her husband in criminal law ?
It's ironic the court cases that recognized parental rights to educate their children were driven by Republican overreach (e.g. over language teaching).
My how the circles have turned.
Let's find what the issue being taught is. Only then can we pick which principles to put on a pedestal, or at the bottom of an outhouse, in our rhetoric.
That's not what the 9th Amendment is about. By its terms it is merely a rule of construction. It neither grants nor protects any rights. In practical terms, what it does is create a dichotomy between constitutionally protected rights and those rights that may exist but do not have any federal constitutional protection. Thus, even assuming parents have some kind of pre-existing right to dictate to public schools what their individual child will learn on an a la carte basis, that right has no protection in the federal constitution. I think that's why the plaintiffs here were smart to couch this in terms of their religious rights, because that clearly is a right protected by the federal constitution.
"In practical terms, what it does is create a dichotomy between constitutionally protected rights and those rights that may exist but do not have any federal constitutional protection."
This is exactly what it is NOT supposed to do, you understand. Under the 14th amendment, ALL rights get federal constitutional protection, enumerated and unenumerated.
"Such is the character of the privileges and immunities spoken of in the section of the fourth article of the Constitution. To these privileges and immunities, whatever they may be—for they are not and cannot be fully defined in their entire extent and precise nature—to these should be added the personal rights guaranteed and secured by the first eight amendments of the Constitution; "
"Added", he says. "Added". To identify the Privileges and Immunities guaranteed by the 14th amendment, you START with the unenumerated rights, and then ADD the enumerated ones.
You'd have the enumerated ones be the only ones that count, which is expressly contrary to the intent of the Constitution, 9th amendment, and 14th amendment!
Are you claiming the rights in the 9th Amendment=the rights in the privileges and immunities clause in Article IV?
No, I'm saying that, per that explanation of the 14th amendment, P&I rights are the sum of 9th amendment rights and Bill of Rights rights.
They were clearly referring to Article IV in that quote.
Are you arguing to stomp on rights because of one issue?
Listen to yourself.
The fact that a few scholars claim that this was originally derived from part of the Articles of Confederation doesn't mean the speech was referring to those long dead articles.
They were referring to the 14th amendment's P&I clause, which states, "the citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states."
This is literally where incorporation was supposed to take place, before the Slaughterhouse Court deliberately gutted the 14th amendment. So, the rights that the P&I clause covers are EXACTLY the rights which are federally enforceable against the states.
It would literally be impossible for me to have provided any more direct evidence that unenumerated rights are supposed to be federally enforceable.
Bellmore — In principle it would be entirely possible for you to provide more direct evidence. Your problem is that you have misread your link, interpreted it in a particular (and presently contested) present-minded context.
You then assigned it a meaning based on inferences you derived from doing that present-minded stuff. To make a legitimate historical claim, you should have proceeded on the basis of inferences made on the basis of making historical survivals critique each other. But you did not do that. Instead, you included in your account of the past a bunch of present-minded stuff that nobody in he past ever heard of because it all happened after they were dead.
You shifted from the 9th Amendment to the 14th Amendment. Again, *by its terms* the 9th is merely a rule of construction. It doesn’t on its own protect anything. That’s what other parts of the Constitution are for.
Sure, by itself the 9th amendment doesn't protect anything, but it does have a bearing on what is supposed to be protected.
Sure, by itself the 9th amendment doesn't protect anything
This is why courts don't really find the need to talk about the 9th. The analysis as to whether any specific right is protected doesn't run through the 9th, it's either enumerated or it comes from common law. So you see a lot of common law analysis. If you like, you can presume that the 9th is an unstated premise to that sort of analysis.
EXCELLENT That you didn't fall for that. Those are natural law rights
A New Birth of Marriage: Love, Politics, and the Vision of the Founders
by Brandon Dabling
I expect that the fact the school district once offered an "opt-out," but then took it away, will be central to the Court's analysis. That has been a characteristic of many of its recent decisions expanding "religious freedom" - they've been situations where generally applicable laws have exceptions for some cases but not religious ones (e.g., movie theaters treated as "essential businesses" during the pandemic but churches not; private schools permitted public funding but not religious ones; etc.).
With all of those cases, I have wondered, "What stops the state from simply crafting a rule with no exceptions," in order to address those "religious freedom" concerns. This case appears to be the Court's vehicle to close that loophole. Not only can you not decline to except religious institutions from a generally applicable law, when you provide exceptions for secular institutions, but I expect the Court will hold that you can't revise a law to remove exceptions generally, in order to preclude the argument that people are entitled to a "religious freedom" exception. I expect the analysis will center on the fact that the schools offered opt-outs previously: if this was acceptable before, why isn't it now? Why are you getting rid of the opt-out, if not to prevent parents from brainwashing their children as they see fit?
