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Kagan's Play in Skrmetti: Find that the Tennessee Law Imposes a Valid "Quasi-Suspect" Classification on Transgender People under Cleburne
And Justice Kagan will try to persuade Justices Gorsuch and Barrett to concur in the judgment, creating a 4-3-2 split.
I've just finished listening to the 2.5 hour oral argument in Skrmetti. A majority of the Court seems prepared to uphold the Tennessee law. There may even be seven votes for that outcome. But as always, Justice Kagan is in the middle, trying to broker a compromise that preserves future challenges for transgender litigants.
I do not have the transcript yet, so this post will based on my best recollection. I'll post from the transcript later.
Solicitor General Prelogar argued that the Tennessee law imposes a sex-based classification. But Justice Kagan pushed her former law clerk whether the law imposed a different type of a classification--on the "status" of being transgender. I immediately thought of Cleburne and Romer, which both imposed some sort of quasi-suspect classification that was subject to Rational Basis "Plus Bite" scrutiny. Here is how Randy and I describe these precedents in 100 Cases:
Nevertheless, in two Equal Protection Clause cases the Supreme Court took a different approach. In City of Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, Inc. (1985) and Romer v. Evans (1996), the Court applied what is sometimes called heightened rational basis scrutiny, even though the classifications at issue were not suspect or quasi- suspect. In these atypical cases, the Court returned — at least temporarily — to the type of rationality review articulated in Carolene Products. . . .
In Cleburne and Romer — two Equal Protection Clause cases — the Court employed heightened rational basis scrutiny despite the absence of a suspect or quasi- suspect class. The Court would use a similar approach in Lawrence v. Texas (2003). This case overruled Bowers, and held that Texas's criminal prohibition on sodomy violated the Due Process Clause. Critically, the Court did not hold that the sodomy ban violated a "fundamental" right. Instead, the majority still reviewed the Texas law with heightened rational basis scrutiny.
Both of those precedents have fallen by the wayside after Obergefell, but they were never overruled. And for a time, Justice Kennedy really believed this was the way to resolve gay rights cases. Prelogar did not take the bait and suggest that transgender status should be a quasi-suspect class. I don't know if she didn't see it, or the government refused to take that position.
But you know who did pick up on Kagan's question? Justice Barrett. She asked the Solicitor General about a quasi-suspect classification under Cleburne. She asked about whether there was a history of de jure discrimination against transgender people. She asked about Arlington Heights. Barrett was 100% locked in on this issue. Justice Alito also picked up on this line of questioning as well.
Matt Rice, the Tennessee Solicitor General, forcefully pushed back against this argument. He said that the Court has effectively abandoned those cases. (Randy and I have debated whether to remove Cleburne and Romer from our casebook.) Moreover, Rice argued that deciding whether a classification is quasi-suspect was unprincipled. For example, trying to decide whether a particular group lacks political power is not subject to any meaningful judicial guardrails. This was the sort of jurisprudence that was prominent in the 1970s and 1980s, but not in the modern era. Schuette v. BAMN (2014) buried that approach. Moreover, Rice noted that any argument based on Arlington Heights, which Barrett asked about, was waived in this case. In any event, there is no argument made that there is the sort of invidious discrimination, or what Justice Kennedy would have called "animus," that was found in Romer.
Kagan's play is transparent. She will vote to uphold the Tennessee law, but say that rather than applying rational basis scrutiny, the Court should recognize transgender people as a quasi-suspect class, or some other type of class, and laws discriminating against transgender people are reviewed with rational basis "plus bite." Prior to Obergefell, this was the roadmap for gay and lesbian discrimination. Kagan will say this Tennessee law survives that deferential standard, as would bans on transgender athletes, but lower federal courts will then have cover to halt all other laws that avoid those third rails. You can see how she would pitch this to Justices Barrett and Kavanaugh. We know from Jodi Kantor's reporting that Justice Kagan tried to broker deals in the Trump immunity case, but the conservatives were not interested. Kagan is trying, once again, to broke a deal. Her ideal would be a 4-3-2 split, or even a 3-3-3 split. Tennessee prevails, but no majority opinion establishes the standard of review, giving a green light to lower courts to police transgender laws. And the liberals defensively deny cert on all trans cases for the rest of time.
Justice Barrett did ask about the quasi-suspect class, but seemed very skeptical of the Arlington Heights issue. What about Justice Gorsuch? He did not say a word. Not a peep. He skipped each of the seriatim round. Shortly after the election, I wrote that the Trump administration would closely scrutinize Gorsuch's questions to determine whether or not to try to take Skrmetti off the docket.
The case will be argued in December. I'm sure all eyes will be on Justice Gorsuch to see what he does. We remember the fallout from Gorsuch's questions in Bostock.
Gorsuch gave us nothing to go on. He said nothing. Will he go along with Justice Kagan's gambit? Let's see what the Wall Street Journal Editorial page says.
Even if Justice Gorsuch joins Kagan, I still think there are five votes to review the law with the rational basis test. Justice Barrett may concur and say that the parental rights issue was not raised here, so it is not before the Court. Of course, after many relists, the Court (and Barrett) took no action on the ACLU's petition, which squarely raised the substantive due process issue. [Update: I wrote that this petition was denied, but it was not; it remains pending.] But the Court has full control over its docket. Chief Justice Roberts was talking about deference in a fast-moving area with uncertainty. He was invoking his South Bay standard. He will be happy to stand by his precedent there. Then again, we know that Justice Gorsuch vigorously dissented in South Bay. Justice Sotomayor brought this up. She even pointed to Gorsuch and said "my colleague to the right." He said nothing. Gorsuch also did not joint the dissents from denial of cert in Tingley, Edmo, Grimm, or Kincaid. He has been silent on transgender cases since Bostock.