Such a holding will be tremendously frustrating, as parents are deciding that their religion requires them to expose their kids to measles, whooping cough, and polio. States currently could respond to exploitive invocation of vaccine opt-outs by removing those opt-outs, but if the Court adopts a kind of "MFN for all time" "religious freedom" standard for evaluating these kinds of changes, it will become more difficult to address the public health crisis brewing among the nutter community.
Obviously it’s immensely frustrating for a school to have its pupil brainwashing interfered with by parental brainwashing.
Surely we should have a rule governing whose right to brainwash has dibs ?
I was enthusiastic about your response unitl I got to the nonsense about measles.Showing kids the perverted lust of homosexuals is NOT LIKE MEASLES.
No, they haven't. Read the opinion in Dobbs; it methodically lays out the appropriate manner to implement the 9th amendment.
So many illogical things you say. Let's pcik 3
THe same argument CANNOT be used for evoution since the entire legal point is the subject, and evolution is not , say, homosexual perversion.
The second point is how uninformed you are about public education and our organic laws, for Northwest Ordinance is explicit that you are wrong
"Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."
The Constitution completely disagrees with you and uses your own argument to do it
The Constitution of the United States protects the rights of parents to raise their children, and the natural law can be considered in the context of these rights. The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment protects the right of parents to make decisions about their children's care, education, and upbringing.
========================
NOw, on to why you got this so wrong.WE will restrict ourself to 2 reasons.
1) you argue as if you will take care of your kids according just as you posted BUT you take that right from others. Constitution will not suppport you saying you are the embodiement of community values !!!!
2) You seem to not know how the Court has ruled about the non-difference between Conscience and Religious Ojection. You can take a conscientious objection under the military draft as an atheist. You want to take away conscience rights by the vindictive labeling of them as religious. My kids will not be taught that gays are not perverted or trans is natural or abortion (now even at live birth!!) is not killing.
I must respond again to this mindless post of yours
Your point, whether utlimately defensible or not,is just NA at the moment
https://www.npr.org/2023/06/21/1183445544/u-s-reading-and-math-scores-drop-to-lowest-level-in-decades
U.S. reading and math scores drop to lowest level in decades
June 21, 2023 1:04 PM ET
Why is the question does it burden? What happened to the word “substantial?”
This view of yours takes the state not as the protector of our God-given rights but as the determiner and limiter and that is plainly wrong.
You must know that you could get longterm employmenbt for a small army of lawyiers on the meaning of 'substantial' 🙂
Right ?
The main cases involving parents making education choices involve them not sending children to schools. They don't involve opt-outs of certain education requirements while keeping their children in school. Public school is not a sort of "Chinese menu."
Yoder involved not sending children to high school so this is not going to be limited to "elementary school." Also, it is not going to be limited to any specific curriculum though we are going to hear about the facts when the law is the issue.
The choices are going to be complicated. Public schools teach certain values. If a lesson plan promotes the idea it is wrong to not allow children to have interracial parents, some beliefs will be "shamed." Ditto supporting equality for women. Some people have moral beliefs stating women have more limited roles.
I agree. So long as you have the option to send your child to a non government school, or to homeschool, I don't think you can say that your religious freedom is infringed if the government school that you choose to send your children to teaches them stuff you think is ungodly.
Public schools teach certain values. If a lesson plan promotes the idea it is wrong to not allow children to have interracial parents, some beliefs will be "shamed." Ditto supporting equality for women. Some people have moral beliefs stating women have more limited roles.
Just so. The values that are taught are those determined by the government school, or higher government echelons, and ultimately the legilslature. Don't like their values - elect someone different . Or avoid schools teaching values you don't share.
But the values selected by the elected folk might not be to your liking either. Maybe they feel that children should be taught that interracial marriage, same sex relationships, abortion, contraception, women's equality are bad. Cussing too.
There's nothing in the 14th Amendment that makes teaching this sort of thing is public schools unconstitutional - it doesn't deprive anyone of their equal protection under the laws. It's just school. Now making Johnny sit in the corner with a dunce's hat on simply because he's black, that would be different. But teaching that women should stay in the kitchen, baking pie, and waiting for the man of the house to come home to get started on another baby - if that's what the government school wants to teach, then that's what it can teach.
"So long as you have the option to send your child to a non government school, or to homeschool, I don't think you can say that your religious freedom is infringed if the government school that you choose to send your children to teaches them stuff you think is ungodly."
That's very nice for the people who can afford to pay the taxes that support the public schools, AND separately pay a second time for their children's educations. As a practical matter, the government can keep you from doing anything that costs money, by simply taking so much of your money away that you can no longer afford to do it, and have no choice but to use the government service you've already been forced to pay for.
I agree. Down with public schools. Burn them down and then salt the earth.
And poor parents ?
Let them eat vouchers !
We do that with food, you know: We don't tax everybody to the point where most people can't afford to buy groceries, and then run government soup kitchens only the wealthy can afford to skip eating at. Instead, we give the poor vouchers.
Didn’t a lot of kids go without schooling before taxes on individual Americans amounted to much?
Not as many as you might think.
But still a lot, right? The idea of public schools is to benefit them.
No, historically speaking, mandatory public schools didn't kick in for that purpose. "The Prussian model" was expressly adopted for purposes of civic indoctrination, not education.
Lee writes always as if today's public schools have not changed a whit. How in the dark.
Here is the legal establishment of public schools from our organic laws.
"Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. "
SO you claim 3 wrong things
You say public schools were founded to ignore religion and morality
YOu say that except for this dispute they are really doing a good job
Last year, the National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP), “the nation’s report card,” showed that not even half (43%) of fourth graders in the U.S. scored at or above a proficient level in reading. And for marginalized students, the numbers are much worse: just 17% of Black students, 21% of Latino students, 11% of student with disabilities, and 10% of multilingual learners can read proficiently by fourth grade.
Finally, you go full intolerant by claiming (by implication)that since you are happy everyone else has to be happy. Guess what? You are not king of the universe.
Whoa, what are you actually asking? It is this, DO you have the resources to implement your choice .
By standing and by privilege most who implement the choice are uttelry different from you and I
": Nationally, more than 20% of public school teachers with school-age children enroll them in private schools, or almost twice the 11% rate for the general public."
41% of representatives in the House and 46% of US senators send or have sent at least one of their children to a private institution.
Let's just talk about Grammar School .On what basis would you even have to raise such a question ; the idea it is wrong to not allow children to have interracial parents, some beliefs will be "shamed."
Look, they can't reas , write or do 'rithmetic. I taught almost 10 years at the college level (incl Math) and they don't know sht. You want them to approve gay sex but not be able to add !!!
yoiu and I can talk when schools are doing at least what EVERYBODY demands of them
You unintentionally destroyed your argument. It is totally like a Chinese menu and that is the problem. Surely you don't contend that graduates today learn reading , writing,and rithmetic.
We call the first 8 years of school GRAMMAR school.Ask any college teacher, they no shtall about grammar
19-year-old, who cannot read or write, sues school for $3 million over harassment, neglect
THIS CASE WILL SHOCK YOU but you need to be shocked.
"parents would not even be notified when the storybooks were read"
No grooming here. Nope.
Wouldn't "cisnormality" be redundant?
I know. Why do so many people object to teaching kids that it's normal for people to not be distressed by their body parts?
I think it’s more the idea that there’s nothing abnormal about not being cis.
I think the point *I'm* making is that "cis" IS normal, so "cisnormality" is redundant; It's lik saying "normalnormality".
What they mean is the idea that cis is normal and non-cis is not is what’s not ideal.
What's 'normal' got to do with 'ideal'? Most people, by a pretty large margin, are "cis". That makes "cis" objectively normal whether or not you think the situation is ideal.
Normal doesn’t only mean a numerical norm, Brett, it can and often refers to a moral ideal.
We have two words, "normal" and "ideal" because they have different meanings. Don't make our language poorer by insisting on using them to mean the same thing.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/normal
See 1.b and 1.c and 3.a-d.
This is what they are getting at.
Looks like it agrees with me, actually.
No, that's not how it works. Words have multiple means. "Normal" can mean typical/average/common, but it can also mean ideal. Think of the word "normative."
Obviously for a society it is the ideal as it's undeniable that a biologically intact natural family produces the best children.
To ignore propagation of the species as a foundational ideal is to have the same mental illness all these queer weirdos have.
I’m not the collectivist you are. It’s sad to think your function is the propagation of the species (it’s especially funny that this idea is tossed around so much by weird incels).
Malika, if a society's institutions don't promote its survival, it dies. While I'll admit dead/never born people don't commit a lot of moral wrongs, they don't do much good, either.
That means a society has to pay attention to facilitating reproduction, unavoidably. The morality that kills a society is a dysfunctional morality.
I don’t really agree here. Society’s institutions don’t need to promote its survival, they just need not to promote its destruction.
Survival aka reproduction is a natural impulse hammered into humans by natural selection, just as it is so hammered into beetles and crocodiles. No societal institutions are required, natural inclinations acting on individuals are quite sufficient.
If a human society does develop institutions or a pervasive morality that discourages reproduction then in time it will fail and be replaced by more reproduction friendly societies.