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"Justice Kagan is in the middle"
Her view is hardly in the "middle", its using precedent dishonestly to advance radical views. Pettifoggery in service of evil.
If this court adopts it, the justices are going to be shocked at the views of the next Trump batch of federal appointments, its will be the end of the Federalist Society judge selection project.
Middle is, of course, a relative term. Here it's meant to refer to what was in play at this hearing and case.
Yes, pettifoggery
You seem to be operating on a bad definition of pettifoggery. The relativeness of middle is fundamental.
The supreme court reads the election returns....
And if Blackman can see the leftists denying cert on all future cases, don't you think that the justices might too?
I think this will go 4-2-3, with the effect being 6-3. Lord knows what the "Wise Latina" and Brown Jackson will come up with and that has been known to break up a coalition.
As noted below
KJB acted as a cheerleader for overturning the Tennessee law. not much if any legal substance to her questioning
"I think this will go 4-2-3, with the effect being 6-3."
If the Tennessee statute is upheld, and the reasoning is 4-2-3, it will matter hugely whether the two justices concur with the four or concur only in the judgment. When a fragmented Court decides a case and no single rationale explaining the result enjoys the assent of five Justices, the holding of the Court may be viewed as that position taken by those members who concurred in the judgments on the narrowest grounds. Marks v. United States, 430 U.S. 188, 193 (1977).
If four justices uphold the statute applying rational basis analysis and two justices concur in result, opining that transgender status is a quasi-suspect classification but the statute nonetheless survives heightened scrutiny, the latter will be the holding of the Court under Marks, and federal courts will be obliged to apply heightened scrutiny to transgender classification going forward.
Could be. Or, could it be that the "narrowest grounds" are that bans against minors receiving puberty blockers for gender dysphoria satisfy intermediate scrutiny without any conclusion on what level of scrutiny applies? To reach the conclusion that heightened scrutiny applies going forward, you would have to include the 3 dissenters with the 2 concurring in the judgment. Does Marks permit that?
"To reach the conclusion that heightened scrutiny applies going forward, you would have to include the 3 dissenters with the 2 concurring in the judgment. Does Marks permit that?"
The point of Marks is to give effect to "that position taken by those members who concurred in the judgments on the narrowest grounds" as the holding of the Court. The dissents, by definition, are irrelevant. It matters not whether the dissenters agree or disagree with the justice(s) concurring in the judgment.
OK. So, could it be that the "narrowest grounds" is the Tennessee law satsifies intermediate scrutiny rather than intermediate scrutiny applies in this or any other case of discrimination on the basis of gender identity.
No, the standard of equal protection review is a highly contested issue in this case. The District Court applied heightened scrutiny, and a divided panel of the Court of Appeals reversed, applying rational basis analysis. Whatever the Supreme Court holds as to the standard of review of state statutes that discriminate based on transgender status will become binding precedent on lower federal courts and state courts. It's not a "good for this ride only" issue.
You misunderstood my comment.
I am accepting the hypothetical that the result is 4-2-3 in favor of Tennessee. The 4 apply rational-basis review and the 2 intermediate scrutiny. You claimed that means intermediate scrutiny is binding precedent for discrimination on the basis of gender identity going forward because of Marks. I am skeptical of this conclusion because of the meaning of "narrowest gorunds."
Are you suggesting that rational basis analysis is narrower grounds than the heightened scrutiny applied by the District Court? That doesn't make sense. A law survives rational basis review so long as there is "any reasonably conceivable state of facts that could provide a rational basis for the classification." Federal Communications Commission v. Beach Communications, Inc., 508 U.S. 307, 313 (1993).
That is a whale of a lot broader than requiring that a challenged law be supported by an "exceedingly persuasive justification" and that the government must show "at least that the challenged classification serves important governmental objectives and that the discriminatory means employed are substantially related to the achievement of those objectives." United States v. Virginia, 518 U.S. 515, 533 (1996) (internal quotation marks omitted).
I agree intermediate scrutiny is a narrower basis for upholding the law.
But let's say there are 4 votes to uphold the law and rational basis review applies, 1 vote to uphold the law and intermediate scrutiny applies, and 4 votes to strike down the law and rational basis review applies. The Marks rule as you described it would result in intermediate scrutiny applying even though that was rejected 8-1. That makes no sense to me and that's why I said for intermediate scrutiny to be binding precedent you might need 5 votes for that proposition even if it includes some dissenters.
There has been a 4-1-4 case where the 1 was rejected by the other 8 and yet some courts have held it as binding precedent while others have not. SCOTUS has never resolved the circuit split.
Take a look at Triplett Grille, Inc. v. City of Akron, 40 F.3d 129, 133-135 (6th Cir. 1994), wherein the Sixth Circuit applying Marks explains how Justice Souter's concurrence in the judgment in Barnes v. Glen Theatre, Inc., 501 U.S. 560 (1991), sets forth the narrowest grounds for upholding the Indiana statute and thus is the controlling precedent, despite no other justice having agreed with Souter's reasoning.
That's one case. The one I linked to above (Freeman v. United States) was followed by Hughes v. United States in which the Court recognized that there was a circuit split on to apply Marks in Freeman. Most circuits held that Sotomayor's lone concurrence in the judgment was binding precedent. But, the DC and 9th circuits found no controlling opinion. SCOTUS punted the issue (deciding the case without relying on Freeman).
The issue remains unresolved.
I'm don't think the quasi-suspect or "animus" framing makes much sense, while I don't dispute that sodomy laws were motivated because of societal disapproval of same sex relationships, I don't think there is much dispute, except perhaps at the fringes, that this legislation is motivated by a sincere concern about the well being of children. Children that while they may be gender confused at the instant, there is substantial likelihood that as natural hormones, and maturity kick in that the gender confusion resolves without life altering surgery with lifetime complications, and not unoften profound regrets.
Kazinski : "I don't think there is much dispute, except perhaps at the fringes, that this legislation is motivated by a sincere concern about the well being of children"
Wow. Talk about your closed blinkered worldview! In 2024, over six-hundred anti-trans bill were proposed at various level of government. In sum numbers, this was the fifth consecutive record-breaking year. They covered everything from toilet access (for adults - sound familiar?), to university curriculum, to marriage law, to the military, to birth certificates and the performing arts.
And this circle-jerk of hate targeted a little group of people who've done remarkably little harm for all the massive venomous rage visited on their small numbers. But it was their turn to be the Right's next Other. They're just the new group in the crosshairs. They're only the latest target to torment so the Right's base is fully entertained.
And yet you carve a little sliver of this sadistic theater and insist it must be noble, sincere, and driven by reasonable "concern". Care to explain why that's even remotely credible?
Here's an alternate theory that lies closer to the truth : In the "good old days", your average right-wing-type could openly despise Blacks, publicly loathe Jews, sneer at women, hold Orientals in contempt, and hate faggots. They could celebrate these opinions without any fear of rebuke, knowing they'd get a slap on the back, warm smile, and friendly laugh in return. But now all that's been taken from them. Stolen from them. A basic joy ripped from their grasp, leaving a sad emptiness behind.
So, yeah, when the Right's handlers realized there was one group left they could still openly hate, there was no hesitation. No qualms and no restraint. Hundreds upon hundreds of bills followed as they celebrated this freedom to treat a whole class of people as a cat a mouse. The "good old days" had returned, at least with this tiny little group.
https://translegislation.com/
I caught parts of the audio
KJB - very much a cheerleader for overturning the Tennessee law. Could barely tell the difference between KJB and Oprah.
Alito - to Pregolar - The medical facts pregolar was citing are crap
Tennessee attorney - Very distinct medical and biological sound reasons for the different treatment for the same drugs. The distinctions based not on sex but on sound biological reasons.
Sotomayor as has been common, she gets a lot of facts wrong
likely vote
KJB, Sotomayor, Kagan vote to overturn.
Thomas and Alito - vote to keep law in place (injuction in place)
Kavanaugh & Barrett - lean to keep injuction in place
Gorsuch likely to keep injuction in place based on biological reasons along with Bostock not being applicable
Roberts - I did not hear him ask any questions, so no prediction for Roberts.
Amateur polymath caught "parts" but can opine conclusively on who sounded like Oprah and such.
Malika 5 minutes ago
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Amateur polymath caught "parts" but can opine conclusively on who sounded like Oprah and such.
Malika
- go listen to the audio - KJB acted like a cheerleader for Pregolar, not as an unbiased SC justice
Or "parts of it?"
For a supposed amateur polymath, you miss incredibly basic things: like that I'm making fun of you for drawing such confident conclusions after conceding you only listened to part of the oral arguments.
"KJB acted like a cheerleader for Pregolar, not as an unbiased SC justice"
And this further confirms you don't know what you're talking about: conservative justices like Alito regularly carry water for counsel (and liberal justices vice versa) when the counsel is "on their side."
Here is a post on Jackson legal analysis of the case. Not a good reflection on her legal concepts
https://pjmedia.com/matt-margolis/2024/12/04/justice-ketanji-jackson-makes-a-fool-of-herself-during-oral-arguments-n4934831
PJMedia is where dipshits go to get told what to think.
It's no surprise that you would ignorantly cite them as a source.
Is there a problem with the argument in the linked article?
To anyone with a brain, the headline gives away the problem.
I see why you and Mr. Expert would miss it.
So you have no idea? Sounds about right.
The article puts forth a straw man. It notes that the state's interests in banning interracial marriage and homrones or puberty blockers as part of gender affirming care. Well, no shit Sherlock. Jackson does not disagree.
What the article does not refute is Jackson's reasoning that interracial bans on marriage classify on the basis of race while the Tennessee law classifies on the basis of sex.
Tennessee bans certain medical procedures based on the specific harm it causes to the individual, Its not banning on their sex. Very distinct difference. Its the strawman that wants to conflate it on the "basis of sex"
Firstly, you are arguing it is incorrect to say that the law classifies on the basis of sex. That's not a claim that the sex-classification argument is a straw man.
Secondly, Tennessee is not banning hormones or puberty blockers because of their potential harms. If they did, they would not allow them to be used for other conditions.