If the whole human race decides to go “post reproduction” that will be bad for humans. But probably good for crocodiles. Beetles will probably do fine either way.
Is that more important than democracy? Free people can, and do, make bad decisions all the time.
What connection did you intend between your first sentence and your second ?
The whole constitutional structure of the USA is constructed on the recognition that democracy and freedom are not at all the same thing. And that the former is often the enemy of the latter.
Depends on what you mean by "normal" 🙂
You could say that Olympic gold medallists are abnormal, in that they are rare animals, with exceptional talents / achievements. "Exceptional" denoting an exception to the normal.
On the other hand you could say that they are normal people. They don't defy the laws of Physics, they are not "humans but not as we know it, Jim". They went to school like everybody else. And they like ice cream. They fit within normal humanity, and are merely exceptional in their athletic achievements.
Malika prefers to emphasize the second sense, those who regard trans folk as very unusual oddities prefer to emphasize the first sense.
By definition it's not normal.
"I think it’s more the idea that there’s nothing abnormal about not being cis."
To the extent that non being cis means being distressed by the fact that you have a penis, or a vagina, or breasts, I'd say that that's abnormal.
Do you think being distressed that you’re shorter than most makes one abnormal? How about your hair color or body? Or the size or shape of your nose?
A non analogous analogy.
If you are male and you have a tiny penis, or if you are surprisingly ugly as to body shape or face it’s perfectly rational to be distressed. These disabilities are liable to have a significantly adverse effect on your life chances.
But if you’re male and you have a normal size and shape penis, which is entirely functional; or if you have two perfectly good and shapely ears and find yourself longing to lop off an ear or your penis, then that’s not rational. It’s a sign of some kind of mental problem.
In the same way anorexia is not one of many rational outlooks on life, it’s a problem in your head.
"If you are male and you have a tiny penis...it’s perfectly rational to be distressed."
Exactly right. Uh, from what I hear anyway.
"Do you think being distressed that you’re shorter than most makes one abnormal? How about your hair color or body? Or the size or shape of your nose?"
Yes, it's abnormal.
Now it's perfectly normal to occasionally wish you were taller, or had a different hair color, or were a boy or girl or whatever.
But given the level of distress I'm given to understand is occurring in these scenarios, then such distress is abnormal.
OTOH, if "not being cis" is comparable to just the normal short kid who wishes to be taller, then I think we're overreacting.
"Yes, it's abnormal."
Depends on the extent of the deviation, I suppose. Once you're far enough outside the normal range, you run into some significant problems, like not being able to buy clothing that fits off the rack.
Why do so many people object to teaching kids that it's normal for people to not be distressed by their body parts?
I think this discussion gets fucked up by a false dichotomy between normal / abnormal. It's a terrible framing that really sucks. For example, should we persecute lefties for being abnormal? It's certainly not normal to be left-handed.
Except for a bit of difficulty using scissors, though, it's not particularly dysfunctional, though.
But we accomodate them with left-handed scissors. We don't try to turn them "normal" by forcing them to use their right hand (anymore). We treat left-handedness as "normal" even though it isn't. That's the false dichotomy.
Rather than normal / abnormal, really there are at least four categories.
1. Typical / standard. Right-handed people.
2. Conditions not requiring treatment. Left-handed people.
3. Conditions where treatment is indicated. Six-fingered people.
4. Conditions where treatment is necessary. Siamese twins joined at the wrists.
Which ones are "normal?" In some sense, only the first case is truly normal. But you could think of all of them as normal in that they're well-understood human conditions, in the way that it's normal to get chicken pox as a kid. Or you could draw the line anywhere in-between.
Gay people fall in category two, and trans people in category three. We don't tell six-fingered people to suck up their treatable abnormality, we cut off a finger. After treatment, we certainly don't insist on continuing to refer to them as mentally ill six-fingered people, even though they genetically are.
No analysis of five-fingered people who think they really should have four fingers?
No. Also not of people who think they're some heretofore unknown alien gender.
"We don't tell six-fingered people to suck up their treatable abnormality, we cut off a finger."
That is, in fact, a really terrible example, because, while most of the time the extra digit is pretty useless, there are people with extra functional digits, and they're actually more dexterous than the norm.
Why does that make it a terrible example? It makes it a great example!
a) People still want to cut off their extra "abnormal" finger, understandably, even though it might in some sense be an advantage
b) There are advantages to being gay / trans too. It's not entirely a curse.
I can conceive of some possible advantages to being gay but I'm struggling with trans. Illustrate your case.
You can't think of any advantages to being one gender physically but the other gender psychologically? At a minimum, it makes it easier to pass as either gender.