Josh - you got it wrong again, though not surprising by those who want to conflate the issue as "based on Sex"
As Rice pointed out multiple times and as medical science points out, the puberty blockers, hormones etc can provide very positive outcomes for certain medical conditions and can provide very negative outcomes for different medical conditions. The ban is for the use for medical conditions that result in harmful medical outcomes. Again very distinct difference.
"If they did, they would not allow them to be used for other conditions."
I think you need to flesh that out a little. There are legit medical uses for cocaine, methamphetamine, fentanyl, various quite toxic chemo drugs, and so on. But their use is only allowed for specific conditions. Or try getting steroids to help get big biceps - they are legal for lots of things, but not for that purpose.
And to address "but off label use is legal", sure it is. But if your GP prescribes fentanyl for acne I think it's going to be a problem. Rightly or wrongly (if you are a hardcore libertarian) you can't even get a penicillin prescription for any reason you like. Like it or not, the government is way deep into health care decisions.
OK. But, that's a different argument than banning the procedure entirely (which is what you said at first). The counter argument is a but-for ban based on the person's sex. And thus, it is both a classification based on medical condition and sex. Whether the ban is justified based on harms that outweigh benefits for this medical condition should be part of review under heightened scrutiny.
Josh,
Not really. To repeat, TN is banning certain medical procedures based on the specific harm to the individual (given that individual's circumstances).
Let's use an analogy, female genital mutilation. The laws in place ban certain procedures. But that doesn't mean that, if for example, during a teenage child birth, there needs to be a procedure, that's banned.
It is a limitation on certain drugs and procedures for certain "conditions".
A ban on newborn female genital mutilation but not newborn male circumcision would trigger heightned scrutiny (and almost certainly pass muster).
Far more ignorant that you would throw a rant without the slightest understanding of how pathetic her legal analysis is.
You, like the expert lawyer you're relying on, seem confused. She was asking questions, not doing legal analysis.
Since you are the expert attorney - why dont you provide reason ( a coherent sound based reason - not some inane reason) that Loving is even remotely on point with a medical treatment at issue in this case.
The law at issue in Loving did not on its face treat black and white people differently. It imposed the same restrictions and punishments on blacks and whites. Some argued that it therefore did not constitute a racially discriminatory law. Nevertheless, the Court struck it down as a violation of the equal protection clause because it involved forbidden racial classifications. Some have tried to frame the debate over Tennessee's law (and similar laws) in the same way: that it does not on its face treat men and women (or boys and girls, I suppose, since the law applies to minors) differently, and therefore does not implicate equal protection. Jackson was asking about the parallel nature of those arguments and what the parties' positions were on that.
Jackson argued:
Oh come on. What in the world do you call a page-long effort to pretzel-twist the law at issue in Loving into the same general shape as the one at issue in Skrmetti if not legal analysis?
You overlooked the David Notimportant rules.
1. David is always right.
2. If David is wrong, see rule #1.
I call it exploring the legal issues and letting the advocates provide their own legal analysis, which is what judges are supposed to do at oral argument. KBJ's legal analysis will come when she drafts her dissenting opinion.
Oh, and I see ankle biter keeps biting ankles, because not smart or knowledgeable enough to discuss the topic. Or any topic, really.
OH, now I get it! She wasn't "doing legal analysis" at all -- she was just "exploring the legal issues."
Thank you for watching today's edition of Nieporent's Too-Clever Word Games.
I know it's hard for people who don't converse in good faith to believe, but sometimes judges ask questions not because they've made up their minds and are surreptitiously signaling such to observers, but because they want to hear the answers.
Correction: Amateur polymath who doesn't know the name of the justice he's discussing can opine conclusively on this justice. (This is kind of like how he demonized Sotomayor for years based on a single case whose name he continually got wrong.)
DN - so proud of finding a typo
A typo… five times in a row!
That doesnt change the validity of my criticism of her dissent arguing that a state constitutional amendment requiring compliance with 14A of the US constitution is unconstitutional.
Man, that's got to be enough for a whole week of smarmy attaboys right there! Huge congrats on your career advancement.
Crazy Dave, who wouldn't understand a separation of powers argument if it swam up and bite him on the ass probably shouldn't pontificate on any aspect of constitutional law. Or probably anything else. One has to admire the boldness of sheer crazy.
It’s three letters! If you can only get one of them right, that’s on you.
Joe_Dallas, there is no injunction in place. The District Court issued a preliminary injunction, L. W. v. Skrmetti, 679 F.Supp.3d 668 (M.D. Tenn. 2023), but a divided panel of the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed. 83 F.4th 460 (6th Cir. 2023).
Was it Kayan or Sotomayor whom the Dems were trying desperately to get to resign so that Biden could replace them before Trump took office? It would have been foolish to have pushed Keagan out. She very much appears to have over half the combined IQ points of the 3 Dem nominated Justices. This sort of shaving off support of Republican Justices is very well done, and important for a minority that can reasonably expect to be a minority for the near future, but preparing for a possible majority in the future.
It is Sotomayor due to her poor health.
From the portions of the audio that I heard, kagan came across as well informed on the legal and factual issues. Sotomayer as has been common, gets a lot of facts wrong or highly distorted.
Kagan was Dean at Harvard Law.
It's Sotomayer, who is diabetic, who could be replaced -- and this case WILL BE a litmus test for her replacement.
We may be looking at another Ginsberg situation, and this time it probably really is too late for her to retire and be replaced by Biden.
It is too late. Winter recess starts 12/20, extends through new year.
For a Supreme Court justice, the Senate Dems would work on Christmas if they had to.
Given recent SCOTUS appointment history, imagine someone saying this. Every accusation....
Listened to the oral argument: Matt Rice was outstanding, factual, convincing, persuasive. He used medical safety, drug regulation, EU countries barring transitioning for children, the science on regrets and "more harm done" so the state has the right to make the call. The three glib libs sought to create a sex discrimination argument (Jackson stuck on anti-miscegenation laws) which if accepted would be used to require acceptance of transgenders in women's sports. By the close, the Chief Justice reiterated some children will end up harmed whatever the court decides - should courts intervene?
I thought the libs wanted SCOTUS to follow EU law.....
Concur with your comments on Rice. He did very good job pointing the very distinct medical and biological reasons why the same drug for distinctly different conditions provide very different medical outcomes.
Priors confirmed!
You do understand that there's real biology going on here, don't you?
"Puberty blockers" were originally used to slow down precocious puberty so that it happened on a normal schedule. The trans advocates claimed that its safety in that application meant that it was just safe, period.
But it turned out that you can only delay puberty so long, before it simply doesn't happen, and the child has lost all chance of normal sexual development, and suffers from all sorts of side effects, like low bone density.
So, while the excuse for using them was that it would allow the patient to wait until they were older to decide which way they wanted to go, the actual effect was to guarantee that they would never, ever, be able to be a normal example of their biological sex.
It didn't allow the patient a chance to decide, it forced the decision in the direction of transgenderism.
My comment wasn't about that, it was about the tendency of people to find, of course, that the counsel that agreed with the position they wanted did a great job, and those that didn't were glib and terrible.
It's incredibly boring to just sit around and have your priors confirmed. There's no growth or challenge in that.
You do realize that in a binary decision scenario, your "priors" are going to be confirmed 50% of the time, right? Implying that a position is weak or even wrong merely because someone agreed with it is even lazier (and more boring) than what you are accusing Joe of doing.
I expect my "priors" to be confirms a lot more often than 50% of the time; I'm not choosing them at random, after all! I'm in my mid 60's, and I've had a lot of time to test and revise them.
At this point, they're actually "subsequents", not "priors".
"It's incredibly boring to just sit around and have your priors confirmed. There's no growth or challenge in that."
How did the case challenge your priors?
Out of the millions of the planet's medical conditions both physical and psychological, why do you devote most of your energies to pregnancy and sex, Brett? There's far more devastating diseases for women and the young you know.
Hobie - pathetic response to brett. "pregnancy" was not the subject of Brett's comment and sex only dealt with normal human development.
I would say it's pretty devastating for the child victims whose bodes are permanently mutilated to further the perverse trans cause.
Riva, this case does not involve "child victims whose bodes [sic] are permanently mutilated"; it is about medications which can lawfully be prescribed for some purposes but not others. The District Court found that no Plaintiff has standing at the preliminary injunction stage to challenge any ban on surgical procedures for minors. L. W. v. Skrmetti, 679 F.Supp.3d 668, 682 (M.D. Tenn. 2023).
Children undergoing treatments that can, and most likely will, adversely affect their normal development and impact them for the rest of their natural lives are certainly victims of this trans insanity. They are the ones protected under the TN law.
"The three glib libs."
::eyeroll::
Well, Jackson doesn't even know what a woman is...
She's a judge, not a biologist!
You forgot the obligatory, "Damit, Jim!"
To amplify on my "glib" comment and to add reading for those interested in the topic.
The justices relying on parental consent do not have the same experience with "parents" as most of us - who who trust a transitioning approval to other "parents"?
The justices seeking to label such children as part of an "oppressed" minority seems to ignore a simple fact: all children want to be normal. If normal, trans, fine but not oppressed. Note the standard EU protocol requires a finding of "absence of significant psychiatric comorbidity" and psychiatry would work to "normal" right. [I would include parents here]
Lastly, how could these justices read the EU studies and close their eyes?
"A series of Europe-based systematic reviews of evidence for the benefits and risks of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones have shown a low certainty of benefits. Specifically, longitudinal data collected and analyzed by public health authorities in Finland, Sweden, the Netherlands and England have concluded that the risk-benefit ratio of youth gender transition ranges from unknown to unfavorable."
"In essence, progressively the message emanating from European gender experts is that until there is reliable long-term evidence that the benefits of youth gender transition outweigh the risks, it is prudent to limit most medical interventions to rigorous clinical research settings."
European Nations Adopt A More Cautious Approach To Gender-Affirming Care Among Minors, Joshua P. Cohen Forbes June 14. 2023
Uh, parental rights are not before the Supreme Court at this time. The Tennessee and Kentucky parents who brought the case have petitioned for certiorari, but SCOTUS has not yet acted on those petitions. The Court granted the petition of the United States as Intervenor, which raised only the equal protection question.
If you're going to try and give reviews of how oral argument went adding your own partisan asides about the Justice's who don't favor the same outcome you do just shows you to be a hack.
An actual legit observer could disaggregate the quality of the Justices from the outcome they wanted. And would find their review of the performances didn't always align with their priors.
You failed on both counts. I won't relitigate your anti-trans wankery. Maybe it'll win, maybe it won't. But it sure doesn't come from a place of sober legal analysis with you!
Either take off the mask or do a better job keeping it from slipping.