I'm going to award you a point for a good try, but I'm not convinced.
If you're a "transwoman" I can see that your transery might assist you in passing for a woman. But there is such a thing as acting, and it's hard to see that feeling that you're a woman necessarily helps you present like one - unless you spend a lot of time practising. But that applies to acting too.
And to the extent that a transwoman can improve her game as a "woman" by lotsa practice, "she" is missing out on her male game practice. So what you gain on yout gal game , if you do so gain, you lose on your guy game. Methinks.
However I'm still going to award you a point.
PS why did you say "one gender physically" ? I am aware of some of your eccentricities on the usage of words in this area, but one of my hobbies is to try to arrange them in some kind of logical pattern.
I thought we kill them. For revenge.
“Dysfunctional” might mean many things; would being more likely to be injured or killed through accident be considered dysfunctional?
“Self-reported injuries among left-handed and right-handed people were compared in a survey of 1,896 college students in British Columbia, Canada. Left-handers were more likely to report having an injury requiring medical attention during the last two years (OR = 1.89, 95% CI = 1.39, 2.58). Relative risk was highest for left-handed males when driving motor vehicles (OR = 2.35, CI = 1.25, 4.43). Regardless of handedness, males had slightly higher relative risks of injury than females.”
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1349905
It is the stupid and vile and immoral misuse of words that Plato decried.
Pieper, Josef. Abuse of Language, Abuse of Power. Ignatius Press, 1992.
" Pieper opens with an account of the ancient contest between Plato and the Sophists. The purpose here is twofold: on the one hand, Pieper helps us see that corrupted civic discourse is a perennial problem: “The case can be made that Plato recognized, identified, and battled in the sophistry of his time a danger and a threat besetting the pursuits of the human mind and the life of a society in any era.” The other reason Pieper emphasizes Plato’s thought is his unique and probing insights into the depth and magnitude of the sophistic threat. Plato saw two ways in which the Sophist undermines society and the common good. The first is their “way of cultivating the word with exceptional awareness of linguistic nuances and utmost formal intelligence, from their way of pushing and perfecting the employment of verbal constructions to crafty limits, thereby—and precisely in this—corrupting the meaning and dignity of the very same words.”"
As far as I'm aware, Supreme Court has never held that children's constitutional rights are dependent on parental consent.
Children have constitutional rights to speech. To provide and receive information. To practice religion, even if that is not the same one as the parents'. And of course, they have the right to become an atheist.
Parents, of course, are not state actors by default. Parents do frequently restrain children's freedom. However, that doesn't mean that they get to invoke the Government's authority to limit the First Amendment.
But the Court HAS held that parents exercise the children's rights in their stead while they are minors.
"Children have constitutional rights to speech. To provide and receive information. To practice religion, even if that is not the same one as the parents'. And of course, they have the right to become an atheist."
I think you will find that minors, in fact, do not legally possess any of those rights against their parents.
Of course not, as I stated parents are not state actors. That doesn't mean that the judicial branch (and public schools) are not state actors. Parents are free to make rules at home, attend school board hearings, and voice their opposition. They, however, should not be able to invoke Governmental authority - the judicial branch - for the purpose of limiting children's 1A rights.
I assume that by "parents exercise the children's rights in their stead" you mean that parents file suit on behalf of children. That's also true, but I doubt they are doing that when they're invoking parental rights. The party alleging injury is the parent, not the children represented by the parent.
"Children have constitutional rights to speech. To provide and receive information. To practice religion, even if that is not the same one as the parents'. And of course, they have the right to become an atheist."
To what extent, if any, should children who are unwilling listeners have the right to decline to hear speech that they don't want to hear?
It is well established that prayer in school is illegal and violates the religious rights of the students. That is an example of a right to decline to hear speech.
But much more significantly, it is an example of a state establishment of religion. The speech aspect is secondary, at best.
Well obviously it isn't, since that's not what "establishment" means.
But you are correct that the courts have pretended that that's what it means, which is good enough for government work.
Well, I'm sure they can do that without filing a complaint in a federal court.
But SCOTUS has long history of just such a stance, that children's constitutional rights depend on parental consent !!!
There are scores of rights adults have that children do not, from voting , guns, alcohol, driving, etc.
Nor do they have constitution rights to speech. Schools are still legally in loco parentis and a child cursing or using foul language in violation of either parents or school, has no standing to challenge. In some schools there are even dress laws.
And totllay fallacious, your alst line. IT IS THE GOVT THAT HAS TO INVOKE THAT AUTHORITY, PARENTS HAVE IT INITIALLY AND UNRESTRICTED.
It would be completely unworkable for schools to cater to every parent opting their kids out of whatever lesson they want.