I was having trouble following Justice Alito's train of thought when he asked about immutable characteristics. It was well-argued.
This is because, akin to most legislators, Alito practices medicine and you do not. We're just laymen
Is that what Rachel Levine was practicing when he successfully directed the estimable, sorry I meant execrable, World Professional Association of Transgender Health to remove all age limits from SOC 8? Or was the creep just afraid that any age limits could support state laws restricting gender-transition procedures for minors? Not really medicine at all, is it little hobie?
Good point - The activists promoting the transgender treatment such as the WPATH have active in surpressing the negative studies.
Bot compares Alito to policymakers. Thus giving the game away.
To a bot, the law is just policy by other means.
That literally makes no sense. You need a time out.
Yeah different branches having different powers has always confused you. Part of why you are so wrong when you yell about separation of power.
The Tennessee Legislature is policy makers too.
But the WPATH guidelines are supposed to be science
Dilan Esper wrote a long thread on the controversy on X:
This isn't a comment on the (controversial) merits of this issue, but having finally gotten a chance to look at Alabama's amicus brief to SCOTUS on the youth transition issue, the Solicitor General made a MASSIVE litigation mistake in relying on WPATH guidelines in its petition."
https://x.com/dilanesper/status/1848121410192805984?t=5779WjsAAKlG6ioaf68fMQ&s=19
"Seriously, a rare unforced error by Elizabeth Prelogar, probably produced because of the bubble that many folks in liberal circles live in on these issues."
Guidelines may be based on science or claim such. But if instantiated as policy, they are not science. Definitionally.
Dilan Esper is an odd on to appeal to the authority of. I mean, he may be right but I doubt it. I see why you've picked up on him - reinforcing your priors is a great way for you to decide someone's analysis is good.
This litigation is not about the law; errors like that won't matter, though - this is the big hot-button social issue of the moment. I'm not a pure legal realist, but on this kind of thing? The law is way way in the rearview mirror.
Has been for my entire lifetime, with a few swing-justice exceptions.
Anyhow, Riva wasn't talking about Tennessee, he was talking about Alito.
Because when you're partisan enough, none of it matters - policy, science, whatever - it's all good guy/bad guy tribalism and nothing else matters.
Just read through that section. I have to say it takes a good measure of ironic chutzpah to argue that transgender status is immutable but somehow gender itself is not.
Yeah, I have to. The reason is I think Justice Alito killed the government's argument with his question(s). That immutability assumption was at the heart of the government's argument.
I'm not a laywer, and I certainly have no idea what "quasi-suspect classification subject to Rational Basis Plus Bite scrutiny" means.
But if it means classifying transgender people as an oppressed group, then we have problems, because there is no official definition of being transgender. We think of people Caitlyn Jenner which seem clear cut, but what about people who claim are "gender fluid" and so a man one day, a woman the next? Or opportunists like the male prisoners who claim to be trans and are sent to women's prisons (one of them at Rikers assaulted at least 5 women, privately told them he wasn't trans, and there's currently a lawsuit over it), or people like professor Camille Paglia, who claims she is "transgender" in the sense that she has a masculine side to her, but she totally rejects todays trans movement.
At least in the UK they have some legal standard in the form of a Gender Gender Recognition Certificate, where there's a process you apply for, steps you must take, then it's granted if you meet the standard. I think it's still absurd, but at least there's SOME standard other than "I say I'm trans and so I am" like in the US.
There's lots of oppressed groups for which there is no certain standard for inclusion. Professor Bernstein has written a bit about this kind of thing. And Cleburne was in part about how a written standard was, itself, problematic iirc.
If you mean like black people, for example, at least there are some indicators other than self-identification, like appearance, being an immigrant from Africa, etc.
In the case of being trans, the Obama standard (which Biden re-instated) is that a child just needs to make an affirmative declaration that they are a certain gender. No legal change, no surgery, no hormones, no doctor diagnosis, not even parental notification is required.
Much of Bernstein's work is about how much government classification of racial/ethnic groups is based on self-identification (I mean, do you think they do, what, skin color tests and such to determine who is Black?).
There's no absolute litmus test (except maybe in the case of Native Americans). But again, self-identification is normally at least based on some observable factors. If Baron Trump claimed to be black and applied for a black scholarship, I am confident the managers of that scholarship would not accept his claim.
I think that's a fair observation, Rohan. There's a lot of subjectivity going on in this movement, and the law doesn't operate on subjectivity...unless you're Kyle Rittenhouse of course
MA RIGHTS! people arguing for increased state control of a person and against personal rights.
You are jokes and losers.
Yeah, protection of children is such a joke.
Jacobson v. Massachussetts
These people don't just step in it, they jump with both feet.
Well, Bob, I think it has been fairly proven that children are being systematically raped and abused by the Southern Baptist, FLDS, and Catholic churches and, frankly need to be gotten the fuck out of there. But yeah, no, adolescent breast augmentation is much more pressing
STRAW MAN ALERT! STRAW MAN ALERT!
When you are willing to allow parents to set their children on fire to worship the god Moloch, then come back to me.
When children want to be set on fire to worship the god Moloch, you might begin to have a point.
You're claiming that it's OK for parents to set their children on fire to worship the god Moloch if the kids say it's OK?
Dumbass.
No, that isn't what I'm saying.
Big swing and a miss from Ol' Retard and his pathetic reading comprehension once again.
Seriously, get a fucking clue, would you? I'll even Venmo you a dollar so you can buy one.
You can send the dollar to me, Jason. I run a charity house for the rehabilitation of retired political hypocrites. All Twelveinch has to do is retire and he'd qualify
Lol. You typed what you typed.
Why don't you enlighten us on how children's wants factor in on whether or not it's OK for their parents to set their children on fire to worship the god Moloch?
Dumbass.
Here's the part you somehow missed, which would give anyone who isn't you an understand that I was criticizing his analogy as being wildly off the mark, and that correcting one aspect of it doesn't improve it by much.
"...you might begin to have a point."
Not "You would be indisputably correct." Not "You would be right." Not even "You would have a point."
might begin
You are an illiterate moron yelling at someone because you're too dumb to follow along. Nobody else had that problem.
"people arguing for increased state control of a person and against personal rights."
Apedata supports FGM? Who knew?
apedad, you're still angry. It isn't healthy to stay angry.
Critically, the Court did not hold that the sodomy ban violated a "fundamental" right. Instead, the majority still reviewed the Texas law with heightened rational basis scrutiny.
"Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on ths permission of another."
Many are perfectly fine living a free life, unencumbered by fears of a non-existent god preoccupied with being a shit tempting lowly creations please give money to my self-appointed earthly servants.
Oddly, this is also the goal and process of self-appointed earthly secular servants.
Waiiiit. Maybe they're the same thing!
Self-appointed? We live in a republic.
Religion and government are not the same, but neither is a pure money extraction system.
Your reductive views do not make you special, it makes you simple.
Great comment! The Great Contribut0 Strikes Again!
I have long disagrees with the Supreme Court’s “heightened rational basis” jurisprudence, qka its animosity jurisprudence. The Supreme Court finds that the majority has anomosity against some minority and strikes down laws against them.
In doing so, the Supreme Court is doing nothing more than playing political favorites. Everybody who does something others don’t like claims it’s because the others have animosity against him. John Calhoun, who famously said abolitionists act out of pure irrational animosity against salveholders, would have felt right at home with this jurisprudence. So were the ex-Confederates who claimed the federal government sicced black people on them in order to persecute them. Same with a lot of right-wing folks today who claim that their culture is being persecuted.
It seems to me there’s a good argument the Civil Rights Act was based on animosity towards people of vocational preference. The political and judicial literature is filled with language that is, I think, fairly describable as hate language. Religious leaders like the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. called them sinners. The Supreme Court called them immoral. Judges later called them “scourges” to be eradicated. The courts used to call an interest in workplace or educational “diversity” - a euphemism for homophobia if there ever was one - compelling, with basically zero objective evidence that same-sex or same-race workplaces or schools actually perform any worse than heterosexual or hereroracial ones.
I think from the point of view of the minority of people with theze preferences, there’s a straightforward argument to be made. The majority just doesn’t like people who have preferences about the people they work with, and that’s that.
So from the point of view of minorities out of favor with the Supreme Court, the reason why they for example strike down laws based on animosity towards people who for example have preferences about the people they sleep with, but use hate language in not just upholding but heaping praise on laws based on animosity towards people who have preferences about the people they work with, is obvious. Because the Supreme Court plays favorites, that’s why. They like some people. They hate others. They use their offices to help the people they like and stick it to the people they don’t like.
It seems to me that “heightened rational basis” inevitably leads to this. There’s no objective basis for whether you happen to be on the current Supreme Court majority’s friend list, or on its shit list.
"It seems to me there’s a good argument the Civil Rights Act was based on animosity towards people of vocational preference. The political and judicial literature is filled with language that is, I think, fairly describable as hate language. Religious leaders like the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. called them sinners. The Supreme Court called them immoral. Judges later called them 'scourges' to be eradicated. The courts used to call an interest in workplace or educational 'diversity' - a euphemism for homophobia if there ever was one - compelling, with basically zero objective evidence that same-sex or same-race workplaces or schools actually perform any worse than heterosexual or hereroracial [sic] ones."
ReaderY, the cases in which SCOTUS upheld the Civil Rights Act of 1964 were not equal protection cases. The Act was upheld as a regulation of interstate commerce. Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States, 379 U.S. 241 (1964); Katzenbach v. McClung, 379 U.S. 294 (1964). Rational basis analysis of laws singling out a certain class of persons for disfavored legal status based solely on animus, such as Romer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620 (1996), is a different matter.
The effects of the 1964 CRA upon interstate commerce have been massive. Desegregation and the abolition of Jim Crow have had a huge impact on bringing the American South into the economic mainstream -- an impact rivaled only by the availability of air conditioning.
Was Masterpiece a case where this animosity concept came into play? Wasn't it Justice Kennedy who created that?
Kennedy wrote Romer, but the baker won in Masterpiece.
It is not that difficult.
Men are men.
Women are women.
Men cannot become women.
Women cannot become men.
The opinions of a guy named Ipse Dixit are not relevant to any scientific or logical arguments. Nor are they persuasive to me.
No human has ever changed their biological sex. Yet "sex changes" are supported.
Countless humans have changed their sexual orientation. Yet "orientation changes" are banned.
You people are insane.
There are four sure votes (Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Kavanaugh) to subject the law to rational-basis review. Barrett will likely go along. I'm not sure whether they will justify that result based on 1) the law classifies based on a medical condition, not sex, or 2) sex classifications concerning controversial medical opinions are not subject to heigthened scrutiny.