Also, I don't see how a child learning that LGBT people exist violates the parent's rights.
Also I would say the parents have no standing since they are not the ones getting the lesson or reading the book. One has a right to religious liberty, not a right to impose their beliefs on others, even their children. The parents are free to teach what they want at home.
"Also, I don't see how a child learning that LGBT people exist violates the parent's rights."
It's not like the school is proposing to have the Principal fire up the PA system, say, "Ahem. "LGBT people exist." That is all." and then everybody goes back to what they were doing.
"Respondent Montgomery County Board of Education requires elementary school teachers to read their students storybooks celebrating gender transitions, Pride parades, and same-sex playground romance. The storybooks were chosen to disrupt "cisnormativity" and "either/or thinking" among students. "
That goes a hell of a lot further than "LGBT people exist".
Oh no! LGBT people can be happy also. That is an awful thing to teach children. Poor bigots just can’t catch a break.
Teaching kids that they need to cut their genitals off to be happy is a truly awful thing to teach children.
I doubt that is what they are teaching. But I am glad you are happy being castrated.
Well, they're allowed to be happy, anyway. Suicide statistics cast a bit of doubt on whether they "can" be happy.
But teaching that they should be celebrated is certainly a different thing from teaching that they "exist".
Cool story Brett.
Now do those pesky blacks and the audacity of celebrating their history, accomplishments, and participation in society.
It’s the same story.
Teaching about the history, accomplishments and participation in society of pesky blacks, or pesky women, or pesky gays cannot honestly be described as no more than children learning that black people etc “exist.”
Brett is merely pointing out that Molly is telling porkies.
It’s precisely the lying about what is actually being taught, and as in this School District’s case refusing to be open about what they’re teaching that leads people reasonably to infer “Groomers.”
Okay Molly , but that is a straw man. We know (and you do too) that they are not learing reading, writing, and rithmetic even if they are learing about homosexuals.
So here you are using words like ';unworkable" as if it is currently working !!! UTTERLY CLUELESS you are. and you use the word 'impose' in a way no court would accept. The right of parents to bring their children up in their religious faith is inviolable.
Molly, don't have children if you are going to make bigots of them.
For the record, Adler only quotes from the petitioner’s brief. The respondent says the books are not being used to teach gender ideology but rather are included in a language arts program where students can individually browse and read, sometimes are read to, etc., and then asked questions about the stories from that perspective. The initial link to ScotusBlog has the Respondent’s brief for those interested.
Fact are not relevant to the court
And I think you hit on a point. The entire discussion hinges on what is actually being discussed. If we are talking assigning explicit graphic novels with scenes that would get you arrested if the drawings were photographs assigned to 6th graders, then that is one thing. If it's "minority characters are in this story" then it's another.
The thing is both extremes have occurred in this debate as well as a wide range in between, and it is frustrating that both sides ignore that one of these is clearly acceptable, the other is not, and they refuse to go into detail about what is actually being taught so we can make intelligent decisions.
This has led to apples and oranges discussions even in this thread. What is the actual content being discussed? Is it just that the character has two dads, is it instructions on how to use Grinder, or is it telling kids they are bad people if they vote for one political party? Because I've seen all three.
I am confused by the question presented. Is this a case about parental rights, Free Exercise rights, or the intersection of the two?
If it's only parental rights, a secular objection should have as much sway as a religious objection. If it's only Free Exercise, is the Court going to use this vehicle to reverse or trim Smith (*)?
(*) The decision below did not reach what level of scrutiny applies because it held the instructions did not substantially burden anyone's religious exercise.
My sympathies are with the parents.
But I hope they lose.
The curriculum is the curriculum. If a school wants to teach that “eunuch” and “tree” are genders and that doctors “guess” a baby’s sex at birth, that’s the school’s prerogative.
I don’t think religious exemptions are workable. You don’t like what the school teaches, pull your kid out.
Exactly, this isn't a manageable exercise like exempting conscientious pacifists from military service. Such exemptions can be granted easily with no damage to the petty government interests which support the draft.
We're talking about interfering with a school curriculum, not some minor issue of war and peace.
I don’t think that comparison holds up because a religious objector seeks to opt out of service completely which is not analogous to the relief these parents seek. They want to send their kids to public school. They just don’t want them exposed to specific parts of the curriculum the parents disagree with.
A closer analogy would be a soldier who wanted to serve but also wanted to opt out of specific duties based on his religious beliefs. That’s not an area of law I’m familiar with. My guess would be that our military chooses to grant various religious accommodations but a soldier’s ability to demand them as a matter of right probably ranges from ‘very limited’ to ‘nonexistent.’