Well according to Affirmative Action DEI Extraordinaries, Justice Diabetes Sotomayor, lopping off a 4 year old's cock and removing a 6 year old's tits is just like taking aspirin. Which, according to DEI Justice PB&J, denying that is also akin to banning mixed raced marriages!
Goal seeking hyper partisans. It's as if not guilty's Affirmative Action lesbian twin is sitting on the SCOTUS.
JHBHBE, this case is not about surgeries; it is about medications which can lawfully be prescribed for some purposes but not others. The District Court found that no Plaintiff has standing at the preliminary injunction stage to challenge any ban on surgical procedures for minors. L. W. v. Skrmetti, 679 F.Supp.3d 668, 682 (M.D. Tenn. 2023).
It's ultimately about surgeries too. Girls as young as 12 are getting gender-affirming mastectomies. It's insane.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36248210/
That is not this case, though. Federal courts (should) decide cases or controversies based on law and evidence; they (purportedly) do not give advisory opinions on matters not before the court.
That tranny lawyer arguing before the court said on MSNBC that 2 year olds can be trans.
It's so funny watching these women put on man-face. No beard and that's a hot dyke.
How do you claim to know what is in that lawyer's pants, JHBHBE?
Huh? Can you expand your question, I don't get it.
Why am I unsurprised?
Who knows. Why didn't you clarify your comment? Is it you're finally tired of looking foolish?
Ran away like a scalded dog.
Woah, are you telling me that some medicines are prescribed for some purposes but ARE NOT prescribed for others?
What in the Holy Moly Theocracy is this? It's NAZI Germany all over again. It's a human right to have a prescription medicine be prescribed for every purpose! Save us Robert Meuller!
Well lets say that the Tennessee law is struck down.
Then Tennessee passes a strict liability law that lets under aged minors sue for treatments that elective treatments (using a definition that excludes mental harm, but allows treatment for deformities or abnormalities), and requires doctors and hospitals to post and maintain such bonds for 30 years after any such treatments to allow time for the minors to become aware of physical or mental damages from such treatment.
And of course not allow parents or caregivers to waive the minors rights for future recovery of actual and punitive damages.
That's a good point but it works both ways in the law. That minor could sue for pain and suffering for being disallowed to achieve the treatment they needed.
You know, someone wants to amputate their mangled arm but you guys rush in and say 'you cannot remove the arm that god gave you'. Do you see how personal autonomy away from warriors like yourself and legislatures can be a good thing?.....Nah, you don't see that...do you?
Read the Cass report and see what the actual status of the science is supporting adolescent trans care is.
I think there is more than adequate medical literature supporting amputating mangled limbs.
"That minor could sue for pain and suffering for being disallowed to achieve the treatment they needed."
Sue doctors that don't provide that treatment because of too much liability?
Can a woman sue her Dr. because they don't do breast implants?
You don't think the legislature could address that too?
Three legal certainties are in the balance
1)So Brown DOES know what a woman is, it's when a 'whatever' actually takes on a vagina,the possession of which naturally does not make you a woman.
2)Kagan wants all 'choices' including perversity practiced on minors to be protected because , well, it's a choice
"“The Supreme Court, of course, has the responsibility of ensuring that our government never oversteps its proper bounds or violates the rights of individuals. But the court must also recognize the limits on itself and respect the choices made by the American people.”"
3) Sotomayor , who made a disgusting comment {("every medical treatment has a risk, even taking aspirin") wants children to realze having your genitals removed is a privilege.
THREE GOD_AWFUL STUPID WOMEN OF THE ALMOST-KAMALA level
Kagan and Sotommayor have NO CHILDREN
Dr. Johanna Olson-Kennedy, a researcher funded by the federal government to study the effects of puberty blockers on transgender youth, has refused to publish her findings. Her study, which began in 2015 as part of a $9.7 million federal project on transgender health, found that the mental health of the 95 adolescents who received puberty blockers remained largely unchanged after two years. Since the study’s findings do not affirm transgender ideology, Olson-Kennedy refuses to publish the findings because they could be used to fight the use of gender-transition drugs for minors.
In Sweden, which is one of the most LGBTQ-friendly countries in the world, is the suicide rate among people who have undergone sex reassignment surgery higher than that of the general public?
Per a 2011 paper published in the journal PLoS One, a long-term population-based study of 324 sex-reassigned persons in Sweden found that their suicide rate was 19 times higher than the general population. This result has a confidence interval of 5.8 to 62.9. In 1972, Sweden became "the first country in the world to legally allow gender change," and in 1979, its National Board of Health and Welfare decided that "homosexuality is no longer a mental disorder." In 2013, the Swedish government created a webpage declaring that it is "one of the most gay-friendly countries in the world" and that the 2013 "Stockholm Pride parade had an estimated 60,000 participants and 600,000 spectators, one of several signs that LGBT people are a welcomed part of Swedish society." A widely cited 2019 paper in the American Journal of Psychiatry claimed to show that "gender-affirming surgeries" reduced suicides, but the data showed nothing of the sort, and the authors were forced to issue a correction.
ACLU's counsel conceded that studies show that "successful suicides" are unchanged after transition surgery but insists that "suicideology" is decreased.
That makes no sense unless one is claiming that this surgery somehow makes one more efficient at committing suicide.