Have you seen the Desmond Doss movie? He, like many other draftees, was classified I-A-O, wore the uniform, but as a conscientious objector. He wasn't assigned only to noncombatant roles - in his case and others that meant medic.
He *was* assigned only to concombatant roles. Legally he couldn't be sent into combat. They expected to enforce that on a soldier in the middle of a war.
But curricular decisions are too complicated for courts to review.
I liked Hacksaw Ridge. But I’m pretty partial to WWII stuff in general.
In fact, law is quite clear that conscientious objection to military service is (was, since there's no draft) allowed, but only if one is a pacifist — that is, one objects to all wars. One was not permitted to conscientiously object only to a specific war.
The analogy was to *opt*[ing] out of specific duties," not to the content of their antiwar convictions.
(The Supreme Court has traditionally let Congress draft COs, with exemptions, and the nature of these exemptions, being a matter of legislative grace. I'm not sure I agree with that, but in any case it's administrative workability which I'm talking about here, not unconstitutionality. Congress at least thought that, as to the uniformed soldiers it exempted, there could be a distinction as to which duties they could legally do. And their duties could not legally include combat.)
Also, CO discharges still, IIRC, exist in the volunteer military though it would mean proving to your superiors that you were gung-ho when you signed up but became pacifist afterwards.
Except they are being told they are evil if they attempt to change the curriculum. They are being told they are evil if they want to exempt the curriculum. Even if this is done via the political system whose entire point is to have the government's actions controlled by the people
"Shut up and sit down" is not a valid argument.
Absolutely not. and the law is dead set against it.
That lawyers might not know this indicts the shitty legal education you can't escape unless you are a HIllsdale or Grove City or Claremont student.
NOtice, readers, when REASON wants to skew a topic it adds 'religious'
Can a School Require Students to Learn ..... Over Parents' RELIGIOUS Objection?
Now on every other kind of issue REASON leaves out 'religious"
Can schools force choices of clothing over
parents objections?
Now our Founders rejected TOTALLY the hearing or barring of any question by that means.
The case is about parent's religious rights. Reason did not add that.
This isn't "REASON". This is Volokh.
Are you a bit lost?
This is obviously not a civil liberties issue, otherwise the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) would be supporting the parents. But the ACLU supports the school district because this is obviously constitutional, despite the claims of bigoted Christians like Tamer Mahmoud.
As the ACLU explains, the school district initially let parents opt out, but "by March 2023 the growing number of opt-out requests became unmanageable and undermined the schools’ educational obligations toward inclusion, equity, and respect. [Therefore, the school authorities] informed parents that opt-outs would no longer be permitted in the new school year." How can you enforce an unpopular policy on people's children if the parents are given a veto? That would defeat the purpose, duh!
The ACLU summarizes: "Our amicus brief agrees with the district court’s conclusion that the parents have not established a cognizable burden on their religious exercise. We also argue that even if the parents had established a burden, MCPS’s policy prohibiting opt-outs from the English curriculum is a neutral law of general applicability and subject only to rational-basis review, not strict scrutiny—a test the policy easily satisfies."
https://www.aclu.org/cases/tamer-mahmoud-v-monifa-mcknight
Right-wing bigots might pounce on the fact that, back in 1993,
"A large coalition of religious and civil liberties groups, including the ACLU, rallied Congress to pass a law prohibiting the government from enforcing a law that "substantially burdens" religious exercises without first demonstrating a "compelling" need to so and without using the "least restrictive means" possible. The law was enacted by an overwhelming majority of Congress."
The ACLU actually tried to support this law in court, but thankfully the federal law was struck down so that religious consciences could more easily be overridden.
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/supreme-court-nixes-religious-freedom-restoration-act-aclu-says-decision-erodes-first
Some might say the ACLU is being inconsistent by supporting the Religious Freedom Restoration Act back then and today wanting to eviscerate the Act's principles. But the group's change of heart on religious freedom is fully justified.
You see, back in 1993, religious freedom was needed to protect cool minority religions like Native Americans taking peyote sacramentally. But today we know that religious freedom is something sinister invoked by patriarchal, sexist, cisnormative religions to oppress LGBTs, therefore religious freedom now needs to be limited.
I'm glad the ACLU has accepted the wisdom of Antonin Scalia that federal courts shouldn't be micromanaging religious-freedom cases.
This is an example of the best ideas of Right and Left de facto merging into one loving undifferentiated blob of gender ideology.
I always wondered how, under contemporary ideology, schools will continue to justify preferring certain typograpy patterns over others on grounds that some typographical patterns have more “meaning” than others. It can’t be long before a movement swells against typographical normativity, and students are freed to work out their own preferred symbols and meaninngs rather than being forced to accept socially mandated normative ones. How long will it be before the idea that ones grade in school should in any way depend on the typographical symbols one chooses to use to express oneself or how one chooses to assemble or pattern them in self-expression becomes recognized as extreme oppression, an unimaginably abusive tyrrany against the individual based a tyrannical and long-discarded notion that people have to have certain behavioral norms in common and accept certain principles of behavior to be able to understand each other or function in a society together.
Under current ideology, feral human beings ought to be demi-gods compared to the rest of us. Having lived lives entirely free from society and its constraints, they ought to exemplify the highest form of human achievement and self-actualization possible, the acme of human perfection, the supremum of what human beings are capable of if only given the freedom to find and express their identity in their own way. They ought to super-achievers, leaders, supremely self-assured, people completely at peace with themselves.
Are they?
Then perhaps there is something wrong with the ideology.
I think the parents are entitled to opt out. Yoder is still good law after Smith, and it applies. Religions whose adherents are capable of functioning in society are entitled to relgious exemptions. The Yoder court defined being able to function as being reasonably law-abiding and capable of being self-supporting economically.
The standard has teeth. There are religions and religious leaders whose adherents have been demonstrably unable to support themselves or have turned to crime sufficiently often that under the Yoder standard, they would not be entitled to the exemption.
But this particular material is in no way essential under the Yoder standard. There is no reason to think that children who learn how to read and write and think about books using a different bibliography rather than this one won’t turn out to be as capable of refraining from crime and supporting themselves as anyone else.
Yoder said that parents could (after a certain age) opt their kids out of school, not out of specific classes.
True that. But I’m curious what reason you can come up with why the greater shouldn’t imply the lesser.
It's easier to see that the greater substantially burdens religious exercise because home schooling can be a religious requirement. Ditto for home schooling on a particular topic.
But in this case, the objection is to being taught a particular viewpoint. To be sure, that viewpoint is contrary to the parent's religious beliefs and requiring conduct consistent with that viewpoint would substantially burden religion. But, is merely being taught the viewpoint honestly forbidden by their religion when home schooling is not a religious requirement?
But thanks for bringing up Yoder. In Smith, the Court distinguished Yoder because it involved both Free Exercise and parental rights. The Court has not since dealt with these so-called hybrid-rights cases that might subject a neutral and generally applicable law to strict scrutiny. Perhaps they will now.
The greater frequently doesn't imply the lesser. There are some places where government can ban all demonstrations, but it cannot ban demonstrations about a particular topic in those places. I can refuse to be a government employee because I don't feel like it, but I can't be a government employee and then refuse to do particular tasks because I don't feel like it. To stick with schools: as a student I can choose not to sign up for a French elective, but I can't sign up and then choose not to take French quizzes.
As discussed above, it's not practicable for teachers to accommodate a classroom full of individualized preferences. "Steve's parents don't want him learning about the French Revolution. Bobby's parents don't want mentions of gay people. Johnny's parents think that hearing about civil rights makes them sad. I'd better check which topics are in the chapter of the book we're discussing today."
I’d kinda expect the teacher to know already whether today’s book gets into the French Revolution, civil rights or has gay folk in it.
But I agree with your point. Actually navigating your way past all these individualised no-nos is going to end up with a pretty short lesson.
Unless it’s algebra. Although virtually everybody has strong objections to algebra, the objections are not religious.
Maybe schools should teach nothing but algebra ! Yikes !
Not being able to avail your family of free public school could count as a religious burden. Homeschool is a burden. Tuition is a burden.
Homeschool is no more a burden than home cooking. It is the natural state of things.
Public schools are a benefit. (Or so some argue.) The taxes to fund them are a burden, of course.
Public schools are a benefit.
You think it's fine to require religious people to simply opt out of benefits when any small aspect infringes their religious beliefs? Where was this suck-it-up attitude during Carson v Makin?
I would guess all the fooks on here that are against the parents opting out are Obama fans.
Well The Obamas shelled out roughly $38,000 per year to send their daughters, Malia and Sasha, to a private high school in Washington, DC. For Graamar school it was Sidwell Friends costs about $40,000 a year. "
Sp who's the hypocrite here
"The education situation in Obama's home base of Chicago is one of the worst in the nation for the children — and one of the best for the unionized teachers.
Fewer than one-third of Chicago's high-school juniors meet the statewide standards on tests. Only 6 percent of the youngsters who enter Chicago high schools become college graduates by the time they are 25 years old.
The problem is not money: Chicago spends more than $10,000 per student."
I am going to add this all up and say: Clearly the parents protesting are in the right until the schools are acutally doing that minimum they are supposed to be doing. At that point, maybe the parents' claims are contestable. But if you are not teaching my child reading ,writing and math skills you can take your gay perverted sht and burn it.